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Military history: North America / United States / American Civil War Start‑class

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Archives
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House Term

The article states that "Lincoln himself was despondent, and he decided not to run for reelection." in reference to his speeches denouncing the Mexican-American War. I've read a few biographies of Lincoln (D.H. Donald, Sandburg, Oates, and Goodwin), and none of them state that this was his reason for not running again. They all, however, talk about how he and two other Whigs, John Hardin and Edward Baker, had agreed to rotate the safe seat between them, and that Lincoln subscibed to this plan and wanted to abide by it (while also taking great pains to convince Hardin to abide by the plan and not try to run again). There never seemed to be a plan for Lincoln to run again. Is there a source saying the poor reaction to his speech was his reason for not running again? Does anyone else remember the rotation plan? I figured I would get some opinions before changing it.Mattweng8:00pm 24 August 2006 EST

I just read that section of the Donald biography, and it looks like you're right. Stilgar135 19:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Railsplitter

"Poor boy makes good" -- is that really the theme they were pushing, as opposed to "poor boy just like most of you"? I'd be more inclined to refer instead to "humble origins" or something like that. What would the contemporary reaction to the rail-splitting iconography have been? --jpgordon 15:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The GOP in 1860 gave heavy emphasis to Lincoln's poverty and rise to the top. It was Lincoln himslef who emphasized "poor-boy-makes-good" theme. Like the log cabin images in 1840, the rails seem to have been effective--they show up in many cartoons for example. Rjensen 15:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I know about the log cabin and rail splitting iconography -- I was just wondering about the "poor boy makes good" language. Is "poor boy makes good" mid-19th century phrasing, or might we find something contemporary with the same flavor? --jpgordon 15:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Biographer Thomas (1952) says: "when Abraham Lincoln was a candidate for President of the United States, and John Locke Scripps, a campaign biographer, asked him about his boyhood years, he replied: "Why, Scripps, it is a great piece of folly to attempt to make anything out of my early life. It can all be condensed into a single sentence and that sentence you will find in Gray's Elegy-- 'The short and simple annals of the poor.'" Thomas adds: "Republican organization was thorough. The party's techniques were skilled. Speakers and campaign literature made the most of Lincoln's boyhood poverty, his pioneer background, his native genius, his rise from obscurity to fame. His nicknames, "Honest Abe" and "the Rail-Splitter," were exploited to the full. " (p 216) Rjensen 15:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Good. Now, is "poor boy makes good" mid-19th century phrasing? All I'm asking about now is the particular language; certainly the meaning and intent of the phrase is correct, but it sounds Horatio Alger than Abraham Lincoln to me. (Of course, now that I said that, I notice that the very first entry in our Alger bio is Abraham Lincoln: the Backwoods Boy; or, How A Young Rail-Splitter Became President (1883).) --jpgordon 15:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"poor boy makes good" = first citation of exact quote is about 1900. But the article does not claim the term is older. Rjensen 20:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Controversies around Abraham Lincoln

Alleged Separatism/Racism

There have been quotes hemaning from Lincoln wich suspected him of being racist, notably:

"Negro equality. Fudge! How long in the Government of a God great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue knaves to vend and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagoguism as this?" September, 1859, Springfield, IL. But the more present aspect of him is his separatism. He said that multiple times without really hiding it:

In an address at Springfield, Illinois, on June 26, 1857:

"A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together… Such separation, if ever affected at all, must be effected by colonization… The enterprise is a difficult one, but ‘where there is a will there is a way;’ and what colonization needs now is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral sense and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and at the same time, favorable to, or at least not against, our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be."

In the famous Lincoln-Douglas Debates in Charleston, Illinois, Lincoln said:

"I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." (Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois on September 18, 1858)

I searched out the text of Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation and found to my consternation that even his speech that accompanied it called for the deportation of the Blacks from America and their repatriation to Africa:

"…and that the effort to colonize persons of African descent with their consent of upon this continent or elsewhere, with the previously obtained consent of the governments existing there, will be continued." (From the emancipation proclamation issued from President Lincoln on Sept. 22, 1862)

The following are President Lincoln’s words at a repatriation ceremony in Washington, D.C. addressing the African-American community:

"I have urged the colonization of the negroes, and I shall continue. My Emancipation Proclamation was linked with this plan. There is no room for two distinct races of white men in America, much less for two distinct races of whites and blacks. I can conceive of no greater calamity than the assimilation of the negro into our social and political life as our equal… Within twenty years we can peacefully colonize the negro and give him our language, literature, religion, and system of government under conditions in which he can rise to the full measure of manhood. This he can never do here. We can never attain the ideal union our fathers dreamed, with millions of an alien, inferior race among us, whose assimilation is neither possible nor desirable. See our present condition — The country engaged in war! — our white men cutting one another’s throats . . . and then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or the other . . . It is better for us both therefore to be separated. . . You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. There is much to encourage you. For the sake of your race you should sacrifice something of your present comfort for the purpose of being as grand in that respect as the white people...General Washington himself endured greater physical hardships than if he had remained a British subject, yet he was a happy man because he had engaged in benefiting his race, in doing something for the children of his neighbors, having none of his own. The colony of Liberia has been in existence a long time. In a certain sense it is a success. The old President of Liberia, Roberts, has just been with me--the first time I ever saw him. He says they have within the bounds of that colony between three and four hundred thousand people, or more than in some of our old States, such as Rhode Island or Delaware, or in some of our newer States, and less than in some of our larger ones...The question is, if the colored people are persuaded to go anywhere, why not there?" (address on Colonization to a Deputation of Negroes in Washington, DC on August 14, 1862).

More infos in Forced Into Glory:Abraham Lincoln's White Dream of Lenone Bennett Jr. Roger_Smith

Alleged Bisexuality/Homosexuality

http://en.wikipedia.org/Sexuality_of_Abraham_Lincoln and The Sexual Life of Abraham Lincoln of Andrew O'heir Roger_Smith

2nd After Jesus

It is a known fact (well, known by me and a couple of other triva nerds, anyway) that Abraham Lincoln is the second most written about person after Jesus Christ. Should it feel necessary, I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the article.--El Niño's Brother 13:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)El Niño's Brother

• "Well known facts" are useful if they can be documented. Find some numbers and include them! --jpgordon 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• hear the ghostly laughter coming from the tomb in Springfield.

Edeans 07:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Lincoln's Religion

It says that Lincoln was not affiliated with any religion. It doesn't make much sense to me that he would be an atheist because he quoted the Bible. Personally, I think Lincoln believed in God; but opinions are not what Misplaced Pages is about. Since Abraham Lincoln's religion is a subject of great controversy, I think it would be better if the article said something like more neutral like, "no affiliation known" instead of just completely denying that he had any faith whatsoever. JNeal 08:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Having no affiliation does not mean having no religion - it means not belonging to any religious group. His beliefs were clearly deistic, so yes, he did belive in some kind of deity. It is known that he had no affiliation with any religious group - though he sometimes attended services with his wife, he never joined any church. Deist would be the easiest to defend, but it is not really a religion - and putting it there will irritate people, especially Christians. Since it seems to have irritated you a bit, though, maybe it's time to irritate someone else --JimWae 08:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

deist does not seem right (compare Jefferson, who was a deist)...Deism had pretty well disappeared by this time, and unlike deists Lincoln had a profoundly religious sensibility--which he shared in for example 2nd inaugural. He did NOT think the world was a clock that God wound up 6000 years ago then ignored ever since. Rjensen 09:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

There are several theories that he was a diest. And not all diest think of the world as a clock that God wound up and has ignored ever since. That is an over simplification that people use to argue against it. Diesm is better described as a rational, logic based approach towards faith that rejects the ideal of divine revelation. To say that he couldn't be a diest because he has "religious sensibilities" is foolish. Dominic 17:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

One would think, perhaps, that one knowledgeable about deism might be able to spell it. --jpgordon 23:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Please remain civil and on topic. --ElKevbo 23:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Abraham Lincoln – Deist; no personal affiliation (KY/IN/IL)
   • Life before the presidency
     • For much of his life, Lincoln was undoubtedly Deist (see , ). In his younger days he openly challenged orthodox religions, but as he matured and became a candidate for public office he kept his Deist views more to himself, and would sometimes attend Presbyterian services with his wife Mary Todd Lincoln. He loved to read the Bible, and even quoted from it, but he almost never made reference to Jesus, and is not known to have ever indicated a belief in the divinity of Jesus.
     • Evidence against Lincoln's ever being Christian includes offerings from two of Lincoln's most intimate friends, Ward Hill Lamon and William H. Herndon. Both Herndon and Lamon published biographies of their former colleague after his assassination relating their personal recollections of him. Each denied Lincoln's adherence to Christianity and characterized his religious beliefs as deist or atheist.
   • Lincoln's religion at the time of his death is a matter about which there is more disagreement. A number of Christian pastors, writing months and even years after Lincoln's assassination, claimed to have witnessed a late-life conversion by Lincoln to protestant Christianity. Some pastors date a conversion following the death of his son Eddie in 1850, and some following the death of his son Willie in 1862, and some later than that. These accounts are hard to substantiate and historians consider most of them to be apocryphal.
     • One such account is an entry in the memory book The Lincoln Memorial Album—Immortelles (edited by Osborn H. Oldroyd, 1882, New York: G.W. Carleton & Co., p. 366) attributed to An Illinois clergyman (unnamed) which reads "When I left Springfield I asked the people to pray for me. I was not a Christian. When I buried my son, the severest trial of my life, I was not a Christian. But when I went to Gettysburg and saw the graves of thousands of our soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ. Yes, I do love Jesus." Other entries in the memory book are attributed by name. See a discussion of this story in They Never Said It, by Paul F. Boller & John George, (Oxford Univ. Press, 1989, p. 91).
     • Rev. Dr. Phineas D. Gurley, pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian church in Washington D.C., which Lincoln attended with his wife when he attended any church, never claimed a conversion. According to D. James Kennedy in his booklet, "What They Believed: The Faith of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln", "Dr. Gurley said that Lincoln had wanted to make a public profession of his faith on Easter Sunday morning. But then came Ford's Theater." (p. 59, Published by Coral Ridge Ministries, 2003) Though this is possible, we have no way of verifying the truth of the report. The chief evidence against it is that Dr. Gurley, so far as we know, never mentioned it publicly. The determination to join, if accurate, would have been extremely newsworthy. It would have been reasonable for Dr. Gurley to have mentioned it at the funeral in the White House, in which he delivered the sermon which has been preserved. The only evidence we have is an affidavit signed more than sixty years later by Mrs. Sidney I. Lauck, then a very old woman. In her affidavit signed under oath in Essex County, New Jersey, February 15, 1928, she said, "After Mr. Lincoln's death, Dr. Gurley told me that Mr. Lincoln had made all the necessary arrangements with him and the Session of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church to be received into the membership of the said church, by confession of his faith in Christ, on the Easter Sunday following the Friday night when Mr. Lincoln was assassinated." Mrs. Lauck was, she said, about thirty years of age at the time of the assassination.
     • --JimWae 23:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Some great information is presented above that should definitely be sumarized in the article. I can't imagine that religion was not an important issue in Lincoln's life, even if he didn't practice any organized religion. At present, the article mentions religion twice: the vague infobox entry and one comment that appears to attribute his non-Christian beliefs to his youth. Bjart 07:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Summary

Isn't the lead and the summary serving the same purpose? So in my opinion, the summary heading is redundant and should be eliminated, with some of the essential items moved up to the lead. The lead is rather short for such a long article anyway. Some of the information is even a repeat of the lead, or a repeat with a little more information, which is then fully explained in the article. Superfluous. Civil Engineer III 14:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Since no response, went ahead and did it. I think it's a little long though. Maybe some of that can come out completely, since a lead is supposed to be a summary of the article to follow...Civil Engineer III 15:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• six paragraphs & 774 words is tooooo longgggg - even for Lincoln--JimWae 17:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

cut to 390 words and 5 paragraphs Civil Engineer III 18:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Add Lincoln's "Lost Speech" to Abraham Lincoln page

I was just wanting to suggest that you add some information on Lincoln's "Lost Speech" which took place on May 29th, 1856 in Bloomington, IL. "It furnished the setting for one of the most dramatic episodes of Lincoln's life ... A speech by Lincoln was rarely an ordinary occurrence, but on this occasion he made one of the really great efforts of his life. So powerful was his eloquence that the reporters forgot to take notes of what he was saying. Several commenced, but in a few minutes they were entirely captured by the speaker's power, and their pencils were still." Since I am a resident of Bloomington/Normal, it would be greatly appreciated if this information were added. Thank You, dither1987

I found this commented out

As a featured article, this article should NOT have a trivia section, a practice heavily frowned upon on Misplaced Pages. However, if you find a constructive way to incorporate any of this information as prose elsewhere in the article, please do so.

i see truth in this. GreatChimp 08:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. I'm not aware of any policy or guideline against trivia sections as such. If there is, please point me to them and I'll stand corrected. What I personally dislike about trivia sections is that they attract lazy "drive-by" additions by people who don't bother to cite sources their items... and, if source citation isn't enforced, tend to accumulate a fair number of inaccurate items.

But I don't see any reason not to keep the sourced items.

Many of the unsourced items are probably accurate and not too hard to source. The burden of supplying references is on those wishing to keep items like "He was born on the same day as Charles Darwin" and "Lincoln was the first President to sport a beard" and "Lincoln stood 6 feet 3¾ inches (192.4 cm) tall," but the burden is probably not very heavy.

Even "according to legend" items are legitimate enough if there's a good source attesting that the legend is widely known. It is quite appropriate for the George Washington article to contain a mention of the Parson Weems' "cherry tree" story... in its Myths and misconceptions section, which is really just a trivia section that selectively contains only inaccurate trivia. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There are two articles that address trivia sections. The first is a guideline from the Manual of Style that states that trivia sections should be minimized. The second is a proposed policy or guideline (I believe it was formerly an essay) that makes, IMHO, a very good argument for eliminating trivia sections altogether. Rather than repeat that argument I would direct interested editors to that article.

Further, if the burden of proof is so low then I would advise those who wish the material be kept meet that burden and provide a source. --ElKevbo 18:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of the objection to trivia sections stems from having a list of random facts tacked onto the end of an article. I suggest that weherever possible the trivia items be integrated into the article in their logical locations. Some of these trivia items are quotes, which should simply be moved to Wikiquote if they aren't needed here. -Will Beback 18:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

• Lincoln stood 6 feet 3¾ inches (192.4 cm) tall (not including his hat) and thus was the tallest president in U.S. history, just edging out Lyndon Johnson at 6 feet 3½ inches (191.8 cm) tall.
• He was born on the same day as Charles Darwin.
• The last surviving self-described witness to Lincoln's assassination was Samuel J. Seymour (~1860–April 14, 1956), who appeared two months before his death at age 96 on the CBS-TV quiz show I've Got a Secret. He said that as a five-year-old he had thought at first that he—instead of Lincoln—had been shot because his nurse, trying to fix a torn place in his blouse, stuck him with a pin at the moment of the gun's discharge.
• According to legend, Lincoln was referred to as "two-faced" by his opponent in the 1858 Senate election, Stephen Douglas. Upon hearing about this Lincoln jokingly replied, "If I had another face to wear, do you really think I would be wearing this one?"
• According to legend, Lincoln also said, as a young man, on his appearance one day when looking in the mirror: "It's a fact, Abe! You are the ugliest man in the world. If ever I see a man uglier than you, I'm going to shoot him on the spot!" It would no doubt, he thought, be an act of mercy.
• Based on written descriptions of Lincoln, it has been conjectured since the 1960s that Lincoln may have suffered from Marfan syndrome, including the observations that he was much taller than most men of his day and had long limbs, an abnormally-shaped chest, and loose or lax joints.
• Lincoln suffered lifelong depression. During one severe episode triggered by the death of his fiancée, Ann Rutledge, in 1835, his close friends, fearing him suicidal, kept constant watch over him. At one point during his presidency, his depression became so severe that he held a cabinet meeting from his bed. He also suffered from frequent nightmares.
• For a period of years, Lincoln took blue mass pills to alleviate his depression. The main ingredient of these pills was mercury, which is toxic. Some historians now speculate that mercury poisoning may have accounted for the erratic behavior of Lincoln during the years he was taking the pills. He stopped taking them just after his inauguration and his erratic behavior seemed to subside at the same time. Reports of his behavior are consistent with symptoms of mercury poisoning. However, without hair samples from Lincoln during the period in question, it is impossible to confirm or invalidate this hypothesis.
• He once mentioned one of his haunting nightmares to his friend. Lincoln mentioned that he was standing in a mourning crowd surrounding a train, and when he asked a grieving woman what had happened, she replied, "The President has been shot, and he has died."
• Lincoln is the only American president to hold a patent. The patent is for a device that lifts boats over shoals.
• Lincoln was famous for many presidential speeches and quotes, one short quote being "No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar."
• Lincoln was the first President to sport a beard.
• Lincoln's son, Robert Todd Lincoln, was returning home from Harvard University, when he lost his balance and fell between two railway cars. A fellow passenger reacted quickly, pulling him from certain death. The helping hand was that of Edwin Booth, a brother of the man who would soon assassinate the young man's father.
• In 1865 Lincoln received a letter from the International Working Men's Association, congratulating him on his reelection and praising his anti-slavery stance. It was penned by Karl Marx.
• Presidents Lincoln and Zachary Taylor were both descended from Colonel Richard Lee of the Lee family of Virginia.
• Lincoln's death chair resides at The Henry Ford in Dearborn, Michigan along with the original Logan County Courthouse where he argued cases.

///Betacommand 16:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC) ==Let's keep the trivia section. It contains accurate material that people want to know--the sort that is provided at leading museums. The person who removed it was not a long-time editor and apparently knew little about Lincolnia. Rjensen 18:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

• I don't much care for the trivia sections in general, but this one's better than most - it's not full of crap like "Abraham Lincoln shows up in part 5 of the video game WhoKaresz", but rather, is stuff about Lincoln. --jpgordon 20:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the claim that Lincoln may have had Marfan's syndrome: The three major indicators of Marfan's syndrome are heart problems, abnormally long arms and legs, and nearsightedness. Lincoln had no heart trouble, had limbs proportional to his height, and was farsighted, not nearsighted. The article should show at least some indication of this. -WikiMarshall 01:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Smallpox?

Did he have it? I've heard that he did; weird that it's not in the article... --205.188.117.7 15:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Well, it wasn't exactly a rare occurrence. Lincoln came down with a mild case of the disease two days after the Gettysburg Address; it doesn't seem to have taken much out of him. (And a mild case is the best thing that could happen in those pre-vaccination days: permanent immunity.) --jpgordon 18:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Abraham Lincoln

I've started an approach that may apply to Misplaced Pages's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a good approach. The popculture material always seems like a bad fit for the biographical articles, but it is of interest to many editors. The number of references to a subject like Washington, Lincoln, etc, are adequate to fill an article. -Will Beback 20:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Great! I hate seeing perfectly good biographical articles getting junked up with modern stuff the subject had nothing to do with. Rklawton 21:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• I think that this is a good idea, but I suggest that you discuss it with the folks at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography and agree upon a common naming convention for the articles. Someone just recently did as you suggest by separating out George Armstrong Custer in popular culture; I personally think that having the subject name at the beginning of the title is superior, but do not feel strongly about it, as long as one consistent format is used. Hal Jespersen 23:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I've left notes at Misplaced Pages talk:Wikiproject core biographies. This seems to be the first effort to standardize an approach for this type of material. Editors did some brainstorming months back when the Joan of Arc list was developing in order to find a title that would include both high culture and pop culture. Would anyone object if I created this proposed page? If a better title emerges the list could be renamed. Durova 18:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the Trivia section into the new page. Most of the Legacy section could go there too - I'd suggest summary style. Durova 15:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Mother's death???

I read a biography of Abraham Lincoln saying his mother died when he was 10

'I was born Feb. 12, 1809, in Hardin County, Kentucky. My parents were both born in Virginia, of undistinguished families--second families, perhaps I should say. My mother, who died in my tenth year, was of a family of the name of Hanks....'

It's on this page: http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/al16.html 4th paragraph

• That's right. She died on October 5, 1818. He was in his tenth year; he was nine years old at his most recent birthday. (Babies are in their first year until they are one year old.) Took me a couple of minutes to figure that out, too... --jpgordon 01:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Census

• 1850 US Census with Abraham Lincoln in Springfield, Illinois
• 1860 US Census with Abraham Lincoln in Springfield, Illinois

The Name of the Act passed to prevent more than one son being killed in war

I am writing to try and find out the name of the Act whereas it prevents more than one son being killed in war.

As in the movie "Saving Private Ryan"...

Please email me at *removed*

Thank you, Kelly

• A couple of misconceptions here. The Lincoln connection, I imagine, has to do with the story (is it a true one?) of a woman who had three sons in the army, two having had been killed, and Lincoln arranges for the third son to be discharged, to the mother's great relief. (It sounds like a cherry tree story to me, but what do I know?) The "surviving son" thing is marginal, and mostly wrong. is the Selective Service's writeup on this. --jpgordon 17:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Its sorta true.Check this out for the original story. http://en.wikipedia.org/Letter_to_Mrs._Bixby mweng 21:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

2nd Paragraph

"To preserve the Union, Lincoln had to overthrow slavery, which he did through the Emancipation Proclamation and the Thirteenth Amendment. He took personal charge of Reconstruction, seeking to speedily re-unite the nation. He was opposed by the Radical Republicans who advocated much harsher policies."

-Lincoln did NOT have to "overthrow slavery" to preserve the Union. Before 1861 Lincoln did not want to end slavery. He wanted to preserve the Union with or without slavery in the South. Also, is "overthrow" the best possible word to use? Lincoln did not "overthrow" slavery with the Emancipation Proclamation. He outlawed it.

- Lincoln did NOT take personnal charge of Reconstruction. He was dead during Reconstruction.

This paragraph needs a re-write. Not only are the facts wrong but too many ideas are forced together in order to make a point.--Lester113 16:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• I just deleted the whole thing. What a mess! --jpgordon 16:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph was tweaked to solve the complaints. Lincon did free the slaves and he did so in order to preserve the Union. Reconstruction began in 1862 and Lincoln was the leader--he took personal charge (most famously in Louisiana). He wrote and got Congress to pass the 13th amendment in Feb 1865. The facts are correct. Rjensen 22:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

According to its Misplaced Pages page, "Reconstruction was a period in United States history, 1865–1877, that attempted to resolve the issues of the American Civil War when both the Confederacy and its system of slavery were destroyed." Although Lincoln was working on policies to restore states to the Union during the war, I do not believe the term Reconstruction is popularly used to describe Lincoln's actions. You could say that he attempted to direct the process of reconstruction through his actions in Louisiana and his language in the second inaugural, but that its actual implementation after his death did not follow his intentions. As to the 13th amendment, I was considering its effective date (December 1865), which was the event that actually ended slavery. If you wish to reword that sentence to indicate he submitted it to Congress before he died, that is fine. Hal Jespersen 22:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

""Reconstruction began in 1862 or 1863 as this Lincoln article and all recent Lincoln biographies state. The "reconstruction" as standard usage; thus "Lincoln's Plan for Reconstruction" by William Hesseltine appeared 46 years ago. The 1865 date is merely a useful dividing line for textbooks. Constitutitional amendments are dated by their passage by Congress--which was the central event after all. What happened AFTER his death is very important indeed, but that's another story. Rjensen 22:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Reconstruction did not start until the Civil War was over. Let us use some common sense here. How can Reconstruction start in 1861 if the War was not over? World Book Encyclopedia agrees with me.

" Reconstruction lasted from 1865 to 1877 and was one of the most controversial periods in the nation's history. Scholars still debate its successes and failures." http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Article?id=ar461540

To say, "He took PERSONAL charge of Reconstruction" is just asinine. Lincoln had ideas on Reconstruction. Lincoln had theories on Reconstruction but to say he took "PERSONAL" charge over Reconstruction is the type of gross error that makes people laugh at Misplaced Pages. Lincoln was not a PERSON during Reconstruction. He was a corpse.

This next sentence might and I say might pass without an error mark in an 8th grade Lincoln essay. But anything beyond the 8th grade and this sentence would be flagged.

"To achieve his main goal of preserving the Union, Lincoln decided to abolish slavery"

Lincoln did not "abolish slavery" through the Eman. Proc. until 1863. Lincoln stated in his famous letter to Horace Greeley in 1862 that abolishing slavery was not his goal in preserving the Union.

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

So to suggest that Lincoln decided to abolish slavery to preserve the Union as a declarative statement with no reference to time (the 1862 Greeley letter compared to Lincoln's 2nd inaugural in March of 1865) is such simplistic history it borders on the comic. Come on guys. You can do better --Lester113 03:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

We can do better than World Book I hope. Reconstruction began in 1862-3--read Eric Foner's standard history of Reconstruction 1863-1877 for example, Try one of the books listed in our Bibliography. Historians for 50 years have said Lincoln began reconstruction and took personal charge of the planning and policies--and indeed that point is made in our article and in Reconstruction. Look at the big fight over the Wade Davis Act for example. Lincoln of course used the term--as in Lincoln's "Declaration of Amnesty and Reconstruction," proclaimed in 1863. The best book is Harris, William C. With Charity for All: Lincoln and the Restoration of the Union. U. Press of Kentucky, 1997. 364 pp. Or look at the scholarly articles,

for example: Neal, Diane and Kremm, Thomas W. "Loyal Government on Trial: the Union Versus Arkansas." Southern Studies 1986 25(2): 148-162. ISSN: 0735-8342 . Abstract: In June 1864 the US Senate refused to admit Elisha Baxter and William Meade Fishback as members from the state of Arkansas. This was the first stage in the struggle between President Abraham Lincoln and Congress over who was going to direct Reconstruction in the South. The president had begun Reconstruction under the direction of military commanders. In January 1864 a new Arkansas state constitution had been drawn up which outlawed slavery. Congress would probably not have seated any men chosen by a presidential plan, but Fishback's corrupt election sealed the case against Arkansas.

another article: Maslowski, Peter. "From Reconciliation to Reconstruction: Lincoln, Johnson, and Tennessee," Tennessee Historical Quarterly 1983 42(4): 343-361. ISSN: 0040-3261

Abstract: After the summer of 1862, Governor Andrew Johnson moved Tennessee onto a radical path opposed by both the state's Confederate-sympathizing majority and the restoration-minded conservative party dominated by the prewar Whigs. President Abraham Lincoln's continuing support of Johnson's reconstruction plan indicated the president's own radical drift and resulted in Tennessee abolishing slavery, repudiating secession, proscribing the political rights of ex-Confederates, and ratifying the 13th Amendment. In a word, scholars are agreed that Limcoln began Reconstruction abd it was one of his major concerns. Rjensen 03:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you going to defend the statement that Lincoln, "took PERSONAL charge of Reconstruction"? You might think I am arguing over semantics here but to keep this statement in an article as pivotal as the Lincoln article makes Misplaced Pages wish it had the credibility of a 90 year old publication such as World Book.

Lincoln was DEAD during Reconstruction ergo he could not take PERSONAL control over it. I would be be satisfied if just the word "personal" was taken out of that statement.

I can't believe I'm even being challenged on this point?--Lester113 03:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Lincoln and Reconstruction--specific cites and links

A good, short textbook treatment of Lincoln ad Reconstruction appears at = Liberty Equality Power with Infotrac: A History of the American People Since 1863 - Page 536 by John M. Murrin, Paul E. Johnson, James M. McPherson - (2004); McPherson is a leading historian of the war. For Foner's views see from his award-winning history of Reconstruction. Also a shorter version of Foner is at . For a book-length history see . In a word: wiki has to include this very important material. Rjensen 03:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sure that is important let's all read your book list but do you, Rjensen, believe Lincoln took "personal" charge of Reconstruction? I look forward to hear what book you might recommend that proves that Lincoln took "personal" charge over Reconstruction. After all how can you cheat death? Abraham Lincoln 1809-1865.

Why are you fighting this? Geesh. --Lester113 04:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reconstruction was in operation in 1863 and it was high on Lincoln's agenda. Rjensen 05:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Lester113, you seem to be missing a certain historical detail, which has been repeated here several times and which you could fix by looking at Reconstruction: its programs and policies started while the Civil War was still underway. --jpgordon 05:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Jpgordon, just a few days ago you deleted this whole paragraph. In your own words,"I just deleted the whole thing. What a mess!" Now you are defending it?

This is my last comment on this issue. To say, "To achieve his main goal of preserving the Union, Lincoln decided to abolish slavery, which he did through the Emancipation Proclamation..." is just incomplete history. Lincoln's ideas on slavery and the connection to the preservation of the Union changed over time from the 1862 Greeley letter to his 2nd Inaugural in 1865. So as it stands this sentence is just poor writing.--Lester113 13:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• It was an ugly mess -- poor writing, as you say -- but it was not incorrect. It's improved now and is being worked on. Your opposition to it, however, seemed based on an inaccurate perception of what constituted "reconstruction". It's true that Lincoln did not live into the period called "reconstruction"; however, he was a leader in establishing the process. --jpgordon 14:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I am a retired American history teacher who helps people with their Lincoln-related questions through e-mail. My website, the Abraham Lincoln Research Site, is located at http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton/Lincoln2.html, and I have a special page for students seeking a one page summary of Lincoln's life at http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln77.html My website on Lincoln has had over 8,000,000 visitors since 1996, and during that time I have replied to over 50,000 Lincoln-related e-mails. I am wondering if an administrator would consider adding one or both of my links to the "External Links" section of Misplaced Pages's Abraham Lincoln article. Thank you for your possible consideration. Sincerely, Roger Norton

• Not an admin, but I added the first link Mr Norton suggested. While I hesitated in adding yet another link in a rather long article, and while I do have some criticisms of this site, overall it is a good site, which I have visited previously. A GWS on Lincoln will not infrequently link to this site. It is well designed, well illustrated, and would appear to be the result of a good deal of conscientious effort. (BTW, it is preferred that contributions to talk pages are signed with four tildes ("~"). Thanks!) Edeans 16:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• I am not familiar with the procedures RE: Misplaced Pages, so please excuse me if I am not following protocol. I just wanted to say 'thank you' to Edeans. Sincerely, Roger Norton

Proposal: remove Civil War section

Obviously, the quickest way to get this animal under control is to drop the ultra-lengthy Civil War section. It's already covered aplenty in its own article. any tidbits worth saving can always be accessed later and incorporated in the main article. I plan to remove it in about a week, but would like to hear from others before i do. Stevewk 21:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Object. Unless you plan to move it to a sub-article, such as Abraham Lincoln and the American Civil War (which I am not recommending), this material should not be deleted because it is focused on Lincoln's actions, not simply the war in general. Hal Jespersen 22:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • i can live with a subarticle, but then, we even have one of those: The American Civil War. i know there has got to be stuff of value there, but who has the time to wade through it and pick it out? and...the article MUST be shortened. Stevewk 23:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• i still plan to make the switch late this week, so if anyone else has something to offer, now would be the time. Hal et al., i'm simply going to remove the Civil War section because 1) its not a true deletion anyway (if the need arises, it can always be obtained from History); 2) Wiki already has a very full 'American Civil War' article. anything else i do, will be posted here, so all will know. Stevewk 16:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

* Ultra strong Object. Sure the article is long, but the Civil War section is the wrong place to cut, and removing it entirely is wrong, unless it is indeed moved to a subarticle with a proper reference. On behalf of the American Civil War Task Force, which monitors this and other articles, any attempt to totally remove the Civil War section will be strenuously objected to and will immediately be reverted. Please take this up with the rest of the task force if you still want to discuss this, but for now, removal is not an option. Editing and shortening, sure. Total removal - no way. WP:ACW. Scott Mingus 00:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is actually a fair amount of extraneous material that can be taken out (for example, who cares that he was born the same day as Darwin?). I will volunteer to take the snippers and carefully edit this article to shorten it, without sacrificing the essential information. Sound OK, Steve? I may copy this into my sandbox and start playing with shortening it when I get time.Scott Mingus 00:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• well look, i almost completely disagree with you (you're forgetting there already is a competent and lengthy American Civil War article, and also that nobody is truly deleting anything), but in view of your objection/s, i'll adjust the plan so as to keep the whole thing and move it to a new subarticle called Abraham Lincoln and the American Civil War. i'll make sure to reference the subarticle prominently in the body of the Abraham Lincoln article, and also in its "Further Reading" or "See Also" sections. that way, no one will be able to miss it. Stevewk 04:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• Object Lincoln is famous for his wartime role and that is why people read the bio. What would be useful is an article on the Lincoln Administration that covers very impt work of his cabinet. Rjensen 18:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong objection. The article on Abraham Lincoln will be one of the most read articles. Elementary and secondary students and teachers as well as collegiate students and teachers will consult this article as they begin studying slavery & civil rights, powerful Presidents (Lincoln is always listed in the top 3 by scholars in the polls) and even the Civil War (causes, consequences, etc). More students know about the Gettysburg Address than the Declaration of Independence. However, to understand the Gettysburg Address the student needs background on Lincoln's role in the Civil War. The beauty of online encyclopedias is that we don't have to worry about space. We need to provide a complete picture and limiting material on the Civil War won't help anyone.

Jozil 18:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Books about Lincoln

I just finished reading "Team of Rivals" and found it quite interesting. Any other recommendations?

• Sandburg's works. --YankeeDoodle14 05:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• I heard very good things about the DKG book. Gary Gallagher (UVa) and James McPherson may be the top 2 Lincoln/CW scholars in the US right now. Stevewk 16:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Although Gary and Jim are certainly two of the most prominent Civil War scholars, neither has attempted a biography of Lincoln that I know of. Jim's 1991 Abraham Lincoln and the Second American Revolution is an analysis in seven essays of how American society was revolutionized by the Civil War; his Battle Cry of Freedom is superb, but it is about the war era in a concise single volume, not focused on Lincoln per se. David H. Donald's 1995 Lincoln has been described as the "best single volume biography of Abraham Lincoln." Carl Sandberg's Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years and Abraham Lincoln: The War Years, six volumes published from 1926 to 1939, have been described as a "masterpiece of poetic biography" but they are not known for historical accuracy, particularly about his antebellum life. I understand that Michael Burlingame is working on a four volume biography of Lincoln, to be released in 2007 and 2008. Hal Jespersen 00:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Spelling errors

Hi. "Canoeing" is spelled "canoing" and "leapt" is spelled "lept." I don't know how to edit it. Someone who knows can do an Edit-Find and fix these errors. Thanks.

• Done. Stevewk 16:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

jarrett rox

New page: Abraham Lincoln and the American Civil War

ok, the deed is done. the AL page is already much easier to work with. someone else might consider moving the relevant Further Reading, External Links, etc.: Abraham Lincoln and the American Civil War. Stevewk 00:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

no the deed is not done. Even if we have a spearate page oin topic the main article--which is all most people read, has to have a full analysis of by far his most important role in War.Rjensen 18:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

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