| Revision as of 14:25, 27 November 2018 editThryduulf (talk | contribs)Oversighters, Administrators98,871 edits →Off-wiki contact: reply in the general case← Previous edit | Revision as of 16:08, 27 November 2018 edit undoPaul August (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators205,015 edits →Off-wiki contactNext edit → | ||
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| *] is only relevant if the off-wiki contact is actually harrassment. Of which there is no evidence here. Unless you are going to take the extreme view that merely talking to someone off-wiki about a dispute they are engaged in consitutes harrassment, which would be idiotic. ] directly links to ] as an example. Where someone is open about their identity it is not cyberstalking. ] (]) 13:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC) | *] is only relevant if the off-wiki contact is actually harrassment. Of which there is no evidence here. Unless you are going to take the extreme view that merely talking to someone off-wiki about a dispute they are engaged in consitutes harrassment, which would be idiotic. ] directly links to ] as an example. Where someone is open about their identity it is not cyberstalking. ] (]) 13:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC) | ||
| **(a reminder that I'm speaking only about the general case) Just because somebody is open about their identity does not mean they automatically consent to being contacted off-wiki, either generally or by specific methods and/or about all matters. If they have made a phone number clearly available to editors then that is different to an editor who is public about their real name and employer being telephoned at work via the company switchboard regarding matters unrelated to their employment which is different again to calling someone on a personal phone number you found via the website of a local community organisation they volunteer for, which you found via a mention on their social media profile, which you found via searching on their name (mentioned on their userpage) and location (which you inferred from a discussion on the talk page of the article about that place). The latter is unquestionably stalking and unequestionably a site-banning offence, but as TB notes it is the arbitration committee who are the only people able to determine what the full circumstances were. ] (]) 14:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) | **(a reminder that I'm speaking only about the general case) Just because somebody is open about their identity does not mean they automatically consent to being contacted off-wiki, either generally or by specific methods and/or about all matters. If they have made a phone number clearly available to editors then that is different to an editor who is public about their real name and employer being telephoned at work via the company switchboard regarding matters unrelated to their employment which is different again to calling someone on a personal phone number you found via the website of a local community organisation they volunteer for, which you found via a mention on their social media profile, which you found via searching on their name (mentioned on their userpage) and location (which you inferred from a discussion on the talk page of the article about that place). The latter is unquestionably stalking and unequestionably a site-banning offence, but as TB notes it is the arbitration committee who are the only people able to determine what the full circumstances were. ] (]) 14:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) | ||
| * I strongly agree with what Thryduulf has written above. Let me share a painful personal anecdote. Many years ago, I learned a hard lesson and lost a friend. I was very much worried about the health of a dear Wiki-friend who wasn't editing, and email correspondent who wasn't responding to emails. We had shared real names and other personal info, so it was easy to find their phone number and give them a call. They were shocked and angry that I had done so. Even though we were close wiki-friends, nevertheless they found a phone call a terrible invasion of their privacy. Looking back, it now seems obvious to me why. So if such an intrusion can feel deeply creepy, even from a worried "friend" how would it likely feel from a stranger? ] ] 16:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 16:08, 27 November 2018
 | The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic. |
 | This page is only for discussion of the policy and not for reporting cases of harassment; if you require information on dealing with harassment click here. Thank you for your time. |
Shooting the messenger as a policy?
I'm concerned by a comment here, User_talk:Jytdog#Redundant_one-way_IBANs,_etc.
definitely seems to be hounding you (he's edited two ANI threads in the last sixteen months, both related to you, and his comments in both have been serving to undermine you, which would be suspicious enough if he had no prior history with you whatsoever),
So, if someone is regularly named at ANI, and another party comments upon them (not even filing the ANI), then the problem is with the commenter, rather than the person who keeps being reported to ANI? Is this to be any part of our HOUNDING policy or practice? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
- I think that this question comes in the context of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#One-way IBAN proposed, and it seems to me that there is an irony in citing the hounding policy based on looking at comments made at the other editor's user talk page. Whether the problem is with the editor making a report or with the editor being reported is a function of the legitimacy of the report, which is why we have WP:Boomerang. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
- Clearly it was triggered by that ANI thread, although I don't quite follow what your point is here. My observations are two-fold:
- At that ANI thread, there are two themes. One is "Why is Andy complaining of things that happened a long time ago?" and the other is, "Andy is Bad, he has run a long-standing campaign of harassment." Now, apart from me seeing the second of these as a long-standing series of unactioned complaints at ANI about the same editor and their actions elsewhere (I'm not the one making paid editor and SPI allegations), there's a clear disjoint about how long a window is to be allowed for the consideration of past events - and subjectively shifting that around obviously changes the weighting.
- Secondly, in the case linked here, there's a messenger being described as
who definitely seems to be hounding you (he's edited two ANI threads in the last sixteen months, both related to you, and his comments in both have been serving to undermine you
. So how do we interpret that? Is that a long-running problem, or a non-problem with an over-zealous reporter? We seem to be inconsistent and far too subjective in how this is regarded. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:45, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- Clearly it was triggered by that ANI thread, although I don't quite follow what your point is here. My observations are two-fold:
How do you report harassment?
Sorry if I missed it, but I didn't read anything about how or where to report harassment. Thank you. Holy (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- I reported it at ANI. If you see more, edit that section at ANI. There's no need to go into detail for a clear case like this, just mention user names. Ask at my talk if needed. Johnuniq (talk) 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
- For garden-variety Wiki harassment like this, yes, WP:ANI is the place. In cases with serious real-world implications better to email emergency@wikimedia.org both for privacy reasons and to reach people who can do something about it. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:59, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Off-wiki contact
I've come across a situation that seems concerning, but I don't want to make a fuss over it in case it proves to be nothing. We have two editors in a dispute - one experienced, one not. The inexperienced editor has not enabled email, nor created a userpage, but at some point in the past included details about their involvement in an event as part of an edit summary and has been open about their identity. The experienced editor used those details to track down their phone number and call them off-wiki about the dispute. It isn't outing, in that the editor did reveal the personal details. However, if an editor chooses not to enable email, should other editors be contacting them off-wiki during disputes? Is this something we should be worried about, or just something that happens and is outside of the policy's scope? - Bilby (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- That was me and the presentation is skewed. I don't mind making it clear. The other person has a very strong advocacy issue and has been floundering, and wasting the time of multiple people with 3O requests as you can see at Talk:Specific Carbohydrate Diet, and was in the process of getting themselves blocked for edit warring (they are indeed blocked now).
- The person had left an edit note clearly identifying off-WP information (diff - the abstract is easy to find).
- The situation went very downhill today (they edit warred against 2 3O helpers) and as it did, I thought about how to help them. I checked and they do indeed not have email enabled. I had already gone and found the abstract to try to understand where they are coming from (what they are doing is baffling), and it has a phone number. So... I called to try to help them -- that was truly my intention. At the start of the call I introduced myself and asked if they were willing to try to talk, and they said "yes". I asked for consent and obtained it. I would not have been surprised, had they said "no", and was ready to end the discussion there.
- Unfortunately, they turned out to be just as combative and unwilling to learn on the phone as they have been on-WP, so I ended the call, abruptly. (The abrupt ending is entirely on me.) It was an effort to help that did not go well for either of us. I have had off-WP communication with other advocates and conflicted editors that went well and clarified things that were causing them problems, and that is what I was hoping for.
- I debated whether to post here but due to the presentation, which leads one to believe that I called to harass the person and continue the dispute, and which leaves out the crucial detail that the first thing I did was ask for consent, I felt little choice. I do appreciate that there is no claim of OUTING, at least. Jytdog (talk) 04:55, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- The issue remains then, should an editor use information revealed on WP to track down the phone number of an editor (whom they are in an active dispute with) and phone them
at their workplace, when that editor has not given permission to be contacted in this manner and has not enabled off-wiki communication through email or any other means? Would this come under the existing harassment policy? Or is it otherwise out of scope? - Bilby (talk) 06:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)- Your framing is still showing, Bilby. Try "bending over backwards to try help a new editor understand what we do here," or if you want to cast it as an actual dispute, try "trying to work things out by talking, simply, as the first step in DR, with a person who can't figure out how to use WP" as alternative framings. You are trying very hard to make this stalker-y. I also am not sure where you are getting "at their workplace". Jytdog (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- Talking is great. Perhaps that is better handled, though, on WP than through using information they provided to track down their phone number and ring them directly, without their permission, using contact information which they never provided. As someone who has been on the receiving end of calls from editors who have tracked down my details and rung me at work during disputes, it is more than a little disturbing when it happens. But I did want this to be a general discussion, not specific to you. If I wanted this specific to you I would have asked elsewhere. - Bilby (talk) 07:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- I handled the permission aspect as well as I could, by asking if they were willing to talk, the very first thing, and I have already explained that I reached out in this way because things had deteriorated rapidly today as the person demonstrated that they could not use the WP platform well.
- You are continuing to strain to frame this negatively. You are also continuing to assert "workplace", multiple times. (I don't know if it is any better than "at home" or "on their personal cellphone". I have no idea what the number was that I called and am uncertain on what basis you keep making the "workplace" claim.) Jytdog (talk) 08:04, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- And your opening statement is 100% about this specific situation. Not a general discussion, as you just stated. Jytdog (talk) 08:10, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- If I wanted it to be about you, I would have mentioned you. I didn't. If you hadn't come in and said "this is about me" I would not have mentioned you at all. I understand why you are saying you contacted the editor. My problem is not why you contacted the editor, but how. And the general issue is under what circumstances someone should be contacting an editor in real life when their contact details have not been provided on wiki. - Bilby (talk)
- Talking is great. Perhaps that is better handled, though, on WP than through using information they provided to track down their phone number and ring them directly, without their permission, using contact information which they never provided. As someone who has been on the receiving end of calls from editors who have tracked down my details and rung me at work during disputes, it is more than a little disturbing when it happens. But I did want this to be a general discussion, not specific to you. If I wanted this specific to you I would have asked elsewhere. - Bilby (talk) 07:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- Your framing is still showing, Bilby. Try "bending over backwards to try help a new editor understand what we do here," or if you want to cast it as an actual dispute, try "trying to work things out by talking, simply, as the first step in DR, with a person who can't figure out how to use WP" as alternative framings. You are trying very hard to make this stalker-y. I also am not sure where you are getting "at their workplace". Jytdog (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- The issue remains then, should an editor use information revealed on WP to track down the phone number of an editor (whom they are in an active dispute with) and phone them
- Calling another editor over the phone for the first time is a stronger form of contact than usual. It can be perceived positively or negatively, depending on whether the contacted person is satisfied or not with the result, how unexpected it is to them that their contact details were found, etc.
- I actually think that the "workplace" point is not entirely irrelevant: with cultural institutions, for instance, it's not uncommon to go out of our way to help someone who we feel may be unaccustomed to on-wiki processes. Some of them may expect to serve and interact with the public as part of their work; it's not the same as being called at the office for an edit you made in the evening about a personal interest, or vice versa. Nemo 10:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- Entirely inappropriate. Looking up an editor's undisclosed personal info to contact them about a dispute, even if you're pulling that info from freely-available sources, is 100% cyberstalking, creepy as hell, and disgusting. This has happened to me exactly twice, both times at work, and the police were called both times as well as contacting WMF Legal, and I would advise any editor who gets an unsolicited off-wiki contact to do the same. If you're an editor doing this you should be sitebanned. Ivanvector (/Edits) 11:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- For clarity, what WP policy or what law has been violated? Also, has there been a specific claim of harassment on the part of the other party? This has been brought by a third party asking general questions.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 12:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)- @Borean Hunter: I read Ivanvector's comments as being about the general case in response to the general questions. In the general case I also agree that unsolicited contacting of another editor, regarding any Misplaced Pages matter, using any contact method they have not explicitly made available on wiki (or to you specifically) is an example of Misplaced Pages:Off-wiki harassment - doubly so if you are involved in a dispute with them, regardless of the circumstances of that dispute. What is "made available on wiki" can be a grey area, but if they've posted a link to their/their organisation's website which has a prominent contacts page then using the methods listed on that page would not involve stalking but might still be inappropriate and could still be perceived as harassment (depending on the context). If you have to actively search or dig for the contact details though then that is never appropriate. Anyone intentionally stalking or otherwise harassing another editor should indeed be site banned - this should be reported to the arbitration committee (by email in most cases). Thryduulf (talk) 13:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- For clarity, what WP policy or what law has been violated? Also, has there been a specific claim of harassment on the part of the other party? This has been brought by a third party asking general questions.
- If the claim is that laws were violated, the editor who was harassed off-site should seek legal counsel in their jurisdiction (not a legal threat, generic advice I would give anyone who feels they are facing off-wiki harassment.)If they feel the contact violated our norms on harassment they should contact the arbitration committee, who are the only body able to fully deal with this on-wiki. We shouldn’t be using this talk page to decide a particular case, and that’s kinda what’s happening here. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- WP:OWH is only relevant if the off-wiki contact is actually harrassment. Of which there is no evidence here. Unless you are going to take the extreme view that merely talking to someone off-wiki about a dispute they are engaged in consitutes harrassment, which would be idiotic. WP:OWH directly links to WP:NPA as an example. Where someone is open about their identity it is not cyberstalking. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- (a reminder that I'm speaking only about the general case) Just because somebody is open about their identity does not mean they automatically consent to being contacted off-wiki, either generally or by specific methods and/or about all matters. If they have made a phone number clearly available to editors then that is different to an editor who is public about their real name and employer being telephoned at work via the company switchboard regarding matters unrelated to their employment which is different again to calling someone on a personal phone number you found via the website of a local community organisation they volunteer for, which you found via a mention on their social media profile, which you found via searching on their name (mentioned on their userpage) and location (which you inferred from a discussion on the talk page of the article about that place). The latter is unquestionably stalking and unequestionably a site-banning offence, but as TB notes it is the arbitration committee who are the only people able to determine what the full circumstances were. Thryduulf (talk) 14:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with what Thryduulf has written above. Let me share a painful personal anecdote. Many years ago, I learned a hard lesson and lost a friend. I was very much worried about the health of a dear Wiki-friend who wasn't editing, and email correspondent who wasn't responding to emails. We had shared real names and other personal info, so it was easy to find their phone number and give them a call. They were shocked and angry that I had done so. Even though we were close wiki-friends, nevertheless they found a phone call a terrible invasion of their privacy. Looking back, it now seems obvious to me why. So if such an intrusion can feel deeply creepy, even from a worried "friend" how would it likely feel from a stranger? Paul August ☎ 16:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)