Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:46, 12 November 2006

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Not neutral article

Look like everything in this article positive for one point of view.Opiner 00:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Such a friendly start! :-) (→Netscott) 00:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, you can not just add POV tag to an article without explicitly providing sources contradiciting this article. --Aminz 00:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Youre thinking the source template. Do you know what POV standing for? Youre making up the rule again and right away reverting.Opiner 00:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have any source contradicting a sentence written in this article, then please show me. --Aminz 00:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Administrator comment

A little for both sides here: editors don't have to provide sources when they add a POV tag. They should, however, post more of an explanation on the talk page - preferably analysis of specific sections and passages. Durova 00:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Aminz creating this article because on Muhammad he keep trying to make sections with only positive things like Kindness to Animals. Im not kidding he really make that section. When editor try to make it neutral he revert until he break 3RR three times this week. SO he have this article to own and be not neutral.

Title. Whats a reform is a good change. So only good changes listed here just like what hes doing on Muhammad. Should retitle it Changes under Islam and have both good and bad things to be neutral.Opiner 00:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, the word reformation doesn't mean inherently good.. there can be reforms that are bad as well (particularly for certain groups). (→Netscott) 00:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Another administrator comment: . --Aminz 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Its only been a couple minutes. You didnt give much time did you? Why cant you let the template stay for discussing instead of always revert.Opiner 00:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine. But please be specific. --Aminz 00:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, please outline your neutrality concerns here on the talk page and then proceed to restore the POV tag. You'll surely not have any problems with reverting if you do that being that if your concerns were well founded even I would revert the tag removal. (→Netscott) 01:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair. Theres a lot here and gotta do some stuff to do so wait to later.Opiner 01:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems we have reached a consensus. I would be more than interested to hear what Muhammad did which, in his day and time, was backward. This will contradict Watt since Watt says that from the perspective of Muhammad's contemporaries, he was very upright and they didn't find any lack of morality in him. --Aminz 01:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see a quote to that effect. By the standards of our day he was a bad man (I guess god's morals were different back then too), but even by his standards, assassination can't have been acceptable. Arrow740 10:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Title?

Maybe Historical reforms under Islam since this is covering primarily reforms during Muhammad's time. It's not a big issue but it might be good to narrow down the title to discourage folks from coming in and editing in modern reforms (unless that's what this article should be about as well). (→Netscott) 01:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article is supposed to cover the reforms at the time of Muhammad. Maybe Reforms under early Islam would be better? Any suggestion? --Aminz 01:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually maybe specify the dates like Reforms under early Islam (610-632) or just Reforms under Islam (610-632)... there might be a Misplaced Pages manual of style for such questions. (→Netscott) 01:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we would like to include early Khalifas (four immediate successors of Muhammad) under which Islamic territory became an empire. Since in the Islam and Slavrey section, we have something about the practice of slavery in Islamic empire and Byzantium. --Aminz 01:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good.... just figure out the dates and specify them. (→Netscott) 02:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

So, I will move the page to Reforms under Islam (610-661) --Aminz 02:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

A question: If we can include his immediate successors, then can we include that they "lowered taxes, provided greater local autonomy and greater religious freedom for Jews and indigenous Christians, and brought peace to peoples demoralized and disaffected by the casualties and heavy taxation resulted from the years of Byzantine-Persian warfare" (ref. both Esposito; Lewis mention this)

Quoting from Lewis:

Some even among the Christians of Syria and Egypt preffered the rule of Islam to that of Byzantines. A Jewish apocalyptic writing of the early Islamic period makes an angel say to a rabbinic seer: 'Do not fear, Ben Yohay; the Creater, blessed be He, has only brought the Kingdom of Ishmael in order to save you from this wickedness ...the Holy one, blessed be He, will raise up for them a Prophet according to His will, and conquer the land for them, and they will come and restore it...' We may compare with this the words of a later Syric Christian historian: 'Therefore the God of vengeance delivered us out of the hand of the Romans by means of the Arabs...It profited us not a little to be saved from the cruelty of the Romans and their bitter hatred towards us' The people of the conquered provinces did not confine themselves to simply accepting the new regime, but in some cases actively assisted in its establishment. In Palestine the Samaritans, according to tradition, gave such effective aid to the Arab invaders that they were for some time exempted from certain taxes, and there are many other reports in the early chronicles of local Jewish and Christian assistance."

My question is if these are reforms of Islam. --Aminz 02:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Aminz, just be bold and do some editing. Others will be sure to join in! :-) (→Netscott) 02:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Need to do some research. Cheers, --Aminz 02:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that the article be broken up into 2 primary sections. The first obviously would cover reforms under Muhammad and the second for afterwards. (→Netscott) 02:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea.We can do that after we gathered more information. --Aminz 06:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Geckos

Truthspreader you make article say Arab practices were 'terrible' again. If that not POV what is?

Then you reduce hadith citation making it sound like only one hadith when actually seven. Whats the reason for that can you explain? You put command about geckos in footnote. Why? Also change gecko pic caption to remove FACT that Muhammad say to kill them and also to make no sense. Theyre AMBIVALENT? That make no sense.

If something sound good then trumpeted from the rooftop. If bad then hidden under the rug. Thats not neutral.Opiner 04:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Terrible is very different from traditional, which gives very wrong information. Secondly, information has to come from secondary sources. Please stop making Original research and putting your claims as Professor Opiner. TruthSpreader 04:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No original research there. If traditional is wrong then say nothing. Just practices of the Arabs. Were not supposed to take a position.

Information must come from seconddary sources? QUOTE THE POLICY.

Now what about the geckos? Why change number of hadiths from seven to one? Why changing the caption? You give reasons why geckos are bad while hiding Muhammad command to kill them. Like a court case where only the defense can speak! Explain why please.Opiner 04:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

M. didn't come to eradicate all practices of Arabs, hence putting nothing would be wrong as well. Secondly, I am not hiding the command. There is no command, it is an advice. The secondary source even takes killing of these animals in haram as advice and not command (which is a much more severe case), then who are we to comment on that? TruthSpreader 04:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Then write practices of Arabs that HE THOUGHT were 'terrible' NOT make the article say that.

Hadith say 'advice' not 'command'?

Book 026, Number 5560: Umm Sharik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) COMMANDED her to kill geckos. This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Ibn Abi Shaiba with a slight variation of wording.

Book 026, Number 5561: Umm Sharik reported that she consulted Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) in regard to killing of geckos, and he COMMANDED to kill them and Umm Sharik is one of the women of Bani 'Amir b. Luwayy. This hadith has been reported through another chain of transmitters with the same meaning.

Book 026, Number 5562:'Amir b. Sa'd reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) COMMANDED the killing of geckos, and he called them little noxious creatures.

Hmm look like command to me.04:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:OR says: Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say. TruthSpreader 04:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That say NOTHING about primary or secondary sources. There are parts that talk about the primary sources why arent you quoting them?Opiner 04:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Mate! if you are so sure, why don't you backup your case with a good secondary source. TruthSpreader 04:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Youre evading the questions! Why you not quote the parts that DO talk about primary sources? If YOURE so sure how come you cant find anything in the policy to backup your case?Opiner 04:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You are claiming to infer from hadith literature, as a hadith expert. The problem is that you dont' even know how hadith literature works. There are examples in which some Muslims think that context is essential in interpreting the source. Secondly, not all hadith are accepted by all historians, so saying that Muhammad ordered killing geckos is a grave POV that is your Original Research. TruthSpreader 04:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No theres no 'interpreting' here at all anymore than you 'interpret' secondary source. Read what it say and write it not 'interpreting.' The rules here EXACTLY the same with secondary and primary source. So QUOTE THE POLICY you think backs you up.

And why you change citation of seven hadith to citation of only one? Still havent answered that.Opiner 04:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

They say that everything bad in the hadith is a corruption, but keep the good stuff. What a joke. Is this the way all Muslims reason? Context. What a load of nonsense. You don't need context to interpret the words "Muhammad commanded the killing of geckos." Arrow740 10:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No body is disagreeing with the fact that geckos are not liked animals and M. advised to kill these animals (some thing a secondary source says very clearly). By adding that it is a command for all Muslims, this purly is Original research. TruthSpreader 10:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Truthspreaders Double Standard on Hadith

Truthspreader looking at what youve been saying that we cant use primary sources such as hadith, can you explain this edit? Where you add Bukhari hadith to secondary source which doesnt mention the hadith.You write that hadith 'suggest' something which is 'interpretation' isnt it? Explain.Opiner 05:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Look like a whole lot of primary sources used in that article both hadith and sira. Wondering how much of that you add Truthspreader? Why you not agressively remove it I wonder?Opiner 05:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If he has used primary sources, then he has done something he shouldn't have done. That doesn't justify using primary sources here. --Aminz 06:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Reason Truthspreader edit was bad is because he include the original research conclusion that Hadith 'suggests' something. If Hadith saying 'Prophet told me journey physical not a dream' then his edit would be fine. Aminz maybe you can go over to that article where reverters are bringing back the original reasearch of Truthspreader.

Main point is that Truthspreader using dishonest attorney arguments to promote his NOT neutral POV. He make that edit with the hadith AT THE SAME TIME check the date that he argue the exact opposite on Muhammad! Not spreading the truth at all!Opiner 06:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We should not use primary sources, not here and not anywhere else. So, yes, he wasn't right on that point. I myself have screwed up many times, but these are all irrelevant. I am concerned with this article. We can not use primary sources here. That's all I say. --Aminz 06:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay youre not going to say more. I wanna hear Truthspreader explanation.Opiner 06:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Look like Truthspreader using Hadith all the time! Especially for the original research. Look at this diff with whole Hadith section..Opiner 07:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture

I don't know why that picture was added. It is about a slave market in Yaman, taken from slave trade section in the slavery article. But this article is not about slavery nor the caption is relevant to the section. All religions accept slavery, there is no one, even one that condemns, Lewis says. Aside from that: The oriental slave trade is sometimes called Islamic slave trade, but religion was hardly the point of the slavery, Patrick Manning, a professor of World History, states. What's the point of that figure? --Aminz 05:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Again you try to justify the wickedness in Islam by pointing the finger at other religions. Stop wasting time with this nonsense. Arrow740 10:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

WHy you add defensive things to caption? Words were neutral before. Seem like everything need a big defense explanation.Opiner 06:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of removing the picture as it is irrelevant. What does have oriental slave trade to do with this article. The picture is a 13 century one. This article is about 610-661. Also, oriental slave trade is not an Islamic one. --Aminz 06:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Its Islam allowing slavery. The article talk about reforming form 610-661 but are you saying it cant include any of the EFFECTS after 661? Islam command kindness to animals until 661? And no pics of anything made after 661?Opiner 07:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, what's the point? why should we be so hostile to each other? Arab slave trade was not Islamic slave trade. Islam wasn't the point of the slavery. We can have the picture together with explanation. --Aminz 07:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We shouldnt be hostile to each other. I agree with that. You need to take a step back though and ask why so many editor on Muhammad thinking your edits not neutral. You are very FOR Muhammad and ISlam and edit that way too BUT Misplaced Pages cant be FOR anything like that. So someone need to keep an eye on you which Im doing. You should listen to what were saying instead of the reverting. They are letting put your materials BUT with editting to be neutral. Should admit to yourself youre not neutral and agree its okay for us doing that. Its gotta be collaborating not edit warring. If you do that life will become less stress for everyone especially you.

The long explanation already in the article. In the caption it look really defensive. Tell what about original caption you didnt like or thought wasnt neutral.Opiner 08:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, your comment saddens me, but neverminds. As I said above, religon was hardly the point of slave trade. That picture is about slave trade. --Aminz 08:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The article talk about the slavery trading under the Islamic law. So there is the picture of the slavery trading under the ISlamic law. its from Islam and slavery which about Islam and slavery just like the part of this article.Opiner 08:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The Qur'an says that female slaves whose husbands have been killed in war are reward from Allah . None of the "other religions" you're always whining about have lines like this. Hinduism doesn't say, "If you join this religion, you get to kill unbelievers and take their wives as sex slaves! And when you go to heaven you get multiple women to have sex with! So come on, join!" Arrow740 10:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Gecko

We have one secondary source here . But I don't know Mr.Abdullah Rahim the writer. If one can show that Rahim has some relevant degree, we can use this source to write about Geckos. Any objection? --Aminz 06:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The secondary source (if reliable) says it was "salamanders" not lizards. So, we should probably replace the figure. The figure should probably be that of a desert slamander. --Aminz 06:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Salamander from Bukhari hadith not Sahih Muslim. These are two different commandings.

But the salamanders also should be mention. I think it only two hadith though unles maybe its somewhere else too.

Also Muhammad command the Muslims kill all the dogs before changing his mind. Not my conclusion Hadith actually say he said it they started doing it then he change it to only some dogs. We should include this too.Opiner 06:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine, please google them. Whatever you want. Just please show me a reliable secondary source and add it with all the pictures you would like. Please note that websites like answering-Christianity; answering-Islam; faithfreedom, Islamophobia, anti-Islamophobia, etc etc are NOT reliable. --Aminz 06:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course theyre not! BUT you should read policy on primary sources. The policy is there it does talk about primary sources and we should follow what it say. Thats being we should be very careful not to add our own concludings. Just repeating what it say though is okay. Policy even encourage using by giving advice on where to find them.Opiner 06:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, for the sake of whoever you believe in, please find secondary sources. Is that so hard to do? I have suffered myself by finding reliable sources(which you easily remove without realizing the time and energy I have spent). Yes, when I do that, I expect others to do it as well. --Aminz 07:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No one arguing about Watt and Esposito EVEN though theyre obviously having their point of view. I think the Martin Forward one might be okay as long as he write it instead of the wildlife professor. But engineer not okay in the Islam article. Hadith is Islam source not the engineer.Opiner 07:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Opiner, the book is taught in university. It is published by a reliable press. Let me explain a little bit. When someone wants to publish a paper or a book, he submits the draft to the press. Then the press gives the draft to several reviewers to check. The better the press, the better the reviewers. The reviewers make sure that every sentence in the paper, book is factual, otherwise it will be bad for the reputation of the press. The University Text Book are the most reliable ones. Yes, there might even then be mistakes. Everybody can publish write about Islam even non-specialists. But the press may not publish it. If the writer is famous, that would of course increase credentiality. At the end of the day, we can say Prof. X in his book published by Y says Z. --Aminz 07:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain a little bit. When someone wants to publish a paper or a book, he submits the draft to the press. Then the press gives the draft to several reviewers to check. If you are an engineer these reviewers are OTHER ENGINEERS. Thats why it called 'peer' review.Opiner 07:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The books is written on "ethics" of technology. Who do you think reviews it? --Aminz 07:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Not the scholars of Islam.Opiner 08:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, do you agree if we ask 5 outsider admins about this and go for majority? --Aminz 08:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We dont need to because theres the reliable source policy which say

'Prefer sources with relevant doctoral degrees or published expertise in the field they are discussing.'

'Prefer authors with an established reputation in the field where Misplaced Pages uses them for reference.'

What about the things youre saying on the primary sources do you have the quotes for them too?Opiner 08:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, the question is not one of preference. Can we use that source or not, this is the question. --Aminz 08:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I think no he may know nothing about Islam. The policy doesnt say no definitely not youre right about that. HOWEVER you should either find the QUOTE of the policy to supporting your 'no primary source' idea or admit that its not existing. Then we ask whats more relevant to Muhammad and Islam the SAHIH hadith or the ethicists of technology?Opiner 08:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner, I am sure that if we ask several admins, they tell us that the source could be used. BUT I am willing to compromise in this way: I remove "Taking the life of even an insect, in some cases, can equate to taking life of a human." but the rest remains. How is that? --Aminz 08:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Before addressing what you say I want the acknowledge admitting THAT the idea youre giving on the policy for primary sources not really there OR show me the quote.Opiner 08:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It is there. We can not use original sources unless its meaning is entirely clear. This is not the case here. I am a devote Muslim and hadn't heard about those hadiths before. This means that they are not religous duties at all. --Aminz 09:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

AGain the straw man! Who said the religious duty? Only you! Listen Muhammad commanded to kill geckos. What do the hadith say? Muhammad command to kill the geckos! Where is the uncertainty?Opiner 09:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop personal attacks and I wont respond you anymore. --Aminz 09:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What personal attack? I dont personal attack.Opiner 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Secondary source puts it as an advice and gives a reason as well. Who are we to say that it is a command??TruthSpreader 09:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Secondary source you give talk about something else. Hadith say Muhammad command. Who are we to say that it not a command?Opiner 09:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it is hadith. You should read about the basic definition of hadith. You should also read that how western scholars think about it. You should also read that how Muslims sruitinize it. You should also read about how sometimes Muslim differ in their hadith collection. If you are Prof. Opiner in Yale University as hadith expert, I am ready to accept your opinion. TruthSpreader 09:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Pseudo-Comparison to Christianity

Quite apart from the issue of whether Budinger is a scholar in this field, his contrasting of Islam to Christianity is unacceptable. First of all, it is POV pushing serving merely the aim of glorifying Islam by comparing it with a supposedly dark Christianity. Secondly, it is off topic, as this article is about "reforms under Islam" - Christianity was hardly a relevant force in 7th century Arabia and Saint Thomas wasn't even born in the day. Thirdly, the passage is non-sensical, as it compares the Christian idea that man is the "steward of nature" (the one accurate bit in that assessment) with the Islamic idea (I assume that this is accurate) that man is the "protector of nature. Str1977 09:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Saint Thomas wasn't born but the source quotes him to explain the views in Christian circle. Comparison between Christianity and Islam is relevant since the source says Islam was developed to according to some fix the loopwholes in Christianity. --Aminz 09:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Intro

Why doesn't this article start with a neutral exposition of the topic? At least one sentence in the beginning should be neutral before the (unfortunately familiar) quotefest begins. And it should be related to the article's name. If the article is called "Reforms under Islam (610-661)", why does the article start with Muhammad? Str1977 09:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Definite lack of Neutrality.

As MOOTOOGS lawyer (he is in bed) I would like to say that many sections of this article need to be.. how to say it.. Neutralised. They show a large bias towards Muhammad and Islam. INstead, they should show some negatives and more neutral points in addition to the current content.

Thankyou for your time. Mootoog 10:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)