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Revision as of 21:24, 13 April 2019

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Deep Fakes

As one of the largest sources of free images, should we be concerned by this?

The Newest AI-Enabled Weapon: ‘Deep-Faking’ Photos of the Earth

It would be interesting to see if our developers could come up with a countermeasure. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I've been looking into DeepFakes recently as part of my ongoing concern about the quality of information we are being given. As an example of a case where I had initial concern (but I think confirmation has been gotten via traditional means) there was a viral video circulating this morning in the UK of soldiers doing target practice... the camera pans around to show that they are shooting at a photo of the leader of the opposition, Jeremy Corbyn. People were quite rightly upset about it but when I watched the video it looked to me like something quite easy to fake without even using the super advanced deepfake techniques.

Here's what I have learned. The most advanced researchers are still able to quite easily identify fakes. There's a bit of an arms race between deep fakers and researchers detecting them. I don't know of any principled reason to think that the researchers will always be one step ahead. It may be possible to create deep fakes that are virtually impossible to detect.

I doubt very much that our developers can help with that - it's a super advanced / specialized and rapidly moving field.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

There's an ongoing war between critical thinking and trickery. "Consider the source" is getting even more important at the same time as truly, consistently reliable sources appear to be shrinking in number. But there is an increase in political energy over the past decade which may contribute to more cerebral discourse among friends, family and colleagues which might exercise our minds enough for them to be more discerning and aware of the tidal wave of trickery washing over us of the type Jimbo mentions, or worse. Nocturnalnow (talk) 21:46, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I think its a good idea and soon. Nocturnalnow (talk) 18:48, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

We wouldn't have to worry about deep fakes if Misplaced Pages acquired good quality satellite imagery now or sooner from a trusted source with a digitally signed secure link to their satellites, then uploaded a few checksums for all the free satellite images here to the blockchain. (I mean, a checksum of checksums would be just a few bytes) That wouldn't help against video fakery in the larger sense (shooting at Corbin, though that doesn't sound faked) but it would certainly help to hinder the jackals of the post-truth generation from unwriting the Map of the World. Wnt (talk) 16:08, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

By the time you are down to a few bytes Collision attacks become viable and in any case there are no benefits to getting a block-chain involved. If you want to publish a hash of the worldwind stuff no one is going to stop you.©Geni (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

People making deep fakes don't care about copyright so will just use google images. In any case the only things or people we have enough photos of to make a deep fake viable are either things or people with large numbers of photos elsewhere (eiffel tower, US presidents) or people with longstanding involvement with the project who the people making deep fakes are unlikely to be interested in. If you mean people making deep fakes targeting us then good old fashioned Photoshop does the job just fine.©Geni (talk) 16:58, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

This thread was specifically about fakes of satellite photos of Earth. This is a very narrow topic and we can help put a solid historical record on file right now that will severely limit any future legerdemain. Obviously militaries can and have disrupted commercial databases for tactical purposes, and they certainly can pull a "nope, no new torture camp here, same woods as always" after our map is published and signed (for which they would need no new AI programs!) but we can make it impractical for them to mess with the map itself. Wnt (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I think its a good idea and that it should be done soon. Nocturnalnow (talk) 18:49, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Maybe its a good thing because people in general might become more skeptical of all information and less likely to accept government propaganda, other fake news, and commercial marketing claims as being true. Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

An accretion disk glare for you!

Thank you from the flat accretion disk society

Dear Mr. Wales, from time immemorial, we have been chastised, bullied, scorned, shunned, excised, enjoined, discombobulated, sanctioned, alleged, and misconducted because of our beliefs about the duo-dimensionality of ordinary accretion disks into which three dimensional gravitational vortices fall. We understand that you have been having difficulty with "flat Earthers" and ask that you please send them our way. EllenCT (talk) 12:16, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Could you help me help Assange?

Jimbo, could you please try to get this info to Assange's lawyer?

In the CNN interview linked to here, at the 1 minute 8 second mark, Senator Hatch says;

"you can make anything a crime under the current laws, if you want to, you can blow it out of proportion, you can do a lot of things."

A Canadian lawyer told me that Magna Carta rights and British law should prevent Britain, in keeping with her commitment to the principles of fundamental justice, from extraditing anyone to any country where "you can make anything a crime". It would be no different from extraditing someone to North Korea.

I tried unsuccessfully to reach Jennifer Robinson, his lawyer, so I'm hoping you have some contacts who could get this video in her hands. Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"Magna Carta rights" - good grief. Anyway, the relevant law here is of course the European Convention on Human Rights. However, what Orrin Hatch thinks is irrelevant, because as long as the basic tenets of the American judicial system meet the requirements of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, then lawfully there's no issue with Assange being extradited. And the UK has extradited people to the US before. Black Kite (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

That's very interesting about Article 6 because it says there must be a presumption of innocence, which there surely is not. As far as others being extradited, perhaps they had a chance at a presumption of innocence, but not so with Assange, if we're honest we all know that, I think. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Orinn Hatch is neither sitting on any jury, nor is he the presiding judge, over any case involving Mr. Assange. What he says means diddly squat. Politicians stay stupid stuff all the time. It means nothing in this regard. Pay it no mind. --Jayron32 14:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

ok, but the "presumption of innocence" that Article 6, above, mandates (in order to be extradited), is certainly not present in the USA regarding Assange. You'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think he's presumed innocent there. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Jimbo is not a fan of Assange. In any case I doubt if he has any contacts with Assange's lawyer. Have you tried the Yellow Pages under "L"? :-) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I do not think that it is appropriate for Misplaced Pages, the Wikimedia Foundation or Jimbo acting in his official capacity to get involved with political issues that do not threaten the existence or functioning of Misplaced Pages. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

He's a criminal whose organization colluded with the Russian government to influence the U.S. election. Let him make his defense in court instead of finding a closet to hide in. It's not Wikimedia's role to get involved with international espionage. Liz 01:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I just read the indictment and he is only accused of trying to figure out a password which he never did figure out. Wow, what a huge crime...trying to figure out someone's password. Its shameful how our main stream media is misleading most of us into thinking he's accused of actually having "hacked" into secret computers....its the difference between wanting to commit a crime and actually doing it, but like Senator Hatch said; ""you can make anything a crime under the current(USA) laws, if you want to, you can blow it out of proportion".

Actually this indictment is a perfect example of the habitual fraud perpetuated by the USA justice(lol) system that Hatch exposes.

You'd think after the "Iraq has WMDs" scam they would not get such almost universal acceptance of their lying accusations and conspiracy theories; but then, as I learned in business school (paraphrasing) "Its all about the branding, baby"....or as P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute", and one thing American big business/federal government is good at, its branding aka bullshit. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

WikiMedia should speak out against the serious human rights violations against Assange for his role in disclosing the truth the US and other governments wanted to hide. Statement by Special Rapporteur on extra-judicial executions, Agnes Callamard: "in “expelling Assange from the Embassy” and allowing his arrest, it had taken Mr. Assange “one step closer to extradition”. She added that the UK had now arbitrarily-detained the controversial anti-secrecy journalist and campaigner, “possibly endangering his life”." We can also read there: "In a statement last Friday, Special Rapporteur on torture, Nils Melzer, said he was alarmed by reports that an arrest was imminent, and that if extradited, Mr. Assange could be exposed to “a real risk of serious violations of his human rights, including his freedom of expression, his right to a fair trial, and the prohibition of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”

Late last year UN experts urged the UK to honour rights obligations and let Mr. Julian Assange leave Ecuador embassy in London freely "“The United Kingdom has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and has a responsibility to honour its commitment, by respecting its provisions in all cases,” the experts said.

“As the High Commissioner for human rights said several years ago, human rights treaty law is binding law, it is not discretionary law. It is not some passing fancy that a state can apply sometimes and not in the other,” the experts recalled.

“In addition, the recommendations of the WGAD Opinions are expected to be implemented by all States, including those which have not been a party in the case concerning Mr. Assange,” said the experts." Count Iblis (talk) 01:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

No. It isn't the job of an encyclopedia to speak out against human rights violations. Pick an organization that is working towards your political goals and support that organization. Misplaced Pages is not a political advocacy group. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:56, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Assange is being targeted because of WikiLeaks disclosures, this is something that should make WikiMedia concerned. If a WikiMedia site were to publish information that the US doesn't want to be disclosed, WikiMedia may also be targeted. Nebulous charges like "conspiracy to engage in computer hacking", or if that doesn't work it may be "conspiracy to engage in a conspiracy to engage in computer hacking" will be issued. Count Iblis (talk) 06:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Slippery slope arguments aren't always invalid. but the are not sufficient reason to change Misplaced Pages into a political advocacy group. The reason they are not sufficient is that pretty much any political POV pusher can put together a slippery slope argument. Be careful what you wish for; in your imagination if you were to actually succeed at turning Misplaced Pages into a political advocacy group the WMF would only advocate for the same things you advocate for. In reality if we make Misplaced Pages into a political advocacy group it may very well end up advocating things you despise. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Count Iblis' point is profound, imo. Here we see that publishing the Pentagon Papers or any of the Snowden info is already a crime. Our U.S. Justice masters just haven't felt like charging us yet. "18 U.S. Code § 798.Disclosure of classified information: (a)Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—..(3)concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government;...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both." Heads in the sand never helps. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think Assange's lawyers would find a quote from a Senator particularly relevant or meaningful in this context. I further think that what Senator Hatch was saying is in one sense not accurate at all but in another sense true of pretty much every country. There are enough complex and ambiguous laws everywhere to mean that a sufficiently motivated bad faith prosecutor can cause a lot of headache for someone. But I agree with Black Kite - it is unlikely that me contacting someone with this quote would be helpful. I am sure his lawyers will be making a variety of arguments as to why the UK shouldn't extradite him.

I also don't have any real contact with anyone in Assange's organization. I know some people who know him or knew him - he has a consistent pattern of falling out with people - but I can't think at the moment of any direct way of getting in touch.

I am a big supporter of freedom of expression, and that support doesn't hinge on whether or not I like the person, so I'm not sure why that's even being raised as a question here. I think that the core of what Assange has done (publishing documents) is fully protected by the First Amendment and there is basically zero chance that any direct attack on that would get anywhere with the US Federal court system. What he is being accused of is a different matter, and I have no opinion whatsoever about whether his is innocent or guilty of those charges. But I am quite sure that the relevant court will stick straight to that - remember that whatever faults the US has (and of course there are many), it does have a very independent Federal judiciary (despite Trump's occasional ranting).

Just for completeness, I don't completely agree with Guy Macon's view on what the WMF or I should speak about, although my view is not far from his. I think it a mistake to define the parameters so narrowly as "the existence or functioning of Misplaced Pages" - such a remit would, for example, require the WMF to act far too timidly and "corporate" in the sense of looking after it's own narrow interests even when at the expense of the broader movement and the ecosystem that we are trying to achieve. Article 13 of the new European Copyright Directive has an explicit exemption for Misplaced Pages, so Guy's view as stated here is that we should stay silent (giving therefore our implicit consent) to something that is bad for a free and open Internet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Your support of freedom of expression is precious, and I have confidence that you will find ways to make some difference against the injustices some desire to commit against Assange and independent journalism. What is happening here is that the original sin of the internet has come home to roost. Prohibiting "hacking" was always a violation of freedom of expression, and many of us knew it. At first, the prohibition only meant that teenage hackers were hit with threats of jail instead of good paying jobs securing computers. Then we lost Aaron Swartz. North Korea and China (oh, and Russia also) became Internet superpowers, using their right to do to our computers what our kids and activists did not dare to. Now we see an Australian working in Europe who dared publish something supposedly he had a right to, being prosecuted for it based on United States "law", using the argument that saying you tried to understand a math problem constitutes conspiracy. Predicate logic tells us that "false proves anything", but it was hard to believe we'd see it done in practice. Everything built on the rotten foundations of copyright and legal privilege for at least the past half century may collapse into nothing.

We should begin to contemplate how to make Misplaced Pages relevant to a post-computing era where delvers of forbidden knowledge need to work in conditions of absolute secrecy. Wnt (talk) 19:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

The Federal judiciary are not independent and they are stupid as well.Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Defining moment of non-reaction

Here, with Misplaced Pages's (and others') help, Assange and Chelsea Manning showed the free world how reporters were gunned down while their killers laughed: "Collateral Murder, showed that the crew encountered a firefight and laughed at some of the casualties, some of which were civilians and reporters." The world would not even know about this horrific exposure of evil were it not for Assange's activities.

I heard several commentators on main stream media yesterday, including the CBC, take the position that Assange did some good deeds in the past and then they pivoted to an assumption of guilt of a "shame"ful crime re: the current indictment..it was if they were all reading the same script, e.g. one American commentator on CBC said exactly "Shame on him for doing this (attempt to figure out a password)".

We Wikipedians all know that "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" So, I still think...no, I know...Jimbo, you can do something to help Assange. Heck, you are even in the neighbourhood where he's jailed. Maybe some of us think its ok if we do not have access to knowing about war crimes perpetuated by the USA as shown in "Collateral Murder"...its certainly easier to just become "yes" men for the obvious bullies of this world, or at least not get in their way; they always provide some kind of twisted justification for the masses of people to go along with their twisted rationales. Jimbo, if you are feeling impotent about this because, as you say, "he has a consistent pattern of falling out with people", I'd suggest just standing out side his jail with a sign giving the URL to July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike and thanking Assange for releasing that shocking bit of truth for the whole world to see and read about on Misplaced Pages....and I'm not suggesting you do anything more risky or time consuming than things I've done myself to fight the tendency to look on and do nothing. Nocturnalnow (talk) 13:58, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

• I'm new here, so perhaps it isn't my place to say anything, but it looks like User:Nocturnalnow is banned from discussing American politics (since 1932) "on all pages of Misplaced Pages". Of course, the ramblings here hardly amount to a discussion, but the subject does seem to relate to American politics. Bitter Oil (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Compromised account missing information

Hello. on the Misplaced Pages:Compromised accounts page, there is a sentence saying "In late 2016 this became a particular concern, with many accounts being compromised by a hacker group." However, I haven't found any information anywhere elaborating on this incident. Where is more info on this, and can this be explained or linked to on that page? Thank you. DrewieStewie (talk) 23:50, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

The best place to ask questions like the above is WP:HELPDESK. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I don't know exactly what is being referred to there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

2016, oh that was when 'you' blocked me, Jimbo. The relevant article is at OurMine, though I see no reason to link to it in the information page. I believe there were also other perps in 2016. -- zzuuzz 09:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Ah, yes!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

A simple favor

Good morning, Mr. Jimbo Wales. I would like to know something: users of Misplaced Pages in Spanish are deleting my edits in the Misplaced Pages portal: El Noticiero, equivalent to Misplaced Pages: The Signpost, what happens is that El Noticiero is inactive and I want to reactivate it, but only two users support me, and there are about 7 users who are against. I want you to go to Misplaced Pages: Café and tell them that you support the reactivation of El Noticiero. Please.

Attentively....

--Villalaso (talk) 14:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)