Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:11, 12 November 2018

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

	The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 19, 2006.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 27, 2005 Peer review Reviewed February 23, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted November 12, 2009 Featured article review Demoted
Current status: Former featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jewish history High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Books This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Russia: Language & literature / History / Religion / Demographics & ethnography High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the language and literature of Russia task force. This article is supported by the history of Russia task force. This article is supported by the religion in Russia task force. This article is supported by the demographics and ethnography of Russia task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Alternative views This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

This page is not a forum for general discussion about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion at the Reference desk.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral? A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud. Q: So Misplaced Pages is saying that there was not a secret Jewish conspiracy to rule the world? A: That is an entirely separate issue from the established fact that the Protocols is fraudulent. Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR? A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it. Q: But if the fraud is a well-established fact, why do some groups still assert that the Protocols is a genuine document? A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all. Q: But you can't disprove the contention that a bunch of Jews got together sometime in the mid-19th century and plotted a conspiracy, can you? A: As already stated, the conspiracy issue is not relevant to this article. But to answer your question, if one was told that the Moon is a giant ball of Gouda cheese covered with a foot-thick layer of dirt, it would be their responsibility to prove them.

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

Author unknown?

In the infobox, we say that the author of this document is unknown, but most credible sources say that it was authored by Matvei Golovinski of the Okhrana, since the opening of Russia's archives and the information becoming available to historical researchers. That is how the French Misplaced Pages (which tends to be of a higher intellectual quality than the English Misplaced Pages... just saying) has it. Claíomh Solais (talk) 16:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

That's nice; the assertion in fr:Les Protocoles des Sages de Sion is unsourced, so can you furnish a reliable secondary source (which are required on the English Misplaced Pages where we are all intellectually slumming.) 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 23:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The Golovinski/Okhrana story was given in evidence by one person (du Chayla) at the Bern Trial in return for the payment of 4000 Swiss Francs (a large sum in those days). Du Chayla had an unsavory past, including writing in support of the Blood Libel. Du Chayla's evidence was widely accepted as definitive, but recent research by de Michelis, Hagameister and others has shown that there is no evidence in support of it. There is in fact no evidence of Okhrana involvement and some evidence against it. The true author of the Protocols is unknown, just like our article says. Zero 13:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Removed additions made to article by editor blocked for being disruptive

Claíomh Solais was blocked today for disruptive editing, see . Among the evidence presented that resulted in the block were diffs that show "a strong undercurrent of anti-semitism". Therefore I do not think it is right that the section Claíomh Solais re-wrote, "Political conspiracy background" should stay as he altered it. I have put it back to the version before that editor's edits began. If anyone feels there was valuable information there, they can restore it. ThanksSmeat75 (talk) 00:05, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you cannot take a general statement about the editor's contributions and act on it in specific cases unless you actually make the case that their edits degarded the article. In other words, please tell us specifically what in CS's changes did not improve the article, or were unsupported by sources, or violated OR or other policies. A general statement is not sufficient. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:12, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Why do you want to keep the additions made by an editor blocked partly for having ""a strong undercurrent of anti-semitism"" to the article on the most notorious anti-semitic forgery in history? This editor has been "blocked with an expiration time of indefinite" .Smeat75 (talk) 00:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I looked at the text and I think it could be useful after some careful review. At the moment the sourcing is not clear as some parts have no source and some are sourced to the nonexistent "Webman 2012". I believe it should be Webman's 2011 book "The Global Impact..." which does have relevant material on page 60. Zero 01:42, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know who is the blocked user, but his edits in this particular article seem appropriate and constructive, just like some of his additions in the article about antisemitism. Also bear in mind that the fact that a user was blocked for something doesn't necessarily mean we are supposed to revert all his contributions.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 01:53, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Edit warring

I've fully protected this article for 3 days. Please discuss your content disputes here on the talk page rather than edit-warring, which is unhelpful to all. Thanks. Fish+Karate 08:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Suggested Corrections to avoid false claims.

I'm not sure it's true to claim that the document is a forgery (copy), since it reproduces nothing, and seeks no profit from false attribution. It is either a fiction, propaganda, or hoax. For example, Crichton's Eaters of the Dead is a fictional account attributed to Ibn Fadlan - it is a fiction, but not propaganda. The Voynich Manuscript is a Hoax - but not propaganda or fiction. The Protocols are clearly a Hoax, and clearly Propaganda. So, as far as I know 'inflationary language' (misrepresenting it as a crime) is a form of deception just as pseudoscientific claims (not following the scientific method's warranty of due diligence), and pseudo-rational (sophistry) are a deception. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:188:4100:1304:81A5:A7AD:18E3:DA3D (talk) 15:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

It is a forgery in the sense that it claims to have been written by Jews, and just because it doesn't seek a financial profit doesn't mean there's not a motive. Crichton would acknowledge that Eaters of the Dead is fiction, the author of the Protocols claimed that it was real. We're not playing the middle ground because that would just please the antisemites who insist that it's real. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:08, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Well you're just as bad as they are then. And I'll let my objection stand. It's absolutely positively not a copy (forgery). It MAY be a fraud (if for money) and it is certainly a hoax and propaganda. It's not a middle ground position - it's a falsehood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:188:4100:1304:81A5:A7AD:18E3:DA3D (talk) 15:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

We're not going to downplay the falsehood of the Protocols. The only people who want to are antisemitic trolls who want to pull a "fine people on both sides" argument. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:55, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - I am going to disagree with both sides here. First: In English 'forgery' does not exclusively mean "fake copies" of a thing, it can also be used to refer to fakes made "in imitation of" or "falsely claimed to be by" among other things. Also, as mentioned above, profit (financial or otherwise) is not a prerequisite of a 'forgery' (although the people who created this one did so with full intention to use it and benefit from it). However I can understand why a person might think in terms of a more limited definition of the term, especially if English is not their first language. Second: Disputing the most-correct terminology to describe the nature of this hoax is not proof of anti-semitism or bad faith. The commenter has agreed that this was a hoax (though even that would still be a fair question in an open debate, but one that is already reasonably well-answered with WP:Facts and WP:RS in the article). This is not about WP:GEVAL, it is a technical point about terminology. With respect, the editor is over-reacting here and failing to WP:AGF. 23.91.234.76 (talk) 09:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• The Protocols are not so much a forgery as they are a hoax. They are not what they are held out to be. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Forgery or Hoax. I undid the collapse, for which there is no rule-based justification. About the dispute, forgery or hoax, I have to say that it is one of the dumbest I've seen in the encyclopedia in recent years. An argument based on word meaning can only proceed on the basis of an interpretation of one or both words more narrow than their usual meanings. There is a difference though: a "forgery" is a thing, but a "hoax" can also be an idea, claim, event, etc.. A fake news story that says aliens have landed is a hoax, but a photoshopped NYT cover that appears to confirm it is a forgery. In general, a forgery is a hoax (supports a hoax, etc, choose your wording), but not necessarily vice versa.

All of this is beside the point, since it matters not a flea's fart what word we think is correct. Have you all forgotten WP:NOR? Check what the sources use and follow them! Well, I looked at every item in the Bibliography section of the article, except for two (Luthi and Pipes) that I can't immediately access. I tried to not count words used in quotation. In the cases of Cohn and De Michelis, I only have their books on paper and searched about 50 pages.

The results: Ben-Itto and David use both "hoax" and "forgery" repeatedly. Carroll, Chanes, Jacobs and Singerman use "hoax" once but "forgery" multiple times. Bernstein, Bronner, Cohn, Graves, Hagemeister, Kellogg and Webman strongly prefer "forgery". De Michelis doesn't care about labels but introduces the document as "fake". Klier only has one sentence, which uses "fabricated". I also checked 9 additional academic articles specifically on the Protocols that I happen to have on my computer. Levy uses both "hoax" and "forgery" repeatedly. Five extra articles by Hagemeister, and articles of Burtsev, Bytwerk and Hasian, strongly prefer "forgery".

From this is it clear that many sources have a preference for "forgery" over "hoax", and none have a preference for "hoax" over "forgery". So there is no rule-based case for us to prefer "hoax". Personally I like "a forgery and a plagiarism" that Richard Levy uses in his first sentence. Even though he is the only one with exactly that word combination, it encapsulates the overwhelming consensus of the sources that the work is a forgery which is based in large part on earlier writings. Zero 05:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Ah.... if the debate is so "dumb", then why did you just spend four paragraphs and the time necessary to research them putting forward your point of view? If it was worth your time and effort, then it ain't so "dumb" after all. The fact of the matter is, both "forgery" and "hoax" are used, and we are not limited to using just one of them, we can used both, as the Protocols are both, depending on from what perspective you look at them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

It's not dumb to raise the issue, but it is dumb to edit-war over it. Zero 01:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Point taken. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:10, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Proposed rollback

I am proposing a rollback of the article to to version 867831438 of 08:15, November 8, 2018, to remove a series of two dozen edits in the last 24 hours that were either inconsequential sentence reordering or minor changes of words, or were detrimental to the clarity and flow of the prose in small ways, and that taken as a whole, have not improved the article and been disruptive of editors’ time. For more detail, please see User talk:Chas. Caltrop#The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Mathglot (talk) 05:21, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I have WP:BOLDly rolled back to the version in question. Coretheapple (talk) 05:25, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I endorse the rollback. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree. William Avery (talk) 09:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

A reply to the page owners

I have edited the article to remove the POV-pushing, which, curiously, always identifies the Jews as Jews, yet, for example, the American historian Daniel Pipes is NOT identified as a Christian historian. Please, identify specific factual faults with the content, not just opinions about how you just don't like it. Be specific, give examples of deleterious edits. I've copied your complaint from my personal page to this article Talk page, where it belongs; volume is not fact, just game-playing with the rules.

Regards,

Chas. Caltrop (talk) 10:03, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Please stop your long series of edits which in no way improve the article The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There are somewhere between fifteen and twenty-five recent edits of yours with edit summaries like, ‘’CE; full facts, narrative flow’’ (or similar) which make trivial changes of wording or sentence order, some of which are not harmful but neither are they an improvement, and others of which are detrimental.  What is your goal, here?  Are you trying to rack up a large number of edits or are you genuinely trying to improve the article, because I am at a loss to see any overall improvement to the article at all, after two dozen edits by you.  This is becoming disruptive of other editors’ time, who have to come in behind you and examine the changes, cleaning up where necessary.

Your editing at this article is starting to become disruptive.  In addition,

this diff spans 32 edits of yours in the last 24 hours (including a smattering by other editors attempting fixes), and I fail to see any overall improvement in the article in that span.  Can you give a good reason why the article should not be rolled back to version 867831438 of 08:15, November 8, 2018?  Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 05:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I’ve opened a section at Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion#Proposed rollback concerning this to see if there is consensus for a rollback.  Mathglot (talk) 05:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The edits in question are manifestly unnecessary and unhelpful and have been reverted to this diff. User Caltrop, if you don't care to discuss the edits that you have made, feel free to not do so but there is an apparent consensus that you are wasting time by making unnecessary edits to the article that do not improve it. Coretheapple (talk) 05:33, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

User Caltrop, I hope this puts an end to your disruption at this article.  If not, I call your attention to this AN/I discussion where you were apparently reported for exactly the same behavior.  Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 05:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages former featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Jewish history-related articles
• High-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• B-Class Book articles
• WikiProject Books articles
• B-Class Russia articles
• High-importance Russia articles
• High-importance B-Class Russia articles
• B-Class Russia (language and literature) articles
• Language and literature of Russia task force articles
• B-Class Russia (history) articles
• History of Russia task force articles
• B-Class Russia (religion) articles
• Religion in Russia task force articles
• B-Class Russia (demographics and ethnography) articles
• Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force articles
• WikiProject Russia articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• Unassessed Alternative views articles
• Unknown-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• B-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles