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A fact from Pamela Geller appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 31 August 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that American blogger Pamela Geller has strongly defended former Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps? A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2010/August.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pamela Geller article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Islamophobia

Are there any reliable sources that actually deny that many of Pamella Geller's statements are Islamophobic? If not, we don't need to qualify that and can state it as fact. Because there is certainly a long list of sources that agree that many of her statements are Islamophobic.VR _talk 14:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

You can't have it stated as a fact as there's no such thing as islamophobia. She's not phobic of them, she opposes their actions.213.205.241.129 (talk) 04:32, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

That statement makes no sense and is based on strawman logic. Unless a reliable source denies that her statements are Islamophobic, then they can be stated as fact. Shabeki (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Bizarre lede sentence

This sentence is bizarre:

• Multiple media outlets have called her "far right", while others, such as the BBC, contrast her right-wing support for small government with her culturally liberal positions on abortion and same sex marriage.

One, there is nothing notable about her views on small government, abortion and same-sex marriage. Two, the text seems intended to dispute the widely used term "far-right" for her. Third, there's no need to attribute "far-right" to "media outlets". There's also no need to put far-right in quotes.

I fixed the sentence but my edit was reverted by a blatant sockpuppet account. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:52, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

The BBC sources cited doesn't say far-right. It does say - In favour of abortion and same-sex marriages on the one hand, she is an enthusiastic supporter of right-wing small government - including cutting taxes and reducing budgets - on the other.. Would would be a mixture of right-wing and left-wing politics in the US (on marriage & reproduction vs. the rest). You can not place "far right" unqualified in the lead here - all you have is some polemic sources uses this label - and other more mainstream sources refraining from it.Icewhiz (talk) 12:18, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

It's bizarre because the bit in the middle about the SPLC keeps getting removed by people who don't like that the SPLC rightly called her a right wing extremist. It's reliably sourced and due though so it boils down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT Simonm223 (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

We already have a sentence calling her "far right." There is little added by calling her "right-wing extremist" as there would by calling her alt-right, Neo-right, or Trumpeter-Right. "Far" and "extreme" are essentially the same thing. The paragraph says "right" three times when two would do. There's no consensus for a triplicate reiteration. No one is objecting to using the SPLC as it occurs several times in the lead. That's a red-herring claim. Jason from nyc (talk)

The SPLC position on her is definitely due in the lede. There's no clear consensus to keep it out, it's reliably sourced and your removal is plain and simple WP:IDONTLIKEIT so I suggest you self-revert and put it back. Simonm223 (talk) 17:01, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

First of all you are dismissing my points as subjective ("I don't like it") without considering them. This is not conducive to a discussion seeking consensus. Try again. Jason from nyc (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

The SPLC quote is not duplicated in the lede. Your point is without merit and your conduct borders on WP:TEND. There's no demonstration of consensus; it's you who keeps reverting this statement out, to the detriment of the flow of the lede. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

We already have the SPLC calling her Islamophobic on the first paragraph in the lede - we don't need to reiterate the SPLC's position again. Icewhiz (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Biased article

"Critics believe she crosses the line from ...". Yet another biased article. The Misplaced Pages is a left wing propaganda organisation. "Opponents ...". On and on ... it's just a long condemnation, propaganda attack. Nothing about the millions of supporters. Nothing about the people that support her, the writers that agree with her. Just quotes from writers who oppose her. The whole article is politically motivated against her. Nothing to do with an encyclopaedia.213.205.241.129 (talk) 04:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

What we need on Misplaced Pages is sources - WP:RS. Do you have sources backing up the assertions you are making above?Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

You don't have sources on discussions of articles. A discussion is its own source. It's me doing it. The point I've stated is in clear English.213.205.241.129 (talk) 05:07, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I understood your point. And lets say for the sake of argument I agree - what are you specifically suggesting to change in the article? What should be removed (and why)? What should be added (based on what sources)?Icewhiz (talk) 05:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Several IPs, including this one, blocked for a month for block evasion. Doug Weller talk 18:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

grooming of Anders Behring Breivik on Pamela`s website

The article should clearly note the relationship Geller had with Breivik (Anders Behring Breivik), in the lead-up to his mass-murderous attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.209.13.212 (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

All I can find is that he was a fan, which isn't surprising - she obviously had an influence on her but I can't find a personal relationship. We can't make a claim like that about a WP:BLP without excellent sources meeting WP:RS.Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 12:14, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

You would need to show that the information is reported in articles about Geller, not just that she is mentioned in articles about Breivik. TFD (talk) 23:08, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

You cannot seem to find it because she "pulled it" from her page. Other sources should be out there. Anyway, the technical people did her IT for her, kinda like hyping pop-music search results or the Russia social media thingee. Will keep an eye out.

"right-wing extremist"

We usually attribute the SPLC. Furthermore, it would seem that most secondary sources covering Geller do not use this particular label (while they do use several other labels) - e.g. this BBC profile does not use this language). When attaching contentious labels to BLPs we generally follow labelling used in a wide spectrum of sources. There are several secondary RSes covering Geller over the years - which other sources have used this label? Icewhiz (talk) 04:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I will further note that my reading of the cited SPLC source does not support "right-wing extremist" - I do not see that language there. The SPLC does use the extremist label as well as anti-Muslim - but not right-wing - please provide a quote supporting this.Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Youll note that? But you didnt note that it says Through her website, Geller has promulgated some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories found on the extreme right, including claims that President Obama is the love child of Malcolm X; that Obama was once involved with a "crack whore"; that his birth certificate is a forgery; that his late mother posed nude for pornographic photos; and that he was a Muslim in his youth who never renounced Islam. But sure, one of the more controversial ascending stars of the American extreme right. nableezy - 06:25, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

The Independent is possibly usable for American extreme-right. The SPLC does not support the specific assertion.Icewhiz (talk) 06:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Right now, you have an epithet at the beginning of the 1st para., supported by an SPLC cit., and then at the end you have another, different epithet, supported by the same SPLC cit. It's as if Misplaced Pages has decided the ultimate arbiter of human thought is the SPLC. Sad. Anyway, the SPLC clearly says Geller is Islamophobic, but nowhere does it say she's a "right-wing extremist." XavierItzm (talk) 07:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, SPLC doesnt support it, despite this already being quoted on this page

Through her website, Geller has promulgated some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories found on the extreme right, including claims that President Obama is the love child of Malcolm X; that Obama was once involved with a "crack whore"; that his birth certificate is a forgery; that his late mother posed nude for pornographic photos; and that he was a Muslim in his youth who never renounced Islam.

And also on this page there being another source that explicitly supports what you removed. I dont believe we put in quotes "right-wing extremist", making the argument that the SPLC does not say "right-wing extremist" a straw man. SPLC very clearly supports that, but regardless, when protection is lifted, Ill add the Independent source. nableezy - 16:45, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

The page is in a category called extremist files it has the word extremist on the left margin. The text of the article uses the word extremist an additional 12 times. The source quite clearly supports the statement and the argument against looks a lot like a POV motivatged WP:TEND. Simonm223 (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

It just doesn't support "right wing extremist". It supports extremist. It supports anti-Muslim. It support spreading conspiracy theories. Nowhere does the SPLC say Geller herself is right-wing - and they probably are careful since she actually isn't that easy to pigeonhole on the US spectrum (e.g. given her abortion stance).Icewhiz (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

At the end of the first paragraph we have " The Southern Poverty Law Center has described Geller as "Islamophobic". - which we could modify to "anti-Muslim extremist". Icewhiz (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

is also a contributor to the far-right Breitbart News. Right there in the source. Which calls her an extremist over and over again. As I said, your argument against the characterization of the source is the definition of WP:TEND. Simonm223 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

No, I'm sticking to what the SPLC actually says - which is extremist and anti-Muslim. Icewhiz (talk) 17:09, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not really seeing justification for adding such a strong value judgement into the first sentence of the article, in WP's voice, in a BLP. I think we'd be better off getting SPLC back into the last paragraph by improving the wording of the content that was edit-warred out here. VQuakr (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I think what is important is explaining what she is known for, which is her views on Islam. She may be a right wing extremist and it may be possible to source that, but it does not really help readers. Her perceived extremism mostly relates to her views on Islam. So anti-Islamist or similar wording is more descriptive. TFD (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

It isnt just possible to source, it already has been sourced. one of the more controversial ascending stars of the American extreme right. nableezy - 17:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

RFC: "right-wing extremist" in the first sentence

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Should the descriptor "right-wing extremist" be added to the first sentence of the article as proposed here and discussed in the talk page section above?

Previous RfCs relevant to the descriptor of "right wing" and/or the wording of the first sentences of the article include:

• Rfc - Pamela Geller - Anti-Muslim?
• RfC: inclusion of "right wing"
• Request for comment

05:00, 17 January 2019 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by VQuakr (talk • contribs)

Discussion

• No. As a source for "right-wing extremist" has not been presented (we do have the SPLC calling her an anti-Muslim extremist, and some sources calling her right-wing, while others such as the BBC note she's been denounced as bigoted, but frame her political stance as - "In favour of abortion and same-sex marriages on the one hand, she is an enthusiastic supporter of right-wing small government - including cutting taxes and reducing budgets - on the other." - mixed). Geller is mainly known for her anti-Muslim advocacy (and not for her general political opinions) - and that's what we should be stressing. We do already quote the SPLC at the end of the first paragraph - it may be possible to tweak language there somewhat, or include a bit more of what the SPLC says. Icewhiz (talk) 10:22, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

That seems to be a dishonest claim, given your comment here that the Independent source that says one of the more controversial ascending stars of the American extreme right is acceptable for "American extreme right". nableezy - 11:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

WP:NPA please. The Independent supports extreme right - not extremist. As for right/left - other sources disagree (or paint a more complex picture) - e.g. the BBC. What all sources agree on (and what this subject is notable for) - is anti-Muslim. Icewhiz (talk) 11:52, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, the SPLC supports it, but even if one were to make the pedantic argument that it does not say both "extreme" and "right wing" in the same sentence, the Independent very clearly explicitly supports right wing extremist. nableezy - 11:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
• No, We already have a sentence calling her "far right." There is little added by calling her "right-wing extremist" as there would by calling her alt-right, Neo-right, or Trumpeter-Right. "Far" and "extreme" are essentially the same thing. The lead would say "right" three times when two would do. There's no need for a triplicate reiteration. No one is objecting to using the SPLC as it occurs several times in the lead. I agree with the consensus that describing her as anti-Islamic (or equivalent) is more specific, exacting, and sums up the criticism in the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:02, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

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