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This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Archives

Talk:Terry Goodkind/Archive 1

Note to new readers

This page changes very frequently, and it is difficult to read chronologically. Make sure to look through the archive as well to get a sense of whole page. Personally I have found the easiest way to keep up to date on changes is to use the compare versions feature (duh!) but you may want to go back to mid-July to get a sense of the changes and issues of the page. WLU 12:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

Does anyone have a good source for the number of books sold by Terry Goodkind? Options include: http://www.prophets-inc.com/news/ or http://www.scglit.com/press.htm or http://www.prophets-inc.com/the_author/ 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mystar thinks that the figure should be 20 million based on figures from TG, I would like a figure that is justified more independently verified. I've checked the above links, and I can't find any reference to the 20 million figure. Mystar, can you provide a link to the 20 figure, or instructions on how to reach it? WLU 02:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest using the exact TOR figure and simply making a notation that the number does not include many foriegn sales and then citing it. Sound reasonable? NeoFreak 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me!Mystar 04:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Then unless any other editors have a issue with it I think we can implement that change post mediation? NeoFreak 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem - checked the citation and it doesn't link to TOR, it links to TG's page. How about changing the text to say "According to the author's website". I feel like I'm on a treadmill. WLU 16:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The figures are not from TOR's website, they are from TG's. The best way to represent this is through stating it is from his website. It is not Tor's figures, it's TG's. Writing this in the page accurately represents the source. Consensus was reached on the TOR figure, but the figure is not from TOR, it's from TG. If you've got links to TOR's figures, provide them, otherwise it is a lie to say they come from TOR. WLU 02:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer if we could cite TOR because it looks bad if we're constantly referencing TG's website. As it is now I think WLU is right but I really think it would benefit the article if we could get numbers from TOR. Can we? NeoFreak 05:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

SO what? just because you don't like a thing doesn't mean it isn't a fact. It is factual and you know it. you may wish to deny it but that is illrelivent. It was agreed upon and that is good enough for me. DO we need to go back to citing Galen's web site? that creditable and I'll be more than happy to include that figure... Mystar

I don't understand why you're getting all upset. I want to include the statement but it would be alot easier if we could directly cite TOR and not just the author's website. I don't doubt it's a legit statement but encyclopedias and I have diffrent standards. NeoFreak 07:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

TOR may say 20 million to TG, that may be a fact, but it is an unverifiable fact, making it essentially useless for this entry. I'm not denying that he sold 20 million, I'm saying that it should be referenced as coming from TG rather than TOR. There are four options - we can take it out completely. We can leave it as is, saying it is the author's site. We can use the SCG link - that's to his agent's site. I e-mailed Galen (his agent), he said that the 50 million is a mis-print, then gave an estimate of 20 million. But it's an e-mail, I'm not giving up my e-mail address, and there's no real justification for using it since he made it clear it's a guess and therefore unverifiable. Or we can use one of the two links above that essentially link to TG sites, one of which says 10 million, the other says 20. Let's stick with 20, and say it's from the author. It sucks that we can't get official figures, but we can't, so either take it out completely (dumb) or leave it as and say it is coming from the author. I've e-mailed TOR and haven't heard back from them yet, so that's out unless they get back to me. Plus it's unverifiable unless they give me a weblink. I say leave 20 million, citing TG's website. We use it a lot, but at least it's verifiable, and if we note that it comes from TG then people can make their own decisions on whether to believe it or not. Oh, and I'm going to be brining up the 'best known for wildlife' next, I'm still disagreeing with that. Tah!

Mystar: In reference to your comment "I see you have a problem with using TOR. As this is where we get these numbers from to post on the official web site" Tor is not mentioned in relation to the 20 million figure, the only reference to Tor is in the reference given for WFR. Therefore, there is no reason to think that Tor provided those figures, they are coming from TG as far as any reader is concerned. WLU 13:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi mystar, you said "What you think is irrelevant, what we have agreed by consensus is". Consensus has not been reached. I am part of the consensus, and I disagree. Neofreak also disagrees with saying the numbers come from TOR. I can only assume this is because they do not come from TOR, they come from TG. There are two people who disagree with the idea that the 20 million figure comes from TOR, while you say it does. Now, since the reference provided links to TG's page, and not TOR's, and since it does not say on the page that the sales figures come from TOR, it is either passively incorrect (if we were merely mistaken) or active lying (if, as in this case, we know the figures come from TG rather than TOR) to state that TOR has said TG has sold 20 million copies of his novels. It is the truth to say that TG has said his series has sold 20 million. If you have a reference from TOR saying that TG has sold 20 million copies, put it on the page and we can stop editing to no purpose. Until then, please leave the page factually accurate, as it is now. WLU 18:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

You wanted "factually Accurate" We have a cited Source and it is factually accurate. Until you can dis-prove the source and facts please leave it alone. Removing it would be considered an act of vandalism, as you would be removing factual and cited source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystar (talk • contribs)

Why are you being like this? We were making so much progress here and now you're, for lack of a better descriptive, throwing hissy fits again. This is not contructive and we've all already agreed why this version of the introduction is inappropriate. NeoFreak 00:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

No.. "WE" didn't agree that at all. We did agree that what was up there was acceptable.. Suddenly WLU decides it is no longer good enough. I'm a bit tired of WLU's undermining of anything Goodkind. And his decided refusal to reveal his identity. He knows that to reveal who he really is would cast the true light to his reason for suddenly showing up and attacking Goodkind right off the bat. His familiarity wit the whole Misplaced Pages process, archiving, editing, procedures and code casts a great deal of suspicion as to his real identity and reason for suddenly appearing and attacking Goodkind... then moving to a few other pages in an attempt to dispell the truth.

Point is, we had a consensus and I for one could have lived with it. But WLU keeps pushing and it is more than obvious that he only wants to allow things that detract form Goodkind's work.

As I've stated we have a reputable source in the 50 Million and you cannot refute it. It is sourced and creditable. I'm happy either way. We use Galen's source or we keep the 20 million and the fact that it doesn't include many of his foreign sales...as it was before WLU wrongfully changed it...

Again I've read all your incerts and as I've said... the Galen edit meets ALL that criteria! SO that tells me you are in violation of Wiki standard and policy. then it woudl be you and WLU who are vandalising the page. Please stop!

Mystar 01:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the point of discussing any of this with you until you can find a way to frame your arguments about content without accusations and charges of conspiracy and ill intent. I'm just sick to death of it. I know alot of people don't like Goodkind, I know alot of people don't take Objectivism seriously, I know alot of people mock Goodkind on the internet and I know that this page has been the target of vandals in the past. None of this is an excuse to act like that. I'm just done with it. NeoFreak 01:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, now perhaps some real work can be done with out all your nit picking. I happen to be in it for the long haul. I'm not someone who (by your own admission) wandered over because he didn't like that someone else edited his sacred page. The fact of the matter IS that these Goodkind pages are full of improper information, Book sales just isn't one of them. You, et al simply don't want to allow anything of content that shines a positive light on Goodkind or his works...thus the fight to try and keep out the 50 million figure, which is and has been properly sourced and cited...according to policy! That you don't like it is not the issue. The issue is it adheres to policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mystar (talk • contribs)

Mystar, do you ever actually read anything? Your arguments and reasoning haven't changed since the the page first started changing. Read my reasoning, and say why you disagree. Also the fact that there's three different figures means we can't rely on any of them without further confirmation. Go back and read WHY I am making the edit, then come up with some real objections. By the way, who are you? Your user page has no identifying information on it, I can't find an e-mail point, get over it, it doesn't matter who you are, it matters what you say. And you don't say anything, you just cast aspersions and freak out if people don't agree. That is not how you justify editing, that's just weak. Get over it. I have never made a personal attack on you, you have caused what, three people to quit editing because of your irrational overreactions and constant blocking of actual improvements and justified information? Get a clue, you suck at this, read the policies and actually justify what you are editing. WLU 12:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, look everyone, I'm going to propose a new way to write the introductory sentence that maybe everyone can agree upon. It would read like this:

Terry Goodkind (born 1948) is a contemporary American writer and author of the best-selling epic fantasy series, The Sword of Truth, which has sold over 20 million copies.

What I did was two things:

1: I removed the "according to the author's website" bit. Let the reference speak for itself. When you actually visit the link, the first thing you see is "Terry Goodkind - The Official Website", so why don't we just let the reader decide whether or not to trust that link.

2: I removed the whole sentence "However, these numbers may not include many of Goodkind's foreign book sales." Since Terry, Russ, and everyone here seems to agree that there is no verifiable source for the number of foreign sales Terry has, then let's remove that statement entirly. That way, everything we state is completely true, that he has "sold over 20 million copies".

Let me know what you guys think. - Runch 16:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I second Runch. NeoFreak 19:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a second-best solution, but a solution I'm willing to accept. Users have to go an extra step to see a weak source, and there is no warning that it is a biased (and therefore, poor) source. I would like to see what Mystar's reasoning is to keep it as a reference from TOR rather than TG, call it morbid curiosity. WLU 19:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally I prefer the 50 Million as it is sourced. As for "who "I" am", I'm well known, All anyone has to do is to look on any Goodkind website and find ALL my personal information, unlike you WUL who is specifically trying to hide your true identity for reasons we both know. Just because you live in Canada doesn't mean you can't be tracked. Mystar 19:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

All of the numbers are sourced, they are just badly sourced. If we put any of the numbers in, since none of them are third-party sources, I think there should be a note indicating the figures are from the author (or agent for Galen), not the publishing company or another independent source. Since Galen, the souce for the 50 million figure, said it was incorrect, it's pretty much out in my mind, but he did guess at a figure of 20 million. However, since it is up to everyone else to trust that I'm telling the truth that I got an e-mail from Galen, we can't use my word to discount it. Since the other two figures are lower, they contradict the 50 million figure as well. Best might be simply leaving total book sales out of the article completely until we can find a proper, trustworthy reference, or put in all three, plus the three sources with a statement about where they come from. Also a problem is that two of the figures are from TG himself I think, and they contradict each other or one is considerably older than the other. He is a NYT bestseller, so that's pretty good bragging rights right there, and it's totally verifiable. As for your usual comments about my identity, see my user page, where I will rebut them, using logic, which you will ignore. Incidentally, why do you prefer 50 million? Do you have a reason which might be convincing? Please, I am eager to hear it. If you have anything substantive to say, please do so, but if you're going to rant again, don't bother, use your own talk page for that. WLU 00:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems there hasn't been much squabbling on this issue the past few days. Has everyone accepted the current version in the article (meaning I can take down the dispute tag), or should I make the edits I proposed earlier in this section? (For the record, I do think the current version is factually acurate, based on the sources we have). - Runch 15:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I made one more tweak to the wording for flow without changing the content. I don't have a problem with it as is with the sources we have. NeoFreak 16:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Well since the disagreement over the sentence about TG's foreign sales continues, I went ahead and removed it entirely as I proposed earlier in this section. Realistically, I think it's the best course of action, since we have no reliable sources regarding his foreign sales. Better not to mention anything than potentially distribute misinformation. - Runch 23:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Work

There is an ongoing debate about his work and influence. Older items have been archived, what is current remains below 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I happen to have several prints of Goodkind's work in my home and IF you have any of the SOT books you also have some of his work there as well. Goodkind painted the leaf pattern on the inside pages of the first few books. It took him 50+ hours to do that piece, as it is a very difficult piece of work. dot, painting and shading is not the easiest thing to do. The image of Cara of Temple of the Winds is also a piece of Goodkind's work, but that is nothing compared to the real work he has done with realistic marine and wildlife paintings. He has several shows at various galleries, his last painting titles Penguins on Ice http://www.terrygoodkind.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2045 sold for over for over $30,000.00 ten years ago, and was just resold for over $200,000.00 earlier this year. Mystar 03:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's good enough for me but having a link to the sale, a independant site/gallery/etc or anything else along those lines will go a long way. I'm not inclined to believe that there is an elborate hoax set up to decieve people into thinking his is a commissioned artist when he is not. Without a thiry party reference though the wording should read "Terry Goodkind has claimed" or words to that effect. Still, I see no problem including it in the article. NeoFreak 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Symbolism

There was a section on symbolism that has not been touched since 2005. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

First off I think all this should go to the SoT pages and not the TG page. Secondly there is no doubt that the books are infused with Objectivist symbolism and TG has stated as much in interviews and online chat (has he not?) plus it's just in your face obvious. Just make sure it get sourced and it shouldn't be a problem to include it as it is relevant to the subject. NeoFreak 03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Previous careers

Some individuals discussed previous careers, such as hypnotist and formula one driver.

Mystar was going to provide proof and references to this, which will add to the page if they are available. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a better link where Goodkind actually states his career as an artist. Also a link to a better interview. :)--Mystar 18:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Philosophical Views!

Terry Goodkind puts a lot of objectivist philosophy in his books. Some find it preachy. Goodkind's response on an on-line chat was: Goodkind explained to those present who had criticized his writing style with such harsh criticism of the base philosophy and the moral and ethical values contained within the series, saying that they were not fans, and that they hated that his novels existed. He also claimed "their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good... These people hate what is good because it is good." We have seen the full effect and thuth of this fact by the attacks against the values with in the series, against the moral and ethicial set the characters uphold. Mystar contested this, there was some back and forth, the debate is ongoing and as of August 28th, 2006, was reflected in the article itself below. Stuff from June and before was archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Photo

There was discussion whether the photo in the article was recent. Mystar stated that it was, and provided several other pictures to put up if people wanted. There were no takers, and the photo seen as of August 28th, 2006 was the same one that has been up for a while. The other photos are below. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There was also a brief discussion circa April 2006 about TG editorializing. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A discussion of cleaning up the discussion page. I'm doing so, archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Alienus and Mystar

A long dialogue between these two posters. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Mystar's Edits

A dialogue between Runch, Mystar and Werthead dating July 2006 initially about archiving rather than deleting the talk page. Soon moved past this point. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent Edits

THis section was not changed since July, so I moved it into the archive. WLU 20:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor Quibble

A discussion of TG work with marine and wildlife paintings that was never replied to, by Runch. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy Author or Novelist?

Took out an initial section that discussed why TG could be categorized as a fantasy author. Archived. Left in some other bits of continuing comment. 64.230.1.241 04:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This section has been quiet for several days, which is unusual for this page. I'll assume this means consensus has been reached for this section and am archiving the relevant discussion. WLU 16:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More Edits by Mystar

Mystar, aka IP 68.188.220.8, the recent edits made to the Terry Goodkind article were not vandalism. You can't revert them just because you didn't like the fact that the editor changed what you had initially written. In fact, reverting the edits in such a way IS considered vandalism. Look Mystar, I still firmly believe that you want to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, but it is obvious by your edit history that you just don't know how to go about doing so. I've looked at your contributions - and roughly 90% or more of them involve edits to Terry Goodkind and this talk page. If you're ever going to learn Misplaced Pages protocol and etiquette, I urge you to branch out. Look at other articles. Read help pages. Contribute and be involved in more than one topic. For starters, I'd suggest looking at some of these pages: • Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset - A simple rule book for new editors • Misplaced Pages:Vandalism - Defines what is and what is not vandalism • Help:Reverting - Lets you know when to use the revert function • Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot - Tips on how to discuss issues on talk pages • Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles - PLEASE read this help page. It is very pertinent to you. In addition, you may want to look at some articles on authors that have reached featured article status. Although Terry Goodkind is unique, looking at some of these articles may help you understand the direction in which we want to move for the article on Goodkind. Examples: Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Douglas Adams, to name a few. I hope you actually do take the time to look into some (or all) of the pages I have pointed out to you. They may help you become less possessive of this particular page on Goodkind, and I'm sure expanding your horizons will help you become a better Wikipedian. Sincerely, Runch 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Most of the edit in question that mystar reverted was indeed not vandalism, but it did add a few rather dubious things in the article which I have now attempted to correct. Firstly, there is the "essential sense of the word " thing - it is already inside a direct quote from TG, I see no reason for additional quote marks, nor do I understand what the "sic" is doing there. Secondly, the "though how this differs from any other novel is uncertain" or something to that extent; I don't think sarcastic commentary belongs in a Misplaced Pages article. If we are to discuss the credibility of Goodkind's statements, which I do not think is the intention of this article anyway, then surely we can find a more elegant way than just adding comments of that kind inbetween the quotations. I would assume that with those edits made, mystar has no further reason to revert as the rest of that edit seemed good. Paul Willocx 13:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Yes, I agree, thanks for your revisions. - Runch 14:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC) sic was there because he said 'word' when it refers to two words - fantasy author. 198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Would all of you kindly stop referring to me as "Wilcox"? Thank you. Paul Willocx 18:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

The edit warring on this page really has gotten to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I'd like to draw everyone's attention to: Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. Steps one and two (discussion and trying to "wait out the war") have proved ineffective, so at this point I'm going to make a request for informal mediation. If that proves ineffective in stopping the problems, I'm going to make a request for a formal mediation session. Should both of those steps prove ineffective, I will request arbitration, although I hope it need not come to that. Regardless of the way, I hope to finally put an end to this conflict. - Runch 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Sounds reasonable.198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC) As an outside observer and someone who has not invested any real time editing the TG article it would seem you are already at the point of needing moderation. Mystar is admittedly acting as Terry Goodkind's mouth piece and has taken the position of doing what ever it takes to change this article into what he and TG want it to be, breaking several rules along the way despite repeated warnings from some very patient editors. This is not TG's article, it is everybody's artilce about TG. NeoFreak 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC) I'll give the informal mediators a couple of days to see if they can help, but yes, I do forsee myself having to make a formal request for moderation or arbitration in the near future. - Runch 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 
I would think an immediate stop to all edits and a request for an admin to temp lock the article would be best. While no one is 100% happy with the article it won't kill anybody to leave it as is for a day or two until the mediation can begin. NeoFreak 21:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

References

I made some additions to the article, I think they really help out with the lingering NPOV issues. Anyway, we'll see if the edits stand up to the test of time. What I need help with is the references. For some reasons, they are appearing with the wrong numbers and some are appearing twice in the References section at the bottom of the article. I can't figure out what's wrong with them, maybe someone else can see what I did wrong? (The weirdest part is that they look perfectly fine in the preview, but in the actual save they go crazy. Go figure...) - Runch 19:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC) They look fine to me; the numbers match the sources used, and I don't see any appearing twice at the bottom. Where specifically do you see trouble? Brendan Moody 19:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC) Strange, maybe it's a problem with my browser or my cache. For example, the first reference appears as an instead of a . But as long as it looks right to everyone else, I don't have any problem with it. If anyone else sees it appearing strangely, then I'll go back to worrying about it. Thanks though, Runch 19:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Archive

198.96.2.93 added an archive box and removed a bunch of today's discussion but did not move it to an archive page. I've reverted that change and archived less recent material that doesn't seem relevant to the current disputes. If any user thinks some of the archived material should stay on this page, I invite them to restore it. The page is still pretty long, but given the ongoing issues I don't think further archiving is desirable. Brendan Moody 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone else thing this talk page is starting to get bloated again? Omnilord 02:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Official Moderation

Mystar, I repeat NeoFreak's question: Since informal moderation will most certainly not bring an end to this conflict, are you willing to take part in an offical mediation session? The decision is yours, but if you refuse to take part in an official mediation (as is your right), then I will make a request for arbitration. The arbitration is decided by the Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee, and their decision is final. This could include, but is not limited to, making changes to the article that neither of us wants, or having one or more Misplaced Pages editors banned from editing for an unspecified period of time. I will expect your reply within 48 hours, and I will make no changed to the TG article until then. If I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are unwilling to participate, and I will request arbitration. - Runch 20:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I second this. I really hope that Mystar is willing to engage in some mature dialouge about this through a mediation and it doesn't have to go to the level of an arbitration. If it does though I will support that as well as there will be no other choice. NeoFreak 20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I too would like to see Mystar, and also 198.96.2.93, participate in mediation. There's been too much edit warring in the article, and we need to have a civil discussion about various issues and come to a consensus so that a stable, mutually agreeable article will be produced. Brendan Moody 20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I am not here to pull strings or whatever it is called. I am just describing what I have read in this talk page. Mystar has been backed into a corner when he is right, and I have wiki-standard's to back that claim. As new to wiki as I am ( I just found the tilda signature thing today) I can't believe I am the one to cite this: Biographies of living persons. Jimmy Wales has said: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Without knowing it, Mystar has been adhering to this policy, and the Biographies of living persons standard. I would like to draw you're attention to the fact that in the face of unsourced, or poorly sourced, negative edits, the subject of the article or someone editing on their behalf has the weight when the matter is brought up. Now, here is the problem, there are not very many acceptable, professional grade sources to base a biographical page on this living person as he maintains a certain level of privacy. "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist..." Many of the edits not started by Mystar, which he has reverted, have the quality of trying to sensationalize mistaken and error information using mis-quotes and half-truths that are not viable tender in an encyclopedic environment. If you get you're facts right, Mystar will not challenge it. Remember, this is an article about a living person and as such you need to tread very cautiously when editing it because the subject of the article DOES have weight against what is said about them. While it discourages subjects from contributing, it does encourage subjects to correct erronious information and remove libel or insulting commentation that is not properly sourced. In this, Mystar has done nothing wrong, and has been doing things by the book. I suggest everyone review Biographies of living persons and make sure you have reviewed it, know it and understand it before you make a single post more. You can be sure that Official Moderation will go into this. Omnilord 01:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC) I'm very excited that you are persuing a constructive discussion Omnilord! This is exactly what belongs here. To start out I am familiar with the guidlines and rules dictating biographical articles on living persons. The message Jimbo was trying to convey is that all speculation and POV entires are to be deleted and not just tagged with a "". The three principl rules to govern any bio artilce (and really most others for that matter) are • Verifiability • Neutral point of view • No original research as is clearly labeled at the beginning of the referenced article. This is the point that the other editors and myself have been trying to drive home. Editor's opinions of Goodkind, his work or his stance on any issue are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. The refrencing of an outside or third party's opinion if it is relavent and citable is allowed. This current situation we find ourselves is in fact covered in Biographies of living persons and is repeated for ease of review here: "Well-founded complaints about biographical articles from their subjects arrive daily in the form of e-mails to the Misplaced Pages contact address, phone calls to the Foundation headquarters and to Jimbo Wales, and via postal mail. These people are justifiably upset when they find inaccurate or distorted articles, and the successful resolution of such complaints is a touchy matter requiring ongoing involvement of OTRS volunteers and paid staff." "Frequently the problem is compounded when the subject attempts to edit their own article to remove problematic content. Since such people may not be regular Wikipedians, they are unaware of our policies, and are often accused of vandalism or revert warring when they are in fact trying to edit in good faith." It further covers that all biogrpahies of living persons should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Concerning material that is defamitory to a living person (of which I have seen none) is covered quite simply as "Unverified material that could be construed as critical, negative or harmful in articles about living persons should be removed immediately, and should not be moved to the talk page. The same applies to sections dealing with living persons in other articles. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." This covers material such as "Many people think that Terry Goodkind likes to eat babies" or "Terry Goodkind is rumored to smell bad". This does not cover critacal review of his works. This also does not cover a group's opinion about him if it can be cited and is relavent as covered in Reliable Sources. 
Please see my comments below and review main page the edit history, again. NeoFreak 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I would be interested in participating in official moderation for this entry. 198.96.2.93 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I just wanted to notify everyone that I have filed a request for help from an official moderator, you can all view the request here. Everyone who was previously involved in discussion on this page and explicitly expressed interest in being involved in such moderation has been notified on their individual talk pages - please be sure to sign the request within the next 7 days. Also, read the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request - if you have additional issues, add them in the "Additional issues to be mediated" section. I want to make sure that everyone knows that moderation is a slow process, it will take time. Really though, all it is is having an additional cool head (belonging to a neutral party) involved in the discussion about how to improve the article. Specifically, we'll be addressing the issues listed in the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request. On a side note, I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts. I think that in the last 24 hours or so, everyone has been acting in a much more civilized and constructive manner. I like the fact that we're now placing proposed changes to the article at the bottom of this discussion page. Let's not forget that the moderator will only be here to help us - we can still try and write this article collectively on our own. We're finally getting somewhere, people, let's keep it up! - Runch 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not going to be as active now as I have been in the last two months, I am returning to deleware where I have time constraints on doing certain things like using the phone for internet. Edit when I can, Omnilord 23:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Temporary stop to all edits

This aritlce is again on the verge of an edit/revert war and that helps nobody. I would ask that all parties please stop editing until an offical mediation or arbitration can be completed and a consensus can be reached on this article. NeoFreak 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I'd like to remind everyone to keep in mind the need for civility in a stressful discussion like this one. I've seen recent comments from both "sides" that have been insensitive or rude. Regardless of how you feel those who disagree with you have behaved, please be as polite as possible and avoid further escalation. Thanks. Brendan Moody 17:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC) 
I've touched up some wording to reduce the level of bias as well as correct some factual errors in the bio section, namely that all his books are bestsellers. Having examined a number of archives, most especially the NYT bestseller archive provided by Hawes(now listed in references), I've found that all but two are on the list, and thus corrected the statement to appear as such. -Kedlav I don't really have a problem with the neutrality or tone of this article in a siginficant way any more. If no one else objects or still has an issue than I say we remove the POV template and resume some editing. The few edits that have been done in the past 24 hours are good edits and if that kind of thing continues I don't see any more big problems here. It's really looking alot better. NeoFreak 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Sounds good to me. - Runch 22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Notice regarding solicited participation

It has recently come to my attention that Mystar has been soliciting other Goodkind fans to participate in the discussion here. It is an official policy of Misplaced Pages that such advertising is considered highly inappropriate, and that participation only to further an individual agenda (rather than to improve the whole encyclopedia) is strongly discouraged. For more information on the topic, please see this page, which details the nature of and reasons for the relevant policy. This warning applies equally to anyone who comes here from Westeros.org or any other message board containing anti-Goodkind sentiment. This dispute has gotten large enough as it is, and the best way to resolve it is through participation from more experienced Wikipedians. Thank you for your understanding. Brendan Moody 03:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) 
in keeping with your advise/suggestion I have altered some wording to assure all parties involved that this is not happening. If anyone were to look about Misplaced Pages has been a bone of contention for ages. Asking for input and advise is not the same thing as asking fan's to participate. I expressly ask for no partipication, any kind of posting or any kind of action from any Goodkind fan's....only input. mystarMystar 04:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) Given the circumstances, I'm not sure it's such a bad thing, though I hope Omnilord will also contribute to other pages, the SoT-related ones if nothing else... actually, I just looked at his contribs, and it seems he has already done so in the past, and he had an account long before he interfered in the debate here. You might be talking about other people, who haven't posted here (yet), I suppose. Paul Willocx 09:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I've been on and off revising the articles related to terry goodkind since february. In fact all are in my watchlist. I've not been as active as maybe I should have been but other matters have been foremost in my attention, and Mystar has had (and still does have) my full confidence that he would handle matters adequately. I have also tried to just look in at least once every seven days just to be sure there hasn't been any new vandalism. Even though I am still adjusting to my new job and schedule, I will still try to make contributions toward this, I don't want to see anyone screwing up the facts when it comes to this particular subject matter. Omnilord 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Since we have the edit stop, a list of proposed changes

We can always make a list here of suggested changes that can be implemented after we end the edit stop, if there should be consensus (by which I also mean mystar and Omnilord) about them. I would suggest that people add their suggested changes here instead of in the article itself, but it seems the only people changing the article now are anons or users not involved in the talk page, so it seems unlikely that they'd read this. Oh well. So far I see two proposed changes: firstly, under "Influence", the sentence "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, reached number one on the New York Times Best Seller list, a feat which none of his previous novels had yet to achieve" is incorrect, so it is suggested to put "had achieved" instead. Secondly, anon sees POV in the same sentence, and wants to remove the words "feat" and "achieve", to be replaced by something like "a first for the author". Paul Willocx 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

All of Mr. Goodkind's books, with the exceptions of Stone of Tears and Wizard's First Rule have appeared on the New York Times Bestseller List.. -- proposed by Kedlav Paul Willocx 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

A minor, non-controversial edit: Add the link Legends (book) to the anthology Legends. - Runch 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Arbor makes another suggestion for that grammatical error: "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, is his first to have reached number one" etc. Arbor also suggests cutting the lines starting with "Although Goodkind" and ending on "is a little extreme", and I for one am inclined to agree. Paul Willocx 21:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed addition: Controversy over his similarities to certain elements of Robert Jordan's books? Maybe its too controversial without having enough merit to be worth it, but I think it is mentioned/debated enough among fans of both authors to be worth a mention, just so that people are aware the controversy does exist but that there is no solid proof either way. (RJ definately seems to feel that Goodkind is stealing from his works, as evidenced in some comments in his blog.) What do you guys think? -Nachosamurai sept 19, 2006

I don't think that is appropriate. Unless you can cite references such as reviews or other authors or people in the industry and the such that make cited notation of similarities it is conjecture and WP:OR. The fantasy genre is full of a lot cliches so any parallels between authors is pretty unavoidable and including it here , unsourced, comes off looking like an attack. NeoFreak 19:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I second Neo, and add that it's just asking for trouble. Even if you can find the references that aren't blogs, I think it's a bad idea to throw in without extensive discussion. Welcome to our dysfunctional little talk page, Nacho. Check out the archive and some of the more recent discussions for a taste of the issues dealt with on this page.

WLU 20:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Facts vs. Opinions

In all this discussion, it's hard to try and decipher what other people are thinking. Therefore, I'd like to post how I think we should deal with the mixture of facts and opinions that will undoubtedly comprise the "final draft" so to speak of the article. Part 1 - Facts: All pertinent facts should be included. For example, the Biography section should be nothing but facts. (ie. Goodkind has worked as a carpenter, a violinmaker, and a restorer of rare and exotic artifacts and antiques). Mostly facts are data. However, let me point out that some quotations can be facts as well. If Mr. Goodkind makes the statement "I am an Objectivist", then that is a fact - he, after all, would be the ultimate authority on the matter of his own beliefs. Sounds fine to me, as long as it is just facts, see huge post below, "My beefs" Part 2 - Opinions: Opinions are a crucial part of critical commentary, whether they are Mr. Goodkind's opinions or anyone else's. For example, let's say we have the quote by Goodkind stating that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy". This is an opinion, but it is important to the article. A critical commentary would then play out like this (just an example mind you): • Mr. Goodkind stated that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy" • Joe Reviewer 1 also believes that his novels have changed the face of fantasy • Joe Reviewer cites the heavy focus on philosophy and Objectivism as his reasons • Bill Reviewer 2 agrees with Joe Reviewer, but for different reasons • Bill Reviewer cites hordes of fans saying that the series is "wicked sweet" • John Reviewer 3 disagrees with the statement • John Reviewer 3 cites similarities to other fantasy novels, and previous novels with objectivist ties And that would be all we'd include. There wouldn't be any conclusions (so this would be different from your typical high school English essay), because conclusions would merely be our (the editors) opinions and would also fall under the category of original research. Anyway, that's how I was hoping to proceed with the article. Comments? Questions? - Runch 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) As long as there can be opinions to balance out TG's. Right now it is a lot of his, and a slow, hard-fought addition of other opinions. I think it's gradually improving though, which is good. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC) I now have a userid, I'll see if I can figure out updating it for arbitration and whatnot. Formerly 198.96.2.93, WLU 18:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I think one of the best ways to clear up POV on this article is to include a "Quotes" section and move review and "Themes" sections to the Sword of Truth page. This is one way to seperate critical review of his works without giving the impression that negative views of his works are directed against his person. Thoughts? NeoFreak 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Good point. Paul Willocx 13:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC) I agree that moving any discussion of the Sword of Truth to the SoT page would make sense, but it won't change that there will still be the issues I pointed out. What I'm really trying to gage is, how do we deal with pertinent discussions (Read:opinions!) about the SoT? Is there a place for them at all in an encyclopedia, regardless of who the opinions belong to? - Runch 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My Beefs (shortened)

Anyone wants the longer version, it's archived. 1) TG is best known as a novelist, the link that stated he was best known as a realistic painter does not actually say this. 2) All novels have been bestsellers is currently a work in progress 3) not super relevant 4) Phantom is a best seller - needs a references other than a weblog 5) TG's books are fantasy, in my opinion and I'm backed up by amazon, but there is debate 6) As 5 pretty much 7) As 5 again 8) As 5 9) There's a quote about him writing to inspire 2) Yeah, we do actually. But there's an edit stop. 4) Phantom did make #1, and if that isn't a criterium for being a bestseller, what is? 6) I don't know, I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with him, and I thought he put it in a much better and less offensive way there. 8) Yeah, don't think we'd be doing Mr Goodkind a service by leaving it there. Paul Willocx 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1) Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography. If you can't cite it then you can't include it. Unless there is a viewable citable statement it is word of mouth and WP:OR NeoFreak 6) The online chat in question was not just a chat between people, but was a Q&A session with the author via IRC. Not only was this an official function jointly of terrygoodkind.com and terrygoodkind.net, it was a rare opportunity for many fans from around the world to be able to communicate as close to in person as possible at the time because Terry was not doing a signing tour. Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages. Did he say it? Is is citable? Is it relavent to the subject? If the answer to these three questions is yes, and I believe it is, then it can be included. NeoFreak 7) What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself. If the source is not reliabe then, yes, it needs to go. NeoFreak 8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article. Omnilord 01:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC) As it is citable and relevent to the SoT series than it belongs on the SoT page. NeoFreak 01:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

FOR MODERATION REVIEW

okay, since people insist on editing, I think we should go ahead with agreeable grammar, spelling, and very basic edits that have been proposed so far, and just create a list of reversion points here for moderation to review.

No new information should be added and nothing should be removed until moderation however.

• ] - the preserved revision at time of stopped editing.

I've already said this a half dozen times in a half dozen places. The edit stop was requested by me and I am not an admin. This is not an enforceable stop and if other editors wish to be rude about then you can't revert their edits on these grounds alone. On a side note though I thought the anon's last edit was good as the "rather extreme" comment was out of line and POV. NeoFreak 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Neofreak about edits in general - we need not revert everything, only significant changes that involve article themes and POV statements. And I also though the removal of the "rather extreme" comment was justified, it is POV (and I'm the one who put that in in the first place! But I've seen the error of my ways, so to speak, since then, so I'd like to retract that edit if possible.) - Runch 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited a few POV positions. Can we start from there? What we have now is nuteral and unbiased. That should satisfy everyoneMystar 05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well on another note your edits to the SoT page are looking really good.NeoFreak 22:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it certainly is, but there might have been parts in what you cut that didn't have to go. Guess we can carefully restart from how it is now, though... Paul Willocx 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WLU replies to comments

Took out this section and archived it. WLU 16:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

anon attack on mystar and Goodkind

Mystar, seriously stop the Terry fanboyism. If you wish to create a controversy page with another author, do so in regards to what they've done that deserves controversy. Though you love decrying Martin and Erikson, I don't recall them blatantly insulting their critics like Terry did. I don't recall them claiming they aren't fantasy authors...Terry is a fantasy author, he'll have to deal with that. He can write his novels for whatever purpose, but what's the title feature of the books? A magic sword? Who're the main villains? An evil wizard who serves a demonic underworld master and an evil emperor who can enter the minds of others via magical powers and commands an army of enslaved wizards and sorceresses. If Goodkind wishes to write about Keepers, Swords of Truth, Confessors, War Wizard and the like when magic is often the only thing saving the rear ends of his characters and not having written any other novels in any other setting, he'll have to accept the title of fantasy author. When red dragons, gars, witches, wizards, sorcerers, sorceresses,Confessors and Dream Walkers are all characters in your books? Sorry, hun, but fantasy's yo' game. Moreover, Mystar, why should Terry's wishes matter? Is he wishing to express all critcism? Should his page be free of remarks he made that blatantly insulted his critics? It's favoritism from you, Mystar, plain and simple. By the way, Terry can keep his hypocrisy on how he writes to inspire when his heroes slaughter unarmed civilians to himself, thanks User:Unknown

We see here the vitriol and the intent from someone who is making an attack, and is not mature enough to list who they are. Nothing but animosity.... Look if you want to make your point and validate it...do so. BUT do it within the rules and the proper manor. I have added the correct content and we have the series set as fantasy, set and to why it is considered fantasy, we have the fact that Goodkind is stating that it is sold as fantasy. You can decry the fact that Goodkind thinks his works carry important human themes and are about noble ideals and his characters holding true to their values with out sacrificing them to get what they want. That is your problem, not mine or Misplaced Pages's

You betray your intent with your words. You betray your inability to comprehend what the series is about by so clearly missing the point. You seem to be unable to be neutral and unbiased, I suggest you take a deep breath and read something more to your level and ability to grasp. Goodkind's works are clearly not within your ability to grasp. I suggest that you be mature and honerable about your identy next time. it would serve your point much better than trying to hide like a school child. Mystar 12:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The idea that TG think his work carry important themes is his own opinion, and should be a very small portion of the page. What the series is about, beyond the actual events in the books, is open to interpretation by everyone who has read them. I thought Wizard's First Rule was an effort to project TG's modern fixation on sex and pain into a pre-modern world, where most of fantasy takes place. But I didn't write that in the article 'cause it's just my opinion.

WLU 18:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What do people think about rolling Fantasy designation and Influence into a single brief paragraph? How about:

Background (or something else) and influences TG has been influenced by the books and ideas of Ayn Rand, and is a strong supporter of objectivist philosophy. He has stated that he writes in the genre of fantasy because he believes in its ability to display important human themes, while viewing the world-building aspects as secondary.

Pithy, compact, doesn't make him look crazy, actually kinda complimentary. I still think the other picture of just him is better - it's larger, clearer, he's looking directly into the camera, and there's only one person, though I do acknowledge the worth of having his wife in it.

I also still think the 'best know for realistic paintings' should be changed, and to date I have yet to encounter any reason to keep it.

Comments are welcome, discussions on my talk page please.

And we see here the absolute hypocrisy from someone who posts under the name 'Mystar' on the internet having the audacity to accuse someone of posting annonymously. Animosity? Whenever anyone dares say a bit that just maybe goes against Terry, you flip out. We've seen how you react when Terry's head's on the block, Mystar. Oh, and it's our problem Terry thinks one thing and rights another? He can say whatever he wants and interject his values: He's a fantasy author because he writes fantasy. Really, Mystar...what am I 'missing?' Should the human themes in A Song of Ice and Fire or the Wheel of Time preclude it from being a fantasy series? No, Mystar, if he wrote a book set on earth, it'd be different. But he writes it in a fantasy setting. He writes about characters who use magic. So does every other fantasy author. Some of terry's rather vitriolic comments deserve to be up on the page so people can judge him for themselves. If the makers of, say...Highlander said they didn't make a movie about swordfights, but characters who had swordfights, would we discount it as action and fantasy? No, fantasy is an integral part of Goodkind's world. He'll have to live with that until he writes more books.

Do NOT alter the comments on the Talk page as it is vandalism esp when it is someone else's. I have changed back your alterations to the header. Now that you are aware that this is vandalism I assume it won't happen again. NeoFreak 19:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I love Terry's books, even though I don't always love his politics. I want to know more about his ideas, so I'm really offended when his die-hard fans (hi, Mystar!) see fit to censor the article because they're afraid that his ideas make him look bad. It's not our job to make him look good or bad, just report the facts. Let's keep both fan-boyism and Rand-bashing out of this! - a dabbler

Several editors have put in a lot of work on this page to get it the way it is, and significant changes at this point are just going to get reverted (such as by me). There was much discussion over the section that you added content to, and in the end the current version is what was agreed upon. Mr. Goodkind can fill interviews with all the profundity and innanity he wants, but on his wiki page we only report a little of it. Though I agree with you regarding censorship of negative information, months of work on the page convinced myself and others that what we have now is best - check out the talk page history for a long overview. Bring cocoa 'cause it'll take a while. Anything further along the vein of what you added before also starts edging towards original research, but you're welcome to start a page on TG's politics or something of the sort if you can find good sources. WLU 11:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

addition of an info writer box

Following is all the info for the box. The recent pic has been ok'd by Goodkind, and as I own the photo, I give my permssion. I've tried to figure it out, and well... I'm just not that script or code savvy.

{{Infobox Writer | name = Terry Goodkind | image = [[Image:http://www.sanctuaryslight.com/mystarpics/Goodkind-book-signing-event-8-26-06-A.JPG | caption = Terry Goodkind, Aug 2006 Las Vegas | birth_date = 1948 | birth_place = Omaha, Nebraska | death_date = | death_place = | occupation = Novelist | genre = Fantasy | movement = | magnum_opus = The Sword of truth | influences = Ayn Rand, Aristotle. | influenced = | website = http://www.terrygoodkind.com/ http://www.terrygoodkind.net | footnotes = }}

The box looks nice. Thanks for allowing the use of your image; if you want it to appear in the article, you'll need to upload it to Misplaced Pages. I've never uploaded images myself, so I don't know too much about it, but there's a guide to the process here. Brendan Moody 18:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Uploaded and added the picture. It *may* get deleted if someone gets overly zealotic about it, because I wasn't sure about the GFDL. Short summary: GFDL means that not only does the owner allow the picture to be on Misplaced Pages, but he also allows anyone else to take the image and use it, even for commercial purposes (though, as I understand it, credit to the original maker is still obligatory). I now uploaded it as a picture which has been permitted by its owner to appear on Misplaced Pages, and given the link to this talk page, I hope that will be sufficient. Paul Willocx 20:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanx Paul. Terry will give me any written permission needed, should anyone want it. At this point his verbal to me should suffice. I expect fully that some anti-fan will do just that. However looking over several fan pages they all have them, so singling this one out would more than smack of vandalism Mystar 22:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikiquotes page

I created a wikiquotes page for Terry Goodkind, there's a couple there now that I found on his website and the Flemming interview, here's the link.

http://en.wikiquote.org/Terry_goodkind

I prefered the earlier image that was on the webpage, the new one is pretty small. WLU 22:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well is that all you ever do is look for something to complain?, I'll get a better one then.Mystar 04:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the image is fine. Just my two cents. NeoFreak 04:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I preferred the other one because you could see TG face very clearly, while this one is smaller, and there are two people. It is not a complaint, it is an opinion, and a reasonable one. WLU 13:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Odd, I can see his face quite clerly, as well as that if his wife. When I put my glases on I can see it even better...Mystar 13:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason for either of you to get short with each other. Mystar likes the pic and WLU doesn't. WLU, if you want to propose the use of another picture by all means do so. Mystar, I didn't know that was his wife, now knowing that I like it even more but I suggest you add that fact to the caption. NeoFreak 13:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

If the pic is too small on the page itself, click on it and you get the full version. Paul Willocx 18:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

fan section

I'm currently compiling a selection of material to add to a subsection labeled "fan base". I've sourced positive and critical acclaim from peers, fans and professional reviewers. Anyone have any input before I place it? Mystar 03:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

You could post it here first, that way people have a chance to comment on it before it goes into the article itself. - Runch 03:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I second the request, please post on the talk page first. WLU 20:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar, It would be easier to put it in a sandbox on your userpage. Also, I thought you were opposed to fan sections as explained here where you said it "seriously crosses the line", was "non-encyclopedic", that you "don't see a "fan" section as being nessary", also that articles were "not about touting the actions of a few fanatics", and in closing about fan sections: "Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising. If you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views you could also use Wikinfo". You also claimed that you talked with an admin on the issue and he agreed that they were improper.

I couldn't imagine that you are simply putting up a fan section here in "retaliation" or to protest the keeping of it on the George R. R. Martin article as that would be contrary to your stated purpose on wikipedia. So what caused this profound about face on fan sections? Has the admin changed his mind as well or do you just disagree with him now? Out curiosity. NeoFreak 20:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

WLU what you request has no merit in anything and even less weight. You have made no contributions to anything Goodkind only negitive and deleations. Forgive me my dear if I ignore what you request. I just see no pluse or positives to having you attempt to ok anything. Add some positive content! give TO the pages. Make yourself useful.

Neo I would like to offer my deepest concern here. You seem again to have totally missed what I stated. Not that it is anything new or surprising. I am however asking that you stop trying to start a fight....again... Grow the hell up for once! ADD something condusive, something positive to the pages rather than trying to run me or the pages down. If you cannot I woudl ask that you take a step back and let people who CARE about the content and its message handle things. You had stated that you were done... Please kindly adhear to your own words. Mystar 23:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess I just don't understand what's going on then. Could you explain it to me? It really would be better if you used a sandbox. This is best accomplished with a user subpage. This way to can tweak and change it before you put it up and igve people a chance to look at it and make recommendations. NeoFreak 23:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyone have a link to the page where TG tells his fan to commit suicide? I think I remember that popping up in the talk page previously. Was it in a forum or message board? I'm looking for a reference, haven't found one yet. Did find a reference to TG liking the framers of the US constitution (http://www.tor.com/interviewGoodkindnew.html) if we wanted to include that. Here's one that criticizes TG too but I think we'd have a hard time integrating it, plus it's a blog(http://log.reflectivesurface.com/2004/05/24/book-series/). It does nicely summarize my experience with TG overall. Can't find the suicide thing, guess it's out.WLU 14:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to offer up a warrning again to you WLU. Trying to stir up incitful and harmful content wil not stand. We all know you despise and anhor Goodkind. Good for you. What you cannot do is to bring that bias into this page. If someone wants to commit suicide, that is their problem. Finding and taking something out of context is not going to happen. Adding criticizum for the sake of trying to make Goodkind look bad will not stand. YOU don't like Goodkind...great.. then go away and allow people who are and can be unbiased work on the page. ANd you link doesn't work. SO I removed it Mystar 18:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The link works, it just takes a bit of time. I'm happy with removing the dispute tag.WLU 18:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

For now, consensus is on the 20 million figure. Give the citation, then we can decide if it sticks, as a group. Please do not edit the main page unless you have the citation or something else relevant to add.WLU 19:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

As stated before, if you have the citation, use it. Otherwise you have no justification for changing it and I'm going to keep reverting. I've got one more left today. I just read the wiki section on Misplaced Pages:Vandalism vandalism quickly. Technically both of us would fall under the heading of bullying or stubborness. I'll be willing to let the change stand if you put it up with the reference. If you have the reference, put it up, if you are waiting for it, then wait until you've got it in hand. Until then, consensus is, 20 million, author's webpage. WLU 22:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Several points to be made here:

• To Mystar: As far as the book sales total, WLU is correct here. With the current sources that we have available, the current version of the article is accurate. If you will soon have a reputable source from TOR available, simply wait until you can reference that source before editing the page to reflect that information. Just make the source available to the rest of us to avoid controversy.
• To WLU: Anything on a blog is not a reputable source (See Misplaced Pages:Reliable Sources). In addition, anything that TG may have said to any of his fans really is a completely trivial piece of information, and as such, it is not of an encyclopedic nature.
• Finally, to Mystar: Please stop accusing everyone who disagrees with you of vandalism (Please read Misplaced Pages:Vandalism and specifically the section entitled What vandalism is not). I've been contributing to this page for months now, and I have yet to see one instance of true vandalism by a regular contributor.

As always, lets all be civil here. Thanks, Runch 23:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Runch....lol.. You never cease to crack me up with your double standard. I can dig out your comments to me in the archives...lol.. You pulled stuff off the page I placed calling me a vandal and now you are allowing it, and encouraging it on grrms page...seriously dude get a grip please!

As for WLU, you can have some patience. I stated that I was adding the citation. You can have the maturity to allow time for it to be placed. You do not OWN this page hell you even hate Goodkind. SO your actions are in bad faith and poor judgment. Please back off and act with some professionalism and maturity. Your actions do not create a positive view upon you. Mystar 04:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I noticed the two links go to exactly the same information, but the first link loaded quicker for me. Anyone else find that? Might be better to include the first link. Also, this is a press release, so we can't say that the book sales come from TOR, it doesn't say that on the links. I also added a section on what was discussed during the press release (turning books into a mini-series - I guess that's for TV, is there any new news?) but forgot to add the link. BTW, ignoring what Mystar says that isn't facutal/relevant really seems to work.WLU 12:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The link I posted is better stated and has links within it that help define who and what is involved. It is a better worded abd contrary to your statement is not exactly the same thing. If you are going to fight everything I add then we are going to have to bring in some admins, you are acting in bad fait and I'm asking you to please stop. Retalitaory editing will not go unnoticed and is poor form Mystar 13:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right, they are different. I'm actually more in favour of the SFX news site, it's got a more current date (only by 3 days), and the comingsoon page was put up by a guy named "Vader15" while SFX there either is no author, or it's James White. Incidentally, it gives TOR as a source, but I'm more comfortable saying 'press release' since it is a press release, and not the official TOR website. It should be advertising the adaptation soon one would think, but a quick search turned up nada, as did tor.com's what's new page.WLU 13:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I added the wikiquotes link back onto the page - if it's there, why wouldn't we use it? It's pretty much the best place to allow TG to speak for himself, in his own words.WLU 13:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

They both list TOR as the source... Again the link I placed has embedded links to other information on the parties involved. Therefore it makes better sense to use it as it gives the reader more information with in their search. It is also worded better and provides more information. Mystar

Miniseries

I'm not sure the section about the Sword of Truth mini series is particularly relevant to the article. I think it makes more sense having it on the article for the Sword of Truth, where it has been since the information was released. What does everyone else think? - Runch 14:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right. After looking at it again, I tend to agree. Good call! and Thanx for seeing it. Mystar 16:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's relevant to have the short blurb here, 'cause it indicates that TG will be active in other mediums. You'd note an individuals work as a producer, director, screenwriter and editor in their page I would think, I see little harm in keeping it here. It's also already on the SoT page. Perhaps a re-write of the section to place more emphasis of TG's role in it - basically once the miniseries is made, TG will have gone beyond being an author, he'll be, I dunno, a screenwriter? I think a short section is merited.WLU 16:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar - please leave the wikiquotes link in, unless you can give a reason to remove it. NeoFreak - I changed the 'do not' to a 'may not', at first by accident, but I'm happier with 'may' 'cause the link doesn't say. Ideas, opinions? Actually, it also says 10 million books in print, not sold as well. You know we've had the link to the mini-series info since sept. 4th? No info on publications though.WLU 23:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar was right in removing the Wikiquote link. It's a perfectly good link, but it's already present in the article once, in the Published Works section. There's no need to include it twice, it's unnecessary. If you'd rather have it at the bottom of the article, feel free to move it to the bottom of the page, though. - Runch 23:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the figures either include his foreign sales or they don't. If the source is not clear on the issue it's really not much of a source. Any ideas? As for the mini-series I thought that they were making a movie as well. That should really be included in the Sword of Truth article with a blurb on TG's participation and sale of the rights on this article linking to the Sword of Truth main section. Once there is some more concrete, citable info on the movie it defiantly rates its own article. NeoFreak 23:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it as is, I only included the 'foreign and audio' 'cause of the e-mail exchange with his agent. Apologies for the wikiquotes, I didn't notice it was a second inclusion.WLU 23:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well...WLU I can see you are not a person of your word. I did quote you and you did make the statement. So what are we to deduice from you not being able to keep your own word? Also, if you would have taken the time to READ what I posted, you woould have seen that I clearly stated that the wikiquote WAS a dup and unnessary.... But then you never were one for reading what was there only what you want to see.

Again, I ask you to KEEP your word... Please Thank you.--Mystar 01:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

You should shorten your posts to only the relevant information, otherwise people skim through it rather than reading in detail.WLU 01:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Painter

Since the publication numbers are wrapping up, I'm starting in on changing his bio - it now reflects the careers listed on the reference, a painter as one career among many rather than what he's best known for. WLU 01:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

As we had already decided by consensus that that specific wording was ok t use I'll replace it. Among many other various things Terry has done in his life so far, his paintings were what he was best known for. It is not nessary to have a specific quotation making that specific indication. In all of the early interviews about Goodkind, he is mentioned for being an artist and made his living as such.

Now, I've taken the liberty to post several links below that all concur on the fact that he was first and foremost an artist, a painter of realistic marine and wild life. So WLU yes we can use that specific wording and we did by consensus agree to use it.

http://www.tor.com/interviewGoodkind.html

JF: I know you've been an artist. You painted the endpapers for Wizard's First Rule, and you drew the map. When did you first start being a professional artist? TG: I started selling paintings when I was in high school. I've painted ever since I was really little. I've always liked drawing, and I was always encouraged because I was good at it. It was also an escape from the rest of school. I think it was a case of ability triumphing over passion. Art, for me, was always a way of seeking to express the emotion within me that writing lets out, but at the time I didn't realize that writing was the way I really wanted to do it. With painting, I was trying to do what I now do with my writing: express those emotions, tell stories. I enjoy painting, but it's not my passion. Writing is my passion. Art helps me with my writing, though, and is part of it. In order to paint, you have to see what is really there. For example, to paint chrome some people just paint silver, because they think chrome is silver. They aren't seeing what is really there. Chrome isn't silver, it's something that reflects what's around it, sky or ground or whatever. When I write these things in my head, and it comes time to write them down, that artistic ability helps me to describe in an accurate way what I'm seeing, what is really there. I think it helps me bring texture and life to my writing.

http://www.tor.com/sites/sword_of_truth/

Goodkind was born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska, where he also attended art school, one of his many interests on the way to becoming a writer. Besides a career in wildlife art…

http://www.starlog.com/ghastly_review.php?id=657

Goodkind painted extensively before he embraced his true passion: writing

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2000/Aug-01-Tue-2000/lifestyles/13986007.html

His visual ability led him to create the bestselling "Sword of Truth" series of fantasy novels six years ago, after a career as a marine and wildlife artist.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=0FC704407085D6C9&p_docnum=1&s_accountid=AC0106092304203819511&s_orderid=NB0106092304183619404&s_dlid=DL0106092304205419555&s_ecproduct=DOC&s_username=mystar July 18, 2003 Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal An Open Book Ken White By KEN WHITE REVIEW-JOURNAL

Terry Goodkind's books are labeled fantasy.

“So instead of going for his dream of being a writer, Goodkind took up art.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A765641

Goodkind was born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska, where he also studied art, one of his many interests, on the way to becoming a writer. Besides a career in wildlife art,

http://www.nndb.com/people/786/000044654/

Goodkind stopped writing down his stories, but he continued to channel the passion of his narratives into drawing and painting. In 1983, --Mystar 15:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think these links definitely prove that if Goodkind were known for anything before becoming the author of the Sword of Truth series, it was for his painting. Plus, I like the way Mystar phrased it in his latest edit. - Runch 18:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

This issue was already resolved and the old version was fine. The more recent version is just as good and doesn't need any changes that I can see. NeoFreak 20:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Taint consensus 'til there's agreement, and reviewing the history of the talk page, there has never been an actual resolution, that's what we're doing now. How about "Previous to becoming a writer, TG had a career as a painter of realistic wildlife and marine images, as well as violin maker/antique restorer/blah blah blah." The links provided do state that he made a living painting, they make no mention of noteriety. His art is good, very realistic, but was he known for it? If he's the guy who paints those wolves on t-shirts and does silkscreen dolphins for sweatshirts he could have made a living but does anyone look at his signatures? Did anyone look at them and say 'that's a Goodkind'. It's a previous career, not one he's known for is my opinion.WLU 20:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

No, no agreement is nessary... three people out of four is a consensus..., and if you read all the archives you would see the afore mentioned consensus Neo refers to. Prior not only sounds better it makes the sentence flow smoother. And as we all can read, ALL the links (there are dozens more if nessary), he was known for it. That is how he made his living. Were he not known, I hardly think he could have made a living let along amass the fortune needed to buy the island, build the huge house and take time to write. We need not pick at nits here WLU... we have plenty enough information to justify the statement.--Mystar 00:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously you are opposed to the phrasing, WLU, but I think it is correct. His artwork need not be notable for him to be "best known" for it. Even if only a handful of people recognized Goodkind's artwork, no one else recognized him for anything at the time, so technically, yes, he was "best known as an artist" before becoming a novelist. - Runch 01:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I'll bow to Runch and Neofreak. Article definitely looks better, happy editing. WLU 01:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar, was Goodkind just a cabinet maker, or was that one of the things he did as a carpenter? Right now the page says carpenter, the BBC link says cabinet maker, did he specialise in cabinets or is his experience in the trade more broad? WLU 16:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Sword of Truth

The Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Sword of Truth is now up and running, although there will undoubtedly be many changes, updates, and revisons over the next few weeks. Please join if you are interested! You can use the shortcut WP:SoT for easy access. - Runch 17:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Influences and themes, main article

I've added a link to a page Influences and themes(Sword of Truth), the page doesn't exist yet, anyone who wants to create and expand it can do so at length. I don't know if the Wikiproject will have anything to say here, but this stops people from cluttering up the main page. WLU 20:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

At least in my opinion, part of the problem with the themes section was that it read a little like an interview, because it was so heavily laden with direct quotes from Terry Goodkind. I rewrote it, summarizing all the quotations and citing each one. I think it is much shorter and to-the-point now, while still retaining an element of 3rd party neutrality. We will see if others agree...

As far as needing a separate article for themes of the Sword of Truth, I think that's a little ridiculous. A brief mention of the themes can be covered on the Sword of Truth page itself. And, the way I rewrote the themes section on the TG page, It makes no mention of the Sword of Truth and only deals with his writings in the fantasy genre - so I think it's worthwhile to keep the mention there rather than elsewhere. - Runch 16:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Runch. Omnilord 20:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

As am I. I am working on some content for that specific section. Using GRRM's bio page as a guide it now looks like the content there is out of bounds according to WLU's assertions about the Goodkind Bio page. As Runch and Omni have stated I concur--Mystar 00:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, and after the bit I'm about to add, it looks fine. Thanks Runch. WLU 12:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

WLU, in trying to stop the edit warring and smooth things over I woul dsuggest this, perhaps with your overt and well stated personal distaste for Goodkind and your recent edit warring/page ownership situation, you should post what you wish to add here first. This would allow the Project team to review it as to it's authority and if it actually speaks to the proper content of the page. That would forgo further embarassment on your part and stop such edit warring. :) --Mystar 17:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not embarassed, but thanks for your concern. As you suggest, I would like to add the following segment to the article in the content and themes section - first rename it Criticism and themes (or choose an adjective to include instead of criticism):

==Criticism and themes==

The Goodkind's sole body of work to date, the Sword of Truth series, has received both criticism and acclaim. Reviewers discuss the awkward and repetetive prose, and also the extremity of the sexual sadism and violence of the series. However, critics have also noted improvement in his writing over the development of the series, his ability to construct a detailed and creative world, and his writing of heroic characters with a powerful sense of morality. Goodkind himself has defended his inclusion of items such as torture, stating that (regarding Wizard's First Rule) his purpose was to highlight the helplessness, degredation and irrationality of an abusive relationship, not to shock or disgust.

I'd also like to include a link to the Inchoatus.com critical essay.

The above section is referenced, has both positive and negative things to say (though I know it needs a citation for the morality and detail thing - I read it somewhere but I can't track it down), allows him to state why he includes themes of violence and sexual violence, that there's a purpose and it's not the fantasy equivalent of shock radio, and includes a recurrent theme that runs through many of the novels, sexual violence and torture. I know Runch has objected to the flakmag link, but I'm not sure why - it's a e-zine, not a blog. I look forward to reasoned replies.

WLU 17:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You are changing the title of the section from Influences and Themes, to Critism and Themes. Influences and Themes have a common rationality, I don't see where Critism can be combined with themes however. Influences often have an impact on the themes, Critism comes after the themes have been written into the novels. There is no logical flow with making a change like this.

True, having thought about it. How about a section just called Critical reactions? It's closer to what I'm going for. WLU

You are trying to cite sources that have already been dismissed as acceptable sources. This ground has been covered, concensus was reached, especially about the Inchoakus page. As for the Christian Fantasy page, it doesn't read like a professional review, and certain does not hold water as the plot references are not even correct.

Christian Fantasy and Inchoatus are just used to support inclusion of sexually sadistic elements. I'm going from secondary sources here myself, having not read most of the books, but unless there really is a huge anti-TG conspiracy designed to smear his name by putting forth the completely untrue idea that he has an unpleasant amount of rape and sadism in his novels, well, they support the claim. If people are willing to concede that the books contain sexual sadism, hey, leave the references out. I'm not citing Inchoatus discussion of TG's apparent lack of education and ignorance of scholarly definitions; I'm not pushing the opinions I'm just using it as a reference for the existence of the rape/sadism in the series. I also included TG's justification of some of the elements in at least one book (WFR), which I think does an excellent job of balancing out that particular section. And having read WFR and having had a reaction to that particular section, it does make more sense and seem less lurid and sensationalistic in the light of his comments. I'd still like to see the discussion you are referring to re: Inchoatus. WLU

http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/goodkind.htm is a good source, by my opinion, and when it references the violence of the novels, it places it in a contextually correct light. The only opinionation I see on the page is the part about pillaging Gullom/Aie Sedit from Tolkein/Jordan for Samuel/Sisters of the Light. Technically speaking, I could drop a dump truck on all this BS and say Jordan was ripping off Angus Wells's Three Kingdoms Trilogy which Wrath of Ashar was published 2 years before Jordan's Eye of the World. Fantasy realms have a tendancy to reflect certain key elements that are a major part of reality, filtered by the judgement of the author who is doing the writting. In the case of all three authors references, it would be a good bet that the Roman Catholic Church's hierarchy is the archtype of all three sisterhoods, it is not ripping off either other, it is portraying a real in a fictitious environment. Aside from that, this site is a good reference.

The section I wrote up doesn't make any references to plagiarism of ideas, I'm using it to justify the inclusion of violence in the series and for it's praise of TG's development throughout the series. WLU

http://www.sfreviews.net/wizardrule.html while it has regular incorrect references to elements of the plot, it does read very well. Another adequate source by my standards, and hopefully Wiki standards.

Again, just using it to reference that it's received both criticism and acclaim. I'm not using it to say he's a horrible author or that his work is crap, just that there's disagreement over his works. Terry Goodkind is a controversial author (from what I've read), the section doesn't take a side, but I think it does portray different sides of the controversy. WLU

(Also, I've been lazy with my reply, I've not formatting much of anything, sorry) Omnilord 22:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I just realized which article we are editing. Why is this even being discussed on this article? This sort of thing should be under discussion for Sword of Truth, not the biography page. Omnilord 22:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Arguable, and the discussion could easily fit under both. For example, the information in the career section is duplicated in the SoT page. If you'd prefer, I'll put the controversy section onto the Sword of Truth page instead, it's just that I've got history on the TG page, while I'd be jumping onto another page essentially in the middle. You've challenged the sources and title, but the information itself I don't see any specific objections to. I'll wait a couple days for a response, then put it into the article. WLU 17:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Addressing the plot and thematics of an individual novel or a series should remain local to the relivant article. To discuss that information on the biography casts a very negative POV of the author himself, not the books he writes. Terry is not a sadist, don't make him out to be one just because he is able to create evil villains who can portray evil traits (IE sadism, violence, sexual-misconduct). If you want to address this, keep it local to the books/series, and don't make it sound like you are labelling the author with the same sweeping judgement. We can work on making it read appropriately in the appropriate article(s). Omnilord 22:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

WLU's wholesale deleation of mass information

Just because you do not like information on the page it is not your place to wholesale remove it. You have already established your disdane of all things Goodkind. The material is valid and speaks to the content of the book and is valuable information for the reader. If you wish to reword, add or edit. Then do so. BUT wholesale removal is considered vandalism. We are working on these pages through the wiki project, so if you please allow us to continue to do so.--Mystar 22:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There is now a whole page dedicated towards TG's themes and influences. Add content there. You are going to fill a bio page with mostly comments on his works, not on his person. Therefore, put it there. Plus, the wikiprojects page doesn't necessarily include the author, it's about his books. If you want to put in extra stuff about the books, there is now a page for it. The influences and themes section was the source of major and considerable discussion, what was arrived at was the two sentences we have there now. There's no need to add extra content now that there's a page for it.

Again, since the page is about TG, it should have content about the author, not his works. WLU 22:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

"it should have content about the author, not his works" <-- I do not understand this concept. User:WLU, can you expand on this? --JWSchmidt 14:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

As WLU is currently banned from editing this article, I'll explain. The article is about Terry Goodkind, the author. It should contain information about his life, who he is, and what motivates him to be an author, not the information about his books. While it is feasable to include information on why he chose to write fantasy, and why what he writes in the fantasy genre is so controversial because of his viewpoints, going into the details of the sword of truth series itself (talking about the characters and the plot of the books) belongs in the articles dedicated to those specific topics. It is a means of organizing the information into smaller, speciallized chunks that are easier to assimilate on the whole. Omnilord 20:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Themes section seems fine right now. It includes appropriate citations(with the exception of the last line) and reads easily, and to my knowledge, accurately. The tone and grammar are fine. Further editing/removal seems pointless at the current time. Kedlav 10:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a second problem with the themes section - the old version read: Goodkind, however, perceives himself as more of a novelist than a fantasy author. With a reference here. This is a list of interviews, not interviews themselves; there is no mention of the novelist/fantasy author distinction and I couldn't find one in the interviews themselves. The only reference I can find to novelist is, ironically enough, to the Inchoatus essay, which itself cites http://www.terrygoodkind.com/chats/PIchat5.php, which no longer exists. I've corrected the text to read: Goodkind, however, perceives himself as more than just a fantasy author withith a link to the Virginia book signing, where he says his books are 'novels, not fantasy'. Unless the original chat transcript shows up, that's the only material I could find to draw upon for that particular section. Irrespective, if anyone wants to change back to original text I don't want to bother debating the difference between 'someone who writes novels', though that's pretty much anyone who's published, versus 'a novelist' versus a 'fantasy novelist'. WLU 18:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems a bit unnecessary, if not too nitpicky to me, given the quote about him writing 'novels, not fantasy.' Is this not essentially saying novelist?Kedlav 06:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The term 'novelist' is more or less meaningless - anyone who has written a novel is a novelist. A novel is defined as basically a long prose narrative where characters advance the plot (definition). Really, him saying he is a 'novelist' rather than an 'author of fantasy novels' comes across as a backhanded way of saying fantasy books aren't really novels. Which is confusing and seems dumb and elitist to me. Every single author who has written a novel is a novelist. I suppose it is useful in distinguishing people who have written novels versus short stories versus screenplays versus plays versus scientific journal articles versus non-fiction books - all are authors, but only those who have written novels are novelists. Other than that it's pretty pointless. See the inchoatus essay for a discussion of this, it's fun, though apparently not acceptable as a resource. WLU 17:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

While I personally find the discussion of whether he's a fantasy writer or not rediculous(as he clearly is one), the fact is, he claims he's not a fantasy author. I'm not disagreeing as to the elitism, but novelist is what fits best in his own words, which in this context, are relevant(at least to certain people). Kedlav 06:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The concept is this, he writes novels with fantasy elements, not fantasy novels. The elements of his books that are fantasy are included mechanically, not incidentally, to serve a purpose. It is a small difference, but it is a difference non-the-less. Omnilord 21:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

verify online chat

There was a discussion of the verifiability and usefulness of on-line chat as a source of information for Misplaced Pages. Originally this was an discussion which ended up being a series of heated remarks and discussion outside of the original topic. All posts dated to before August. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of using online chat as a source for information was previously raised (now in the archive) and remains a problem for this page. I see no way for a Misplaced Pages reader to verify the contents of chat transcripts. --JWSchmidt 15:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Mediation request

Are the participants here still interested in informal mediation? The request is here. I have closed the request but can reopen it if you desire. --Ideogram 07:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I am and do, yes. I'm sure most the others are as well but it might need to be reopened with a revisted participant list. I am occupied with professional obligations until the start of next month so I'm not sure I can take part until then. NeoFreak 21:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not interested in formal mediation on this page, it seems to have settled on an acceptable version. WLU

I do not see the need for mediation at all. WLU has admitted to not reading Goodkind, being untrustworthy, and that (in her own words) we should not trust her in the future, and even having not read Goodkind, dislikes him. What a way to allow people to make up your mind for you eh! Seriously, We have a Misplaced Pages project on the situation now and I think this will prove to be a powerful union that will build consensus on the proper content eliminating POV and unnecessary negative content. I vote no --Mystar 20:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt we will be needing it. Everything has cooled down and we now have official processes in the works that will make things run smoother. No. Omnilord 02:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Reversions, reverts and "consensus"

We've been having repeated reverts by anonymous edits and its starting to bug me a bit. Oddly, WLU and I agree on which version should be current and that is a very unusual thing as we both represent extremes in opposite directions. I think the verifiability that Terry Goodkind has nine novels and one novella published is adequate enough for that information to remain. Omnilord 03:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we're that extreme, and I think that the version you've been reverting to is definitely the best. I also don't want to do any more archiving, it's a huge pain in the ass. At what point can we start deleting old discussions? WLU 12:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that all the anonymous reversions have been by the same user using some sort of rotating IP, but it's possible that its a number of users working together. Regardless, I agree that the current version we've agreed on is the most concise, accurate, and encyclopedic version, so as long as they keep vandalizing I'll continue to revert. It's nice that we all agree for once. :)

Doesn't look like a rotating IP. The IP's listed are traceable to New York, Denver, New Wales, Australlia, Netherlands and Germany. I think its a cabal of troublemakers. Omnilord 20:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as archiving, it doesn't have to be that annoying if you just do it by date. Simply cutting and pasting any discussion originating before some set date into the archive is simple and fairly effective. I mean, as long as the discussion are still available somewhere, that's all that matters - they don't necessarily have to be easy to find. - Runch 16:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Themes addition

Latest addition to the themes section:

"The series is clearly intended for adult readers, with frequent acts of sado-masochism, rape and torture described in extreme detail in the books."

I've been meaning to get around to adding this, or something similar to the SoT page proper rather than the bio page (as pointed out by Omnilord, issues regarding the series should be placed on that page, not on the bio page).

What do others think of replacing that line with: "For a discussion of the critical reception of the Sword of Truth series, see the Sword of Truth main page."

With the section added (the section being the one included above).

Thoughts? WLU 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Bursts onto terminology

As I see it, the term "Burst onto" is correct terminology to use. Goodkind came from total obscurity when TOR published Wizards First Rule. He was a total unknown in the field. He also garnered TOP dollar for WFR and a record that still holds to this day.

When someone comes from virtual obscurity into the limelight it is said that that person has "burst onto the scene," regardless of the medium. It matters little if the individual makes a positive splash (as Goodkind did) or not. When it is a fact that a person came out of nowhere and made such a sudden impact, it is generally accepted that they "burst onto the scene" - a phrase so often used it is almost a cliche. Many others have that same distinction. The term would not apply to those who had been doing things in their field for a long while and their reputation and renown grew over time. Goodkind did not do that. With the nearly instant success of this unknown author's first novel, he did in fact burst onto the scene.

Iit is an appropriate phrase and not, as Neofreak put it, "fanboy wording." There is an appropriate reference to back it up so according to the rules as I see it, it can stand. Joedu 15:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, welcome back! I was hoping to see you branch out into some articles outside of the Terry Goodkind/Sword of Truth pages. If you have any questions about some cool places to start working ask and I'll be more than glad to help (along with most others) as single purpose accounts can be detrimental to your goals and wikipedia in general.

As far as the cliche as you termed it goes you are incorrect. Terminology and tone are very important parts of maintaining wikipedia's rule on neutral point of view. Using "burst onto the fantasy scene" is excitable and incorrect language usage for an encyclopedia. Because someone used the term in a book review/sci-fi fantasy site doesn't make it an appropriate or "referenced" way to make a statement. Just because someone on a political blog said George W. Bush "whooped it on" in Iraq doesn't make it approprite for use in wikipedia. See what I'm saying? NeoFreak 18:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I see what you are saying, but you are still wrong. it is your "opinion" and that is all. The term is a good one that describes an action that occured. And Yes it is referanced, That you don't like the referance is of little note. We are d=creating a factual account of events and placing proper tones with them. If you don't like it, you do not have to read it. !!!!

• The 'referance' is to a newspaper interview from which far too much content has previously been lifted and inserted into the article intact (including the very phrase in dispute here: "burst onto the ... scene").
• Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a fan magazine or a newspaper column, and while such taunts as "If you don't like it, you do not have to read it" are quasi-normal in adolescent sibling squabbles, they are not at all appropriate in discussions of encyclopedia articles.
• Mystar, you have been persistently trying to turn rational differences of opinion into noisy quarrels. Do stop. Athaenara 04:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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