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Cristina neagu

Springee, Trekphiler and RAF910

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Springee

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Trekphiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

RAF910 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Note: This pattern of POV-pushing involves three editors. I hope that submitting them together is not problematic. These diffs and quotes are merely examples; the entire discussion should be read for context.

1. 30 November 2018 Springee posts at WikiProject Firearms expressing concern that the "Criminal use" list at Glock is "out of control". RAF910 and Trekphiler chime in with POV-pushing comments: "...there are too many anti-gun editors who are pushing a political agenda, and doing everything in their power to gang-up on and ban pro-gun editors. So, despite our best efforts, I'm afraid there is very little we do about it at this time. Just "VOTE and HOPE" that enough editors realize where this is going and are willing to do something to stop it." "If it didn't lead to a change in the law, what impact did it have on Glock? Show that., & maybe it merits inclusion". These complaints are not a substantial consensus-building discussion and none of the arguments are based in policy, however it is cited later as prior consensus. My suggestion to discuss at Talk:Glock was ignored.
2. 30 November 2018 Trekphiler blanks the entire Criminal Use section with the summary "which of these led to changes in law enough to impact Glock sales? none." This is not consistent with any current guideline and seems to be based on a deprecated WP:FIREARMS criminal use recommendation.
3. 30 November 2018 After I reinstated the section, Trekphiler removes it again with a personal attack in the edit summary: "don't need to show impact? it smells like gun-confiscator propaganda otherwise
4. 11 February 2019 Springee opens a discussion: "The list of crimes was deleted last November. A discussion with respect to the list was had here ]. Involved editors were myself, Dlthewave, RAF910 and Trekphiler. The concern and consensus was this had become an indiscriminate list of crimes with no indication that those crimes were associated with Glock in general. It is not clear that external RSs about the Glock company commonly include long lists of crimes. This isn't to say that a crime section can't be supported via RSs but we should base our inclusion and the associations of any particular crime with external sources about Glock that make that association." This raises several concerns: By linking the editors, Springee is effectively canvassing a group of editors who expressed support for his position; the previous, unsubstantial discussion is now referred to as "consensus"; and Springee is setting a high bar for inclusion, requiring that all sources in the criminal use section be about Glock specifically, an expectation which is not applied to any other section of the article. When challenged, Springee seems to apply a double standard to justify removing criminal use content while retaining information about police and military users: "The list is out of control because it is long, has no content other than "Crime X included a Glock" and is indiscriminate because no justification for inclusion was offered or suggested." (even though the Users section consists almost entirely of "Agency X uses Glocks" entries); " it is common in firearms articles to discuss police and military users" (while requiring that criminal use section be justified for inclusion in this specific article.)
5. 12 February 2019 Trekphiler makes an uncivil accusation: ”This list is nothing but an effort to dirty Glock firearms, & by extension, all firearms. I don't see a "criminal use" section for the 1934 Ford or the Chevrolet Impala. Why not? Because there's a hate-on for guns. “
6. 17 February 2019 After reliable sources including the Washington Post are provided to support the Criminal Use section, Springee makes dubious claims that they are ”basicallly content free” and insists that more sources be found. This is accompanied by unproductive, rambling walls of text about everything from police departments using Glocks to something about F-150s.
7. 17 February 2019 RAF910 canvasses Drmies, an editor who previously supported removal, and misleadingly assesses consensus by counting votes.
8. 17 February 2019 RAF910 makes a false accusation of forum shopping (I did not start any of the discussions) and assesses prior consensus by counting votes.

Taken together in the context of the overall discussion, these comments represent a pattern of obstruction to the consensus-building process by refusing to work toward a compromise, refusing to accept that consensus may change and setting ever-higher bars for inclusion of criminal use content. The initial discussion on the Wikiproject Firearms page and selective notification of editors raise canvassing concerns as well.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Springee alerted
• Trekphiler alerted
• RAF910 alerted

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• It should be self-evident that I did not come here to resolve the content dispute. I came here to address problematic behavior surrounding the dispute which has been impeding the consensus-building process. I find it particularly odd that Cullen328's statement consists entirely of their opinion on the dispute and implies that these editors being "right" somehow nullifies the civility issue. The comments presented here, by myself and others, would be unacceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages and certainly should not be tolerated in a Discretionary Sanctions topic area.

RAF910 has pointed out some of my writing on the topic and I too would encourage folks to read User:Dlthewave/Signpost_Opinion_Firearms. It is understandable that this may be viewed as polemical, however I feel that it is important to highlight the long-term pattern and I've been careful not to name individual editors. I view this episode as a continuation of the pattern described there. My goal is not to add criminal use to every firearm article or block everyone who disagrees with me. I just want to discuss it in a civil, open manner without being accused of bias. I find it interesting that Wikiproject Firearms members have repeatedly stated that criminal use is outside the scope of the project (most recently in November 2018) yet the project pages are still being used to provide recommendations on criminal use content and begrudgingly notify fellow editors of "out of control" lists. The lack of interest in developing best practices for criminal use content is one reason that I started the Gun Politics Task Force, an idea first proposed in 2015 by project members who did not want to get involved with political topics. It seems that their idea of "not getting involved" has evolved to mean excluding this content from articles within the scope of the project. The fact that RAF10 has made only two brief comments actually highlights part of the problem: They have made no attempt to actually discuss the content in question. –dlthewave ☎ 15:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• GoldenRing I attempted to explain the purpose of my Signpost opinion submission above and Whitewashing of firearms articles was an essential supplement to that piece. I feel that it is important for editors to be aware of the long-standing pattern that has been taking place, including in cases like this where the issue is a continuation of something that has been going on for over a decade. I was careful not to include usernames. Is this a sufficient explanation or should we continue this in an appeal discussion? –dlthewave ☎ 14:37, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Springee
• Trekphiler
• RAF910

Discussion concerning Springee, Trekphiler and RAF910

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Springee

I don't understand why we are even here. This is a content dispute. The claim of improper notification Dlthewave made was wrong as APPNOTE specifically says notifying previously involved editors is not canvasing. However, when a few months after participating in said discussion Dlthewave reverts a consensus edit that is a problem. Rather than disputing the consensus Dlthewave ignored it. Since Dlthewave is concerned about improper notification I would point out that the project the editor started has a goal to add content such as mass shootings into firearms article when possible ]. The ~10 project editors have been nearly unanimous in their opinions on such material. Why wouldn't any notice to such a sympathetic project be automatically seen as improper notification? Dlthewave isn't a "bad guy" or anything and, even though I think this ARE is way off base, I think in general they are acting in good faith. However, this is a very inappropriate use of ARE to try to address a content dispute. Finally, I would suggest that Dlthewave's own POV is very strong in this area. Consider that in their Signpost submission, towards the end of their article, they implied that editors such as myself were keeping criminal content out of an article against a general RfC discussion ("To date, the article does not make any mention of criminal use") but neglected to mention to readers that this was due to a new, local RfC that said consensus to not include. If there is PUSH I would say it is in both directions but also, even in Dlthewave's case, all within Wiki policies and guidelines. Springee (talk) 11:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Legacypac's comments

LP's history of INCIVILITY towards me should be kept in mind when reading this. The editor was blocked (later lifted with a warning) for their attacks against me. Block log ], related talk page discussions ], ]. Unsubstantiated accusations of COI are certainly not assuming good faith when I have already stated I have no COI in this area. Never have, unlikely I ever will. Also, I'm not an NRA member, never have been. Springee (talk) 11:58, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@Legacypac:, do not come to my talk page to accuse me of lying here. ] If you feel something I said here was a lie then show your cards. I am tired of your accusations. Springee (talk) 04:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Your follow up comment does not show where I "lied". Here is the block warning ] in question. Springee (talk) 04:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Additional follow up comments

MastCell (talk · contribs), I'm not clear if you are suggesting I've engaged in battle ground behavior. I wouldn't think so. I've tried to engage editors like Dlthewave and K.e.coffman on their talk pages specifically to avoid civility issues. As K.e.coffman said, I have been civil. I do suspect I'm long winded and willing to post my concerns. I can see how that can be seen as stonewalling. You suggested I moved a goal post with respect to the Glock crime inclusion. I don't believe I have. I suggested that the sort of articles that could establish WEIGHT would be articles "about Glock" that talk about mass shootings. Never did I claim that simply finding any example should be sufficient. To K.e.coffman's credit they found two articles along those lines. Not to dive too deeply into the content dispute but the articles are of limited quality and don't draw any causal links. Basically I don't think they provide encyclopedic content. I said as much. I did not remove the new material from the article. I don't see how a civil disagreement on the talk page is stonewalling nor do I see how this isn't part of the process.

(new edit) @MastCell:, I don't think I have ever claimed this is a gun control issue nor accused others of promoting gun control. I have supported inclusion of criminal material in firearms articles (Mini-14, AR-15 style rifle). I can also point to examples where I was part of the consensus that opposed it (S&W M&P15, M1911). In the case of Glock, yes, I felt the WP and VICE articles don't do a good job of establishing weight for inclusion. However, after a sock added a new source I have stated I favor inclusion (but not as currently written).] I think it's unfair to classify my objections based on weight as some sort of anti-gun control mindset in my edits. Springee (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

K.e.coffman (talk · contribs), I appreciate that you acknowledge the civility. I don't agree with much of what you have said here but I also view you as civil. So first, how do you think my question at WP:Firearms ] would be canvasing? I made no edits to the article but I did raise a question. I suppose you could argue that the sort of editors who watch that talk page are likely to be sympathetic. However, wouldn't that same concern apply to anything posted to WP:Gun Politics, the project Dlthewave started? The few participants listed have been strident in trying to add crime material to many firearms pages. Look at the list of Collaborations and Related discussions. Every case is a discussion regarding the inclusion of crime content in a gun article. How is that different?

Anyway, based on the WP:Guns discussion the long list of crimes was removed from the article. Even now it appears that editors agree that the long, indiscriminate list should not be in the article. Pinging the involved editors when the topic came up again in February was APPNOTE (see Mr rnddude's statement below).

Yes, I did feel the proposal you highlighted at the S&W M&P15 page was forum shopping because less than two years earlier we had a RfC with significant participation looking at the exact same content.]. I think my view that nothing had changed was vindicated by the result of the recent RfC that reached the same conclusion as the previous one. How should editors feel when people simply ignore previous RfCs?

You said that based on previous AEs I should know about problematic behaviors. I agree. This is one of the reasons why I work very hard to remain civil, even in the face of attacks such as those LP has leveled against me here thus I'm not sure why you would highlight "Personalizing disputes" or "canvasing" given, as others have noted, we are dealing with APPNOTE. I do have a long term concern that is shared with other editors who have worked in the area of firearms. It does seem that some editors really push on the crime aspects by trying to put lists of crimes into every article. I have weight concerns with that which I've expressed with others and even asked Dlthewave to help with ]. What I've seen is many of those editors got frustrated and found that either they did take things too far and violated CIVIL or they gave up and left that article space. So while I think it is incivil to suggest an objective to chase away editors who don't agree with a POV, I can understand why others feel that way.

Additional edit: @K.e.coffman:, I'm sorry that your reply was to back away from an acknowledgement of civil but didn't include answers to any of my questions/concerns Springee (talk) 02:50, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

But I do have a solution: I think one of the best things we could do for this problem, ie should crimes be added to many of these articles, is to visit the question of WEIGHT. I've discussed this a number of times and will throw it out here just in case. Does weight have reciprocity? That is, if A is significant to B, does that mean B is significant to A? In the case of some gun crimes people have argued, "the crime was significant and articles about the crime mention the gun thus the gun article must mention the crime". Other times we have decided that even if the crime was significant and a tool of the crime was significant, that doesn't mean the crime appears on the tool's article. For example, after a RfC it was clearly decided that it was UNDUE to include the DC sniper attacks in the Chevrolet Caprice article. Perhaps if we could answer this question we would cut down the back and forth.

Statement by Cullen328

I am neither pro-gun nor anti-gun and feel that I am neutral because I have been criticized roughly equally by people on both sides of that debate. But if someone added content to an article about a kitchen knife manufacturer reporting that some criminal stabbed someone with a knife made by that company, I would object. Undue weight. It would be inappropriate, in my view, if someone added content to an article about a company that rents trucks stating that company inadvertently rented a truck to someone who carried out a truck bombing. It would be inappropriate to add content to articles about Home Depot or Lowe's or any other home improvement company reporting that somebody bought supplies there that were used to build a terrorist bomb. All bets are off, of course, if such a company was proved negligent in a court of law. Last time I checked, sales and ownership of firearms remains legal in the United States for the vast majority of adult citizens. And the overwhelming majority of legally owned firearms have never been used in a crime or any act of violence. Personally, I favor universal background checks and other reasonable restrictions on gun ownership so the so-called "pro-gun" editors might be wary of me. But really. If reliable sources report that celebrity X died of alcoholism, and their favorite beverage was Cutty Sark should we add that to Cutty Sark (whisky)? I do not think so. Undue weight and soapboxing. This should be declined. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:36, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by RAF910

Please read User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, User:Dlthewave/Signpost Opinion Firearms and Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions "Opinion: Firearms". Where Dlthewave portrayed himself as the epic hero fighting the forces of darkness. Basically, this is in direct violation of Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. Also, see User talk:Felsic2/Gun use "Requested move 19 May 2018" where on 4 June 2018 there was a consensus NOT to move this page to Misplaced Pages:GUNUSE or Misplaced Pages:GUNCRIME. However, 18 January 2019‎, Dlthewave ignored said consensus and created (backdoor) redirects to said page anyway. This is also clearly a violation of Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. Also, he is constantly accusing his fellow editors of acting in bad faith and violating Wiki policies. And, as you can see he is adept at Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering. Dlthewave's edit history speaks for itself. I believe it's his ultimate goal to get as many "pro-gun' editors as possible blocked or topic-banned, so they cannot interfere with his crusade.--RAF910 (talk) 06:50, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Springee, Thank you for reminding me. On 11 April 2018,‎ Dlthewave started the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Politics/Gun politics page with the expressed purpose of adding "criminal use" sections to firearm articles. Again, showing that he is a self declared Political Advocate. --RAF910 (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

MastCell, is wrong. I have made no effort to "to move the goalposts" or " responded with a litany of excuses that seem fundamentally like stonewalling." If you read the Talk:Glock page, the only editor moving the goal post is Dlthewave. I have only made two edits to this page, and only one edit in this regard..."OPPOSE the addition of a criminal use section in any form, for reason already stated.--RAF910 (talk) 00:07, 12 February 2019 (UTC)". The other edit was..."Starting a new discussion on the same issue, is just another attempt at forum shopping. The above discussion is 2 for and 4 against inclusion of a criminal use section.--RAF910 (talk) 19:31, 17 February 2019 (UTC)" after Dlthewave restored the "Criminal use" section against the aforementioned 2 to 4 consensus.....Also, how anyone could say that I'm trying to shut down the discussion at the Talk:Glock page with these two edits is patently ridiculous. The only editor trying to shut down discussions here is Dlthewave who is constantly accusing his fellow editors of acting in bad faith and violating Wiki policies. see User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, User:Dlthewave/Signpost Opinion Firearms and Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions --RAF910 (talk) 21:06, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Dlthewave latest comment confirms that he knows that I have not engaged in any disruptive behavior. He's just upset that I have only made "two brief comments" and that I'm not willing to get involved in long drawn out discussions. He also acknowledges that it's understandable that his edits may be viewed as polemical, but he feels it is important to highlight what he believe to be long-term patterns. I don't know, or care why Dlthewave is here...I want no part of it.--RAF910 (talk) 19:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Mr rnddude

Springee opens a discussion ... This raises several concerns: By linking the editors, Springee is effectively canvassing a group of editors who expressed support for his position. Really? Involved editors were myself, Dlthewave, RAF910 and Trekphiler. <- The OP is the second name on the list of those notified, and only four people commented here. So everyone that was there was notified. So there's a falsehood.

Sigh. I couldn't read past there, although I see Drmies is also named. Fascinating that a pro-gun editor should canvass a gun-control advocate. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:16, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing - this? it was closed as decide on a case-by-case basis if I recall correctly. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:02, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Legacypac

I follow the NRA article where Springee can be counted on to push a "nothing negative about the NRA or guns" agenda. He denies any COI but from what I've seen the NRA should be sending him thank-you cards and maybe an honorarium for his dedicated efforts. Such volunteer dedication is truly rare. I'm not familiar with the other editors named here. Legacypac (talk) 09:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Springee decided to dig up how they managed to turn a comment about their whitewashing of the NRA article into a short, inappropriate and quickly lifted block against me. . I'd forgotten they did that. Just shows how relentless their POV pushing and wikilawyering is against anyone that tries to hold a NPOV line. Legacypac (talk) 04:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Trekphiler

Personal attack? Seriously? At what point did I even mention my alleged target's username? (Hell, I don't even know it. Or care.) POV-pushing? That has to be the thinnest excuse for a POV push I've ever seen. I do believe the Glock page's "criminal use" section should be remvoed, because all it does is catalog crimes with no particular cultural or historical significance & no impact on any laws, nor on Glock's policies or sales. As such, IMO, including it is POV against firearms. My views on the subject are strongly held, & may be strongly stated. I will offer no apologies for that. So, I would suggest this is an effort to silence criticism or an opposing point of view rather than persuade or achieve consensus. (That "consensus" may amount to nothing beyond a narrow majority vote is a policy matter better dealt with elsewhere.) Since I expect to be held to a different standard from anybody else, as always, I will expect a topic ban, if not an outright indefinite site ban, any second now. So be it. Good riddance. TREKphiler 18:20, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I've participated in these debates and I would like to highlight a long-term pattern of uncollegial behaviour, the voicing of conspiracy theories, and general failure to assume good faith on article Talk pages & via edit summaries. For example, Trekpiler persists with his theme of a " confiscator lobby" which the editors who do not agree with him apparently belong to:

WP:GUNS Talk page, February 2018: permalink

• Every time there's a mass shooting, the gun confiscators come out & blame the weapon for the crime.
• And there are evidently some confiscators involved, too, or we wouldn't have somebody trying to put the event on the S&W page in the first place

Smith & Wesson Talk page permalink

• March 2018: Naah... The confiscators will still rather take guns away from law-abiding people.
• April 2018: As for the proposition the page is written as a promo or fansite page, that is simply preposterous, and smells of another effort by the confiscator lobby.

Glock, Nov 2018, via edit summary:

• don't need to show impact? it smells like gun-confiscator propaganda otherwise

RAF910 expresses similar sentiments, with accusations of "crusades", "missions", etc.

• Colt AR-15 Talk page, April 2018: Now we have editors who have decided that it is their mission to add criminal use section to every firearms article that they can get away with. And, even if they lose today, they will be back tomorrow with another rfc, and then another and another until they win.
• Compare with RAF910's comment in this report: "I believe it's his ultimate goal to get as many "pro-gun' editors as possible blocked or topic-banned, so they cannot interfere with his crusade."

Springee is at least civil, but he misunderstands canvassing. This was a clear case at WP:GUNS: Crime list at Glock. He then uses that discussion to claim prior consensus on the Glock Talk page, as detailed in OP's report. Springee (along with RAF910) has also accused others of forum shopping on article Talk pages. See for example, Smith & Wesson M&P15 Talk page, October 2018 , four instances of "forum shopping" from Springee and one from RAF910. I discussed with Springee here.

Springee participated in prior AE requests in the topic area, so he should have known about the problematic behaviours highlighted there, such as "personalizing disputes" (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive233#Thewolfchild), and "Canvassing amongst project members or by using project pages will be heavily frowned upon" (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive228#Thewolfchild). --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• I should qualify my statement about civility as being too generous. Using article Talk pages to accuse others of "forum shopping" is not civil. It's WP:ASPERSIONS. If one has an issue with another editor's behaviour, then article Talk pages are not an appropriate venue. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Drmies: re: double standard on sourcing, I do believe that Springee fundamentally misunderstands NPOV and does have a double standard. For example, he argued on the NRA talk page:

• "If the source doesn't provide the full response then we certainly can. (...) Yes, it's even better if the NRA has a statement that is a direct response to our news article...." & "I think in most cases we can find articles that say the NRA disagreed but often they don't provide the full statement. If that statement is available we should provide it."

Source: NRA Talk page (a protracted discussion). I was reminded of this 2018 thread because of Springee arguing, a year later, that The Truth About Guns is a suitable sources in the article on The Truth About Guns: WP:ABOUTSELF and qualifications. I don't think that any lessons have been learned. ----K.e.coffman (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies

Hey, I'm at ARE again--it's getting to be exciting. I should run for ArbCom so I can be on these pages all the time. Cullen328, I see your kitchen knives (and earlier in the article history I felt the same way as you do) and raise you a couple of articles which, apparently, clearly link a particular gun/gun brand with a set of crimes/mass murders. Had it not been for those articles it would be an easy matter of "remove, undue". But that's all I have to say on content.

On the actual matter, well, some of the pro-gun editors have a tendency to be somewhat inflexible, and play it too personal: Trekphiler's comment, cited above, on the "effort to dirty Glock" is an example thereof; I believe this is the kind of thing that led us to the Arb case on gun control in the first place. Another thing that was so important in that case was the...let's charitably call it "quibbling" over what are reliable sources; we see some of that here. And the more you look at that comment, the more reason there is to think that they are simply too hotly involved, throwing shade on good-faith editors. Now, RAF's note on my talk page--yeah I supported removing that section earlier, and it's true that I'm a Nerfgun-toting admin, so I suppose a kind of selective canvassing is possible, but for such a judgment one would need some more evidence than just this one. Finally I'll break a lance for Springee, an editor with whom I frequently disagree (because foolishly they disagree with me), but I believe them to be working out of good faith and with a strong enough knowledge of what we're doing here. Drmies (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• I just noticed the comment by RAF cited below by MastCell: oh dear. RAF, that is totally uncool, and the time may come that you will regret having made that comment. Personally, I hope you regret it already, and will retract. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
• One more thing, after Springee dropped me a note. The complaint mentions a double standard applied to sources, and Springee seems to see that point at least for this article. I think this thread is probably enough to ensure that they will take care not to argue that way again, and I do not see the need for any sanctions against them. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Pudeo

Why are these editors being bundled like this? The general behauvior of RAF910 and Springee for instance is very clearly different. Are you expecting some kind of a collective sanction?

The content issue needs to be settled for once and for all somehow. It is ridiculous to keep fighting over the criminal use section in different articles. (My opinion is that criminal use should be mentioned when there is a lot of coverage commenting exactly that, like with bump-stocks and AR-15 style rifles, but random lists of crimes in most articles is completely useless WP:TRIVIA.) In the case of Glock, the list of crimes is undue, and Dlthewave's viewpoint was in the minority and perhaps that is why he is resorting to this board.

Dlthewave's first point about canvassing the Firearms project is rather absurd when you consider that he himself has started an alternative task force called Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Politics/Gun politics. If you go look at the project's talk page, you will find Dlthewave informing the project about the criminal use RfCs and discussions. How is this any different?

I also think that the userpages (User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles and User:Dlthewave/Hall of Fame) are a violation of WP:POLEMIC and illustrate an uncollaborative attitude, certainly more than anything Springee has done, in any case.

MastCell's comment about the three editors having a "deep-seated partisanship" (and apparently Dlthewave not?) is strikingly biased, and given MastCell's history at AE requests that relate to gun politics and general politics, I have raised the issue directly on his talk page. --Pudeo (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Truthbill

If there were was so much concern with NPOV they would not object to experts on criminal use such as highly respected criminologist Dr. Blair and Dr. Fox and there studies. But they have because they and there studies contradict there sources of uniformed journalist sensationalism(shown to be belatedly false). And this is what all this boils down to. They wish to have there views presented and when a majority object to this they slowly pester and pester other editors until they then can go run and tell in there attempt to manipulate the system. Editor Dlthewave has even petitioned to remove the two policies that allow a editor to ask others to not post on there talk page.

For any admin to not acknowledge these tactics or there stated intentions for what they clearly are, and then try to condemn editors who get flustered and make some minor infraction that is used to then try and remove this opposition presents the appearance of impropriety, no matter how they choose to frame it.Truthbill (talk) 01:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Result concerning Springee, Trekphiler and RAF910

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I am still looking at the dispute. But in the meantime, I would like User:Dlthewave please to explain how User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles is not one big violation of WP:POLEMIC that ought to be deleted. GoldenRing (talk) 07:55, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• Also, want there a big RfC on "criminal use" sections of gun articles recently? Possibly specific to the AR-15. Can someone remind me where it was? GoldenRing (talk) 07:57, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
• @Mr rnddude: The very one, thank you. GoldenRing (talk) 08:54, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
• On the dispute itself, I'd value insights from other admins, but initially I'm not seeing any need for enforcement action here. The community have decided that inclusion of such material is to be decided on a case-by-case basis and so there is nothing wrong with the existence of the discussion per se. And at this stage I'm not seeing such tendentious behaviour in that discussion that enforcement is warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 09:10, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
• Since I have received no answer from Dlthewave, I have deleted User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles as an arbitration enforcement action for being a violation of POLEMIC.
• @MastCell: I certainly have no objection to the warning you suggest. GoldenRing (talk) 12:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Dlthewave: I'm sorry, that doesn't change my mind. Linking to a big list of diffs / discussions and then protesting that you didn't actually write anyone else's username doesn't make this not a POLEMIC violation. "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws" is prohibited. GoldenRing (talk)

• As a matter of first impression, this looks primarily like a content dispute to me, and we don't resolve these via AE. I advise all editors to keep calm and avoid ad hominems, but the conduct reported here doesn't rise to the level of requiring sanctions, in my view. Sandstein 09:44, 18 February 2019 (UTC) (Disclaimer: I vaguely remember once taking part in an RfC or other discussion about this kind of topic, but I don't remember what my point of view then was, or whether I participated as editor or closing admin. Sandstein 16:24, 18 February 2019 (UTC))
• The current consensus is that criminal use of firearms may be covered in articles about those firearms on a case-by-case basis, so it's correct to call the underlying question a content dispute. However, there appear to me to be significant user-conduct issues in how that content dispute is being approached, and those issues are appropriate for discussion, and possible action, here. Specifically:
  • Dlthewave does present pretty compelling evidence of a battleground mentality on the part of RAF910 ("there are too many anti-gun editors who are pushing a political agenda, and doing everything in their power to gang-up on and ban pro-gun editors. So, despite our best efforts, I'm afraid their is very little we do about it at this time") and Trekphiler (who removed a reasonable edit with an edit summary reading "...smells like gun-confiscator propaganda...", and dismissed apparent good-faith discussion thus: "... nothing but an effort to dirty Glock firearms, & by extension, all firearms. I don't see a "criminal use" section for the 1934 Ford or the Chevrolet Impala. Why not? Because there's a hate-on for guns").
  • In this discussion, Springee and RAF910 seem to move the goalposts. They previously, and properly, insisted on evidence of coverage by independent reliable sources to justify coverage of criminal use. However, when presented with such sources, they responded with a litany of excuses that seem fundamentally like stonewalling.
• I don't think that all of Dlthewave's concerns are substantiated, but a significant subset seem to be based on valid behavioral issues. The RfC made it clear that discussions of coverage of criminal use are legitimate and need to be undertaken in good faith on a case-by-case basis, but the presented diffs show Springee, Trekphiler, and RAF910 trying to shut down such discussions as categorically inappropriate (in violation of the RfC), and attacking Dlthewave in terms that betray their own deep-seated partisanship, when Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion.

  If I'm the only one who sees behavioral (rather than just content) issues here, then I won't push the matter, but I do think there is enough evidence here to justify at least a warning to Springee, RAF910, and Trekphiler to respect our processes and to tone down the battleground mentality. If there are previous warnings/sanctions, then a topic ban might be warranted. MastCell  19:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for highlighting the most problematic aspects. I agree with this analysis. Sandstein 23:03, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• This really isn't an AE issue, it's more of an ANI issue. While the Arb ruling on gun control is "broadly construed", I think this is about guns, not control. That doesn't stop any admin from taking an ordinary admin action (based in part on the consensus of the aforementioned RFC), but I don't see how discretionary sanctions could be used here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:14, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • It's a gun-control issue because these editors insist on making it one. The evidence shows repetitive accusations that various editors are part of a "confiscator lobby", and that the content disputes in question are motivated by the desire to control and confiscate privately owned firearms. I don't see how one can read the evidence and conclude that this request is unrelated to gun control. MastCell  20:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
• I agree with MastCell. It does also appear that Trekphiler's interactions with other editors are more aggressive than the other two. I too would suggest a final warning on such behaviour with further issues leading to a topic ban. Black Kite (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, BlackKite/MastCell, but let's not forget it needs to be a logged final warning. Bishonen | talk 21:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC).

Sir Joseph

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Atsme

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Indef topic ban from AP2 broadly construed imposed at the beginning of this ARCA request in June 2018, and the first appeal in August 2018 that I withdrew in 24 hrs.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Diff

Statement by Atsme

I’m here to appeal my June 2018 AP2 indef T-ban that was imposed on me by Bishonen at ARCA independently of the case that was filed, noting that I filed a 1st appeal in Aug 2018 and withdrew it within approx 24 hrs with an ArbCom restriction of 6 mos before I could appeal again. The 6 mos. restriction has expired.  

Over the past few months, I throttled down my editing to focus on family and RL demands, but also managed to devote some private time to reflect on my contributions in the AP2 topic area. I will say that it isn't easy to see oneself objectively but I did try and feel that I’ve succeeded as a result of the time I spent with family and friends who mercilessly indulged me in conversations regarding one of the least favorite topics people want to discuss over the holidays...that being the topic area of this appeal. It was the best thing that could’ve happened as it taught me how to better manage the emotional triggers that topic alone has a tendency to create. It certainly led me to a better understanding of the highly contentious AP2 topic area. More importantly, I’ve learned that the best way to avoid drama in political discussions is to simply stop contributing and walk away.

In retrospect, I regret the occasions I strayed from my customary collegial behavior during RfCs and consensus required discussions in the AP2 topic area. I don’t have such issues when editing in other topic areas so I used the latter to gage my behavior in AP2. I now see the biggest problem was my overzealousness to win the debates and gain consensus, showing little consideration to opposing views. The times my position did gain consensus were overshadowed by the inappropriateness of my persistence, and for that I apologize with a promise that it will never happen again. I made a New Year's resolution that if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays WP:WORLDSEND, WP:DGAF, and WP:LETITGO and have taken them to heart.

In closing, I will add that I never before realized how intertwined politics is in our everyday lives, or that such a broad t-ban would be so restrictive to my normal editing activities, particularly when working at AfC and NPP. I also became overly cautious and chose to deny requests for copy editing and lead improvement if I saw even a hint of a potential political undertow in the articles. I did not under any circumstances want to inadvertently violate my t-ban. It has been a heavy burden to carry, and I do hope the decision here will weigh in my favor so I can return to my normal editing activity. 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• Floq - allegations of specific misconduct without diffs are difficult to address but I understand that going back to find evidence is tedious work, and as an admin you already have a lot on your plate. My appeal is somewhat broad in scope as I believe the crux of my behavior is what led to other behaviors. If it will help, I once copied all the diffs presented against me by MrX and addressed them at User talk:Atsme/RVW back in August in preparation of my 1st appeal. Please select the specific diffs you feel are not covered in my current appeal and I will be happy to address them individually. With regards to your questions about Bishonen, I believe the word I used was bias not hate, and if I did use hate, I apologize, it was totally out of character. With all due respect, I don't think it is appropriate for me to respond directly to that part of your question because I feel it is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. However, if it will help put your mind at ease, I will say that I hold no animosity toward anyone, regardless of the situation. In fact, I have defended two other editors at AE and/or ANI, SPECIFICO and BullRangifer, who have consistently been opponents in the AP2 topic area. We have maintained a collegial association as editors despite our disagreements. I have kept two diffs from other editors because their comments were unsolicited and I treasure them to this day. Hopefully they will serve to support my position as they are relevent to behavior: 10-26-2018 by an admin, and 03-14-2016 by a user I once filed against at AN/I and now hold in high regard. Sidenote: I am nopinging to avoid the appearance of canvassing. 16:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Floq - this appeal is about my promise to not partake in TE, broadly construed. This is not about Bishonen - she was simply the enforcing admin. If you have an issue with anything I've said related to her, please take it to AN. It does not belong here. This venue is AE regarding editing behavior where DS have been imposed. Thank you. 23:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• AWilley - please read my response to Floq. Provide the diffs that have raised your concern, otherwise I cannot provide an appropriate answer without knowing exactly to what you are referring. I need specifics, please. The allegations against me are compiled in the link I provided to Floq above - you can pick the ones you feel I need to address. Without diffs to support a specific allegation, we are treading awfully close to aspersions. The diffs used as evidence against me in my June t-ban are there for the choosing, and my explanations are there as well. I don't recall ever being the editor you described below. While my editing was tendentious, I have never been one to spew nonsense, and will never be that person, unless is indicated. I will admit that on a few occasions my humor was sarcastic but we all indulged from time to time. Since my t-ban was imposed, the following discussions have emerged: here and here, so it isn't an issue that is unique to my concerns. Read Masem's statement again as it describes the primary issue well. As for the comments about AP2 becoming a quieter topic area, doesn't that customarily hold true when most of the opposition is eliminated and the bulk of the editing is done by like-minded individuals? Have you considered that since your attempt to impose Special DS on SPECIFICO, he/she has not edited in that topic area since? Others have been on and off. Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement. Was it really necessary for you to make such a claim without providing factual information with the numbers to support it? 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

It was very disheartening to read your response. In your 1st diff, the source is not black listed and can be used with caution, but I took it one step further by adding NYTimes as a source for verification per the diff you provided. Did you not read the diff? There was no error on my part. The 2nd & 3rd diffs you included below - Breitbart which was cherrypicked from an WP:RSN discussion, not from an AP2 article rather it was about something Ben Shapiro had said. The #2 diff was also at RSN. If you had read my comment you would have seen "Editors have to exercise a bit more caution than before when it comes to verifying any publication that's considered a "news source". Bait-click headlines and fallacious content are rampant, and none of them are immune." The Daily Wire and Red State diffs you included were in a question I asked on the Sean Hannity TP regarding edits by an IP - "Can we use Daily Wire which explains the crux of what IP207 is saying?", so again, my references to those sources were taken out of context. Nothing I've said in my appeal has been disengenuous. What you provided as evidence to discredit me regarding sources substantiated nothing that belongs in this appeal, and none of it can be related to disruptive editing which further explains why I did not include it. You have your opinion, AWilley, and there is nothing I can do to change that if you're not going to actually read the diffs in context, but as an admin, you are obligated to at least present the facts correctly. I cannot fix problems that don't exist and if I'm to be blamed for doing things I didn't do, you shouldn't be disappointed if I refuse to apologize for it. I identified the problem that existed regarding my t-ban and Masem's statement helped to validate it. It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way as what Floq just demonstrated - damned if I do - damned if I don't. At least I've corrected the misinformation and properly stated facts, so if I'm to be punished for that, then so be it. I've done the best I can do. 01:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• regentspark - I feel that your question relating to Bishonen is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. Why are you even bringing it up? This is now beginning to appear to be punitive considering this is my first t-ban ever, since I've been an editor, and it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits. There is no need for me to vindicate Bishonen's actions. This is a t-ban appeal at AE, not a request for desysopping at AN so why is it even being discussed? No, I have no intention of filing for a desysop of Bishonen. My statement in my appeal is thorough and to the point. Your questions go beyond what is expected in an appeal. I've made my statement and acknowledged the areas where I need to improve - if you have reason to believe there are other areas that I need to improve, then provide the diffs please. I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned. Editors who make allegations about another editor are expected to provide diffs to support their allegations. With all due respect, I ask for the same consideration. Provide the diffs so that I may respond with an intelligent, well-thought out answer to your questions. 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

regentspark - I hope it doesn't create an issue, but I just bolded a portion of my text above to emphasize the crux of my appeal. In totality, that is the part that really matters. The focus here is supposed to be a remedy for disruptive behavior, and to deny my appeal based only on speculation and dismissing what I've vowed to do is not fair to me or the project. If you haven't actually studied the diffs in context that were used against me, and I copied to User talk:Atsme/RVW, please take the time to do so because they are what my t-ban was based on - and this appeal is about that t-ban. If you find anything in those diffs that I have not addressed, please advise so we can discuss it. I am a person of principal and I honor my commitments. You can take my words at face value. I am not hiding behind anonymity - what you see is what you get - my real id is on the line here, and I was hoping that my years as an editor have been far more productive than disruptive, so please don't judge me based on this one t-ban. In fact, it would be wonderful if every editor who participated in the AP2 topic area would make a behavior vow similar to mine. AE would look like a ghost town. 03:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• MastCell - please provide the diffs you are referencing so that I may address your concerns. 22:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• Drmies - of course there is a human crisis at the southern border, and something needs to be done about it but AE is not the place to discuss it, and certainly not now. Instead of automatically believing the worst of me, you should have noticed that picture was posted a year ago on my TP and it is no longer there. The story behind it was actually a true situation when a friend's kids were watching TV and saw all the kids playing in one of the camps, and they actually thought it was a summer camp where they could go. Real life moment. Secondly, it has no relevance to this appeal except as an attempt to unfairly smear me, and it should be removed. 05:49, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen

I don't think I'll comment here, unless someone should have an urgent question for me. But it might be useful to have a link to my topic ban rationale. Here it is. Bishonen | talk 21:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC).

It turns out I've nevertheless got a few questions now:

1. @Atsme: You say "Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement." I'm not quite following that. I acknowledged what, where?
2. @Atsme: I notice that now you meet some resistance, the allegations of "involved administrators" appear again: "It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way". Not sure who you're referring to as involved — is it Awilley? Awilley and some others? Bishonen | talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).
3. @Fish and karate: You point out that Atsme's banner about the Trump summer camps is seven months old, and "unless there's evidence of recent advocacy not really concerned about that". How could there be more recent advocacy, when she has been topic banned from American politics for the last seven months? And has properly abided by the ban. Anything Am Pol-related from Atsme is going to be at least seven months. Bishonen | talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).

Statement by Mr Ernie

I would support a lifting of the restriction. This is a very introspective appeal. Atsme is intelligent and articulate, which are characteristics of editors we need on the project. I believe them when they say they've taken those instructive essays to heart. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MrX

Any administrators considering whether to lift this topic ban should evaluate whether Atsme's appeal addresses the full extent of the conduct that resulted in the topic ban. As the editor who brought the original complaint, I can say that it had nothing to do with civility. Brevity and staying on point are necessary, but so is refraining from the other behaviors that lead to the ban: whataboutism, discrediting reliable sources, claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources, filibustering, sidetracking discussions, POV fighting, rehashing comments, refusing to get the point, distorting policies, and wikilawyering.

After Atsme was topic banned, the quality of discussion on several American politics talk pages improved markedly. If the topic ban is lifted, it should come with a firm provision that any recidivism will result in a resumption of the topic ban. - MrX 🖋 02:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• @PackMecEng: I stand by my assertion that the discussions on the Trump talk pages improved in brevity, adherence to the topic, and quality. What's interesting is that if you think they have been the same or worse, why you have not raised your concerns at AE. It's not like you haven't been here before.- MrX 🖋 15:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• It might be helpful to know if Atsme still believes that "the media" is biased and proven to be 90% negative against Donald Trump, or if separating immigrant children from their parents is Barack Obama's fault. Does she still believe that news sources "spin the truth"?. Has her opinion changed that The Washington Post is "highly misleading and inaccurate" when they say "It has become standard operating procedure for Trump and his aides to deceive the public with false statements and shifting accounts."? Does she still believe that CNN, WaPo, NYTimes report disinformation? Does she still think that her close friends on the border are better sources than Leftist mainstream media? - MrX 🖋 22:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MONGO

Atsme is kind, is polite, is passionate about her editing, truly cares and wants to help keep articles balanced in their wording. While Atsme claims that she has had RL issues and what not to attend to since, I feel that the ban took the wind out of her sails for most anything on the site. I therefore support seeing the ban lifted but offer advice should this happen. That advice to Atsme is to not waste your precious hours arguing with editors that loiter on these political articles. While its fine to cast a "vote" and to offer a very concise explanation, the inevitable hectoring from those that disagree with you should be met with no response, no response at all. Brevity is the soul of wit. You will not change their minds, as their minds are made up. Avoid those drama-laden articles where no good happens, no one smiles, no one is happy, where people waste thousands of edits and yet the article is no where near to achieving even a "Good" rating because the article is merely a collection of twisted sound bites, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yes, lift the ban so we can put this behind us and Atsme won't be carrying this on her otherwise quite excellent wiki-resume any longer.--MONGO (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Simply adding that Atsme is going to be watched quite obviously. The chance she is going to make an irreversible error is next to zero and if she does err in a manner unpleasing to those here that object to her unbanning, it will surely be quite easy to ban her again, and that will likely be irreversible...at least in the near term.--MONGO (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Winged Blades of Godric

The appeal looks sincere and impresses upon me that she has understood the problems of her erstwhile conduct in the area. Support a grant. ∯WBG 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Floq

@Atsme:, do you still believe the topic ban was placed unfairly, as retaliation by an involved admin who did so because she hates you? That it should have resulted in Bishonen's desysop? You said that - several times - on your talk page when it was first imposed, and while I haven't gone digging for diffs (I can if you believe I'm being inaccurate), I recall you saying similar things a whole bunch of times after that. Has that perspective changed as well? I'd also value your opinion on MrX's comment above. Do you think the only problem with your behavior was that you weren't being nice and were too longwinded?

I'm a friend of Bish's, so I'll consider myself involved, but these are the kind of things I think uninvolved admins should be asking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Why are you asking for diffs about things that you 100% know you said? Two of which you linked to yourself above? Here are 3 obvious, easy ones:

• Atsme's statement in response to MrX's ARCA filing:
• Atsme's comments on her own talk page after the t-ban imposition:
• Atsme's statement in her appeal in August:

Do a ctrl-f for "Bishonen" in each section and at least a half dozen examples of accusing her of malfeasance will show up in each one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Last reply: I am not trying to get you further sanctioned for the baseless accusations you made about Bishonen 6 months ago. I'm trying to evaluate whether you still have the same battleground mentality and proclivity for gamesmanship in an argument that caused the topic ban to be imposed in the first place. I think you've answered that question, so I'll go find something else to do now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell

I'm concerned that this appeal shows no indication that Atsme understands the rationale behind the topic ban. She states that she has learned the importance of being brief and remaining civil. True, there was an element of bludgeoning in her previous participation in the topic area, and her commitment to avoid that behavior going forward is welcome. But the topic ban was not placed because Atsme was uncivil, or overly prolix. (If anything, commentary in the initial topic ban discussion generally praised her civility). The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. Those behaviors were rightly identified as toxic to our efforts to cover political topics accurately and neutrally. I would absolutely oppose lifting this topic ban unless and until Atsme grapples with the actual reasons that it was placed. And that's a practical consideration, not a personal one: if she doesn't understand why the topic ban was placed, then she will certainly run into the same trouble again. We currently have a major problem on American-politics articles with editors who inappropriately dismiss, stonewall, or undermine reliable sources on partisan grounds, and who enable and amplify each other in doing so. Adding Atsme back to the topic area is a mistake unless it's clear that this behavior isn't going to be repeated.

Separately, Atsme's reaction to the topic ban was highly, and somewhat indiscriminately, belligerent. She attacked various editors and admins as biased, disruptive, and so on, often without any substantive evidence. I understand that, to some extent, this was a fight-or-flight reaction in the heat of the moment. But if that's the case, then I think it's reasonable to ask for some introspection on Atsme's part. How does she view her reaction to the topic ban now, at a distance? Does she continue to believe that it was motivated by bias and personal malice? Does she feel an apology is owed to any, some, or all of the people whom she attacked?

I'm placing myself in this section, rather than the uninvolved-admin section, because I've interacted with Atsme quite a bit. We've often disagreed; we've sometimes agreed; we've generally been friendly. But, like Floquenbeam, these are the kinds of questions I would expect uninvolved admins to ask, as part of their basic due diligence, before entertaining removal of this topic ban (thank you, RegentsPark and Awilley). MastCell  21:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender

In her responses to administrators here, Atsme is going right back into the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and self-justification that got her the indef topic ban. Sample: "it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits." Sample: bringing up Newyorkbrad who wisely ignored her belligerent baiting demands on his talkpage back then: "I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned." Etc. All this says to me that Atsme has not been rehabilitated, does not understand her own behavioral problems, and will likely continue with battleground attacks and self-justifying recriminations if the topic ban is lifted at this time. I will also note that over the course of her TBan she complained fairly noticeably about the TBan, usually symbolically, indirectly, or covertly, but clearly, including to kindred spirits like Winkelvi, including posting images of a person with their mouth gagged, and so on. I recommend retaining the TBan. Possibly an appeal in another six months will be less belligerent and more self-responsible. Softlavender (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I've been involved in the general topic area, but not in the specific disputes with Atsme. I'm concerned about potentially continued advocacy that may be contrary to the goals of the project, such as inclusivity and tolerance. For example, Atsme's Talk page displayed the following in July of 2018:

I asked the kids where they want to go for summer vacation.
They yelled, Kid's summer camp!!
I asked where?
They said, Trump's immigration camp on the border, where all the other kids get to go.

Source: permalink. If the appeal is granted, I would like to request Atsme to please refrain from broadcasting intolerant messages in userspace.

I'm also concerned about the lack of acknowledgement of past battleground behaviour, as specifically was evident in the first appeal. At the time, I described it as "borderline harassment of the editor who submitted the original request": Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics_2#Statement by K.e.coffman. I see this as more than "stray from my customary collegial behavior". Perhaps, a one-way interaction ban should be considered in case the appeal is successful. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies

Whoa, that kid's summer camp was new to me. Atsme, I do not understand how you ever thought that was funny. Those kids, separated from their families, many of them fleeing abuse only to land in more abuse, deserve much better than that. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (next involved editor)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Atsme

Comment by Shrike

I think Atsme learned from her mistakes and I support the appeal --Shrike (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by PackMecEng

For what it is worth it certainly seems she has learned her lesson. I think her contributions elsewhere speak for themselves on that issue. Her response here also clearly shows she has seen the issues with past behavior and has learned form them. I must disagree with MrX's point above though, at best discussions on those pages are the same or worse. To say since the removal of Atsme the pages have "improved markedly" is rather perplexing and an unnecessary comment. I also think that many people will have an eye on her in that subject area and be quick to report any infractions should issues arise. In the end Astme is a productive and valuable editor and it would be a shame if she could not help improve all topics. PackMecEng (talk) 15:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@MrX: I tend not to complain as much. Unless something becomes a large problem or if I think something positive would actually come of it. PackMecEng (talk) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Masem

Not really directly involved in any fashion but I've rubbed up against Atsme and other involved editors enough to consider myself "involved", if only that I share Atsme's stance on how we are treating these topics. I've been in the same boat before with Gamergate (where my policy-based discussed on talk pages were considered by some to be disruptive but not determined to be by Arbcom), and in reviewing the diffs from the original AP actions, the worst I see is the tendentious editing facet, but everything else argued then seemed to be an attempt to silence a dissenting voice that is bringing up valid policy-related matters and otherwise not outright disruptive. (I've seen this far too much in other venues outside AP2) As long as Atsme is aware of TE issues and is willing to back off if told they're approaching that point, then there's no reason to not lift the ban. AP2 is going to naturally create animosity between editors, but we have to be careful to vilify those that seem to be contrary but are otherwise fairly arguing. Talk pages are there to work it out. --Masem (t) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

From Mastcell's comment The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. How one views what Atsme did (per diffs of the AP2 complaint) is eye-of-the-beholder stance. There is an unfortunate trend over the last several years that editors want to blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources. Which way to go is not prescribed by any policy, so there's no right or wrong way, thus it is improper to consider Atsme's interactions as disruptive for these types of comments is in poor judgement. Otherwise, this becomes a very easy way to silence opponents (the same problems happening at Gamergate) That there was TE-ness in their edits, that's very different and an actionable manner and one that, should their ban be lifted, to make sure Atsme stays away from. --Masem (t) 21:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm simply re-stating the original basis for the topic ban. I'm not interested in re-litigating its merits with you, nor do I think you're doing Atsme any favors by minimizing and normalizing the behavior that got her topic-banned. MastCell  22:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Springee

I'm very much not an involved editor here. I have no idea what brought Atsme to this point. What I'm seeing is two camps. One that thinks a second chance is warranted, others who are pointing out past issues out of concern they will happen again. It sounds like a fence case. I see four possible futures here. One, consensus says no and it turns out they were right because Atsme would return to the problematic behavior. Two, consensus say yes and Atsme stays clean. Three, consensus says no but Atsme would have stayed clean. Four, consensus says yes and bad behavior resumes.

The first two represent the correct decisions given future behavior. They represent the betterment of Misplaced Pages. The fourth is unfortunate but also reversible. The third is the problem. In the third case the decision is effectively a punishment rather than protecting the encyclopedia. What is the harm in giving the benefit of the doubt in a fence case? If the Tban is lifted and problems return are people concerned that Atsme's behavior won't be scrutinized or an admin would be more than willing to restore the ban? If lifting the ban turns out to be the wrong choice it can be reversed, edits undone. But if it's the right choice, but not the consensus decision, then the Tban is a punishment for past sins rather than a protection. Both the editor and encyclopedia suffer for it.

For what it's worth, and I only know what people are saying here, I think she should be given the benefit of doubt and lift the tban. It can always be restored. Springee (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Atsme

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I support lifting this restriction, on the understanding that the tolerance for trouble will be very minimal. GoldenRing (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• Note that in making Shrike's comment unthreaded I made a bit of a mess of the template. @PackMecEng and Masem: If you consider yourselves involved, please move your comments back into the involved section. Sorry, everyone. GoldenRing (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• I consider myself involved enough to not participate in this section (beyond this message) to determine the result, but uninvolved in the larger picture. --Masem (t) 19:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, no objection to the restriction being lifted, with the usual caveats about Atsme not backsliding into any of the previous problematic behaviour. Fish+Karate 10:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

  To add, I think the banner K.e. coffman has provided is evidence of a poor lead-balloon joke lifted here out of context, rather than 'political advocacy', and I note it is from 7 months ago, unless there's evidence of recent advocacy I'm not really concerned about that. Fish+Karate 10:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

  @Bishonen: Yes that's right. Sorry I wasn't clear - I would be concerned if there had been anything during the topic ban. As I mentioned, I'd want to see the topic ban lifted with the usual caveats about not backsliding into problematic behaviour, and political advocacy would be one of those behaviours. Fish+Karate 13:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• I share the views expressed by GoldenRing and Fish and karate. Sandstein 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
• I'm a little troubled that Atsme hasn't addressed her remarks about Bishonen that I see linked above (Bishonen's statement). Atsme, do you still believe that Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and that she should be desysopped? I notice that you apologized only for using the word "hate" in your response to Floq - a word which, incidentally, you did not use - but say nothing about the other statements you made about Bishonen's motives following the block. It would be helpful if you would clarify whether you believe that the ban was justified and not retaliatory or made by an involved admin. --regentspark (comment) 19:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

  Atsme, the reason I brought that up is because your initial statement says that you recognize that your editing was less than ideal ("strayed from the collegial", for example) but it didn't specifically address your remarks about Bishonen (actually, coming to think of it, the entire statement is rather devoid of particulars). The point is fairly straightforward. If you continue to think Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and unjustified, then most of your statement is, with apologies, hogwash. Which is why it is not irrelevant. Now that I've read Awilley's comments below, I think what's troubling is that you're dealing in generalities and not pointing to anything specific about what resulted in the t-ban in the first place and not pointing to any specifics about how you're going to change going forward. --regentspark (comment) 01:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Leaning towards accept, but with a few thoughts and one big concern:

1. First, I think Bishonen's topic ban effected a clear net improvement for the topic area. Going back and reading some of the material surrounding the evidence diffs reminded me how bad things were getting, and as a side note it was interesting to see how many of the disruptive editors have since been topic banned or have otherwise moved on. If the topic ban is lifted I would expect Atsme to adapt to how things have changed, and try to further elevate the discourse (which is still far from ideal), and not drag things back in time to 2018 and earlier.
2. I think the appeal above does a really good job of dealing with the concerns of filibustering, IDHT, bludgeoning, etc. That really was a problem. In fact I wrote User:Awilley/Discretionary_sanctions#Anti-filibuster_sanction specifically with Atsme in mind, and if she hadn't already been topic banned at the time of writing I would have placed that sanction on her without any hesitation. (I think it would be a good idea for her to give it a read through and follow it anyway, since it's mostly just good talkpage etiquette.)
3. I don't think the appeal has adequately dealt with the concern about "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" which was a big part of the evidence and rationale for the topic ban. Is Atsme going to continue referring to the "MSM" as "propaganda" or claiming that sources like Breitbart are as reliable as the NYTimes? Note I'm not saying that we should unquestionably accept everything the "MSM" says, but there's a difference between having a healthy skepticism for all sources vs. yelling "Propaganda!" and "Fake News!" when news organizations write things we don't agree with. I'd appreciate a response to this @Atsme.

~Awilley (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@Atsme: Your request for diffs strikes me as a bit disingenuous, and the page you linked didn't resolve my concern. You're responding to the diffs in "Group 1" as if the problem were civility. (It was not.) "The diffs related to the problem I am referencing are all here under the convenient subheading "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" and also the diffs in the following sentence: "Although she often complains about clickbait sources, she is apparently OK with using source like The Daily Caller , Breitbart, World Net Daily, Daily Wire, and RedState" I'm really not interested in re-litigating the rationale of the topic ban and copying over and analyzing diffs that you are perfectly capable of opening and reading yourself. All I want to know is that you understand what the problem was and that you intend to fix it. ~Awilley (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• I think we should accept the appeal. It is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented , proportionately and fairly. It cannot be assumed that in an area like AP (or any country's politics, or any similar mater of wide interest and extensive coverage,) that the sources will be divided neatly into Reliable vs. Unreliable. There is no source whatever in areas like this--even sources which try to present just a factual chronology or something that seems absolutely straightforward -- that can be assumed to be wholly reliable. They may at best be reliable for what they include, but they will always leave some things out. They may do this through deliberate judgment, or inadvertently. Similarly , there is no source so unreliable that it can not be used for what the person who writes it chooses to say about their POV. We cannot understand honest sources unless we compare hem with dishonest ones. The key here is proportionality and fair presentation. Every one of us who is interested in this topic will have a personal POV, and the only way to avoid expressing it is to consciously and deliberately and carefully write for the enemy, something that many find to be very difficult. Even if we cannot do that. we still need to consider that there may be situations where the opposing sources are correct. If I dislike a particular POV, I will be handicapped in finding positive sources about them, and need to at least not oppose those who do find them. . Historically, sources that are generally despised sometimes are the ones which find the most valuable material, The only way to get a balanced article is to be inclusive.

I do not know how close Atsme's politics might be to mine, and in any case I could not talk about it here for I have no intention of disclosing my own--I do know people have made various guesses about it, all of which cannot be accurate. I personally prefer not to edit in this topic area, for the very reason that i do have strong feelings, and though I may be experienced enough to not let them consciously affect my editing, I do not want to say anything that might disclose them. I think it would be good if those who do edit in this area would at least try not to blatantly disclose them either, even in non-article space. I'm aware that some of the people who have been involved in this matter have in fact disclosed them, to a degree that I think improper. and which might have a tendency to discourage opponents. I would therefore set a very high bar indeed to a topic ban in this area. The reasoning is exactly the same why the US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters. These are the ones where we need to be certain to not exclude those on the basis they have too strongly expressed views that we may not individually agree with. Frankly, it does sometimes look as if WP does have a certain political slant. To some extent, this is unavoidable, and will necessarily as in all other topics reflect the people who work here. We should however try to minimize it, and I think we probably need to make an effort to keep partisan political discussion out of user and talk space, as well as articles; indulging in it gives the impression that it will affect the person's content contributions also.

The only significant thing that I think Atsme has done really wrong is carrying on an argument beyond the point where it is productive. Obviously, the same charge will necessarily apply to those on the other side of the discussion. We need to fight any tendency that might look as if we deal with it differently depending on the position. In any case, I think Atsme realizes the reasons why such persistence is not appropriate here. (persistency may be a great virtue in partisan environments, but not in discussing content in WP). I'm concerned both that we need to remove this topic ban, and that we avoid making other similar bans. It is never a good idea at WP to look for reasons to discredit one's opponents. DGG ( talk ) 07:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Smeagol 17

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Smeagol 17

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Smeagol 17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:GS/ISIL :

1RR

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Revert 1: 09:40, 21 February 2019, Revert 2: 11:03, 21 February 2019 - 1RR Violation after recent warning
2. Revert 1: 15:31, 19 February 2019, Revert 2: 07:36, 20 February 2019 - 1RR Violation after recent warning
3. Revert 1: 08:44, February 18, 2019, Revert 2: 09:29, February 18, 2019 - 1RR Violation. Warning

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on April 27, 2018

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• Smeagol 17's deceptive response is not comforting.- MrX 🖋 14:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Smeagol 17

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Smeagol 17

I corrected wrong tense and accepted phrasing in the article, this was reverted without explanation. I used my once per day revert with explanation. What is a problem?Smeagol 17 (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

If my correction was formally uacceptable, then I am sorry. When given warning abot similar (more serious) matter in this article, I complied. If someone told me that this minor correction was also unacceptable, despite ambiguosnes about what constitutes a revert? I would have complied also. Smeagol 17 (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

About temporary self revert. Is it gaming the rules? I though they were working as intended. (I did it after reciving a warning, so I self-reverted for a day) Or what then is the point of allowing one revert a day?Smeagol 17 (talk) 17:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Mr rnddude

The first two "revert 1"'s are ... in what world is copy-editing (first one) and expanding the sentence (second one) considered to be "reverting"? As to the third "revert 1" diff, yes I think that actually constitutes a "first revert". Mr rnddude (talk) 14:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (next involved editor)

Result concerning Smeagol 17

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• While I agree "Syrian government" is more neutral than "Assad regime", this is what talk pages are for. I note one of these breaches was followed by a "temporary self-revert" which was re-reverted a day later, which smacks of gaming the 1RR rule. The other two seem to be clear 1RR breaches and as a warning was previously issued, a short block is probably necessary. A look at the editing history of that article shows some tag team reverting by various editors which may warrant looking into. Fish+Karate 16:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

  Perhaps gaming was too strong a term, but making the second revert, undoing yourself, and then after a bunch of intervening edits by other editors, remaking the same edit just outside the 24 hour window for 1RR is not really conducive to collaborative editing. The one-revert-a-day rule, as with the three-reverts-a-day rule on standard articles, is not an entitlement. You don't have to make sure you get your one revert in a day. The revert rules are an arbitrary mechanism to stop edit warring, with the intent to nudge people into editing collaboratively; ideally you should be discussing, challenging, asking questions, making your case, reviewing sources, compromising, and so on - all the things that mean being a good, collaborative editor - on the article talk page. You should not be clock-watching to see when you can make another revert. I hope the short block you're likely to get gives you a chance to go read a few talk pages and learn a that there is a better, less stressful, more enjoyable way to do things. Fish+Karate 11:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)