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Archives

Pre-Oct 2005 Oct 2005 Disputes Oct 2005 (Mediated) Disputes 1 Oct 2005 (Mediated) Disputes 2 Nov 3 - 13, 2005 (Mediated) Nov 13 - 25, 2005 (Mediated ) 2005 Nov 25 - Dec 22, 2005 (Mediated) 2005 Dec 22, 2005 - Jan 14, 2006 (Mediated) 2006 Jan 14, 2006 To ArbCom decision Feb 6 2006 Mentorship begins Mentorship ends, HeadleyDown and many socks blocked The Swish discussion (March 6th - March 9th, 2006) General Workshop discussion (Feb 12th to May 10th, 2006)

Summary of editor blocks for breach of Arbcom, sockpuppet and meatpuppet use

Summary of case, including useful links and quotes

HeadleyDown (talk · contribs) was a large scale sockpuppeteer, who seriously degraded the Neuro-linguistic programming article with virulent POV warfare and heavy duty personal attack between Summer 2005 - June 2006. The final decision is at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming (February 2006). As of 6 June 2006, all POV editors identified in that Arbcom request have been identified as closely connected sock puppets, meatpuppets or sock pupeteers.

BLOCKS BY MENTORS, SINCE ARBCOM RULING

HeadleyDown blocks:

• HeadleyDown editing as "Camridge" - blocked 13 Feb (1 hr), blocked 14 Feb (3 hrs), blocked 24 march (24 hr), blocked 22 may (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as "AliceDeGrey" - blocked 18 April (24 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as "HansAntel" - blocked 6 May (24 hr, later shortened), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as "Bookmain" - blocked 15 May (24 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
• HeadleyDown editing as himself - blocked 5 March (1 hr), blocked 2 May (48 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sockmaster)

Also blocked (and in many cases suspected to be sockpuppets of HeadleyDown):

• "Flavius vanillus" - blocked 15 Feb (1 hr), 15 feb (6 hrs), 26 feb (24 hrs), 26 feb (extended 48 hrs), 26 Feb (extended again 1 wk), 1 April (2 wks), 2 April (indefinite block)
• "JPLogan" - blocked 5 March (12 hrs), 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "DaveRight" - blocked 23 March (3 hr), 23 march (24 hr), 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Medius Maximus" - blocked 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Addsquad" - 18 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "LemonMnM" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Oblio Yu HK" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Figleaf Riverdance" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
• "Superkyewl" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)

(See: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans)

ARBCOM ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS

1) If a user banned from editing under this decision does so, they may be briefly blocked ... After 5 blocks the maximum block shall increase to one year. (Passed 9-0) WP:RFArb/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Enforcement

user:HeadleyDown has been blocked by mentors 8 times since Arbcom under his own name and various sockpuppets. It is likely most of the other socks were also him, in which case it could be up to around 20 times.

ARBCOM AND MENTOR COMMENTS

• user:David Gerard] states "There may be other throwaway socks involved, email me if you have a list. Unfortunately, they guy is on an ISP with fast-changing DHCP addresses..."

• user:Katefan0 stated to user:HeadleyDown: "A recent checkuser indicates that you and Camridge are editing from the same IP. I anticipate that you will protest that you and Camridge are indeed different people who happen to live in the same place and have the same interests. I find this argument unconvincing -- two sarcastic friends at a Hong Kong university with perfect English and enormous NLP libraries, AND a bias against NLP, AND you found your way to Misplaced Pages within a month of one another. Not to mention all the other sockpuppetry that's come out of a certain Hong Kong university just recently. So I'll be blunt: which account would you like to use going forward? The other will be blocked."

• user:Woohookitty, the last mentor to resign, stated on WP:RFCU: "I am a mentor on the Neuro-linguistic programming. The above 4 seem to be working together to try to get around the restrictions put upon them by the NLP arbcom decision. Essentially, one of the non affected people is reverting and then the affected people are editing. Any help would be appreciated."

• user:Katefan0, another resigned mentor, commented on LemonMnM, Oblio Yu HK, Figleaf Riverdance and Superkyewl: "Hong Kong sockfarm checkuser'ed and blocked"

Posted for the record. FT2 (Talk) 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

HeadleyDown statement

Comment by HeadleyDown on being blocked: "Well, its interesting how many facts are going to be deleted now. And how many will return in future:) Its only a matter of sending the info to the right editor."

Whoa!, Headley-on-Down, probably a master trainer of NLP, one of the only people that can even write anything on NLP, is being taken down like a criminal, just becasue idiots(correct use of the term btw - the ignorant), furiously, in a fit of rage, refute and edit his/her posts using tamed words and sockpuppet missions. Clearly, stating facts about the teachings of NLP are not a 'POV' besides from the view of someone who has learnt something. Hello? Is this a news forum or an encyclopedia? Put simply, the culture here at wiki, needs to be addressed. If you sockmusketeers put your weapons down, HeadlyDown wouldnt have needed to make all those accounts to get the non-subjective-truth out, Ie Facts. Structure might change the culture. Its up to you, the user, to do something about it. If you are happy with people being conformists, start a conformity society.. Everyone is just ganging up and writing chronicals about witches in the NLP section. There is too much guilty by association still, see: McCarthyism. Fix IT.

Comment to sceptics society (if any others are asking)

I have posted this on user:Helen Wu's talk page:

Hi to both User:Antaeus Feldspar and User:Helen Wu. I doubt much I say will make any difference. However, here to clarify is why the HK sockfarm / sceptics place was banned:

Misplaced Pages has rules and policies. Those rules govern, inter alia all personal conduct, and approaches to articles. Because of the nature of the internet, they also govern when and how a user may be removed for suspected accounts, or for multiple editors working together in a manner that blocks proper functioning of Misplaced Pages, even if by chance they are different individuals sharing computers. You may not like this, but each place has its rules, and those were spelled out over a very long period of time, and at many levels. They were spelled out by numerous individuals, personally and on the article, by mediation, by arbitration, by mentorship, and ultimately, by removal.

The users named have been blocked not because of a sudden desire by a number of editors and mediators (most of whom had no prior interest in NLP) to take a side. In fact they were not formally removed until the mediators tired of their knowing improper conduct, after many months of work by 3rd parties who feel their time was wasted. That's how life goes: - in a communal work, no individual is indispensible, and those who do not learn, tend to ultimately discover this. I'm told it's a bit of a shock. They were removed because, simply put, they did not learn how to write in accordance with an encyclopedic style. they were removed for "warfare", vandalism, invention of false facts, deletion of valid sourced material, persistent cognitive inability to comprehend WP:NPOV and a dozen other standards, breaches of sockpuppet policy first notified to them over 8 months ago and not rectified in that time, running of one of the largest sockpuppet/meatpuppet groups of 2005 (WP:SOCK refers), and virulent personal attacks. Most of these things had little to do with the content they were writing.

(Incidentally, several of them were the same individual, not just the same computer. That's been confirmed a number of ways. No I don't plan to clarify, just to say, "do you think this is the first time it's happened here"? Again, ask Headley)

Anyhow, it's done. This is written, on the off chance there are genuine individuals who wonder why the bans happened. Now you know. FT2 (Talk) 13:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I also wrote on her talk page. The thing that the anti side never quite got is that meatpuppets are as against policy as sockpuppets. There is no distinction between the 2. And all of the anti side...every single user...really only edited this article. And from the same university (most were anyway). And the same club. --Woohookitty 13:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes... the same many things. There was a lot more than that to point to WP:SOCK violations.

I have also posted a note on the other articles this cabal have edited, so other bona fide editors can begin assessment and cleanup if affected, and be aware if they return: Principles of NLP, Richard Bandler, Dianetics, Engram (neuropsychology), Modeling (NLP), Scientology, Neurofeedback, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject NLP concepts and methods, as well as reverting vandalism and deleted categories and links on a few others. I can't judge how bad each was hit, but if the editrs are aware, they'll edit as they see fit. FT2 (Talk) 15:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Going forward

The last mentor (user:Woohookitty) has just resigned mentorship.

Going forward, and the last current major sockpuppeteer banned. The article may therefore be able to be worked on, hopefully without too much disruption by further sockpuppetry.

Two things seem obvious:

• Much of the last years editing has produced a mix of information. A lot has been dug up, but the article, its structure, format, bias, slant and reliability, is completely questionable, since so many sockpuppets of HeadleyDown worked on it in that time, and because much dubious information and slanting was forced into it.
• None the less, some valuable information has come out, and this should not be ignored just because it was presented by POV warfare editor/s. Indeed much valuable sourcing has been obtained too. The problem is, is this really representative of the subject? It seems from research, to be a minority view, not a majority one. It's certainly cited in a non-neutral way (ie selective sourcing for effect).

I am going to edit the page to at least revert some of the blatent stuff. then I suspect we will have to evaluate what we have from before the vandalism, bona fide material removed during vandalism, and valuable or questionable information obtained in that time, to try and construct an article that is representative of the field.

I therefore suggest that we resist the urge to revert everything, and limit ourselves to carefully editing clear POV statements for now (which there will be a lot of) rather than rewriting it all and adding too much new material without thought. The damage is simply too pervasive. We can deal with the obvious... then we need to look hard and discuss a bit maybe.

Comments? FT2 (Talk) 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there has been information added that seems valuable to the understanding of NLP, and at the same time it the entire 1st section is so strongly POV in structure that it should definitely be reverted. Perhaps there's a way we can not delete the information which has been added, but move the bulk of all criticisms to the criticism section, while reverting most of the rest of the article.

Once the criticism is properly sectioned, we can go over what is validly sourced, and appropriate and what's fringe POV and redundant. And then add the appropriate criticism to the appropriate section, if need be. In anycase, since A) There remains at least one more sock introduced in the last week or two and B) He'll be back, I think it's important to move boldly and decisively in the immediate future to create a NPOV article, rather than be in the middle of removing bits and pieces when the sock puppets arrive again. Let the sock puppets have to battle to make the changes rather then have us battle to remove the POV and slanting. At least, those are my thoughts. Doc Pato 01:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Question in that case. I've much done as you suggest (we seem to agree), and moved the POV to the crit section or cleaned it up. But in fact almost nothing of NLP itself is left, the article it turns out, was about 80% +/- POV warfare. Would it be better to find the best previous version we can, reinstate, and then look for valid material from the last 9 months to add back? Its a huge POV pile here right now. FT2 (Talk) 02:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, I do think the criticism is important and healthy to have. Further having valid, properly sourced criticism should assist in stemming other similarly motivated POV attacks. It just deserves to be in it's proper place so the reader can get a clearer less distorted picture of the phenomenon of NLP and make their own decision. Your suggestion is probably the best course of action at the moment given the distress of the article. The valid material will still be accessable and we can cut and paste it into the criticism section as need be for review. Doc Pato 02:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I generally agree with FT2 and Doc Pato. I'd prefer to salvage the article, but am open to the idea of reverting to a time when the document was stable. To salvage the article from its current state woud require alot of work and major restructure, and we'd need to deal with the following issues:

• Opinions in the current article are asserted as fact, sources are misrepresented, and minority views currently framed as the significant majority. For example, the overview starts with a assertion from "Hunt, a sociologist...", if we were to characterise the biases we could write, "Stephen Hunt, a sociologist who writes on Christian perspectives in sociology.." This would need to be done in small stages, rather than removing POV we'd expand it so that it is identified as such, or so that the biases of the sources are clearly identified. This can be applied neutrally to the views of proponents and critics. --Comaze 02:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree Comaze. In an ideal scenerio, surgical clean up would be the best option. However, again, these banned socks aren't likely to stop the hardcore POV warrioring we've witnessed. Such an effort would be hijacked again within a matter of days. Progress on creating a NPOV article would be slowed dramatically. Reverting is unusal and shouldn't be used lightly, however this is an unusal case. I don't believe any other Wiki article has been so throughly and persistantly attacked by POV warrroring, and therefore such a situation is just cause for action of this nature.

I propose we move forward with the revert unless there's an legitimate policy based objection from an editor who has been working on this article (in order to having progress thwarted by new socks coming into play). Doc Pato 02:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we have some sample revert versions? (link + date) I'd like more than 1 or 2; we can easily handle a few and discuss their merits, probably quite quickly. FT2 (Talk) 03:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Was there ever a good version of this article? I can see other critics point from earlier articles which seemed POV in the other direction. Here' one Reversion Link, but it too needs some work.

Another option: What about appending the scientific analysis sections, and the criticism section to the Principles_of_NLP page.... then merging it into this article, replacing this articles content entirely?

That way the bulk of criticism remains and there's something decent to work with? Either way, the revert or this works. Doc Pato 03:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Keep it clean. Keep "principles" as principles, with criticisms only of actual principles. NLP and science has its own artticle being developed, which will cover that controversy. Realistically, criticism will end up in the main article, linked to History of NLP (in respect of lack of control, charlatans etc), and linked to NLP and science (in respect of scientific views and criticisms), as well as anything that doesn't fit into either. Those are the main 2 areas of criticism. Sounds sensible? :) FT2 (Talk) 18:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Other suggestion how to get a decent article:

Skim through the history (It started getting vandalized between June 2005 - Sept 2005 for the record), and pick out sections and snippets that look good. Merge the material you find into a new "empty" workshop version. That way 3 things: (1) We will create a good structure and version as we go, (2) we aren't tied to "one version" as "the best so far", (3) we can respect different people's input and views better as to what's good content. It'll be slightly long, but refactoring, adding cites, and cleanup, is easy compared to rewriting, and we can then see the best of what various editors added at different times.

Would folks like to try that, in preference to a "find a single best version to revert to"? FT2 (Talk) 07:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Errrr the more I look at the older versions, the more reversion seems to be an equal amount of work. That being said, I have no objection. I just don't see any version that's particualrly worthy. I've taken the liberty of making a number of structural edits as well as merging from other NLP articles. I'll continue to do so when I've time. If anyone has any objections or corrections, unless their fundemental, I'd suggest for the moment just doing it.

The only thing I noticed about some of the merged material, while more accurate, it's not sourced very well. Citiations and sourcing are going to be the big issue I think. Doc Pato 08:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm steering a little clear as all these changes go forward. I commend everyone, things are looking far far better. For the next few days there'll be very little change that isn't fundamentally better than what was there before...so we're likely to agree quite well.

The article has also been missing some pretty important NLP info too - maybe you've already added it (I'll try to catch up soon). For instance, Headley^9 removed info and quotes we had from NLP books in favour of his sources, which skewed what was being said - so we're lacking some of those really fundamental references. He also removed the valid criticism of variation in NLP training (and made NLP appear to be a single standard), which made it easier to find a bad training and tar NLP generally with the same brush. Anyway.. all good things :) Greg 09:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I reworked the background - I just noticed a few typos and grammar that needs to be copyedited. It now includes something about the difference in quality of NLP training as you suggest. You could also add a little about the various standards associations, and training associations - this is a common criticism in the literature. Based on the today changes, I'd like to see if we could just import snippets of the best versions of the article, and merge the best parts of the sub articles. We've got megabytes of archived text to draw upon. --Comaze 09:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

See my draft approach at Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Reconstruction. This is slow and painstaking, so lets get a decent version up. But its a way to try not to lose the best of what was created. I reviewed about 30 versions to find what seemed to be plausible approaches to the intro. The same could be done for other sections. Not sure if this is a sensible way. Might be best to pick one semi-decent version and then tinker. The last decent version before POV warfare seems to be this, dated May 18 2005 (first two suspect named editors D.Right and EBlack joined the article 17-18 May, may have been IP-only editor issues before but minimal). Thoughts? FT2 (Talk) 10:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Focus on objectivity

Psychology is the most subjective of all sciences and therefore I ask everyone to keep an open mind towards NLP as a science, as the aim of Misplaced Pages should be to provide neutral and objective information rather than articles based on bigotry and partisanship.

NLP is the antithesis of traditional psychology (modeling extreme cases of mental illness and searching for causation) as NLP models people with the ability to do something extremely well in order to map how such 'healthy thinking' can be reproduced by other people. Therefore, supporters of traditional psychology have a serious conflict of interests that makes it impossible for them to contribute without bigotry or partisanship in some form or another. However, while traditionalists may be incompetent in contributing to writing an objective and informative article about NLP, they are more than qualified to review the text to ensure the neutrality of the wordings.

I know that there has been a lot of sabotage on the NLP page, but more or less anal argumentation against NLP by supporters of conventional psychology should be considered destructive sabotage as well. The discussion about whether NLP should be recognized as science or not belongs in foot note form only, as everything beyond "NLP has been criticized for lack of merits and some supporters of traditional psychology refuse to recognize NLP as science" is completely useless for the Misplaced Pages visitor who is searching for objective information about NLP and not intellectual masturbation by the academia.

NLP has the same problem as the 'round earth theory' had a few hundred years ago; it is a new approach that will never get a fair peer review, because there is no real peer reviewers as long as the already recognized scientific peer is entrenched with bigotry and partisanship to support the exact opposite thesis.

In order of relevance, a neutral article about NLP should contain points about a) WHAT is NLP, b) HOW does NLP theory differ from traditional psychological theory, and c) is NLP RECOGNIZED as a cognitive science. The last point is the closest to irrelevant and please note that it asks whether NLP is recognized as science, not whether it is a science.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just wanted to contribute with my view on how the new NLP article can be better structured.

Thomas

Hi Thomas. It is true that Psychology and NLP have different goals, methodology, & support 'infrastructure'. NLP does not teach the scientific method in any way, nor the statistical procedures associated with it in Psychology. And there's no career path associated with such research for someone in NLP. However, it is possible for Psychologists to write an objective article about NLP, though they'll have their own filters as to their understanding. Druckman & Swets talk about NLP studies, but then almost exclusively focus on PRS. Many people who know a little about NLP think of Swish, Anchors, Embedded commands - they don't consider the Metamodel or Intention & 6-step reframes.

Psychological testing of NLP patterns is certainly possible, and has been done. However, within Psychology and Psychotherapy there exists already a 'chasm' between "counsellors" and "researchers" - problems such as making the environment too artificial for an intervention to be effective. Anyway, many NLP patterns are as testable as CBT interventions, but Psychologists are taught CBT and are much more prepared to test it. Their tests are less controlled than traditional tests and show an overall result after CBT interventions. We have 6 such tests of NLP indexed in Medline with similar positive results, but they are not as controlled as the CBT tests are, and this is a problem.

Anyway, I do agree that psychologists are likely to approach NLP from a Psychological viewpoint, and that means there interpretation may be skewed. However, we can represent that POV, and represent the differences in NLP and Psychology, to clarify these things rather than make them murkier. Greg 01:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Greg,

I am not a psychologist nor am I an NLP practitioner. I am a relatively ordinary person. I say relatively ordinary, because I see challenging authority and questioning status quo as a way of life :)

I know you would like to hang your hat on the scientific method, but using the generally accepted definiton of science and even the dictionary definitions of science, then the scientific method is not necessarily the litmus test of science, but science is just as much systematically collecting and organizing knowledge as an object of study. It may be that NLP does not fit into a conservative interpretation of the scientific method, but is cognitive science not a science? Is cognitive science a bullet proof example of strict adherence to the scientific method?

The Misplaced Pages "cognitive science" article mentions three levels of analysis; behavioral, functional, and physical. NLP is based on modelling and simulation on the behavioral and functional levels because it is focused on finding out what works (output/behavior) and how it works (processes/functionality) rather than why it works (physical/organic mechanisms). NLP is based on presuppositions derived from observations on the behavioral and functional levels as it recognizes that insufficient knowledge and technology is currently available to give definitive answers to how and why the brain works on the physical level. Would it be more scientific if NLP was purely based on assumptions that cannot yet be proven right or wrong?

The original goal of Richard Bandler and John Grinder was to create new and improved tools for cognitive therapy, but rather than seeing NLP as a supplement or a potential optimization of traditional cognitive therapy it was seen as a direct competition. If you go through NLP literature you will see plenty of references to NLP as a set of tools, but I doubt you will find anybody claiming that NLP is all-including psychology.

Considering that psycology therapists are human beings like the rest of us, it would not be unreasonable to suspect that they are just as susceptible to the 'resistance to change phenomenon' as everybody else. Therefore, the lack of objective 'scientific' studies of NLP supports that it may be more the rule than the exception that neurology and psychology scientists are in bed with each other. This also explains why there is 'no career path' or rather 'no recognized career path' in main-stream science as NLP supporters have been pushed out in the cold by the incumbents and have had to establish their own parallel universe with education framework, peer review, and career paths - I suggest you do an internet search for 'NLP university', 'NLP training', and 'NLP certification' which will show you a corner of that parallel universe ;)

I can reccomend this article by Jaap Hollander, a clinical psychologist and NLP supporter, called "NLP and Science - Five recommendations for a better relationship" http://www.nlpca.com/articles/article14.htm Though he does not fully agree with 'my definition' of science it is still a very interesting article smack in the middle of the subject we are discussing.

Would it be neutral and objective to describe NLP as something in the direction of "NLP is a relatively recent, and still developing, school of thought in cognitive science with a focus on developing tools for..."?

Anyway, I am not religious about the science label and regardless of whether NLP is 'in vitro science', 'organic science' or '(scientific) theory at a pre-science stage' it may be more productive to focus on what NLP is, rather than on what it is not :)

Have a nice day,

Thomas - --TSinBP 13:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick reply. I think we're mostly in agreement. I don't "hang my hat on the scientific method" in any way, I agree there's animosity and that science has a belief system too, I just believe there's value in both systems. DIfferent perspectives. Greg 16:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Return

I think I am ready to make a serious return to editing this page (though I did comment during the mentorship here and there). Now that the "anti" side is pretty much completely banned, I'd look to help clean up the POV wars mess and also makesure that neutrality is maintaned.Voice-of-All 05:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And I want to add that I did resign my mentorship but I am still going to monitor this page and contribute when I can. If anything else, I can now edit this mess. ;-) I was a bit leery of blocking the final "anti" NLP user, but using that many socks was such a blatant attempt to get around the arbcom decision that I couldn't let it slide.

Anyway, the main thing I'd like to see here is a reduction of the number of sources. Let's see if we can get the citations to under 50. Let's get it manageable. Any edits I'm going to do are probably going to make this article more readable to John Q Public. --Woohookitty 06:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello all! Wow. Finally verification of what was obvious in other ways. And you're right - we need to act quickly and decisively. And I too am ready to return.

The reversion seems to be a worthwhile idea. It MAY be possible to get the NLP(temp) page undeleted if that is of any use - the goal of that page was to represent everything that this page was saying, but in its proper context and appropriately weighted - it never succeeded, but may be useful to start with. Other than that - it's difficult to find a good historical version. Headley came in a year ago and changed alot, but we were also here adding stuff. Perhaps the "principles of NLP" may serve as a basis, but it is much shorter - it simply doesn't have the structure to fit in what's currently here.

Perhaps we should look at the structure. What should be the main 4 or 5 sections? And their 4 or 5 subsections? If we can quickly pick that we could then move information into that structure and begin the cleanup. Comaze made a suggestion, as did I.

I think overall we'll have to simply pick a starting point - and then put the article in one editors hands (who has some time) to do his/her best. For instance - if Doc knew he had the next 4 hours to devote to the article, he could have free reign to make it as good as he can in that time. Otherwise we'd step on each other's toes. Is that feasible? Greg 06:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

ps. To avoid sockpuppets derailing again in the near future, we should probably consider people with a legitimate history on here as more involved with any restructure. Greg 06:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with the idea of a reversion or one editor doing alot of edits. I would caution, though, that we should probably have users who want to do that give a general outline on here as to what they want to do. I'm just looking to avoid chaos. :) Another thing to mention is the {{Inuse}} template. Use it if you are doing one of these 4 hour edit sessions. It basically tells other users that a major edit is being done on the page and that they shouldn't edit until the time is complete. As you can see on the template page, you can give it a time interval, like 5 minutes or 4 hours or however long the major edit is going to take. I'm pointing this out because it's a template that lots of users don't know about and it can be quite useful here. --Woohookitty 06:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good. I notice lots of good work already happening on the page .. I just rewrote rep systems but someone else posted theres before I finished ;-) Damn ! But who cares! Progress! Greg 06:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Progress. What a concept. Btw folks. If anyone ever asks you to become a mentor, I have 3 words for you. Just. Say. No. lol I am glad, though, that we were able to find the socks before mentorship officially ended. But being a mentor was the hardest thing I've ever done, no offense. :) --Woohookitty 06:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And mediating all these people, just being one person myself, not being able to block (as a mediator), was harder than coding the hardest javascript I coded. I'm glad nobody has to waste their time of this again, and hats off to all the mentors who bothered to give a darn.Voice-of-All 06:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah? :) You never saw just *how* bad it was. I suffered mild wikiburnout just trying to do the Arbcom case for the sockpuppeteering last November. I got to about 14 confirmed socks then, plus strong evidence, and it got too complex to arbcom-ize........ FT2 (Talk) 07:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I'll second FT2. I don't want to relive March ever again. Ever. Again. :) IIRC there was appx. 1 MB of talk just in a 6 week period. I will say though. I don't want to give Headley/Camridge/Alice/Bookmain et all credit, but keeping all of those socks straight must've been a challenge. --Woohookitty 07:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

(and hats off to user:Comaze for sticking it out amidst such nastiness!) FT2 (Talk) 07:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

okokok... and hats off to you and the mentors too * grins * Do I detect a party mood on this article here? :) FT2 (Talk) 07:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

(And you don't have to. All of them said the same things, so it wasn't exactly complicated. >Pick random sock. >Spout same rubbish. >Repeat. :P) FT2 (Talk) 07:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit of a post mortem. We deserve it. :) --Woohookitty 07:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

A very apt phrase, in the context. For my part, with all due deference to WP:NPA, the more mortem and the less post(ing), the better :P FT2 (Talk) 08:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's time to use rename -=C=- back to Comaze 09:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I archived the workshop talk page

926 KB total. That's. 9. 2. 6. :) I'm going to erase the workshop page and redirect it back to here. If we ever want to recreate it, we can. As Comaze and Greg can attest to, we didn't really have any progress anyway. --Woohookitty 12:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And you stopped us before we got to 1MB, how could you? --Comaze 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you like to get slapped? :) I'm kidding. Well if you include all of the archives, it's way over 1MB. --Woohookitty 13:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Our maybe get scrached? :D Voice-of-All 16:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Semipro?

Will this have to have indef semi-pro? To bad you coudn't range block IPs from editing a certain article. Maybe a VoABot could .split('.') the names of IPs and check the last blocks for range combinations and autorevert, I always though something like that would be interesting...Voice-of-All 16:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Development

I'm concerned that it might end up becoming a "soft" article, lacking focus or balance if "stuff gets added back" at whim. I know that's the approach I thought would work, but I don't know if it will now.

What I'd like to suggest is, can we get it to a reasonable balance, at least enough to present the main facts and main criticisms, and then cease working on the main article and instead open a workshop + talk page and look carefully at how it's structured and what should go in its sections?

I have set up an overview structure of the article as it stands, at /Workshop, for editing and discussion. Hopefully we can flesh out what the article should look like, and then start to fill it in. FT2 (Talk) 17:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• First major clean-up. History of NLP moved to its own article, sensible wikipedia-style section and link replaces it :) FT2 (Talk) 22:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Second major clean-up. "Users" section created, so that claims (whether of use or scepticism) are not merely left as hearsay, allowing users to judge the places NLP is used for themselves. FT2 (Talk) 01:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Third major cleanup - can someone please sort out the "fundamentals" which is basically a copy & dump from "Principles of NLP"? See below. Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Fourth major cleanup - I'm working on a much needed article, NLP and science. I think this one will actually not be hard to do, since it's pretty much a matter of "list research, summarize a balanced view of all sides, and comment". But it needs careful work. Once I've put in what I can that is fair, that I know about, I'd like some help to ensure all sides are fully and fairly represented and cited. That's not yet, but "soon". You can see on that stub, the outline I'm working with. FT2 (Talk) 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Remember to avoid rhetorical questions. Misplaced Pages is not a research journal. We're not here to "prove" theories. Secondly, the article has "Anecdotal evidence from users". That is unencyclopedic. Again. We're not here to prove theories. We're also not here to give "real world" examples. Again, that reads like a research paper. The "Is NLP a science?" section needs to revamped. I have no problem with an article looking at the relationship between science and NLP, but we're not here to prove theories or to put forward theories. You have to make it sound more authoritative sounding. --Woohookitty 11:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• I made the one section less rhetorical by removing the questions and putting it into a format we generally use. It still reads too much like a research paper in parts. It needs to be "dumbed down" a tad. But I'll wait to do anything else until you are done, FT2. --Woohookitty 11:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wanted to add that your other changes are good, FT2. Very good actually. I always felt like this article should be split into several different articles with the main article summarizing what's in the offshoot articles. --Woohookitty 12:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually anecdotal evidence can be made factual. Its all down to what's meant by anecdote, and citing sources: "It is notable that NLP has been regarded as valuable by many independent clinical bodies (list of cites), and police forces (list of cites), although other bodies consider it unproven or express doubts (list of cites)." Thats how you make anecdote scientific. We aren't presenting a scientific point of view, but a neutral one; it is notable that many bodies regard NLP as valuable, it is also notable that few of them have formally tested it as such, in a laboratory sense. That's the meaning of "anecdotal evidence". It's suggestive of findings, but it is not in any sense scientific "proof". Does that clarify at all? Let me know if that makes sense. FT2 (Talk) 16:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. As I said, I'll wait until you've added everything you want to the NLP and science article before I edit it. Just a warning though. I'll be editing it alot. :) Just need to change the tone from college essay to encyclopedia. I won't change what you are saying...just how its said. --Woohookitty 10:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Fundamentals -- Can someone else compare the "fundamentals" section to the article Principles of NLP? They pretty much coincide, it's almost a direct "lift". That's why the article is so insanely long. None the less, some recent cites and edits from this article ought to be merged back into "Principles" (if valid). When "Principles" is up to date on everything of value, the matching sections in this article needs to be cut right down to a summary plus "Main article: LINK". Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 01:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we could merge 2.1 Foundational assumptions and 2.2 Presuppositional beliefs. "2.8 Other Concepts, Models and Techniques" could also be merged, by introducing and linking to them from other sections. --Comaze 02:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you? Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 02:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll do my best, but I'm a techie not an academic, so if you could copyedit my work I'd appreciate it. --Comaze 02:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Comaze - I may get involved in that as well. There ARE NLP presuppositions which are separate from fundamentals... though currently those 2 sections are synonymous. I may elaborate on presuppositions. Is that okay? Greg 05:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Greg, I've posted my first (early) draft of the principles / fundamentals section... http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Reconstruction#Replacement_of_Fundaments_section_.28working_title.2C_Principles.29 - you're welcome to edit, however you wish.. Just let me know if you are working on it. --Comaze 10:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Next clear-up... NLP and science was long and going to get much longer since new studies can always be added. That's a problem now, more so in future. So I've moved the actual research to List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming with NLP and science then linking and summarizing. Should be a lot cleaner. FT2 (Talk) 10:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That felt good

I just made my first real edit to this article. I made the first paragraph cleaner and clearer. I never could figure out why some were set on cramming so much into the first paragraph. For one thing, "personal development" covers really all of the main reasons why people adhere to NLP principles. Specifics can be covered later in the article. As I've said from the start, we need to write this article for the average reader, not experts. You guys have no idea how long it was that I had no idea what NLP really was. NLP isn't that complicated. We need to make sure people can read through the first paragraph without going "Huh?" like I did when I first read it. :) --Woohookitty 11:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

yay! And you just helped me figure out why I never liked it. The thing is, one of the 3 is not subordined to the other two. It's how all three interact together. I didn't spot it till WHKitty edited :) Does the revised text help at all? Comments? Three versions:

• Version #1 -- "The term 'Neuro-linguistic programming' stems from being a set of models and principles meant to describe the relationship between mind (neuro) and language (linguistic) and how their interaction might be organized (programming) to affect an individual's mind, body and behavior."

• Version #2 -- "... meant to explore how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact to create subjective reality and human behavior."

• Version 3 -- "... meant to explore how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact, and how they give rise to, and are influenced by, subjective reality and human behaviors."

I hope that builds on user:woohookitty's neat editing, in a good way. The third version highlights the 2 way nature of it. Thoughts? FT2 (Talk) 14:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I find that 3rd version quite complicated, though I'm not sure how to keep the concepts and make it simpler yet. I'll have a play some time (though I'm finding it hard to keep up for now, no time)

On a slightly different-but-similar note, I once wrote a paragraph replacement for the literal meaning of Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It was an attempted compromise and as such wasn't "free"... but if any of it is of any value then good...

• Neuro-Linguistic Programming literally means "brain-language programming". NLP teaches that the brain has an internal language which is programmed through life experiences. Everyone has different experiences and learns differently - sometimes people learn well, sometimes poorly - and sometimes someone develops excellence in a certain field. A key goal in NLP is to help people learn or develop new behaviours & thought patterns - both by learning new patterns based on what others do particularly well (NLP modeling), and through exploring a person's existing way of doing things to find new perspectives & possibilities. NLP claims that people do the best they can given the choices they believe they have - and that if someone finds a new more effective way of doing something they will use it in preference to the old.

Greg 02:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well FT2, I'm glad you like it. I think the intro (and alot of this article) got overcomplicated when there were just too many chefs stirring the pot. It happens. And that's not an indictment of the anti-NLP side. I think that if we had 12 editors that were all pro, the same thing would've happened. Just too many voices and viewpoints and they couldn't agree on anything. --Woohookitty 03:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro reword?

I was looking at the intro, wondering if it really was as smooth as it could be. Do people like any aspects of this?

Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a set of techniques, axioms and beliefs developed around 1973 by Richard Bandler and professor John Grinder, in examining why certain world-renowned psychotherapists were so effective. Rather than explore this question by forming theories, Bandler and Grinder sought to study directly what exactly the therapists were doing in their sessions that enabled them to obtain such results, and to categorize and systematize it.

Based on these observations, NLP teaches people how to observe and utilize patterns, and to adapt their approach and respond to others in a high quality and skilled manner, as did the original, very effective therapists drawn upon. It was metaphorically described by the original developers as "therapeutic magic" and 'the study of the structure of subjective experience".

NLP is predicated upon the assumption that peoples' behaviors have structure and purpose. The term itself summarizes how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact, and how they give rise to (and are influenced by) subjective reality and human behaviors. NLP focusses upon a wide range of areas beyond its core area of communication, including therapy, coaching, skills analysis ("modeling"), negotiation, personal development, and allergy and trauma change.

(Last paragraph on criticisms, as at present)

I've drawn on Druckman to rewrite the description. Is it any good? FT2 (Talk) 22:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good, but may be selling NLP and not neutral enough. As for the old intro - I was going to question the existing "NLP was influenced by ideas of the New Age" (which ideas are we talking about!?) and "primarily personal development" as most NLP I've seen is working with 2 people... yet it is for the personal development of the client. Greg 16:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Synesthesia

Hi. There are a many paragraphs here and there which won't make sense to a lay reader, and as the big brush strokes are being well done by you guys I may get involved in some of that - so if there are areas where you're happy with the broad result let me know and I'll have a look at any ways I think might be better for wording things. I know woohookitty is doing the same. Anyway, one example is this.

• NLP does not recognize any ultimate mediator in the structure and organization of subjective human thought except the senses, sensory representations, and human neurology and physiology. However it does not place a limit on what may be represented within or by those systems – possibly by synesthesia, the experiencing of one form of sensation within a different sensory system. So NLP considers it a legitimate question to study the subjective experience, and subjective processes, of anything that humans claim to experience.

I think the first sentence can be cleaned a bit, but I was firstly checking that it actually made sense. I got stuck on "possibly by synesthesia" - what are we trying to say with that? A synesthesia is a connection between senses or sensory representation systems, via human neurology.... it IS human neurology. Perhaps it should say "examples include synesthesias and .... (beliefs? habits? etc)".

FT2, you said it needed to be there but not sure how - can you clarify the intent / what you want to say generally, and I'll play with the wording? Greg 22:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Long winded explanation of what and why I have used that term there..... When NLP says stuff "is" processed auditorily, visually, etc, it is, at least possibly, talking metaphorically. In other words, its possible that one interpretation of NLP is, "for practical purposes we can treat it as if it is procesed sensorily". Now... when NLP models something esoteric and new-agey, like ESP or spirituality, and renders it down to sensory specifics, it is POSSIBLE that what's meant is, "if this was a sense, what sense would it be". It may be an "as-if"... that we are rendering it into other sensory modes, but this does not mean that (if they existed) spirit or ESP are a sensory mode. Sensory modes are a means of working with impressions that the brain, by analogy and metaphor, understands. Same as when NLP says "you don't know how, but PART OF YOU does", its pushing for a translation of the system into a "you" that doesnt and a YOU that does, and working with that... NLP doesn't know if its true, but it says, its useful to work with it as if it is. Synesthesia is the term used when something that is actually in one sensory system, is perceived in another too, so it fits this. It's a term I'm using to say "ESP/spirituality/whatever impression may not have actually been in that sense, but by metaphor and analogy, LETS ASSUME it is rendered into some "known" sense, what would it be". Hope that (in a vague way) helps.

If there is a better term or way to clarify the fact "NLP does not technically say it IS always sensory, but that it helps to AS-IF that it is always a known sense, even if that means some mental manipulation to As-If translate it to another modality...." -- then use it :) FT2 (Talk) 00:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow... okay I'm a little lost. NLP never actually says what IS going on inside... just how people report its experience, or as evidenced in their language and actions. And in that sense - doesn't NLP say that all experiences are made up of VAKOG elements? Personally I say that our concepts (F2 transforms/second attention) are mapped onto VAKOG elements (which only works if you can map some things into Internal Dialogue). Let me think about this :-) Greg 07:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yup, its the crucial difference of accuracy of saying "it is VAKOG" or:

• "it can be represented and manipulated as if it is VAKOG"
• "It's subjectively perceived as VAKOG"
• "As you look at that, does it seem <submodality description>?" -- does this direction mean it was a voice, or was it an impression which we create an auditory version of?

NLP is not averse (as I see it) to saying "we don't know what that imopression is, but it can be described and manipulated in VAKOG language"... and possibly thats a subtle but important issue. FT2 (Talk) 07:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently added sub-articles open for editing

4 new sub-articles added, and their statuses:

1. History of NLP -- development finished, discuss on its talk page or edit it, as normal.
2. List of users of Neuro-linguistic programming -- development finished, discuss on its talk page or edit it, as normal.
3. List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming -- From "NLP and science" so that the "studies" section of that article doesn't get insanely long. Open to editing and discussing as normal, some sections incomplete, sketchy or not drafted. Main article structure done. Generally supportive research added. Cognitive/neurological research omitted and to be added (have research, needs summarizing). Accurate representations of any critical studies omitted at present as I'm not convinced I have an accurate representation of them. There is a strong negative view, the studies reporting it need fairly representing. Please edit and discuss this article and help fix that weakness.
4. NLP and science -- much of it is done, but unfair to draft the summary sections for this until the above article ("List of studies...") is more complete.

In brief, all 4 of the above can be edited, completed and discussed as normal, in their own right. FT2 (Talk) 00:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also updated: The mess in "rep systems", "modalities" and "submodalities" now mostly re-cleaned up, see Representational systems (NLP) and Submodality (NLP). Needs cleanup still in some sections. Woohookitty, you might like that intro, it actually explains what rep systems are about in NLP, not just "technical jargon" :P :) FT2 (Talk) 12:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I know I might get kicked for saying this thing but I get what is happening here. You dont want a critic in the discussion. Hong Kong people are pretty anti the NLP as you see in the newspaper. But I'm not stupid. You guys just ask me to post things here to get me kicked. Hylas Chung 10:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you don't get what's happening here. We want critics. We just don't want more meatpuppets that have come here via the University of Hong Kong skeptics club. --Woohookitty 10:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where I should post this... I want to work on the follow articles... Perceptual_positions (cleanup), Meta_model_(NLP) (expand and cleanup, add third party references), Rapport_(NLP) (merge with Rapport), Neurological levels (expand article). Generally, we need to rely on third party reliable references. --Comaze 17:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

On the project page? A list there under "things to do" of "pages needing attention" (and why) would be a good idea. FT2 (Talk) 08:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming

I have problems with List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming. It's just simply not needed. And it'd be impossible to maintain. It's simply not necessary to have a listing of every study done of NLP. And it reads like a bibliography for a college essay. There isn't another article on the site like it and I just don't see the need for it. We have a reference list for this article and we're going to for all of them. We don't need anything additional. We're not here to make arguments about how "valid" NLP is. We're here to write an encyclopedia article on it. Readers can make up their own mind by going through the References. We don't need anything beyond that. I really think it should be deleted. --Woohookitty 17:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has many such "list of..." articles. They aren't intended to make a case, of "prove" anything, but to provide useful source materials for others who may be interested. A large proportion aren't expected (or able) to be complete. There are "list of..." articles of everything from List of open source software packages, List of television personalities, List of algorithms, List of neologisms on The Simpsons, List of portmanteaux, List of digital library projects, List of biomolecules, List of trivia lists, List of family separation research articles... Research into NLP (for and against) is not that well listed anywhere, and is clearly valuable as information to those with an interest in the field. In what sense is it not encyclopedic to have an article listing known studies (of all sorts, not just "for" or "against") in a subject? FT2 (Talk) 21:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You are talking apples and oranges, FT2. The lists you listed are lists for general knowledge. That's what encyclopedias are for. A list of sources of NLP is not general knowledge. It's essentially a very long article that consists of a bibliography with a long reference list. And it's not just a bibliography. It's a bibliography with commentary, which I know is going to be disputed by the anti NLP side. It's unencyclopedic in that it's simply not an encyclopedia article. You are never going to find an article in an encyclopedia that is entirely a list of sources. If you see anything approaching that, it's going to be a reference section and we already have that in this article. So it's redundant. It's not needed because we already have reference lists in other articles. And it's unencyclopedic in that you are never going to see just a listing of sources as a separate article in an encyclopedia. That's what reference lists at the end of articles is used for. Read Misplaced Pages:Listcruft. --Woohookitty 02:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I sort of see the point you're making. I was looking more at WP:LIST, "Information: The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list..." It's hard to see a list of studies as not being that. As I understand it, part of what you're saying is, if a study is discussed in NLP and science it'll be footnoted there, and if it isn't then it doesn't need mentioning, so a list would be unnecessary in any event. Is that about right, or am I missing something more fundamental? FT2 (Talk) 05:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you've got most of my point. It's just not needed. And I think that having it just opens us up to more rancor and fighting and we've had enough of that. :) --Woohookitty 07:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Would it be okay to leave it as a reference article for a while, as we clean the field up? It's a bona fide list of sources at least, and will serve well to use as source material for criticism and citation sections (if someone adds the "against" articles), and its value can be judged by that. If it gets hostility I would agree, but it's hard to see people legitimately objecting to a list of research papers as "invalid" or "biased". I don't think it meets AFD criteria... though obviously I can see where you are coming from. can we leave it a while, and come back to it? It's a useful source while all this is going on... and would be more so if the "negative" articles were also cited for reference too. FT2 (Talk) 12:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually FT2, I'd recommend moving it to your userspace. Articles like that should probably be in an userspace. If you don't know how to do that, let me know. You basically just go to your userspace, add a / to the end of the address and then add the name of the article and then just create the article. I can do it for you if you don't know what I mean. --Woohookitty 08:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

N.L.P.

This is interesting. I see quite a few sudden changes to the article but with not much in the way of reliable backup (in fact some reliable backup to science has been removed). Looks a little desperate. I find the scientific research by Devilly, Sharpley and others to be highly convincing and quite conclusive. I think NLP looks pretty much like pseudoscience. I'd like to see if I can salvage some of the sensible views on NLP. Banning rule-breakers is one good thing, but the science view really does need caretaking. Its pretty clear what the general science view is. I'd like to keep it maintained. I've access to most of the research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by brightonRock101 (talk • contribs)

Much as I try to assume good faith, I do feel in this case there's a good chance we've just met the first of the sneaky sockpuppets, pretty much as predicted. Before we go further, would you care to make a statement that you aren't in any way related to the recent sock/meatpuppet ring or the Hong Kong Sceptics group? FT2 (Talk) 18:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It is with great dismay that I have just read through the Misplaced Pages information on the subject of NLP. It seems to be filled with comments from people who have only a passing knowledge of the subject and have based their recording on a 'gut-feeling'. No details of research were shown to place some illumination on the basis of the criticism. They seemed to be examining only the high priced seminares from those engaged in the commercial selling of NLP. minimum details in education-sport-health progress.

As a psychologist with 15 years of experience in consulting people with minor health conditions. In conducting many work-shops for lay people to experience NLP. I would like to add two observations 1. The detractors claim no research has been undertaken that validates the use on NLP as a method of substance. That is a nonsense request just as it is for the natural health discipline acupuncture to be examined by existing medical research methods. Once an academic -medical practitioner writing on the subject of NLP clearly understands that no two people have similar attitudes and beliefs, such an academic would then surely understand that it is impossible to make comparisons. (using present protocol) How can one place acupuncture needles within a body without an effect being caused. Our outdated research system is the reason that one cannot examine NLP to be accepted in present protocol restrictions for authenticity. They claim that case history results do not carry weight as evidence in favour of the value of NLP. That is a pity becaue I have over 2,000 cases in my records showing positive changes made by people being helped by NLP. The growing number of organisations placing NLP within their own list of resources surely adds to the evidence. The strength on the psychology discipline is underlined by the number of Fortune 500 companies using NLP 2. My firm belief in the reason for the dismissive manner that NLP receives from the medical establishment is this. The average number of clinic visits for a patient to need when undergoing an NLP treatment is 3 visits. I just wonder how many of the learned respected contributors the the Misplaced Pages Encylopedia had this fact in mind when damning the discipline so stongly. Ray Trevor Twine MA (behaviour psychologist) Owner of the Surry Clinic Surrey UK 1992-1998 trustee of the Complimentary Medicine Research Project Trust Uk.

Hi, and thanks for commenting. It's valued.

Some background that may help, on both this article, and Misplaced Pages in general. As regards this article, it has recently (this week) emerged from almost a year of extreme editorship on the critical front. Accordingly editors who are attempting to balance both "sides" and present it neutrally and fairly, are still in the process of cleaning up and attempting to sort out valid from biased information. Please read About Misplaced Pages for more on Misplaced Pages to understand the manner in which this happens, and that it is an inevitable aspect of an open encyclopedia -- sometimes vandalism or mis-editorship arises and takes time to remove. This was a very large-scale case of it. The payoff is that it is hard to vandalise something long term, and the system is by and large robust, comprehensive and self-correcting. So it's "swings and roundabouts".

Second, regarding Misplaced Pages itself, have you considered publishing, perhaps with a degree of peer review, your 2000 cases? I ask since Misplaced Pages attempts to exclude unverified information, for accuracy's sake. Clearly the best verification that something is accurate is from a published source which others can confirm to themselves. Individual practitioners unpublished records or case notes, as such, aren't verifiable by the world at large until published in some form. Please see Misplaced Pages's original research, verification and source citation policies.

If you do have valuable information that is omitted, please do feel free to be bold and edit it in yourself, being mindful to keep to Misplaced Pages's standards in those policies -- you're welcome to do so, and it's much appreciated when professionals contribute of their specialist knowledge. However be aware that we also document the failed experiments, the damning reports and the studies that show no effect, as well, since they are also part of the picture. We attempt to present both sides fairly, and whilst the article doesn't do that at present (for exceptional reasons explained), it is the hope here that it will. In the meantime, you might find List of users of Neuro-linguistic programming interesting. If you have citable, sourced evidence on Fortune 500 usage, that would be valued, please add it here or to the talk page there. FT2 (Talk) 13:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me get this straight -- I want to make sure I have understood you (Ray Trevor Twine) correctly. Are you maintaining that the request for published controlled studies to support NLP's claims is a "nonsense request"? I want to make sure I have not misunderstood what your phrase "nonsense request" refers to before I continue with my response. Thank you.

Monica Pignotti, MSW

I am glad that things are starting to clear up, even though the administrators had to take such drastic measure in the end. --Dejakitty 20:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm editing from Brighton in England, I'm not a sockpuppet or a skeptic. Sockpuppeting is clearly not allowed here so I think I’ll give it a miss thank you very much. Von Bergen was my first deep introduction to NLP as I study human resource management and included it in a project. I discovered the Von Bergen’s article after googling and found it here. It got really interesting for me when I saw the various arguments on this article discussion page and they helped me get my head around pseudoscience in HRM.

I took a good look through the research I managed to collect over the last few days, and checked over the article and archives. Devilly, Eisner, Drenth, Lilenfeld, Beyerstein, Von Bergen, and Singer all write concerning the occurrence of the practice of NLP and the problems of its ill-advised adoption by self-helpers, therapists, public bodies, and businesses (Human Resource Management). The opening needs to be far clearer on this in the criticism paragraph. I havn’t got through the Levelt or Winkin papers as they will take a bit of babelfishing. I think this issue could do with better representation in the main body of criticisms too. It will explain things better why scientists are writing their criticisms about it. BrightonRock101 15:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, BrightonRock101. I greatly appreciate your contributions and agree with you. For the record, I want to state here that I live in the United States (California) and have never been to Hong Kong. My background is that I studied NLP for four years (1989-1993) in New York City and completed and was certified in the Practitioner, Master Practitioner and Trainer's trainings. I wanted to make this known so people here would realize that I am familiar with both the NLP proponent point of view and the skeptical point of view on this topic. Monica Pignotti — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs)

Hi Monica,

But you have been intouch with Headleydown in one of his other sockpuppet alias (Krishsing66) on your skeptical yahoo group. You didnt seem to know that much about NLP back then as I remember and now you're certified up to trainer level - amazing! Lee1 08:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lee1,

I don't know who Headleydown is and as for Krishsing66, he is on a list serv I'm on and we have participated on dialogues on the same thread. Are people to be labelled as sockpuppets just for participating in discussions with these people who happened to be on the same list serv who I happened to agree with? That hardly seems fair, especially since my history with NLP predates any of these discussions. I'm not sure what you're remembering about my history with NLP or what you feel I know or don't know about it, but I attained that certification 1993 from the NY Training Institute for NLP, so I know quite a bit and I have been very clear about my background in past discussions. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs)

Putting this comment in this section, since it's abbout the abbreviation - at least in the linguistics fields I know and love, NLP is used as the abbreviation for Natural Language Processing. I'd be surprised if subfields of linguistics would allow ambiguous abbreviations. Is this the case? UltraNurd 14:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Why so much of Anti NLP positioning?

I have been referring to wiki for quite some time now and I can say it provides balanced and quite good views on various topics. But I am amazed to see so much of Positioning on this particular topic and over domination of one angle of perspective.

Being in the age of information technology, this article looks like a 10th century Witch test. There are a lot of things that science cannot explain and especially one as subjective as Psychology. In such a case, is it prudent to publish something which is so thoroughly one sided on the topic.

I hope this improves over time.

That's an interesting perspective, because I see just the opposite: NLP proponents making highly misleading claims and statements, attempting to leave out or reverse edits on opposing points of view. Pointing out that unsupported claims are being made is not a "witch test".

From a behavoural psychologists perspective it is not interesting if you see JUST the opposite clearly declaring that you have no intention of 'seeing' otherwise. Ie: You are not interested. Sarcasm..

Yes NLP does have allot of false and half-hearted practitioners. All this can be cleared up in a single line "As there are allot of false 'masters' and practitioners, prospective clients are warned to cite their certificate and do research on their linage of teachers". It very much is a 'witch test' article, not only becasue it sounds like one, but also becasue it looks and tastes like one.(inside joke) Just becasue there are a few people who dont understand that what they are buying is the person and not the NLP, dosnt mean that the study of NLP is bad. This article should start off with the history(in a more enclyopedic fasion), to enforce a more "someone had to come up with all of this mumbo jumbo" perspective, rather than an "NLP is Controvercial because idiot bought some "NLP" one time and off the wrong person.(You cant BUY NLP!!!). NLP is associated with the behavours of New Age, Occultism, Scientology, Religion, Fundamentalist Christianity, Right wing Nazi's and the neo conservative party of america and england. (not to mention Tony Blair having learnt nlp-ha! - so he sounds more believable, but wont be.)" NLP's assocation with those who also practice esotericism is only because those NLP practioners know how to keep a committed open mind without deluding themselves.

I agree with you. This article is terribly written. The first 3 lines are impartial and/or irrellveant, and i wont bother to edit it incase some troll decides hes more right. Isn't Misplaced Pages meant to be an encyclopedia? Look up the top of your browser "Misplaced Pages, the 💕". Not a poor skeptics soceity. Articles should be created by those who are experts in the subject matter, such as a one who has a NLP Trainers Certificate.

No. I can't believe I have to explain this. The fact that NLP has experts or certified practitioners doesn't make its claims facts - it makes NLP itself a fact. And it is NLP itself the topic of the article. The only say the experts have on the article is on the claims, not on their meaning.

Like "certain" other disciplines, NLP conveniently only makes unfalsifiable claims - every time I read the phrase "every case is different, so the client/patient/etc. should see a specialist", my hand runs to my revolver (and now don't compare yourself to an MD. Just. Don't). And oddly, such "certain" disciplines never see any significant progress, they are handed down "from above" once and never, ever progress. In some circles "progress", in fact, seems to mean mudding up the discipline further by liberally borrowing left and right (applies to NLP as well as Reiki, to name one).

Don't expect scientific treatment for such an aggressively unscientific belief. --85.18.35.21 04:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure some trainers have tried to write an approprate article on NLP, and have been disgusted by the attitude of several more than willing 'editors'(trolls) who know nothing about NLP, have decided to just let it go... Then an appropriate skeptics section can be created for them to 'go nuts'. Becasue thats all it is. Idol skepticism which attempts at polluting the article in the name of 'buyer beware'. Prospective buyers however, SHOULD be advised that 'audio tapes' do not work as everyone is different, and what works for you dosnt work for someone else, and is not a replacement for an instructor or doctor. Logical?! The 'audio tape' phenomenon in hypnosis is even worse. But this is no reason to refute ALL of NLP. Any idiot should be able to work that out about the audio tapes. NLP is not, and never can be, a self help guide of psychology. The claim that 'NLP... adherents use primarily as an approach to personal development is utterly false. The person who wrote that was probably searching for some personal development. It started out as a modelling process. This is where NLP focus on business is, the duplication of mastery. "Learn how to learn". The 2 NLP founders who had developed a proper modelling process(by means of a background in computer science), went out and modelled Virgina Satir,

You misspelled "Vagina" --85.18.35.21 04:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

a family therapist who, at the time, was widly a publicised as being the best in therapy, because of RESULTS. Vagina Satir openly credits them in the preface of the first NLP book, as having done so well in presenting a part of herself in a book. Most people however, are refuting the Ericksonian techniques modelled in NLP becasue its 'airy, fairy'. Well it is! But it makes you think. Some practioners however, never learn its purpose or even when to use it appropriatly. Used together and appropriate times, any qualified NLP practitioner knows that they become harmonious to acheive the clients desired outcome of the session. NLP is most useful as an adaptive process which guides an already qualified therapist or-the-like the ability to adapt to the individual client getting straight at the problem. I would like to see this article complelty re-written. Please consult those who are on Start a thread like "Wiki and NLP" or something.

Steve Hassan Reference Possibly Misleading

I have known Steve Hassan for 17 years and have worked with him on a number of exit counselling cases (he does not wish to be called a "deprogrammer" so that part needs to be changed). The portrayal of his views on NLP in this article seem misleading and strongly imply that he actively endorses it and built his model of exit counseling centered around NLP when this is not the case. As he states in his book (I will add this reference with a direct quote to the article) he studied NLP in the early 80s but he has concerns, not only about the fact it is being used by cult leaders, but also by the way NLP is being marketed. What he said was that he went back and studied some of NLPs sources (e.g., Satir, Baetson, Erickson, etc.) and is now basing his work on those people, and others who had nothing to do with NLP. To make this more objective, perhaps the best way to resolve this would be to directly quote what Hassan actually wrote. I have his book and will look up the exact quote, cite it and put it into the article.

It's been removed. --Woohookitty 09:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

"Users of NLP" section

I removed the entire section for a number of reasons. First of all, it sounded promotional. I have no problem with a short paragraph stating that many organizations use NLP. But what was there was basically promotional material. And it was attracting the kind of POV remarks that we need to avoid here. --Woohookitty 09:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree, Woohookitty. I noticed that after you did this, someone added back in the sentence in the introduction about people and "credible" professional bodies that endorse NLP, which I found to be misleading and and also sounded like promotional material. The fact is that the two top major psychological professional bodies in the US (APA and APS) do not endorse NLP, which will not be found on the APA's list of empirically supported treatments. It is simply not accurate to state NLP has widespread professional acceptance, especially from the psychology profession. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs)

There are some counter-examples to this. A small number of organisations promote professional standards in NLP, some notable examples include EANLPt, a European wide accrediting organisation (EWAO) within the European Association for Psychotherapy (EAP), and the Graduate Certificate in Neuro-linguistic Programming (Government accredited qualification in Australia). There are atleast some credible bodies that endorse professional standards. We atleast need to make a distinction between the unqualified practitioners with little or no training, and those who have had at least 6 months full time postgraduate training. --Comaze 02:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If you name and cite the specific organizations, I don't have a problem with that. What I initially objected to as misleading was generalized statements such as the one that was previously there that would give the reader a general impression that NLP has widespread acceptance from mainstream professional bodies when that is not the case. The fact is that the main psychological professional body in the US, the APA does not endorse NLP, nor does it include NLP on the list they keep of empirically supported treatments. It is not surprising that NLP organizations endorse NLP. Psychologist Gerald Rosen (see Journal of Clinical Psychology Oct 2001) has called this type of self-reference and echo attribution. The word "credible" is subjective -- credible to whom? Just because an NLP organization has managed to get in politically enough in some countries to have a government sponsored accrediting agency does not necessarily mean that it is credible with mainstream professional psychologists -- again, it begs the question, credible to whom. That's why I objected to the generalized statement that previously existed. Now that you've given specifics, I have no objection to that although this entire discussion could be considered an argumentum ad verecundium (argument from authority) rather than a factual statement about NLP so my preference would be not to have it at all. But if you must and the moderators here accept it, then I much prefer your current version --Monica Pignotti MonicaPignotti 17:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Folks

I'm extremely frustrated with this article. In the last 2-3 weeks, it seems to have gotten worse. It now reads like a promo booklet. Honestly, if this continues, I'm going to take this article off of my WL and just give up. No one here seems to know how to write a Misplaced Pages article. Why do we have all of this bold? We're not here to be "eye catching", which is the only reason for all of this bold. We have sections that repeat other sections. We have block quotes with almost no context. As I've said many times, this is NOT a research paper. We're not here to make arguments. I don't know if people just don't want to listen or what, but frankly, I've had enough of all of it. I'm about ready to say that this is a lost cause and leave you all at it until you get an admin involves that isn't as nice and tolerant as me and Voice. Sorry for the negativity, but it's frustrating to leave a bad article...come back 2 weeks later and somehow it's worse. I don't know what to say. --Woohookitty 09:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

And if you guys want examples, the entire pre-suppositional beliefs section is a mess. For one thing, pre-suppositional is not defined until after it leads a section, which frankly, is kind of dumb. It's mentioned in the sections before ("Foundational assumptions"), but it isn't defined there. I just get so frustrated with you folks. We are writing this for the average person, not for college students. My girlfriend has a masters degree and yet I asked her what pre-suppositional meant and she had no idea. And this is just one small example. There are numerous others where it's written for college educated people, but you cannot write it like that. Most of the readership is not going to be college educated. You need to write it for the average person. I don't know. Maybe the users involved in this article don't know what that means. The other problem with the pre-suppositional section is that it's way way way too long. There has to be a way to truncate some of those sections so they can fit together. Again, we're here to explain things to regular users, not to get into so much detail--Woohookitty 09:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Comaze and Greg are looking into that section. I've left it alone on the basis "too many cooks". Much of it's a duplicate of the sub-article Principles of NLP, so all that should be needed (as I've stated above) is to synchronize the two so no cites are lost, then summarize it all in this article with a link to that one. Beyond that, I've left that section well alone. Is help needed there? FT2 00:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I started rewritting that section, and Greg was assisting, but he's been unavailable for the last few weeks. I would like to cut most of the pre-suppositional beliefs and incorporate it into the Historical background. The different ideas can be introduced, and those sections could be linked to other pages if people want more technical description. I'll post what I've done shortly.. --Comaze 11:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've done my best to fix up the presuppositional beliefs section. This needs some more work. Actually the entire article needs alot of work. Using the historical background as a framework for introducting the various ideas and influences in NLP would be useful. --Comaze 14:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot shorter, haven't read in depth but shorter has to be good. It was a ridiculous length before. FT2 02:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Separately, in response to Woohoo's concerns above, I have been looking at the NLP article overall. I'll take some time to try and put it into a decent shape. Here are some of the issues I'm aware of:

1. The critical view is a problem. We don't know in any trustworthy sense what it is, we only know it exists.

   • This is because the previous sock/meatpuppet group (who are undoubtedly still hanging round) freely played around with and misrepresented the findings of those who did express criticism for fun, so in fact we do not know how representative the 'critical' quotes we have are of the actual sources. In many cases we find they are not. So we have a problem in that we know there is a critical side, but we don't know its fair representation. We don't know if the quotes we have are honest or representative quotes that neutrally sum up the views of the authors, nor how influential those views are. Probably nobody does, it's still being explored.
   • The best we can do is state this, and characterize what we do know. What we do know is most researchers, when examined, state that it is not yet proven, or they want more research to draw conclusions. Others often show weak-positive or weak-supportive views. I'd say that past aside, that has to be the starting point because that at least is what we can be sure of.
   • We could, perhaps, be sure of more... if those warring for that view hadn't also freely exaggerated and faked it too. It leaves one not knowing whether anything they said was more than a fringe view by fanatics, supported by extremely selective citations. When one looks at usage and other research it seems to undermine the claims that the sock-group presented.

2. The article is grossly mis-structured, as Woohoo suggests. It doesn't describe or characterize NLP at all well, it's basically become a mangled intro, some history, some basic concepts, some disorganized cites being used to prove points on both sides, and 20 kinds of criticism. That might be what HeadleyDown wanted. But it's not a neutral representation in the WP:NPOV sense.
3. The article, perhaps in response to past vandalism and POV warring, has become slanted in a different non-wikipedian way, ie "is it pseudoscience or isnt it". Actually characterizing the subject neutrally seems to have mostly fallen by the wayside. I think a rewrite's in order, using such material as is verifiable ... and bearing in mind the antics of the sock team, in this context verifiable means not just that the quote exists, but that it is a valid, fair, and representative representation of the author's views.

To that end I want to try and REWRITE what we have into a decent form, and then add appropriate cites and check it's sensibly balanced. I've drawn the main content areas from the articles and template, on the basis those are probably the ones most needing explaining, and the focus is to explain what the core methods and concepts are about, not arcane theory. We can debate after whether something like rapport is a "principle" or a "presupposition" or a "working approach", or if it makes sense to divide these. But right now we have not got a decent article, the fine tuning can be done later. The structure I'm thinking of is something like this:

• Intro
• What is NLP (to define contents)
• History of NLP

• Influences

• Principles of NLP

• Eg touching upon:
• Subjectivity (map territory, subjective world view, etc)
• Meaning and context in communication (meaning of communication=response, the process of making sense of meaning, etc)
• Intent (positive intent, strategies as means to meet them, secondary gain, cosncious/unconscious)
• Ecology
• (ie not just a list of definitions, more encyclopedic, a cited discussion of main areas)

• NLP concepts and methods

• Current concepts

• Representational systems and submodalities
• Language patterns
• Strategies
• Perceptual positions
• Reframing
• Anchoring
• Modeling

• Old or outdated concepts
• Unified models (various approaches)
• Working methods

• Rapport
• Outcome orientation
• Feedback and flexibility

• Perspectives on NLP

• Nature of NLP (science? engineering? placebo?)
• NLP and philosophy (empiricism, cultural relativity, etc)
• NLP as a discipline (promotion or over promotion, control or lack of control, bodies addressing these)
• Applications
• Controversies

• Evaluating NLP

• Researching NLP (research, research issues, aspects worth considering when researching)
• Scientific view (NLP and linguistics, neuroscience, etc)
• Usage
• Skeptical view

• See also
• External links
• References

That's what I'll work towards unless anyone has a good reason otherwise. (A desire to add POV warring by any party is probably not a good reason, I should add). If anyone wants to modify or add to it please comment below. The aim is to get a decent 1st draft article. FT2 02:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In terms of organising the article, what I attempted was to merge the history with the principles of NLP. The historical background provides a framework in which to introduce the various topics and link to the subarticles for more detail. When describing modeling, we can introduce the early models and how they influenced the meta model. This can lead into how Gregory Bateson got involved and his influence on the co-founders and the field (ecology, map/territory). For example, when describing Erickson's influence we can introduce rapport, metaphor, pacing and leading, as well as conscious/unconscious mind and how it is used in NLP. To me, this seems logical and consistent with the literature.

That makes sense as one approach. The question is, do people want a long narrative that covers both history and practice, or do they want the two separated somewhat? I'd be more inclined to do part of what you suggest which works well, the people and their influences. But the principles can probably be better summarized in a separate section since I'm thinking people will want to be able to read "what's NLP about" and "what are its principles" separate from "how did it come about". For me those are very different subjects. A fuller "one stream" narrative approach might not be so good for this purpose. But we can certainly do as you suggest and name briefly the areas they influenced, that sounds sensible. Just not in depth. FT2 03:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The skeptics, science and anti-cult theorists sections really needs some work to improve the style, group similar views, to fairly characterise the biases of the various authors and to introduce some counter-arguments. --Comaze 03:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Its worse than that. We don't actually have any trustworthy information on the skeptical view, since its proponents faked information (or its representation) as freely as they chose. So we have the names of papers or authors, and that they criticized. but many of them that was one part of a balanced view, and we don't know what a balanced view would say. Beyond that, we don't know much at all. We need copies of those authors papers, to assess a more honest take on their words, since right now almost no cite on that front is fully trustworthy. Every one I looked at and checked, was a dubious interpretation somewhere. The other thing is, its a critical section, of an overall article. So it needs to say what it says, but the present length and verbosity is a bit questionable, just like other parts are too long too. FT2 03:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I've emailed you my summary of the criticism of NLP. Its based on a summary of the academic literature. Feel free to edit it, or incorporate it into what you're working on. --Comaze 06:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I believe there is a pretty serious censorship effort going on here by NLP proponents. Looking at the quality of the information, the only work that needs doing is to properly support the reliable non critical information and make it brief and clear. That "should" be easy if you are editing legitimately as there is not much reliable information among the dross. A lot of it just needs to be cut. The criticisms are accurate and well supported according to my own collection of literature and I can see it is all supported using verifiable form (page numbers and years of publication). So wanting to remove it on the basis that some proponents don't have access to the literature is certainly evidence of censorship. I think this article needs quite a lot more clearer writing, and it does seem to be far too promo recently. I know the general subject of NLP and I can see why using NLP literature will be confusing to any reader. Btw I'm editing from Yorkshire so I hope you don't mind me speaking my mind. I noticed the opening has been changed a lot in the last several weeks. There used to be a line in the first paragraph that said NLP uses visualization, trance states, rituals and a few others. That was about the clearest line in the opening. It really needs to be there. The criticism also needs to be clearer in the opening. I have no idea what happened to it, but there was a perfectly good criticism paragraph there only a few weeks ago that cited lots of scientific articles in a straight and encyclopedic manner. So the opening is really in need of better balance after the NLP people have censored the core of the criticisms. Saying "On the other hand" is totally argumentative and biased and is clearly an NLP way of trying to promote NLP by testimonial as most of that testimonial comes from NLP promotional materaial btw. There is certainly a lot of concern from scientists over the promotion of NLP in psychology bodies and in general. A large part of the criticisms have been removed by NLP proponents to suit their own agenda. I noticed that NLP adherents are doing their best to present a selective view. Critics (clinical psychologists especially) say that NLP is promoted in some psychology bodies, and they believe it shouldn't be. NLP is definitely not supported empirically in theory or in practice, and I know it appears in reliable books about pseudoscience as an example of pseudoscience. Science minded psychologists are therefore very concerned about people and bodies being hoodwinked into adopting it. So how about the adherents stop the censorship effort as it will undoubtedly cause a lot of conflict as I can see it has in the past. 62.25.106.209 07:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree regarding attempted censorship. The references to the critical pieces were properly cited and accurate and just because an NLP supporter is of the opinion that they are not and interpret what was written in a different way, is no reason to hold such material to a different standard than any other material on Misplaced Pages (e.g. people who disagree needing copies of the citations to read what was said).--MonicaPignotti 17:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, the reason for this is that Misplaced Pages information should be verifiable. Sometimes that's so easy as to be allowed by default. Sometimes a quote or a cite is enough. In this case though, among the many other helpful things HeadleyDown did, was forgery and misrepresentation of otherwise valid research. In other words, valid research was itself mis-cited or deliberately misrepresented, or its sources given fraudlent academic credentials. For this reason, as with many other aspects of this subject, HeadleyDown did the whole subject a disservice (all done for "fun" and because it was "highly amusing" as he put it), because now it is not possible to trust even that correctly quoted mini-cites from certain sources actually represent the authors' real views in certain areas. Again, same refrain, feel free to vent at HeadleyDown, and see my comment above to Comaze about the predictable consequences. In particular, demand for higher standards of verification are a usual predictable consequence of academic fraud in any academic field I'm aware of. FT2 17:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There criticism can be organised a few broad sections.

• The lack of support in the psychological and experimental literature, the research mainly focuses the eye movement model.
• Bandler and Grinder had a preference for experience first, and immersion in the world of their models, they have been quoted as saying that they were not interested in the truth - questions are rasied over this anti-theoretical stance. Dilts et al and others in the development group clearly have attempted to underpin NLP with theory. The presuppositions were also criticised and questions raised over the reliance of over simplified or outdated theory. Due to its open access, there were also questions raise over NLP use for manipulation, although this is at odds with the purported systemic nature of NLP.
• The NLP rhetoric that promotes empirical improvement of its models, is also questioned because the field generally does not encourage critical review of techniques and models. And evidence for efficacy of training, its models and practices are most often testimonial.

--Comaze 07:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. As I understand it, the main objection critics/skeptics/evidence based psychologists have to NLP is the first point you mention, the lack of evidential support in the literature (peer reviewed journals) in the form of well-designed published studies. But also a key point of the criticism is the fact that claims and promotions have been made for cures of conditions such as phobias that are based on anecdotal reports, rather than research evidence -- in other words, making claims that go beyond the data--MonicaPignotti 17:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If everyone's happy with Comaze's suggestions as a broad approach, shall I adopt it into the version described above when I get onto "evaluating NLP"? I've already included much of these under "controversies" , but I'm happy to adopt that as a checklist of the main formal criticisms to discuss, if that's what it is.

Also, to keep folks updated on the draft referred to above, the main "controversies" I've identified and added into the draft under that section are: "Cult use", "Mass marketing and unethical promotion", and "Lack of critical self-evaluation". I'd be willing to add "questionable efficacy" as a "controversy" if it was needed, except I think by the time "evaluation of NLP" is done from various perspectives, that'll be answered there more properly (because that issue is more about research, evaluation methods and validity of conclusions). It's looking good, I think. FT2 21:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Meatpuppet / sockpuppet group

Various users and editors, from mentors down to everyday Wikipedians, have tried to be civil and assume good faith. Although brief, I too will be civil in my comment. However it's very likely that good faith is questionable given visible activity:

Pack it in. You know who you are. So, with a very high probability, do we.

This ring has been blocked from Misplaced Pages, and is editing in breach of policy and rulings.

A chorus of self-agreeing vandal socks/meats, is not what Misplaced Pages is about.

This applies to edits on the NLP article, talk page, and related articles, from:

• MonicaPignotti (talk · contribs)
• BrightonRock101 (talk · contribs)
• 62.25.106.209 (talk · contribs)

Thank you. FT2 11:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never made any secret of who I am. As you can see, I use my real name here. This name calling (e.g."chorus of self-agreeing vandal socks/meats")sounds like an ad hominem attack to me and does not sound civil at all to me. I'm new here and just getting used to the system, so if I did something technically wrong, I apologize -- I'm still learning so I hope you will in keeping with Misplaced Pages, assume good faith (your statement sounds to me like you have assumed the worst about me). That being said, I can assure you that the assessment I made of NLP was made on my own, following my own experience training in it for four years along with my knowledge and expertise in controversial novel therapeutic approaches. I am puzzled as to why you feel that just because I happed to have agreed with certain others, I am in some sort of sock puppet ring. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm sorry to have to say that this sounds to me like another attempt to suppress criticism.--MonicaPignotti 17:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The "something technically wrong" is, that associates of the same blocked meat/sock group are (as I understand it) blocked from this article. That's indifferent whether they are the same person or different people, editing of their own free will or actually an existing blocked editor. This may seem unfair or not, but you may wish to thank the existing sock/meat team for creating that condition. That condition now exists. It's known as messing things up for your successors. Sources for this statement:

• Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry which states that meatpuppets and sockpuppets under these circumstances are usually treated alike,
• WP:RFArb and subsequent blocks and administrator decisions, which ruled that the existing ring of socks, meats and associates (whether the same or different people) is to be blocked on sight.

This does not prohibit you from editing or contributing to other (non-NLP) articles on other topics. But there is no question that by every standard I am aware of, the "MonicaPignotti" account is a sock or meatpuppet of blocked user HeadleyDown in this context, and as such, that really is simply, the way it goes. With great civility but I am sure you will understand, and you will express your unhappiness to HeadleyDown (if you are in fact a different person). FT2 21:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Your statement that I am a "sock or meatpuppet of a blocked user" is without any basis. It doesn't make sense to me that just because I happened to have agreed with some of what was said by a banned user makes me one. If that is true, then that would mean that anyone with a critical view on NLP would be thus classified as agreeing with meat puppets and blocked from editing this article but as far as I know I have not been blocked. I do not see how the fact that I participated on a list serv where someone discussed the situation here is proof that I came here to do that person's bidding. That is not the case. I speak only for myself and have my own opinions on this topic--MonicaPignotti 19:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

With great courtesy, re-read the definition on WP:SOCK and understand that being an associate, or possibly engaging in debate due to a connection with a known meat/sock group is, in itself, a definition of meat puppetry. As user:Woohookitty said, we are open to critical views. Just not those which may be part of the HK sock/meat ring. It doesn't matter whether they are sockpuppets or genuine contributors -- that is part of the definition of meatpuppetry. As said above, for a year, HeadleyDown, for fun, seriously damaged this article and causes stress to bona fide editors. He took great vindictive pleasure in running his sock ring, uncaring as to the damage, upset and confusion it caused. The logical consequence of that is similar to "crying wolf": - those who appear to be or may be socks or meats will tend to be blocked too. The rapid blocking of edits to NLP topics, from anyone with any prospective connection (even if not "proven"), is completely foreseeable under the rules he himself willfully chose to break, and is in line both with user:David Gerard's advice to the Mentors appointed by Arbcom, and with the Arbcom rulings he himself chose to cause to be invoked by his deliberate vandalism and policy breaches over that time. If these results trouble you, then sadly, venting at HeadleyDown (if he is a separate person) would be your logical next step. As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, this does seem to be the position, and is entirely due to the past year's actions. If I can help in any other way then of course that's my pleasure, let me know. FT2 20:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi All. Monica, I want to apologise for my earlier posting to you. However, you should realise that this page has been subject to an extremely prolonged and vicious edit war maintained by one person using a huge range of scokpuppets/meatpuppets. In my view, the whole thing was unneccesary and came about through a determination to split everything and everyone ito pro/anti NLP groups. Without the assumption of bad faith of his/her behalf, it need not have arisen. Most editors here would be more than happy to see a fair and balanced critique of NLP as part of the article. What nobody wants except the sockpuppet master is a paranoid slur campaign based on an ill informed POV leading to a crap article.

Unfortunately, the aftermath of all this is what you have walked into, and undoubtedly at the behest of Headleydown (who is also KrishSingh66 and about fifty other socks) who has proved him/herself to be completey untrustworthy and willing to bend all rules and lie to get his POV across. In the course of trying to investigate the history and source of those contributions, I came across him trying to enlist people in the yahoo group of which you are a member

This article really needs someone to represent the critical viewpoint. It really needs someone who doesnt assume bad faith though, and credits other editors with some intelligence and treats them with respect as human beings. I personally would be very happy to have an open critical viewpoint involved as I too have some NLP background and plenty of questions about aspects of its theory, practice and application. If all this could be done in an atmosphere of mutual co-operation the article would be all the better for it. Lee1 08:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason why that couldn't be the case. It has never been my intent to slam anyone personally or denigrate anyone's intelligence or intentions.--MonicaPignotti 19:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to hold off criticism for now till article clean-up is completed. This article is still too long and lots of details can be transfered to other sub-pages. --Dejakitty 17:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello FT2. I have no idea who these other editors are, I don't know you, or Woohookitty, and I really don't think it matters to me as an editor. I have no connection whatsoever to any kind of skeptic society or meatpuppet circuit. I do have lots of literature on NLP though, and I would like to correct some pretty big problems in the article. My subject does make me critical of NLP because I am coming from a cognitive/social scientific background. I will maintain the critical side perfectly within the criticisms of NLP as the literature states. 80.189.81.19 10:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

For various reasons, summarized above, I find myself able to be civil, but unable to assume good faith in considering the above. FT2 12:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Reconstruct of article

As discussed above, the article reconstruct is coming on well.

An article on Misplaced Pages starts by explaining the field itself. So the bulk of the reconstructed article is an explanation (without judgement) of what NLP is. Misplaced Pages isn't a book, so it will explain but leave a lot of detail out. However there's still a lot to cover so it will take a fair bit of space to do so.

A major issue with previous articles on NLP is that it's a methodology within a philosophy/worldview. I've given the worldview its own section which has worked really well. I've also tried to write an effective summary article, not just list jargon and soundbites. About 3/4 of the sections are written so far, so it's finally come together nicely. There's quite a lot of footnoted material, as opposed to "just cites". The current outline looks something like this:

1. Intro (what it is, where it came from/what it's about, how it's seen)
   • 1st para -- NLP studies and models how people perceive their life and how to work with the underlying cognitive and emotional processes at a practical level. (That's what NLP *is about*). It has a broad structure. List some common mainstream areas used.
   • 2nd para -- *Based* on therapist models, B&G *concluded* that self taught skills and approaches were responsible for their abilities, that these could be summarized and passed on, and that inner experience could be known via behaviors rather than via a theory. Result was called "NLP", meaning the neuro/language/programs which seemed influential.
   • 3rd para -- as at present
2. Overview of NLP
   • Definition and scope of NLP
     (What NLP is, its aims and approaches, how it views humans and human reality, what its training is about and what it's focussed upon)
   • Meaning of term "Neuro-linguistic programming"
   • Historical background of NLP
   • Influences
   • Self-descriptions and quotes
   • No one "correct version" of NLP
3. NLP attitudes and worldview
   • NLP's world view
     (Subjective view, Human nature (unconscious mind, learning, etc), Systems view, Meaning and context in communication, Form and content, present/future orientation)
   • Examples of some common aphorisms (sayings, principles, presuppositions; bulletted only)
4. NLP concepts and methods
   • Basic structural concepts
     (Representational systems and submodalities, Language patterns, Strategies, Perceptual positions, Reframing, Anchoring, Modelling, Other (chunking, timeline, logical levels etc), Outdated concepts)
   • Working approaches and methods
     (Strategic / outcome oriented, Rapport, Elegance, Feedback and flexibility, Ecology and ethics (including misuse), NLP's approach to clinical conditions)
   • Examples
     (A handful of basic techniques named and described, 1 or 2 lines each - V/K, swish, reframe, etc)
5. NLP as a field of knowledge
   • Taxonomy (classification) and connected subjects
     (Where NLP fits into human knowledge)
   • NLP as a discipline
     (Conduct and standards supervision, professional bodies, training structure... and issues concerning the frequent lack of these)
   • Distribution and applications
     (How NLP is encountered and distributed, including mainstream and dubious approaches)
   • Controversies
     (Cult use, Mass marketing and unethical promotion, Lack of critical self-evaluation)
6. Evaluating NLP
   • Researching NLP
   • Scientific view
   • Users' anecdotal views
   • Skeptical view
     (Skeptics concerns that NLP – at least, as commonly presented – shares too many features with other pseudoscientific subjects for comfort: - New Age, own terminology, either poorly explained or psychobabble, not yet positively accepted by consensus of major bodies of clinical or neurological scientists, frequently marketed and applied commercially in dubious or 'fringe' styles)
7. See also
8. External links
9. References

FT2 02:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Polymath?

Does Gregory Bateson really deserve to be called a "polymath"? His Misplaced Pages entry describes him as "anthropologist, social scientist, linguist and cyberneticist," and the first three are related soft-sciences at best, and the fourth is not much better. I do not think that there is any way that he merits being called a polymath.Hi There 21:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Not convinced. We'd need to research more to check. But I don't see linguistics and anthropology as "related" very much, nor cybernetics. So thats at least 3 distinct fields he was acknowledged in: anthropology/social sciences, linguistics, and cybernetics. Those don't seem to overlap at all strongly. So I'm tempted to put the term back in, unless its too strong a term for this. Thoughts? FT2 06:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Social_scientist states "The social sciences are groups of academic disciplines that study the human aspects of the world......Social scientists engage in research and theorize about both aggregate and individual behaviors." Merely changing this to read "The linguistics is an academic discipline that studies certain human aspects of the world......Linguists engage in research and theorize about both aggregate and individual behaviors" gives us a fairly good definition of linguistics. This is appropriate because linguistics is, after all, a field that is properly a part of the social sciences. Changing "social sciences" or "linguistics" to "anthropology" likewise gives us a fairly good definition of anthropology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Anthropology states that "Anthropology... consists of the study of humanity (see genus Homo). It is holistic in two senses: it is concerned with all humans at all times and with all dimensions of humanity. Anthropology is traditionally distinguished from other disciplines by its emphasis on cultural relativity, in-depth examination of context, and cross-cultural comparisons." You could replace "anthropology" by the word "linguistics" and have a fairly good definition of many aspects of linguistics. If you replace "anthropology" with "various fields of social science" you get a servieable definition of those various fields.

Anthropology (and ethnology) and linguistics are both social sciences, and both are concerned with human behaviour; although linguistics confines its study to a narrower area but an area, nonetheless, that is contained in or at the very least overlaps anthropology and is, more broadly, contained within the social sciences. Therefore, "three fields" in which Bateson worked should be seen as related.

Let us now look at the fourth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Cybernetics tells us the following: "...cybernetics is the study of systems and control in an abstracted sense - that is, it is not grounded in any one empirical field... cybernetics has the scope and rigor to encompass the human social interactions of agreement and collaboration that, after all, require goals and feedback to attain..." Or in other words, it is a method of analyzing systems amongst which systems can be included human social interactions. (The cited article has an extensive but certainly incomplete list of fields in which cybernetics can applied, including many social sciences.) http://www.asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/definitions.htm quotes Bateson himself as describing cybernetics as "the study of form and pattern" and that is a decription that is applicable to linguistics, to anthropology, to social science, and in fact to ALL sciences both hard and soft. Cybernetics in this case can be seen as part of his approach to the social sciences and not necessarily something separate and apart from it. It can also be seen as part of his approach to his (seemingly strictly behaviouralist) view of schizophrenia, the "double-bind" most probably being a situation where an action on the part of the subject is not met with a consist response (or in cybernetic terms, feedback) from the environment or other agents in the environment. In this case, not only is his cybernetic interest part of his other social science interests, but his "psychiatric" theories are also an outgrowth of his approach to analyzing human society and interaction.

So it seems, to me, at any rate, that all his areas of study and research are related and overlapping.

I must add that I have no intention here of criticizing his work - work with which I am not familiar; my only issue is with the term "polymath" which I do not believe fits him at all. Although to be fair, I am participating in a discussion of what is and is not a polymath on the WP "Polymath" and "List of Polymaths" articles. My idea of a polymath is Alexanxer von Humboldt (http://en.wikipedia.org/Alexander_von_Humboldt and please to note a section of this article entitled "Universal Genius".)

Hi There 15:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Understood. But not sure I agree the logic. The fact that 2 subjects can both be described in a similar template is not really evidence that they are at all similar. I don;t feel that "The linguistics is an academic discipline that studies certain human aspects of the world......Linguists engage in research and theorize about both aggregate and individual behaviors" is a good definition of linguistics, which is about how language is used, manipulated and created, rather than human society. Although they interact, they don't much overlap, and a linguist will not in general be an anthropologist and vice-versa. Bateson was a recognized scholar in 3 pretty much completely different fields -- human society and culture, language development and structures and language families, and information systems and control mechanisms. Those seem 3 completely different areas. Interaction doesn't really mean similarity, it just means he used his knowledge from field A in studying field B as well. Thoughts?

Clearing problems in article?

Hello Woohookitty. You're comments;

• It seems to have gotten worse. It now reads like a promo booklet. Why do we have all of this bold? We're not here to be "eye catching", which is the only reason for all of this bold. As I've said many times, this is NOT a research paper. We're not here to make arguments.

• Sections that repeat other sections.

• Block quotes with almost no context.

I see what you say Woohookitty. Its part organization of the paragraphs and part the writing. I have just finished an English writing course and I think I can do a better job as of now. Hylas Chung 08:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I tried to clear the redundant text. There is more I will do. The citations need more filling. I don't understand why there is philosophy and self declared scope. NLP is not a person so the lines should not be written like NLP is a thinking thing. I have other articles to work on and I will do more here soon. Hylas Chung 08:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Please see user:Woohookitty's comment above, of 10:43, 9 June 2006:

"No, you don't get what's happening here. We want critics. We just don't want more meatpuppets that have come here via the University of Hong Kong skeptics club"

and my various comments to other sock/meatpuppets of HeadleyDown. These apply equally to you too.

• Before: "Beyerstein, Lilienfeld and Eisner express concern over the verification of certain aspects of NLP."
• After: "Beyerstein, Lilienfeld and Eisner are concerned about ... NLP spreading pseudoscientific or misleading ideas...."

I've reverted the edits. There is far more duplication of these ideas, if duplication is a concern, than bona fide explanation of NLP itself. Please read my and Woohookitty's comments above, both to you and others. Thanks. FT2 10:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

FT2. Woohookitty said that you can not ban all Hong Kong citizens from editing the article.

Here are Woohookitty's words to me: "HongKong, that is a gross overstatement. Those folks who belong to the skeptics club of the University of Hong Kong are the ones getting blocked because they are meatpuppets of each other. Not every citizen of Hong Kong is being blocked. --Woohookitty(meow)" 10:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

FT2. I live in Tsim Sha Tsui Hong Kong. I am not in any skeptic society. I am not at the University of Hong Kong. I am a bona fide editor. I can edit. I make very good edits. I can work with good editors. My edits agree with Woohookitty and his suggestions. You reverted my good edits. Now the article is again more promo. The article needs work. There have been no good changes in more than a month. The main body needs organization and changes. I can make the article better very easy. I can make the article less promo and I can clear away the essay type argument. The opening needs summary style writing just as WP:summary style says. Hylas Chung 08:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

FT2. This version is better:

Woohookitty suggested that the essay style is bad. I took away the line on credible bodies worldwide. It is your original research. I will work on the main body of NLP. NPOV style can be added to clear and explain the NLP. It is easy to describe. Just simple statements of what NLP people do. Fair does not mean equal. Fair should say what NLP simply is. Good knowledge about the findings of NLP make it fair. This article can be written much more clearly. Hylas Chung 08:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Look at the evidence. Its easy to see: . NLP is thought to be pseudoscience. So scientists say it should not be promoted like science. That is the criticism. That is right for summary style opening. Hylas Chung 09:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Those words were to you, not people in general, as you know. Meatpuppetry on this article associated in any way or shape with HeadleyDown is not allowed. Thats what comes of vandalism, I suppose. See above for comments, and note that Woohookitty's decision stands as far as I can see. FT2 09:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

FT2. I am a bona fide editor. I will wait for Usercheck to verify. Hylas Chung 01:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

FT2. Woohookitty has given a new reply to me on my talkpage. You can check it. I will wait and not edit the article until this is sorted out. I need more clear advice from outside source. Hylas Chung 03:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello FT2. I decided I will not edit the article. Woohookitty is helpful. You have no evidence or right to be calling me a puppet. The checkuser was inconclusive. I have many other articles to edit. This article will have to be edited by other bona fide editors.Hylas Chung 04:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Unprotection

I noticed that this article has been unprotected. Please watch this article closely as it has been prone to madness in the past. --Woohookitty 12:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning up Criticism

I made a first stab at reordering the arguments in the "Criticism" section, bringing together all of the arguments on the basis of science, of mainstream psychotherapy, of religion, etc. Where it was possible, I consolidated various citations from the same author into one paragraph. There's a lot more to do along these lines! -- Shunpiker 19:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello I have been on this page before. Some may say iam for NLP and a fanatic. Well there are shades of grey in there. I am glad Headley is gone, nothing personal. My point really is without getting into all the politics that Since the world began there has been ignorance toward particular avenues. One would be a cave that a cave man clan would not enter because some guy claimed to be a wise man said there was evil in there. The clan would never find out and would never enter so they would never really know but the shaman's word is taken as real. The wikipedia is a trusted source editted by many people with valuable information that can enrich peoples lives and for those who just peruse and do not edit may make the distinction thatthis article has portrayed NLP as crappy and not worth investigating. They may stop there and not really know. Another example is if someone tells me "hey that guy over there is an idiot don't talk to him, You wont like him trust me". How do they know? I could become good friends with that guy whereas if I had listenned to my other friend I think I start becoming a sheep. Baaaaah! I don't read movie reviews either. So please keep the wikipedia aplace of learning. Thank you

Maybe you should Neuro-linguistically program yourself for better English. --Gigantic Killerdong 20:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

HI. I thought I'd find a factual page here. Theres a lot of unsupported claims tho. The scientific looking stuff with citations looks really good, but there are some very hypie lines that either don't have support from authors, or it looks like someones presenting their own view using a bunch of testimonials. JM

A bunch of testimonials... you mean like every pro-NLP source? Snicker. --Gigantic Killerdong 20:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

NLP and suicide

The links between the study of NLP and elevated suicide rates hasn't been mentioned at any point. NLP is shortly going to be banned along with Scientology and a bunch of similar cult/con artist types in Ireland. I know of a number of cases where Scientologists drained sick people of their cash and then removed them from treatment until they were so weakened that even with medical care they died. NLP 'trainers' have trained a lot of people who go on to commit suicide shortly after leaving the course. They would debate that they train a lot of people who are so called 'three time losers' but if that were the case there wouldn't be a task force assigned to their investigation.

NLPs close relationship to hypnotism and ease of use by con artists has led to many tragedies and any number of criminal cases. Hopefully the ban in Ireland can be extended to the EU and the Scientologists will soon follow. 83.70.226.196 00:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thats a bunch of CRAP! There is no evidence for NLP being banned in Ireland. You havn't shown any reference or date on your dirty allegation. The evidence is opposite to what you say. NLP is the most flexible and advanced positive psychology in existence. I seriously doubt that you can find any source to back up your dubious claim. D.Boyle.

NLP has its problems, but there's no evidence connecting it with suicide. For example, this NLP devotee has a bunch of notes about suicide prevention.Yakuman 17:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Update article with latest research

I've just added a link to the NLP Research Centre featuring a recent review of the NLP literature to date. I had some involvement with the technical side of building the database. But the actually research was completed by a researcher in cognitive science. At the same time I have removed some external links to sites that did not contain any referenced; unreferenced articles are inherently unreliable. I'd like to suggest that we look to reduce the number of references on this page and replace with scholarly references. It might be a good idea to add a few more links to the industry associations. Also, are all those "See Also" links necessary; many are only barely related to NLP. --Comaze 08:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe there is a chance that experts and researchers might expand the NLP and science article? Eli the Barrow-boy 20:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like the science section says it all. Its an unscientific development. If anything, the claims in the NLP explanation sections above need better refs. Why is there so much good refs in the science and criticism section, but hardly any in the NLP claims sections? When I compare with other psychological articles on wikipedia, this one seems to be very un-backed-up in its claims. Alan Barnet

Alan. There are differing "NLP claims" or in NPOV terms, multiple definitions of NLP. Some versions are more like folk psychology than others. Preference should be given to scholarly sources in summarising the various definitions of NLP and its uses. Some applications have limited support in the academic literature. While NLP has become popular in education and management training, some psychologists have raised concerns about the lack of scientific support. Perhaps the focus of the topic "NLP and science" would probably best be described as "theoretical basis of NLP" then we could go into the scientific, psychological or experimental basis, or its lack thereof. --Comaze 00:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like a nonstarter Comaze. Theres no claimed theoretical basis to it apart from how the science measurements look at it and they pretty quickly say it doesnt work at all. I would stick with what scientific knowledge says about it. But just say what the claims are earlier. I got some books on NLP from the university library and they certainly dont make claims like normal psych books. It needs framing properly. Say what the science papers say about its claims, then list the claims. Then show the results of the testing. Now it looks like a lot of guff with no clear message about the guff within the guff. I looked in the history tab and there is a lot of good stuff in there thats been deleted. Looks like the whole article was well solid before. I think some of that can help the present problems. I added some on patterns that are in the books, and some information on the models. Why was this deleted before? Its full of useful refs and its obviously right if you look at the common books. I also sorted out that section on goals. Its not the NLP that has goals. The user is supposed to have the goals. Theres a lot of that sort of writing in the nlp article and it needs more sorting out. Alan Barnet

Arguably, science can generally be given more weight on wikipedia than psychological or evidence from popular NLP books. However, what is more important is that we make an effort for all significant views to be represented fairly. I don't see how inserting text from past disputed versions of this article is bringing the article closer feature article candidacy. I've made an attempt at rewriting the scope to bring it more in line with this goal. --Comaze 07:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I don't know who disputed the deleted info but its very much in order from the books I have read. The views are a bit narrow. I noticed some views from previous versions from other academic fields in the history tab. The NLP books have had a large say already but it is a bit one sided towards the commercial view. Now I think the other scholar areas need a mention as well. I'll see how it all fits together in the right view-proportion. I'll also get an account for myself and read more about the rules of Misplaced Pages about articles like these. Alan Barnet

Alan, I've started to notice recent academic monographies on psychotherapeutic approaches, cognitive science, and synergetics that include sections describing theoretical structure of NLP. These are being published even in Russian. Articles on NLP as a phenomenon that gives some insights into the structure of communication are included in some recent psychology encyclopaedias. It seems to me that the status of NLP as a scientific subject is a matter of time. Or perhaps, on the basis of NLP and other insights, a purely scientific approach will be developed, if necessary. For me NLP represents only three letters used to describe some interesting findings from different approaches, and it seems so unfortunate that more attention is attracted to these letters, not to the structure of this yet protoscientific approach. Eli the Barrow-boy 23:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

New comment: I can understand how an article about this kind of work can arouse strong emotions both in those who want to affirm it and those who want to express problems they have experienced or witnessed with it. Perhaps once a suitable and neutral article can be formatted from the available information (by moderators or preferably an NLP expert taking care not to stray into promotion), an additional link to "experiences with NLP" on a discussion page such as this one will allow people to battle it out without ruining the encyclopedic descriptions. I came here just to clarify for myself what NLP is about but it is really clear that the article has been tampered with by enthusiasts and detractors and I cannot rely on it.

ftr I have had experience with group training programmes (not necessarily defined as NLP) that left me uncomfortable because their self-certainty verged on bullying and left me in a bit of a mess as to my own development. Additionally I was unhappy with being sold courses and with the failure to accept my existing strategies as already powerful, in the context of intense training to which I was surrendering myself. However I tend to prefer concentrating on the benefits simply because some of the excellent tools I learnt do require an affirmative outlook and they are that embedded.

People for whom NLP works are clearly not savvy enough to the pitfalls and how powerful those can be to unsuccessful subscribers. And people for whom it does not work or who reject it are apparently reluctant to respect the value of this work for others. It is an interesting conversation that maybe warrants a Misplaced Pages article in itself. Dom 10 November 2006 Ends NB Please reformat as appropriate if necessary. I don't know what all those tags are about.

Dom, as far as my study of NLP goes, it all depends on the trainer and his training qualities. How he/she develops interrelationships within the group, or, to put it correctly, how effectively he sets the scene for interrelationships to flow. I can tell nothing about the person and the group where you had training, however what I can share from my point of view is that in NLP it is presupposed to respect or at least acknowledge other person's map—or adaptation patterns to the world, if you prefer. And the point of NLP training (in NLP-Practitioner-like courses) isn't that it has to destroy your adaptive balance with the world and crush your effective adaptive patterns. At first, I didn't understand this point that in that kind of training they only give you new tools to explore, and if you don't find them effective you always may stick with your preferable effective strategies. Of course, one needs to consider obvious limitations of group trainings. I think the arcticle will become more informative on this account sooner or later. Eli the Barrow-boy 22:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

NLP and linguistic developement

It seems somehow ironic to this editor that the proponents of a treatment called "Neuro-'linguistic' programming" communicate in such terrible English. Food for thought. --Gigantic Killerdong 19:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, many talented writers were scared off. Hopefully we can enourage some to return and contribute. When the article is up to cratch we'll encourage copy editors to clean it up. --Comaze 05:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the recent additions to the main article have some awful language in them. I'll have to sort them out. I had a pretty good look at the recommendations in NPOV policy pages, and there's a lot of work to do here to catch up with the quality of other articles. AlanBarnet 20:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've sorted out the English in the Commmon patterns section. At the same time, I've improved the NPOV language in that section. The rest of the article needs work. --Comaze 01:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Comaze, it may help if you took a good look at the articles on writing style and words to avoid. There is a lot of useful information there that will help you keep the language in the article more neutral. AlanBarnet 10:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm current rewriting that techniques section in paragraph style. By the way, inserting that section on "NLP as a New Age approach" at the top of the article raises the NPOV flags. Some of your other edits, for example to Scope were fine. --Comaze 10:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Its definitely overview material. I'll find some more to place there. I got rid of the heading. Theres a lot of copy editing to do in this article and I'll focus here as much as possible until its done. The history tab has a huge amount of good sourcing in it. In fact its also useful for other articles. I really think writers here should start looking more closely at the policy pages before they start writing. AlanBarnet 10:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see where you're going with that move now. Can you have a look at the techniques/ritual section again. I think that ritual is POV as it is rarely used to describe the techniques in the academic literature. It appears to overemphasise the spiritual, or otherwise flakey aspects of NLP. Similarly to use of "a god's eye view" in the current description of perceptual positions has the same problem, so does the description of circles of excellence. While there is only a few hundred articles on NLP indexed in psychinfo it does gives a reliable indication of what is considered to be the "core" techniques and terminology. Otherwise it will be very difficult to come to some agreement over terminology because of the many different schools. --Comaze 12:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ritual is basic psychology and we all use it in writing just as Dilts and the other refs I verified. Likewise with the spiritual aspects. Its obvious from the literature already there that its psychospiritual. Flakey really is a matter of POV though and I'd definitely not use the term outside of quotes. Psychinfo database, or any other such base is not reliable. The books you see in the stores are pretty much spot on as an indicator. The online Dilts reference mirrors that perfectly. I just took a look at it as the article was begging for verification. It all holds. Agreement or consensus is unnecessary here as NPOV policy is simple and says if it is verifiable and reliable then it can be used. There are far more shaky areas that need improving and sourcing. I suggest you focus on those. It looks like NPOV priorities have been ignored for a long time in this article. AlanBarnet 12:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

AlanBarnet, You have raised a number of issues that I want to bring up here in relation to the patterns/techniques section and more generally to promote reliable sources in the article. Firstly, ritual is not generally used in the psychological literature to describe NLP patterns/techniques therefore claiming that ritual is basic psychology is simply not valid. It is clearly skeptical POV. Technique or pattern would be more neutral. Similarly, emphasising the spiritual aspects pushing a similar POV. Again please use neutral language. Furthermore, the psychinfo database is trusted by most university and psychology departments. Why claim it is unreliable? The peer-reviewed articles it indexes are more reliable than any book on NLP found on the skeptics site or in a flakey new age section. It seems like a straw man argument is being set up by defining NLP in terms of new age flakes. Self published books are certainly not as reliable as peer reviewed journal articles, for instance, the online Dilts reference is self published, and would not hold as much weight as a peer reviewed source. NLP University and "American Pacific University" are both non-accredited. I bring this up to point out that there are many unsupported claims made in the books and marketing of NLP. Some trainers even claim to have PhDs from non-accredited universities. It is then most important to give preference peer-reviewed or only those NLP works that are highly cited in the peer review literature like "Structure of Magic Vol 1 and Vol 2", Frogs into Princes, etc. If we can agree on peer-reviewed articles as a strategy then we can begin to make some progress. Otherwise, any work on the article that does not use reliable sources will have to be revised at a later date. --Comaze 00:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing up ritual again. Ritual is mentioned in the online source of Dilts and I did not include it. It should therefore be included. I'll make the changes. Accusing me of POV pushing is unconstructive. NLP uni press is the publisher (not Dilts) and can be considered reliable as expert source. Plus, ritual is a common psychology word and is as appropriate as using words such as excellence and programming. AlanBarnet 22:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Juan Matus

I believe that Juan Matus of Carlos Castaneda refered to Neuro programming in his concept or teaching of 'Not doing' and 'internal dialogue'. Words and languages are percieved or understood differently influenced by internal prejudice and 'internal dialogues' which maintain a fixed view of the world. We see what we want to see and our own internal programming and scripts and act accordingly. Stop the internal dialogue and you will be able to see/percieve more, and broaden your thingking. Since I can't find an official authority to support this and this is a personal reflection, I can't place this in the article.--Jondel 06:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In Turtles all the way down (Grinder & Delozier, 2000) and Whispering in the Wind (Grinder & Bostic St Clair, 2001) there is reference to internal silence in that it is important for achieving states of external attention with minimal conscious attention. Grinder refers to this as "first access". It is required for perceptual positions, and NLP modeling exercises. Check the other literature to see if it is included reliable third party sources. --Comaze 09:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes Castaneda is a new age guru who the authors of NLP refer to quite a lot in the refs I have. AlanBarnet 22:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Fact and reference check

"Typically peer reviewed publications are considered to be the most reliable, with established professional publications next."WP:Reliable sources I want to begin to checking all the sources running reference checks on this article systematically. When this is complete, we can ask for a fact and reference check. Sources where there are multiple steps to publication, such as fact checking and editorial oversight, are more reliable, other things being equal, than those without these procedures. If you can help, please let me know and we can assign different sections to each other. --Comaze 00:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Findings

1. The quotes from Devilly were misleading. There is nothing new in Devilly's paper. And the focus of the paper is not NLP. It is just use an an example of "Power therapy". --Comaze 03:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
2. I'm currently checking the text attributed to Beyerstein. I've moved it to one paragraph in "scientific analysis". This should probably be renamed to "scientific review". --Comaze 03:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
3. Beyerstein is a well-know skeptic of any talk therapy, and proponent of applying hard nose science to psychotherapy. This bias toward scientism should be characterised. --Comaze 06:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Biases noted

Well, I just had a checkup on the recent changes and reversions. My journalist suspicions got pretty much confirmed when users like 58.179.189.82 have shown a severe reluctance to admit well sourced facts about theory. Also Comaze, your latest changes have led me to believe there will be a very much uphill struggle to present anything vaguely related to facts as the are or even NPOV policy. You made some very odd changes to the article that look just like some kind of promotion and business bias. I noticed an authority above in the discussion page ( the user Woohookitty) who complained about similar edits and I’m not at all surprised he got sick of editing here. I will explain: I looked up the Devilly paper, and the Beyerstein credentials. They are both professors. That is the job they do and that is their bias. If you can find any reliable info about them using scientism then post it up for discussion. Devilly talks about NLP as a power therapy and says it is pseudoscience. In the edit about German education and scientology, you say you were unable to verify the source. Why? Babelfish is easy to use, and the term scientology is clear already. You removed the Kelly ref and gave no reason for why you think the section is unbalanced. Claiming unbalance is not a reason to remove information. You will have to do better than that. Kelly is a reliable book source and it is pretty much confirmed by the rest of the article. You changed New Age therapies to alternative therapies. Why? The whole article is about the New Age. Your reluctance to have such information presented smacks of strong promoter bias. You cut Druckman’s line - NLP has been found to be most ineffective concerning influence/persuasion and modeling of skills - and it is very clear that Druckman says it is uneffective for influence skills. Your deletion there is very bad and again smacks of promoter bias. You added Druckmans comment - While Druckman found little support many many aspects of NLP, they comments that the merit of modeling required further investigation Scientific review in the early 1980s finding that modeling (p.138) - but that is highly inaccurate considering NLP has been dropped since then in such research. I noticed the later Von Bergen paper says NLP has been dropped by Druckman completely from the research. Devilly emphasizes this kind of fact saying the research has come and gone and only the belief remains. It’s a new age belief system rather than just an unsupported talk therapy. With so many hides going on the only thing to do to make the editing work is to revert all of your changes. Sorry, but your bias has become very clear now. If you are going to work at all on this article you are going to have to tread far more carefully. AlanBarnet 13:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that German ref does not count as a verifiable source. And it was misleading. There are many other misleading sources used on the article. Let's assume good faith here. I have attempted to make edits with guidelines. {{quote_required}} or {{dubious}} tag to the disputed text. Also you have misrepresented Devilly in your comments. Devilly cites Sharpley, otherwise it is simply opinion and should really be excluded under NPOV. Now, I don't usually do this but under the circumstances I am going to revert back to my version. I'd appreciate it if you mark the specific text you disagree with rather than blanket revert, you will find that on the whole it is an improvement on the article. --Comaze 14:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Marking all your changes dubious is unreasonable. If you don't want your edits reverted then stop deleting verifiable information. All of the reasoning for your changes is completely unconvincing. AlanBarnet 14:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me. Please stop reverting. I'm in the middle of a major fact and reference check. --Comaze 14:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No Comaze if you revert again I will revert yours later the next day according to the rules. You cannot keep deleting or skewing reliable information. AlanBarnet 14:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not delete or skew information. And it was not reliable. I checked it and found that it was misrepresented. I can provide quotes. And also be careful of reverting as this page is still covered by Arbcom. It would be much better if we co-operate. I will see if I can bring in some friendly wikipedians from Harmonious Editing Club. --Comaze 15:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Picking up from user Woohookitty

Ok Im going to make an effort to sort this article out. I know there is pressure to make a promo booklet here and I will make an effort to clear that problem up. Just looking at the kind of argument that the promo booklet editors use it is easy to see what info they don't want in the article. Unfortunately that looks exactly like the info that will make the article right again. Lilienfeld seems to be a major player in the scientific line. If anyone has his book refs or quotes they will do well here. There are some presented above in discussion and I will check them out online wherever possible. AlanBarnet 14:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll assuming good faith here. You have now reverted several times. I will take into account your suggestions when working with the article, just please stop blanket reverting. The articles does need alot of work, and that will just slow us down. A review of the science in the article is needed. I have a database of all the peer-reviewed research to date on NLP which we can draw from. I can provide you access to that database if you require. As I said I also have access to the university library databases and psychological journals. Most of the "science" in this article was written by someone who had little respect for the difference between fact and opinion. Keep in mind that Lilienfeld and Beyerstein take a hard nose stance against any talk therapy including those used by APS members. Be careful though, on wikipedia we take a Neutral POV. It is not a Scientific POV. This means even a "pseudoscientifc psychobabble" or alternative talk therapy must be represented as atleast plausible. --Comaze 15:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I will stop blanket reverting when you stop blanket warping the sources. The article needs less work now that I have made appropriate changes over the last few days. Why did it take you so long to jump into action? Judging by your activities you have made next to no constructive changes for months despite the need though you have made edits that involve deleting the solution to the problem. I have read both Beyerstein and Lilienfeld online just now and they display a normal scientific viewpoint when tackling subjects like NLP. All of the edits I made were true to NPOV policy and the majority of yours were against NPOV policy especially in terms of misrepresenting the facts or quotes from sources. Woohookitty spelt it out pretty clearly what I am up against here. So with that mental set I will keep improving the article despite your resistence if need be. Your resistence to Lilienfeld makes it pretty clear that the view needs including. I will trawl back through the history tab to see if it has been appropriately included in the past. AlanBarnet 19:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference druckman was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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