| Revision as of 05:25, 1 April 2019 editIanmacm (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers46,185 edits →Tagging: re← Previous edit | Revision as of 05:35, 1 April 2019 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,298,161 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:2016 shooting of Dallas police officers/Archive 4) (botNext edit → | ||
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| == not Brent Thompson but Lorne Ahrens == | == not Brent Thompson but Lorne Ahrens == | ||
| during the main street shootings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 the officer shown is not Brent Thompson but Lorne Ahrens https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2016-07-13-1468370777-3604307-LorneAhrensIronCrossTattoo-thumb.jpg. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | during the main street shootings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 the officer shown is not Brent Thompson but Lorne Ahrens https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2016-07-13-1468370777-3604307-LorneAhrensIronCrossTattoo-thumb.jpg. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | ||
| == Presidential video statements == | |||
| These are usually removed as being ] material, and I would struggle to see how this would be any different. It's fine to include a few secondary-sourced quotes in the article, as that's what we do. We do not generally host primary material. Does anyone have a good reason other than longevity for keeping this here? --] (]) 21:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with including this. Articles don't usually have videos due to ] but the White House is exempt because its videos are in the public domain. My only complaint would be that the video is 3:53 long and a person might not watch all of it. A news broadcast would typically show a clip from the video.--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 05:13, 1 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::Exactly, CNN would maybe play 10 s of this, not the full whack. We should (probably) link to it but it should not be displayed in full. Just as we don't reproduce source articles in full but summarise them, even when there is no copyright concern. --] (]) 09:00, 1 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::] the most recent similar discussion I can find. {{u|InedibleHulk}}, would you agree the same arguments would pertain in this instance? --] (]) 09:55, 1 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::There's an obvious parallel here with the ], because John the video of Barack Obama's White House response in October 2017. I'm not sure if this was necessary, but at 3:57 it was rather long and could have been summarized with a clip. I could edit the video with a bit of spare time. 30 seconds would be enough.--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 10:35, 1 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Absolutely; as all good Wikipedians should do, I summarise and/or remove all disproportionate primary material wherever I see it. Misplaced Pages is ]. A summary of what Obama said in his speech is fine, if reliable secondary sources reported on it as I'm sure they did. We could use a link to the original footage to facilitate those who were interested in viewing the thing. I don't think 30 s would be much better than four minutes for our purposes. --] (]) 11:02, 1 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| *In the absence of any rationale for keeping this, I have removed it again. --] (]) 14:01, 4 April 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Neutrality == | == Neutrality == | ||
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not Brent Thompson but Lorne Ahrens
during the main street shootings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 the officer shown is not Brent Thompson but Lorne Ahrens https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2016-07-13-1468370777-3604307-LorneAhrensIronCrossTattoo-thumb.jpg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.230.79.158 (talk) 16:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Neutrality
Tagging this article for WP:NEUTRALITY. The reasons why Micah Xavier Johnson performed such an act has not been discussed in detail in the background section as per sources, but simply glossed-over. In fact, it is left right towards the middle of the article under "perpetrator:motive" (Mr. Johnson's section) and briefly touched on before telling us about his online activities, etc. It is irrelevant whether one believes those reasons are justifications for his act, but those reasons are material to this article in order to give the reader a balanced background of this incident from the start as per our policies. To simply gloss-over them is totally unacceptable for such a sensitive and racially charged incident like this. I would advise that those reasons (see below) are summarised in the lead and detailed in the background section. I have noticed a big difference in how this article is edited compared to the Dylann Roof article - which I commented on in January 2019. Unlike Dylann who was a White Neo-Nazi domestic terrorist who wanted to kill Black Americans (even the ones who welcomed him and treated him well) for no other reason other than the fact that they were Black, Micah Xavier Johnson on the hand target White police officers after numerous brutal killings of Black Americans by White police officers which can only be described as "shoot now and cover up later". Not only, that, but those White officers where exonerated by the racist American judicial system, leaving victims' families to pick up the pieces without justice for the brutal killing of their Black children/relatives. This, coupled with the historically and presently racist treatment of America's Black citizens by the dominant White American society are material facts and cannot be glossed-over. I have observed a big difference in the Dylann Roof article compared to this one. In the Roof article, the reader is groomed from the outset to have sympathy for him, be telling us about his difficult childhood and coming from a broken home etc (see the link to the talk page tread I started in that article). The perpetrator section of the Charleston church shooting (Dylann's section) appears more balanced. It simply provided us the facts. The same cannot be said here. I would also advise that the perpetrator section of this article (Mr Johnson's section) be split into a stand-alone article and titled Micah Xavier Johnson, and that section be summarised with a link to the main Micah Xavier Johnson article and the redirect removed as per the Dylann Roof article. I would also advise that Micah's main article be edited in a neutral way as per our policies. Some of the trivial nonsense presented in this article under his section should not be added back to his article as per policy.Tamsier (talk) 14:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not sure about this, mainly because two wrongs don't make a right. The infobox gives the motive as "Anger about recent police shootings of African Americans, racial hatred" which is broadly correct. I wouldn't want to go down the road of stating or implying that the shootings were somehow justified because the victims were white police officers.--♦IanMacM♦ 15:44, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think this has anything to do with two wrongs not making anything right. I think this is about adhering to our policies.Tamsier (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- What reliable sources hold the viewpoint that this shooting was justified because of racial inequality in the American judicial system? What specific edits, in your opinion, would resolve this article's neutrality problems? VQuakr (talk) 17:31, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's not exactly what I wrote or implied in my post above. I suggest you read again what I've written which clearly states what my concerns are, which sections are affected, what and how to fix them.Tamsier (talk) 16:45, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- For the record, please note that after my comment above, @VQuakr: made this revert in order to remove the tags I placed on this article as discussed above. I reverted him and then left him a message on his talk page asking him to discus the issues here before removing tags. He removed the message I left for him. He has not made any attempt to address the issues other playing ruse as per his comment above. WP:TANTRUM is not welcomed here, neither is POV pushing.Tamsier (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's not exactly what I wrote or implied in my post above. I suggest you read again what I've written which clearly states what my concerns are, which sections are affected, what and how to fix them.Tamsier (talk) 16:45, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- What reliable sources hold the viewpoint that this shooting was justified because of racial inequality in the American judicial system? What specific edits, in your opinion, would resolve this article's neutrality problems? VQuakr (talk) 17:31, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think this has anything to do with two wrongs not making anything right. I think this is about adhering to our policies.Tamsier (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Tagging
Nothing actionable proposed by way of neutrality and I don't see an issue; do we have consensus to remove the tag? VQuakr (talk) 19:17, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- As per my recommendations above.Tamsier (talk) 23:39, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I would support removing the tag as there are no obvious NPOV problems. Micah Xavier Johnson was a troubled person who committed a crime described by President Obama as a "vicious, calculated, despicable attack" There is little scope for expressing sympathy, however indirect, with Johnson's actions simply because he had perceived grievances with the police and the justice system.--♦IanMacM♦ 05:24, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Proposed split of "Perpetrator" section
- Oppose; nothing of note beyond the commission of crimes on July 7-8. Trim the bloated section instead. VQuakr (talk) 19:17, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support split to a stand-alone article and titled Micah Xavier Johnson - with this redirect removed as per the Dylann Roof and Charleston church shooting articles. The subject is notable with plenty of independent reliable third party sources covering Micah Johnson in detail. There is also a huge bundle of text about him in that section which can be transferred to his own article and edited for neutrality as per our policies.Tamsier (talk) 23:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
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