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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dlthewave

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Sanctions being appealed

DiscussionLog

• Logged warning by Sandstein
• Deletion of User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles by Goldenring

Administrators imposing the sanctions

Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of those administrators

Sandstein

Goldenring

Statement by Dlthewave

• I feel that the closing statement "Springee, Trekphiler, RAF910 and Dlthewave are warned not to misuse Misplaced Pages as a forum for polemic statements unrelated to Misplaced Pages, or attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities.", which appears to be copy-and-pasted from WP:POLEMIC, is not an accurate assessment of consensus among the admins who participated in the discussion. Among other things, it implies that all four editors are equally at fault, which does not appear to be what the admins intended in their support for a logged warning. Although Goldenring did delete a page in my userspace under WP:POLEMIC, there was no discussion of my "attacking" or "vilifying" anyone and one admin even stated "Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion." There was no proposal to issue a logged warning to Dlthewave. (As a sidenote, I also feel that issuing a polemic warning to the other three involved editors instead of a warning related to talk page conduct was entirely out of left field, but that is something for them to address in their own appeals if they choose to pursue them.)
• I feel that Goldenring's deletion of a page in my userspace, User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles, has a chilling effect on my ability to document and share what I view as a long-term pattern in the gun control/gun crime topic area. This documentation plays an essential role in addressing current problems that are, in my opinion, a continuation of that pattern. My intention is to demonstrate a pattern and not to attack the individual editors who have been involved in that pattern. This removal is especially concerning when the "opposing" attacks and accusations which I documented are allowed to remain in full view at WP:Firearms and other talk pages. I would be open to discussing ways to do this that would not be viewed as an attack page, since similar pages maintained by other editors have passed MfD.

Although this deletion may have been within Goldenring's editorial discretion, I would like it to be reviewed by other admins and preferably discussed by the community at Miscellany for Deletion. –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• I've opened a Deletion Review here as suggested. –dlthewave ☎ 21:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• @BU Rob13: "If there is supposed misconduct here, take it to ANI, file a case request, hand out DS warnings and then take it to AE, etc" I've done all of those things, and you can read about it in the Signpost if you like. I've taken pains to focus on big-picture patterns instead of individual editor behavior, and no editors are named in the userspace page, however I think it's fair for me to be able to maintain a list of examples to back up the assertions that I made in the Signpost. –dlthewave ☎ 20:26, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• @BU Rob13: I'm not sure where you got the idea that there were no actionable requests. A few examples: . You will note that this appeal is actually directly connected to the most recent AE request. More examples can be found in the AE log under Gun Control. –dlthewave ☎ 22:31, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

After rereading User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, I agree with the appellant that the page was not (quite) a violation of WP:POLEMIC because it did not name editors and did not make allegations of misconduct, except as implied in the title ("whitewashing"), but that alone probably doesn't merit a warning. Because that page was the reason for my warning, I am striking it and recommend that GoldenRing (talk · contribs) undelete the page. A case can perhaps be made for its deletion on grounds of copyright / attribution, but that's a matter for the deletion process. Sandstein 18:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Per my comment here, I've also withdrawn the warning with respect to Springee. Clearly I should have read the enforcement request more carefully; sorry for that. I think that we should be more careful in the future as to whether or not to entertain enforcement requests directed at multiple editors. Sandstein 22:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

In response to Bishonen, GoldenRing is correct that an action that has been labeled as an AE action may only be reviewed by way of the process described at WP:AC/DS#Appeals, that is, here at AE, or at AN or ARCA – but not at DRV. Bishonen, I recommend that you undo your temporary restoration of the page for the purpose of the DRV, or you may be desysopped for undoing an AE action out of process, as described at WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators. Any admin who acts on the currently ongoing DRV by overturning the deletion may likewise be desysopped. Sandstein 15:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Springee

I'm clearly an involved editor. As I said before I think Dlthewave has a very strong POV on this topic and I frequently disagree with them. However, when push comes to shove, I don't think on good faith they viewed the page as a POLMIC. For what it's worth, I would support reverting Dlthewave's warning. Springee (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Other than supporting lifting of sanctions for Dlthewave, I've largely stayed out of this discussion. However, I think Dlthewave is contradicting themselves. In reply to BU Rob 13 they said, "however I think it's fair for me to be able to maintain a list of examples to back up the assertions that I made in the Signpost". As one of the editors quoted in the article in question I asked that my comments be removed ]. I specifically noted the link between the Signpost article and this user page. Dlthewave declined noting in part, "any link between it and our joint Signpost submission is tenuous at best." ]. This contradicts the claims made in reply to BU Rob 13. Furthermore, it specifically accuses others of "whitewashing" vs simply making unsound arguments. I view it as something that either needs to be acted on or deleted. In a similar vein I take a dim view of the "firearms" reaction list on the "Hall of Fame" page ]. Collecting material like this is needlessly antagonistic even though I don't think that is Dlthewave's intent. Springee (talk) 01:22, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing

I disagree with Sandstein above and stand by this action. Dlthewave has stated right here that the purpose of this page is to document long-term problematic editing and policy is clear that such material is allowed only for dispute resolution and when used in a timely manner. I don't see the practical difference between, "so-and-so said this" (which the appellant seems to admit would be disallowed) and "someone said this and here's a link showing who it was" which is what they've actually done. GoldenRing (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bishonen: I'm not sure why you've suggested deletion review here. AE actions cannot be overturned at deletion review, only at AE, AN or ARCA. Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action? GoldenRing (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

@Dlthewave: I will reiterate here what I've said on the deletion review: if you wish to use this material for valid dispute resolution (probably either an ANI or arbitration case request) and can outline a reasonable timeline for doing so (either on-wiki or privately by email), then I will self-revert my enforcement action. GoldenRing (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add, for what it's worth at this point, that I agree a formal warning to Dlthewave was not warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Please note that I have requested clarification from the arbitration committee regarding my deletion at WP:ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 16:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Simonm223

Marginally involved. I just found out about the removal of DLThewave's excellent summary of the challenges faced to bring firearms into compliance with WP:N including the way that a wikiproject has tried to present their MOS suggestions as policy. I've said as much at another venue, but this is definitely not a violation of WP:POLEMIC and should be undeleted for the valuable resource it is. Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dlthewave

• The matter of the deletion itself should be deferred to WP:DRV as that venue is much better equipped for such reviews. Whether or not the action itself was appropriate should be discussed here or in a more general manner at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee (where Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions redirects). — Godsy_CONT) 10:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Dlthewave

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I commented in the initial thread, so I'm not sure whether my response should appear in this section, or above with GoldenRing's and Sandstein's. The deletion of Dlthewave's userspace subpage was arguably appropriate under WP:POLEMIC, and within reasonable admin discretion on GoldenRing's part. While I'm not sure I would have done the same, I'm comfortable leaving the page deleted. That said, I don't think a formal warning to Dlthewave is warranted; there wasn't really any support for such a warning amongst uninvolved admins in the previous thread, and it seems like overkill. The proper response to a potentially polemical userspace subpage is to delete it, which has been done. There wasn't any convincing evidence of a pattern of behavior warranting a logged warning on Dlthewave's part, at least not that I saw.

  Regarding the logged warnings, I do take Springee's point that they perhaps paint the remaining 3 editors with an overly broad brush. There are clearly gradations of concerning behavior, with Springee on the mild end and Trekphiler/RAF910 showing a much more sustained and problematic battleground attitude. I'll leave it up to other admins whether we should modify the warning to exclude Springee, but it is worth considering while we're here. MastCell  21:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• Hmm. This is definitely a confusing situation. Reading the deleted page, it does seem borderline WP:POLEMIC so, perhaps, GoldenRing was right in deleting it. But, Dlthewave brings up a good point. If they do plan on making a future case then how else can they keep a record of the edits they see as forming a pattern? They could do it off-wiki of course, but isn't it better to be open about one's activities? While the deletion was within admin discretion perhaps, in cases of this nature, it is better to leave them as is with a note to the editor that they can't leave it sticking around for too long. Imo, the warning should be withdrawn. --regentspark (comment) 00:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• I'm not sure about deleting the whitewashing essay; I can't seem to make up my mind. Suggest dlthewave take it to Misplaced Pages:Deletion review. An admin should be asked to temporarily undelete the page for purposes of discussion as soon as the DR is opened. But I don't have any trouble agreeing with Sandstein, Springee, MastCell, and Regentspark that dlthewave's warning should be withdrawn and struck from the log, and Sandstein has already done so. Bishonen | talk 01:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC).

• @Dlthewave:, I've temporarily undeleted your page for the deletion review. Bishonen | talk 22:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC).
• Your deletion can't be overturned at Deletion review, GoldenRing? Are you sure? In that case, obviously I suggested it because I didn't know any better. A bit of bad luck that apparently nobody who did know saw my suggestion for Deletion review here at AE, some 20 hours before Dlthewave actually opened the deletion review. I'm not sure what should be the next step, considering there is quite a lot of discussion at the review already, and some disagreement about how to proceed. But whatever action is taken, rest assured I won't feel "undermined" by it, as somebody suggested there. I'm personally fine with whatever, although I want to apologize to Dlthewave for potentially complicating his situation. As for "Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action?", no, I haven't. If you're referring to my temporary undeletion of the page, for the deletion review only and with the front page covered by a template, per the instructions here, I can only ask you not to be so silly. If you're talking about my giving Dlthewave bad advice, well, I've explained how that came about (=ignorance on my part). Bishonen | talk 12:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC).

• What an absolute joy you are to work with, Sandstein. It's a wonder more admins don't flock to help out at AE, where honest mistakes get met with immediate threats of desysopping. I do want to point out that there's a pretty clear consensus at DRV that the page doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC. @GoldenRing:, do I understand correctly that you are not going to recognize that consensus because it is being discussed on the Wrong Page? If this is the case, then I suppose we should tell everyone at DRV their opinions are not wanted there, re-delete the page, and then have the exact same discussion here. Or alternately, GR could rescind the deletion.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• I not only agree that restoring the page for deletion review is not an abuse of process, but that deleting the page via AE would be an abuse of process. The way to remove userspace essays that are contrary to policy is MfD., and review of decisions there is at Deletion Review. DGG ( talk ) 06:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing, do you intend to delete under AE every page in an area subject to DS (such as AP or PIA) that you think might arguably be the result of an action that violation an arb ruling,? DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

And I have just noticed, Sandstein, that your closing at the AE Discussion used the wording of the arb case "for polemic statements unrelated to Misplaced Pages, " but the entire discussion above about whether it violated POLEMIC is irrelevant, because the page is obviously related to WP. And the arb com wording continued " attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities. " I do not see any editors named on the page in question. It was discussing edits. (Of course the editors were implied, because the statements wee linked, but nothing about the editors is question is said on the page, only about the edits. DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

• This has been stalled for a month, the deletion review was closed as consensus to overturn, and we need to proceed in one or other way. I see consensus to withdraw the warning, and this has been already done by Sandstein. The situation is more difficult with the deletion of the page, but if I take into account all opinions at DRV and also that all uninvolved admins here who commented after the close of the DRV supported undeletion, I would say there is consensus to undelete. I will wait a couple of days before closing, may be somebody wanted to comment and forgot or overlooked this discussion.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• I support User:Ymblanter's idea of undoing the AE deletion of the page, based on the apparent consensus of admins in this thread. Arbcom is still debating whether 'AE deletion' can ever be considered to be an option, but there is no risk of any conflict with Arbcom if the present deletion is simply undone on the merits. (We would be closing as though AE deletion was really allowed, but this *particular* deletion was reversed through the normal AE appeal process). It appears that a deletion review has already occurred which supported restoration of the page. EdJohnston (talk) 18:10, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
• I indeed closed it as overturn, and subsequently got strong objections from Goldenring concerning the restoration of the page (see their talk page), which I disagree with, but it is good to give another administrator a chance to deal with this.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:50, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
• Given the votes on the pending motion, we must proceed on the assumption that deletion of a page is allowed as a discretionary sanction. In my view, POLEMIC falls on the conduct side of the conduct/content divide: deciding whether a user page violates that guideline does not require one to make decisions regarding any encyclopedic content. Therefore, deleting a user page under POLEMIC does not fall into the category of deletions that may impermissibly settle a content dispute. Having considered the comments at the DRV to the extent they addressed POLEMIC (as opposed to the process issue), and after independently reviewing the page, I cannot say that GoldenRing's interpretation and application of that guideline is outside reasonable admin discretion, and that's all that is needed to sustain a discretionary sanction. Decline as to the deletion. As to the warning, the appeal is moot. T. Canens (talk) 01:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
• I would decline this. I think it is within administrator discretion to consider this a violation of WP:POLEMIC. In particular, I note that the editor who create the page has stated that they intend to use it as background for an opinion piece in the Signpost. The spirit behind POLEMIC rather clearly is intended to prevent editors from putting others "on blast" without making a formal report at a noticeboard. I believe compiling a long list of diffs on-wiki in order to write an opinion piece that attacks a particular editor or group of editors is plainly at odds with this spirit. If there is supposed misconduct here, take it to ANI, file a case request, hand out DS warnings and then take it to AE, etc. Compiling a list of supposed wrongdoing and then litigating it in the court of public opinion at the Signpost is contrary to the spirit behind POLEMIC. All of this is without comment on whether the editor is correct in the pattern they're highlighting; it doesn't particularly matter whether they are correct when it comes to whether it violates POLEMIC. ~ Rob₁₃ 03:26, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
  • There’s definitely been no case request during my time on the Committee, unless it came during a period of inactivity for me. But ignoring that, if all venues have not found those diffs to be actionable, turning to the Signpost to make assertions about a behavioral issue - whether editors are named or not - goes against the spirit of POLEMIC. ~ Rob₁₃ 21:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
    • ... and if they were actioned on, then the issue is resolved, and the list of diffs shouldn't be stored forever in user space to further litigate the issue unless new behavior emerges. ~ Rob₁₃ 16:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by David Tornheim

BullRangifer

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section] below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning BullRangifer

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Rusf10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:44, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

BullRangifer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 4/12/19 Asserts with no evidence that Attorney General Bill Barr lied to congress lied to congress to "please his boss". WP:BLPTALK
2. 4/12/19 Makes the same claim about Barr again and suggest that block/bans are necessary for those who disagree. Also, says Barr "just riled up Trump's base, the ones who believe this and other conspiracy theories, and who now come here to misuse Misplaced Pages to push their political agenda." WP:BLPTALK
3. 4/12/19 Tells an established editor that he should be topic-banned and is pushing fringe beliefs. WP:PERSONALATTACK
4. 4/12/19 Suggests that regular editors are pushing conspiracy theories, need topic bans, and are incompetent without providing evidence. WP:PERSONALATTACK
5. 4/12/19 WP:HOUNDs an other editor, demanding that respond to him immediately and again suggests Barr is a conspiracy theorist.
6. 3/27/19 Calls Barr's ""impartiality" is a farce" and that "his impartiality is not evident or to be expected." WP:BLPTALK

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 7/20/18 Received a warning for personal attacks on another Donald Trump related page.
2. 3/13/19 Received yet another warning for personal attacks on a Donald Trump related page.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Received DS alert 1/24/19
• The above warnings have occurred in the past 12 months.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

BullRangifer routinely labels editors he disagrees with (particularly any that speak favorably about Donald Trump) as fringe and conspiracy theorists and tells them they need to be topic-banned. This type of behavior is extremely disruptive and he has been warned repeatedly. Furthermore, he has also suggested (without evidence) that Attorney General Bill Barr lied to congress about spying that may have occurred during the 2016 elections just to please his boss (Donald Trump)and to "riled up Trump's base, the ones who believe this and other conspiracy theories, and who now come here to misuse Misplaced Pages to push their political agenda." Besides a BLP violation, this is the type of blog-style rhetoric that we do not need here. Given his WP:POLEMIC essay , WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, and disregard of previous warnings (see above), I strongly recommend that some type of action is taken this time (not just another warnings).--Rusf10 (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Sandstein:- I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my original filing. The suggestion that Bill Barr's statement to congress "I believe spying did occur" was made only to please his boss is an obvious WP:BLPTALK violation. Lying to congress is a crime and to suggest that Bill Barr did this without any proof should not be tolerated. Telling other editors that they are "pushing fringe beliefs" and should be topic-banned amounts to WP:PERSONALATTACKs. I also added an additional diff.--Rusf10 (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Aquillion:The evidence you presented against me is absurd. By your own admission, these are at most minor violations. And I would say most of them, don't even rise to that level. Do you honestly think there is something wrong with using the phrase "muddying the waters" or telling someone they are making a strawman's argument is a problem? These are just alternate ways of telling someone they are bringing something irrelevant into the discussion.--Rusf10 (talk) 21:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Phmoreno:You are correct, BullRangifer's behavior is unacceptable and so is Volunteer Marek's. I purposely ignored his Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering below, knowing that it contained many misrepresentations (which you did a good job of pointing out). I didn't even bother to look into his allegation against you, which he did not support with diffs. He accused me of not providing any evidence, yet I did. @Volunteer Marek: where is your evidence against Phmoreno? Provide diffs, otherwise your statement below constitutes a personal attack and WP:ASPERSIONS--Rusf10 (talk) 03:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: first of all, I am NOT your buddy. Second, with the exception of the first diff, you just provided them now and there are still other claims you made that you still ahve not provided diffs for, so do not accuse me of lying and then think that everyone else here is too stupid to realize. Now that you actually provided diffs: 1. there is no consensus on using the Epoch Times as a relaible source as per WP:RSP2. misrepresentation, the editor did not call Phmoreno fringe, but was asking for sources to avoid the appearance of WP:FRINGE 3. quoting Devin Nunes, am I missing something here?--Rusf10 (talk) 04:06, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@Sandstein, Awilley, Timotheus Canens, and Masem: Because "Boomerangs" are now being called for, I felt the need to fully defend myself against USER:Aquillion's allegations since he omitted context when presenting diffs against me. With the exception of the muddying the water comment, which has been blown out of proportion, my comments were in response to other inappropriate statements including those made by BullRangifer. Since it is too long for me to post here, I created a new page to respond fully: User:Rusf10/Response to Allegations--Rusf10 (talk) 03:25, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning BullRangifer

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by BullRangifer

Statement by Volunteer Marek

This is some gross misrepresentations by Rusf10. Let's see

1. "Asserts with no evidence that Attorney General Bill Barr lied to congress " - FALSE, what BR said is that Barr's words were "uncertain, off-hand, without evidence, spoken to please his boss, and he's pulled back on what he said", all of which can and is supported by sources on the related article's talk page.
2. " suggest that block/bans are necessary for those who disagree" FALSE, there's not a damn thing in that diff that mentions blocking or banning anyone. And regarding BR's comment about those "who now come here to misuse Misplaced Pages to push their political agenda.", what's wrong with it? The title of the freakin' discussion thread this is referring to is "Meatpuppetry at Spygate from r/The_Donald" (with plenty of evidence provided by User:Starship.paint to show that there is indeed a coordinated effort going on to disrupt Misplaced Pages in order to push a political agenda)
3. Tells an established editor that he should be topic-banned and is pushing fringe beliefs." Uhh, because it's true? User:Phmoreno has tried for awhile now to insert unreliable fringe and conspiracy sources into these Misplaced Pages articles. Like something called theconservativetreehouse or a conspiracy book by some guy from Alex Jones's Infowars show (I apologize ahead of time for those links) . . Here is Phmoreno referring to reliable, mainstream sources as " fake news propaganda" and asserting that we need to "tell what really happened" (i.e. push a nutty conspiracy theory on our readers) Here is another editor observing that Phmoreno is trying to push WP:FRINGE beliefs (User:Darknipples at bottom of section) Here is Phmoreno claiming that there has been a "failed coup d'etat" against Trump . I mean, if that isn't fringe wacky shit, I don't know what is. In this section when asked to provide sources for his fringe assertions, Phmoreno first replies "I don't have time", then provides this garbage. Just looks through that websites front page and tell me that someone who takes this shit seriously has any business editing articles on American politics. Etc. There's more examples of this WP:NOTHERE kind of behavior from Phmoreno that can be easily provided (let me know)
4. Ditto
5. Yeah... pointing out that we follow policies on Misplaced Pages is NOT WP:HOUNDING. But you know what might be? Filing bad faithed dishonest WP:AE requests.

Rusf10 makes the accusation that "BullRangifer routinely labels editors he disagrees with (particularly any that speak favorably about Donald Trump) as fringe and conspiracy theorists". No. BR does point it out when some editors try to use conspiracy theorists or fringe sources on Misplaced Pages. But that's the fault of the people who try to pull this stuff, not BRs. He does NOT "label editors he disagrees with" in GENERAL in such terms, neither routinely or otherwise. Rusf10 has not provided ANY evidence to support that false accusations so this constitutes a personal attack and WP:ASPERSIONS

This is WP:BOOMERANG worthy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Phmoreno - the diff you link to is a different diff that Rusf10 linked to that I was discussing. So your "Actually" is kind of... false.

It is also utterly dishonest of you to claim that I said John Solomon is "garbage". I called THIS SOURCE YOU TRIED TO USE "garbage". Because it is. As is obvious with even a cursory glance at the article in question or the main website of whatever that is . Please retract your false statement.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

And dude, your whole "I will do a presentation" thing sounds like a freakin' super creepy threat. That alone should get you sanctioned.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:33, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Hey User:Rusf10, buddy. If you actually read my comment you'll note that it is chuck full of "evidence". There's a diff or link for everything. So stop pretending otherwise. You're not fooling anyone, people can read you know. You say "he did not support with diffs". Here is a diff I provided. Here is a diff I provided. Here is a link I provided to a relevant discussion (). Here is a a link I provided to a relevant discussion (). EVERYTHING I said was diff'd and supported. So stop lying. People can read.

And I did NOT accuse you of "not providing evidence". Buddy. I accused you of providing FALSE evidence. As in claiming a diff says one thing, when it actually says another. For example - again - you claim that in this diff BR accuses Burr of "lying". He does not. He says something else.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:46, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Please note that after I pointed out that Phmoreno was making false claims about what I said he changed his wording to make it look like I was the one misrepresenting him. Not struck it. Changed it straight up. He's been around for a very long time, so he knows that that kind of thing is sketchy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:03, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

The groundless nature of Rusf10's request is detailed above, but I'll point out that Rusf10 himself has unclean hands in this topic area, perhaps to the point of WP:BOOMERANG. A few combative diffs from the past month:

• Accuses someone of muddying the waters, twice, for raising concerns over meatpuppetry. 4/11/2019 4/11/2019 (Note that the page now has 300/50 protection due to obvious meatpuppetry that was, in fact, occurring during that discussion; see discussion here.)
• Calls someone's summary of a source a strawman's argument. 3/25/2019.
• And the crusade against Fox News continues... 3/24/2019
• Again, you are so blinded by your own bias, you have no idea what you are talking about. 3/23/2019.
• On BullRangifer's talk page: I would be very careful with trying to promote conspiracy theories about why Roger Ailes created Fox News or what his intentions were. That's a BLP violation and consider yourself warned. 3/22/2019, in relation to . First, Ailes died nearly two years ago (putting him at the very limit of what BLP might be considered to apply to, even in far more extreme cases than this). Second, this aspect of his biography is well-established and extensively discussed in reliable sources; while it may not have universal support, it's not something that could be a WP:BLP violation. Threatening someone with BLP over it almost two years after Ailes' death is therefore an unambiguous abuse of process. He coupled this with a BLP sanctions warning; while such notices don't imply wrongdoing, it is hard to accept that Rusf10 thought that an editor as experienced as BullRangifer was unfamiliar with BLP or its sanctions - in other words, he was abusing process and notices to try and intimidate an editor.
• Please don't patronize me. 3/18/2019
• Your response is the exactly the reaction I expected. 3/18/2019
• If you're going to call me out, at least do so by name. 3/18/2019 Note that the editor was not, as far as I can tell, calling him out in any way.

Individually some of these are minor, but this is over the course of less than a month (and he wasn't hugely prolific in that time period); together they show an WP:UNCIVIL, combative style, a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to the topic area, a refusal to WP:AGF, and a desire to abuse process in an effort to intimidate or remove editors he disagrees with - especially BullRangifer in particular. --Aquillion (talk) 20:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Phmoreno

I agree with what Rusf10 presented.

In my upcoming lecture on propaganda and ideological subversion I will show the audience a screen projection of a Misplaced Pages Talk page on one of these anti-Trump articles and give examples of the standard tactics these propagandists use: attack the sources as being unreliable or not permitted when primary (both usually not supported by Misplaced Pages policy), slant the narrative by prohibiting anything that contradicts the left wing talking points and finally attacking editors who try to write something truthful. I will also show how contrary narratives are labeled as "conspiracy theories" or "fringe" or "far-right fringe", phrases which BullRanger uses with great frequency. (BullRanger will be one of the editors I will highlight.) After I gather feedback I will turn my presentation into an article and have it posted on a website that gets several million daily views.

In response to VolunteerMarek:

2. Marek takes issue with Rusf10: "suggest that block/bans are necessary for those who disagree" FALSE. Actually, the diff 4/12/19 states :* You're still calling RS "fake news"? That should earn you a topic ban for working against our RS policy. That repeated claim is evidence you are NOTHERE to follow our policies, but to push your fringe beliefs based on unreliable sources. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:01, 12 April 2019 (UTC) I was calling the article "fake news", not the sources (although there is a recent article listing 32 false claims by MS media on Trump topics); however, BullRanger needs to read the reliable sources policy. Notice BullRanger: attacks the sources, mis-states WP:RS, threatens me with a topic ban, labels my views "fringe beliefs".

3.1 Attacks my sources. Also fails to mention numerous times that I have cited The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal andThe Hill(John Solomon).

3.2 VolunteerMarek bends the truth about my statement by saying " Phmoreno first replies "I don't have time", then provides this garbage". I did post a reference and here is what I actually said:

I do not have time to post them all.

• 3.3(Calls John Solomon article "garbage". The article is about something Solomon wrote. Solomon is considered to be the leading reporter on this story.

In summary, editors like BullRanger have destroyed the credibility of Misplaced Pages Trump related articles. This has been pointed out numerous times on the Talk pages. The only good thing I can say is that this is such bad propaganda that it is recognized as such by any half informed or sensible reader.Phmoreno (talk) 03:12, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

1. "FBI email chain may provide most damning evidence of FISA abuses yet". Foxnews.com. 2019-03-25. Retrieved 2019-04-12.

Statement by Geogene

Phmoreno just made a threat that should result in an immediate indefinite block, under the same principle as WP:NLT (chilling speech). Geogene (talk) 03:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MrX

Masem, would you please move your comments out of the 'Results concerning...' section per the italicized instructions. You are involved in the recent disputes on the article.- MrX 🖋 12:21, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Masem, you are involved. In fact, you initiated a content dispute over the title of the page, giving your (incorrect, evidence-free) opinion that "This page must be moved back to "Spygate (conspiracy theory)" to avoid the immediate BLP problem, as well as to meet the conciseness needed for disambiguation terms, and in case anyone that gets here thinking this is the NFL one, a hatnote is sufficient to point them to the right direction." It doesn't matter how you arrived at the page, or that you "made no other discussion regarding content" (you have frequently weighed in on content disputes related to Donald Trump). You initiated a content dispute and now you are attempting to adjudicate a conduct dispute about participants in the content dispute. You can't do that. Is it going to be necessary to request clarification from Arbcom on this? By the way, this is not first time that I have protested about you violating WP:INVOLVED and ignoring the instructions on this page: This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators..- MrX 🖋 14:39, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

• Awilley, try harder. I have shown seven diffs of his direct involvement with the content. The evidence is crystal clear, but we can let Arbcom explain to the community why admins are allowed to flaunt policy and Arbcom procedures when it suits their content preferences.- MrX 🖋 19:45, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

(The following content was moved out of the uninvolved admin section. I still strongly disagree that in this specific content dispute I am involved for discussing the question of the article title, but rather not divert the discussion from the matter raised at AE --Masem (t) 20:05, 13 April 2019 (UTC))

• • Agree that there's no action either way, outside that all users are showing BATTLEGROUND behavior in regards to sourcing. We're not going to use sources that clearly fail RS, but at the same time, there is room to discuss the nature of how the RSes are reporting on the matter with regards to WP:YESPOV. Sticking to either of these points is inflaming the other view. Neither side is showing any compromise. Recommend TROUTs around, but caution that another flairup would likely require action across the board. (Comment: I have participated in a discussion related to the title of the Spygate page but make no claims or comments about this specific content dispute, so consider myself uninvolved to that point.) --Masem (t) 22:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
    • • To response to Mr. X above, I reiterate the point here: I do not consider myself involved in this specific content dispute: the only contribution on the page I did was when I saw the page title (as "Spygate (Donald Trump conspiracy theory)" appear at the edit warring noticeboard, and expressed concern that the page needed to be renamed to something shorter to meet naming policy and avoid the potential BLP. I'm also writing this response before I go to responde to a ping that named me regarding a name change on that page. I have made no other discussion regarding content and certainly not around the specific disputed area here. --Masem (t) 14:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

I think only diff #3 by BullRangifer maybe a little problematic, simply as criticizing another contributor on article talk page. However, that contributor was recently indefinitely blocked . All other comments by BullRangifer were either about content or comments on the WP:ANI which serves to discuss the behavior by other contributors. Therefore, I do not think any sanctions against BullRangifer would be appropriate here (agree with Sandstein). On the other hand, this is clearly a battleground request (the 3rd one) by the filer. Therefore, some sanctions against Rusf10 could be appropriate. My very best wishes (talk) 20:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

So, I would really recommend closing this case as "no action", especially taking into account that some of the admins are active in the area of US politics, which is good, but might create an impression of bias. My very best wishes (talk) 18:07, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

This whole AP2 fiasco has gotten way out of hand. The bias is obvious. It's sad to see our admins being pressured into making decisions they don't want to make but are forced to in order to keep the peace. It's no longer about maintaining NPOV for the sake of the project - it's a war between the left and the right unlike anything I've ever seen before in my lifetime, and I've been around a long time. Masem has been one of the most neutral and above-board admins I've seen since I became a WP editor, and he has not always decided in my favor. I've always believed that Sandstein was one of the few pragmatists we have left, and I've followed his decisions; all were based on what he believed was fair and reasonable. I like BullRangifer as a person and considered him a wikifriend but he has gone overboard and needs to be reeled-in. It's not just him - this obsession or hatred for Trump is tearing us apart, and it has to stop. Volunteer Marek is unrelenting, yet rarely are we seeing any decisive actions taken against them - the few times I've seen were shortlived. Glaring evidence has been presented but I already know what's going to happen - some of it already has, and it's sad because it hurts the project in the long term. _Talk 📧 22:03, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

Can I just point out a minor elephant in the room to slightly echo Atsme's statement? In many (most?) of these AP2 and other AE filings, you will see one constant. That constant is Volunteer Marek. I try to stay away from this area for that reason. As Atsme pointed out, VM is unrelenting, evidence has been presented, yet for some reason VM usually gets away scott free. We all know there are editors that have said they stay away from this area. We should not let it continue. Sir Joseph 15:52, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Thucydides411

I want to preface this by saying that I'm not calling for a block against BullRangifer. However, BullRangifer has a persistent habit of using talk pages as fora for long political statements, and they should be directed to stop doing so. When editors voice their political views so stridently on talk pages for political topics, it not only distracts from the work of editing, but gives the very strong impression that politics is driving content (rather than the usual Misplaced Pages policies).

I was moved to come here by the following recent comment by BullRangifer on the talk page for Spygate (conspiracy theory by Donald Trump):

Spygate does not refer to all alleged spying on the Trump campaign, and not all alleged spying on the campaign refers to Spygate. There was surveillance of specific individuals as part of the investigation into Russian interference, and that ended up including the whole campaign, including Trump. He is the chief suspect, the spider in the center of the web, whose spiders do nothing without his orders, or at least his approval. This was still not a politically motivated investigation, but was part of the investigation into Russian interference. Trump and his campaign members were obviously deeply involved with Russians and Trump clearly benefited from the interference. This included many secret meetings (with Trump literally trumping Don Jr and Kushner to issue a false press report about the Trump Tower meeting), and then lying repeatedly about all of it. All of this created justified suspicions that they were party to the interference and made all the investigations completely justified and legitimate. Never before has an administration and president acted in this manner. -

That sort of comment is really unacceptable, and it fits in with the pattern laid out by the diffs Rusf10 laid out in the initial complaint. I really defy any of the admins commenting below to tell me that calling Trump "the spider in the center of the web, whose spiders do nothing without his orders" is acceptable on a talk page. Please direct BullRangifer to stop using the talk pages as a political forum. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:57, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by JFG

The preventive sanctions placed by Awilley on both involved editors should address the behavioural issues, and they seem proportionate to me. Their actions will be under scrutiny for a year. No need to add any "punishment" sanctions on either side. — JFG 00:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning BullRangifer

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I would take no action because the request does not explain how these edits violate any applicable conduct policy - except for one allegation of "hounding", but a single edit cannot constitute evidence of this. Sandstein 21:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
  • (my response moved to above section --Masem (t) 20:05, 13 April 2019 (UTC))
    • I would still take no action. It is true that editorializing and politicking on a talk page is inappropriate. Talk pages exist to discuss source-based changes to articles, not to speculate about the motives, etc., of political actors (WP:NOTFORUM). But that does not rise to the level of requiring sanctions, unless it happens to such a degree that it disrupts useful discussion. This has not been alleged here. I also do not think that criticizing a prominent national politician (who, as a public figure, must expect all sorts of criticism) on a talk page violates BLPTALK to a degree requiring sanctions, even though, as mentioned, it is inappropriate. Likewise, I agree that editors must not attack one another. But they may tell others that their conduct is at odds with Misplaced Pages's values, as BullRangifer did when the now-blocked Phmoreno made blanket dismissals of reliable sources as "fake news propaganda". To the extent that BullRangifer may have been too confrontative, I think that they did not do so to a degree that warrants sanctions. Sandstein 13:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

• Just noting that I indefinitely blocked User:Phmoreno per User:Geogene. Phmoreno knows about NLT blocks and the chilling effect they have and his edit above and in his sandbox have the same effect and are unacceptable. Doug Weller talk 12:56, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

• It is hard not to see this report as a continuation of and . This is the third time in a year that Rusf10 has filed AE requests against Bullrangifer, and each time Bullrangifer gets criticized for making overly personal comments and Rusf10 gets criticized for filing contentious reports against ideological opponents. Since both sides have been warned multiple times about this (See here for Rusf10 being warned explicitly about WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and assuming bad faith) I have on my own initiative placed some limited discretionary sanctions on each editor, tailored to specific problems I see in their behavior. (Auto-boomerang for Rusf10 and No personal comments on article talk pages for Bullrangifer) I would also not oppose a boomerang here against Rusf10.
  Responding to MrX above, I don't see that as evidence of Masem's involvement, and I don't think that Masem has taken an unreasonable position here. ~Awilley (talk) 18:17, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with this approach, broadly speaking; both editors should disengage from this confrontation. I myself would not have used this kind of sanction which needs continued enforcement and supervision; but that's your decision. Unless other admins intend to take action, I think this can be closed now. Sandstein 20:18, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

• I intend to keep an eye on things. Also to be fair to Bullrangifer, asking BR to disengage from "this confrontation" implies that they were engaging in a confrontation with Rusf10, which I can't see was the case. BR's comments, at least the ones linked here, seem to have been mostly directed at User:Phmoreno and meatpuppets from r/The_Donald, not at Rusf10; and BR hasn't made any comments here at all. You can't get much more disengaged than that. ~Awilley (talk) 02:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• I also don't see anything actionable in this request, and would not be opposed to a boomerang. T. Canens (talk) 02:28, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
• Aquillion has listed some ten or twelve diffs divided into eight bullet points, purporting to show that Rusf10 has unclean hands in the topic area. I tend to agree. Some of Aquillion's diffs are minor, but as Aquillion points out they're over the course of less than a month, and during a period when Rusf wasn't especially active. I think that's interesting, and shows that Rusf's discourse is more or less dominated by aggressive posts, or, as Aquillion puts it, "shows an WP:UNCIVIL, combative style, a WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to the topic area, a refusal to WP:AGF". (I'm not sure about those diffs showing "abuse of process", though certainly this very enforcement request against BullRangifer, together with the two previous ones, suggests an effort to intimidate or remove BullRangifer in particular.) Looking through Aquillion's bullet list, it seems to me that this diff in bullet 2, directed at Volunteer Marek, is quite reasonable. The rest of Aquillion's diffs, which include stuff like "Again, you are so blinded by your own bias, you have no idea what you are talking about", "Your response is the exactly the reaction I expected" and "I would be very careful with trying to promote conspiracy theories about why Roger Ailes created Fox News or what his intentions were. That's a BLP violation and consider yourself warned" (I'm quoting the whole of Rusf's post on BullRangifer's talkpage, and italicizing the actual threats in it), are pretty awful IMO. Yes, I've read Rusf's special page supplying context for Aquillion's bullet points, but I don't see that it makes any difference at all. Also, reading Rusf's comments on that page, I was struck by Rusf's choice of sources to prove his points, such as here: New York Post (marked as "opinion", yet), The Hill (also marked as "opinion").

I also see (predictably unsuccessful) attempts by Rusf to badger Awilley about the special sanction Awilley has given them per above. It's unsurprising that people are upset when they're sanctioned, but this is just pure wikilawyering: "As per WP:ADMINACCT, I also would like to know specifically which of Aquillions you believe violated a policy and specifically which policy was violated". Now that I too have mentioned Aquillion, I'd better tell Rusf preemptively that Misplaced Pages doesn't have policies about every possible detail whereby talkpages and discussions can be blighted and made uncomfortable for other people. There is such a thing as a cumulative effect.

A couple of uninvolved admins — @Awilley and Timotheus Canens: — have mentioned the possibility of a boomerang. I'm for it, myself. Not sure what form it should take, though. A topic ban from AE? A logged warning? Anybody? Bishonen | talk 20:10, 18 April 2019 (UTC).

The auto-boomerang Awilley has applied seems sufficient to me. GoldenRing (talk) 10:05, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Philip Cross

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Philip Cross

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

GoldenRing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Philip Cross (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Editing_restrictions#Philip_Cross : Philip Cross is indefinitely topic banned from post-1978 British politics, broadly construed. This restriction may be first appealed after six months have elapsed, and every six months thereafter. This sanction supersedes the community sanction applied in May 2018.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. diff Blocked for violation

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Named in an arbitration remedy.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

A non-autoconfirmed user, User:Guantolaka, has posted an edit request at WT:AE due to the restriction on non-AC accounts making reports here. Ordinarily I would dismiss a request which is an editor's first edit but the editor claims to have been directed to do so by the committee. I have contacted the arbitration committee by email and verified that there is a plausible reason for a newly registered account to be making such a request (though the reason is not public) and that they did indeed direct the editor there.

Over the past few days, Philip Cross has been making a number of edits to Indictment and arrest of Julian Assange. Guantolaka contends that this falls under the topic of British politics from which Philip Cross is banned and so these are violations. I left a note on Philip Cross's talk page advising him to be careful around the edges of his ban, but this does not seems to have led to any change.

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other whether these are violations of the ban and would like other uninvolved admins to weigh in please.

Follow-up: @NorthBySouthBaranof: I share your concerns entirely. Indeed I came very close to simply blocking the account as NOTHERE and only the claim to have previously sought advice from the committee stopped me. Nonetheless, we are here to enforce the decisions of the committee and so if they want to allow a particular user an exception to their own rules then I think we need to hear it. I don't think this should be seen as setting a general precedent that non-AC users can post requests at WT:AE; only that the committee has overriding jurisdiction over this page and can authorise it in particular cases if they so choose. The committee have assured me privately that there is a plausible reason for the user to be interested in Philip Cross that doesn't involve previous Misplaced Pages activity. I'm still not sure that doesn't add up to NOTHERE, but it's enough that I'm happy to give them a chance to prove otherwise.

On the substance, I largely agree with Masem that Assange is a political figure largely unrelated to UK politics who happens to be in trouble in the UK criminal justice system; that doesn't make the page about British politics. The only thing that gives me pause is Pawnkingthree's point that the decision over extradition is eventually one made by a politician, but even then it's not necessarily made by a politician; a judge might still rule out extradition and we're a long way from that point, and it could be argued that the home sec here acts in a quasi-judicial capacity, not a political one. It's certainly not a question that parliament could settle (doing so would pretty much amount to an act of attainder, which, while still theoretically possible, hasn't been used in at least 190 years and would probably be a breach of article 6 of the EU convention on human rights). GoldenRing (talk) 08:42, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

@Sandstein: I emailed the clerks-l list (probably the wrong forum but did so from habit) and got a response from Joe Roe. I believe that, for privacy reasons, you're unlikely to get a fuller response than I have outlined here, but you can only ask. GoldenRing (talk) 10:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

@Guantolaka: Let me try to explain this to you. When I see a brand-new account making an AE request as their first edit, I immediately wonder what exactly you're trying to achieve with it. Are you here to further some off-wiki dispute with PC? Are you pushing some angle on Wikileaks / Assange? Are you yourself trying to obliquely influence the content of some article? Basically, why do you care if Philip Cross has violated his topic ban? I just can't think of an innocent reason for you to take an interest. Editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege extended to people so that they can help to improve it; if that's not why you're here then we're not really interested in your contributions and the normal response is to block your account. Likewise, arbitration is not a venue for obtaining justice per se but for resolving disputes between editors and facilitating the smooth running of the community so that the primary activity of improving the encyclopaedia can carry on. It's not obvious to me that there needs to be a way for those outside the community to influence the internal processes of the community. There is no dispute between editors to resolve here because you are not one.

I realise some of that comes across as a bit hostile to you but I'm trying to explain why we are reluctant to entertain this request at all. I think that if there were specific concerns with PC's edits, that would be a somewhat different matter, especially if you were (or were connected to) the subject of the edits. But when you just turn up pointing out (what you perceive to be) topic ban violations, it leaves me very much wondering what your motives are. GoldenRing (talk) 14:38, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

@Guantolaka: As I said, I was trying to explain how this looks from my perspective. To answer your question, I care about your motives because I care about the smooth running of the project, and one way of looking at your actions here is to see someone stirring up trouble where otherwise there would be no trouble. I'm not yet sure that this is an accurate view of things, but your response doesn't do a lot to persuade me otherwise. GoldenRing (talk) 08:55, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@NSH001: Politicians comment on all sorts of things. There has been extensive commentary on Honda's decision to close down a factory; that doesn't make the factory an inherently political topic. The decision to close down coal mining in the UK was a political one; that doesn't make Coal mining in the United Kingdom an inherently political topic. Railways in the United Kingdom were government owned and run for decades; that doesn't make British Rail an inherently political topic. Jacob Rees-Mogg has argued publicly that Somerset should be in a different time-zone, fifteen minutes behind the rest of the country; that doesn't make Time zone (or Somerset) a political topic. Nor does commentary from politicians make Assange's indictment and arrest an inherently political topic. GoldenRing (talk) 14:50, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

(responding here for clarity) This is an example of the straw man fallacy. See my section below. --NSH001 (talk) 08:41, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• diff

Discussion concerning Philip Cross

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Philip Cross

Statement by Guantolaka

Thank you for filing the request, GoldenRing. I fail to understand comments that say this page does not "relate to British politics". Here are some quotes taken from the page:

• '...the British Foreign Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, ... and British Prime Minister Theresa May, who commented that "no one is above the law," are in support of the arrest.'
• 'Ecuadorean president Lenín Moreno said in a video posted on Twitter that he "requested Great Britain to guarantee that Mr Assange would not be extradited to a country where he could face torture or the death penalty. The British government has confirmed it in writing, in accordance with its own rules."'
• 'British Veterans for Peace UK call british government to « respect the rights of journalists and whistle-blowers and refuse to extradite Julian Assange to the US'

Cross edited the page containing the text above and removed an article with title 'Protesters Call on UK to #FreeAssange Outside British Embassy in DC'

I'm not questioning his edits here, merely pointing out that this is very much in the realm of British politics, and Cross "is indefinitely topic banned from post-1978 British politics, broadly construed."

NorthBySouthBaranof: Assange has been in the UK for a long time, he's now in a UK prison. It's a pretty big political story in the UK. Hardly a small matter a politician has happened to comment on in the press. As for striking my comment, I made an edit request in talk as advised by the arbitration committee, and rules for commenting here appear to be that "All users are welcome to comment on requests." Guantolaka (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Masem: The wording of the topic ban is "indefinitely topic banned from post-1978 British politics, broadly construed." Guantolaka (talk) 22:29, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Masem, I'm pretty sure that a narrow focus on "connectivity" to a "sitting member of the UK government" is not what the topic ban is about. The wording of the ban certainly doesn't give that impression. Also, your own view of whether Assange is a political figure in UK circles is surely irrelevant to the fact that the situation he finds himself in in the UK is highly political. He was arrested by UK authorities, is in a UK prison, and the UK government is involved in deciding extradition, as Pawnkingthree points out. Guantolaka (talk) 08:51, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing: The Philip Cross arbitration case started because people noticed a certain pattern of editing and brought attention to it from outside Misplaced Pages. Given that, and my view that there was never great enthusiasm within the Misplaced Pages community to address the problematic editing until it reached arbitration, it seems reasonable to expect enforcement requests to come from outside Misplaced Pages too. There needs to be a way for this to happen. If it can't happen via email, can't happen via posts to this page, and can't happen via edit requests through the talk page, how is it supposed to happen?

Sandstein: I'm not a Misplaced Pages editor trying to evade anything. Please see my reply to GoldenRing about how someone is supposed to raise concerns if you are so intent on shutting any attempt to do so down. Guantolaka (talk) 09:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Sandstein, I'll ask again: How is someone who is not a Misplaced Pages editor but wants to request enforcement go about doing it without being accused of being a "single-purpose account" or of "evading scrutiny or sanctions"? Guantolaka (talk) 13:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

NSH001: Thanks for the link and quote. I don't have time at the moment to look to see if there have been additional violations. This instance was brought to my attention and I see it as a clear breach, so I wanted to request enforcement.

For those still doubting if this relates to British politics, here are some additional links showing discussion in House of Commons, comments from the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the Home Secretary, the Shadow Home Secretary, and how a change of government in the UK could affect Assange's fate: , , , , Guantolaka (talk) 12:29, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing: I don't understand the issue around whether I'm trying to score points or not. Put another way, why do you care why I care if Philip Cross has violated his topic ban? Why does it matter who raises this? If it's a breach, surely there needs to be some action taken? You've already had other Misplaced Pages editors who are active on the site agree that it is a breach, and yet you continue to focus on my motives. Like I said before, I contacted the arbitration committee, they suggested I come here.

As for your statement that "Editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege extended to people so that they can help to improve it; if that's not why you're here then we're not really interested in your contributions" the implication here is that the topic ban itself was not put in place to improve Misplaced Pages, and so raising violations is also not an attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. I hope you realise that people who find the kind of editing Philip Cross was banned for see the banning as action taken to improve Misplaced Pages, not simply annoy administrators who want to protect long-standing editors.

If I understand the topic ban correctly, the issue is not about his edits, but about the topics he edits. So your statement "if there were specific concerns with PC's edits, that would be a somewhat different matter" is a non-sequiter.

But on that matter, I'll add that this isn't the first time that admins have attempted to shut down violations by going after the user making the report, rather than addressing the report itself. Icewhiz linked to the previous case but conveniently characterised it as about an "entertainment figure" rather than a political figure, a political documentary, a political journalist and people whom Cross was found to have conflict of interest editing. Guantolaka (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing, I admit that I found your previous response quite patronising. My view of arbitration decisions and enforcement are that they are procedural matters. Either there is a breach of the topic ban based on the decision taken by the arbitration committee or there isn't. I fail to see how reporting what I consider a breach to be "stirring up trouble". If you don't think the topic ban is warranted, can you please take that up with the arbitration committee instead of arguing with me about it. If you don't think there has been a breach, I'd appreciate it if rather than questioning my motives, you'd argue with reference to the the arbitration decision.

I hope you also realise that when you write "one way of looking at your actions here is to see someone stirring up trouble where otherwise there would be no trouble", you are essentially saying you'd prefer to turn a blind eye to arbitration decisions. I'm sure that would mean less trouble for you, but surely a topic ban is not merely a symbolic action? Guantolaka (talk) 10:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

If the standard for being connected to "post-1978 British politics" is "anything that a politician has ever commented on in the press," I think that's a standard which is far too broad and unenforceable. I'm also concerned about allowing a clear breach of the AE rules - we have here a complaint not by a member of the community in good standing, but an anonymous single-purpose account created specifically to complain about a long-established user. Their comment should be struck. We don't need possible scrutiny-evading socks participating in these processes; even if this is not a sock, it seems to me that creating an account solely to complain about someone else is a violation of WP:NOTHERE. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:07, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

The precedent being set here - that ArbCom can permit unaccountable anonymous SPAs to file administrative complaints about long-standing users - is, in my opinion, a pernicious one. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Pawnkingthree

This looks like a breach of the topic ban to me - the decision as to whether Assange is extradicted to Sweden or the US is a political one, made by the Home Secretary. Philip Cross should have stayed away from anything to do with Assange as it clearly touches UK politics. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by NSH001

This is a clear breach of the topic ban. Assange's effective imprisonment in the Embassy has been an issue in British politics since he moved in there – and even before that with the UK's response to the EAW. If there is a general election before the courts decide the extradition request, then there is a real possibility that Corbyn will become PM and block the extradition to the US (but not to Sweden, if that is revived). So it is very much an issue in British politics.

I suspect there are other instances of Cross abusing borderline cases (he really hates peace activists, and anyone who opposes the neocon lying-to-start-wars-or-military-conflict agenda) but I haven't got the time to plough through hundreds or thousands of edits to find some examples (plus I try to stay away from places like AE and ANI). It would be helpful if someone could do that. Guantolaka? --NSH001 (talk) 10:34, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

From Julian Assange should not be extradited to US - Jeremy Corbyn (BBC).

The BBC's diplomatic correspondent James Landale said backing Assange is not without political risk and will not find universal favour among Labour MPs - but Mr Corbyn's intervention "means the battle over Assange's future will now be as much political as it is legal".

Plenty of other sources can easily be found with a google search. --NSH001 (talk) 12:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing, your edit of 14:50, 17 April 2019 (UTC) is a classic straw man argument – those instances don't determine whether or not the article relates to British politics; it clearly is related, and I even gave you a quote from an impeccable source (the BBC's diplomatic editor) illustrating that that is indeed the case. --NSH001 (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Pushing the limits

Cross is exhibiting a persistent behaviour of pushing the limits of his topic ban. Unfortunately he got away with it last time, but only because the filer of that complaint made a stupid mistake. We need to be firm about enforcing the topic ban, otherwise we will just have to waste our time yet again with complaints of this nature. We cannot allow this behaviour to be repeated. --NSH001 (talk) 08:00, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Icewhiz

Assange and his extradition are first and foremost related to US and Ecuadorian politics. It may become (or perhaps is becoming) a UK political issue - however this being a UK political at present? Hard to see it as such, even if Corbyn reacted. At the moment - article revision as of 17:03, 16 April 2019 - the only thing that seems related to UK politics is Corbyn appearing in a long list of names ("This view is held by Edward Snowden, Daniel Ellsberg, Rafael Correa, Chelsea Manning, Jeremy Corbyn, Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch, and Glenn Greenwald...) in the reactions section. Cross' edits to the article (linking only non-minor ones) - - are unrelated to UK politics.

Philip Cross, as evident in past requests here - e.g. this one from 17 Jan 2019 regarding an entertainment figure - is under a bit of scrutiny by people who don't regularly edit Misplaced Pages (or are occasional editors). This is also apparent in a cursory search in relevant social media. Cross, who has positively contributed in the almost year since his TBAN, should consider appealing his sanction. In any event he hasn't breached anything here.Icewhiz (talk) 12:28, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Philip Cross

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I would take no action. Neither the article nor the edits relate to British politics. Assange is a political figure and a topic of political controversy, but more of international politics, rather than specifically British politics. Sandstein 17:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with the concerns by NorthBySouthBaranof, and invite Guantolaka to promptly provide reasons why they should not be indefinitely blocked for (one has to assume) misusing multiple accounts in order to evade scrutiny of their prior editing history, or any applicable blocks or sanctions (WP:SCRUTINY). Sandstein 09:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
• GoldenRing, could you inform us which member(s) of the Arbitration Committee have told you that Guantolaka's participation at AE is appropriate, so that we can ask them to confirm this here on-wiki and to indicate why? Sandstein 09:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
• Joe Roe, is it possible for you to explain why, as a member of ArbCom, you consider it appropriate to - as an editor above puts it - "permit unaccountable anonymous SPAs to file administrative complaints about long-standing users"? Sandstein 10:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: A couple of points. First, I replied to GoldenRing and, if I remember correctly, also to Guantolaka, but the content of the response was discussed and approved by the committee as a whole (I'll ping Opabinia regalis as another arb involved). Second, I don't think it's my/our role to "permit" editors to do anything. Guantolaka contacted us with a report; we referred them to AE. They pointed out that they couldn't edit AE as an anon./non-AC user; we suggested an edit request. That was based purely on our understanding that, usually, when a user can't do something because of account restrictions, we provide a way for them to request that someone else do it on their behalf. My apologies if that's not the practice at AE, but as far as I'm aware it's not written anywhere.

I don't want to step on AE's toes, but personally I don't think the hostile, accusatory response to the filer here is warranted. What should matter is whether an arbitration sanction has been breached and if so what enforcement is appropriate, not the relative edit counts of the parties. – Joe (talk) 11:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

• Joe Roe, thanks for the clarification. It seems to me that the concerns expressed here with respect to Guantolaka aren't about their edit count per se, but that they are a single-purpose account who has only made edits with respect to this enforcement request, which strongly suggests some form of evading scrutiny or sanctions. I'd like to hear from other admins about whether a block on this basis would be appropriate. Sandstein 13:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

• Yes let's hear from others, but I would argue strongly that the suggestion of evading scrutiny is not enough for a block. – Joe (talk) 13:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

• No action, given the diffs. Agree that while at some point there is an interaction of Assange/Wikileaks to UK politics due to information that was leaked, the article about his asylum and arrest and likely subsequent trial is not "broadly" about UK politics. --Masem (t) 22:25, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Guantolaka, there's a limit to what "Broadly" is taken as. Assange has little connectivity to any sitting member of the the UK government; as Sandstein points out, Assange may be a political figure, he's not a political figure in UK circles as much as within US ones. (Or another way to state this, if we were doing with the AP2 (American politics) case, I would definitely consider Assange in the "Broadly" of that topic. But for the UK, not really. Being under arrest by UK authorities is not the same as involvement in UK politics. --Masem (t) 22:55, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
  • As another point, the extent of these edits (several being small copyedits, the others removing sections on protests in favor of Assange that are poorly sources (non-usable RS, not unsourced) are all reasonable edits. I know if this did fall under the topic ban, even such edits would be a problem, but as this is very much an edge case, I think that also merits review. If the edits were to include more UK political positions as related to Assange, then you might have something, but these are definitely edits with zero association to UK politics in their core material. --Masem (t) 13:29, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
• I would not take action here either. I appreciate the concerns about WP:BITE, but in the absence of further evidence, the most parsimonious explanation here is that we have someone attempting to score points in an old feud by using a new account to report what is at best a marginal violation of the topic ban. I don't know that I'm ready to block Guantolaka, but I'm definitely not willing to sanction Philip Cross either; under the circumstances, any violations would have to be quite egregious before I'd be willing to reward "gotcha" behavior of this sort. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

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