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Talk:Steven E. Jones/Archive 1 Talk:Steven E. Jones/Archive 2

Jones accused of anti-semitism for reference to "international bankers"

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645201360,00.html (posted by Peephole, 14:23, 15 September 2006)

Anyone want to do anything with this? I doubt it's going to go anywhere, but if something else turns up, this is probably the first mention of it. Could have historical significance. I've never liked this tactic of the ADL. It seems to me that they, not Jones, are connecting banking with jews. That said, I do understand the "codetalk" argument. Tough call. But this is not yet substantial.--Thomas Basboll 14:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"Tactic of the ADL"? You've got to be kidding. It's widely known that "International Bankers" is an anti-Semitic euphemism. If you hear it, you can expect that "the Jews did it" is just around the corner (oh wait, that's already part of the 9/11 conspiracy theory, isn't it?). Morton devonshire 15:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

What,what? What is this organization AFD? It's first time I hear that "international bankers" is a codetalk? Maybe I'm oldfashioned but international bankers are... international bankers? I've never connected them with Jews. (Well, I heard some anti-semitic Jews-banking connections but... codetalk?) Jones speaks publicly of "international bankers" for the first time and AFD sends a letter of complaint - aren't they a bit paranoid? ... Or.. (lol, but please don't tell AFD :)) maybe, they're indeed defending interests of... "international bankers"? :))

Anyway, in Jones's own words: ""I had no idea this would be some sort of codespeak for anti-Semitism, it is not right to link such a group to Jews." --SalvNaut 17:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think 'Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and an "international banking cartel"' is pretty clear, if that is an accurate report of what he said. But unless this is picked up more widely in the press I would say it should not go in here. In context it might be appropriate for the section in 9/11 conspiracy theories, or in new anti-Semitism. Tom Harrison 18:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry! I can't stay mute. I very oppose to this way of thinking! Are Wolfowitz and Perle Jews? I didn't know that - I'm not sure if Jones did. Even if - why would this be the most important thing for him?? He never spoke ANYTHING of Jews before! Maybe he've heard this phrase ("banking cartel") from someone of Scholars911. It doesn't matter. He can't be accused of anti-semitizm for saying this sentence!! dot.

This kind of thinking frames very "well" onto what we've read today in the news. Pope Benedict gave a lecture on a german university on the history of religion. He cited some guy from 14th century (ok, maybe he should be more carefull choosing citation, still) and what do we have in the news!? "Muslims" are angry! Pope angered Muslims! First: I don't think any muslims would care if it wasn't for such organizations - just exactly like AFD, but on the Muslim side. And who inflated the story so it would go around the world 3 times? What do we need this for! Why to follow this "don't piss me off" way of thinking? Comments I've seen on forums today were depressing - 0, nada, null! of understanding, just pointing fingers who's fault it is. Don't pour more oil into these - please. --SalvNaut 21:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree at least partially. It is possible that Jones picked up a line from others in the movement, and repeated it without knowing how others intend it, or how it would be received. Now he does know. As you say, I have not heard anything like this from him before. Again, I don't think we should add it here at this point. This is a biography of Jones, and it's not at all clear that this remark tells us anything at all about the man, except maybe that he is inclined to say more than he should of things he knows little about. That at least seems consistent with his 9/11 'research.' "Neocon cabal," "world bank," and "masters of the media" are all phrases to avoid, especially when coupled with "vast conspiracy." Tom Harrison 22:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, agreed, this has nothing to do with the article. I still would like to stress on one thing: Why should anyone read that sentence different way it reads?!? The sentence is about two people and international bankers. Conspirational, as it is, it still sais nothing about Jews. This sentence is not anti-Semitic and why should I even know it can be? There is a line between protecting nationalities, minorities, whoever, from harassment or disrespect and between advancing ones' political position. Many cross this line and other similiar lines today. --SalvNaut 22:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Framed Jones?

Wow! Please check this article under section "The Radio Trap".

Even the host of a Radio program acknowledged:

"I'm not sure we did it the right way," Fabrizio said after he accepted responsibility for the radio program that sparked the sacking of Jones.

Should this somehow be mentioned in the article with connection to paid leave? --SalvNaut 01:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that we should cite to this Anti-Jewish website? Morton devonshire 01:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The title of the article is Are Zionists Behind Banning of Truthful 9/11 Scientist?. This stuff is just stupifying. I cannot believe people do not see the anti-semitism that is built into 9/11 conspiracy theories. Anyway, this site is not a reliable source for anything but what its operator thinks, so we should not cite it for any information about Jones. Tom Harrison 02:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

One would have to be a complete fool to not see this piece for what it is: hate-mongering dressed up as journalism. Levi P. 03:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

While I see how that title is unfortunate, I'm going to need a bit more info to believe that the site and the author of this (off-site) article is "anti-Jewish". The site is basically anti-globalization and has a clear 9/11 focus (as explained under "about"). There are many forms of anti-Zionism that are not anti-semitic (and forms of Zionism that are not Jewish). To bring this back to the Jones' problems, all that this indicates is the difficulty implicit in taking any sort of "conspiracist" position. Many believe (with some justification) that the "Elders of Zion" is the arch-conspiracy theory. That fact is then used to construe anti-globalization (especially when it is called "anti-globalist"), anti-Zionism (i.e., opposition to the idea that there should be a "homeland for the Jews"), and, in this case, anti-banking as anti-semitism. Again, while anti-semites may find many of these stances attractively compatible with their own, they can be (and are being) articulated without any references to that tiresome prejudice. Try to compare the claim "it is obviously controlled demolition" with the claim "anti-semitism is clearly built into conspiracy theories" in terms of the sort of evidence you would need to support it.--Thomas Basboll 09:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there would need to be an extensive body of academic literature and journalism to support the idea. Tom Harrison 13:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure, for the purposes of articles here. But I also mean more common sensically. That is, what has given you this idea?--Thomas Basboll 14:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That anti-semitism is an element of almost all conspiracy theories? That is what I see based on my reading and experience. (I think it is possible that this may not be the case with conspiracy theories in the far east, but I know little about those.) It is the nature of conspiracy theories that they start small and expand to include everything. No conspiracy theory can for very long ignore the Jews. Tom Harrison 14:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• I can understand your pov and your gained prejudice. Then, your first opinion was This stuff is just stupifying. which is quite strong judgement. This article was not the first one to mention Fabrizio interview beside paid leave. Second, the most biased part of this article is its title. Maybe we should be more careful when judging people (in this case the author of that article) basing it solely on experience. Similiar behavior might be considered to be at the core of anti-Semitism.

I am not sure if I agree with your view on the nature of conspiracy theories (on this particular CT especially, others - I don't have experience). Thomas pointed it out couple of times that it's rather the other way round - those are long-time anti-Semites who find their way into CT.--SalvNaut 17:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Again your conclusions crush on me... What has drawn you into thinking that this site is anti-Jewish hate-mongering journalism? While the article title is, as it is, it's content is just a report. I don't think I am a fool but I can't see how this site is hate-mogering? You have thrown such strong words Levi - have you read other articles there? I find them to be written in a very reportive style without any pov-pushing remarks. Where is the hate?

This site has many articles condemning Israel's war with Lebanon, ok, but I haven't found anything there that would constitute anti-Jewish? I would say at most it's anti-war, anti-(politics of Israel), anti-globalist. I've found no hate directed at Israeli (or any other) people at all. I'll give an example: an article with very strong title "Israel’s deceptions as a way of life" but it's focused on Israel gov. war propaganda, it even express concernes of ordinary people from Israel that actions of their politicians are not going to be examinated: Most Israelis are deeply unhappy about what one commentator has called Olmert’s "committee of non-inquiry". Again, where is hate? Where is anti-Jewish content? Do you call people that question war in Iraq anti-American?

Why you keep acusing everyone who has a different world view of such bad things, while people can just be very concerned about what is going on in the world?

I won't insist on adding content to Jones' article, although this could explain what BYU meant by "increasingly speculative and accusatory nature". I can't find words that would explain the situation concisely. --SalvNaut 10:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Information about Jones's interview was also mentioned in this Sep8 article by Desertnews:

Jones had been relatively reticent to discuss the implications of his findings, but he created buzz on campus Tuesday with his appearance on KUER-FM 90.1. He expressed the opinion to talk-show host Doug Fabrizio that blame for the attacks rests with neoconservatives Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and others.

The connection between BYU decision and that radio-interview apparently exists.--SalvNaut 10:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, go ahead and include it in the article -- the idea that "the Jews got Steven Jones fired" is, I agree, so stupifyingly absurd that maybe it does belong with the other stupifyingly absurd ideas of the 9/11 conspiracy theory movement, like the rest of Jones' ideas. Go for it. Wallow in the foolishness of it all. Morton devonshire 18:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Morton - from one extremity to another. You sort of got me here, as my first message and the section's title could indicate I would like to do it, the way you described it - but no, it was never my intention to do so. I would like to include info that BYU paid leave decision was influenced by biased interview by Fabrizio and that even Fabrizio agrees he didn't handle it well, and that this interview caused completely unjustified accusations of Jones being anti-Semitic. I understand you fully support this proposed inclusion of mine, as you've already supported something much more extreme - thank you. --SalvNaut 18:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are you skirting the accusation made by the Radio Trap article? Morton devonshire 19:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not. Please, show me which paragraph of this article is an accusation of anyone? Do not bring the title on - a headline's purpose is to grasp readers' attention, so headlines are often exaggerated and its justified. SalvNaut 19:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok - I've found this one for you:

Within two days, the authorities at BYU apparently caved to organized Jewish pressure and put Jones on paid leave. Students who had already begun their fall physics courses with Jones will be taught by other faculty members for the rest of the semester as university administrators review his statements and research.

Well,hmmm... apparently... You are right. It's sort of an accusation.I wonder if it's supported by something more than the author's guess. Still, the anti-Semitic topic was tuched upon other articles about Jones.(previous discussion). We have enough sources to support what I proposed to add. SalvNaut 19:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV violation that will be fixed

Inappropriate in English per NPOV: "Engineers have dismissed the controlled demolition hypothesis". This implies/states/pushes the POV that all engineers have dismissed this. Unless someone can find a source that says flatly that all engineers have dismissed it this needs to be changed. You cannot have it say "Most engineers", or anything similar either, unless you can source that. I am changing this again to "A variety of engineers", which is neutral and NPOV. Let the reader decide. None of us has that right for them. · XP · 14:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, none of us has to be mislead to believe that any respected engineers support his summary of the events either, so until you can demostrate that they have, the edit stays.--MONGO 14:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Reread how it works on policy please. You need to source that "all" engineers have dismissed him. · XP · 14:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

What the heck does a variety of engineers have any difference than just saying engineers...I want you to show me a single engineer that completely agrees with Jones's findings. Good luck.--MONGO 15:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to find you a single one that supports his views, because I'm not saying that even one supports his view. What I'm saying is thisw article shall not say that ALL engineers dismiss his views, nor shall it say anything to denote a majority, as that cannot be proven. All that can be proven from RS is that a "variety" of them dismiss it. The difference is just saying "Engineers" is the same in English as saying "All engineers", which cannot be proven and advocating a point of view--which we shall not and are not to do. Saying a variety of engineers instead leaves it up to the reader. We do not have any sources that say anything beyond "some" engineers. We do not have any RS that say all, most, nearly all, the majority of, lots of, gobs of, or anything related. Therefore, my version is appropriate per RS, NPOV, and usage of the English language. · XP · 15:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Tom's edit

Please demonstrate where your citation supports this, or this will be coming back out as a policy vio. I contest that. · XP · 15:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It does not say or imply 'all engineers.' It says 'engineers', which is correct - engineers generally dismiss the controlled demolition conspiracy theory. That is well supported by the references given. Tom Harrison 15:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed at the 9/11 CT talk page, but remains controversial. My view is that any qualification, like "some engineers" or (worse) naming specific engineers, would be a bit like saying, "Galileo's hypothesis (that the earth moves) was rejected by Cosimo Boscaglia and Tommaso Caccini." In fact, it was in opposition to the heliocentric consensus at the time, it was "generally rejected", if you will. Controlled demolition is not just an alternative theory; if it is true it would have revolutionary consequences and, to a great extent, undermine the authority of the engineering profession -- much in the way that accepting geocentrism in astronomy was a blow to the authority of the church. That is why it is important to present the engineering community's stance as the consensus it is. It is not just "some" engineers who will have some explaining to do if controlled demolition turns out to be true (however unlikely that prospect may be). It really is the whole profession and the whole academic discipline that has something riding on this.--Thomas Basboll 18:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Describing Jones' views

Peephole, as you put a controversial citation of Jones again, I ask you to look into the archive for a discussion we had about using citations in such cases. And you could also read articles discussed in previous two sections and this more recent artcle. SalvNaut 23:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

• controversial citation? How? --Peephole 02:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

If you had read the article I had linked to (this quoute for example: In later media interviews, Jones expressed surprise that others might draw anti-Semitism from his remarks.), and if you had looked back into archive for discussion you had with me and Thomas you would have known. If you can be more specific in your questioning and adress the the points raised (in this case former discussion and the article), please. I think, the issue is resolved and the comment below is very true. SalvNaut 10:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

None of the refs have quotes - we could pack the ref section solid with excerpted quotes from each article, then add links within those quotes and essentially will end up starting all over again with an edit war. We should nip this in the bud before Peephole can again get the page locked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.180.197 (talk • contribs)

I think Peephole's edit introduced something that Jones said in an unguarded moment. It expresses one of his less well-formed views, if expresses anything at all. As SalvNaut pointed out, he has since been accused of anti-semitism for making a similar remark. On that occasion he made it clear that his opinions about who dunnit are not especially well thought out and that he will probably stop saying stuff like that. When he got involved in the issue he normally tried to avoid the question of guilt, which was out of his area of expertise. As in the case of Van Romero, who must always be quoted along with his retraction, we would have to qualify the quote in this manner. It is unclear what that would accomplish other than making Jones look a little bad in an ultimately insignificant way. A biographical article on him does not need to do that. If the statement is to be included, I would suggest writing a little paragraph that explains the basis for BYU's concern about the "accusatory nature" of Jones' work. Here the anti-semitism controversy might also be added, but keeping the POV N will of course of the utmost importance.--Thomas Basboll 12:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I had similiar idea about a paragraph that explains the basis for BYU's concern. After all, we have 3 articles linking KUER-FM talk-show with BYU decision 2 days later - those would be "accusatory nature" concerns. Other articles describe what else is reviewed by BYU and one has drawn my attentnion with: Whether BYU will allow him to keep his posts with Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Journal of 9/11 Studies is part of what will be reviewed, Jenkins said....

I haven't proposed any edits because I thought that precise explanation of the situation could give undue weight to it. (Maybe, it's because of my inability to express my thoughts concisely.)SalvNaut 18:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Jones's elected retirement

Here is the main article: DesertNews. Jones's letter to the editor of the Deseret Morning News can be found here. On Scholars for 9/11 Truth page you can find Jones announcment to his Colleagues (right side, "Founder's Corner"). SalvNaut 12:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

We're not using the "Scholars for Truth" as a reference base. The news report is satisfactory.--MONGO 19:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Not as a reference in this matter of course. I've just given the link to provide broad look on this case for other editors. My edit was based solely on DesertNews article. SalvNaut 19:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Jones on Cold Fusion

The wikipedia article states Jones' views on Cold Fusion were mainly supported by the scientific community. But Robert Park for one, seems to equate Jones' views with those of Pons and Fleishmann. A google search shows that Cold Fusion proponents tend to cite Jones' work, while those whoi ridicule Pons and Fleishmann tend to ridicule him as well. Nowhere did I find a web site accepting his work, while rejecting that of Pons and Fleishmann.68.239.152.239 04:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... have you read the article? In the article, at the end of "Cold Fusion" section there is a link to a paper which cites Jones and confirms his findings... You can read more about this controversy in Jones's Answers to objections and questions here (more confirming papers mentioned there). SalvNaut 12:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess I'm just a little leery of saying his findings were confirmed based on one paper and one New York Times article, when other physicists do seem to disagree.68.239.152.239 21:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you looked into Jones Answers and Questions (p.43-47)? Joens provides two papers that confirm his findings. What sources do you refer to exactly? Because Google Search returns nothing of scientific importance in first couple of hits. As for Robert Park, it seems that he earns a living with bashing other scientists (or want-to-be-scientists, which is not the case here).

I've read the abstract of Jones paper and listened to lecture by Jones where he explained his work. From what I know, Jones constructed an aparatus which allowed him to measure with high precision and he observed very low energy muon-catalyzed fusion, which is now confirmed and seems to be explained by some quantum mechanics.

If you want to make a research look here. SalvNaut 23:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for lead

(Looks like this one isn't winning support. I'm withdrawing it. Thanks for the comments.--Thomas Basboll 23:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC))

I think the following text would be a more appropriate lead into the present article:

Steven Earl Jones is an American phycisist. In the 1980s Jones popularized the term cold fusion, but his experimental work was significantly different from the more controversial cold fusion experiments of Pons and Fleischmann. Through the 1990s Jones also conducted research into solar energy.

Since late 2005, Jones has been defending the hypothesis that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by controlled demolition, a common feature of conspiracy theories surrounding the September 11, 2001 attacks. On October 20, 2006 Steven Jones announced his retirement from Brigham Young University in order to devote more time to this line of research.

The very fact that we feel a need to source the claims made in the lead is a red flag for me. Characterizing him as a "conspiracy theorist" on a par with his being a phycisist is in any case a bit odd. He's a phycisist by profession who is notable for a two or three areas of research.--Thomas Basboll 11:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support Current version does not indicate that he retired in order to do more research - it should be changed. SalvNaut 14:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• oppose: Disparagement of his scientific analysis with outrageously pov terminology does not belong in the intro at all, and if such pov presented in the body, it must be pointed out that the disparagement has its roots in widespread efforts at suppression of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Ombudsman 07:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep What we have. No violation of WP:BLP is happening if we use reliable sources that meet WP:V. The 9/11 Truth Movement should be suppressed, aside from identifying that they exist. Misuse of Misplaced Pages as a platform to espouse "hypothesises" and "theories" with no basis in fact is not to be tolerated.--MONGO 08:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment. When commenting on this please keep in mind that this is not a discussion about the content of the whole article, which I also don't see any reason to change dramatically. I'm just suggesting that the lead could be written in a more plain style and offer less interpretation than it currently does.--Thomas Basboll 08:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep as-is. This has been debated to death already. The reason we say in the lead that he is a conspiracy theorist is that he promotes conspiracy theories, and that is pretty much the only reason most people have ever heard of him. In other words, we say he is a conspiracy theorist because that is what reliable sources say he is. The reason it's cited is because people (perfectly reasonably) want a statement like that to be backed up. His "retirement" is along the lines of a politician retiring to "spend more time with his family", and is every bit as credible. The amusingly misnamed 9/11 Truth Movement has no say in this, it is Misplaced Pages policy that matters, and what is in the article is sourced, generally to a high standard, from reliable secondary sources, has been debated at length and is stated in carefully neutral terms. Guy 13:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• I see no reason to change the lead. He's really only here because of the conspiracy theories. If he becomes less notable, this page could be deleted, or merged into Researchers questioning... Tom Harrison 14:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

violations of Misplaced Pages Biography of Living Persons

Violations of Misplaced Pages Biography of Living Persons (self-identification) policy are among the more serious policy vioalations. To use the term conspiracy theorist to describe Jones we need a credible and verifiable source quoting Jones refering to himself with that term. In that case it would not violate the Biography of Living Persons policy, but it would still violate the NPOV (neutral language) policy. It would probably just be best to avoid the term in reference to Jones. Cplot 07:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Page protected

I have protected this page due to a disagreement regarding WP:BLP...dicuss here and reach a realistic finalization on that policy as it pertains to this page.--MONGO 08:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

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