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Angela Beesley

I've moved this from Talk:Angela Beesley as this is more a matter of policy than Angela's article. It seems that the reputation of a school is bing "damaged by gossip spread by Misplaced Pages Volunteers".

Dear Angela, Please accept my apology in advance if this is not the place to share this information. The rules of Misplaced Pages are such that I am personally lost with regarding to correct forums for various purposes. That being said, please forgive me, and take a few minutes to read the following:

Linda Christas, as school of over 4000 online students and over 300 faculty and counselors has been damaged by gossip spread by Misplaced Pages Volunteers. Our parents, faculty and students have attempted on several occasions to add Linda Christas to Misplaced Pages. We are a recognized effort to reform Western public and private schools. We do that by taking the aptitudes, skill levels, interests and learning style of each student PRIOR to adopting curriculum. In other words, we believe that much of the alienation found in classrooms throughout the West is a result of the West adopting the system of klaxons, bells and whistles, as well as one size fits all curricula for children as if children all matured at the same time and in the same way, such as we might find with carrots.

We feel financially damaged since one of our celebrity board members, Alison Jiear, resigned from our board as a result of Misplaced Pages sharing with her gossip that a true racist shared with her, gossip incidently which was just that. But, Alison's management didn't seem to care if the material was true or not. They recommended that she resign and she did.

Over and over again, we have been deleted from Misplaced Pages, even though Pat Boone, Efrem Zimbalist Jr, and Sue Grafton, along with pioneering surgeons, Naval officers and Fulbright scholars have endorsed the school.

We really do not wish to involve ourselves in any type of litigation. We simply want to be treated fairly with a permanent entry on Misplaced Pages. Surely this isn't asking too much given the treatment our students, faculty and parents have been subject to thus far from Misplaced Pages volunteers.

Please keep in mind that Linda Christas is oppposing a one size fits all monolith supported by hundreds of billions of education dollars each year. We do not collect any public money, and it is safe to say that we are outmatched by public sector power. If we cannot even be recognized by a liberal organization such as Misplaced Pages, we certainly are doomed.

Ronald F. Bernard, Dean, Linda Christas www.lindachristas.org

The following was the note I received from a Misplaced Pages volunteer after my protest of the latest deletion.

Dear Ronald Bernard, Thank you for your mail. Ronald Bernard <rbernard@lindas.com> wrote:

> 
> *Dear Misplaced Pages,
>
> It has been brought to our attention by Alison Jiear that someone at
> Misplaced Pages has been reading IP addresses and misinterpreting them as
> coming from the same computer9s).
>
> Our servers process e-mails from over 4,000 students and their families
> daily.
>
> One of the things we ask of all our students and faculty is they use the
> school's servers so we will have a record of daily activities at the
> school similar to a brick and mortar institution.
> 
> That means, of course that the IP addresses will be similar for all
> e-mails processed through the school's servers.
>
> So many people believe that they are computer literate and most are, but
> reading  IP addresses to uncover dishonesty is not demonstrative of very
> much.
>
> That Linda Christas must continually fight for any recognition is a
> mystery to our faculty and our students.
>
> I see that once again, Linda Christas International School has been
> eliminated from Misplaced Pages, when brick and mortar kindergartens with
> enrollments of as few as 25 are maintained.
>
> With over 4,000 students world wide and 312 licensed counselors and
> credentialed teachers, someone or some-many are not being fair with our
> School.
>
> And, we do not know what to do about that.
>
> Any counsel you may wish to share with us regarding how we can maintain
> a listing for Linda Christas would be very much appreciated.
> 
> Our best,
>
> Ronald F. Bernard
> Dean
> Linda Christas*> 

I'm sorry to hear your experience with Misplaced Pages has been frustrating.Articles on Misplaced Pages are deleted according to our Deletion Policy:<http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy>. If your article was deleted by an administrator without a discussion, thatmeans the article probably met one of the criteria for Speedy Deletionoutlined here:<http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion> If yourarticle was speedy deleted, this may be because it was extremely short orbecause it did not provide information about why its subject was notableenough for inclusion in an encyclopedia. If your article was deleted after a debate on "articles for deletion"(<http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion>), it isbecause members of the community decided that your article was for some reasonunsuitable for inclusion; possible reasons include being not verifiable fromoutside sources, or because it was a page on a person, group, or idea that isnot sufficiently well-known for an encyclopedia article. If you believe after reading the deletion policy that your article wasunfairly deleted, you can ask the administrator who deleted the article for afuller explanation. (You can find out which admin deleted the article bysearching for your article title in the deletion log at<http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Log/delete>.) If after an explanationyou still believe the deletion was unfair, you can bring up the article atDeletion Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review) wherethe community can take another look to see if the article was deleted inerror. For more guidance on how to write a Misplaced Pages article, you might find thenewcomers' guide to writing Misplaced Pages articles helpful:<http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Your_first_article> The Tutorial is also a good reference for help on all aspects of Wikipediaediting: <http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Tutorial> I hope this helps, and I'm sorry for any trouble this has caused you. Yours sincerely,Michelle Kinney -- Misplaced Pages - http://en.wikipedia.org---Disclaimer: all mail to this address is answered by volunteers, and responsesare not to be considered an official statement of the Wikimedia Foundation.For official correspondence, you may contact the site operators at<http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>.71.142.242.201 00:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The AfD was full of spa's and sockpuppetting, with several of the spas having been proven to be from the same IP address. There were zero independent sources for any of the claims, including that the named individuals are really members of the board. Despite repeated requests for verification, none was forthcoming. If you want to take it to DRV, you may certainly do so, but more sockpuppeting there will do no good, and you should read WP:SNOW. If you feel the need to take legal action, please contact the Misplaced Pages legal representation, but threats here will only lead to any accounts making such threats being blocked. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm somewhat confused by the claims in this. It seems to assert being damaged by gossip and "result of Misplaced Pages sharing with her gossip that a true racist shared with her". Yet I'd woukd have thought that gossip would be pointed to, so it could be sorted out. Instead it just stays as just vague claim, the fact that their isn't an article means this "gossip" can't be there, nor does the AFD appear to contain "gossip". The second sentence makes no sense, who was it who told the gossip Misplaced Pages or this "true racist"? Or is the suggestion that this "true racist" said that wikipedia contained gossip? Regardless of that I can't see how Misplaced Pages containing an article on the subject would solve this problem. --pgk 09:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

From what I can gather in the deleted talk page comments there were apparently things said on other sites which they are attributing to 'Misplaced Pages volunteers'. They describe these 'off-Misplaced Pages' comments as negative/biased against them, but don't provide any actual links that I saw. In any case, the extreme 'ranting quotient' in all of this does make it rather hard to follow. I'd expect an educational group to be capable of presenting a better / more coherent case... and thus find the whole thing rather questionable. There continues to be no evidence that this group has ever been mentioned in a reliable third party source... or even that it IS a 'group' rather than a web-page set up by one person. Maybe they exist and do something noteworthy... but if that were the case you'd expect to be able to easily find evidence of it - or that they would be able to provide such. --CBD 12:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, during the AfD I attempted to contact the board members listed on the Christas site. Here is the email I sent to one of their managers:

Hello,

Rich Fife here with a question about <listed board member>.

I am doing some work investigating an organization called "Linda Christas" and I am trying to determine if <listed board member> is in fact on their board. Here is their page:

http://www.lindachristas.org/board.htm

Are they a member of their board? If so, what is their role? Thanks!

-- Rich Fife --

I feel it's a fair and neutral email. They replied in a non-committal way, and I replied as follows:

I'm working on an article about the Linda Christas organization for the Misplaced Pages online encyclopedia here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Main_Page

The article in question is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Linda_Christas_International_School

There's considerable question as to their legitimacy, and one of their claims is that you are a member of their advisory board of directors per this website here:

http://www.lindachristas.org/board.htm

All I really need is a quick "Yes, that's me. I've been working with them to do <X>" and it will help the discussion out quite a bit.

Thanks a lot!

-- Rich Fife --

The member in question replied that they had been contacted by them after seeing a performance and asked if they wanted to be a board member. They said sure, why not? And that is pretty much the last they heard about it. They asked me if there were any issues they should be aware of. I explained as follows:

Thanks for your reply!

The answer is, as most things in life are, complex. The question I've been working on is "Is Linda Christas of sufficient profile to be listed on Misplaced Pages?" The answer is seems to be no.

Operative word "seems".

You have my permission to stop reading this as soon is it gets too arcane. Misplaced Pages isn't your problem, I realize.

The weird thing about Misplaced Pages is that anyone can add anything to it, but then the other contributors ("editors") can then change it or decide to remove it. An article on Linda Christas was added, then removed after a discussion here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Linda_Christas

The author put it back, then it was removed and banned from reinstatement. The author put it back under a different name here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Linda_Christas_International_School

and then added unrelated mentions to dozens of unrelated articles all over the place like so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Government_Financial_Officers_Association&oldid=81335356

Causing much consternation. Discussion of removal of the second page starts here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Linda_Christas_International_School

I, naive person that I am, stumble in late while this is going on. Here's a point you should be aware of: Misplaced Pages has a way of determining whether a particular contribution has come from the same computer as another contribution (all computers have addresses on the internet just like houses have adresses on the street). All of the contributions to the discussion in favor of keeping the article save one (from TruthBringerToronto) have come from the same computer, but they are signed as if they come from more than ten different people. One person is pretending to be many people in order to swing the discussion in their favor. As you can imagine, this is a major faux pas.

Anyway, oddly enough, that's not the real issue. The real issue is that Linda Christas makes many claims that SHOULD have easily accessible means of verification, but no verification is forthcoming. They claim to have schools in China and Poland, but refuse to disclose where they are or how to get in touch with them. How can they possibly have any students? The list goes on and on.

Anyway, one of the high mucky mucks (I'm just a plebe with pretensions) finally decided they'd had enough and banned any newbie users from participating in the discussion, which shut the discussion down.

And that's the story as far as Misplaced Pages goes. Sorry you asked?

Here's a blog entry about another man's strange encounter:

http://ramblingtaoist.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_ramblingtaoist_archive.html

Here's them trying to shut him up:

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/notice.cgi?NoticeID=1884

And here's their homepage:

http://www.lindachristas.org/

I'd like to mention this email exchange on the discussion page, but I don't want to name you without your permission. There is a possibility that bringing your name into the discussion will cause the whole thing to pop up when people enter your name into Google (Google really likes Misplaced Pages for some reason). I can refer to you indirectly or simply as "someone on the list".

Thanks so much!

-- Rich Fife --

p.s. <Compliment>

p.p.s. You have a Misplaced Pages article here:

<redacted>

Anything you'd like added? Is there a headshot you'd give permission to use? I (or someone else) should do it. You're not supposed to edit your own.

It turns out they are quite internet savvy and knew exactly what a IP addresses and sockpuppets are. They contacted Christas directly and received all manner of replies from different email accounts coming from the same IP address, which did not leave a good impression. Either they were being astroturfed or Christas was sharing their email address with lots of people. They asked to have their name removed. - Richfife 21:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I am bringing this back from a previous deletion as it relates to a controversy that has involved legal threats from Linda Christas towards Misplaced Pages (see above) and should probably remain on the record. - Richfife 16:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

THERE IS NO GOSSIP BEING SPREAD BY WIKIPEDIA VOLUNTEERS!!!! Dear Angela, Having just removed myself as a board member at Linda Christas, I hoped that I could forget about the school, but I am angered to find that I am now being grossely misquoted, and I am not going to remain silent.

I would very much like to elaborate on what Mr. Bernard has said below regarding my resignation as a board member of Linda Christas. Firstly, the truth of the matter is that I received a perfectly polite email from someone, on behalf of Misplaced Pages, asking me if I would kindly verify that I was on the board of Linda Christas. Simple, straightforward. I replied saying that yes, I was on the board, and that was the end of that. It was at this point however that I did wonder why I was being asked to verify my involvement, & realised that although I had accepted the Mr Bernard's invitation to be on the board (only months earlier), I really knew very little about the school. This I felt in hindsight was irresponsible on my part, and so decided to do a little digging and just make sure that I was happy with my decision to remain on the board. Unfortunately, I discovered various "chats / articles" about the school, which were not exactly complimentary. I also came across information that indicated that various contributions to Misplaced Pages all came from the same i.p.address, but under different contributors names. It all started to unsettle me. As a Patron for a very well respected charity in the UK, in which I actively participate in fundraising, I was angry with myself for not seeking this information earlier, before agreeing to "put my name" to it, and I considered contacting Mr Bernard to discuss removing myself as a board member. It is true that after putting feelers out, I received 2 private "comments" on my website from someone who was obviously not a supporter of the Linda Christas school, but this person was not from Misplaced Pages, and I NEVER told Mr. Bernard that they were. Mr Bernard states that "Misplaced Pages shared with her gossip that a true racist shared with her".... ALL LIES. Misplaced Pages only contacted me to verify that I was a board member, and that was all.

For him to say that a "racist" had shared information with me is incorrect. How curious then, to receive two emails, post resignation from two other persons I'd never heard of who were "connected" to the school( though strangely they came from the Dean's ip address, and it appears the same computer also ) suggesting that "if you really don't care about inter-racial harmony or children, then you will follow the path of least resistance" and resign. As a mother, and a supporter of various causes, I was deeply insulted, and their emails only confirmed that I did not wish to have anything further to do with these people, and to find that I am now being misquoted, just enfuriates me. They are trying to use my resignation as "fuel on their Misplaced Pages fire"... How the school can say that they have suffered financially from having me remove myself from their "school" is a joke, and beyond my comprehension. I was on the board for less than two months. Critereia for becoming a board member... all the school did was email me and invite me to be on the board, I said yes without looking into it, they stuck my photo and name on their list of board members, and I never heard from them again, until I emailed them asking to be removed, and now the mud is flying. For all I know the school may be completely above board... I will never know, but if the way I have been treated is any indication of their ethics and christian ways, I regret ever having been involed with this organisation. Alison JiearAlisonjiear 09:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

10 year old user with detailed information on userpage

User:Ujjwal Krishna states where he lives and even has a photograph of himself on his userpage. This obviously comes under WP:CHILD. Thought I should bring it to someone's attention. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 21:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. User:Zscout370 03:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Not done. If I can still see the information, others can as well. Please, please, can people dealing with things like this get the process right. (1) Remove the information from immediate view; (2) Contact someone who can permanently remove the information; (3) Don't shout about it on a publically accessible noticeboard. Seriously. Shout about it publically all you like after the appropriate edits have been oversighted, but not before. In fact, someone should put a header up at the top of the page stating this: DO NOT PUBLICISE SENSITIVE ITEMS REQUIRING OVERSIGHT ACTIONS BY LINKING TO THEM. I know I'm WP:BEANing on this, but this point needs to be made forcefully. Carcharoth 05:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a wise thing to do by user, and Zscout370's action appreciated, but let's be aware that WP:CHILD is the subject of an arbitration case as to whether it has been rejected or is still proposed, or maybe even accepted. So let's be careful using it as a justification for edits. 157.191.14.26 18:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

So it's at ArbCom now? Hmm..didn't know that. All I removed was just the name, where he lives, where he goes to school and the photo he used. The user wasn't blocked and I won't ask for one either. User:Zscout370 18:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You do realise that what is needed here is Misplaced Pages:Oversight? The actions taken so far have done almost nothing to protect anyone. If anything, this thread has made a problem visible and has helped reveal a potential target. The picture has been deleted though. Carcharoth 01:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The information is still visible. Can someone please delete the relevant revision. Carcharoth 21:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Now dealt with. Carcharoth 02:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

New block option

I just noticed a new option in the block screen: we can choose not to autoblock IPs used by the blocked user. Sounds like a handy tool, but of course we won't know in advanced who is using AOHell so perhaps not as handy as it first looks. Guy 00:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds great, but doesn't the autoblock go poof as soon as you switch IPs anyways? Or is that just when the IP itself is directly blocked? Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 00:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

This should be used sparingly, otherwise most blocks will end up being meaningless ("We don't want you to edit from this account for 24 hours! But feel free to create a new one.") As we don't know who's using AOL (even the vandals who claim they are on AOL probably just want to avoid blocks), the only use for this that I see is username blocks.--Konst.able 01:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Can also be useful if we notice a bunch of autoblocks in the log- unblocking the username and reblocking without autoblock. Ral315 (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly--it's good for username blocks. I just blocked one, and got to use the option for the first time, and it's a particularly good example: .

We may not use this option every day but I can see it being useful. Antandrus (talk) 03:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh, maybe it's different here, but the change on wikibooks was to allow blocking of all IPs that were used by a particular account (we didn't have that before). This tool has a great capacity for doing collateral damage, since it's essentially a step beyond "not allowing account creation"... if I understand it correctly, it means that any registered user will not be able to edit if they're using that IP, which is a serious problem for schools, AOL, etc. --SB_Johnny||_books 17:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

autoblocks have long been a feature of mediawiki so I would have thought applied to wikibooks as much as it did here. The new option allows you to explicitly stop autoblocks happening. Whilst you are correct there is the potential for collateral damage (the reason this option to swith off was developed), it also stops the create an account, be a m:Dick get blocked, create another account, rinse and repeat cycle. --pgk 17:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The checkbox is marked "Automatically block IP addresses used by this user", and refers to autoblocks, which happened automatically before. By unchecking it, autoblocks won't be placed. Ral315 (talk) 01:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just put yet another proposal at Wikipedia_talk:Autoblock#Autoblock_bypass_proposal which people might be interested in commenting on. In short, admins would be given a third option called soft-autoblock which sits inbetween no autoblocking and full autoblocking. Under soft-autoblocking, users with a registered email address would not be blocked, unless their email address matches that of a blocked user. Regards, Ben Aveling 02:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

User:CommandoM

CommandoM has been adding pictures of upskirts and downblouses claiming that the pictures are pictures of the user and have tagged the pics as such. I think that at the moment the pictures should be removed until we know that these pictures really are of the user. Gdo01 04:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

As I read the license assertions, the uploader claims that the photos are by the uploader, not of the uploader. So they are validly under GFDL. Secondary to that, there may be a privacy issue of consent of the subject of the photo, but none of them include faces or are otherwise identifiable. Talk:Upskirt indicates there is an ongoing discussion on User_talk:CommandoM. I don't see a necessity for admin action in the meantime; others may disagree. --MCB 22:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Asinine behavior at RD

Anyone else want to try to convince the clowns at the RD that, for example, this thread is completely inappropriate? Before wading in you might want to review the history at Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk and user talk:Light current. I've tried to be way more than reasonable, but apparently have only managed to piss them off. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I've blanked the section (see my last edit in the history) and left a note at Light current's talk page. JoshuaZ 05:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The reference desk Humanities gets trolled consistently by the please-talk-to-me set ("blacks are stupid," "jews run everything," "women are stupid," "anyone who believes in God is stupid," "anyone who doesn't believe in God is damned"), but the volunteers have lately been giving head to the needy clowns way too often. There isn't much to do but offer up stern reminders and then hope that they take the advice. As volunteers, there isn't much coercive that can be done to or about them, nor should anything more really be necessary. Geogre 17:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

User Light current is not a random troll on the reference desk. He regularly abuses it, askes inappropriate questions and answers serious questions with jokes. Someone really should keep an eye on his, its childish behaviour such as this that seriously hiders the usefulness of that part of the project. pschemp | talk 20:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

What pompous nonsense! Give examples of inappropriate questions. Look at the ratio of serious answers to jokey ones. Why are you picking on me. Other people use the RDs. Why didnt you also remove the preceding comment by StuRat eh?--Light current 05:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

StuRat has been nearly as bad in the past, just not this time. You both need to think before you type. pschemp | talk 06:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but that is your personal interpretation of the posts. The posts happened to serious. THe problem with applying your own rules is that they aren't WP rules. You are acting as censor, judge jury and (possibly) executioner. That is not the function of an admin. That is not the spirit of WP. Deletion of other peoples that do not attack anyone is censorship. This is the slippery slope of which I have warned: I dont like you, so Im going to remove any of your posts to which I take a dislike.And if you argue about it, Ill block you!

All your actions need to be backed up by written WP poilices. Just using the term disruption is a cop out. I could say you were being disruptive by removing parts of a thread. And I ask you again: How is that thread disruptive to WP? --Light current 17:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a serious problem. Just tonight we have more inanity and crude jokes that could be offensive to those not "in" on them. If these editors continue, I'm going to block them. Their actions are disruptive and offensive. pschemp | talk 03:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I told you that is NOT a joke. Its a short discussion on skid marks that should not offend anyone. Tell everyone how these posts disrupt anything. I would think VERY carefully before I took unjustified and unsustainable actions. I get the impression now that Im being Wikistalked by pschemp. Please desist.--Light current 05:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously how many people need to tell you to knock it off for you to listen? - Taxman 06:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I am listening. So far I have heard a few admins tel me they dont like my jokes. Knock what off? What am I being accused of?

I am not trying to be offensive to anyone and thread was serious. You must come up with a violation of some rule. Otherwise you are just making up policies to suit yourselves. Please tell me specifically where I am violating policy.--Light current 17:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop rules lawyering. You don't need to be violating policies to not be helpful. Seriously, you've been asked multiple multiple times. When there are several conversations I can think of asking you to stop a behavior, those conversations are all wasted time that could be saved by you just stopping the behavior. So enough already. - Taxman 19:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So are you going to tell me what rules Ive broken or not? Or which behaviour to stop. Do you mean stop posting anything anywhere? If not, please be specific so we can all learn to abide by the consensus rules. 'Not being helpful' can be applied to anyone who does nothing. THey are not helping at all! What you are saying is much more than that, but what exactly is it that I do that is disrupting WP?--Light current 20:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

See below. - Taxman 20:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all, you broke the civility rules (referring to someone's Mother is out of bounds). Second, from one of Misplaced Pages's official policy pages: Misplaced Pages is free and open, but restricts both freedom and openness where they interfere with creating an encyclopedia. Accordingly, Misplaced Pages is not a forum for unregulated free speech. The fact that Misplaced Pages is an open, self-governing project does not mean that any part of its purpose is to explore the viability of anarchic communities. Our purpose is to build an encyclopedia, not to test the limits of anarchism. \-Patstuart 20:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I admit referring to someoness mother. I didnt know that was disallowed. I cant see this particular bit on not being allowed to mention peoples relatives in WP:Civility: perhaps you could point it out to me? It was not intended to be an offensive referral. I apologise if anyones or their mother was offended. Most people who live at home have their mother do their washing, so I see no disrespect in mentioning that she would not throw out underwear for that reason (anb action suggested in the previous post).

I dont see how that comment in any way interferes with creating an encyclopedia. Perhaps you could enlighten me. Neither do I see how it attempts to explore the viability of anarchic communities. But again maybe you are reading something into it that wasnt there. I again restate that this thread was a serious one on how to remove skid marks from underware. 8-((--Light current 20:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering you've been asked so many times to stop your unhelpful behavior it's rather disingenuous to ask for specifics again. How about in general stop using Misplaced Pages as a discussion forum? Stop rules lawyering and stop making wasted edits. Stop arguing just to argue as you're doing here. And yes, that is what you're doing because you've been told so many times, you already know what behaviour is expected. If you still claim you don't, you should be able to go find out easily enough. - Taxman 20:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I can determine from all the criticisim (in the absence of specifics) is that some Admins would like to gag me completely.--Light current 13:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Community probation

Why are we wasting time on this? I propose we apply a Misplaced Pages:Community sanction and ban Light current and StuRat from the reference desks for an appropriate period of time (perhaps 2 weeks to start), to be enforced by appropriate blocks. Thatcher131 21:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Quoting what reason? If its funny comments, yould better ban all the other joking RD editors as well so that it doesnt appear to be discrimination. Also you will need to change the rules so that any form of joking on RDs is banned.--Light current 21:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of Light's edits seem to be acceptable and he seems to have actually answered serious questions with serious answers on some occasions. I suggest for now simply strong caution to use the reference desk primarily for what it is designed for. While joking may be acceptable under some circumstances, they should be kept to a minimum. JoshuaZ 21:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

StuRat, as far as I've seen, has been incredibly informative on the RDs. He's also been more serious recently, even if he's not stone-serious I havn't noticed anything that could be construed as disruptive since the last time this was brought up with him. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 21:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

THank you Joshua for that sensible comment. 8-) I agree to do that and if you look at my replies over the last week or so, you will in fact see that the amount of foolish silly replies from me has markedly diminished.

Also some people may have noticed that I am in fact trying to form a set of guidelines for posting on the RDs. This process was going quite well until the present distraction. Also remember that a great deal (the majority) of silliness is initiated by silly questions from unknown users who do not sign their posts. Guidelines on how to deal with trolling or stupid questions will also need top be developed. I think this procedure is far better than leaving judgement upto individuals as to whether a particular post is offensive, silly, tolling etc. That is one reason I proposed that it should take the agreement of 2 editors before any post was removed from the Rds(except in cases of blatant violiation of WP:Civi, WP:BITE etc.).In fact maybe the last guideline to add to the 3 I have already formulated would be:

While joking may be acceptable under some circumstances, it should be kept to a minimum.

8-)--Light current 21:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

May I make a comment about LightCurrent? This is my observation after several months of interaction.

1. I believe this is a good-faith editor, and I don't think strict/punitive remedies are necessary or desirable.
2. I think his problems stem from two sources: a) I believe he is truly, genuinely incapable of recognising the line between appropriate and inappropriate humour/comments. That, IMO, is why he is pushing for rules and regs on this matter; I think he invests a lot of emotion into his work on WP and it causes him a great deal of anxiety to have uncertainty/ambiguity v/v its reception. Compounding that is that b) he has no faith in the community at large to guide him in matters of appropriate communication. I believe it causes him great anxiety to feel 'at the mercy' of a bunch of people.
3. I believe he has a problem with authority, and that extends not only to Administrators, but in fact to anyone who offers feedback or concrit, however mild, on his contributions or behaviour. Note that for a couple of months, he had a header on his userpage reading something like, 'Barnstars from my friends, blocks from my enemies'. He can't recognise when a critical observation or inhibiting action is taken against him in good faith, or to be helpful. Such actions automatically make the perpetrator an enemy.
4. I think the only reasonable solution is if an editor can be found who has community trust and common sense, and who would be willing to mentor/mediate, and from whom LightCurrent would actually accept concrit and gentle guidance. I do not know if such a person exists, because I have seen numerous instances of LC reject and pillory even the gentlest, most well-meaning guidance. OR, we just accept the status quo. Because in my observation any comment or attempted intervention from the community at large generates a firestorm of conflict that LC and a couple of other editors latch onto, to the detriment of the community. Anchoress 21:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that is a very good summary and I dont think I can disagree with any part of it. I am particularly impressed with the fourth suggestion as I do find that reasoned argument works better with me than threats or critisism. Also yes if we did have rules and reg, everyone including me would know where the line was. I am the first to admit it when I have been shown to be wrong as past evidence shows. I thank Anchoress for taking the time to do this personality analysis. 8-)--Light current 22:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, its dead on. However it isn't the community's place to legislate or make insanely detailed rules for behaviour because you are incapable of understanding what is over the line. In fact, I know you are capable because you replaced the original offensive post with one that is slightly better, so that's evidence your brain works, you just aren't using it most of the time. Find someone to help you. Maybe SCZenz will do it since he thinks that the people who posted here are so abusive. pschemp | talk 12:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

(The last sentence misunderstands the context of the message it links, and misrepresents my position. Please see my note on pschemp's talk page. -- SCZenz 17:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC))

Well really I cant quite see the difference apart from the wording being more formal (less colloquiall). Perhaps its colloquiall language that gets your goat? Unfortunately, if you keep it a secret as to what offended you, no one will know what to avoid in the future. Also, I bet that what offended you was not the same thing as what offended some other commenters. But of course we wont know until everyone is specific about what exactly is offensive of wher exactly the line is drawn.

Anyway why do you object to having some rules on the RDs. You seem to quote your own versions of the existing rules often enough when it suits you. I wouldnt say the people posting here are abusive. Some are however seem agressive and hostile as if their very existence were being threatened. Is that your reason?--Light current 12:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a babysitting service. pschemp | talk 13:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Then why act as a baby sitter? And please do not remove my posts. You are acting outside your authority.--Light current 13:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove any post made by you to this thread. Please remove your paranoid hat. pschemp | talk 17:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Emmalina

So I've been going back and forth with User:JzG on this, and, while I have no doubts about his good faith in his actions and our discussion, I would very much like a neutral, uninvolved party to review what's gone on the last week and get some sort of motion on this.

Emmalina is a YouTube gal who's been the subject of multiple news stories. There were a number of AfD's, the third that was closed somewhat bizarrely as delete, and unfortunately upheld at DRV and turned into a redirect to Notable YouTube memes. When that was deleted, a second DRV occurred, with a number of people changing their positions based on the deletion. The vote count (see why DRV shouldn't be a straight vote?) was dead even, so Xoloz "played King Solomon" and left the deletion, but unprotected the redirect. Since that redirect, we had one anon try and resurrect the information outright, and a discussion was occurring before JzG decided to simply protect the redirect, essentially stopping discussion dead in its tracks.

Whether I think it's the right move to eventually keep the redirect in place is irrelevant (I think the original delete close didn't take our guidelines into effect at all), but it's obvious that consensus changed and the DRV closing reflected that. The protected redirect is helping nothing, and stifling the discussion to actually come to a consensus in light of the new events. I have no problem with rolling with what the consensus ends up coming to amongst the editors, but that would require us to be able to without this sort of intervention. I'm noting this at JzG's talk page so he can toss in his two cents, but I'd appreciate some neutral review on this. Thanks. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Q. How does a protected redirect prevent further discussion?--Doc 14:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It's stifling it. What's the point of discussion if nothing's going to come of it, for instance. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

But how is it 'stifling' the debate. Perhaps something or nothing will come of is - but there's no need to beggar the question.--Doc 16:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how requesting some neutral input into the action is begging the question. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Asking for neutral input into the discussion isn't - but insisting that the protected redirect is removed prior to the conclusion of that discussion is. It doesn't need removed unless the discussion reaches that conclusion. It only needs removed now if you assuming the outcome of the discussion is to remove it - that's beggaring the question.--Doc 18:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, the expression is "begging the question". But "beggaring the question" is a nice eggcorn. Metamagician3000 00:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, given that I believe that he protection has effectively stifled debate, and was put in against what the DRV closing was, I disagree. Hopefully we can focus on the actual issue at hand whether than quesitoning whether I'm "beggaring the question." --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

But you are still not explaining how protecting a page stifles debate. You aren't debating on the protected page, are you? The talk page isn't protected, is it? Go debate. If the result is a consensus to undo the direct then fine. If not, then the question doesn't arise. I still don't understand why you are on this page with this. If you want community input into a debate then there is RfC or DRV.--Doc 19:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that on a strictly path-of-least-resistance standpoint, you could always (1) start a discussion on the Emmalina talk page, (2) create a working copy in a sandbox off the Emmalina talk page, and (3) solicit some participation or discussion through appropriate RFCs, etc. If you end up with a well cited page in the sandbox and a consensus on the talk page to un-redirect, you'll have a much better case to re-open. TheronJ 18:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, there already exists one in the history. The article has been through some rather bizarre discussions the last few weeks, and the sourcing and attention is in line with similar articles with similar notability (geriatric1927 comes to mind). We're actively abandoning our guidelines on this one (which we're prone to do), and I'd honestly rather see a new AfD with the lack of a notable YouTube memes article happen than the current situation - then we can ahve the protected redirect knowing it's a real consensus, and not just one person deciding they don't like the DRV result. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, wacky. I can't say I wouldn't have closed the 3rd AfD as delete - in borderline cases, the admin has to use their judgment, and Deizio's judgment was delete. It looks like Xoloz's intention was to "see what happens", and what happened was the article was recreated. On the other hand, it is extremely suspect that it happened to be recreated by an anon whose only edit, ever, was to recreate the article. The main problem I have is that JzG's reprotection basically ignored process and made a spot judgment on the article's notability. He didn't explain the protection on the article talk page, and his conversation with Badlydrawnjeff is debating the notability of the article, not really explaining his action. I would be in favor of unprotecting and respecting Xoloz's DRV closure, but I think JzG's impurt would be valued here. --Aguerriero (talk) 19:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be useful, and I'd like him to give it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

A very important clarification. The redirect was not to Notable Youtube memes, it was to Youtube. Deiz has explained (multiple times) that the existence of the Notable Youtube memes article played no part in the decision to delete the article . As I have explained as well, the Notable Youtube memes article was created during the Emmalina AfD, was then AfD'ed itself almost immediately and quickly gained an overwhelming consensus to delete. This was two days before the Emmalina AfD was closed; basing the decision on the existence of Notable Youtube memes would have been very wrong, as that article was well on its way to deletion as well. WarpstarRider 22:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The existence of Notable YouTube memes largely contributed to how at least 3 people based their opinions at the DRV. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Rationale as stated several times: the consensus was not to have a separate article, notable YouTube memes got deleted so we should have a section on notable memes in YouTube and see where it goes. If it gets too big it can be forked. But we should stick to what is verifiable, factual information, and not fall prey to the ludicrous fandom which is so common in this kind of article. In other words, we do the same as we did with YTMND, where we leave it to their wiki to do the original research "look at this, k3wl" crap which causes so much trouble with neutrality, verifiability, sourcing and other WP policies and guidelines. And to be honest I am just the tiniest bit pissed off with endless wrangling about subjects which have no sources which meet our guidelines, which are trivially easy to find out about from the original source, which is still on the web. I did not think we were intended to be a mirror of Google or indeed YouTube. Guy 23:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Jose(Cha-Cha)Jimenez

Moved at Jayjg's suggestion to WP:AN/I#User:Jose(Cha-Cha)Jimenez. - Jmabel | Talk 23:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

recently returned from lengthy absence, is there anything I need to know?

. . .specifically, before I start using my admin powers for anything more than deleting a bunch of my old subpages. I stopped paying attention to all the behind-the-scenes goings-on in April or May of this year; since that time, have there been any significant technical modifications made to the admin buttons? Have there been any significant changes in the mores and customs surrounding the use of those buttons? Any landmark incidents or decisions I ought to review? The policies are their usual bureaucratic selves, and delving through six months of history on multiple heavily-edited pages to figure out what's a significant shift and what's a narrow agenda would be a nightmare, so any brief summaries or pointers would be appreciated. thanks in advance. —Charles P._(Mirv) 07:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• There are new options for blocking; anon only and account creation enable/disable (which show all the time but only affect IP blocks) which have the effect you would think they do, and allow rangeblocks and longer IP blocks with less collateral damage; and disable autoblock (which only works with user name blocks) which is mainly useful for blocking vandal username violations (so that someone on AOL can't make a denial of service attack by registering a bunch of vandalistic user names).
• There have been major change to Speedy Deletion (WP:CSD) expanding the kinds of articles and images can be speedy deleted.
• More community-imposed permabans, and an attempt to start Misplaced Pages:Community probation.
• The 3RR applies to any 4 reverts in a day, not just 4 reverts of the same text
• Oversight can hide edits that disclose personal or libelous info even from admins; see WP:RFO, requests should be made on the mailing list.

What else? Thatcher131 07:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice summary! :-) Do you want to write the potted history of Misplaced Pages policies? Actually, that was a joke, but now I think about it, a brief overview of the history might be useful. What have the major changes been since the project started, and are they documented anywhere other than in megabytes of talk pages and page histories? Carcharoth 07:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Forgot WP:DENY. Thatcher131 13:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Image undeletion is also possible now, as of June 16 I think. I don't think all active admins even know about it yet, I get the impression a lot of admins shun image deletion like the plague still... --Sherool (talk) 13:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyrighted items can be speedied now without going through WP:CP. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Clarifying Thatcher's above, for 3RR the edits still need to be on the same article. JoshuaZ 01:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that was how I was inforceing it over a year ago.Geni 02:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can take a look at the archives of the Misplaced Pages Signpost and see any significant stories each week. Even if you don't read the articles themselves (although I encourage you to do so), the headlines themselves should give you a good idea of what's been happening. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 02:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• There was a brief attempt to list such things at Misplaced Pages:Changelog, but it never really caught on. >Radiant<

• Some observations: WP:BLP is enforced more strongly, and I think more of us pay attention to it than before; most serious content contributors use inline cites now, and in general we are much tighter about our sourcing and referencing than, say, a year ago; I see more and quicker blocks for personal attacks and gross incivility (fine by me); Zoe makes a good point--we kill copyvios more quickly than before, whether they're brand new articles or just additions to existing ones; overall I think our standards have climbed a bit. Antandrus (talk) 22:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Not too sure where to put this...

... I'm suspiscious of the articel USPS Office of Inspector General, which is blatantly copied from their office site, a .gov domain. If the OIG is part of the Federal government it's OK, but the postal service isn't and can hold copyrights.

I went to the logical place (WP:SCV), however it says its only for a bot and that I should use {{cv-unsure}}. That however states that it's only for suspicions without a source, which I have.

Does anyone know what the correct answer to either is (problem or not, and where things like this should go in the future)? Thanx. 68.39.174.238 19:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

From what I see, this applies: In practice, this means that much material on *.gov and *.mil, as well as material on some *.us web sites (such as the sites of the U.S. Forest Service), are in the public domain. Please note that not all such material is in the public domain, though. Public domain essentially means it can be copied and used anywhere, including the commercial wikipedia.Logical2u 20:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Even if it turns out to be public domain the source should still be credited. Durova 21:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The US Postal Service is not part of the US government. They've got a .gov domain because many people believe they are, but works created by the USPS are not public domain. --Carnildo 23:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

So postal workers are federal employees (IIRC), but they aren't part of the US government? Hbdragon88 02:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. Postal Service has a unique status. At some points the debate about whether it's "part of the government" or not becomes almost metaphysical. One official attempt to explain the employment status of postal employees is here. Newyorkbrad 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Could we be safe and just delete it? The articel isn't even named right (missing definate articel, probable improper contraction). If someone will create the page at the correct name and let me know, I'll write up a unquestionably legit articel for them. Thanx. 68.39.174.238 22:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

AOL vandal reverting User:Hu12's edits

Need some help with this, an AOL vandal has been repeatedly reverting many of User:Hu12's edits, and it's quite aggravating to me, as I'm sure it must be to him (ex. diffs: , , , ). It's quite likely the spammer is the same as had posted personal information on my userpage from AOL, and was noted as likely through a checkuser here to be the since banned User:EinsteinEdits. As both myself and Hu12 reverted and repeatedly warned this user for his linkspam, and this vandalism started soon after that (and I know, personally, that I haven't done anything that might antagonize anyone here recently), it seems obvious to me that it's the same person doing it. I had been liaising with User:Kylu on this problem (see some messages on her talk page regarding this situation here, however it appears she has gone on Wikibreak. So I figure it's high time I come here, and ask for others to keep an eye on this AOL vandal, and especially Hu12's contributions, since they seem to be getting reverted on a daily basis. Thanks. -- SonicAD (talk) 05:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

This appears to be a thebookstandard.com-related effort. El_C 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, he'd been doing it before he reverted anything having to do with that website. See , , and especially this, as this vandal has repeatedly reverted (probably more than any other of the pages he's reverted) Tickle Me Elmo, which User:EinsteinEdits repeatedly spammed with http://www.tmx-elmo.org . -- SonicAD (talk) 12:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I stand collected. El_C 13:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

This aol proxy Vandal, in addition to what SonicAD has mentioned, has also threatened Pilotguy,by blanking his talk page and leaving this , resulting from the revision here. This vandal has been well doccumented, more background can be found in the following locations; , , , , and . Most recently has vandalized these pages; , , , , , , , . Hu12 16:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

More.. , Hu12 19:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Copying this section back from the archive, as it looks to be continuing... , , , , , -- SonicAD (talk) 01:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

continues... , , , , Hu12 18:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Attacks in edit summaries?

User:TJ Spyke has done it in his edit summaries (more than once), he has put the word "trolls" in the edit summary. In my opinion, that's an attack. If he sees vandalism, he can remove it and NOT insult the user by calling him or her a troll. I mentioned this on his talk page, and got no reply. While he doesn't constantly call people trolls, he has done it quite alot over a few weeks period. I asked an admin about this, and was told to ask it here. This simply shouldn't be allowed, not everyone on Misplaced Pages knows how everything works... so in all those cases, people werent "trolling" and certainly shouldn't be called names. RobJ1981 02:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

If you really feel that this needs to be pursued, I'd suggest you start an RFC. From your description, there is nothing here that is disruptive enough (or insulting enough) to call for pre-emptive administrative action, and it sounds like you've already pointed out to him that these amount to personal attacks. - Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Article on Dungeon (BDSM)

The article on Dungeon (BDSM) seems to have inappropriate images, but I'm not sure what Misplaced Pages's policy is on pornographic images. Nor do I know the proper approach to having the images evaluated for appropriateness. Can someone please take a look? Thanks! Jonemerson 08:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy prohibiting it, so Wikipedians like to put porn everywhere they can. They have far worse things than this.--AltUser 12:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, an admin might want to take a look at the above user's contributions, just for interest's sake. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not mind pornography (although I think sadism (deriving pleasure from the suffering of others) is the worst possible trait/paraphilia/disorder that someone can have), but this picture is racier/more offensive than it has to be. A topless woman is not necessary for an image on the subject of BDSM dungeons and the gag and diaper are really over the top. As an example, the operating theatre could have a picture of a gunshot victim with blood and tissue all over the place, but such a picture is not necessary for the subject. I think that a picture of a dungeon with various equipment would best, but a picture of a clothed person would be an improvement. -- Kjkolb 17:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

And a picture of a bound person doesn't need to show any nudity either. It could be from behind; it could be in a position with naughty bits concealed; whatever. By the way, that gal isn't "suffering"; she's restrained, but isn't being harmed or hurt in any way. --jpgordon 17:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

See also Hogtie bondage. As a general principle, I believe that whatever is necessary in order to properly illustrate a topic should be used without restriction. However, beyond that, images that are likely to avoid offense should be strongly avoided and/or alternatives sought. — Matt Crypto 17:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

If the images in the article are bothering you, you can be bold, and remove one. The article does not need two images to illustrate the subject. I would suggest removing the image with the gag on, as this one seems to be more offensive than the one without. Thε Halo 17:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

<rhetorical question>Now, why exactly was someone who would easily be offended by images like that looking at Dungeon (BDSM)?</rhetorical question> - Jmabel | Talk 22:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because someone has a moral opposition to pornography doesn't mean they're not curious about what's going on in the world. I could easily see someone clicking on the BDSM link from "Dungeon (disambiguation)" just to see what BDSM is. But the reason I brought this article to people's attention is because I think the pictures are pornography, which I happen to enjoy on other places of the Internet, but which I don't think belongs on Misplaced Pages. Jonemerson 23:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You may want to look at these: WP:NOT, Misplaced Pages:Profanity, WP:PORN, as they are all relevent to what you are talking about. As I said, I think having at least one of those pictures in the article is acceptable, as it illustrates the subject matter. Thε Halo 23:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone!! An hour ago BanyanTree removed the less illustrative of the two images. I have also copied over this discussion to the Dungeon (BDSM) discussion page for future reference. Jonemerson 04:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Moving Van der Graaf Generator (band)

The name "Van der Graaf Generator" is unique, is well known as the name of a rock band and can not be mistaken with a machine called "Van de Graaff generator" though the band has derived its name from it in the late sixties.

The talk page Talk:Van der Graaf Generator (band) has a consens that a requested move should be done. The page Van der Graaf Generator is only a redirect page with no editing history. Nevertheless the move I tried wasn't possible:

"The page could not be moved: a page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid. Please choose another name, or use Requested moves to ask an administrator to help you with the move. Do not manually move the article by copying and pasting it; the page history must be moved along with the article text."--Peter Eisenburger 09:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

And now it seems the page is in limbo.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I was not expecting that to happen. The main article was merged with the redirect and then deleted, which is rather the wrong order. I'll keep an eye out for that next time. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 10:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No admin action needed anymore. The page has been moved by another user.--Peter Eisenburger 10:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

CC, can you figure out what I was doing wrong in the first place? As I interpreted the help page, when I move a page to another page (with the same -new- name), which is only a redirection, I am not supposed to delete the redirection page as the first step, because the deletion gets automatically done by Wiki?--Peter Eisenburger 10:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The automatic deletion only occurs if the page has only one line (its creation) in its edit history. Since this redirect was somewhat warred over (switched between the apparatus and the band), it didn't have such a simple edit history. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 10:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I was aware of that one-line-rule but looked in the wrong tab. The article then should be blocked by an admin to re-moving again.--Peter Eisenburger 10:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Still screwed up...

How so? -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 00:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Help me spam

Well, I'd like to do something to bring awareness to this problem with have with youtube links. I've created some boilerplate to help "educate" the general wikipedia public on the problem with YouTube.

This template is no longer in use. Please do not delete, I'd like to save for historical purposes. ---J.S 06:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

_{(from :User:J.smith/YT)}

I'd like some feedback on the language used and perhaps some assistance on spamming it on a few thousand article talk pages. ---J.S (t|c) 10:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Added an image. I was thinking the red hand, but this one is a little less...err...aggressive.---J.S (t|c) 10:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyedited to make it more general (Based on policy rather than "my informal research"), also added an autosig. Why don't you move it into the template name space; you may want to add a hidden category as well ("Articles whose YouTube links are in question", perhaps). (it should be subst'ed when its used, of course) and note it on Misplaced Pages talk:External links, where there is a big YouTube discussion. Thatcher131 13:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Spot on. A great start on removing this festering sore form the project. Guy 15:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I started a trial run. Hit the article in the first 100 link results. ---J.S (t|c) 18:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Do I get a cookie for this one? Joyous! | Talk 00:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Spamming underway

Well, I've started spamming my little message and I've gotten mixed results. Nothings has happened on many articles, but It's worked where thier are active editors present.

I'd really like some help with the project. Even with AWB its gonna take a long time to hit 4000 articles. Let me know on my talk page if you want to help... My list is organised by letter... so it would be easy to split up the work. ---J.S (t|c) 21:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I may be totally ignorant here, and feel free to tell me so, but....in the time it takes to place the message, couldn't you remove the link? Joyous! | Talk 01:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Not every YouTube link is unacceptable... so I'd need to review them one at a time to sort them out. 50 links would take 2 or 3 hours and we've got 4000. ---J.S (t|c) 20:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Spam project?

I wonder... should I start a project to help organize the spam? ---J.S (t|c) 21:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've created a miniproject. ---J.S (t|c) 08:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

User:BobbiLou many images uploading as pd-self

I placed imagevio on a couple images uploaded by this user, which he tagged as pd-self but, to me, are obviously copyrighted. After checking out his log history, he has uploaded many images, all pd-self, but I'm very suspicious of this being at all true. Before I proceed with mass imagevio tagging, I would like to ask people's opinion and maybe if this user should be blocked for "disruption". - Tutmosis 14:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be asserting that composites are therefore his own copyright to be done with as he pleases. I'm pretty confident that is wrong. Step 1 is to warn the user not to upload any more like this, I guess. Guy 22:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The {{Notable Wikipedian}} template

How do we know that the people who claim to be the people in the Misplaced Pages articles and the people who use those names as editors, are really those people? We take their word for it? That violates WP:RS. They say so on their blogs, in their newspaper columns, etc? Still violations of WP:RS. Seems to me that we need some sort of verifiable proof that these people are who they claim to be, or else we have to remove this template from the articles. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Can't it just be changed to something like "An editor claiming to be..."? Also, does WP:RS apply to talk pages?! I don't think so. --kingboyk 19:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Since taking the name of a famous living person who is not yourself is against the policy for account names, typically when an account appearing to be a famous person appears, an administrator will get hold of the person through non-Wikipedian channels (e.g. if they are affiliated with an organization, someone will contact them through the organization). For example, I did this recently with User:Medeabenjamin after her first edits. I cannot say for sure that this is always appropriately verified, but I can certainly say that it usually is. If there is an individual about whom you have doubts, I suggest that you specifically raise those doubts, rather than raising possibly offensive questions about the identity of many people whose identities have been confirmed. - Jmabel | Talk 23:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? I am not raising any offensive questions, I am asking a perfectly legitimate question about the verification of the use of this template. If the person's identity has been identified, then excellent, but if it hasn't been, then the template shouldn't be on the article. And I think you owe me a major apology. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Baby admin's first application of G11

• ArtificialMemory (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This is my first deletion under G11. The author, Lars Ludwig (talk · contribs), immediately recreated the page without responding to the message I left at their Talk page. My immediate reaction is to re-delete it, but as this is my first major use of the admin tools I'd like a sanity check. It'll take me a bit to get comfortable with the tools and practical feedback will help a lot. Thanks! — Saxifrage ✎ 21:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I would blam the article and salt it if recreated. Yanksox 21:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted again by me. If it gets recreated again, salt it. Unless, of course, it asserts notability (CSD A7) and is not spam anymore (CSD G11). --physicq (c) 21:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. The user has left me a message with the usual unaware-of-our-guidelines statement that it's not commerical, and I'm attempting to teach them about the problems with self-promotion. Hopefully the lesson takes and salting won't be necessary. I'll be slow on the next delete if it's recreated while I engage with the user. Thanks for the feedback! — Saxifrage ✎ 21:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

extra buttons in the edit toolbar

As requested at MediaWiki talk:Monobook.js I have (re)added several extra buttons to the Edit toolbar. Could several people verify that:

1. pressing the "make table" button/using the "make table" feature does not crash Internet Explorer. (This was previously reported, but supposedly fixed.)
2. while loading the images of the edit bar (which now takes slightly longer on slow Internet connections) you can already start editing on every browser/system configuration.
3. it does not cause any JavaScript warnings/errors, delays or other problems.

Regards, —Ruud 23:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The "make table" feature crashes IE after the cache is cleared. I have removed it. —Ruud 03:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It didn't crash IE for me, or cause any other errors. I am using cable so I couldn't test #2. VegaDark 02:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

From Bobabobabo

I am posting this on behalf of blocked user Bobabobabo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I made no promise to him that the request would be granted (I already told him that I would not be comfortable granting his request myself since I'm not familiar with the situation). Admins who are more familiar with his situation, please review.

May you please unblock me!!

To tell you the truth, I was a wonderful contributor to articles in Misplaced Pages "Yu-Gi-OH and Pokemon". The story began when a user named Mitsumasa began creating and upload Pokemon images and articles.

After about 5 months after the start of the articles the PCP began merging the articles (A Man in Black, Ryulong, Interrobamf) i tried talking to them, and the PCP but they did'nt listen. I even tried to leave a committ on their usertalk pages but A Man in Black is the only one that responds to my commi! tt. I gave up until recently students at my school "xxxxx" began bullying me, they knew that I was a contributor at the site "Misplaced Pages", so they told my teacher that they logged in some accounts and began vandalizing the articles that I personattly was currently having problems with you. My teacher Mrs. xxxxxx xxxxxx talked to the students xxxxx xxxxx and restricted them from using the school computer.

I'm very sorry

May you please unblock me and my IP address 72.177.68.38

He also indicated that his teacher's e-mail address is xxxxxxx@yahoo.com.

I do not endorse grant or denial of this request in any way. --Nlu (talk) 23:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No opinion on the merits, but I've taken the liberty of redacting the teacher's e-mail address to protect her from spam inundation, and the names of the teacher and students for privacy reasons. Obviously any admin who needs them for follow-up can pull them from the history. Newyorkbrad 00:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

See above. FreplySpang 00:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

She mass e-mailed that to everyone. I got it too, and right now she's got an unblock on her user talk. Frankly, with all of the crap she caused, even if it wasn't all her, then I think the block should be kept. There were upwards of 70 unique accounts that she indirectly caused to pop up and edit war and vandalize and cause too much strife. She was the one who did not listen to WP:PCP, and all of the sockpuppets that could or could not be her were all helping. One open proxy is blocked, as are the other IPs for the school.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 01:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Could use help with cleanup of image talk pages

I've been looking at image talk edits by anon users and I've come to the conclusion that about 90% of them consist of either: 1) An edit to an image of a non-existent image, or an image on commons (hence the comments should be moved to the commons talk page, and the wikipedia version should be deleted, by my understanding) 2) tests or vandalism or 3) Comments not relating to the image that need to be removed. Take a look at these and see if your findings are different. I've cleaned up/tagged for deletion a lot of the most recent ones but there are still tons to deal with. Also, should image talk pages that consist only of vandalism be tagged with Template:db-vandalism or simply blanked? (if it should be tagged, then should currently blank talk pages be tagged with Template:db-empty?) I've been blanking them up to now. VegaDark 23:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Blanking is fine. Some raise valid concerns (Who painted this picture?, etc). Those should be {{unsigned}}, and left there until someone answers them. Comments in images that are host in commons should be tagged as {{db-talk}} directly, unless they rise some valid concerns about the image source or license. At least, those are my thoughts and what I had done when finding myself in a similar situation. -- ReyBrujo 03:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Templates

A number of templates are in use (apparently by the CVU) stating that removing talk page warnings is uncivil and disruptive and grounds for blocking and having your talk page protected. I believe the wording of these is way too harsh (WP:BITE). I'd like to hear some thoughts on the matter. >Radiant< 00:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As an occasional rc patroller and nonmember of the CVU, I think that although it is helpful for vandalism-warning templates to be left in place (for the sake of sanely progressing in the warnings system, ie 1-2-3-4-5, or 2-4-5 in extreme cases), it shouldn't be required to leave them, and definitely shouldn't be a blockable/page protectable offense.

After all, blocks are preventative, not punitive, and this seems a lot more like punishment than prevention of harm to the encyclopedia. (However, I'm not a sysop - therefore incapable of blocking users - so my opinion should be taken with the knowledge that I might be completely ignorant of the situation.) Picaroon9288 00:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

These should be nuked. Yes, on occasions the immediate removal of warnings needs preventing, and admins have digression to take the appropriate action. But the effect of these templates is to create a new policy and encourage people to enforce it. There is no set policy here (nor should there be).--Doc 00:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree these templates are not helpful. There is not agreement that warning templates must stay on a users page after the user has read them. Warning templates placed in error by newbies are often removed quickly by experienced users. These templates promote the idea that removal is wrong and escalate problems between new and experienced users. --FloNight 00:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As someone who has fallen headlong into reverting the outrageous amount of vandalism, I don't want to report a user unless they've "achieved" the requisite number of warnings. There is no easy way to tell if it's constant, repetitive, etc., if the user simply removes the warnings after reading them or regularly blanks the talk page. This is especially applicable to IP vandals. CMacMillan 00:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC) ( <-- Not an admin)

Edit summaries. Thatcher131 01:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems relatively easy to view the user's talk page history, edit history, etc. Ral315 (talk) 01:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The templates need to be deleted. They aren't going to help in creating the image that users get blocked for removing comments from thier talk page. semper fi — Moe 04:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't there an entire centralized discussion on the wr templates, many times?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If there was, then it should be easily found and linked from a suitable place (the talk pages of the templates?). Otherwise we are doomed to forever repeated previous discussions. Carcharoth 10:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

(deindent) here here and here. Can someone put an archive box around this, so the long debate isn't repeated? MER-C 10:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem editor or problem administrator?

It's time to get some feedback about how I've handled a situation. On 31 October Halibutt posted a complaint to WP:PAIN about User:M.K. I judged that the problem was a content dispute and referred the matter to WP:DR. Halibutt wasn't satisfied with that decision and I wasn't satisfied with Halibutt's subsequent behavior. So please browse Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Halibutt#Outside_view_by_Durova and tell me whether I've been fair.

The way I view this, I'm dealing with a disgruntled editor who has been attempting to bait me. I consider my actions lenient because I haven't endorsed the RfC and I haven't blocked this editor. I have issued two block warnings and written an outside view at the RfC, which Halibutt and a couple of other editors think is too much. So, given my reputation as a softie, have I treated another troublesome editor with kid gloves? Or have I lost perspective and been too vigilant? Durova 02:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I've traced the source of at least one complaint: Halibutt has replaced my warning with a rather lengthy reply. So there's his side of it - should I back off and apologize or is he as off the mark as I think? Durova 04:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for posting a link to my reply there. In short, I had two questions from someone from the WP:PAIN. Before Durova replied to any of them, I was accused of WP:POINT just in case, without any apparent reason. But then again, I received all I asked for, but was again accused, this time of even worse offences. And when I reported to Durova that certain user started calling me names, Durova explained to the community that it was me to offend myself... His/hers comment at my RfC (Halibutt has returned to my user page to insult me again. Highlights from his latest post include dick, fuckhead, and I'll think twice before I trust your judgement in the future, given your recent trigger-happiness.) was extremely misleading and one-sided, given that I merely reported to her. He/she did not mention that my I'll think twice before I trust your judgement was merely a response to his/hers I could no longer extend an assumption of good faith toward claims you might make in some future dispute and that the offensive language was actually a request for clarification on the rules (But still, I wonder how would you qualify the recent action in which one of your fellows suggested I'm a dick or fuckhead? A friendly euphemism perhaps?). So, it was not me to offend Durova, but it was Ghirlandajo to offend me and me to ask him/her for help. A help I did not get so far.

I'm not a newbie and don't really care for wiki that much, but just imagine how would a newbie feel if treated that way by a wiki administrator: first presented with a fancy interpretation of WP:POINT, then accused of fancy things, in the end warned that using his/her talk page might get him/her blocked... and that should someone offend you and call you names, you are responsible for that. I'm extremely dissatisfied with Durova's accusations, but at the same time I'm quite happy with how she/he handled my requests for clarification of the scope of WP:PAIN. //Halibutt 07:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Fast blanking of warnings from user talk page

As I understand it, an IP number has no right to remove warnings, etc., from its own talk page. A the other extreme, some users in good standing routinely zap (without archiving) all discussion they regard as old, and there seem to be few complaints (answered by "Look in the page history"). But what's the policy (or what are the guidelines) on a user's fast deletion (without archiving) of warnings and adverse comment left on his/her own talk page? (Yes, sorry, I just know this has been done to death; but, hurried as I am, I can't find where.) -- Hoary 03:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I just came here to get advice on the same matter. The example is http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:66.90.151.114&action=history - I have been reverting this IP's removal of warnings, but not 100% sure that he is breaking any rules. Wanted to "cover my ass" by getting another admin to take a look at it.. (it's one of those anon's that causes trouble, but nothing that is an immediate blockable offense) -- Chuq 03:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not anyones place to force users to keep comments on thier talk page if they don't want them there. If a user has read it, they can remove it. Besides, if you have warned the user, it will always be in the history of the talk page for evidence. Constant revert warring placing comments on thier talk page is more of a disruption than helping. semper fi — Moe 04:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Would this the same for anonymous IP addresses though? -- Chuq 05:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, theres no difference between users logged in or under an IP address. semper fi — Moe 05:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

A previous discussion on this topic had the administrators who commented come to the conclusion that it was not okay to remove current warnings from a talk page. So, for example, a user who has been warned that the images they upload are missing mandatory information (such as the source) cannot remove the warning unless they've added the source information to that image. Similarly, a user currently engaged in vandalism cannot remove current warnings against vandalism. This is entirely different, however, from removing old warnings against vandalism. The consensus at the time was that a warning that was a month old was reasonable to remove but a warning just a few days old was not (unless it had been dealt with). Times in between were discretionary. If a user removes current warnings and then continues the abusive behaviour, it becomes much less reasonable to extend a presumption of good faith to that user. Also worth noting with IP pages is that it is possible for multiple users to "use" the page. In that case, it may be inappropriate to remove a comment as it may be directed to one of the people who share your IP address. Of course, the best solution in this case is to get your own account. --Yamla 05:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Abusive users remove very recent warnings, perhaps in the hope that (a) {{subst:test2}} will be followed by {{subst:test1}} rather than {{subst:test3}} (for example), perhaps in the hope that (b) they won't be recognized as recidivists. If it's (a), they're being treated with undue leniency; if (b), with unneeded leniency and timewasting. For example, if I notice on my first encounter with User:JoeBlowhard (fictional name) that he has made what appear to be racist comments, I may waste time on the rhetorical effort of AGF if he's removed from his talk page a series of recent warnings about racist comments. A lot of these people are quick to remove any message commenting on the removal of messages: the simplest inference (for me) is not that they want a "clean" talk page but instead that they don't want to be seen by newcomers as the kind of "contributors" (detractors) that they really are. You say: Similarly, a user currently engaged in vandalism cannot remove current warnings against vandalism: granted that people disagree over what "current" is, I think all (except the perps) would agree that it covers what's less than a week old. But is there any policy (or at least guideline) that says such a thing? I sometimes deal with truculent customers who are keen to stand up for their rights (or anyway whatever rights seem to let them continue to be a ); it would be good to be able to say to them (politely, of course!) "It's not your opinion versus just mine, chum; it's yours against the policy Misplaced Pages:Don't screw with comments on your own talk page." -- Hoary 06:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Hoary. The problem here is rarely users removing week-old, or even day-old warnings. It's almost always vandals/trolls just doing it to try and hide (I've seen one vandal be given the "welcome" template four times over the course of the day). yandman 10:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Users also legitimately remove warnings right away when the warning is wrong. Bots give out wrong warnings sometimes. And users sometimes give out bad-faith warnings to further a dispute. In both of these cases, it's legitimate for anyone to remove the warning right away. --Interiot 19:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

User talk pages exist to facilitate communication. Not to act as a 'rap sheet' or 'wall of shame'. That is not their purpose. Restoring warnings is thus at best edit warring, and at worst disruption or harassment. If you need to see what a person has been told before check their page and/or contribution history. If that is too difficult then get together and come up with standardized edit summaries to parallel the standardized templates... add special characters around them to make them stand out in the page history and you can have a record every bit as complete, but more concise and less disruptive. --CBD 12:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed 200%. If we do want a proper way to record "this is going on your record" issues, then it needs to have a way for good editors to address mistakes or bad-faith warnings and get them removed from their record. But that seems far too bureaucratic, so nobody has implemented such a thing yet. Regardless of whether it is ever implemented, a person's talk page is a poor stand-in for that. --Interiot 19:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've gotten into the habit of using edit summaries such as {test2a} or {spam} when I stick a warning on a user talk page. -- Donald Albury 14:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I just came across this guideline on talk page etiquette which seems pertinent. These two sentences are particularly noteworthy: Feel free to decorate your personal pages as you see fit, but keep in mind that your user talk page has the important function of allowing other editors to communicate with you. People will get upset if they cannot use it for that purpose. Yes, we can consult user contributions, pages histories, etc. but the usefullness of warnings and related discussion is in readily providing a context for understanding users' activity in Misplaced Pages - their edits and comments. Warnings tags have been designed to draw one's attention (not only the errant user's attention but others' as well) and one becomes justifiably suspicious of users who have blanked their talk pages and accompanying warnings while exhibiting edit histories of a controversial nature. It smacks of attempting to sanitize their presence on Misplaced Pages, and in that sense resembles sockpuppetry. Pinkville 01:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Logo problem

I'm fairly certain that this isn't the most correct place to be pursuing this, but it's the best place I've been able to find (newbie, sorry). The Misplaced Pages logo has an error in it. It is impossible that the Devanagari on the left side of the logo could be constructed in such a way, as the "i" vowel is written before the consonant with which it is paired. This is a common font problem, as is noted in the script's article. I'm frankly amazed that it's lasted so long without being fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rev. Strohm (talk • contribs)

See User:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo -- Samir धर्म 05:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Ericsaindon2's back

Architect King (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been editting Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California with similar material that Ericsaindon was banned for using, repeatedly.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Please take this to WP:AE. 19:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser  Confirmed. Indef blocked. Thatcher131 03:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible trolling

172.145.125.13 (talk · contribs) appears to be trolling, but it's not so cut and dry. He's removed some content from a talk page that he didn't like and has put "very strong oppose" on the nominations of two RfA's that were doing very well. Thoughts? Does it look like vandalism to you? I don't want to get into an edit war concerning the talk page, but I'm fairly sure it's against policy. Thanks. -Patstuart 06:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, upon further investigation, it looks like he's a sock of the guy who's talk page comments he's deleting. I'm going to report him to AIV and see what comes, but I'd appreciate comments still. Thanks. -Patstuart 07:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Can deleted discussion be undeleted?

I don't know if what I am asking is allowed, though I have seen precedents for it, but I wonder if the Talk:NPA personality theory page could be, at least temporarily, undeleted?

At present there is still controversy about this article including a blog entry off Wiki and the wildly inaccurate slashdot piece. I already see one edit completely misrepresenting the position I actually took on the article's discussion page . It seems to me that, particularly with a related RFM still pending, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Psychonaut/User watchlist it might solve and prevent a lot of unecessary problems if Talk:NPA personality theory were undeleted to prevent further misunderstandings of this kind? --Zeraeph 11:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You can make the request at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review. —Psychonaut 17:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I doubt if that is appropriate because Misplaced Pages:Deletion review is concerned with reviewing article deletions and it is just the talk page that may need undeleting to avoid further misunderstandings about what was said on it. Of course it is clearly visible to any admin, but with all this unfortunate and rather inaccurate off Wiki publicity it might save a lot of trouble to undelete the talk page for a while. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zeraeph (talk • contribs) 18:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC).

No, Misplaced Pages:Deletion review is not concerned solely with reviewing article deletions. Please read the page, and in particular the third paragraph and the information (also on Misplaced Pages:Undeletion policy) about temporary undeletion. Your asking for undeletion here is inappropriate. —Psychonaut 19:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for expressing your opinion but Misplaced Pages:Undeletion policy refers specifically to articles and media not talk pages, so I really need to know what an Admin thinks, particularly as an Admin can actually view the Talk:NPA personality theory as deleted and make an impartial, informed, decision on whether undeleting would solve or cause problems, or maybe can suggest an alternative that will avoid the possibility of further mistaken statements being made about the contents, under the circumstances. Sorry I forgot to sign the above. --Zeraeph 22:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

PS I chanced it anyway and it is now temp undeleted so thanks. :o) --Zeraeph 22:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

For future reference, if the talk page in question concerns debate about whether the article should be deleted (a not uncommon occurence with controversial topics), you may have some luck with an inverse application of CSD G8, which says that orphaned talk pages can be deleted unless "they contain deletion discussion that isn't logged elsewhere". This seems to imply to me that deletion discussion that isn't logged elsewhere shouldn't be deleted, and if it has been deleted, it should be undeleted so that it can be archived somewhere appropriate. Now, talk pages should, in theory, be just about article issues and how to write the article, but they often contain discussion relevant to deletion debates, so I can understand why accessing them can help with deletion reviews. But this is all academic in this case now. Carcharoth 23:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing warnings templates

I have recently deleted a suite of user talk templates designed to dissuade targets from removing warnings from their user talk pages. In my opinion, the templates were collectively eligible for deletion under speedy deletion criterion number one for templates, "templates that are divisive and inflammatory". I consider them to be divisive and inflammatory for several reasons:

• The suite of templates threatens administrative consequences for removing warnings, including the protection of talk pages and the blocking of users;
• There is no consensus whatsoever on what the appropriate response should be to the removal of warnings (see Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings, Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Removing warnings and Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll);
• The suite of templates employs a stern and confrontational tone, and uses threatening language, which may be warranted when backed by strong consensus (for example, templates which warn against simple vandalism) but is not appropriate given that there is no consensus as to the appropriate generic response to removing warnings.

I invite the community's review of these actions.

As a note to users who employ these templates, I should add that given that there may be consensus about the appropriate response to removing warnings in individual cases, users should consider tailoring a message to each situation. --bainer (talk) 11:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I fully support this action. The warning templates have been a pernicious source of problems and disruption for so long, far outweighing any usefulnes they had to the community. When people are getting blocked for edit warring over internal templates, things have gone too far. If an editor is removing warnings in a problematic matter, a message more tailored to the situation would be more appropriate, especially because there is little agreement over what situations qualify as problematic. As to the deletion of these templates, I suggest that IAR applies in this case, if nothing else. --Slowking Man 11:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Concur completely. In some situations there is a carefully-crafted system for escalating warnings, to enable admins to work together to deal with a serial offender: this is a good reason for using graduated warning templates. In other cases, however, the "one size fits all" approach simply fails to meet requirements: this is an obvious example. There is no consensus as to how long people are required to keep warning templates around, even: I have even seen people advocating that such templates should never be archived to serve as a permanent record of someone's misdemeanours! HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 11:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

While this seems a 'novel interpretation' of the intent of T1 I'm not going to object because I really dislike these templates and the massive disruption surrounding the whole 'you cannot remove warnings' / 'scarlet letter' philosophy. I hope we've reached the point where there is enough consensus that this shouldn't be indiscriminately applied that removal of these 'boilerplate' templates will be uncontroversial. --CBD 12:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Probably a MFD would have been more appropriate in terms of process, but the reasons for deletion are compelling. Given the lack of consensus, those things were misrepresenting policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I am happy that the templates are gone, especially as their existence is often used to provide a rationale for their use: "If there exist templates for this, it must be policy". A recent TFD discussion has decided to keep them, though, so this might not be uncontroversial ;-) Seriously, there is no need to have templates for this, and educating users that it is more polite not to simply blank their talk page all the time is better done by a polite handwritten note. Kusma (討論) 14:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, this TfD discussion, I think, though that was from August, and Kusma linked to October, so maybe there have been several such discussions. After further checking, the October discussion is here, and the August discussion (also linked earlier in this post) is here. Can anyone spell J-O-I-N-E-D U-P P-O-L-I-C-I-E-S? Carcharoth 15:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've also had the thought that there might be further debates elsewhere. These debates and the results should have been recorded on the talk pages of the templates. Can the deleting admin (thebainer) confirm that the talk page was checked for links to previous debates before the speedy deletion took place, and can any admin check the talk pages of these templates to see if there were links to the previous debates? Carcharoth 15:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I found the Google cache of the Template:Wr talk page, and it seems that the previous deletion discussions had not been noted on the talk page, or were moved to the archives of the talk page (which I have been unable to uncover - the archiving seems to have been by the 'page history' method). This is most unhelpful for anyone (eg. someone nominating for deletion) trying to find out if there have been previous deletion discussions. I am asking the closing admins for clarification of this. Carcharoth 15:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

After both TfD attempts, a notice was added to the talk page. The first one was removed before the google cache version was made; possibly when the second TfD began. The version in google was made during the second discussion. Eugène van der Pijll 17:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Grrr... I always seem to find out about the deletion discussions on these right after they close. Which is part of the problem here. The templates are beloved by the users who place them and despised by the admins who see them as violations of the harassment / edit warring / talk page and other policies. The people using them get notification of the TfDs. The admins refusing to enforce them do not. Ergo, neither of those TfD discussions reflects anything like the whole story. The fact is that these templates are abused constantly... as the regular appearance of this issue on AN & AN/I demonstrates. The idea of allowing any user to place a negative / insulting / potentially false 'warning' on the talk page of any other user and edit war to enforce its display there is (by far) the worst I've seen actively put into practice. --CBD 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this decision and applaud your boldness. The whole notion of harassing someone with false warnings and then punishing further when they take out the trash is ludicrous. --Cyde Weys 18:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether the templates are good or bad is irrelevant. The fact remains that due process had been followed, and consensus in the TfD discussion was that these templates should stay. (And it wasn't even a weak consensus: 10/3 in one discussion, 16/3 in another discussion.) Once consensus to keep has been established, templates should never be speedily deleted (likewise for articles and categories). Otherwise, what is the point of having a deletion process? If you want rid of these templates, follow due process; failing to do so is a gross abuse of power. Bluap 18:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No, not "never"; there is always WP:IAR. However, I agree that following due process is almost always preferrable to IAR, because it leads to less discussion. In this case, however, due process was followed, and did not result in the correct answer, so deletion was the right thing to do. Eugène van der Pijll 19:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Concur. I'd normally side with Bluap, but this case is special. In a normal deletion case, it's the deleting party that needs to demonstrate consensus; default in case of no consensus is to keep. But in this case, the burden of evidence must be reversed. These templates owe their existence only to the existence of the underlying policy (namely, that removing warnings is blockable). With policies, it's the proposers of a policy that need to demonstrate consensus. This consensus doesn't exist, as the debates elsewhere show; therefore, no policy, hence no justification for the templates. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify that (of course) many of the people who support these templates do not intend to use them for "harassing someone with false warnings"... but Cyde is absolutely correct that this happens. Alot. And I think it is that which justifies an 'out of process' deletion. These templates are frequently used for harassment and that's something which is clearly contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. The users who support their use in valid cases have good intentions (though I think even then subjecting someone to this kind of treatment often only inflames the situation), but can't prevent their constant mis-use. Wanting a tool available to you for arguably legitimate reasons can't trump the fact that in so doing you also make it available for inevitable abuse. We don't pass out handguns to everyone just because some people can use them responsibly. --CBD 19:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to see those templates gone. They were utterly confusing considering that there is no consensus about removing warnings. Having people reported at WP:AIV whose only "crime" is removing warnings about a questionable edit gets old very fast. --Ginkgo100 21:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Strongly endorse speedy of divisive, inflammatory templates routinely abused and with dishonest content to boot (misleading citations to non-existent policy). I tried hard to salvage these templates because I do think they have a point. Supporters, however, violently rejected compromise, abusing admin tools to fight off edits and comments. Every proposal to mandate these templates has failed -- 4 organized efforts. I'm not impressed that supporters mustered enough "votes" to keep on TfD; we don't decide things by voting here. Speedy criterion T1 properly applied. John Reid ° 22:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I also applaud's Bainer actions on this, I have seen too many edit wars over simply removing warings (which, in itself does not harm the enclyopedia) ending up with absurd situation of blocking someone for "removing a warning about removing a warning over a mis-interpreted edit." I have also seen good faith users being given warnings about a potential problem, the user resolving it swiftly on the article page but months later, when the user cleans out his page for tidyness (i.e. not selectively), another good faith user reverts him, and gives him a follow up warning. Having a good faith user get harrassed by another good faith user is not good practice, and this is exactly these templates encourage in my experience. Personally I think that the deletion was an excellent example of IAR - if due process dictates a situation that increases the likelyhood of unwarrented harrassment, then it should, and must be ignored, which is exactly what the IAR policy is meant to do. Regards, MartinRe 13:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

I can confirm that I saw those two TfD discussions, and I can also confirm that I disregarded them. The only argument mustered in favour of keeping the templates was that they were useful, with some users saying that this was so because the templates allowed for the convenient implementation of the policy against removing warnings (although there is no policy on this matter, indeed no consensus at all).

On the other hand, arguments in favour of deletion included that the templates misrepresented policy (Mark), were often used in practice to harass users (AnnH) and were uncivil and sometimes used for harassment of good faith users (Kusma). These opinions by experienced and respected users were seemingly ignored in favour of a numerical assessment of the result. Moreover, the opinion of John Reid (the original creator of the templates), that the language used had changed to be "dishonest and pompous" and misrepresenting of policy, was also seemingly disregarded.

In short, the concerns which led me to consider the templates divisive and inflammatory - that they misrepresented policy, and were threatening and confrontational without the support of strong consensus - greatly outweighed the weak results of these two TfD debates, which in the light of substantial previous debate, could not be said to amount to a consensus. --bainer (talk) 00:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone has to say it: policy trumps consensus. Specifically, it is appropriate to disregard a consensus to keep a divisive and inflammatory template. Well done bainer. Hesperian 00:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming that you (bainer) were aware of the previous discussions. Your arguments for deletion make a lot of sense. What I'm wondering is where the people that used these templates are at the moment? Shouldn't they be complaining somewhere? Carcharoth 02:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

All these warning templates have been undeleted, unfortunately. Eugène van der Pijll 08:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll just put in a quick word in favour of the templates (in reply to Carcharoth, here are your complaints...). The main use of these is when a user is on a vandalism spree and is removing warnings as fast as they're getting them; otherwise it would be possible for a user to get nothing but test1s and not be blocked. Some vandalfighters don't check talkpage history when warning a user (probably to speed up their vandalfighting). These templates are important for speed in such cases. The problem is when they're used on old warnings to edit-war on talk pages or to keep bad-faith warnings there; but this sort of misuse (which I agree is quite prevalent) is on the same level as misuse of any other template (such as {{test1}}. Perhaps the templates should say something like 'Do not immediately remove warnings from your talk page' and explain why. --ais523 09:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The templates are not necessary for this. Every vandal-fighter who is worth his salt always checks the user's contributions link and so sees that warnings have been removed. Vandal fighters who can be fooled by warning removals are doing something wrong. Kusma (討論) 09:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• This is be a good example of why TFD is not determined by vote counting. I believe TheBainer's reasoning is good, and I find it unfortunate that Eagle 101 (talk · contribs) undeleted them all, apparently because he thought it was out of process. Given the strong approval given to Bainer's actions above, I am sorely tempted to delete them again, but for now I'll settle for removing the incorrect parts from the templates. >Radiant< 09:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Template:Wr0 and Template:Wr2 appear to be okay. The rest were talking about disruption, blocks and talk page protections; I've removed those clauses, but that does make the templates appear rather empty. Maybe redirecting them to WR2 is best. >Radiant< 09:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

    They may be clean in the sense that they are not threatening blocks, etc., but there existence is still predicated on the idea that users should react to the removal of warnings by adding some sort of challenge/response. To my mind that is still an undesirable escalation in conflict. In my opinion, the whole removing warnings debacle has been one of the most undesirable aspects of Misplaced Pages for a long time. If we are really going to address this, I would strongly encourage people to nuke the messages entirely. If removing warnings is really a problem that ever needs to be addressed, then it should be addressed through personalized attention and not through a templatized continuation of hostilities. Retaining the messages, even in a neutered form, will continue to give the impression that giving warnings about warnings is an accepted way of dealing with conflict. Dragons flight 09:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

    {{Wr}} is fine now, but the level-3 and 4 warnings are no longer level 3/4 because they don't threaten blocks (can you have a 'last warning' with no method of following it up?) It may be best to do what was done with {{civil}} and stop at level 2, if this isn't a blockable offence. --ais523 09:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

    • We just need something like Template:WrMeta to warn people who abuse warning removal templates, and Template:WrMetaMeta in case they remove that. -GTBacchus 09:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

For any process wonks here, if you think that the balance of arguments was to delete but the TfD was closed by votecounting rather than arguments, the correct process is to DRv the most recent TfD, arguing that it should be overturned and closed as 'delete'. --ais523 09:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you are wrong about that. The text of WP:DRV refers solely to disputed deletions... not disputed keeps. However, that said, these templates WERE deleted (as 'CSD T1') and the proper 'process wonk' response to that should have been to list them on DRV. Even though they were instead restored via wheel war I think the best move may be to set up a DRV rather than continuing the wheel war with another deletion first. As Dragons flight notes above, removing the 'higher levels' and false statements about blocking in these templates reduces the damage they do, but not significantly. The first level alone claiming that users should not remove warnings from their talk pages is all the excuse needed for edit warring / harassment to keep warnings, whether valid or not, displayed. --CBD 11:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Huh? "Deletion Review is the process to be used by editors who wish to challenge the outcome of any deletion debate" That includes keeps. That's one of the reasons it's no longer called "votes for undeletion". >Radiant< 11:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "Deletion Review is the process to be used by editors who wish to challenge the outcome of any deletion debate or a speedy deletion" - from WP:DRV#Purpose, and I haven't even just edited the page to put it there; even the bolding is on the page. So I think keeps can be challenged just as much as deletes. --ais523 11:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

See the first four paragraphs of the page... extensive commentary about overturning deletions, finding information on past deletions, et cetera. Nothing about keeps. Nor can I recall having ever seen a page which was not deleted show up on DRV. The comments quoted above about "any deletion debate" were taken by me to mean that AfD, TfD, MfD, et cetera all go through DRV rather than having separate review pages for each. If it is meant to instead imply that DRV is also used for keeps I'd think that should be mentioned somewhere else on the page... rather than the multiple clear statements about DRV being used to review deletions. --CBD 12:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorsed 'no consensus', endorsed 'merge', endorsed 'rename', endorsed 'merge/redirect', overturned-relisted 'no consensus', endorsed 'speedy keep', overturned-deleted 'no consensus', endorsed 'no consensus', endorsed 'speedy keep', overturned-reopened 'speedy keep', overturned-reopened 'speedy keep', endorsed 'no consensus'; these are all the examples I could find from November and October of a non-deletion on DRv (one is even a CfD rename which isn't a deletion debate at all), so I think such DRvs are reasonably common. --ais523 12:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just looked again at Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_October_18#Template:Wr &c. (in which I participated). There are only three comments suggesting deletion, and one of them (Kusma's) only suggested deleting 3 and 4, leaving only John Reid's comments in favour of deletion of 1 and 2, and they suggested rewording (which has now happened) as an alternative to deletion, and the nomination. There were 16 !votes to keep, most of which can be ignored because they made no new points, but it seems reasonable to think that many users will be annoyed if these are deleted (they were probably trying to use the template and alerted by the TfD tag on the template itself). So DRv is clearly the best option; I'm going there now to ask for a relisting of the debate. --ais523 12:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the spirit of the rule is most important in this case. The world will certainly not end if we bring it to deletion review, and ignoring this "rule" (is it really a rule?) is less important than avoiding a wheel war. It can be evaluated under these circumstances. -Patstuart 12:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Deletion Review

See Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2006_November_7 for the deletion review on these templates. --CBD 12:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

If people aren't too involved in the deletion review, would this user's history be a suitable example. And can someone explain what the right process would be here? I was trying to find out the history of this user's voting in AfD discussions, and the warnings the user has received, but it is difficult to see this from the page history. Is this an example of a case where warnings shouldn't be removed? Carcharoth 14:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The massive edit warring to restore comments and then warnings about removing those comments was clearly unnecessary... though further confused by the fact that half the comment removals were made by an anon IP and thus some people were restoring because that anon shouldn't remove comments from someone else's talk... except that the anon was probably the user themself. In any case, user was properly blocked for multi-sockpuppet voting on *fDs. The edit war over whether the warnings should be displayed did nothing to improve the situation and was not the cause of the block. The fact that this practice is sometimes used to abuse 'problem' users doesn't make it any more proper or any less abusive... especially when it is just as commonly used against users who have done little or nothing wrong. --CBD 11:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it did waste my time, as I had to dig into the page history to try and find out what was going on, and even then it was not very clear. It would have been much clearer if the comments had been present in an archive. Would it have been acceptable to go through the page history and create an archive page clearly showing the talk page comments made in chronological order? I suppose one argument against that, is that it gives the impression that removal of comments hadn't been going on. It also gives the impression that later posts were added to a page full of comments, when in fact they were often added to a page with previous comments removed. If anyone could be bothered, diffs could be added to each section showing when they were removed. Carcharoth 13:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This is an illustration of why it's a very good idea for people leaving warning templates to clearly indicate that they have done so in their edit summary. Viewing these via the history page is the only reliable way to track edits. --bainer (talk) 14:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Virus-laden page on de.wiki

I'm not sure if this is posted elsewhere, but I thought it worth mentioning that an article on the German Misplaced Pages was edited to include a link to a fix for a virus that was in fact a virus in its own right. We've seen similar stuff here on en before, but in expectation of copy-catting, I thought I'd warn admins, and editors, generally about it. The BBC News story does not indicate which article it was, but if someone could find that out, it'd be worth watchlisting it and associates over here, too. Splash - tk 12:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The article was de:W32.Blaster. There's a short discussion on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (news). —da Pete (ばか) 12:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

US midterm elections

As we're probably all aware the US has country-wide elections tomorrow. We're going to see a lot of partisan vandalism; at the same time, we're going to be under a microscope. Our threshold for disruption is never high, but for tomorrow I think it ought to be a lot lower. During the 2004 elections, I personally administered a 24-hour block for election-related vandalism/POV-pushing on the first offense (see User:Mackensen/Election Day). I abandoned my watchlist and simply kept an eye on Recent Changes the whole day (as some IRC regulars may recall, I didn't sleep for 24 hours).

Anyways, just a thought for the admin corps. Mackensen (talk) 17:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It might be an idea to compile a list of those pages most likely to be subject of the vandalism and POV-pushing (the main election page, pages on close elections, for the key issues, and those for candidates in closely contested races). Then the rest of us, who don't know the details, can use "related changes" for that page to act as a topic-specific watchlist. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you going to do the 24-hour thing again, or are you suggesting a team of 4-5 people dedicated to reverting US election vandalism take it in 5-hour shifts? And do people really read Misplaced Pages articles just before heading out to vote... :-) Carcharoth 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, heavens no ;). I'm just saying that admins should keep an especially close eye on things. If you want to emulate my example from two years back by all means, but it's your body, not mine! Finlay has a good idea there, so I'll start User:Mackensen/Election watchlist. Mackensen (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

User:James Kemp/Representatives and User:James Kemp/Senate are two pages that may be useful to do related changes (or related watchlist) on. --Interiot 18:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

On the plus side, we can then delete all those campaign ads masquerading as biographies, since failed candidates fail WP:BIO :-) Guy 23:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Or you could wait a few days, and give those interested in preserving some of the information a chance to create campaign articles (at least for notable Congressional contests, which is what I'm interested in), and put redirects in place. John Broughton | Talk 03:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought, you could just block until Election day is over. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this is more of a problem for presidential election years, which get everyone fired up, in addition to the including the same sorts of elections as the mid-terms. 2008 will be twice as bad as 2004 apparently was, due to the huge increase in the popularity of Misplaced Pages. Could be problem with politicking and userboxes too. —Centrx→talk • 23:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein

This is crazy. Protection removed an hour ago and we've had 10 incidents of vandalism (+ ten reverts) - this means theres a high prob a reader will see the corrupted version. we must be able to do something Glen 18:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, gosh, then sprotect it! I originally thought it was against policy, but I read up: it's featured articles that can't be sprotected, but it says that front page articles can be protected. -Patstuart 19:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:SPP says not to use protection: "On the day's Featured Article, which should almost never be protected, in the interests of encouraging newcomers to be bold. Other pages linked from the Main Page may be protected if under attack;" -Patstuart 19:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

...which then implies that it's appropriate to use it on Saddam Hussein, since it is under attack. -- Natalya 21:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I read WP:SPP, too, and two thoughts came to mind. First, the words should almost never, which implies that there are times when it is appropriate to protect. An article on a controversial subject is going to attract vandals, whether it's FA of the day or just a run of the mill article. Some articles need protection no matter where they are or what their status. Secondly, I think FAD articles shouold be protected from editing, since many newbies do see them as their first wikipedia experience. So we really want newcomers to see all sorts of random crap thrown into what we implicitly say is the best of Misplaced Pages? Just my thoughts. Jeffpw 00:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with sprotecting this article. —Quarl 2006-11-08 03:19Z

Unresolved issue

Can anyone deal with this? Thanks. Carcharoth 21:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As was said above, the relevant policy needs clarification before we can act on it (at least that's my position--someone else may disagree). Chick Bowen 23:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Agree with Chick, and also, I don't see anything on the user's talk page asking him if he minds his personal info being deleted, either. Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to discuss the issues with the user there. Steve block Talk 01:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I have deleted all the versions from the history but ZScout's better be safe than sorry Alex Bakharev 11:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Carcharoth 02:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Multiple deletions needed

At some point, entries were created for almost every Ozzy Osbourne song. See eg The Ultimate Sin's track listing. As a test case, I proposed deletion for the article on the song "Thank God for the Bomb," which simply consisted of the text "Thank God for the Bomb" is the fourth song on the 1986 Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal album The Ultimate Sin as well as the {{rock-song-stub}} and {{Ozzy Osbourne}} boxes. The deletion criteria was that the song was not notable and that the article contained no new information with regard what could already be found on the album's main page. Deletion occurred without incident. Anyway, I think that now the rest of the songs which have no need for their own article should also be deleted. Is there any way to do this all at once or does it have to be done individually?—Wasabe3543 22:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the work of tracking them all down has to be done by someone, and it seems more likely to be you than anyone else, since you know what you're looking for. Just put a {{db-empty}} tag on each one and we'll get 'em. Chick Bowen 23:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. I haven't done a lot of deletion, so I wasn't sure whether speedy delete was an option in this case.—Wasabe3543 01:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The pages for deletion are listed on my contributions page starting with The Ultimate Sin (song) at 01:16, 7 November 2006.—Wasabe3543 01:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think they're all gone now. :) -GTBacchus 02:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

What was the point of deleting them rather than simply redirecting them to the appropriate album? No admin required, no information lost… HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 14:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Phil Boswell. They should be redirected. —Quarl 2006-11-08 03:17Z

Botched long Series of Redirects

Moved to WP:ANI. Kavadi carrier 01:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Babur

I am not unable to edit this page. Is there a user lock on my account not permitting to edit this page ? Siddiqui 03:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem resolved. Thanks

Siddiqui 03:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Create account issue

Hi. Don't know if this is the right place to post my question, but here it is. I use user name Vayaka almost everywhere and I have registered it in some Wiki progects, but I can't rigister it in the English Wiki (Login error:The name "Vayaka" is too similar to the existing account "Nayaka". Please choose another name.) Is there a way to register nickname Vayaka?--195.210.185.5 10:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

For some context, this is the AntiSpoof extension; I seem to remember from wikitech-l that an admin can get round the filter at Special:Userlogin and then email the user in question the requested account, but I'm not sure. --ais523 10:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this would cause any problems. Nayaka has not edited for 3 months now, only made a handful of edits, and was very close to being an spa. yandman 10:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

So what should I do to register username Vayaka? Should I contact someone directly?--195.210.185.5 11:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Look on your talkpage Alex Bakharev 11:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The similar case is posted here. I have mailed the person and asked to create an account with different name. But if could be solved then please create a desired name for him and mail him. Thanks, Shyam 19:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

AIV backlog

Hey, there's a long enough list of block requests at WP:AIV. Can somebody take a look at it& Thanks. MaxSem 10:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Image dispute

Hey all. Can someone look at Image:Owenpuma.jpg and settle this, please? I don't want to start blocking people for disruption, although I'm sorely tempted, as I have already made a content judgement and so shouldn't use my admin tools. User:Panarjedde and User:Kingjeff have been squabbling over various images etc, with, of course, the other one always being wrong. This image, Image:Owenpuma.jpg, was posted by Kingjeff with no status. Panarjedde immediately tagged it for deletion. I then came across it during a clearout of C:CSD. I removed the speedy tag and put the correct fair use tag on the image (I've tried before to find a free image of Owen Hargreaves - one doesn't exist at the moment). Pan is continuing to tag it for deletion and revert fair use tag, so please, someone else step in so I don't get my editor / admin wires crossed. Thanks. Proto::type 12:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've done a revert, but as a non-admin, I can't block him. But if he reverts again, he's guilty of 3RR too. -Patstuart 12:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue has been misrepresented. Let me explain, possibly not assuming I am wrong without knowing what happened (this is for Patstuart):

• "This image, Image:Owenpuma.jpg, was posted by Kingjeff with no status." Wrong. The image was posted by Sebas87, and had a wrong fairuse tag, which claimed it was a sporting event poster.
• "Panarjedde immediately tagged it for deletion." Wrong, the image was uploaded on 7 September, I tagged it on 6 November, not exactly "immediately".
• "Pan is continuing to tag it for deletion and revert fair use tag." We had a discussion about this tag, after Proto disputed the replaceability of the image, yet today, with no compromise reached, he unilaterally removed my tag. Only today, therefore, I reinserted the tag.

The fact is that Proto is removing a tag he does not like, claiming he acted as an admin until now, while he was involved in the matter since the beginning.--Panarjedde 12:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed a step in my 'recap'. Image was tagged for deletion yesterday, I was patrolling C:CSD, saw it, assessed it, removed the speedy tag, and at that point, Pan immediately retagged. Apologies if that wasn't clear. Proto::type 12:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You forgot to add that the second tag was different from the first, as you proposed a fair use license that does not apply. Even if you do not agree with me, it is clear that you were involved in the matter since its beginning, and that you were not "acting as an admin", nor the dispute is between me and Kingjeff, as you claimed to justify your tag removal.--Panarjedde 12:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(from WP:AN/I)

Hello, I have an issue with User:Proto.

I added a "Replaceable fair use" tag to Image:Owenpuma.jpg. User Proto added a "Replaceable fair use disputed" tag to the same image, and we two discussed the matter on the talk page.

Today he unilaterlly removed my tag . Apart the fact I do not agree with him, when I told him not to remove tags , he answered me "the dispute is between you and Kingjeff; I have been acting as an admin the whole time. At this point, I have stepped in and removed the tag, as in my judgement the fair use assertion was correct." Please note that User:Kingjeff has nothing to do with this issue, his only edit being on the image talk page (), after Proto had put the dispute tag.

What should be done? Can he really remove the tag?--Panarjedde 12:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Misplaced Pages administrators have that authority. Justin Eiler 12:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if this is the official answer, let me say it is unfair that admins are allowed to use their authority in their own content dispute. At least, a third part opinion should be requested.--Panarjedde 12:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I agree with the tagging. the current tag says "where the image is unrepeatable, i.e. a free image could not be created to replace it". Note the could not be created, since of course someone could take a photo the image can be created to replace it thus is fails fair use. (This is not a unique image with the person doing a unique act, it's a simple photo of them) The fact that someone can't find a current one is irrelvant, one can be created. --pgk 12:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And as soon as a free image is available, then fair use no longer applies to this image. The current tag is poorly worded.Proto::type 12:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

When you say worded badly you mean it matches the fairuse policy "No free equivalent is available or could be created", again the "could be created", availability now is not part of the critera. Not to mention that the image is tagged incorrectly anyway it is from advert yet is tagged {{promophoto}}, which is (from Misplaced Pages:Image_copyright_tags) for publicity photographs of people or events, such as headshots or posed shots, from a press kit, also see Misplaced Pages:Publicity photos - an advert is not a promophoto. --pgk 12:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(The following was written before the post by pgk immediatly above)

The problem is not the content dispute (I have given my reason on the talkpage), the problem is that you removed a tag in a content dispute you were involved in, and claimed to have done it because the dispute was between me and another user, while you had just stepped in to do your admin duties.

Furthermore, I would suggest you to read WP:FU#Policy, which is an official policy of WP, which requires non-free, fair use images to be used only if "no free equivalent is available or could be created". Note it says "could be created", not "has been created".--Panarjedde 12:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Further to this the image is apparently from an advert for puma. The article to which it is attached mentions nothing about puma whatsoever, at best a fair use argument could be used for illustrating the persons association with puma but it is not being used in that way. Again the fair use policy covers this (in the counter examples) "An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses.", the fair use criteria have been significantly tightened recently and it is this sort of abuse of fair use which has prompted it. --pgk 12:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, after a read of WP:FU, I see that whilst fair use could be argued. "if the image could reasonably be replaced with a free image that would provide the same value to the reader, then it is very likely to be removed and a request made for such a free image to be obtained". Note the word 'reasonably'. I have tried to find a fre photo of Hargreaves before; none exist on the net, and I don't expect to be bumping into him any time soon to take such a photo. Therefore a fair use photo is justified.

However, this image is not strictly a publicity photo (see Misplaced Pages:Publicity photos.) Until I read this, I thought it was. It's therefore not a suitable fair use image, let alone a free one, and so I've tagged it for deletion. Proto::type 13:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, just to note the part you quote is under the guideline section a preamble. The section explicilty marked as formal policy contains the "No free equivalent is available or could be created..." text. --pgk 14:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

See Panarjedde, if you're going to bring up my name at least have the decentcy to invite me to the conversation. Kingjeff 01:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

??? Proto made your name, I simply answered him.--Panarjedde 01:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope, you are the first one on the list that I see that mentioned me. Yes, it's a quote from him. But you're not to bring me up with at least of having the respect to bring me into this. Kingjeff 01:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Post by Proto, 12:09: "Hey all. Can someone look at Image:Owenpuma.jpg and settle this, please? I don't want to start blocking people for disruption, although I'm sorely tempted, as I have already made a content judgement and so shouldn't use my admin tools. User:Panarjedde and User:Kingjeff have been squabbling over various images etc ". Care to stop feeling persecuted? Didn't they love you when you were young?--Panarjedde 01:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethicalhacker

Ethicalhacker (talk · contribs) has about 40 edits, and they're not vandalistic edits. However, I am pondering whether he/she should be blocked for user name. Thoughts? --Nlu (talk)

No, not for username in my opinion. Hacker has both positive and negative connotations, but with the Ethical tacked on, I think this is on positive side and it isn't an issue. -- JLaTondre 16:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm with JLaTondre; hacker isn't always a negative term; if all his edits are good, it would definitely be OK to let him be, IMHO. WP:BITE, too. -Patstuart 18:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

More regarding Bobabobabo

This is an e-mail I received from a person alleging herself to be Bobabobabo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s teacher:

Dear user,

Many of my students at my Private School called the "Learning Community School" are complaining about being blocked from the internet site called "Misplaced Pages The 💕". I don't know the reason for this six month ban. The private school IP is 72.177.68.38, which is located in a residential area of Austin.

I has asked some of the student if they vandalized Misplaced Pages, many of the students are bullying a student named Grace Moyle, which was a contributor of Misplaced Pages under the name Bobabobabo which what she told was having problems with some users over Pokamon articles which looking up articles not school related is against the rules, so the three students: Jene', Jessica, Aaron began creating user names and began vandalizing the pages that Bobabobabo editted. She and I talked about the bullying. I restricted the three students from using the computer until next year.

I hope you can reconsider unblocking the IP and Bobabobabo because what she has told was she being made fun.

Thank you,

Lisa Mercato

6th Grade Social Studies Teacher

It seems to have a ring of truth to it, but is sent from an yahoo.com address, which can of course be faked by anyone. It also doesn't boost my confidence that just a day earlier, Bobabobabo had (as far as i know, falsely) told me that Centrx (talk · contribs) agreed to have her block lifted. However, I agreed to post the e-mail here to ask for consensus on this. I still do not particularly endorse granting or denying this request. --Nlu (talk) 16:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a joke. The spelling (and grammar) is awful, and she would have sent it from a school email address, not yahoo. yandman 16:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's just wash our hands of this Bobabobabo business and be done with her and her school. Nlu, if you wish, I can disclose to you the email address of Bobabobabo and compare it with the email address from "Lisa Mercato." Just send me an email, and I will get back to you once I am out of my Marine Bio lecture.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 18:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

An idea: why not ask her to send an email from her .edu address in order to verify her title? I don't think that's asking too much; if we're dealing with a 6 month ban, and just considering ignoring her anyway, I don't think another day or two hastle in getting her to send it from an official address would be a problem. -Patstuart 18:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Based on that email, I wonder why the teacher is asking for the block to be lifted. The teacher realizes Bobabobabo was using school computers to edit Pokemon articles, which is against their rules. Why would a teacher ask us to lift a ban that would allow a student to go back to breaking school rules? Because she feels bad the student was bullied? Hmm...Metros232 18:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you might want to talk to Can't sleep, clown will eat me - he says he blocked it long term becuase it was an open proxy. I might point out that the teacher's claims hold up - there were a lot of Pokemon changes, but little vandalism. But as a teacher, I can understand why she would be frustrated that her class was blocked. In any case, I def advise talking to Clown. -Patstuart 18:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha, you got that email too? I got the email last week because I blocked some of the sockpuppets of Bobabobabo. They claimed it was a 6th grade student, and I still said no. I later received an email from the teacher, and then another one from "Bobabobabo". It's all BS. Nishkid64 19:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, one of the IPs was an open proxy (the website claims that it allows you to use MySpace at school). The other IP Raul654 said (when we double checked the massive sockfarm listed somewhere above) was a residential IP address, which is more than likely her own (unless the school uses Roadrunner/Comcast, whatever it was).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The "IP Info" button on the IP's talk page is a wonderful thing. I've got the school's contact e-mail and I'm writing to them myself. Durova 16:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, open proxy. What school would use that? This is nonsense from start to finish. Durova 17:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Two were open proxies, and then there was 72.177.68.38 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) which belongs to Road Runner. I am not sure about the fourth... —Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem with user about his addition to Far Above Cayuga's Waters

I reverted recently an edit from an ip . He commented on my talk page about it which was reverted, came back as a logged in user and said pretty much the same thing . Now he reinserted the edit I reverted, and claims it to be legitimate . Since I know nothing of this topic of Far Above Cayuga's Waters, and the user is accusing me of reverting a good edit, I want someone else to check it out. - Tutmosis 18:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The additions need to be sourced. If not, they should be removed. That article is rapidly becoming an original research nightmare. Chick Bowen 23:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

So it didnt come as vandalism? "Cornell eats shit, Cornell eats shit, Cornell eats shit." doesn't seem like the lyrics of Cornell University. I don't wish to revert it again because this user is accusing me of a bad revert, so in my mind such a situation calls for a second user to confirm my stance. - Tutmosis 00:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed indef-ban of User:SPUI

This user appears to have left in early October. His only edits since then have been to SQUIDWARD pages and violate 3RR. He has also been blocked many, many times before. At one point I would not have wanted him to be indefbanned, since many of his edits were good. However now he is no longer making good edits, and seems to eant to leave the community anyway.Drennleberrn 20:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

SPUI contributes in his own special way. And you seem to have only registered in the past week. How is it that you know so much about SPUI?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The edits with 'squidward' edit summaries and those which led to the 3RR violation were all perfectly valid changes. Thus, your statement that "he is no longer making good edits" is simply false. Nothing in SPUI's recent behaviour comes anywhere remotely near requiring a community ban. --CBD 11:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deleting user talk pages

As a relatively new (< 1 month) admin, I am not sure whether a user talk page with comments from other users and a {{db-author}} tag added by the user qualifies for speedy deletion. I'm inclined to say no (it's not created "in error" and it has other contributors), but am curious what others think. --Ginkgo100 22:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say no, unless the user is exercising his/her right to vanish, or there are other exceptional circumstances. People would otherwise be unable to tell if anyone has complained to the user about something (ie. test templates), and it just gets to be a gigantic pain. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I would say how {{db-author}} is applicable if the user talk page is contributed by other users? Shyam 22:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've often seen people try to get their user talk pages deleted via {{Db-userreq}}. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, these requests are often denied. For the most part, it is vandals/trolls/etc. trying to clear the history of various warnings and discussions. Of course we should assume good faith in all cases, and it's often a good idea to discuss a decision with other administrators, but for most cases user talk pages should remain intact. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 22:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

IIRC last time there was any real discussion on this the view was that even for users exercising their right to vanish we would simply blank the talk page, and use deletion primarily for scrubbing any personal info. The basic reasoning being as suggested above that their were some editors who were effectively leaving one week having their talk and user page deleted then returning the next, repeatedly (I perhaps exagerate on that, but you get the idea).--pgk 07:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The only time user talk pages are deleted is when the user is banned. Otherwise, simply blanking the page is enough, including for a user choosing to vanish. —Centrx→talk • 07:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Randomness Vandalism

Hi, I've noticed a very high level of vandalim on Randomness, the level seems to suggest some form of vendetta, having only recently started monitoring the page I'm not aware of the history. I've just noticed a named user leaving obscene messages - without knowing if there is a history I would rather not put a vandal template particularly as I'm not exactly sure of what I'm doing. --Mike 23:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:Ottl ima 010805.jpg

A decision is needed for this image. It's been beaten down by mainly me and Panarjedde. I essentially think it's a bad faith nomination and gaming the system(Please look at his record) and he's going on about it being replaceable and so on. Kingjeff 00:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to oblige this user to stop saying that my edits are bad faith ( ), gaming the system ( ), as well as some other nice things ( )? Is the fact he is not capable of reading WP:FU policy a good reason to let him insult me every time he edits an article?--Panarjedde 00:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So, I can't believe someone is doing bad faith edits and nominations? Kingjeff 01:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Getting back to this photo. All I'm asking is that an administrator deal with the photo and use sound judgement on this. Kingjeff 01:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted it. It clearly fails the criteria for fair use. --Carnildo 07:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Panarjedde/appo

What's this? This looks like a personal attack if I ever saw one. Kingjeff 02:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

A link to your userpage is not a personal attack. semper fi — Moe 02:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This is his userpage. The other is something else. It looks to me as if he's trying to personal attack? Kingjeff 03:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, there are at present no personal attacks on either page. Please read over WP:NPA so you know what a personal attack is. semper fi — Moe 03:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

To me, it looks like he's gathering evidence for an RfC or Arbcom case. That is most definitely not a form of personal attack. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 08:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandal with grudge against William Connolley the user taking it out on the William Connolley article

User:MarkThomas appears to have taken it upon himself to vandalize the William Connolley article in retribution for an earlier block dealt to him by the administrator User:William M. Connolley.

These actions have mostly included blanking (, , , , ), but also included some simple nonsense vandalism such as and . He also gave 2 rather WP:POINTed talk page suggestions here and here, and bragged about his earlier vandalism . His edit summaries have also generally be insults against Connolley.

During a short period in which he was not actively damaging the page, another user (with a similar name pattern) conveniently emerged to continue his vandalism (, ) Mark Thomas also ignored a vandalism warning left to him by another user and threatened to report me for 3RR violation for reverting his vandalism .

I request User:MarkThomas be blocked for disruption, vandalism, and most likely personal attacks as well. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 08:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours.--MONGO 12:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed one of his talk page comments as particularly abusive as well, per Misplaced Pages:remove personal attacks.. A check of the article history reveals that the user only started to edit this article, after his original 3rr imposed by Connolley had expired. Morwen - Talk 12:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And you can add Appeals to Jimbo and talk page trolling to the list of misdeeds. KillerChihuahua 12:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

And to top it all off, I've filed an WP:RFCU case on him for his abusive sockpuppet assistant User: Sarah Williams here. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 12:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser has come back, with no surprises. further ban evasion has been made. I propose to give User:MarkThomas and his sockpuppets an indefinite community ban, until such time as they admit to abusive sockpuppetry and promise to stop.

Methinks this an acceptable solution; or at least a long ban (e.g., 3-4 weeks). If he admits he did wrong and apologizes, then he's let back in. But until then, a community ban seems acceptable. The 3-4 weeks might be enough, though, to get him to think about his conduct, and reconsider in the future.-Patstuart 00:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Reading misogynist comment makes me reconsider. Perhaps a community ban is better until he admits contrition. -Patstuart 00:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice that comment on my talk page, actually. I love the way he plays the sexist card at me for no good reason. Also, I think that his creation of additional sock User:DecadentAdminAttacker proves he's not particularly repentant. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 00:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think his present behaviour is so out of the pale it cannot really be tolerated. This is not to preclude that he can stop at any time. However, an indef block at this stage may just further inflame the grudge and lose all hope of redemption. Shall we see how he is over next couple of days and do this if needed? Morwen - Talk 00:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

There is only really one question to be answered here, which is: do we think this user is likely to calm down and resume making good edits? If we do, then we should ban him, as a community act, from the William Connolley article, and possibly place him on civility parole. If we think that he is never going to reform then we should show him the door. I lean to the former view myself. Either way, he can challenge a community sanction via ArbCom and we can restrict by block any disruption in the mean time. Guy 14:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems a reasonable approach. Morwen - Talk 16:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This does not look like your routine frustrated POV-pusher, so I've left a note on his Talk advising that, if he has a beef with William, he take it to dispute resolution rather than waging war. I suspect he will calm down when he returns. I am not sure whether we should press for an apology, probably not worth it. Guy 18:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you examined the disputed edits he made at George Galloway? The checkuser case above has links to them. They do seem incompatible with WP:BLP. Morwen - Talk 19:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFSL

I have written a proposal for a hybrid between RfC, Arbcom and the Community Ban and named it WP:RFSL. It is intended to be an RFC with teeth (or faster Arbcom that works be Admins not by Arbitrators or Community ban with discussions). What do you think? Will it work? Can it be abused? Alex Bakharev 09:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I'm not an expert at RfCs, though... What is an "RfC with teeth"? If during an RfC strong remedies are proposed and endorsed by a substantial number of editors, I don't see why such strong measures from a regular RfC couldn't be enforced. So, if regular RfCs have no teeth it's because nobody proposes or endorses stringent messures. A regular RfC has the advantage over this new RfS proposal that the decision-making isn't limited to admins. I don't particularly like the idea of giving admins a role akin to an "arbcom-at-large" or "ad-hoc arbcom". On the other hand, this is what sometimes happens anyway at WP:AN/I, so maybe this could be seen as a formalization of an existing informal process... There's also the timing question. New ArbCom elections are upcoming: why not wait and see whether the newly constituted ArbCom manages to work more speditively? Lupo 10:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you read Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing? Durova 15:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This needs to dovetail with Misplaced Pages:Community sanction a new policy written to document our recent community probations. I mention on the talk page that user conduct RFCs can be a starting place for community sanctions. I did so because currently a RFC has a motion for community santions. FloNight 21:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Both WP:DE and Misplaced Pages:Community sanction are very good policies, IMHO. The policies are new maybe we should see if they will work. I was thinking among other thinks about some cases like WP:AN/I#Homeontherange_Again there many admins insist on permaban, but some does not agree. In that case some structured way to deal with the problem faster then through arbcom may help. Also if there was a process to have a consensus solution for the chronic revert wars (like "if we allowed to name Moldavian language as Romanian language?", "if Category:Genocide suitable for Holodomor", "when it is appropriate to use word liberate", etc it would be a breeze. Alex Bakharev 23:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What new ground would this proposal cover? If there's a lot of overlap then it may be more effective to propose this as an addition to some existing guideline. Durova 03:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• That is a good point. I'd say it overlaps a lot with Misplaced Pages:Community sanction, so I've put on a merge tag. >Radiant< 09:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that they will combine well. The Community sanction policy is written to reflect the new practices that have emerged over the last few months. It is flexible with no particular way to reach consensus for community sanctions. WP:RFSL does not describe a current community practice. It appears to be a more rigid process than the community wants to use. Instead I think that user conduct RFCs will be a spring board for community sanctions in some instances. Overtime when this happens we can document it with policy. Thoughts? FloNight 15:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think RFSL is too process-heavy. The problem with RFC (or one of the potential problems) is that if there is consensus that an editor's behavior is a problem but the editor doesn't agree, there is no enforcement mechanism but to take it to Arbitration. Rather than adding yet another step in the dispute resolution process, Community sanction becomes the enforcement mechanism for RFC. When there is strong consensus that action needs to be taken, the participants can bring their case here. I expect that once it becomes more widely known that admins are willing to enforce article bans, revert paroles, and so on, there will be a lot less dead-end RFCs. Thatcher131 15:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Plus the fact that as Flo says, Community sanction is something we are already willing to do, RFSL is an eniterly new thing which will likely attract a lot of debate if we try to implement it. Thatcher131 15:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually WP:DE links RfC to community sanctions, although only in cases where uninvolved editors form the consensus. Is that the difference here? 72.199.30.31 17:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

(de-indent) I dislike this idea. Administrators and regular editors are NOT different classes of users here and the opinion of an administrator is not intrinsically worth more then that of a user. ---J.S (t|c) 18:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Which idea? I'm starting to lose the thread here. Thatcher131 19:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Help at WP:CSD

There's over 150 articles, including nearly 80 images awaiting deletion. I've done 40 so far but my internet's crapping out horribly. I'd appreciate some help :) Luigi30 (Taλk) 14:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Down to images, but I don't trust my school's connection. I leave it in your hands. Luigi30 (Taλk) 14:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This message shows up so often...I'm wondering if we could have some bot put a message here when the backllog is at 100+ articles, or something like that. Hbdragon88 22:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Unblocking collateral damage assistance required

Hello! I have received the following e-mail from Feedmelinguini:

"I have been blocked for "persistent vandalism." The full text of the message is "Your account or IP address has been blocked from editing. You were blocked by (aeropagitica) for the following reason (see our blocking policy): persistent vandalism. Your IP address is 65.43.196.16." I am confused as to why this would occur. My changes to webpages have been primarily spelling errors, as well as an occasional substantive change. Never have I vandalized any page, and I am not sure why I have been accused of having done so. Your response is greatly appreciated."

The Talk page for this editor reveals an unblock for collateral damage on September 13. I need to know how to determine which block of mine would result in this autoblock in order to unblock and reblock allowing logged-in editors to contribute. Find the editors' IP address? (aeropagitica) 16:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, just checking the block log of 65.43.196.16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) shows you blocked it for persistent vandalism last week. Whois shows it's a school IP, so I unblocked and reblocked anon only for another week to round out your original block. Thatcher131 17:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks! I wonder why I couldn't find it? (aeropagitica) 18:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you were thinking too hard. It wasn't an autoblock, just a straight IP block, and he gave you the address :) Thatcher131 18:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you searched for 65.43.196.16 in the block log, when you need to search for "User:65.43.196.16" in the blockee column. I've always wished it would search consistently in both fields. - Taxman 19:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like the mistake! Note to self - must try to be a better admin :-) (aeropagitica) 22:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please delete

Would someone please delete the redirect Medical assistant so I can move the Medical Assistant (MA) article to that title? -THB 17:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, and I made the move too. Can you clean up a few of the articles that link to Medical Assistant (MA)? I see this has already been done in the past and somebody moved it from Medical assistant to Medical Assistant (MA) without much justification. Oh well. - Taxman 19:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thanks for your (extra!) help! -THB 19:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Making a similar request here: can an admin remove the redirect RPG Maker so the RPG Maker Series article can be moved to that space? NeoChaosX (he shoots, he scores!) 18:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

C.J. and C. J.

Not sure what to do on this one... I know that C.J. redirected to an article on gossip columnist C. J., but after a page vandalism, both pages seem to not exist. There's not a history that I can see to revert to. CMacMillan 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

C. J. was speedy deleted under WP:CSD A7. _└  / _talk  20:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Indiana University Kokomo

This article is like a redirect to itself and in the history it reveals no content whatsoever and just a few pagemoves (one of which was "On Wheels"). Could an admin look through the deleted history of Indiana University Kokomo and the deleted version of the On Wheels version (it's in the history for the exact location and readd some content? semper fi — Moe 21:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I got it. Did I lose any of the history? Seems like it's all there. Chick Bowen 21:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you got it. The literal history is gone though.. semper fi — Moe 21:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I had some cache problems, but once I cleared it the good history reappeared. I restored 24 version, so there should be 24. Chick Bowen 21:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

List of best-selling computer and video games

Any administrator around willing to wade in ankle-deep mud? List of best-selling computer and video games has been a battlefield for some time, and most (if not all) tries to calm both users down have failed. I don't want to send someone from Misplaced Pages:Third opinion there, he would be eaten alive. If not for the 3RR, the article history would be right now HUGE. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 21:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Just get someone from third here and report it if "he gets eaten alive". An admin who would get into the dispute won't be able to block anyone because admins aren't supposed to block people or protect pages in disputes that they are involved in. Hbdragon88 22:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Is anyone arguing for "WhiteMinority"'s point, besides himself? It looks pretty well consensus-ized to the other side. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm arguing for WhiteMinority's point. Also in the Wikiproject Computer and Video Games disccusion discussion there were a couple of users, notably User:A Man In Black who argued that the links should not be removed. Dionyseus 22:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Okeedokee. It's just hard to wade through all of that :/ -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 22:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think AMiB has ever argued in defense of vgcharts. He simply made sure that there was a discussion before people started removing the links left right and centre. -- Steel 22:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, my intention was not getting an admin blocking the users, but instead to keep an eye on that page. During the last months the article has advanced very little, because most of the revisions are either adding or removing VGCharts. I am pretty neutral about this issue (I think both sides are right), but it is just too much a pain to review the different versions to see if a valid reference was deleted in the middle of the reverts. -- ReyBrujo 02:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Categories' order within an article

I was quite certain there was a guideline—or at least a consensus—that categories should be arranged in alphabetical order within articles, in part because sorting by relevance is a subjective exercise at best. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Darned if I can find it... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 00:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that's the procedure for interwiki links, but I don't specifically remember seeing anything like that for categories. Couldn't hurt though. --Daniel Olsen 00:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it appears there isn't one. I've begun a discussion toward that aim. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 00:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought it was alphabetical too, but I can't remember if years categories (like Category:1945 births are sorted before or after the alphanumeric categories. Hbdragon88 01:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Definitely before; but I don't want to search for it again ;) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 01:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Flowering plant

The Flowering plant page is a big blank, not just blanked text, but blanked everything except for a single line on the very top saying java text blah blah. What is this? All the other pages look like Misplaced Pages pages. Oh well, I tried to edit it and it worked. Maybe some is drastically wrong with the bot that did the last edit, though? Or something. KP Botany 01:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Probably just a brief Misplaced Pages software hiccup. --Carnildo 02:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it looks fine now, I was able to edit it by looking at my watchlist and picking an older version, then editing the latest without accessing the article page directly. Yup, probably a hiccup, but one I'd never seen before. --KP Botany 02:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Moving Karnatka cities

Should we put a stop to this? There certainly wasn't any non-Indian input, or if there was, it wasn't advertised, and it's certainly in opposition to policy. While we're at it, why don't we move India to Bharat? User:Zoe|(talk) 04:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, policy is that bold moves are fine as long as no one objects, but people have, so yes, I think the discussion you link to is not sufficient consensus. It also seems weird in that the official name changes have not taken place yet, as far as I've heard. If the government of India calls it Bangalore, and most English speakers call it Bangalore, then it should probably be at Bangalore. So yeah, they should run it through WP:RM, and consensus will probably go the other way, I suspect. Chick Bowen 05:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:RM backlog

The backlog at WP:RM is now really big, and a helping hand would be welcome. I don't have much time myself at the moment though. Duja► 09:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Email on "how wikipedia really works" by User:Tern

Did anyone else recently receive a lengthy (ranting) e-mail from a person claiming to be Tern (talk · contribs) with the subject linke "how wikipedia really works"? --ZimZalaBim (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Not me but i suggest you use a spam filter if you got it and ignore the issue. I see that this issue has been taking a long time. Zscout370 was the first to block his account on August 2005. -- Szvest 15:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. I blanked his Talk, since it was one long diatribe. Clearly this person is unfamiliar with the old adage "when you are in a deep hole, stop digging". Guy 18:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Vivaldi

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

Preying from the Pulpit, First Baptist Church of Hammond, Jack Hyles, Hyles-Anderson College, and any related article which contains poorly sourced controversial material are placed on article probation. The material in dispute between Vivaldi and Arbustoo has been determined to be controversial material which does not have an adequate source. They are warned to avoid edit warring and encouraged to edit the articles in dispute appropriately.

For the Arbitration Committee --Srikeit 18:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Admin Act seems questionable

Can someone please review the precipitous action by Admin Carnildo on a fair use image deleted before the time limit, so far as I can see. I've been away and am still extremly busy, but what seemed to be some edit warring I looked in on as a Member's Advocate has me scratching my head as the image policies seem to now be applied contrary to common sense and way, way beyond legal needs. Template:ISee Part-II of User_talk:Carnildo#Missing_information. This is the section in /Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion-- which also seems to be part edit war. Thanks // FrankB 21:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

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