Misplaced Pages

• Certainly. Picking one at random, I fixed Battlestar Galactica (both the old and the new episodes). That took me about fifteen minutes using tabbed browsing. >Radiant< 13:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the research, Yaksha. There's obviously a lot of work to be done.

As long as we're explaining our motives in edit summaries and/or talk pages and directing people here, I'd like to think we'll avoid being seen as insensitive thugs. Perhaps the polite notice I posted above is only necessary when there is discussion on talk pages about naming systems? If no one has discussed it for a particular show, I think we can assume that no one is too worried about it. --Toby Rush ‹ ✆|✍ › 17:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's probably best to put a note, maybe just in the edit summary, everywhere we make the changes. People who haven't been keeping up will be confused, and it could prevent a revert. - Peregrinefisher 18:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the "suffix" method is more prevalent than I'd thought, I strongly recommend that we not inform those WikiProjects/series with the language of, "There is already consensus," but instead that we tell them that there is currently discussion, and that we invite them to the party. I also recommend that we create a template to make this announcement. I overall like Toby's wording, but instead of announcing it as "consensus has already been reached," how about we state that there is an active discussion, to which any interested editors are invited? I think that would be a bit more respectful. For example:

Greetings! There is currently an active discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (television) about how to title television episode articles (specifically, when suffixes are and aren't a good idea). The goal of these discussions is to hopefully attain a Consensus, which will then be enforced on all episode articles of all television series, all over Misplaced Pages. Since the result of this discussion will very likely directly impact the naming of this particular article, any editors involved with this article are encouraged to join the discussion. IF YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE, YOU SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTING DECISION. If you would like to participate, please join the discussion at: Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (television)#RfC - Episode suffixes. Thanks!

Further, before we invite a bunch more people, can we please get rid of the old poll, and start something new, with wording that we're all in agreement with before it opens (and wording that doesn't change multiple times while it's running?). That would do a lot to allay my own concerns. For example, I'd like to see a question with wording like, "Should WikiProjects about a particular show, be allowed to make decisions that affect the article titles for that show, or must all decisions go through WP:NC-TV?" and "Should some television series be allowed to use a consistent naming convention where all episodes end with a suffix such as (<series> episode), or must all episodes be named strictly according to Misplaced Pages disambiguation guidelines, meaning no suffix unless there's already another article with the same title, elsewhere on Misplaced Pages? Note that this might mean that some series would then have a majority of episodes with suffixes, and a minority of episodes without, which could look odd in some cases." --Elonka 19:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A new poll that's not confusing sounds good. "IF YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE, YOU SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTING DECISION" sounds a little harsh, I would leave that part out, otherwise a good idea. Maybe we should archive this page in preperation for the new poll. - Peregrinefisher 19:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

We already answered the question about removing the old poll. No. There's no reason to. If you want to start a new poll with new questions, go ahead. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, IMHO questions like that are not up for vote or discussion. These articles are part of Misplaced Pages and as had been mentioned repeatedly there is no logical reason why there should be exceptions. Wording in standards that pre-emptively allow for an exception then isn't a standard - its an option, and that's what we are trying to avoid. -- Chuq 20:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there's no need for another poll. The conversation has superceded the poll, and a consensus has been reached (at least among the active participants in this discussion). We could formally close the poll above, if that would help, but I really think that another poll would be a waste of time.

However, I do agree that we should politely inform all WikiProjects that have been using preemptive disambiguation of our discussion, and the direction it has gone. I'm thinking of something like this, based on Toby's proposed note:

Greetings, <nameofseries> editors!

As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (television) about how Misplaced Pages articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Misplaced Pages, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a general guideline that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Misplaced Pages with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for Knight Rider, the episode Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, whereas Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song). However, the guideline also recommends that Circus Knights (Knight Rider) exist as a redirect to the episode.

The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at WP:TV-NC felt that it was appropriate to make one last call for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.

We've noticed that many episodes of <nameofseries> are pre-emptively disambiguated: for example, <exampleepisode> is at <examplelocation>, even though there is no Misplaced Pages article at <examplelocationwithoutdisambig>. If you feel that there are strong reasons for this that have not already been considered, please join the discussion at WT:TV-NC. (The current recommendations have been reached after much consideration, and are based on a long discussion about how to best comply with Misplaced Pages's general article naming scheme.)

We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Misplaced Pages, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help!

That's probably a bit wordy, but I was trying to balance the need for full inclusion (everybody has the right to participate in the discussion) with the practicalities of this debate (which I'm sure most of us are rather fatigued over — we don't want to have to explain the same points over and over again). What do you think? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I crossed out Torchwood from the list - it actually follows the standard convention, but may look otherwise at first glance because many episode titles are common phrases. For example, Everything Changes (Torchwood) vs. Cyberwoman. --Brian Olsen 21:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep. I actually turned Everything Changes into a disambiguation page, because there were pre-existing links to two different pop songs by that name... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a bit dicey to ask "Should WikiProjects about a particular show, be allowed to make decisions that affect the article titles for that show, or must all decisions go through WP:NC-TV?" The question basically asks if NC-TV should have any authority - if the end result is "no" then you might as well disband NC-TV completely. If you want to change the policy, propose a new wording of the policy. I think the wording of the current poll is just fine, if the validity is questioned because it changed during the poll, just run it again. Also, the issue isn't even whether TV shows must follow NC-TV - the shows in question violate WP:NAME and WP:D. If you really want to name episodes however you want, the proper course of action is to get those two changed (or at the very least post the same notice there and any similarly appropriate places). Trying to override those two from a subset of wikipedia doesn't seem fair to the rest of the editors. --Milo H Minderbinder 21:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The list didn't actually take that long. Thanks to the fact that almost all "list of episode" articles use the same few templates. I just did a lot of "what links here" for the templates.

Yes, posting a note to the stargate project and the buffyverse project would be poliet, and i'm about to do that.

Star Trek has already been informed on many talk pages, but there's be 0 response on any of them. I think it's safe to assume they're well informed but just don't care/mind.

Most of the ppl in the lost and 4400 project are already here. And parrallel discussions were already going on in those two projects before they got bought here, so they're well informed.

As for the series without projects, let's just go ahead. We need to balance practicality with the need to include everyone. We should just make sure we always explain and link here on the summaries so it gives people a fair chance to come here and complain/debate the moves. --`/aksha 00:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Buffyverse, Stargate and the mortal combat projects have been informed. I've cut out one of the paragraphs about preemtive disambiguation, because it's not needed...as every episode covered by the two projects already have proper articles. --`/aksha 00:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Yaksha. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well...someone from the Mortal Kombat end responded by doing the moving themselves. They missed a few, so i'm just going to go ahead and mop up. --`/aksha 05:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Josiah, your version of the "polite note" is excellent; I was thinking of something along the same lines all day but haven't been able to get to a computer until now. :)

Looking at this from the point of view from a new editor coming into the discussion, I wonder if it would be beneficial to:

• Archive at least some of the extraordinarily long discussion on this talk page
• Add a new section titled something like "Episode Article Names FAQ" that succinctly summarizes the most common concerns regarding the guideline along with tactful answers to those concerns as brought up here

The second point here is served pretty well by Josiah's previous summary, but we might be able to make it easier for new people by restating that in a way that is oriented toward them. Does anyone else think this would be useful? I'd hate for anyone to be turned off by the sheer length of prose on this talk page, if they're just looking for some enlightenment on the naming convention. --Toby Rush ‹ ✆|✍ › 07:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm relunctant to archieve a discussion so recent, but this is....quite huge. Perhaps just archieve everything up to Josiah's previous summary? --`/aksha 08:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea, and I'm going to be bold and do that. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've archived everything up to the "crawling up Mount Consensus"; the page was 250 kilobytes long, so I think this was appropriate. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Multi-part episodes

I thought I'd check in here, as I've had to start a deletion review over an episode article that was deleted on the grounds that, according to guidelines, episodes with more than one part should be included entirely within the same article. Can anyone cite or otherwise verify this for me, or is it a load of hooey? --BlueSquadronRaven 18:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anywhere that says you have to do it as one, but there are features if that's what you want at Template:TVep. - Peregrinefisher 19:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I was sure I'd seen a guideline page that stated that multi-part articles should only have one article... Ah, there it is: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject List of Television Episodes/structure. Kind of an obscure place for such a guideline, but there it is: "Multipart episodes should have only one article." For what it's worth, I agree. To me, the title of an episode is more significant than how many parts it happened to be broadcast in, especially considering the number of parts may differ between original broadcast and syndication/DVD, or different broadcast markets anyway. If the producers choose to use the same title for more than one part, it's probably better to keep them in the same article. -- Fru1tbat 19:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If it's truly one episode, one entry is fine. If they have their own credits and different guest stars or whatever, I think they should get multiple entries. - Peregrinefisher 19:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

That's still not grounds for a deletion. The pages should be merged and then left as redirects to keep the edit history in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy. Jay32183 20:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, very little would be lost in the deletion of the articles I'm currently asking about this for. Only some infobox information would need to be transcribed. The rest of the article is basically only a starting point for more to be added. And, as such, it has already been moved about. Thanks!--BlueSquadronRaven 23:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Executive Summary

WOW! I've been gone for a few days and it looks like this just exploded and has now started to move towards a conclusion. Could someone give me the executive summary so I don't have to read through it all? Also we may want to archive this (if the discussions all done) and rather then calling it /Archive 4 with just a date it might be best to call it /Disambig Guidline Discussion that way it's easily identifiable. -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  09:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Basically, lots more argueing back and forth between individuals. Josiah created an summary of arguments (first edit of the section "reasons for exceptions"), after which i suggested we wrap things up here. The Star Trek example was still the main point of debate - so a notice was posted over at the star trek project page asking for input. The original discussions that led to the Star Trek project taking their current naming convention was fished out(here, here, and here).

Towards the end, i think we pretty much agreed on sticking with the "disambiguate only when needed" clause. The "should we allow exceptions" is still a little up in the air. Which is why notices have been posted to the talk pages of wikiprojects for TV series that use the "always disambiguate" form asking for input. Otherwise, a list of all TV series which use the "always disambiguate" format was generated (see "Other programs not in accordance with this guideline" section). The "should we use "nameofseries" or "nameofseries episode"" is still up in the air too, and i think people have just decided it isn't that important.

Now, we're waiting for responses from the wikiprojects of TV series which always disambiguate, moving pages for TV series that always disambiguate but don't have wikiprojects, and thinking about archieving this page.

Also, some minor changes were made to the naming conventions, you can just take a look at the history for the project page. --`/aksha 10:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Comments from WikiProject Stargate

Firstly, thank you to Yaksha for letting the project know about this discussion - it seems we managed to miss it somehow (at least, I haven't noticed any names from people active on the project). Secondly, I'd like to explain how we do Stargate episodes and why. All episodes are "disambiguated" with either (Stargate SG-1) or (Stargate Atlantis), non-episode articles are disambiguated with (Stargate) only when necessary. The main reason for this is consistancy - it makes it much easier to link to episodes when you know exactly where to find them. Having redirects would help, but it's always best to link directly to an article if you can. One of the most important times we need to know the exact names is with out templates, of which we use a lot. The main ones relevant to this discussion are {{sgcite}} and {{xsgcite}} which take the name of the episode (and optionally the initial of the show, defaulting to SG-1) and output it with the appropriate disambiguation in the appropriate format for mentioning episodes inline, and in references, respectively.

If we were going to move all the articles to undisambiguated titles, we'd end up linking to redirects almost every time we mention an episode. --Tango 09:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No point in explaining reasons here.. the people against suffixes are attempting to nullify anyone supporting them, and have even began moving pages with no consensus to do it. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 09:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken, Matthew, we have a rather strong consensus and arguments all made above.

In response to Tango, there is no harm to link to a redirect, and a bot or something like AWB can easily update all of that. The templates are also an easy fix. I'll gladly help out where I can. There really isn't an issue here, and it's probably a lot easier than you think. -- Ned Scott 10:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• I think we're going to need a FAQ for this :) if we move "episode (Stargate SG-1)" to "episode", it automatically leaves a redirect, so there are no technical problems for the Wikiproject. It's not "always best to link directly to an article", linking to a redirect is perfectly fine or the developers wouldn't have created them. >Radiant< 10:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, one of the good things about redirects is that you can link to the "wrong article" but readers will still arrive at the "right article". However, i don't quite understand what you said about the templates. If we moved the star trek episode articles, exactly what is going to go wrong with the templates? Will they just result in links which are redirects, or is there also some other concern? --`/aksha 10:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Linking to a redirect takes noticeably longer to load than linking directly, and I would imagine causes twice the load on the servers. Redirects are convenient, but they shouldn't be used intentionally without good reason - they are there so your links will still work if you make a mistake on the name. The templates will work fine after all the articles are moved, but they'll all be disambiguated because it's impossible for the template to know where the article is, so they'll be a lot of redirects (and not ones a bot or AWB can fix, as we don't subst the templates because we might want to change the formatting in the future). I don't think causing inconsistency within a project and large numbers of redirects is worth it just to avoid a little inconsistency with the rest of Misplaced Pages. --Tango 10:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

They don't take any longer to load, nor do they cause "double" the server load. Most of the templates can be adapted. Don't be scared, there won't be more work to do to cite an episode, it won't hurt Misplaced Pages, all will be fine. There is no major negative side effect. -- Ned Scott 11:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No expert on technicalities here, but this seems to show that redirects are not very taxing on the server at all. "In other words, readers of Misplaced Pages would have to use a redirect link about 10,000 times before it would be worthwhile to replace that link with a direct link.". --`/aksha 11:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• See also Misplaced Pages:Don't worry about performance, a strong recommendation by Brion Vibber. We pay developers to do that worrying for us. If and when redirect performance becomes problematic, they will inform us; until then we can use them as much as we please. >Radiant< 12:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, maybe I was imagining the slower response to redirects (or just thinking about viewing them with popups, which is definitely slower, it seems to do the redirect manually). My comment about the server load was secondary - I was more worried about the loading times for users.

The templates can certainly not be adapted, they'll have to link to the redirect page (which you've now convinced me isn't a serious problem, so it doesn't matter).

--Tango 15:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

(showname) or (showname episode)

OK, we've decided to follow WP's rules for disambiguation. Let's decide if a page that must be disambiguated should have (showname) or (showname episode) appended to it. Obviously, if (showname) is chosen and it's already taken by a character page or someting, use (showname episode). - Peregrinefisher 17:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

(showname)

1. support Let's keep it as simple as possible. - Peregrinefisher 17:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
2. Support. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
3. Support Abstain. There is already a vote on this particular issue above... I suggest you close this repeat survey and vote up there. We might want to move that survey down to the bottom of this page. --Serge 18:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
   • Someone (anonymously) just archived the survey above. In general, it's frowned upon to repeat a survey so soon after having one on the same issue, especially when the first one had so many participants. This instantiation of the survey needs to be justified somehow in order to be credible. --Serge 20:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
     • Josiah Rowe stated above that he did the archieving, because the page was getting way too long.
4. In most cases, I think clashes between episodes and other articles about the show can be avoided in a similar way to how Stargate pages are done - episodes get the name of the show, other articles just get "(Stargate)". I think other shows use a similar system (non-episode Buffy articles are suffixed "(Buffyverse)" for instance, so their episodes could be "(Buffy)" ). --Tango 18:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
5. Weak support. My general preference is for shorter disambiguation phrases, so (Showname) is better than (Showname episode); however, I think that as long as pre-emptive disambigution is avoided, it doesn't really matter that much which disambiguation phrase is used when it is necessary. I'd prefer to finish up the other debate before getting bogged down in this one; I actually think we can let this aspect go for a while. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
6. Support Always in favor of keeping it simple. But do agree this was not the more important of the issues. Jay32183 21:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
7. Support (obviously except in the examples of Serenity (Firefly episode), Angel (Buffy episode), Captain Jack Harkness (Torchwood episode) etc.)~Zythe 21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
8. Support --`/aksha 03:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

(showname episode)

Summary of naming issue

I still feel quite strongly that the earlier RfC poll is invalid, because its format and wording were changed so many times while it was in-process. for just a few diffs to indicate the mass confusion.

As such, I'd like to start over fresh, with a summary of the issue, and a new poll, where we agree on the wording beforehand, then open it, and refrain from changing the wording while it's in process. As such, here's my own "nutshell synopsis" of the issue as it stands:

On a careful review of current Misplaced Pages practices, it is clear that in situations where a television series has individual episodes, that in many cases, the editors who created the episode articles chose to use a consistent naming system, where a suffix of (<seriesname>) or (<seriesname> episode) was added to each article title, even when not specifically required by disambiguation rules.

As this practice has come to light, some editors who are in favor of a more strict interpretation of disambiguation guidelines, say that this process is improper, and that all of these hundreds of television articles should be changed to bring them back into strict adherence (meaning that a suffix should only be included if it is absolutely necessary for disambiguation purposes if there's another article of the same title elsewhere on Misplaced Pages).

Other editors feel that there's nothing wrong with the practice of consistent suffixes, and that it has various advantages, such as consistency in linking, making category listings look cleaner, and providing helpful context in watchlists. They believe that the Naming Conventions guideline should be updated to indicate that this "allow consistent suffixes" method should be included as an acceptable alternative for article naming. Or in other words, per Misplaced Pages:Guideline, "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception"

Other editors feel that the "consistent suffix" method should be generally discouraged, but that it may be warranted as an exception in certain situations. For example, some series have cases where the majority of their episodes already require a suffix for disambiguation reasons, so it might make sense to also add a suffix to the minority of episodes that don't have it, for consistency's sake. Other series have gone through multiple title changes (such as Star Trek), and those editors have chosen to use a consistent (<abbreviation> episode) system, such as "(TOS episode)" "(DS9 episode)", etc.

A potential poll question for this issue is: "When is it appropriate for articles about episodes of a television series to use a consistent naming system, such a consistent suffix of (<seriesname> episode) after each episode title?" Answers could be "Always - all series should use this system," "Never - suffixes should only be used when absolutely required for disambiguation", "Sometimes - it should be taken on a case by case basis, depending on the needs of that particular series."

Does this sound like a fair summary of the issue, and a fair wording of a poll question? If not, please feel free to suggest alternate wording. --Elonka 20:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The previous RfC was a total mess - I think your suggestion is pretty good :) Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe two seperate polls? One with "always", "never", and "sometimes" as above. Another with (showname) vs. (showname episode)? We should figure both things out now, while everyones watching. - Peregrinefisher 20:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see some evidence that at least one person in the prior survey voted incorrectly "because its format and wording were changed so many times" before I would agree that it is invalid. --Serge 20:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The above does not sound like a fair summary of the issue. For example, the second paragraph is obviously biased. I suggest:

As this practice has come to light, some editors have noted that this process creates names that are inconsistent with the way Misplaced Pages articles are named in general. Many editors believe that those articles that do not require disambiguation should be changed to be consistent with accepted and widely followed general Misplaced Pages naming conventions as reflected in the naming and disambiguation guidelines.

The above is just an example, but it's all moot because the need for a new survey has not been established per my previous point. --Serge 20:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, the existing consensus on this page is not based on the poll, but on the extensive conversation that has followed it. You are correct that the poll was altered, and some of the poll-related discussion may have been unclear, but there has been a great deal of discussion since then. Remember that polling is evil, and Misplaced Pages prefers discussion over voting. Accordingly, I take the many, many kilobytes of discussion into greater account than the poll, which was only a preliminary gauge of opinions. Please read Misplaced Pages:Discuss, don't vote#Policy and guidelines — although that page has not been approved, it is an accurate description of how policies and guidelines are formed on Misplaced Pages.

I have yet to see any response to my summary of the arguments at #Reasons for exceptions. In this section, you have merely restated the arguments which I believe I and others have successfully argued against. All your arguments can be summarized by "consistency", "precedent" and "context", none of which are supported by other Misplaced Pages policies. "Common sense and the occasional exception" is a completely different matter from establishing a guideline which codifies those exceptions.

I also oppose having another poll on this subject, as I feel that the discussion (not the poll) has reached an adequate consensus, and we should move on to the next stage. You and Matthew Fenton are the only editors who disagree with the existing consensus, and consensus does not mean 100% agreement. Let's move on. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Josiah, the discussion clearly stood on it's own. Not only that, but that mass of diffs links is a bit misleading, as most of them had nothing to do with the actual formatting of the poll. The majority of the votes took place while the poll was reasonably clear in what it meant. "Mass confusion" is a bit of an exaggeration. Again, the discussion stands alone from the poll and shows support for the guideline's current version, as well as coming to the conclusion that Lost and Star Trek do not have a reasonable exemption from this guideline. -- Ned Scott 21:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, here's a compromise proposal. If you ask the people who voted against the guideline you want, and explain to them what the vote was really for, and you find more than a few people that eseentially say, "Oh!!! Is that what I supported! I wanted to vote on the other side!", then we can restart the poll. What do people think of that? Your appeal for re-starting the poll is alleged procedure problems, but the appeal needs to be won (i.e., the procedure problems need to be proven) before the poll can be re-run. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, I already posted messages to those same people a long time ago. They all seem totally disinterested. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Serge, I provided *28* diffs of impropriety in that poll (and that wasn't even a complete collection), and yet still you're asking for proof? How about this, where "oppose" comments were deleted (one of them with the comment of "stupid votes")? . And here are comments where people are complaining about it . And Ned, even you admitted that the poll wording was changing the meaning of people's "votes": . The poll is invalid. Let's bury it and go on to a better and cleaner one. And look at it this way: If you're so convinced that you have a clear and unambiguous consensus, then it won't matter how many polls we do, right? We could do 20 polls and they'd all say the same thing. So, prove it. Let's do a clean poll with no funny business, where we're in agreement with the wording before we open it. I don't see why there should be any objection to this. --Elonka 22:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• After being shown here and viewing the situation, I think in this instance the poll does need to be redone. Although I agree that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, in this instance some voters feel violated that the poll has changed its name so many times. The wording of a poll can make participants change there view, thus it’s unfair to keep changing the wording and it makes people’s opinion on it differ. I understand that it’s going to create a lot of hassle restarting a poll but it has to be done and I’m sure those willing to participate originally will want to participate again. Most comments won’t take more than 10 minutes to write, although I do feel for those that have already expressed their opinions. When there’s a disagreement over a poll, you can’t let the poll decide a consensus. One final thing, this time it is essential to agree over the wording of the poll before it takes place. There should be no going back from this point Englishrose 22:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's redo it. It doesn't hurt anything. We need to come up with good wording from the beginning. - Peregrinefisher 23:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It hurts plenty by slowing us down. Also, as I said before, I doubt there'd be much interest. Not to mention the fact that straw polls are secondary in finding consensus. Most of the "votes" were one time deals to these people. They treated it like a petition or something abd left. Why all the push and stock over such a process? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka - You're providing evidence that things were changed around - no one is disputing that. I'm asking for evidence that any of the votes up there currently does not reflect the position of the voter at that time the vote was made. Second, you're ignoring Josiah's lucid argument about the problem with relying on polls in the first place, and the discussion establishing the true and preferred consensus. Third, you're ignoring the fact that voters were notified about the changes. Fourth, are you serious about "it won't matter how many polls we do"? Requiring people to revote is unfair (which is why I'm abstaining from the survey started today about whether "episode" should be included - even though there was no consensus on that point established). We should try to avoid voting in the first place (per Josiah's argument). We should try to avoid revotes even more. I'm starting to believe that you're just complaining for the perhaps-unconscious-and-so-in-good-faith purposes of simply delaying changes that you (and hardly anyone else) happen to oppose. --Serge 23:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh! Burn! Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, I don't think those diffs really prove much of anything. The question didn't really change, just the debate around it. And if anyone felt like their vote was invalidated by the change, why haven't they said so themselves. It just seems like an excuse to re-do and hope there's a different result, even though the discussion itself shows a pretty strong consensus. And I take strong issue with the proposed summary, it's incredibly biased toward those who don't want to follow the naming guidelines among other things. I'm glad to see that articles are already being renamed, let's hope that attempts at stalling don't slow it down. --Milo H Minderbinder 23:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

As an additional reason to redo the poll, I have suspected, and am now gathering proof, of sockpuppetry in both the poll and discussion: Izzy Dot (talk · contribs). The poll is invalid, and needs to be redone. If anyone doesn't like my proposed wording, they are welcome to suggest something new. But please stop with the personal attacks, stop with the harassment, and stop accusing me of bad faith. Even without the sockpuppetry charge, we've already had multiple calls for redoing the poll, so let's stop arguing about whether or not it's necessary, and instead work on coming up with wording we agree with. --Elonka 00:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

If you absolutely insist on doing another poll, at least let the wording be agreed apon and sit for a couple days. The last thing we need is yet another poll that isn't worded neutrally and is called into question from the beginning. --Milo H Minderbinder 00:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, I'm sorry you are upset about the results of the poll, but the fact that the wording was changed and you have made one accusation of sockpuppetry does not change the fact that the discussion during the poll came to same conclusion as the results of the poll itself. No one is going to stop you from starting a new poll, but the reason people are trying to dissuade you from doing so is because doing a new poll is just going to be a waste of everyone's time and will come to the same conclusion that we have already reached. However, some people seem to have to learn things the hard way. If you are one of those people and do start a new poll, don't be surprised when many participants choose to abstain, commenting that the poll is unnecessary because they already voted above and a consensus has already been reached. Nohat 00:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, please stop repeating your refuted points while continuing to ignore the points that have been made repeatedly by multiple people in response. You're still ignoring Josiah's argument, which was supported explicitly by Ned and implicitly by several others including Yours Truly, and makes your argument that the poll is invalid moot. Now you're also ignoring my points and those of Milo and Ace Class Shadow as well, points that challenge your contention that the poll is invalid. Personal attacks? Harassment? I hope you're joking. Two or three people who are not satisfied with the outcome of a survey calling for a re-vote does not constitute proof that the poll is invalid. I'm now asking for a third time, please provide some evidence that any of the current votes in the poll do not accurately reflect the relevant voter's position. You have not done this. And I'm not accusing you of bad faith when I ask rehetorically what besides delay tactics would explain your dodging all these points and repeating your own repeatedly refuted ones? --Serge 00:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Did someone just accuse me of being a fucking sockpuppet? I ain't nobody's puppet, hear? Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 00:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

So you are claiming to be a new account, that just happened to have elaborate knowledge of Misplaced Pages procedures from day one, which just happened to be a couple weeks ago? --Elonka 01:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I used to be an unregistered user. Read my fraggin' profile. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 01:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Having a new account, even if he had a previous account, is in itself not a bad thing. It really would only be an issue if he was using both accounts in the same discussion. -- Ned Scott 02:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No, waste of time. Discussion reached agreements, so what's the point of dragging everyone around for a new poll? We're in the agreement that the guildline should be "disambiguate only when needed", now all you're arguing about is whether to allow exceptions. The episode articles for about half a dozen series have already been moved, and there's no evidence of there being any disruption caused. Quite the opposite actually (see thereply here). So exactly what are you argueing for? to change the guildlines around to "always disambiguate"? Or is this back down to the fact that you want Lost episodes and Star Trek episodes to say the way they are? --`/aksha 03:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I came across this and thought I'd throw in an outsider's thoughts.

• First thing: Can't you guys get along and collaborate?
• I agree for the most part with "disambiguate only when needed." In the case of guildlines, such as this, there obviously needs to be flexibility.
• The best course of action: Make a list of what to "allow exceptions." Then the changes will be in plain sight and you guys can debate it amongst yourselves. Just keep it WP:NPOV.

Hope that helps very little! —SolelyFacts 21:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of us can get along, and we have no problem with rationale exceptions. This is more of an issue of 2 or 3 editors being stubborn because they can't come up with a rationale exception. Also NPOV applies to how we write articles; it's ok to have a point of view on the talk page. -- Ned Scott 21:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As for why I want a new poll, I believe that with the vitriole in this discussion, where a few editors with highly uncivil communication styles are attacking anyone who disagrees with them, that this environment has not been conducive to civil discussion. Further, I believe that this discussion has been dominated by a few editors who have the time to post multiple times per day, but I do not agree that someone who posts more often, should have their opinion given more weight than that of someone who can only post a few times per week. This is another reason that I would like to see a fair poll conducted, to ensure that we have the widest possible participation, where different editors' voices are given equal weight.

Anyway, after wading through the latest series of personal attacks and incivility, here's what I've distilled as the next round of potential new poll wording. Do folks like this better?

On a careful review of current Misplaced Pages practices, it is clear that in situations where a television series has individual episodes, that in many cases, the editors who created the episode articles chose to use a consistent naming system, where a suffix of (<seriesname>) or (<seriesname> episode) was added to each article title, even when not specifically required by disambiguation rules.

As this practice has come to light, some editors have noted that this process creates names that are inconsistent with normal Misplaced Pages disambiguation guidelines, and as such, these editors believe that those articles with suffixes, that did not require them for disambiguation, should be changed to non-suffix versions in order to be consistent with Misplaced Pages naming conventions.

Other editors feel that there's nothing wrong with the practice of consistent suffixes, and that it has various advantages, such as consistency in linking, making category listings look cleaner, and providing helpful context in watchlists. They believe that the Naming Conventions guideline should be updated to indicate that this "allow consistent suffixes" method should be included as an acceptable alternative for article naming. Or in other words, per Misplaced Pages:Guideline, "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception"

Other editors feel that the "consistent suffix" method should be generally discouraged, but that it may be warranted as an exception in certain situations. For example, some series have cases where the majority of their episodes already require a suffix for disambiguation reasons, so it might make sense to also add a suffix to the minority of episodes that don't have it, for consistency's sake. Other series have gone through multiple title changes (such as Star Trek), and those editors have chosen to use a consistent (<abbreviation> episode) system, such as "(TOS episode)" "(DS9 episode)", etc.

A potential poll question for this issue is: "When is it appropriate for articles about episodes of a television series to use a consistent naming system, such as a consistent suffix of (<seriesname> episode) after each episode title?" Answers could be "Always - all series should use this system," "Never - suffixes should only be used when absolutely required for disambiguation", "Sometimes - it should be taken on a case by case basis, depending on the needs of that particular series."

And a related question is, "In cases where a suffix is to be used, is it better to use (<series>), (<series> episode), or to allow other methods (such as the Star Trek abbreviation system), as long as it is consistent throughout that series?

And folks, please try to keep comments civil? I've been asked why I don't specifically reply to everyone's comments here, and one reason is, that as soon as someone resorts to personal attacks or uncivility, I tend to ignore anything else they have to say (as is recommended in WP:CIVIL). So if you want your voice to be heard, please concentrate on being polite, being civil, and showing that you have as much respect for the opinions of editors who disagree with you, as respect for the opinions of those who agree with you. A civil discussion all around, will help things to move along much more smoothly. Thanks, --Elonka 23:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Your allegations of incivility and personal attacks are getting boring. Take them to WP:PAIN if you feel so strongly. You're just ignoring everyone's messages here including my invitation to find people who agree that the poll was tainted. I can't figure how you can expect anyone to take your pleas for dialogue seriously when you won't partake in dialogue yourself. —Wknight94 (talk) 23:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No offense Elonka, but aside from Izzy Dot...you're accusations (such as "after wading through the latest series of personal attacks and incivility") have been far closer to to "uncivility" than anything else here. As far as i can see, this discussion has flowed very smoothly, beeing very productive towards the end, and very civil except for your accusations. If you believe otherwise, then please provide some examples of what you've felt to be "incivil comments" and "attacks".

Until then, i'm not going to bother furthing discussion with someone who is accusing me of being uncivil and attacking. --`/aksha 04:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, so I haven't heard any objections to the new poll wording so far. Let's give it another day or so, and then if there are still no objections, we'll open, and announce on all the List/WikiProject pages about the new poll. --Elonka 21:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What in the world?! What poll? Who agreed to another poll? Are you actually going to bulldozer forward with a poll even though one single person agrees with it? Am I going insane? Is someone else agreeing with this idea of polling and polling until you get a result that you like? —Wknight94 (talk) 22:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. Maybe she's trying to use this straw poll to resolve the suffix issue as an excuse to make the new poll that we've all turned down already. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The poll that was "bulldozed" was the original one, which is why it needs to be re-done. If you'll take time to actually read the posts in the above discussion, editors that have so far supported the idea of a new poll are me, MatthewFenton, Peregrinefisher, EnglishRose, and Milo H Minderbinder (provided that we agree on wording). A new and cleanly-run poll is not going to hurt anything, and will hopefully help settle the matter of consensus once and for all. Let's please work on discussing the wording, rather than continuing to argue about whether or not a new poll is necessary. --Elonka 22:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I strongly oppose doing another poll. I don't think the changes to the previous one invalidated it in any way, and I think from the discussion there is a clear consensus with a couple individuals who don't agree. My previous comment was only that if a new poll was railroaded through, the wording suggested was extremely biased. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Some folks love straw man arguments. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't be arguing at all, the issue has been resolved. The poll is not what decided the issue, it's the discussion. The discussion proved, without a doubt, that there is no reason to deviate from the guideline. I really hope you don't poke at strawmen until you get your way. Jay32183 22:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Come on folks: whatever each of us may feel about the issue at hand, or think about the probable outcome, we have some clear irregularities in the previous poll. It makes sense to come to an agreement on the appropriate wording and do a clean poll. Consensus gathering is also about making everyone feel like their stance was fairly considered and weighed. -- PKtm 22:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, I think you're misappropriating old comments. If they feel as you say, they'd comment. Rather than taking their archived statements out of context to further your own agenda, I'd recommend contacting them as I contacted the others. Anyone who feels their opinion was not properly expressed should comment, but if they choose not to, I'm afraid anything else is just a meaningless quote.

Agreed, Jay. As you, I and countless others have explained, straw polling is a secondary form of finding concensus.

People who treat the process like a petition or democratic vote and never return don't show a real desire to be "counted" in the respect you're referencing, PKTM. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not a fair representation of what I actually said, Ace. For one thing, I don't agree that polling is like a democratic vote, and have frequently elsewhere voiced my views on that. My point was that the poll was indeed irregular, and that we owe it to the consensus process, given that people have pointed that out, to engineer a poll with a clearer, less disputable outcome. That's all I said. Not everyone will (in your terms) show a "real desire to be counted" by wading into a dispute where incivility is already present. And as another editor noted above, mentioning the value of an "outsider's perspective", "can't you guys get along and collaborate?" -- PKtm 00:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Starting a poll at this point is meaningless. It's the discussion that matters and the discussion has concluded. Jay32183 02:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The only poll that should be done is to find out anyone was misled by the original poll. I'll be surprised if you find a single one. That said, this new supposed poll should be very simple if you want it to be effective. List the exact wording you want in the guideline. That's it. Otherwise, the results of the poll will be subject to interpretation no matter what they are and you'll just end up starting over again. No big long explanations - you can do that in the discussion section. That's what went wrong in the first poll - there was far too much explanation and detail in the choices themselves. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• There appears to be agreement over the standard now amongst most people, and there have been no strong reactions to the attempted renaming, and several WikiProjects have indicated they have no objection. As such I entirely fail to see the point of yet another poll on the subject. If discussion resolves an issue, polls aren't needed. (Radiant) 12:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Move for Smothered (Law & Order: Criminal Intent episode) requested

I've submitted withdrawn the following move request at WP:RM:

Smothered (Law & Order: Criminal Intent episode) → Smothered — Per WP:TV-NC. Please vote at Talk:Smothered (Law & Order: Criminal Intent episode)

--Serge 01:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't Smothered redirect, like smother, to Asphyxia? What is the rule on that kind of thing? - Peregrinefisher 01:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

What Peregrine said. Also, please do not jump in and be moving articles around, since this discussion is not concluded. Moving articles at this point is just going to cause further confusion. --Elonka 01:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It is concluded, and they're already moving pages, genius. Give the fuck up! You lost. Game o. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 01:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Izzy, your comments are not appropriate at all, and I shouldn't have to tell you that. A lot of us are feeling frustrated at some people, but that's no excuse to be rude. -- Ned Scott 07:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No one is confused about anything, though some are disappointed and can't seem to let it go. --Serge 02:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Smothered did redirect to asphyxia. I changed it to redirect to the L&O episode article instead. There were no links pointing to it. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. We can't have the past tense version of every word redirect to the article about that concept, especially when we have a legitimate enyclopedic use of that word (the name of a TV episode). For example, Scared is about the punk rock album of that title; it does not redirect to Fear. --Serge 02:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Now, if we may focus, I have something relevant to say. Serge, even though this is not a dictionary, don't you think it'd better to for searchers if stuff like "Scared" and "smothered" redirect to articles discribing the concepts? I mean, I really find those dab messages at the top of pagings gawdy. It'd be nice, linkless or not, if words redirected to decriptions rather than things named after them. I can't fucking STAND stuff like the "Friends" situation! Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 02:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Izzy, I think it was impolitic for Elonka to accuse you of being a sockpuppet, but I think your tone here is starting to get a little too hostile.

Elonka, if you really think you have a valid rationale for your viewpoint, you should post a detailed rebuttal to Josiah's summary in the section titled "Reasons for exceptions" above. If you want to be taken seriously and not disregarded as a "sore loser" you should start making compelling arguments, rather than making unfounded accusations and complaining about bureaucratic matters. Nohat 02:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Nohat - agreed. --Serge 02:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Izzy Dot, I see your point. I'd have a problem with "Smother", "Fear" or even "Scare" being names of articles about something other than the concepts, but the past tense, plural, etc. forms of these words? No, I don't have an issue with them being used for articles about books, films, TV shows and episodes, or whatever has that as its name. --Serge 02:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Nohat, you're right. You guys are okay.

Serge, I really disagree, but if that's the way things are, I'm not going to pull an Elonka. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 02:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

To Elonka - a lot of articles have already been moved over the last few days. You can take a look at the list futher up the page if you want. I believe you will find there is no evidence what so ever that those moves have been causing any confusion or disruption to editors on those articles. In fact, regular editors on those TV series have actually been helping in some cases.

With regards to this move - no, there's no point putting it to requested moves. Just tag it for speedy deletion. A part of the criteria under "housekeeping" allows for the deletion of redirect pages so proper page moves can be made (as oppossed to the copy and paste method). The template you should use is {{db-move|Page to be moved}}. --`/aksha 03:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Given the speedy move request, I'm withdrawing I've withdrawn my requested move. --Serge 06:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The move was done through a speedy delete of the old Smothered redirect page. --Serge 15:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• The way it is disambig'ed now seems like a reasonable compromise. If there were other episodes from other series named similarly, we'd probably have to make a separate disambig page. (Radiant) 12:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• nods* yeah...i've had to do a few (making disambiguation pages) over the last few days because it seems like there're a few names which keep getting used by TV series as episode names. --`/aksha 12:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Who voted under what poll format

The last hour I've stepped through each edit difference during the poll. I've made the following notes to show who voted during what "version" of the poll. The poll format did get changed, but I only found three different formats that contained votes.

So lets start:

Argash sets up RfC with the basic concept, pre-poll format

Izzy Dot formats a poll based on Argash's RfC summary and suggestions

Note: struck out editors are those who confirmed their vote in a later format. Editors in italics confirmed their vote later on in discussion, etc under the 2nd format.

Votes (1st format)

1. Elonka
2. MatthewFenton
3. Shannernanner
4. SigmaEpsilon
5. Marky1981
6. Wknight94
7. EEMeltonIV
8. Mnemeson
9. Josiah Rowe
10. Opark 77
11. Nohat
12. Khaosworks

Izzy Dot removes "opposes" in all three sections

Votes (1st format, continued, no "formating" has been changed)

1. Thedemonhog
2. Argash
3. Izzy Dot

I changed the bullets to numbers (* -> #) for easy counting

I make the first major change to the poll since it started (same day). In this change the two issues become separated. What people supported previously is still "true", however some of the previous editors may need to list themselves under the new oppose section of "Disambig only when necessary". I then note this in the discussion.

Votes (2nd format)

1. EnsRedShirt
2. Ned Scott
3. ThuranX
4. Ace Class Shadow
5. Jay32183
6. Xornok
7. SigmaEpsilon
8. Izhmal
9. Nihonjoe
10. Peregrinefisher
11. Wikipedical
12. Chuq

Izzy Dot makes second poll change

No votes take place in this format

I make third poll change, reverting back to 2nd format

Note: I restore Matthew's oppose of "Disambig only when necessary", which was marked as an oppose before the oppose section was created.

Votes (2nd format, continued)

1. Percy Snoodle

Shannernanner makes fourth poll change, adds oppose sections to the section issue options .

Votes (3rd format)

1. Harris000
2. Ac1983fan
3. Nohat
4. Thedemonhog
5. Josiah Rowe
6. Yaksha

I revert back to 2nd format

Votes (2nd format, continued)

1. Nohat
2. Josiah Rowe
3. Shannernanner
4. Jay32183 (vote on second issue)

Elonka makes poll change, format and re-definition of sections similar to the 1st version

No votes take place with this format

Note: Jay32183 did strike a comment because of the change, but un-struck it after it was reverted)

I revert back to 2nd format

Votes (2nd format, continued)

1. Argash
2. EEMeltonIV
3. Elonka
4. Oggleboppiter
5. Anþony
6. JHunterJ
7. AnemoneProjectors
8. Serge Issakov
9. SergeantBolt
10. GhostStalker
11. BlueSquadronRaven
12. Mickiscoole

Now lets update those lists excluding anyone who later made their vote clear.

1st format

1. Marky1981
2. Mnemeson
3. Opark 77
4. Khaosworks

2nd format

1. EnsRedShirt
2. Ned Scott
3. ThuranX
4. Ace Class Shadow
5. Jay32183
6. Xornok
7. SigmaEpsilon
8. Izhmal
9. Nihonjoe
10. Peregrinefisher
11. Wikipedical
12. Chuq
13. Nohat
14. Josiah Rowe
15. Shannernanner
16. Argash
17. EEMeltonIV
18. Oggleboppiter
19. Anþony
20. JHunterJ
21. AnemoneProjectors
22. Serge Issakov
23. SergeantBolt
24. GhostStalker
25. BlueSquadronRaven
26. Mickiscoole
27. Yaksha
28. Elonka
29. MatthewFenton
30. Wknight94
31. Percy Snoodle

3rd format

1. Harris000
2. Ac1983fan
3. Thedemonhog

So..

These editors have not updated or "confirmed" their vote:

1. Harris000
2. Ac1983fan
3. Thedemonhog
4. Marky1981
5. Mnemeson
6. Opark 77
7. Khaosworks

Now lets see who voted support for "disambig only when necessary" (Regardless of format, we know they supported this. We only don't know what they supported for Disambig title):

1. Harris000
2. Ac1983fan
3. Thedemonhog
4. Khaosworks

The only editors who didn't vote under the 2nd format and didn't note support for "disambig only when necessary" were:

1. Marky1981
2. Mnemeson
3. Opark 77

This much we know is true from the poll. -- Ned Scott 05:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad it was you and not me who had to do that! -- Chuq 07:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Very nice - and yet I bet it falls on deaf ears. And of course it's ironic to see that Elonka is one of the editors who altered the poll and is now trying to use poll-altering as a reason for appeal. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what is the problem?

At this point, i completely fail to see what the problem is.

We agree to keep the guildline as it is.

Guildlines, by definition (and common sense), are followed by default.

A lot of article moving has already happened, with no evidence of any disruption or damage caused.

We have agreed to leave the format of disambiguation as is. There is still debate about this, however people have expressed that they don't feel it's a very important issue.

There is still debate about what to do with wikiprojects that decide to disambiguate.

• Project stargate and project mortal kombat have given a go ahead to article moving.
• Project buffyverse and project star trek have not responded.
• Project lost has not decided to disambiguate (no project-wide consensus, as shown by this and this)
• Project 4400 has not decided to disambiguate (no project-wide consensus, as shwon by this)

In other words, we're arguing about a "what if" problem. Why don't we leave debating about this problem when there actually exists a wikiproject who does have project-wide consensus to disambiguate?

So unless someone would like to enlighten me on exactly what our problem is, can we just focus on...actually getting things done? As in get articles moved and deal with problems when they actually show up. --`/aksha 06:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The comments about the Lost and The 4400 projects are interesting - "have not decided to disambiguate" - that's the point of this decision, it isn't up to them to decide - they are part of WikiProject Television, which has decided to go with standard Misplaced Pages naming conventions ("do not disambiguate unless necessary"). Why don't we just start moving the Lost and 4400 episodes and be done with it? -- Chuq 07:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, i believe it isn't up to them to decide either. But the point is, the issue we're arguing about it "whether it is up to wikiprojects to decide or not". And i'm just pointing out that the issue is non-existent, since there are no wikiprojects who have "decided" to do otherwise. So why bother making such a fuss over the hypothetical situation that the lost or 4400 project may "decide" project-wide to not follow these guildlines?

Yes, they need to be moved. Should the projects in future agree to not follow naming guidelines, i'd assume another round of discussions/debate/arguments will occur here. But that's currently not the case. --`/aksha 08:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• In general, consensus among a Wikiproject cannot trump consensus among Misplaced Pages as a whole. But since there doesn't appear to be any attempt to do so anyway, the point is pretty much moot. (Radiant) 12:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

using (episode)

I just started to fix the Frasier episode names - adding redirects or fixing disambigs as needed - and found The Good Son as a good example of why I suggested "(episode)" as a disambiguator rather than the show name. Not trying to change the standard now - just pointing out an example. -- Chuq 08:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

But what happens, if another series also has an episode called "The Good Son"? Wouldn't it be easier then to have "The Good Son (Frasier)" and "The Good Son (some other series)"? Rather than "The Good Son (episode, Frasier)" and "The Good Son (episode, some other series). --`/aksha 08:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, obviously that would be The Good Son (Frasier episode) and The Good Son (Other-series episode). Just like as is done in Author! Author! - although you will notice the (Seriesname)/(Seriesname episode) difference of convention here. I have also found some examples with some film names - we have Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Frequency (film), Bedazzled (2000 film) and Gossip (2000 Swedish film) named as such - we only add as much detail as is needed to disambiguate it from other items with the same name, in these examples, nothing for the first title, Frequency, Bedazzled (1967 film) and Gossip (2000 American film). We don't use Bedazzled (2000) or Gossip (Swedish) as they are undescriptive. I hope I don't look like I am trying to undo an entire page of discussion but these examples demonstrate what I have been thinking the entire time! -- Chuq 09:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

hmm, i sort of see your point now. Personally, i don't have much of an opinion on how to disambiguate. Seeing everything (all episodes) using the same format would be nice, but i have a feeling it'll end up taking far more effort getting everyone to agree than it's worth. --`/aksha 09:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think what you're running into is the reality that how any given page is disambiguated - that is, how you determine what should go into the parenthesis - should depend much more on what the other uses of that particular name are, and much less on how other other pages within that category happen to be disambiguated. But I think most people look at the problem from the other perspective - trying to make every page within a category disambiguated consistently as being the higher priority. The extreme of that view is exemplified by U.S. cities - preferring disambiguation in the consistent format even for articles that don't need to be disambiguated. --Serge 18:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)