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Revision as of 13:10, 17 October 2018 editThenightaway (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users51,791 edits →"Anti-immigration": new section← Previous edit Revision as of 13:17, 17 October 2018 edit undoPackMecEng (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,500 edits →"Anti-immigration"Next edit →
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Editors have once again tried to change anti-immigration to "anti-illegal immigration", despite the fact that cited sources explicitly refer to her as "anti-immigration" and despite the fact that Ingraham has specifically spoken out against "legal immigration". ] (]) 13:10, 17 October 2018 (UTC) Editors have once again tried to change anti-immigration to "anti-illegal immigration", despite the fact that cited sources explicitly refer to her as "anti-immigration" and despite the fact that Ingraham has specifically spoken out against "legal immigration". ] (]) 13:10, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
:The article talks about all of it in context of illegal immigration. Explaining her views, what she has said on it, and what she has done. All while explicitly in context of illegal immigration. How you get anything else is beyond me. Also really calling it bordering on vandalism? Stop the personal attack BS and focus on content. ] (]) 13:17, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

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Taping claim.

The claim that "While at Dartmouth she secretly taped meetings of the campus Gay Students Association, and sent copies to participants' parents." has been added and removed. My question is two-fold: 1) Is an op-ed piece by a guest columnist sufficiently reliable to make this claim and 2) does it even belong in the first place? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The "op-ed" comment is moot - I have added the original source for this claim (Rory O'Connor's 2008 book Shock Jocks: Hate Speech and Talk Radio, page 100, which is excerpted word-for-word on the Huffington Post)
The second comment is yes, it most certainly does belong in this article.
I've also added a comment by Jeffery Hart, who was the faculty advisor to the Dartmouth Review when she was there. (Sourced to a CNN article on Ingraham) Raul654 (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm glad you decided to actually discuss it. First, when I made the revert, the sole source was the op-ed piece. So it was a valid concern. You've sourced it with another source. But please don't dismiss it like there was no legitimate question in using an op-ed piece as the sole source for something that contentious in a BLP. I do feel there is a reasonable question of how reliable the book is. This is the only book O'Connor has written and was published by AlterNet books, which has a definate anti-conservative POV. Even our own article on Misplaced Pages calls them "a progressive/liberal activist news service" in the opening sentence. Aren't there any more mainstream sources for this?
The CNN interview is reliably sourced, but is the info reliable? CNN didn't say these things, a guy doing an interview with CNN did. There was no editorial control etc. He made the claims on their network, but you and I both know that people go on networks and say whatever they want during the interviews. That doesn't mean CNN reported it, it means they broadcast it. Essentially, this boils down to a professor telling an anecdote. Wouldn't it be prudent to try to find a more reliable source for the claim than just one guys memory? The other question I have is about the WP:UNDUE. The article already shows she was anti-homosexual at that time. This almost looks like piling on. As it stands now, we have 5 lines telling us how anti-gay she was and painting a horrible picture from 25 years ago. Yet we only give 2 lines to how 12 years later, he brother came out as gay and she softened her views. The more recent, positive event is given half as much space as the more distant past. That doesn't seem neutral to me. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, CNN and AlterNet are both reliable sources. Jeffery Hart, the Ingraham acquiescence to whom the piece is sourced, is also a reliable source. Do you have any actual evidence that any of these comments are false? Presumably, since these allegations have been reprinted in numerous places, including Time Magazine (" notorious in her student days for vilifying "sodomites" in the Dartmouth Review--and for sending a reporter to tape a Gay Students Association meeting, then naming names") if they were not true, someone would have said so at some point.
The article already shows she was anti-homosexual at that time. - given that Hart (the adviser for the paper she worked at, so presumably someone who would at least be professionally courteous to her) described her as having "the most extreme antihomosexual views imaginable" I think it's safe to say the single sentence previously in the article substantially downplayed her rabid homophobia. Raul654 (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
As it stands now, we have 5 lines telling us how anti-gay she was and painting a horrible picture from 25 years ago. - our job is not to write a hagiography or to whitewash embarrassing details of her past behavior, but to write an article that accurately portrays her. And the article now accurately reflects her behavior.
As for your claims that the behavior is old and therefore doesn't matter, or that she's changed, that is simply not the case: . She was a homophobe 25 years ago, and remains that way to the present. Raul654 (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
So she's bigoted now because she doesn't take a left-wing view of gay marriage? I don't know if you are aware that she frequently has openly gay Tammy Bruce substitute host for her radio show? Or does Tammy not qualify since she's not a gay left-winger?--Drrll (talk) 21:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but just because your bench-warmer is gay doesn't mean you aren't a homophobe. Niteshift36's argument against including verifiable reports of her past anti-gay behavior is that it's old and doesn't represent her present day attitudes. The fact that she continues to engage is such behavior blows a huge whole in his line of reasoning. In 2008, she said that transgender individuals were "killing the culture" and wondered by the parents of transgendered people "aren't embarrassed" by them. In December of that year, "she alluded that being gay is a 'bad choice'." And I could go on, but you get the idea. Raul654 (talk) 21:57, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I think you're missing my point Raul. I'm not saying that the story Hart tells is false (or that it is true). I'm saying that I don't think his say so is sufficient. Nor am I saying CNN isn't reliable. I'm stating, quite correctly, that CNN didn't report the story. They did an interview and the interviewee said it. There is a significant difference. They are simly documenting the claim, not putting anything into the veracity of it. For example, if Michael Moore goes on CNN and says "Bush is a devil worshiper", we can source that he did say that. That is not CNN saying it, it is Moore saying it. Now, Moore is notable and we can prove he said it, would it go in the bio? Most likely not (unless there was controversy over the remark) because there is no evidence of it being true, only that Moore said it. In this discussion, you're making it sound here like CNN made this claim. They did no such thing.
As for AlterNet...AlterNet books, which is separate from their news division, is an agenda publisher. That you don't see a possible neutrality problem is a problem.
You allegation of whitewashing is offensive. The additions may or may not accrately reflect her behavior at the time, but how much space needs devoted to it? We devote over twice as much time describing her older behavior during a 4 year period than we do over her more recent behavior that is less extreme and over a longer period. That's not whitewashing, it's balance. You're also forgetting something that isn't in the writing, but you might remember. Back in 1987, we didn't know as much about AIDS as we do now. It was a popular misconception that AIDS could be spread by many ways that we now know aren't true. When you take that into account, it seems a little less extreme.
My statement that she softened her stance isn't incorrect. Contrary to the views of some, being against gay marriage or gay adoption isn't "homophobic", nor does it mean you hate gays. It means you don't support marriage of or adoption by gay couples. There is a huge difference in that. Likewise, it is not my claim that she softened her stance. That is the claim of Time magazine.
Also, I'd like to know why this goes under the career section? Why is the longer, negative stuff about her views on homosexuals in the first section, but the part about her change is buried much lower in a different section.
The way you are phrasing some of these answers, and mischaracterizing mine, make me wonder if this is more agenda driven than just a desire to improve the article. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Since you seem determined to make sure that the 2 stories be included (and don't appear to care much about discussing what my actual argument is), I've taken the liberty of including a reliably sourced entry about her apologizing for the comment listed in the article and apologizing about the taping. And that gets to be with the bit about her doing these things in college, not buried at the bottom of the article. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


"I'm saying that I don't think his say so is sufficient."

It is not our job to second guess CNN. If they thought he was credible enough to run the story, then why should be think otherwise. As I said above, do you have any actual evidence that these statements are wrong, or are you simply trying to set the bar for verifiability so high that it precludes material you don't care for?
As for AlterNet...AlterNet books, which is separate from their news division, is an agenda publisher. That you don't see a possible neutrality problem is a problem. - again, this is an example of trying to set the verifiability bar insurmountably high so as to preclude material you don't like. Do you have any evidence that the claims made in O'Connor's book, and republished in numerous media venues, are wrong?
You allegation of whitewashing is offensive. - I call them like I see them.
The additions may or may not accrately reflect her behavior at the time - there's no "may" about it. They do accurately reflect her behavior at the time, as stated by reliable sources, your dissembling about said sources not withstanding.
We devote over twice as much time describing her older behavior during a 4 year period than we do over her more recent behavior that is less extreme and over a longer period. - what more recent behavior? She was named by GLAAD as one of the worst Anti-Gay defamers in 2008, 12 *after* she claims she reconciled with her brother. Maybe she's no longer trying to out people to their parents, or publicly calling them sodomites, or refusing to eat at restaurants with gay employees, but the difference in her behavior is of degree, not of kind. If you want a sentence in the article stating something to that effect, that's fine with me. But your latest edit, in which you portray her as some kind of reformed bigot ("she changed her views after witnessing"), is factually untrue. I'm going to be adding GLAAD's listing of her shortly. Raul654 (talk) 22:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Again, you mischaracterized what my position is and I don't see you changing from that tactic. As for my addition, I included what is documented. You keep making it sound like I am the one inventing the claim and that is dishonest. I would contest the inclusion of an "award" like the GLAAD pseudo-award. It is based on their opinion and their bias.
Further, I presume that you do know that BLP applies to talk pages as well, so your statement that she is a homophobe should most likely be removed. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


Again, you mischaracterized what my position is and I don't see you changing from that tactic.
Again, you have dodged by above questions about why we should consider media outlets like CNN, Time, etc, and Ingraham's own acquietence Jeffery Hart unreliable. So I'll ask for yet a third time - do you have any actual evidence that the reporting found in these sources, and that Hart's claims, are untrue?
As for my addition, I included what is documented. You keep making it sound like I am the one inventing the claim and that is dishonest. - fair enough, you didn't invent the lie. Laura Ingraham did that with that essay and her behavior since. However, you are attempting to prepetuate the lie. Just because Laura says it about herself does not mean that we have to uncritically report it as fact. GLAAD's listing of her demonstrably shows that her claims to reform are false. And that's why it belongs in.
It is based on their opinion and their bias. - of course it's an opinion. So what? That doesn't mean we cannot cite it. They represent gay people, and their opinion on who is and is not one of the worst defeamers of homosexuals is extremely relavant, especially insofar as it demolishes Ingraham's claim to reform. Raul654 (talk) 23:13, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
  • No Raul, I haven't "dodged" anything. I simply quit debating it. It's in there. Your agenda is fulfilled. But that doesn't excuse you from mischaracterizing what I actually said. That's just dishonest.

:Just because GLAAD takes a number of quotes and invents an "award" for it doesn't mean it belongs in this article. Do we included the "worst player of the week" named by a sportcaster in that athletes bio? No, because it's just some guys opinion. GLAAD can dispute her. That's fine. But making up psuedo-awards, like Media Matters does as well, just to promote an agenda is not the NPOV that should be included here. Nor am I "perpetuating a lie". I reported what was in a reliable source. I'll use your tacitc. Can you prove that Ingraham did not mean every word she said, when she said it?] (talk) 23:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Just because GLAAD takes a number of quotes and invents an "award" for it doesn't mean it belongs in this article. - her behavior vis-a-vis gays since she claims she changed her views is extremely relevant to this article. Even if we charitably assume that everything she said in 1997 is the absolute truth, her subsequent behavior show that her change wasn't quite as profound as she thought it was or that she has subsequently changed her views again. And if GLAAD, which is the premier American gay and lesbian anti-defamation group, isn't qualified to speak for gays as a whole regarding her anti-gay rhetoric, then who exactly is?
Nor am I "perpetuating a lie". - In this edit, you changed this article so that it says she stated that she changed her views after witnessing "the dignity, fidelity and courage" with which her brother and his late companion coped with AIDS. Now while everything you wrote is literally true - she did state that she had changed her views - it leaves the viewer with an extremely distorted perception of what she has actually said and done in the last 13 years or so.
I'll use your tacitc. Can you prove that Ingraham did not mean every word she said, when she said it - Prove that she was lying at the time she said it? No, that's rather hard to do without a time machine and a lie detector. Hell, she may have even been telling the truth at the time. However, her stated change of heart in 1997 is greatly at odds with her later behavior, and this article needs to make that clear. Raul654 (talk) 23:52, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Maybe you didn't notice, I struck out the part about the GLAAD thing. You're not going to let anything get in the way of your including it, so I am not going to debate it. As for "perpetuating a lie"...well, unless you can prove that she did not believe what she said, when she said it, then you're being dishonest. I've changed views on issues over the years and changed back on some. That doesn't mean I was lying when I made the first change, nor does her current view make her previous view (in her 1997 apology) a lie. People actually change their views from time to time. Sometimes more than once. That doesn't make them liars.Niteshift36 (talk) 23:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
    • That doesn't mean I was lying when I made the first change, nor does her current view make her previous view (in her 1997 apology) a lie. - Setting aside the issue of whether or not she was lying -- so you agree with me that her current views and her views at the time of her 1997 apology are two different things. Do you also agree with me that omitting her post-1997 views leaves this article's reader with a misleading impression of her opinion regarding gays? Raul654 (talk) 00:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I would agree that presenting it in a neutral manner would be fine, such as giving a neutral example or two of her current views, the way they are reported by the mainstream media. But calling her a "gay defamer" really doesn't do that. It just throws a deragatory label on her. For instance, an example or two where she said something about opposing gay marriage, adoption etc. And those examples can be found from the MSM and eliminate any "take" from GLAAD or other activists. But I think we can both agree that there is a vast difference between avoiding a restaurant with gay waiters and taking a position against a political issue like gay marriage. Opposing gay marriage, opposing gay adoption or holding the belief that homosexuality is not genetic isn't necessarily homophobia. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The statement in the wikipedia article "published the transcript including the attendees" is in direct contradiction with the NYT source which says "The Review published excerpts that included people describing their sexual experiences and talking about their sexual identities. The article named two association officials but did not identify participants in the meeting."2604:2000:DD00:3D00:F509:C995:462D:43FC (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

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Political views

There seems to be a bit of an edit war over this, so I'd like to get comment. Right now, the section "political views" contains the following statements: "In March 2018, she mocked David Hogg, a 17 year old survivor of the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, for not getting into UCLA. In February 2018, Ingraham publicly said that LeBron James should not opine on politics, noting that he should "shut up and dribble." It was not immediately clear if Ingraham was making this recommendation because LeBron James is an NBA Player or because he is African-American, as Ingraham's views on racial justice are not fully known." I've removed the second half of the last statement because it is clearly prejudicial, implying she made the statement because of racism when that is not shown. My question is whether these statements should be here at all. They don't seem to say anything about her political views, or at least, do so in a very indirect and roundabout manner. They seem to be here purely as an attack on Ingraham, factual though they may be. ThePortaller (talk) 06:57, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

If the statement about what she did or said is factual, I'm not sure how it can be seen as an "attack." Avocats (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

I think the problem was that there was no citation. I fixed that. Proscriptus (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Her mocking the Parkland student and subsequently apologizing for it isn't really part of her political views, is it? Wouldn't that be better suited for the already inclusive Controversies section?Oathed (talk) 18:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, which is where it seems to have been moved. ThePortaller (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Jenny Craig becomes the 10th advertiser to drop Laura Ingraham’s show following her attacks on Parkland survivor David Hogg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1303:CCD9:512C:A355:EB4A:EC4 (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Editing wars continue between two Wiki editors with badges. One insists that Newsmax is reliable and one does not. It is entertaining to watch the back and forth sparring when one badged editor puts it in and the other tries to say they are wrong and removes it. Yet the one that removes it says that other sources that are at least as far out from "neutral" are a reliable source. At least the two badged editors can't threaten the other with censorship ;) Mike03car (talk) 19:34, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Social Media Controversy

Recommend new section regarding her social media disparagement of the Parkland Shooting survivor and resulting criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.2.61 (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Boycott of The Ingraham Angle

 You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Boycott of The Ingraham Angle. - MrX 🖋 21:59, 5 April 2018 (UTC)Template:Z48- MrX 🖋 21:59, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2018

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add following template to External links. Twenty-one years of conversations (from 1996-2017) "in her own words" is important.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Specifically, please provide sources that demonstrate that these Charlie Rose appearances have been given significant coverage' in reliable sources to justify notability. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:48, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2018

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There is an extra blank line in the middle of the Dartmouth section that needs to be deleted. 38.74.146.126 (talk) 19:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

 Done. We'll send you a bill for $100.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

"Ridicule"

Slow form of edit-warring is taking place at this article over use of the word "ridiculed" as a descriptor. Along with another editor, I agree that use of the word is POV. Doing both a Yahoo and Google search returned only one reliable source in a news item (rather than a blog or op-ed) using the term. The other results showed unreliable sources using the term. I believe it's best to not use the term in Wiki-voice at all, to do so is not adhering to policy on NPOV or WP:RS. If many RS's used the term, we could discuss on basis of "we follow the sources", but only one has (that I can find). As it is, the content currently states, "...after she called David Hogg, a 17-year old student survivor of the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, whiny." It currently read, "after she ridiculed David Hogg, a 17-year old student survivor...". Discuss based on policy, please. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC) Pinging Mike03car as one of the editors involved; also pinging MrX as the editor who has been continually returning the content back to the POV version without attempting to discuss and has reverted it back to the POV version once again. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC) NOTE: Both versions included below with new, suggested version as well as survey on which version is preferred follows. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:52, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I literally included three source in my edit summary. Is there some other adjective besides ridiculed or mocked that you think would would preferable, and why? It seem like like we settled this months ago, but it keeps surfacing for some reason.- MrX 🖋 00:54, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Bring them here, please - rather than reverting without discussion. It probably keeps resurfacing because more than one editor recognizes the way it's written in Wiki-voice and without enough RS's to support the use of it is POV. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Have you even attempted to analyze the sources? This is not difficult. See below.- MrX 🖋 01:14, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
This is absurd. The most cursory of Google searches shows that RS that used the term "ridiculed" verbatim (not including synonyms like "mocked") include the NYT, CNN, Fortune, The Plain Dealer, Buzzfeed News, MassLive, the Daily Beast, the Huffington Post... I'm not gonna go through more search results. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:01, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
BuzzFeed, Daily Beast, MassLive, Cleveland.com/entertainment section, are not reliable sources. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:05, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
They are. You should take your complaints to the RS noticeboard. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
I disagree. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:31, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
The most cursory search for the term "mocked" shows a dozen or so different RS, including NYT, Reuters, NPR, LA Times, CBS News, CNBC, TIME, USA Today. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:11, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

"Hogg, the Parkland shooting survivor, has gone after Ingraham once again. He first led an advertising boycott against the host when she ridiculed him for getting rejected from several of the colleges to which he had applied back in April."
— Fortune

"The conservative commentator mocked the 17-year-old anti-gun activist after he revealed that he was recently rejected by four University of California campuses."
— CNBC

"Last Wednesday, Ingraham posted a mocking tweet of high school senior David Hogg, taunting him for not getting into some colleges he had applied to."
— CBS News

"Fox News host Laura Ingraham returned to the air Monday night, quipping that she is "glad that I don't have a Google alert on my own name" after a week in which several of her show's major advertisers pulled back after she mocked a Parkland school shooting survivor."
— USA Today

"The Fox News host Laura Ingraham announced on Friday that she was taking a week off following the decision of several companies to pull advertising from her show after she ridiculed a student survivor of the Parkland, Fla., school shooting."
— The New York Times

"But continuing to express mainstream thought from a decade ago is precisely the opposite of what Fox News is up to; it’s not Ingraham’s expression of views that got her boycotted, it’s her decision to express those views by mocking and deriding a high-schooler who recently survived a school shooting."
— Time

"The controversy started when Ingraham mocked Hogg on Twitter. Hogg, in turn, urged his followers on social media to contact Ingraham's advertisers."
— CNN

"The anger generated by Allman’s remarks is reminiscent of the outrage after another conservative commentator, Fox News host Laura Ingraham, mocked Hogg after it was announced the student activist did not get into some top colleges — only to face a fierce backlash from activists and advertisers."
— The Washington Post

"More recently, Bruenig has characterized “corporate boycotts”—like the decision by several large corporations to pull ads from Laura Ingraham’s Fox News show after the host ridiculed the Parkland high school activist David Hogg—as “capital strikes” in which corporations control public discourse."
— Weekly Standard.

- MrX 🖋 01:13, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Because of the reliable sources produced by MrX, I support use of either "ridiculed" or "mocked". Cullen Let's discuss it 01:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
The problem with repeating what any source says in the manner it's being repeated for content, Cullen328, is that it's POV in Wiki-voice. And that's never acceptable. Best to stick with what was actually said. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 05:08, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
No, Winkelvi, incorrect. She ridiculed and mocked the student, and many reliable sources reported on her behavior, using those same words. Are there any reliable sources that say she did not ridicule and did not mock the student? I think not. Leaving it out is whitewashing. If it was only a few sources among many, your argument might hold water. But the number of reliable sources using "ridiculed" and "mocked" is convincing. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Ridiculed and mocked is an opinion drawn, a conclusion made, by the writers of the articles. It's not fact, just biased writing. This is one of those instances where, in the interest of NPOV, Misplaced Pages editors must be more mindful of neutrality in Wiki-voice and encyclopedic tone that following sources verbatim. Following sources is great when it comes to fact, with exact verbiage in cases such as this, not so much. This is when WP:COMMONSENSE and NPOV should prevail over taking on the appearance of bias to readers so Misplaced Pages isn't leading the reader by the hand to draw a conclusion. We should let the reader decide if Ingraham was ridiculing or mocking, we shouldn't do it for them. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 13:12, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
It’s a description. We use descriptions from RS all the time. And to characterize this as biased writing sounds like biased writing. O3000 (talk) 13:24, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd just like to note that Winkelvi asked associated WikiProjects, including of course WikiProject Conservatism, for input on this (yes, seriously). Because we apparently desperately need some broader input as to whether at least eight RS that use the term "ridiculed" and a dozen or so RS that use the term "mocked" are sufficient sourcing for the terms "ridiculed"/"mocked". This is obviously a highly contentious issue of utmost importance, and solving this Gordian knot requires editors with an excellent understanding of Misplaced Pages policy, high proficiency in media literacy and apparently solid conservative credentials. Can we use a term that can be substantiated with 20+ RS? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:24, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

"I'd just like to note that Winkelvi asked associated WikiProjects, including of course WikiProject Conservatism, for input on this (yes, seriously). Yes, seriously and yes, of course. If I had only alerted WikiProject Conservatism, that would be a problem. Alerting all associated projects listed at the top of this talk page is not a problem. Nor is it against policy.
(edit conflict)"we apparently desperately need some broader input as to whether at least eight RS that use the term "ridiculed" and a dozen or so RS that use the term "mocked" are sufficient sourcing for the terms "ridiculed"/"mocked"." Why not? Misplaced Pages is a WP:Community. Issues related to writing encyclopedic, NPOV articles concern the Community as a whole, does it not? Alerting all of Misplaced Pages of the issue is impractical. Alerting projects associated with this article to get more opinions is practical and appropriate. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:30, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Unless the word “mocked” or the WP concept of RS has changed meaning in the last week, these RS look rather obviously acceptable. I would also suggest that anyone brought here by the posts to ten (10) Wikiprojects by Winkelvi identify themselves. O3000 (talk) 01:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm especially looking forward to the input by WikiProject Connecticut. This is precisely the kind of thorny issue that the WikiProject was created to resolve, and I'm sure Winkelvi alerted them to get some of the Connecticut-specific knowledge that our discussion sorely lacks at the moment. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Per the new image that has magically appeared to the right, keep in mind that the word canvass comes from the Greek κάνναβις meaning cannabis. O3000 (talk) 02:00, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
WikiProject Albemarle County discusses ridicule and mocking. Oil on WP:CANVASS

.

The use of the word "ridiculed" or "mocked" is merited given the following sources: NBC Chicago, May 29 ("Conservative Fox News host Laura Ingraham mocked Hogg on Twitter Wednesday..."), USA Today, April 2 ("Ingraham... committed a trifecta of blunders when she ridiculed Hogg for his rejections."), USA Today, March 29, 2018 ("Ingraham, who hosts a nightly show on Fox News, sought to cut him down with a tweet..."), CBS News, March 29 ("Fox News host apologizes for mocking Florida school shooting survivor..."), Fortune, March 29 ("Fox News Host Laura Ingraham Ridiculed a Parkland Student.."), CNN, March 30 ("David Hogg rejects Laura Ingraham's apology for mocking tweet"), Mother Jones, March 28 ("Conservatives Are Now Mocking David Hogg..."), Time, March 30 ("...Laura Ingraham mocked Parkland school shooting survivor David Hogg..."), Independent UK, March 31 ("Fox TV host Laura Ingraham takes week-long break after mocking Florida shooting survivor David Hogg"), CBS/WTVR, March 29 ("...Ingraham apologizes for mocking... Ingraham was denounced for ridiculing a teenager and survivor of a mass shooting."), The New York Times, March 31 ("...after she ridiculed a student survivor...") and Newsweek, March 28 ("...Ingraham Mocks Parkland Survivor David Hogg...") More of these sources use a form of the word mock than they do ridicule but there is strong support for either or both. Binksternet (talk) 01:28, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
(ec) Editors should be extremely careful about making unfounded accusations WP:NPA of canvassing especially at an article under DS where an uninvolved admin can magically appear and drop his banhammer. Wink fully complied with WP:APPNOTE which requires that only one Wikiproject be notifed. He went over and above the guideline.– Lionel 05:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Interesting you should say that, Dlthewave. The Wrap (which I don't think is a reliable source, but at least two editors commenting here have defended it as such in the past) stated the following: "Fox News anchor Laura Ingraham apologized to Parkland, Florida, school shooting survivor David Hogg on Thursday, a day after he called on people to boycott her advertisers because she accused him of whining. In a tweet Wednesday that quickly went viral, Ingraham said Hogg was “rejected by four colleges to which he applied and whines about it”." So, it would seem that if we are okay with using whatever adjective a reliable source uses, "whining" (as I noted below in version C) is an acceptable term to use in the article. Or, I'd be perfectly fine with changing it to the actual quote (and that would actually be more appropriate, so I'm going to change it now). Thanks for the comment, it was quite helpful. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 05:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I came here from the notice at the conservatism project, and I do have a concern that it was canvassing. However, that said, I'm uncomfortable with saying "ridiculed" or "mocked" in Misplaced Pages's voice, no matter the amount of reliable sourcing. There really are WP:BLP implications about using such terms. I'd prefer something like "strongly criticized", followed by "characterized as ridicule or mockery by source names". That way, it is attributed. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:12, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:YESPOV, "Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice." The sources are not reporting that someone opined that Ingraham mocked Hogg; they are stating it as a fact in their voice. When something is widely-reported as a fact by multiple reliable sources, attribution is not needed or even desirable. No one has produced any reliable sources to the contrary. Editorial judgement also comes into play. Any reasonable person seeing the words that Ingraham tweeted would likely describe them as mocking or ridiculing. On the other hand, her tweet was not widely-described as criticizing, thus not verifiable.- MrX 🖋 20:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
The fact that we can use the word per policy does not mean that we should. The very existence of this discussion demonstrates that "uncontested and uncontroversial" is not quite what we have here. I think there are good reasons to place higher priority on WP:BLP than other considerations in a situation like this. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:58, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Tryptofish: Not canvassing. As policy re: canvassing states here, "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Misplaced Pages collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion...Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief". The previous is a perfect description of the notifications left at the project talk pages listed at the top of this talk page as well as the kind of message that was left. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:50, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
It's borderline canvassing for two reasons: (1) you did not (unless I missed it) immediately disclose here that you made the notification, and (2) this WikiProject is unlike most others in that there is a realistic expectation that editors with one view of the RfC issue, more so than the other view, will see the posting there. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Your definition of what WP:CANVASS states does not match what WP:CANVASS states, Tryptofish. Ergo, still not canvassing, borderline or otherwise. But, if you'd like to see change in policy, I'm sure you can bring this situation up at the appropriate place and see what happens. Maybe you can get the policy to reflect that this currently acceptable action per policy is a policy violation. Until then, I'll continue to follow policy. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 16:59, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Duly noted. I do think that I understand policy, be it about canvassing or about BLP. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I acknowledge you believe you think you understand policy on canvassing. That said, it's obvious you do not if your definition flies in the face of actual policy (which it does). -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Duly noted. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Attribute who used the term Mocked or Ridiculed, such as according to X, they described Y as Z. No need to push the agenda of several sources on Misplaced Pages, let this article not descend into an attack page cause sources disagree with the political POVs of the subject of this article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:04, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

The agenda of our sources is to report factual, relevant information to the public. Journalism. If you believe otherwise, please explore those ideas at WP:RSN or WP:VP, not here.- MrX 🖋 12:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Which version?

Which version should be used - choices A (current version); B (reverted version); C (suggested version) listed below, survey follows:

A: "In March 2018, Ingraham's show was boycotted by 27 sponsors after she ridiculed David Hogg, a 17-year old student survivor of the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting."

B: "In March 2018, Ingraham's show was boycotted by 27 sponsors after she called David Hogg, a 17-year old student survivor of the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, whiny."

C: "In March 2018, Ingraham's show was boycotted by 27 sponsors after she stated on Twitter that David Hogg, a survivor of the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, was "whining" about not being accepted by colleges he had applied to was "rejected by four colleges to which he applied and whines about it"."

-- ψλ ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900,

Survey

Version A

  1. Support Version A, since the term "ridiculed" and its synonym "mocked" was used extensively in a range of reliable sources. No objection to also quoting her Twitter mockery. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:38, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  2. Version A - When in doubt, use WP:RS. Although I've always been bothered by the word survivor as I don't think he was in the same building. But, if it's in his article, it has to be in this article. O3000 (talk) 12:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  3. Support Version A.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    Tomwsulcer, can you give any reasoning behind your !vote? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:20, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
    Yes. But see the trout comment below.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:03, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    Tom, I'm asking for an explanation behind your !vote. A Trout has nothing to do with your reasoning, does it? Are you aware of this policy guideline , specifically the section titled, "Communicate"? Is there a reason why you're being what appears very much to be uncooperative, non-collegial, and unhelpful? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC) -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    Winkelvi the way I see things, you're not really interested in learning, or changing your mind, rather it appears to me that your agenda is merely to waste everybody's time here with a disruptive poll. So it is hard for me to take your request seriously.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 10:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    If, then, you don't take this survey seriously, why even !vote? I mean, you haven't provided rationale, and have refused to do so when asked what your rationale is, so what's the point of !voting at all? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 22:34, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    Sigh.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    NOTE: See comments in above discussion where consensus was already determined, with multiple reliable sources. - MrX 🖋 10:51, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  4. Version A, per the best sources. A trout for Winkelvi – disruptive poll. Binksternet (talk) 17:18, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  5. Version A, of course, per my previous arguments and the multiple reliable sources in the "Ridicule" section above. - MrX 🖋 00:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
  6. Version A per the mass of WP:RS, which, as it has been (re)iterated many times, is the lodestar which guides how we speak in Misplaced Pages's voice. —SerialNumber54129 12:44, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
  7. Version A. Per RS coverage. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:07, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Version B

Version C

  1. Support C - NPOV, states the facts, isn't in Wiki-voice, puts the tweet by Ingraham in context. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:52, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    The fact is that she ridiculed David Hogg That fact is already in the article. Tweets don't have context..- MrX 🖋 10:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  2. Support version C: context in important. And if possible we must use her own words. Per WP:RS#Quotations: "The accuracy of quoted material is paramount and the accuracy of quotations from living persons is especially sensitive. To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted." – Lionel 02:31, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    Or we could just follow sources.. By the way, the text in version C is not a quote by Ingraham. It's a quote by Winkelvi. - MrX 🖋 02:44, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    I was referring to "whining." – Lionel 05:12, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    Lionelt, please note above that I have changed version C to contain the exact quote. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 05:18, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    Incorrect. The correct quote is "David Hogg Rejected By Four Colleges To Which He Applied and whines about it." Per WP:RS#Quotations: "The accuracy of quoted material is paramount and the accuracy of quotations from living persons is especially sensitive. To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted." Nonetheless, quoting her doesn't improve the article and is not mandated by policy. We should simply write 'mocked' or 'ridiculed' based on the large number of reliable secondary sources cited above.- MrX 🖋 10:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  3. Support C When something is controversial like this I find it best to give more context and let the reader decide. PackMecEng (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  4. Support C - per @Winkelvi and Lionelt: reasoning.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:07, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

"Harshly criticized"

I forgot to mention this in my edit summary, but the RS clearly mirror this language: "Laura Ingraham was furious with Kevin Yoder." + "Ellmers won the primary... even after withering attacks from Laura Ingraham." Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:31, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

We can state that according to sources, Ingraham was such and so, but we can't say in Wiki-voice "Ingraham harshly criticized...", because that is POV. You've been told this many, many times over the last few months, Snooganssnoogans. Also, as I just posted at your talk page with a warning, don't plagiarize content from sources as you did here. Further, don't lie in edit summaries when reverting/editing (link to comment at your talk page about same here). As well, this statement you have now put into the article, "Ingraham holds anti-immigration views" cannot be said in Wiki-voice and needs to be written in an NPOV manner. I'm hoping you will do that quickly. Even though Misplaced Pages isn't on a deadline, POV language should never be allowed to stand - especially in a BLP. There are rules against that, of course. We all need to follow them. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:36, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
"Harshly criticized" is an appropriate way to paraphrase what the reliable sources have written. Since it's not a Misplaced Pages editor's POV, and as far as I can tell, there are not any reliable sources that contradict that description, we can definitely say it in Misplaced Pages's voice. Likewise, a review of available sources indicate that Ingraham's anti-immigration stance is well-established..- MrX 🖋 12:37, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
"'Harshly criticized' is an appropriate way to paraphrase what the reliable sources have written." Only if you want the article to read POV and anti-Ingraham. Which is not how an encyclopedia is supposed to read.
"and as far as I can tell, there are not any reliable sources that contradict that description" Are there reliable sources that say she "harshly criticized"? If not...well, you know the rest. Not to mention that no matter how many sources say it (and, "as far as I can tell" - you know...with my own original research, none do - but YMLVs), we still can't say exactly that in wiki-voice because it's POV wording. This has been pointed out to you endlessly as much as it has been to SS.
"Ingraham's anti-immigration stance is well-established." No, her anti-illegal immigration stance is well-established. And, unless you have something in the form of a direct quote that states she is anti-all immigration (legal and illegal), such content cannot be allowed to stay in the article. None of the sources you provided have done that. Unless, of course, you're reading between the lines while wearing your bias-rimmed rose-colored glasses. That's some pretty good Wiki-lawyering, X. But it doesn't persuade in a manner that calls for a rewriting of policy on POV or BLP. Nice try, though.
And just for good measure and to recruit the eyes of a proven neutral Admin in regard to politically-based articles, I'm going to ask MelanieN to weigh in here.
-- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 17:15, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
WaPo says she's "anti-immigration". Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:32, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, then, dear God, it must be true because the WaPo says she is without any real evidence that she is other than a writer's biased take on what she's said. Let me try to put this in simpler terms: do you have a direct quote from Ingraham where she has said she is anti-legal immigration as it related to the United States? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Where does it state we need a direct quote from the subject to include content on her views?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:34, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Not useful O3000 (talk)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
TheGracefulSlick - here's a query for you: Have you ever edited this talk page or the article before? I don't think I've ever seen you show interest in any of the politically-related articles prior to your post here. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:43, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Is there a purpose behind this question? O3000 (talk) 18:47, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict)There's always a purpose behind every question I ask. Those of us on the autism spectrum rarely ask anything pointless/without good reason that follows a logical path. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Winkelvi, nope, first time! Should I have tried to meet your qualifications before asking a question on content? Also, look at Crippled America—a political campaign book—since I “have not shown” any interest in politics.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:49, 31 July 2018 (UTC)TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:49, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
"Qualifications"? There are none. But I do find it interesting that you ended up here since politics and this article are not in your repertoire. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
Winkelvi does this lead to you answering my question? Or no?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry Winkelvi, but your comments in this section reflect a very poor understanding of WP:NPOV. For example, exclaiming that "unless you have something in the form of a direct quote that states she is anti-all immigration (legal and illegal), such content cannot be allowed to stay in the article." is simply not a factor in determining the actual content that we are discussing in this section. Critical adjectives are not violative of NPOV either. You seem to conflate "neutral point of view" with "neutral". Please take the time to learn our policies before diving into the deep end.- MrX 🖋 19:25, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
"your comments in this section reflect a very poor understanding of WP:NPOV." No they don't.
One thing is for certain, X - if you are ever permanently transported in an act of time travel back to an era pre-electricity, be sure to apply for work as a gas-lamplighter. You're so very adept and talented at it. I'd be willing to bet you'd make employee of the month, each month, for an entire year. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:34, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Demographic Changes in the United States

Would someone please change this sentence:

"Ingraham has spoken out against the changing racial demographics of The United States"

Should be: "Ingraham has spoken out about changing demographics in the United States."

Reason: Ingraham has not spoken out against changing racial demographics in the US. She has not mentioned "race" in these contexts. She has spoken out about changing demographics, but she says explicitly that this is a matter of cultural demographics and not of race.

The wiki article should reflect what Ingraham actually said and not what she did not say.

1Nathan7 (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

This has been widely reported in reliable sources as racially cast. . But, I added her denial. O3000 (talk) 21:37, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Glad you noted her denial in the article. Someone's going to have to explain to me one day when "reliable sources" became judge and jury as to an individual's guilt or innocence when it comes to the hot-button issues of the day and why Misplaced Pages gives so much credence to the pronouncements of these media Judge Dredds. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:52, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
We all look forward to your understanding. O3000 (talk) 00:38, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Your response tells me you lack an understanding of what I wrote. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:54, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Lets get something more reliable than "The Fix" opinion section of The Washington Post. PackMecEng (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I didn't use it in article space. There are cites there already. I used it on talk to provide an example of widespread opinion using a respected blog with editorial oversight. O3000 (talk) 01:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank goodness, but just an FYI no sign of editorial oversight on that blog. Fine for the authors opinion and all but that is it. The sources used in the article are better but not by much. PackMecEng (talk) 02:01, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Curtis

@Moomat: Having an estranged brother is one thing, using said brothers opinions to insert negative comments into the article is quite another, especially if it's based on a single source (The NBC article basically parrots the Daily Beast). Kleuske (talk) 21:42, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@Moomat: To make the point that she's estranged from her brother requires a single statement (sourced) along the lines of "She's estranged from her brother". The nasty stuff is an private persons opinion. Kleuske (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

"Anti-immigration"

Editors have once again tried to change anti-immigration to "anti-illegal immigration", despite the fact that cited sources explicitly refer to her as "anti-immigration" and despite the fact that Ingraham has specifically spoken out against "legal immigration". Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:10, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

The article talks about all of it in context of illegal immigration. Explaining her views, what she has said on it, and what she has done. All while explicitly in context of illegal immigration. How you get anything else is beyond me. Also really calling it bordering on vandalism? Stop the personal attack BS and focus on content. PackMecEng (talk) 13:17, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
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