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Revision as of 23:19, 29 November 2006

This is the page for discussing the voting procedure and other aspects of the arbcom election

Voting System

This year's (RFA based)

I don't think this will scale too well and there is still the problem that votes are visible.Geni 01:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

While I agree there are some possible issues with public voting, I didn't see them as a problem in any way in the 2006 election. I'm not opposed to keeping public voting for the next election. Ral315 (talk) 08:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I didn't vote at all in the last election because I think that open elections can cause problems. A lot of candidates dropped out mid-race. And there seemed to be some bickering IIRC. Boardvote seems to me to be a much better solution. — Ilyanep (Talk) 21:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Bad bad bad idea. 05:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Previous system (using Special:Boardvote)

Much better. Votes are hidden for one thing. 05:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

jimbo thinks otherwise.Geni 12:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Boardvote is the way to go and here's why

1. Anon, no flame wars over who voted for who / no hurt feelings / loss of trust / etc
2. Technical measure to prevent duplicate voting
3. Overall easier interface for everyone

--Tawker 06:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody know why Jimbo prefers visible votes? Kusma (討論) 08:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

With open voting the entire community can serve as election officials, being able to input on duplicate votes/members failing to meet sufferage, and other issues. With closed, we have to enlist election officials to handle all of this, not even looking at the transparency issue. — xaosflux 14:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

If the usernames of people who have votes are public as in the Board elections, the community can check for duplicate votes and suffrage. The amount of transparency offered in the board elections was sufficient for me, and I would definitely prefer a secret ballot. As the ArbCom is elected and not discussed and decided by consensus, let us run proper elections. Kusma (討論) 11:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's true since Jimbo theoretically has a lot of discression in how closely to follow the exact election ranking, so he may find the reasoning behind votes usefull. As a practial matter though, there seems to be a fair amount of sentiment in favour of a secret ballot. I would suggest a highly publicized straw poll in order to gauge consensus on whether we should change the system or not. It should be started fairly soon if we want to have the process ready by December. I propose

• The same system as last year: An Rfa style ballot in which each voter can vote support or oppose on each candidate. All candidates with >50% support (i.e. as many supports as opposes) are eligible for appointment to ArbCom.
• A secret ballot using Special:Boardvote: Aproval voting in which voters either support a candidate or do not. No limit on how many candidates a voter can support. The ten (?) candidates with the highest level of support are eligible for appointment to ArbCom.

Eluchil404 14:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I also support this, though I'd like a discussion page of some sort where we can...discuss...and possibly ask candidates questions like on RfA ST47Talk 15:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

We do have question-and-answer pages for each candidate. On the candidate statements page, under each candidate's statement is a list to his or her question page. Newyorkbrad 17:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

yeah, i just stumbled over this page and hadn't seen that yet. ST47Talk 18:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Other

Decision needed

Can we please hurry up and decide whether to use Special:Boardvote or not? If Jimbo has objections, can he please post them here? If we need election officials, can we recruit some here? My current thought is that if we use the RFA system I shall boycott the elections and petition others to do likewise. 05:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection in principle to a secret ballot, but the standard wiki voting system is much more in line with our traditions and appears to produce better results. When we used Special:BoardVote, we saw a significant amount of trolling and negative campaigning. With the wiki system, we get much better behavior. Additionally, even though Special:BoardVote is theoretically "approval voting", the fact of the matter is that people have tended to use it incorrectly (in my opinion) leading to very low rates of approval. Wiki voting tends to produce high levels of support, and this is important for the confidence and credibility of the committee. We can use the same system as last year again this year, so that we can get things moving quickly, and then after that, we can talk about possible alternatives going forward.--Jimbo Wales 18:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

discussion was started in march.Geni 20:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Suffrage for voters

3 months and 150 edits last time. I suggest bringing the edit count down to 100.Geni 17:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest raising it to 3 months and 300 edits. Vandalfighting animated tools now make it easier to rack up a lot of edits without getting any experience... ++Lar: t/c 19:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too concerned about that. I'm more interested in makeing it hard to use sleeper accounts for voteing manipulation.Geni 20:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sleeper accounts can use such tools too. 05:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

perhaps but at least we got some useful work out of them in that case.Geni 14:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Back to one colon. How are edits counted? I am a newish user (April) and have 200 edits, but only of about 30 - 40 pages. Am I eligible to vote? Jd2718 22:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Total edits. ST47Talk 22:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Voting should be raised to 150. Makes em' learn how to use the system.--The Fourth Swordsman 22:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Eligibility for candidacy

1000 edits minium. Doesn't effect those with any real chance and limits the election to those who can form a reasonable assment of their chances.Geni 01:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I dont think there should be any sufferage for candidacy at all, voting yes, but for the candidates keep it open. Mike _{(T C)} 01:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't scale with the RFA style elections. Firstly it takes effort to set up each voteing page and secondly we got complaints from voters about wasteing thier time on people with zero chance. From the candidate POV it was pretty clear that a number of those with low edit counts didn't realise they didn't have a chance.Geni 02:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Could we limit eligibility to candidates with 1000 edits minimum (or thereabouts, per Geni) or to candidates who are nominated by editors with those qualifications? Of course, the utility of such a scheme would be scuttled by one person who feels that we should 'just give everyone a chance', which would leave us back where we started—scores of hopeless candidates.

Perhaps a two-stage process?

• Stage one. Candidates put forward their names and a candidate statement. Editors may support the nominations only; there would be no oppose votes. Candidates would have to receive a minimum of ten (five? twenty? x?) nominations from individuals meeting some suffrage requirement to proceed to stage two. This would also be an excellent time for seasoned editors to encourage unlikely-to-succeed candidates to withdraw.
• Stage two. All candidates who receive the required number of nominations would be eligible (but not required) to participate in the full elections.

This mimics the common election practice of requiring nominators to support candidates for office before those candidates get their names on the ballot. It would also provide opportunities for candidates to gracefully bow out, be screened out, or to rethink their approach.

It cuts down on the time spent reading up on hopeless candidates—individuals who can't drum up support to clear the nomination threshold aren't going to make it in the general election. As the 'shoo-in' candidates clear the nomination bar in stage one, their nominations can be flagged to again reduce the amount of reading that nominators will have to do. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I like this idea a lot. — Ilyanep (Talk) 21:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

If the voters find it wasteful to look at candidacies with no chance, and everyone with less than 1000 edits has no chance, then just include an edit count in the table of candidates and the voters can ignore people as needed. I don't see that this problem has to be resolved by any sort of central policy, especially one that requires us to speculate (needlessly) as to the minimum requirements for a viable candidacy. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

We know from the results last time what the minium edit requirement is (around 3000). Read Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee Elections January 2006/Vote for the various problems non chance candidates cause.Geni 08:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

At a minimum, I think candidacy requirements should be equal to voting requirements. What's the point of allowing their candidacy if they can't even vote on others' candidacies? Not sure about a minimum number of edits as high as 1,000, but certainly we should cut off at around the 3 month/150 edit mark. Ral315 (talk) 08:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If you can't vote for someone, you shouldn't be able to be voted for. (Apologies for the horrible grammar.) Someone who has edited a bit and is still around after 3 months is far more likely to know what they are getting themselves into than, for example, either an inactive 3 month old account or a one-week old account with 150 edits. I would like to see if there is consensus for this before moving on. If there is no consensus for any qualifications for candidacy, and I believe that this is the bottom of suggestions, then there is no point in proposals based on actual voting behavior, such as "must have been an administrator for at least three months". - BanyanTree 20:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you really suggesting that there be a minimum number of edits to vote. (Of wich I stongley disagree, but will save my argument until someone confirms that is the idea) I do not think it is fair to have a minimum number of edits to run. Have you ver heard of a country that requires someone to work for 10 years so they have "experience" before they can run in an election?? I agree with Christopher Parham, noting the number of edits is the best way to go. (like RfA) And is it just me or is this a huge cas of Meta:Editcountitis, which says counting edits is to be avoided??? Please read that before continuingFlying Canuck 17:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

In the US, you must be 35 years old to run, and have been a natural born citizen. Well 1000 edits is our way of saying that you must be 35 years old. — Ilyanep (Talk) 21:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

150 edits last time. With the number of sleeper accounts around it is nessacery. Arbcom need quite a high level of knowlage about wikipedia. I doubt there are many people with 150 edits who have that and in any case they are going to have a hard time getting votes. Sometimes pragmatism has to overule idology.Geni 18:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

But if we just let people run regardless of their edit count, we can have our ideology with no costs to the pragmatists. Anybody can run (and theoretically win if the community and Jimbo find them qualified), while voters who feel that low-edit count candidates are no-hopers can simply refrain from looking at those candidates. (Admittedly this presumes that voters are capable of looking at a number next to a candidates name and checking if it is greater than whatever their standard is.) I don't see what the problem is with this solution. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

No cost? Someone has to set up the election page. We had 68 candidates last time. This time without some restiction it is likely to be 100.Geni 17:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How about whoever feel like running regardless of time, or edit counts? Let's a have another rule, no badgering the voters with so called disruption votes, and all yes, and all no votes should be counted, as well as a rule allow for no answers needs to be given? --Masssiveego 09:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I very much agree that there is absolutely no need for any minimum requirements. I don't think that will bring any gain, and will just be extra rules and regulations. Let anybody who feels like running run. I see no problem with people dropping out of the race, be that even half of the people.

Besides, people have been saying that edit count is a bad metric. While it has some value in judging admin candidates, ArbCom elections are serious enough that I think one should allow people to candidate based on other standards, or even better, none at all. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Nod. My standards and evaluations weren't purely edit count driven by any means. But I probably fit the "2000-3000 edit cutoff --> probably not a viable candidate metric" being batted about. ++Lar: t/c 14:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that the requirements for candidate should be "X edits before the 20th of September" rather than "X edits", to prevent newbies from rushing to this threshold. As for value of X, I agree that it should be at least 150. Conscious 06:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Candidacy only through nomination

How about this? Personally, I find the concept of self-nomination both highly distasteful, and leads to, as Geni says, an excess of problems with people putting their names forward without a "snowball's chance in hell", as it were. Just an idea. James F. (talk) 15:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I like TenofAllTrades' idea up there. — Ilyanep (Talk) 21:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The TenofAllTrades approach is not bad at all, but adds a lot of process, doesn't it? This may be somewhat less process but still have a filtering effect. (but you have to put sufferage SOMEWHERE or new user A just gets nominated by new user B and we're back to the same situation except we had more process to get there)... ++Lar: t/c 19:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

TenofAllTrades' idea is very time, process and rescource heavy. I've never been happy about the idea of nominations. In any case most of the snowball candiates were very new. Even a fairly low entry requirement should be enough to make sure that the people running have a reasonable idea of their chances.Geni 20:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Right. The simpler the procedures are kept, the better. Let anybody who feels like running run, no need for nominations, etc. In several days after the voting starts half of the candidates will drop or get very bad percentages (support divided by total). After that, one may start thinking seriously on whom to support from the top 10-20 candidates. Least effort this way. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

are you volenteering to set up a 100 odd voteing pages?Geni 13:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

He has bots. So do lots of other people. If candidates sign up with just their userIDs, running a bot to create whatever structure is needed (including fetching edit count info and time on wiki info and all the other good stuff... most of which you get with templates already anyway) is work, yes, but not THAT much work. Heck I could probably do it and I'm not actually very good with code. I expect someone will volunteer once the requirements are clear, we have time for that yet. So.. not a showstopper, IMHO ++Lar: t/c 14:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

But still - it's a lot of work for the voters to sort through all the candidates. I'd be fine with a minimum edit count of 1000 (or even 2000 or 3000). No-one with less than that has any realistic chance and will be spared humiliation. But requiring nominations is just extra work which is hard to oversee. Haukur 13:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is a good idea to reduce the number of candidates just because Joe the voter will be overwhelmed. Besides, I don't think voters need to examine _all_ the candidates. Misplaced Pages's hive mind will quickly reduce the number of serious candidates to a handful. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the number of candidates starting the process matters overmuch (although there is certainly no problem with giving them a realistic appraisal of chances of success, since nobody with under a few thousand edits is likely to get through), I think what needs to be done is to encourage people to withdraw once it is clear that they will not pass, and remove these from the main election page. If we can make the main campaign page just a list of names and current tally (or names, brief statement and current tally) - i.e. keep the long lists of sigs in a <noinclude> - and as I say encourage people to drop out to keep numbers down, that should achieve all we need to achieve. Anything else is vulnerable to end up as instruction creep. But I speak as one who does not consider the current process broken, just a bit unwieldy at times. Just zis Guy you know? 10:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I also like TenofAllTrades' nomination idea, slightly altered. You submit your name, and once you get ten people who nominate you, we pull your name and add you to the official candidate list. This prevents the spectacle of some popular people receiving 100+ nominations, while also politely rejecting those who have no real support in the community. NoSeptember 16:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Rather buracratic and rescource intensive.Geni 10:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Geni. Haukur 10:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Status of the elections?

As someone recently noted on the administrators' noticeboard, we seem to be a bit behind schedule here. The page indicates that candidate statements may be posted as of October 1 and the election will be held in December, but there are no statements posted and it appears the election rules have not yet been finalized. What is the current status and plan? Also, is there any indication whether the current ArbCom members whose terms are about to expire intend to run for re-election? Thanks, Newyorkbrad 20:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Currently the elections will be run in a simlar way to last year. Problem is that everyone except Jimbo thinks that way sucks but there isn't much we can do about that. No idea if which if any arbcom members will run.Geni 21:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think things sucked that much last year. OK, the devil may be in the details, but that open vote with support/oppose was definitely much better than the closed vote with supports only for the Wikimedia foundation. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Where should I look for the answers to these questions?

*How many positions are up for election?

*Are all the retiring arbitrators eligible for re-election?

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 17:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Some information can be found here. It appears there are five seats to be filled and retiring arbitrators may run for reelection. The seats to be filled are currently occupied by Jayjg, the Epopt (Sean Barrett), Theresa Knott, Sam Korn, and one vacancy. Newyorkbrad 18:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

By way of update, Theresa Knott has stated on her talkpage that for time reasons, she is not going to run for re-election to ArbCom this year. The others either haven't decided (that I know of) or haven't responded yet. Newyorkbrad 05:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The Epopt now has also announced he's not running again. Newyorkbrad 00:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

And to be pedantic, I'm assuming that arbitrators currently in place in another tranche can't run for a seat on this tranche. Well, they could resign their seat and run in this election, but that would be silly. </pedantry> Carcharoth 11:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll deal with that problem if it happens. most likely just leave it up to the electorate.Geni 11:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You will deal with it if it happens? No, sorry, you have nothing to do with it.--Jimbo Wales 19:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? Is there some board level committee that has total control over the elections (and is ready to do all the work) that I don’t know about? I have the freedom to advise and the freedom to warn. In this case I see no point in doing ether until the situation becomes a reality.Geni 20:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem is, only Geni seems to think that it sucked. Geni perhaps does not remember the previous year's vote which actually was a fiasco. Geni, in any event, is not in charge of the election process and actually has virtually nothing to do with it.--Jimbo Wales 19:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

err User:Ilyanep and User:Alphax have comments on this very page where they take the positon that boardvote was less than ideal. Another example might be this one. I have also been around long enough to remeber all three arbcom elections. While of course it is true that I'm not running the elections (I do have some sanity left) the claim that I am not involved conflicts with the evidence that could be found in page histories. Surfice to say I am at least as involved as anyone else.Geni 20:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm somewhat bemused about this myself. Apparently statements have been accepted since about a month ago, but as long as the page says "Note this is not a final version" it doesn't seem rational to submit a statement - and currently there aren't any. Presumably there'll be a "ready, set, go" moment when the page is finalised, and it becomes widely advertised that statements are being accepted - any idea when? Tomorrow will be a month until the deadline for self-nominations. --Sam Blanning 03:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Goiing by past experence. the version will be finalised about 15 mins before the start of voteing. Things are unlikely to chnage that much (special:boardvote is unlikely to be used).Geni 00:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

What the positions involve

Can someone provide links to pages describing the positions, what they involve, and how long the terms are? Apologies if this is all already written in planning documents, but just not made public yet. Also, can someone clarify how current ArbCom cases are handled in the period of transfer when current members stand down and newly elected members take up their posts? Thanks. Carcharoth 10:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added links to last years signpost series that should provide some info.Geni 12:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Number of seats

Do we want to increase the number of seats on the committee? The committee isn't always at full strength and maybe we need to expand a little more. I can't see any harm in adding another three seats, increasing the number up for election to 8. That would increase the committee to 17 and make it an odd number, a good idea in my mind for decision making committees. Steve block Talk 15:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

A little late to disscuss that one I feel.Geni 16:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The committee at full strength is 15 members (there is currently one vacancy that is one of the seats being filled in this election), so there is already an odd number of members (and in any event, it doesn't matter that much whether the number is even or odd, because it never happens that all the ArbCom members sit in any given case). Newyorkbrad 17:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I missed the vacant seat when I counted up at the committee page. I don't see that it's too late to discuss it since the page states "the number of seats that will be up for election is unknown but will probably be at least 5". I'd say it's too late when voting starts. So, given the committee is rarely at full strength, is expansion in order? Steve block Talk 20:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It's unknown because I don't know how many people will retire before their term is up. We expanded arbcom last year.Geni 20:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Expansion would also be something that current arbitrators might have views on. Is their workload too much? Would they welcome an expansion? If something like this was really needed, I think it would have been suggested before now. Carcharoth 13:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I suspect it's all up to Jimbo. Last year he increased the number of seats from 12 to 15 without any prior announcement or consultation. I suspect 15 is near the maximum practical number, but if there are more highly supported candidates then there are seats, he could conceivable do it again. Thatcher131 18:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

If there were further increases, they would be in multiples of three (one extra arbitrator per tranche). Fifteen could very well be near the upper practical limit for the current system where all active arbitrators hear every case. --bainer (talk) 09:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Bainer is probably right that if the number of Arbitors be extended to 18 or 21 it would make sense to split duties so that each member is assigned to only certain cases. I'd say 21, random assignment by senior member, each hear 50% or cases; but such a system may not be in the cards. Though it might be worth discussion as the caseload is likely to be increasing for the forseeable future. Seperately though, I see that there has been a vacancy on the arbcom since February only a month after the last election. If Jimbo didn't appoint anyone to that slot (as my reading of the election procedures suggests he could have), he presumably won't appoint anyone to fill vacancies in the coming year. Thus only five slots are likely to be filled based on these results unless someone without an expiring term resigns before the end of the year. Eluchil404 12:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

One thing I'm confused about. With the ongoing reorganisation of the Wikimedia Foundation Board, and Jimbo stepping down as Chair (see here), how does that impact Jimbo's relationship with the en wikipedia and its ArbCom? From the above, it sounds like business as usual, but I'm not sure. Carcharoth 06:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Tidbit of information at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Emeritus. Carcharoth 06:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The general opinion apears to be that it is irrelivant see here.Geni 19:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. That explains a lot for those of us who don't follow the mailing lists. Carcharoth 20:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

From my reading of that thread, the situation seems to be "normal level of clarity, to wit mud-like". Is there a centralised discussion of this anywhere, either on the (en) mailing list, or on-wiki, or just brushfire outbreaks of confusion and doubt? Call me a dangerous radical, but I'm of the view that a) the election should be just that, an election, not "voting followed by semi-correlated appointments"; and b) the terms of same should be made explicit in advance, rather than declaring the numbers of vacancies/appointments after the fact, which is an extension of the above "not an election" practices. In the worst case, if JW is declared to have "reserve powers" by the WMF (or by the community, or as seems likely, by himself, recursively), at least have the provisions for "vetos" or "captain's picks" made expressly and explicitly in advance, not after the fact tinkering. Alai 06:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring over question

There was a bit of an edit war#3RR block between User:FuManChoo and User:Avraham over a question that Fu asked Avraham. Basically, Avraham felt the Fu was poisoning the well, and he might have been. However, I'd like to suggest that during a process like this, a candidate should not be removing questions related to his candidate statement. It seems to me that, while it is appropriate to respond with "You are poisoning the well, and I won't dignify that with an answer", actual removal of the question (without even providing a link to a diff to make it accessible for those who might want to reach their own judgment) probably sets a poor precedent. - Jmabel | Talk 17:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

As a general rule questions should not be removed without extreamly good reason.Geni 19:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Please check the edit histories. A shortened version of the chronology is that he attempts to use my Arbcom question page as a vehicle to try and smear me by making innaccurate accusations (in other words false) here. I have a suspicion who it is, but I assume good faith and respond here. He goes on to continue to make improper allegations here at which point I still try and respond amicably. Once again, another accusation, slightly different this time, but the user is obviously more interested in trying to attack than dialogue. At which point I try to stop feeding the troll. Who of course comes back. At which point, a checkuser had confirmed that Fu was a sockpuppet of Deuterium, so I removed his trolling completely because it is now obvious it is not a good faith question, as I did answer his points, to his chagrin, I gather. Back comes Deut/Fu, off he goes with this response on his talk page. After erasing both user warnings and my response from his talk page, I post it on my Arbcom question page so that people realize I am not trying to duck his question (which is obvious since I answered him twice). He reverts it, and it is returned by an adminstrator.

Mind you, that he was having trouble with his block and as a gesture of good faith, guess who fixed the autoblock for him?. I did. Do I get a thank you? Of course not!

I think I extended a significant amount of good faith in trying to answer him, and he always responded, in the words of another administrator, with “naked trolling”. As can be seen from my responses to the anonymous editor, if a question is asked in good faith, I answer it to the best of my abilities, regardless. As can be seen from Deut/Fu, I even extended good faith to an editor who has berated me, acted incivilly, and has basically attacked me on a number of occasions. There is a difference between AGF and feeding the trolls, and this editor clearly crossed the line, and revealed his a priori intentions with his behavior. Honest questions deserve honest answers; personal attacks, inaccurate allegations, and naked trolling need to be recognized for what they are and minimized so that wikipedia is healthier for it. Thanks. -- Avi 20:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly sounds reasonable. I still think it would have been better either to leave the question where it was and indicate why you weren't answering, or to delete it, link to the deletion, and (again) indicate why you weren't answering. I'm not saying that what you did was at all deeply wrong, just suggesting that there could be a slippery slope here, and that one does best to stay off of those. Not that I haven't camped on the occasional slippery slope myself. - Jmabel | Talk 20:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

First things first, from your contributions you mention being either blocked or banned. What were you blocked or banned for? --WikiSlasher 09:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's OK if the questions are blatantly intended to attack, insult, annoy another user or troll, but otherwise they should assume good faith and let the candidate choose whether or not to delete it. Legitimate questions should not be deleted (especially when ArbCom candidates will likely need to answer the tough questions).

being a sockpuppet of another user: I haven't read through Misplaced Pages's policy on sockpuppetry, but it's generally advised against. Did you try to state your case with the blocking admin? And were you logged in or not when this happened?

harassing another user (to whom I apologized): Depending on the severity of the harassment, this can be 24 hours to indefblock+ban. I don't know what you did so I can't comment.

campaigning in an RfA: I assume you mean request for adminship, was it your RfA or someone elses? I would personally give a note on the user talk page (a level-0 warning some people would like to call it). An indefinite block is way over the top. --WikiSlasher 07:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't encourage banned editors evading their bans. Jayjg 23:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Asking questions about bans ≠ encouraging ban evasion. The most troubling this is harassment, according to the banned editor was tagging other editors' comments with {{SPA}}. Childish I know but hopefully people learn. It would be a great help if you can provide diffs to back up the case of trolling. Happy editing, --WikiSlasher 05:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No-nomination system

I'd like to recommend consideration of an entirely no-nomination and non-partisan, electioneering-free system. Such systems have advantages such as offering more choice to voters as well as avoiding self-aggrandizement, partisanship, etc. Of course, any individuals so chosen could decline, but I believe a no-nomination system presents a better solution and is more in line with the consensus-building (rather than individualistic) aims and methods of Misplaced Pages. I think contributors are intelligent enough to make informed choices by witnessing the behavior of fellow Wikipedians without needing to read speeches. Brettz9 08:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's already self-nomination (pure no-nomination would be impractical, since there are those who would possibly win yet have no desire for the job) and while technically non-partisan with the exception of candidate statements and questions, the true pain of partisanship comes from groups which tend to vote as a block, as innocently as "this person is my friend, so I'm going to vote for him" or as complex and sneaky as real-world politics infringing upon our elections. The largest obstacle to nonpartisan elections lies in between these two, where private campaigning amongst large groups of friends takes place in the vein of "If you vote for John's friend Charles in the ArbCom elections, our group will support your bid for Adminship when it comes up". None of that sort of thing will ever be visible in a diff, and is the most difficult type of vote-abuse to rout, as by the time it's discovered, the perpetrators are already entrenched in positions of trust. ~Kylu (u|t) 19:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

When picking your ArbCom representatives this December, vote Wikisocial Democrats! I call party leadership. Ral315 (talk) 16:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

We really don't need parties in Misplaced Pages (unless it's the kind with free food :D). --WikiSlasher 08:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, your statement about the obstacle is I think correct, but I don't think that pure no-nomination is impractical since, as occurs in other such systems as exist in the real world, as I mentioned, "any individuals so chosen could decline". I really prefer to deal with non-self-promoters in the case of representatives (and feel I can trust them more since I chose them of my own accord in witness of their services); maybe if others agree to this, a statement could be put out as to its rationale; a referendum (vote count) could be put on whether to adapt the system. And if it is adopted, again, if those elected do not wish to shoulder the responsibility and honor bestowed on them, they can bow out after appointment, but people's choices, I believe, should not be restrained ahead of time. Brettz9 13:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Tranche Gamma?

Not to venture too far off topic, but I am reminded of the Tetragrammaton in Equilibrium. Is Christian Bale up for election? If not, where did these names come from? GChriss <always listening><c> 09:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Alpha, beta and gamma are the first three letters of the Greek alphabet (Α, Β, Γ), equivalent to A, B and C. Tetragrammaton refers to the Hebrew name of God, and is completely unrelated (it doesn't actually even contain the word 'gamma'). --Sam Blanning 13:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Support Guidance

Will there be any guidance as to how many candidates an editor may support? should support? It doesn't seem like there is likely going to be an enforceable maximum or minimum, but is there a number we should aim for? or a number that makes good sense? or, if that's too tough, a number that really doesn't make sense? or are we on our own, guided by our best judgment? Jd2718 21:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who YOU would allow to make a decision over a policy you may have broken. As for a number, not none(useless vote), atleast 5(number of seats), not everyone(useless vote). ST47Talk 22:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

'Not none' and 'not everyone' is obvious. I disagree with "at least 5". Less than five is perfectly OK. Carcharoth 00:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, as it will be support-oppose=total, then supporting or opposing everyone is actually not a useless vote, as a support/oppose vote has differing effects depending on how many oppose/support votes there are. Carcharoth 12:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

There are actually some fascinating "strategic voting" issues presented based on the format of the elections, about which each voter will have to decide. Newyorkbrad 12:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone expecting a rush of last-minute candidates?

Well, apart from the question of whether Jayjg will run for re-election, I was wondering if there is likely to be a rush of last-minute candidates? What happened in the last elections in January? There are currently 31 candidates for this election, and there were 68 in the last election. Also, what happens in the period between the closing of nominations (1 December) and the opening of voting (4 December)? Carcharoth 12:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The edit-count qualification for candidates has kept the number down. Without checking, maybe 20+ candidates last time were hopelessly underqualified/inexperienced? So the number is not that far off. We have no way of knowning if there will be a late rush, a late trickle, or nothing, unless individuals tell us they will enter at the 11th hour. If I guessed a number, say 5 more (making 36), it would just be a guess. How could anyone know better? Jd2718 12:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

there were a number of last minute candidates last time it is not imposible that the same will happen this time. Between the 1st and the 4th a voteing page and voteing subpages will be set up.Geni 13:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What probably happens on December 2 and 3 (next weekend) is that the election officials/volunteers set up the voting page for each candidate. I would guess most candidates would have declared by now; the banner at the top of every page has been there for almost a month now. Newyorkbrad 12:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Summary table for ArbCom elections 2006

Some collaborative work has been taking place to produce the summary table seen here. There may be better tables around elsewhere, and the Signpost might also produce some useful summaries of information. I suppose the questions are:

• Is the current form of this table acceptable. ie. does it strike a balance between usefully summarising information (good) and over-emphasising certain aspects of a candidate's record (bad)?
• What needs to be changed and how can it be improved further?
• Can it/should it be made more visible? Where is the best place to put the table? How can this be done without giving the wrong impression that it is in any way official? How can it be made clear that it is mostly produced by the voters, and not the candidates?

If the summary table is acceptable, I'd be happy to maintain and update it until the elections start, though I'd hope that it would also be maintained by the community, in the same way that it was built. Carcharoth 02:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Candidates that withdrew

Pendantic and maybe slightly unnecessary, but I'm interested in a list of those candidates that nominated themselves and then withdrew. I guess I can get such a list by going through the history of the candidates statement page, but does anyone already have such a list? Carcharoth 18:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

no nor is there likely to be one.Geni 22:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Would it be possible to get a response to the other questions I asked above? Carcharoth 23:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)