Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:59, 17 November 2006

Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal
Article	Starwood Festival
Status	open
Request date	Unknown
Requesting party	Unknown
Parties involved	Timmy12,Hanuman Das,Rosencomet
Mediator(s)	Geo.plrd
Comment	Room on my schedule

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Mediation Case: 2006-11-03 Starwood Festival

Please observe Misplaced Pages:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Misplaced Pages talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

Request made by: Salix alba (talk) 16:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Where is the issue taking place?

Starwood Festival and other pages linking to it, in particular

Silver RavenWolf

Who's involved?

User:Mattisse

User:Timmy12

User:Hanuman Das

User:Rosencomet

User:Salix alba

User:Calton

User:BostonMA

User:Ekajati

What's going on?

A long story User:Rosencomet, who is connected to the event, added a lot of information to the Starwood Festival page. He also created (or expanded) pages on a large number of performers who have performed at the event. On each of these pages there is an internal link to Starwood and also exteranl links to the pages to the Starwood site.

Disputes have centered on two main points

1. Citations on the Starwood Festival (the start of the dispute but largely solved now)
2. Whether it is appropriate to include reference to starwood on pages liking to it.

The user conduct about this have been poor. Various sockpuppets and false sockpuppet aligations (now largely resolved). Numerious instances of failing to be WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:BITE.

Currently User:Timmy12 and User:Hanuman Das are at odds over whether its appropriate to include critical material of Silver RavenWolf. Neither user is happy for the other to add material on their talk pages, and have frequently removed posts from the other.

Actually, I am the one who objects to the inclusion of inadequately sourced criticism in an article about a living person. I have no objection to adequately sourced material. WP:LIVING requires to err on the safe side if the sources are dubious ones. The "criticisms" which are being added are from blogs, self-published websites, and amateur book reviews. These are not up to the standards required by WP:V, WP:RS, WP:LIVING or WP:EL. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 17:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why these issues have been lumped together, but as to the Silver Ravenwolf criticisms (which I have not, as yet, weighed in on) I don't see any reason to include "negative things people have said about the subject" in an encyclopedia article. The sources are not noteworthy, as Ekajati has pointed out, and it would be a terrible precedent to include a section of random detractors' statements in authors' articles. Where would it end?Rosencomet 16:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

What would you like to change about that?

The discussions follow WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA.

Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?

Open discussion fine by me.

Mediator response

I'll mediate. I believe that it is acceptable to add critical material to balance an article. Geo. 20:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

See my comment above. This is inadequately sourced material and the article is about a living person. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 17:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Compromise offers

This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.

One way to resolve the dispute is to arrive an an objective criteia as to when it is appropriate to include a reference to Starwood fesitval on a particular performers page. While a link on the starwood website or the performers tour dates established that a performer appeared at Starwood, it does not establish that this performance was notable. It is not standard practice in wikipedia to list all the places where a performer has performed.

Such an objective criteria would be a third party source which establishes a link between the performer and starwood. --Salix alba (talk) 12:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't really understand this. Is this some new requirement just on links to the Starwood Festival?

Please reread this comment on your talk page. --BostonMA 21:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see other pages adding "third party sources" to all their citations. This festival is considered the premier event of it's type, it has had a 26-year unbroken run, has numerous references listed in its article (including write-ups by notable journalists like Paul Krassner), has been mentioned in several books, has featured several dozens of speakers and entertainers that are notable enough to have their own articles, and many have had multiple appearances over decades. It seems that if the subject of the article is less known than Starwood I'm told that the subject must not be notable enough to have an article, and if they're MORE notable than Starwood I'm told that their participation in the event is not notable. If I don't cite the source, it gets a tag for lacking citation, and if I do it gets called linkspam, and if I establish multiple appearances (which might support notability) I'm told there are too many links to the same page... and if I just provide one link to a search engine page on which one can find a full list of appearances, it's called a "disguised link". I can't seem to please those who want to delete these citations and this info, and I wonder if it really has anything to do with "notability".

Starwood is a unique event, which is both the premier festival in the American Neo-Pagan community and one of the premier events in the Consciousness Exploration movement today. No other event I know of brings together such a wide array of interest groups expressly to promote interaction between them, rather than just as a side-effect of shared interests. It's presentors consider participation a legitimate credit, and a simple look at the roster of past speakers and entertainers illustrates why. I could provide letters and quotes from many of them about the event, like these: , but it would just be called "ad-like" and "promotional", I'm sure. I just have to ask again: does every properly-cited piece of information require "third party sources", or is this just some new obstacle to inclusion of a valid and factual credit, just like so many others that seem to go unchallenged? Rosencomet 00:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Over on the RfC two admins have agreed that there are too many links to starwood and that these count as spam.

As with everything on wikipedia we should try to assert all the claims. There is a greater value in a third party saying starwood is the premier neo-pagan festival than in you saying the same thing. Being connected to the event give you one particular view of the world and its easy to see the world from that prospective. In wikipedia it takes a mixing of peoples different view to create a ballanced encyclopedia.

Whilst some of the performers do espose Neo-Pagan ideas, other such as comic book artist Michael T. Gilbert do not show any strong conection to the movement. For these it becomes undue weight to list one apperance among many. --Salix alba (talk) 08:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I disagree. First, I did not claim that starwood is the premier neo-pagan festival IN THE STARWOOD ARTICLE, nor would I; it was simply part of a discussion. I agree that this would be promotional, unless I could put in a quote by someone notable in a print medium, for instance, and say that HE called it that. I probably wouldn't do it even then.

Second, it is precisely BECAUSE it is a unique event that Michael T. Gilbert's appearance at Starwood is notable, and because it was the first time a comic book writer and artist appeared at such an event (and, obviously, the first time he did), which I mentioned in the article before you deleted it. I know, in fact, of no other example (although Paul Mavrides was booked for Starwood 2003, but had to cancel for health reasons). You seem to say that if he doesn't appear at more Neo-Pagan events, or at this one more than once (a requirement you seem to have simply made up), that the mention is not notable because I haven't demonstrated a "strong conection to the movement" (another requirement you seem to have simply made up); but if he DOES appear at other events, the mention is not notable because it's being given "undue weight".

Third, you offer not a single cited appearance by Gilbert ANYWHERE ELSE, certainly not outside of comic conventions and book-signings, yet you say that this one is being given undue weight "among many". Where is your research to support that? And, as I've asked before, where is the requirement for a "third party source".

Please reread this comment on your talk page. --BostonMA 21:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I have done so, and I still think the argument below is valid. If the only purpose of a citation saying that someone offered a class as part of the cirriculum of an educational program or performed at a concert, citing the published and publically available program booklet of that event should be enough. It is ridiculous to require that a newspaper or magazine sent reporters to cover the class or concert. And I don't see any such requirement being made generally on similar information in other articles. Rosencomet 17:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If I say a speaker is on the faculty of a university, what more do I need than to cite the catalog listing of that semester indicating that it is so? Must I find a newspaper article or a magazine reference saying the same to make it notable? The same goes for saying that an actor was in a particular play, or a musician played an event. A third party source would only support that the claim is FACTUAL, not notable. Plenty of non-notable bits of information get written down. Saying a fact is notable is not the same as saying it is news, or that it was well-reported.

A catalog listing provides evidence (partial and incomplete, but evidence nonetheless) about the factuality of an assertion that a given faculty member taught a particular course. However, Misplaced Pages is not a compendium of everything factual. That so-and-so taught such-and-such a course may or may not be notable. If mention of the course is made in third party media, that is some evidence that the course was notable. It provides such evidence because an independent source found it worthwhile to make note of that fact. You are correct that being notable is not the same as being in the news. Being reviewed by independent media is one form of evidence that an event is notable. Do you have another test of notability that you would like to offer for appearances at starwood events? --BostonMA 17:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You seem to first decide that the mention is not proper, delete it, THEN come up with some rationalization for the action. When one doesn't work, you try another, even if they contradict each other, because you are determined to see it gone whatever the reason. If I accept this deletion, do I have to look forward to the same treatment of every Starwood mention on every article, with new hoops to jump through and made-up requirements enforced by you and your buddies solely on these articles? I'm not accusing you in particular of stalking, but I am asking: when will this end? Rosencomet 19:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• I support the suggestion of Salix alba (talk). Hopefully it would enable all of us proceed constructively in resolving our misunderstandings. There seems to be genuine disagreement over how many and what kinds of links are appropriate for the Starwood Festival and related articles, as well as for the articles of the listed featured speakers and entertainers -- those who had existing articles independent of Starwood as well as those whose articles were created specifically for Starwood. Mattisse(talk) 21:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I would certainly disagree with the notion that one must demonstrate a "strong connection to the Neo-Pagan movement" for an appearance at Starwood to be notable. Starwood is NOT just a Pagan festival, but a multi-cultural event that serves many communities and interest groups: World spirituality, world music & dance, Celtic culture, holistic healing, magical practices, fringe science, Mind science and Psychedelia/Entheogenic topics, grass-roots politics, gender issues, movement systems, conspiracy theory, science fiction & fantasy literature, performance art, and more. Many of the presenters and entertainers are there for reasons unrelated to Paganism.

Michael T. Gilbert, for instance, as a comic book writer & artist, joins Diana L. Paxson, David Jay Brown, Robert Anton Wilson, Christopher Moore, Robert Shea and others as a fantasy & science fiction speaker; some of these are Pagan, some have made no such claim. The same goes for Jazz artists like Airto Moreira, Muruga Booker, Stephen Kent, and Brian Auger, or political speakers like Paul Krassner, Stephen Gaskin, Martin A. Lee and Harvey Wasserman, or Entheogenic speakers like Terence McKenna, Ralph Metzner, Jonathan Ott, Jay Stevens or Stanley Krippner. In many cases their relationship with the Pagan community (or other communities) BEGAN with Starwood. And as it happens, the directors of the host organization, ACE, are Jewish.

I also have a problem with Matisse's use of the phrase "those whose articles were created specifically for Starwood". Only the Starwood Festival article itself deserves this label. All the others are notable by virtue of their own content. This constant attempt to criticize articles about notable individuals or citations placed to satisfy demands originally made by the same individuals that now call them linkspam should end. It seems to me to be based on their personal feelings about what they have concluded is my motivation, rather than whether the input itself is notable or proper. Starwood is notable by virtue of its 26-year history, its many notable speakers and entertainers, the many communities it serves and the contribution it has made, its references, its size, its popularity, and other factors. An appearance at the event is notable because Starwood is notable, and because it shows a desire on the part of the presenter to interface with these communities, and documents this fact (often the first instance). Any one of you can cite many appearances listed in articles about speakers that no one has asked for the demonstration of "a strong connection to the community" of those who attend the event. These citations merely establish that the appearance did, indeed, occur as claimed. If you believe that such citations are unecessary, please support that belief.

As for "3rd party source", I refer you to my previous statements. Since the rosencomet.com website (the official website of ACE) is neither run by the subject of the article nor by me, it IS a 3rd party source. The ACE & Starwood articles have additional references on them, so they don't rely on just this one. I do not believe that a simple citation of the schedule for the appearance requires anything more, and let me point out again that the same people who are saying that there are too many citations are saying this is not enough, and have criticized citations of multiple appearances (even though this might add notability, and Salix Alba criticized the Michael T. Gilbert citation because there was only one appearance). Asking for a newspaper verification is overkill, and more than is usually asked for in similar circumstances on other articles. I believe that these articles are being held to a higher, and often contradictory, standard. Why, I can only speculate. (A good example, and there are many, is the Dagmar Braun Celeste article. Its notability was established 2 years before I saw it, but the moment I ADDED more material to it, Matisse challenged its notability.) I'm sorry if I seem to be skirting "assumption of good faith", but some of the treatment I've been getting has been pretty harsh, and I have not touched a single article created by any of the folks that are making accusations about my motives. Rosencomet 21:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

1. I believe that the rosencomet website is not a third party source because it promotes the things that it reports on.

By that definition, a newspaper or magazine is not a third party source if it contains an ad for something it reports on. Therefor, the New York Times can't be a source for a report on the election results or anything about the Republican party if it has ads for Republican candidates in it, or financial news about GM or Ford if it has ads for cars built by those companies. This is just another made-up requirement by someone determined to find any rationale to disallow this information.

Rosencomet.com is controlled by the ACE which runs the Starwood Festival. It is undeniable that the Republican Party, GM or Ford may have influence on the New York Times. However, at least nominally, the New York Times is not controlled by any of these organizations. Rosencomet.com is not even nominally independent.

1. Repetition for 26 years is not in itself evidence of notability. Please consider family reunions that may have occurred on an annual basis for that long, or even longer. Surely most family reunions are not notable. It pains me that you have not provided sources unconnected with the event. Otherwise it seems to me that person X's appearance at starwood is really only notable to those who attend starwood. In Boston, even very minor musicians get writeups in the local papers. --BostonMA 22:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a big difference between a musical appearance in a big city and one at an event like this. (And by the way, I've booked many an act, and those "write-ups" are often paid for by the musicians or his/her agent in money or favors.) There are rarely reporters travelling to campgrounds to cover educational and spiritual festivals in the country, but that doesn't make them non-notable. An appearance at Esalen, Interface, or the New York Open Center is an important credit for a New Age speaker, but it doesn't get covered in the news. Again, notable and newsworthy are two different things. If the subject of an article has a PhD, it is notable, and a link to the university (or one at which he/she teaches) is common practice, but it is unlikely that the newspapers will cover it.

I will repeat that appearance in the news is not the only form of evidence of notability. However, we need some evidence other than your assertion, or the assertion of a website which is controlled by the promoters of the festival.

The Starwood festival itself may well be notable. However, that does not mean that every appearence of every artist at the Starwood Festival is notable. Think of a craft fair that may be held on an annual basis for the last 26 years. Having a stall at a craft fair is not necessarily a notable event, even if the craftsperson is notable, and even if the fair is notable.

One must also understand that some factors lend notability primarily in the interest group of the subject, and I'm not just talking about Starwood attendees. I mean interest groups that may include millions of people. A prestigeous reward to a scientist or a musician might, say, only be covered in the literature of the organization who awards it, and appear in the biography of the subject, but not make the papers. And not just awards, but important work: when an artist like Merl Saunders does the sound design for the Grammy Awards a few years running it is a notable credit in his bio, but the info would only be likely to appear in the Grammy Awards literature (which, by your definition, is not a 3rd party source) and his own bio. Media references to back up a simple citation is simply not a reasonable universal requirement.

Awards by organizations to individuals are often not notable.

And I think you are being a bit absurd when you don't see that a 26-year history of an event, as part of a list of other factors, lends notability to that event. It is rare, indeed. To compare it to a family reunion is ridiculous; however, if you find a 6-day, 1500-person family reunion that you want to call notable, I won't object - especially if the family includes a hundred authors, lecturers and entertainers who are notable in their own right. Go ahead, post the article, and see if anyone objects. Rosencomet 15:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

My claim is that a 26 year history does not imply notability. You are now mentioning new factors, such as the length of time (6 days) and number of attendees (1500). Obviously most family reunions are shorter and smaller. The information you now supply is closer to a craft fair. Again, not every appearence of every artisan at a craft fair is notable, even if the artisan and the fair are in themselves notable. --BostonMA 15:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Misplaced Pages is based on consensus.

User:Hanuman Das has been blocked for 48 hours for a personal attack against User:Mattisse. --Salix alba (talk) 09:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Mattisse has now been filed against User:Mattisse. --Salix alba (talk) 08:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)