Misplaced Pages

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This page has been mentioned by a media organization: Marcus Gilmer (October 3, 2018). "Misplaced Pages demotes Breitbart to fake news". Mashable. Retrieved October 5, 2018. Misplaced Pages, the internet's crowd-sourced encyclopedia, has declared "fake news" on far-right site Breitbart, deeming the outlet an unreliable source for facts.

• "When opinions are clearly factual, and the opposing views are fringe ones pushed mostly by unreliable sources, we state the facts and ignore the fringe by giving the fringe the weight it deserves, in some cases no mention at all. Framing factual opinions as mere "opinions" poisons the well and serves to undermine the factual nature of the content. It would serve to frame facts as mere opinion which can be ignored, and frame debunked conspiracy theories as factual." -- BullRangifer

• "Claims made with misleading evidence or no evidence whatsoever--especially in political contexts--should always be referred to as 'false' when they are utterly unfounded. If any evidence ever emerges for Seth Rich's involvement--or for any captive koalas--then another term should be considered." -- FatGandhi 15:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

• "I think this idea that there is no truth is the thread that will run through the rest of the Trump presidency, as it has his entire candidacy and his presidency so far." -- Nicolle Wallace

• "The president is possibly the single most unreliable source for any claim of fact ever to grace the pages of WP." -- MPants 04:57, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• "For the 'whataboutism' thing to work, you need an actual 'about' to 'what'." -- Calton 21:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• "Fox News is no longer the propaganda arm of the Republican Party. The Republican Party is the legislative arm of Fox News." -- David Atkins

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23,TB, RS stash

Hello

I have heard through the grapevine that you have had some personal losses recently. I just want to wish you the best. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:00, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I've heard nothing (don't even know where the grapevine is), but I'll add my condolences. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern. It's much appreciated. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Gandydancer, please AGF and spare me the vitriol. I don't need the grief. I've got more than enough for several lifetimes. Right now nothing in life for many thousand people, my family included, is functioning normally, and won't for a very long time, maybe never. We're alive, barely. My memory is totally out of whack, and I was being polite. I finished my comment, and then later realized I hadn't pinged you. If you activated your email, I could explain. I have done so to Cullen328 and Mandruss. They understand. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

You did nothing wrong--I was being overly sensitive. BR, I want you to know that some of us really do appreciate what you have done to keep WP's political articles honest and unbiased for the past two years. I watch over certain articles, MT's for one, but you have been down in the trenches fighting the battle for all this time while I have stayed on the sidelines working on less difficult articles. In fact someone recently gave me a brownie for one and upped it to "a nice glass of whiskey" when I complained about how meager just a brownie was. OK, just hang in there while I go shopping for some fine whiskey...or perhaps there is something else or a special brand you prefer??? Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 16:42, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. All of the above sounds good. Would that brownie have any "herb" in it? After 15 years here, that would be nice. (Actually, I haven't touched pot since 1973.) -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter message

Hello, BullRangifer. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Misplaced Pages arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Just learned...

I don't know what happened, BR, just that something did - and I hope it has nothing to do with this issue. I stopped by to wish you the best, and I hope that whatever pain and sorrow you're dealing with now will soon pass. Kindest regards... 20:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Fortunately that issue was handled and I seem to be in the clear. It's a very different type of issue. I'll explain by email. Thanks so much for your concern. You have a good heart. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:56, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

The Signpost: 1 December 2018

• From the editor: Time for a truce

• Op-ed: Looking back, looking forward: A beginner's experience on Misplaced Pages

• Special report: The Christmas wishlist

• Opinion: The blogosphere migrates to Galaxy WMF

• News and notes: Reviewer of the year, WikiCup winner, and the 2019 Wikimedia Summit

• Reflections: Misplaced Pages, history, and the 100th anniversary of Armistice Day

• In the media: Court-ordered article redaction, paid editing, and rock stars

• Discussion report: Farewell, Mediation Committee

• Arbitration report: A long break ends

• Traffic report: Queen reigns for four weeks straight

• Gallery: Intersections

• Recent research: Why do the most active Wikipedians burn out?; only 4% of students vandalize

• Essay: No one cares about your garage band

• Humour: The dark side of our favorite root vegetable

• From the archives: Ars longa, vita brevis

Administrators' newsletter – December 2018

News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2018).

Administrator changes

Al Ameer son • Randykitty • Spartaz

Boson • Daniel J. Leivick • Efe • Esanchez7587 • Fred Bauder • Garzo • Martijn Hoekstra • Orangemike

Interface administrator changes

Deryck Chan

Guideline and policy news

• Following a request for comment, the Mediation Committee is now closed and will no longer be accepting case requests.
• A request for comment is in progress to determine whether members of the Bot Approvals Group should satisfy activity requirements in order to remain in that role.
• A request for comment is in progress regarding whether to change the administrator inactivity policy, such that administrators "who have made no logged administrative actions for at least 12 months may be desysopped". Currently, the policy states that administrators "who have made neither edits nor administrative actions for at least 12 months may be desysopped".
• A proposal has been made to temporarily restrict editing of the Main Page to interface administrators in order to mitigate the impact of compromised accounts.

Technical news

• Administrators and bureaucrats can no longer unblock themselves unless they placed the block initially. This change has been implemented globally. See also this ongoing village pump discussion (permalink).
• To complement the aforementioned change, blocked administrators will soon have the ability to block the administrator that placed their block to mitigate the possibility of a compromised administrator account blocking all other active administrators.
• Since deployment of Partial blocks on Test Misplaced Pages, several bugs were identified. Most of them are now fixed. Administrators are encouraged to test the new deployment and report new bugs on Phabricator or leave feedback on the Project's talk page. You can request administrator access on the Test Wiki here.

Arbitration

• Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee Elections is open to eligible editors until Monday 23:59, 3 December 2018. Please review the candidates and, if you wish to do so, submit your choices on the voting page.

Miscellaneous

• In late November, an attacker compromised multiple accounts, including at least four administrator accounts, and used them to vandalize Misplaced Pages. If you have ever used your current password on any other website, you should change it immediately. Sharing the same password across multiple websites makes your account vulnerable, especially if your password was used on a website that suffered a data breach. As these incidents have shown, these concerns are not pure fantasies.
• Misplaced Pages policy requires administrators to have strong passwords. To further reinforce security, administrators should also consider enabling two-factor authentication. A committed identity can be used to verify that you are the true account owner in the event that your account is compromised and/or you are unable to log in.

Obituaries

• Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (Raymond Arritt) passed away on 14 November 2018. Boris joined Misplaced Pages as Raymond arritt on 8 May 2006 and was an administrator from 30 July 2007 to 2 June 2008.

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IP edit of Snopes

Regarding your remark to the IP editor of the Snopes article, please note that the last edit by that IP has not been reverted. (Maybe the IP's last edit is OK; I'm not sure.) —BarrelProof (talk) 08:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, but how?

Not sure how to say "thank you" for your impressive work at List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations? Template:Trump Barnstar has, well, Trump on it. If you you like tea (or coffee), or maybe something with ethanol? Wiki-snacks? Or maybe Template:Curious cat, or even something less dignified and muckraker-ish (Hopefully you don't find it offensive, but as intended):

X1\ (talk) 01:04, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Love it! We have two dogs and one cat. The latter is missing in the Camp Fire (2018). We hope he survived and will be reunited with us soon. Life's a bit of a mess right now, but we're alive. Cats are one of those things that make life more special. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 04:24, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Holy shit! I am glad to hear the rest of you are together. Cats are semi-wild, really they domesticated us. They are smart (except for string and laser pointers), so if your cat wants to re-domesticate you, they'll show-up. Again, I am so sorry to hear of your intense challenges. Thank you for continuing to edit here. X1\ (talk) 23:40, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Editing here preserves my sanity. I just don't have as much time right now. Things will return to normal at some point in the distant future. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:13, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

• I saw you got busy a couple of days ago. Take care. Drmies (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks. Being homeless is a busy situation. Time flies with seeking aid, meeting appointments, and waiting in long, long lines. If this were a normal "lost their home in a fire" situation, we'd be able to buy another home quickly and get on with our lives. In this area there is absolutely nothing available. Dumping 45,000 plus people, within a few hours, into a city of 90,000, just doesn't work. Every single rental, home, and storage container was immediately taken, with most people left without proper shelter. Many have left the area to stay with family elsewhere, but many are forced by other circumstances to stay in the area. We are among those. It's more difficult for us. We're safe, warm, and okay for now. This nightmare will end someday. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:19, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Merry Merry

		Happy Christmas!
		Hello BullRangifer, Early in A Child's Christmas in Wales the young Dylan and his friend Jim Prothero witness smoke pouring from Jim's home. After the conflagration has been extinguished Dylan writes that Nobody could have had a noisier Christmas Eve. And when the firemen turned off the hose and were standing in the wet, smoky room, Jim's Aunt, Miss. Prothero, came downstairs and peered in at them. Jim and I waited, very quietly, to hear what she would say to them. She said the right thing, always. She looked at the three tall firemen in their shining helmets, standing among the smoke and cinders and dissolving snowballs, and she said, "Would you like anything to read?" My thanks to you for your efforts to keep the 'pedia readable in case the firemen chose one of our articles :-) Best wishes to you and yours and happy editing in 2019. MarnetteD|Talk 08:31, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

History and Charges

Hi. A thought experiment. You are charged today with 10 felonies. On Monday, you are tried, and convicted of zero felonies. Do details of your charges appear in a BLP? I argue no. On the law side, American prosecutors follow RPC 3.8(f) and other rules, which make them say familiar lines: "These charges are only accusations and the subject is innocent until proven guilty in court." On the WP side, a BLP is a conservative account. A person known for crimes, as this Dutch man is, is only fairly known for crimes he committed. The encyclopedia shouldn't even mention charges that weren't proven. I recently removed 11,000 characters from Suge Knight's BLP of lengthy speculation about how he might have killed Biggie and Tupac. While a wiki is a powerful place for such speculations, none of them belong on Misplaced Pages. Maybe there's some kind of reach about "Folk tales about involvement in murders" but nope, I don't even think that fits here. Some facts don't go in the encyclopedia. In criminal matters, removing the pre-verdict noise helps history and the reader understand what the person is known for. Mcfnord (talk) 14:15, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

What you left in the section "Murders of Tupac Shakur" is totally unacceptable. It makes no sense and is unsourced. Actually look at it.

You deleted very public history. Millions of people know about it. Per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, notable accusations, including false ones, must be described, and denials (per my change to that policy) must also be mentioned. When accusations are so publicly known, their resolution is important to document, and the dropping of charges, clearing, declarations of innocence, etc. are just as important, maybe more so, than the convictions of guilt.

Yes, due weight applies, and sometimes some paring is in order, but you have trashed the hard work of numerous editors and deleted many RS. Follow WP:PRESERVE and WP:PUBLICFIGURE. We document the good and the bad. We document all aspects of the roller coaster ride, from start to finish. Yes, some of it can be summarized better, but get a consensus for such drastic changes. If your arguments are reasonable, other editors will welcome skillful reductions of fluff. Use the talk pages to show how a "before and after" actually looks, then get consensus for your proposed "after" version(s).

Right now you look more like a rogue, solo-editing, blind butcher than a skilled surgeon who works collaboratively and through consensus. You no doubt have thought about your edits and know exactly why you're doing it, but others need to be involved and understand your process. They are not obligated to accept it all on faith. Exercise caution when deleting properly sourced content. Look at it as the property of someone else, so remove or alter it gently and wisely. Of course it doesn't "belong" to anyone, but it represents the good faith hard work of other editors, so show some respect. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:21, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Editors work hard on good faith mistakes all the time. Amazing how I haven't thrown a single word away on Misplaced Pages, due to its advanced tracking system. But what belongs in a BLP?

I re-read BLP rules and it generally doesn't say what you're saying. Suge Knight, a notorious criminal, is known for many crimes (and some productive deeds). Speculation about who he murdered is outside the scope of BLP, unless perhaps contextualized that these are unsubstantiated claims. Where does Misplaced Pages allow unsubstantiated claims? And in a BLP?

To leave the factual statements about two men related to Death Row murdered is a better outcome than leaving speculation that a BLP murdered them.

That's my position, but I'm new. Regrettably, you haven't dissuaded me of much. WP:PRESERVE applies well everywhere except to BLPs. I expect together we'll be examining BLP brass tacks in the near future. Here we are, involved together to reach a consensus. Throughout WP, the details of a legal matter accumulate as they are discovered by the press. Where can I find a non-crowdsourced encyclopedia these days? And how will its coverage of 10 criminal charges resulting 1 conviction be covered? Not like a police procedural play-by-play, I imagine. So there's a typical pattern that requires routine culling after verdicts and plea agreements are established. To some degree, the matters of state, as represented in the Mueller investigation, may be different, but unproven claims simply aren't handled properly without modification by, say, some rogue. You can, roguely, if you wish, review my entire history of changes and roll back every last pattern of unsubstantiated claims removal, if you're that sort of rogue unpersuaded by my appeals to BLP rules. In time I hope we reach consensus about this particularly strict WP policy. Mcfnord (talk) 18:27, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material. That's you. Regarding speculation that Knight murdered two men, is the work you reverted written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy? Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. This also applies to the unproven accusations you restored about the Dutch man. Call them charges or whatever you like. Mcfnord (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

"Where does Misplaced Pages allow unsubstantiated claims? And in a BLP?" Very specifically in WP:PUBLICFIGURE, which ignores privacy. Public figures get little protection, unlike private persons, who are treated much more daintily.

These principles are also found in libel laws. Public persons can be libeled nearly at will in the USA, and they can rarely succeed in defending themselves in court, if the person making the injurious claims believes them to be true. Even worse is claims made on the internet. A specific law was made for that which protects anyone who republishes the libelous statements, even if they know them to be libelous. Only the originator of the false statements can be sued, and then still with difficulty. (See Barrett v. Rosenthal for more about that. It's an unfortunate ruling, IMO.) Many public persons just ignore the matter, and Presidents NEVER sue for libel (well, rightful presidents...IOW not Trump).

If the conditions mentioned at PUBLICFIGURE are fulfilled, then the claims, charges, rumors, libelous statements, whatever, should be documented here, but then your other words come into play (contextualize, write conservatively, attribute, etc.). Unfortunately for Suge Knight, his privacy is not respected, unlike non-public persons. If multiple RS have made the claims, then we are supposed to document them. That is from BLP. We are uncensored in many ways. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 01:30, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

We might not agree on how libel and criminal law work today, but at issue is how PUBLICFIGURE works. Also at issue is the neutrality of prosecutor statements themselves, and how they relate to court conclusions. Nine times out of ten, the court's conclusion is the best, most neutral summary of events, so much so that inclusion of unsubstantiated charges post-conviction violate UNDUE. I'm still not decided about non-conviction details (like arrests and charges) of PUBLICFIGUREs, but see many problems with their emphasis as neutral explanations of alleged crimes. I don't think PUBLICFIGURE changes that much for me. Mcfnord (talk) 01:41, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm still not sure if/how the notifier works, but I've written to you here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Alex_van_der_Zwaan

This man's not PUBLICFIGURE due to having one sole involvement in public discourse. I'm sure we can agree to collapse his noteworthy facets into the Mueller narrative. Or let's quibble about your preference for listing his criminal charges. We can start there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord (talk • contribs) 01:48, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Joe was charged with Foo.

After conviction, reflexively change to:

Joe was charged with Foo, but the court found Joe not guilty of the charge.<citation needed>

Charges are clouds you might want in front of your clarity. If you want them, then after conviction, each charge should be challenged, if indeed it feels important to keep. You can go look up whether the charge was substantiated. Until you do that, or someone does that, it's conservative to doubt the claim. This seems like the logical progression of conservative biography. Maurice Clemmons is a subject I want to fold into his singular claim to notability, the 2009 Lakewood shooting. Take a look at the 2009 shooting page, under Accomplices. I've been trying to finish that, but unless the topic is prosecutorial miscondict, it's critical in that mess to find conclusions rather than mistrial after mistrail. Fundamentally, listing charges without immediately connecting to resolutions of those charges (when known) is not conservative. We cover the conclusions, and can't let interstitial claims and views (especially claims of fact untested by trials) get in the way and mislead readers about what history, not the various daily speculations, substantiates.

You have written quite a bit, and clearly have developed informed views. At some point you'll return from real life to attend school here with me regarding conservative BLP magic. Accept my Alex van der Zwaan change because it's on the money. That private man, notable for one thing and not deserving of a page, deserves conclusive, rather than speculative and often sensationalist, coverage of his criminal deeds. Prosecutors can be sensationalist, too. Courts, not prosecutors, qualify as NPOV sources in biographies. Mcfnord (talk) 00:29, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Looks like our collab isn't working well. How many will you harm by subverting BLP principles? Let's go to Misplaced Pages court! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord (talk • contribs) 02:45, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Stop treating this disagreement like a battlefield. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 04:11, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Start responding to specific concerns. Mcfnord (talk) 06:11, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

The Signpost: 24 December 2018

• From the editors: Where to draw the line in reporting?

• Op-ed: Misplaced Pages not trumped by Trump appointee

• Special report: The Signpost got 380,000+ views in 2018, sounds reasonable enough, right?

• News and notes: Some wishes do come true

• In the media: Political hijinks

• Discussion report: A new record low for RfA

• WikiProject report: Articlegenesis

• Arbitration report: Year ends with one active case

• Traffic report: Queen dethroned by U.S. presidents

• Gallery: Sun and Moon, water and stone

• Blog: News from the WMF

• Humour: I believe in Bigfoot

• Essay: Requests for medication

• From the archives: Compromised admin accounts – again

Administrators' newsletter – January 2019

News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2018).

Administrator changes Galobtter Orangemike BorgQueen • Davidruben • Ocee • Revolving Bugbear • Theda • There'sNoTime • Timc • Tijuana Brass • Tristessa de St Ange Bureaucrat changes Addshore

CheckUser changes Joe Roe • SilkTork Euryalus • Newyorkbrad • There'sNoTime Oversight changes AGK • Joe Roe • SilkTork Euryalus • Newyorkbrad • There'sNoTime

Guideline and policy news

• There are a number of new or changed speedy deletion criteria, each previously part of WP:CSD#G6:

1. G14 (new): Disambiguation pages that disambiguate only zero or one existing pages are now covered under the new G14 criterion (discussion). This is {{db-disambig}}; the text is unchanged and candidates may be found in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as unnecessary disambiguation pages.
2. R4 (new): Redirects in the file namespace (and no file links) that have the same name as a file or redirect at Commons are now covered under the new R4 criterion (discussion). This is {{db-redircom}}; the text is unchanged.
3. G13 (expanded): Userspace drafts containing only the default Article Wizard text are now covered under G13 along with other drafts (discussion). Such blank drafts are now eligible after six months rather than one year, and taggers continue to use {{db-blankdraft}}.

• The Wikimedia Foundation now requires all interface administrators to enable two-factor authentication.
• Members of the Bot Approvals Group (BAG) are now subject to an activity requirement. After two years without any bot-related activity (e.g. operating a bot, posting on a bot-related talk page), BAG members will be retired from BAG following a one-week notice.

Technical news

• Starting on December 13, the Wikimedia Foundation security team implemented new password policy and requirements. Privileged accounts (administrators, bureaucrats, checkusers, oversighters, interface administrators, bots, edit filter managers/helpers, template editors, et al.) must have a password at least 10 characters in length. All accounts must have a password:

1. At least 8 characters in length
2. Not in the 100,000 most popular passwords (defined by the Password Blacklist library)
3. Different from their username

User accounts not meeting these requirements will be prompted to update their password accordingly. More information is available on MediaWiki.org.

• Blocked administrators may now block the administrator that blocked them. This was done to mitigate the possibility that a compromised administrator account would block all other active administrators, complementing the removal of the ability to unblock oneself outside of self-imposed blocks. A request for comment is currently in progress to determine whether the blocking policy should be updated regarding this change.
• {{Copyvio-revdel}} now has a link to open the history with the RevDel checkboxes already filled in.

Arbitration

• Following the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee: AGK, Courcelles, GorillaWarfare, Joe Roe, Mkdw, SilkTork.

Miscellaneous

• Accounts continue to be compromised on a regular basis. Evidence shows this is entirely due to the accounts having the same password that was used on another website that suffered a data breach. If you have ever used your current password on any other website, you should change it immediately.
• Around 22% of admins have enabled two-factor authentication, up from 20% in June 2018. If you haven't already enabled it, please consider doing so. Regardless of whether you use 2FA, please practice appropriate account security by ensuring your password is secure and unique to Wikimedia.

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It's The Truth

Re:

Debates about the Truth are debates with no possible resolution except for a count of the number of editors on each side; i.e. a democratic vote. Truth has no basis in Misplaced Pages policy—for good reason—and by going there you validate a lot of the other extra-policy arguments that occur in these discussions. I just stick to RS and leave the word Truth out of it. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:37, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree. We go by verifiability, not truth, but with this subject, we're dealing with verifiable, RS, documentation of falsehoods debunked by the facts, and that produces the hard data statistics which we get from fact checkers. So yes, I understand what you're saying, and it's certainly something to keep in mind, but I'm not fighting for "the truth", but for our daring to properly use the abundant verifiable documentation of his falsehoods. We have been far too reticent to use them to actually state that Trump "lies". We've even created ad hoc, non-policy-based, special exceptions for Trump, rules we haven't used for other presidents, to avoid using the words "lie" and"liar", even though RS were using them. That's completely non-NPOV editorial behavior. We should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing fringe Trump editors, who don't follow RS, to trump our practices in their efforts to protect him. That's simply BS. We are not Trumpipedia. We are not Alternative Facts Central. Chuck Todd was right: Trump's alternative facts are indeed falsehoods.

The "misleading" statements are obviously a bit of a gray area, but like the outright lies and falsehoods, we stick to the RS and their choice of wording, whether it's falsehoods, lies, liar, misleading, exaggeration, gaslighting, etc. The days of refusing to call Trump a "liar" are over. If he should and can know better, then we don't care if he actually does know. We don't care about determining his motives anymore, since his main motive is to do whatever, no matter how dishonest, to deceive in order to win. That's all he cares about. Truth is never a factor in his thinking. If he repeats a lie again and again, then we call him a liar, and that's what he does all the time. Fact checkers even created a new category because of him (and he's the only one who inhabits that region, as normal liars don't go there), the Bottomless Pinocchio. Wow! That's reserved for someone who has zero credibility, no moral compass, "no external reference points" (Comey's description), and no respect for truth.

BTW, I want to thank you again for your help in the situation we're in. You have no idea how much that means. Things are starting to look up. There is hope ahead. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 19:38, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Dossier

Hi, BR. About that essay-sized edit you were proposing to make to the dossier article (and I admit I didn't read all of it, and probably nobody did; it kind of defines TL/DR): I am willing to see if it can be trimmed down to a usable section in the article. Where do you propose I do that? Not at the talk page, certainly, but someplace where we can both work on it and talk about it. How about putting it in a user space draft under your own name? Might you consider first trying, yourself, to look at it with a critical eye toward trimming it?

P.S. Oh, I found it: it's in sandbox 5, right? Where we can see that it would add another 30 kb if added to the article. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:10, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you got my ping, I assume. Please read the whole thing before you start. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 04:15, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

As you can see I have been working today on trying to trim some of the bloat from the article, which at 225 kb is much, much bigger than it should be. For comparison the entire Donald Trump article is 386 kb. There is a lot of unnecessary detail, and some redundancy because the same subject is discussed in several places. I'm inclined to continue working on that, a section at a time, and maybe tackle the conspiracy theories material later. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:08, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I think we need to keep something in mind when comparing article size. Trump has a million subarticles, whereas this is just one article to cover a very notable subject that's still mentioned every single day. It is the key and roadmap for the whole Russia investigation. Just keep that in mind. It's very important. Also try to save the references. Such BLP sensitive stuff must have multiple sources, per WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Otherwise, simplifying is often welcome. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 04:15, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Annual DS alert refresh - American politics

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have recently shown interest in post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Misplaced Pages's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor. Just getting you current!

―Mandruss ☎ 18:56, 24 January 2019 (UTC)Template:Z33

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press