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Indef. block for NorbertArthur

In early October, NorbertArthur (talk · contribs) was blocked by Alex Bakharev for personal attacks (after coming off a one-month block by Mets501 for this comment). I unblocked him later that month because he assured me that he would not make any more. Since then, Arthur has made comments such as, pizdaFATHERFUCKER Named: KHOIKHOI whithout testicles now he becamed a fucked admin after liking everybody's ass wants to intruce his shit of russians policies here. my words: FUCK RUSSIA AND UK, TO FUCKED COUNTRIES THAT SUCK OUR DICK. Fuck your mother all here. Bogdangiusca had to warn him to stop, or else he would get "get banned and this time for good". About a week later, Arthur made the following comment in an edit summary: i told you all mtf provide a source for your fuckin 21.5 mil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I unblocked him last month, he promised me here that I can re-block him if he makes other personal attacks...but how many more blocks should he be given? I say, one more, and hereby propose that NorbertArthur be blocked indefinitely. Comments welcome. Khoikhoi 20:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm no admin, but repeated posts like that, after multiple warnings and blocks, certainly seems to warrant an indef block. This one either doesn't understand our framework, or is simply uninterested in working within it. --Doc Tropics 20:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd support an indef block in this case. ++Lar: t/c 21:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

After the last offense I reblocked him for 6 months. If this is an age problem; let us see in 6 months whether he grows up. Only this time without parole. `'mikkanarxi 21:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think he's unlikely to grow up at 23 years old. Two years older than me. Grandmasterka 22:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) Standard 24 hour blocks, one for each set of personal attacks from now onwards should be more than sufficient to get the message across (unless there is an actual problem, e.g. vandalism). Also, if you do permanently block him, don't forget to delete his userpage; it contains personal information.--Euthymios 22:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Right. Well, I think a one-month block is more than enough of a message, and I consider personal attacks to be an "actual" problem. Besides the fact that Khoikhoi was the one who unblocked him. Grandmasterka 23:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Play nice or play elsewhere. Guy (Help!) 23:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks like that aren't even subtle; he even promised he could be banned for such behavior. Khoi, you say one more attack gets ban, I say negative one more attacks gets a ban. This kind of personal attack is not OK, and clearly a 24 hour block does nothing. Give him 6 months or indef. -Patstuart 23:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I hardly see the point in any more chances, and aside from the personal attacks, his editing itself has always been problematic at best; a permanent block seems the only reasonable action at this point. Jayjg 23:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Indefinitely block now. And caution User:Euthymios that inappropriate comments like that will lead to a block of his own. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, Khoikhoi, he never bothered using English to curse me out. Believe it or not, he's said even nastier things in Romanian than the example cited here. Concur with indefinite block. - Jmabel | Talk 08:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I would like to add my comment: NorbertArthur has for sure been asking for it, and he has been repeatedly engaging in inexcusable behaviour - the worst part of it was in Romanian. I was the target of such an outburst after I had asked him (for a second time) to write family name first in category brackets for articles on people (where he kept intervening). Judging by other users' talk pages, I see that he has done most of his trolling in Romanian.

Let me add that there is not a single piece of writing which could be cited as valuable from this user. In fact, all he has done was to create forks, use personal guesses to replace data, and create a problem in many articles by confusing and confounding Romanian people who live abroad with Romanian-born citizens of other countries and with Romanian ethnics who have lived their entire lives in foreign countries. Refusing to pay attention to guidelines, he has also uploaded copyrighted material - knowing full well that it was not public domain (this IMO, equates vandalism). As far as wikipedia is concerned, he is merely a habitual troll. Dahn 20:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Just looking through the edit summaries of his 30 or so contribs this month I find

1. Joffrey Lupul is Romanian at 100%, you stupid!
2. MOLDOVAN NATION DOESN'T EXIST STUPIDS!!
3. i told you all mtf provide a source for your fuckin 21.5 mil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jmabel | Talk 07:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And more, he's already evading his block: Khoikhoi 00:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE:

1. what a fuck is your problem mtf KHOIKHOI TO REVERT MY EDITS????? SUCK MY DICK
2. YOU JUST SUCK MY DICK MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!

Ba da ba ba ba... Khoikhoi 04:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Can't you just feel the love? I think he's got a crush on you : ) Doc Tropics 04:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think than and indef block would be in order though... -- Grafikm 14:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I can definately feel the love, see his latest comment:

I came here and I say the following things: you are all a gang of hipocritic racists against the Romanian nation. I tried now for almost an year to do something, but with people like you there's no way back to recuperate. I'm not sorry at all for what i wrote and I'll be never! This wikipedia is for me just a shithole on Internet and I will tell you why, because its based on lyings and on point of view from other people (ex. Mikkalai, Khoikhoi). I not a accusing you user DC76 at all and I respect you of what you did. I know me too to use a polite language for people that I respect and for people that I don't respect like 95% of the wikipedia i usa that language. The respect is deserved. And for my future I will continue to edit wikipedia for one purpose: to destroy it. Nobody here knows that beyond my username NorbertArthur I'm the "owner" of an another 15 usernames that I edit on and no one of you will can fin out that 'cause its very good hidden. I'm not sorry for what I'm doing and you don't have the right to judge me ok? I proposed not one, not ten but hundred ideas, I think even more then 70 sources that where prooving what I was sustaining, you ignored all. to arrive a common point but I realized that you people are too low-minded to understand and that there's no purpose anymore to help just to destroy. The stupid admins like Khoikhoi they juste see the things against me, they don't see what me I endured from all you others by insulting my country and my people. But, there's always a way of neutral point. If everybody here will try at least to be one time in their life to be sincere and to listen to the other and not being racists, I promise and personally engage to stop all this and colaborate in good aim. But that will not happen I'm sure. I think I said all I had to say and explain.
Arthur 24 November 2006

I think this is more than enough evidence for an indef. block. Khoikhoi 22:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

A guy evading block with proxies and confessing to have socks? Indef and checkuser please. <_< -- Grafikm 22:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

They're not proxies, he just has a dynamic IP. BTW, I just blocked one of his socks a few minutes ago, although it wasn't active. Khoikhoi 22:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi everybody, I would like to point out that User:NorbertArthur's remarks coppied above were in response to my post here. User:Khoikhoi has pointed to me this response of his above, and here is our discussion.

I do not know NorbertArthur, because I am relatively new on Misplaced Pages. But I noticed his first rude remark he made a couple days ago in the subject line of the article Romanians, resulting in that article being blocked. Prior to the incident I also edited a little that article; there was a dispute, some people agreed to come to some middle solution, but several others continued their prefered warring, and everything we suggested was immediately reverted. For example, me and Khoikhoi supported diferent POV, but somehow we were able to talk and find common ground. If it were just we two, this article would have been long settled. I guess the simple fact that some users supporting differnt POV try to talk to each other is perceived by some as "treason", and even in majority by number, we are being dismissed. Despite the fact that there are 10+ editors in that article, the edit war was basically between three users: NorbertArthur against tow others. The propositions from both sides were going to the extreme from edit to edit until NorbertArthur perhaps did not resist, and started his famous now remarks. You know the rest of the story. Just as the extreme edits by the three users before, NorbertArthur's remarks after the block increased exponencially in rudeness from response to response. In an interval of less than 3 day to go to such lengths, wow! I agree with Doc Tropics's comment above, he had a very-very passionate crash. :-)

I don't know wikipedia policies well, I am new here, so I don't "recommend" anything to the person who'll be taking the decision. You know better.:Dc76 00:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Since no one seemed to object to the idea of a ban, I've extended it to indefinite. Khoikhoi 02:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you should throw in a checkuser as well... -- Grafikm 14:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I support the block. ←Humus sapiens 01:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this user does not understand that even anon comments are recorded. Maybe if this was explained, unsigned attacks wouldn't happen. I don't support and indef block for this reason, or at the very least, using the anon comments as evidence. --Haizum 08:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Will314159 Legal threats

Having recently come back from a 10 day block for "violations of WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, and WP:NPA." and for recuting "...meatpuppet editors off-site", User:Will314159 has now issued not-so-thinly-veiled legal threats against User:Isarig here, here, and here. Armon 12:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

(Isarig had been blocked on 13 Nov for "Personal attacks on Juan Cole" -all the threats have been after that, 14 November 2006, 21 November 2006, and 22 November, respectively) Armon 13:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Will didnt make legal threat. All what he did was warning isarig not to WP:LIBEL. I think Isarig should be blocked instead because he libelled Juan cole here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Juan_Cole&diff=87446122&oldid=87402322 Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 15:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Isarig's opinion is unlikely to be enforceable as libel in the US -especially as he would be able to point to published charges of antisemitism/antisemitic comments made by others against Cole. This does not mean that Will, as a lawyer, could not make life difficult for him via a frivolous lawsuit. Isarig has been blocked for violating NPA, however, that was apparently not enough for Will, and his legal threats amount to harassment of his "opponent". Will should be blocked, ideally permanently, as he's shown no acceptance of WP's mission, culture, or processes -or any progress towards it. Note the accusation below that I am Isarig's sock or "meatpuppet" because I find his behavior unacceptable. << armon >> 02:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should avoid libel whether or not it is technically actionable - armon's claim that a libel claim may not be enforceable in one particular country is hardly a reason for Misplaced Pages to endorse libelous statements. In addition, the U.S. Supreme Court has clearly held that opinions can be actionable as libel -- the case Milkovich v. Lorain Journal Co. held that opinions can be libelous insofar as such opinions "may often imply an assertion of objective fact." (In this particular case, the "opinion" certainly does imply such an assertion and would be actionable if someone chose to pursue it). I find armon's insistence that Will be blocked permanently to be distasteful, as he appears to be trying to use Misplaced Pages policy to remove an ideological opponent. Will's statements that Isarig should avoid libel do not appear to me to be threats or personal attacks. csloat 03:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

csloat accuses me of using policy to silence my ideological opponent. I have no problem with "ideological opponents", I do however, object to the non-stop page disruptions since May 06 which both csloat and Will have engaged in. csloat is rightly worried that Will being banned will further isolate himself on Juan Cole, because without him, csloat will be the only intransigent party, regardless of "ideology". Further to the charge, if I really wanted my "ideological opponents silenced", I would do better to "go after" those who present a real challenge, not those who troll and produce low-quality, POV edits which have no real chance of remaining. << armon >> 06:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of any page disruptions that I have been engaged in since May 06 (or any other time). I've been a very constructive Misplaced Pages editor for a couple years now. Will's participation is not my concern, but I do object to demands for permanent blocks against users who may be misguided but who clearly want to improve wikipedia. csloat 07:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That he wants to improve WP is problematic in itself. His improvements entail scrapping NPOV. << armon >> 11:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• My computer has been out for a while because of a worm. I have previously warned Isaig of a gross violation of civility and libel. I have had no respone from him or others on this matter other than this preemptive action from Isarig's sockpuppet. there are some other complaints I need to make against other persons for gross incivility. if this is the proper place to make it then here goes. It is the grosses violation, and entirely uncalled for. Because it is in the edit line, it's permanent and can't be erased. It's for keeps. He's constantly noticing people and wikilawyering. i think Armon is his meatsockpuppet.

WP:CIV for calling Cole a "jewbaiter" in an edit log.

• • (cur) (last) 01:21, 13 November 2006 Isarig (Talk | contribs) (Cole is a jewbaiter, so his jewbaiting quotes are in. thsi was moved to v&C, but you've deleted V&C, so it's back here) Unless somebody else has already done it. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 17:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Some claims are so laughable they need no response, but i got suspended for another laughable claim for which i never had an opportunity to respond. So I better respond to this one. I deny I made a legal threat to Isarig. I advised him that he had subjected the Misplaced Pages foundation to libel with his namecalling and he needed to stop it. And I also said that if others didn't report him that I would. I put it on my talk page because he has a habit of deleting warnings on his talk page. I put it on the Cole talk page to get feedback to see if somebody had already noticed it because I had no feedback from Isarig about it and I didn't know how to notice it. And I will tell Professor Cole about this because he is a friend of mine and it's funnier than hell that Isarig would get so vulgar. Here is somebody that is wikilawering and turning people in all the time for the slighted imagined rule violations and going aroung libeling people in the grossest way. He can't be allowed to get away with this. Maybe he's already been punished for it, I don't know. Please advise. I have had no feedback. And as for Armon, to each his own. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 18:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The comment about how you would "inform" Cole about the matter together with the other comments seems like a legal threat. Please stop. JoshuaZ 21:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Will asserts that he is a lawyer- see here, therefore the phrase: I will advise Professor Cole if the Misplaced Pages community fails to discipline you. suggests a more credible legal threat than simply telling on him. << armon >> 01:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC) I suggest a block. << armon >> 01:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Will may be a lawyer, but it is a stretch to claim that "advise" is being used in such a legal sense in that sentence. It is doubtful that Will is Cole's lawyer and it is unlikely that Cole would accept Will's counsel under the circumstances. But I believe the problem here is not Will -- if Misplaced Pages is sued because of a statement that Isarig published, it is Isarig and not Will who is at fault, whether or not Will is the lawyer who initiates such a lawsuit. csloat 03:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If was pretty obvious what was being implied. How else would a person (Juan Cole) who has no professional or personal contacts with another person (Isarig) do anything to negatively affect the second person other than through a legal matter. I really don't see how Will can deny what was clearly being insinuated.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The word "advised" is very common and is often used in non-legal settings. As a university professor, for example, I often "advise" students. In another example, I often "advise" friends (or seek "advice" from same) on personal matters. I believe this may help clear it up. I have no way of knowing whether it was Will's intent to use the term in a particular way, but I assure you that it is even possible for lawyers to use the term "advise" in a non-technical sense. Will may have simply meant that he intended to send Dr. Cole an email. That doesn't necessarily excuse the action, but it does make it a lot less sinister than is being implied here. I would add, again, that the legal problem, if there is one, lies with the party posting illegal content, and not the party who takes action (or who informs someone) of said content. After all, we don't need a legal adviser to expose something that has already been posted to a public website.csloat 07:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, then Will's threats were utterly unnecessary other than for trolling and/or harassment. As for the "ultimate meaning" of "advise" or "inform", we might as well argue about what the meaning of "is" is, rather than putting it in the context of Will's posting of WP talk page debates on Cole's blog to solicit POV warriors, his "ends justify the means" approach to editing here, and his complete lack of regard for any policy other than WP:IAR. His "deniablity" is far too implausible. << armon >> 11:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have been contacted to step in, as the blocking admin, but I am home with my family for Thanksgiving, and will have no time to step into this dispute today. I am sorry. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 19:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

These are clearly legal threats, regardless of the apologetics, and should not be tolerated. Jayjg 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. As such, I have blocked the user for 45 days, considereing that legal threats are a fairly dramatic step up in poor user behavior and will not be tolerated. As always, I appreciate admin review of my block, and will abide by any changes the community suggests. RyanGerbil10(Упражнение В!) 22:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm a newby and there's a lot I don't understand. But I don't think legal threats have been made. In my neck of the woods one might "advise" someone of something, and you'd only be telling them it happened. You'd not be suggesting they sue, nor would you be "advising" them of how to go about sueing someone.

What is much, much more worrying is that Isarig is apparently free to post "(Cole is a jewbaiter, so his jewbaiting quotes are in. thsi was moved to v&C, but you've deleted V&C, so it's back here)" . This would be a deeply unpleasant slur even if it was genuine - and to accuse supporters of Israel of potential "dual loyalty" is not (on the face of it) jew-baiting.

I trust Isarig doesn't mind others referencing the fact that particular people are Jewish - oh, look, he takes considerable objection "what relevance does the alleged Jewishness of the lead prosecutor have to do with the article? Other than to push the POV that it is religiously motivated, that is?Isarig 06:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)".

PalestineRemembered 19:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know about any prior history with this user, but in this particular case it looks like an overly aggressive response to the patently inappropriate comment by User:Isarig. With regard to this incident specifically, a 45 day block seems excessive. —Centrx→talk • 23:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Centrx; this is over the top. Particularly when you consider that proportionally, Isarig was apparently blocked for only 1 day for the inappropriate content itself. So the message is that it may be bad to post libelous comments in edit summaries, but it is 45 times worse to "threaten" to advise someone about inappropriate things being said about them on a public web page. Had the editor simply informed Cole rather than "threatening" to inform Cole, we would consider his actions common courtesy rather than legally threatening. csloat 23:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

His prior history was taken into account. << armon >> 03:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I support the block. ←Humus sapiens 01:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

His request to be unblocked has been denied. He is now circumventing the block by not logging in. << armon >> 03:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely no legal threat was made. 'advise" is not the same with "sue". Unblock request was denied, but it was denied by a probably non-neutral editor. Will requested another admin to review. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 18:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC) :Quote from will ...I am very serious about this. What credibillity is there to WikiP when a call for more neutral editors is called sockpuppetry? When an admonishment to Isarig and an effort to protect the inegrity of WP from libel is treated as threating a lawsuit? When advise is stretched to mean "sue?" When Humus can threaten a muslim with involluntary servitutde at the service of Israellis? Come on James Wales wake up. Where are you? Where are the officers of the foundation? How can you let this stuff go on unchecked? Godspeed John Glenn! Will 02:21, 28 November 2006 (UT...

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Normal Bob Smith (2nd nomination)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Normal Bob Smith (2nd nomination) needs input from unbiased non-SPAs. —Quarl 2006-11-22 19:56Z

User:srkris

• contributions) has unreasonably left vandalism messages on my usertalk page even after there was agreement on the http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Carnatic_music to delete such content. Further, he has suggested that I am a puppet of User:A4ay on the same page for A4ay's agreement with me, and so reverted back to his old changes on the Carnatic music page. In this process, I believe I have been defamed as per http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:LIBEL . Ncmvocalist 06:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Ncmvocalist (above) is removing content from Carnatic music without holding any discussions and against repeated requests. He has in the past blanked out Carnatic music related pages like this and this, and got warned by other editors. He has also removed pictures and content from Carnatic music a number of times as per his own admission - , , and reverted the page very often - , , .

He seems to have violated the Misplaced Pages:3RR between 24th and 26th November on Carnatic music article. I cautioned him about it, and placed the Template:Test1a on his page. User:A4ay does similar acts on the same page (removing images etc), who might be a sock puppet of User:Ncmvocalist. User:Ncmvocalist responds to me by placing a template warning on my page and saying that I defamed him. He says above that there was an agreement on Talk:Carnatic music to delete content from the article, which is false and absurd. And now, this report on Admin Noticeboard seems to be funny, if nothin else, since it should have been I who should have sought admin help against him. Since he and User:A4ay have been doing extensive edit warring and destructive edits violating Misplaced Pages:3RR, hope they are warned suitably to participate in a constructive manner. ­ ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 08:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to Assume good faith in Srkris, however, his constant disrespect seems to signal that he is not at all innocent. I hope he is warned to not only participate in a constructive, NEUTRAL manner, but about his overt disrespect towards other Wikipedians (evidenced above from the humour he finds in something obviously quite serious, as well as when he rolls on the floor laughing ("ROFTL") and "Haha" in .) His attitude needs to change.

Srkris' version of the facts are somewhat distorted compared to what actually happened - it seems he is not innocent. There is no absurdity or falseness. There was indeed agreement in deleting images of Modern artists in the article Carnatic music, as is evidenced in - it was agreed that the images would be deleted until the issue was resolved - the issue of WP:NPOV with why some modern artists pictures were on the article rather than others, and whether such images are appropriate in an article that does NOT focus on modern artists). Instead of signalling his disagreement, or respecting the wishes of another WP:Wikipedian to let this issue be resolved by discussion before reverting, he chose to revert AGAIN ] to the version with images in question, and ONLY after this, does he bother placing warnings on my page and the Carnatic music page concerning WP:3RR. He then puts a warning regarding vandalism too. He then has the audacity to claim I am dictating views on others, when he seems to be guilty of the same.

His latest reply in Talk:Carnatic music is further evidence. He misleadingly states that all I do is "undo other's painstaking work" - this is both disrespectful, unreasonable and defamatory. He suggests I haven't tried writing an article on Misplaced Pages from scratch before, and also explicitly states that the only reason the reverts have continued was because I think "The article doesnt need images other than what I upload" - which is untrue, regarding the latest edits and reverts, as can be seen in . His defamation didn't stop after the first warning, nor did his assumption of bad faith, after my first warnings. His failure to assume good faith in dealing with other editors is a serious issue.

He seems to have violated WP:NPA on several occasions, notably and openly when requesting intervention WP:PAIN against another member. He has blatantly insulted their behaviour, when he needs to have a look at his own from a neutral point of view.

I hope the administration will warn him about his behaviour so that it will improve in due course, without interfering with his and others contributions to Misplaced Pages.

Ncmvocalist 15:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Please use dispute resolution. Also, this is difficult to follow. My advice: only wikify each specific item once and aim at a concise account. El_C 17:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

srkris is a constructive editor, and placing bogus warnings on talk pages is meaningless.Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Bakasuprman, both for your faith in me and your support. I hope Ncmvocalist has more constructive work to do. ­ ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 13:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The defwarn templates are ridiculous. They look ugly on Kris' page. I request an admin to remove it. Sarvagnya 18:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The label is quite appropriate. Ncmvocalist 04:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Sarvagna also for the support and faith in my actions. Yes, I dont want to remove the warning messages myself, I request an admin to do it, and ask User:Ncmvocalist to start behaving. ­ ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 14:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

And yet, the hypocrisy continues.... Ncmvocalist 02:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

64.107.1.251, etc.

• 64.107.1.251 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 64.107.220.170 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 64.107.2.2 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 64.107.1.197 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 64.107.2.130 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 64.107.2.65 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 64.107.220.118 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 66.99.1.4 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 66.99.3.7 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

User uses same grammar/mistakes in comments on history page of Hollywoodland for their duplicate changes, replies to posts directed at one IP as if they are that IP (64.107.1.251 answering my response to a post made by 64.107.220.170 in the Hollywoodland discussion page --see subsection "Hollywoodland"--) and makes threats/insults to others who disagree with them: "also I suggest you keep your hands off good links," and "you support each other, like cops and donuts ," etc.Gnrlotto 07:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Can I get a little help-help?Gnrlotto 06:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET AN ADMINISTRATOR TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE? WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET AN ADMINISTRATOR TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE? WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET AN ADMINISTRATOR TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE?Gnrlotto 05:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Have you tried requesting page protection at WP:RPP? Danny Lilithborne 05:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Or report him/them (I dunno) at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism--SUIT 05:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Is "I suggest you keep your hands off good links" the strongest threat that has been made? Regards, Ben Aveling 05:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No, actually this is a long term problem. A very long term problem. f and also, more controversially, here: (links deleted by the anon, and by me, 23:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)) Both of these pages were deleted by Jimbo himself as part of a negotiation with this person. What his part of the deal was I do not know, but if it involved leaving us alone, he's broken his part. We may wish to get Jimbo himself to weigh in on this. I believe that several people were on the verge of opening an ArbCom case against this person because of his persistent abusive behavior and POV-warring, in addition to his general inability to get along with any other editor in any manner at all.

This particular user also left notes on my user talk page like "learn what movies are" along with posting: "==Enough== Of Deleting good links, this time you have no explanation, this deals with the movie, not actor,I AM WARNING YOU FOR THE LAST TIME, YOU WILL NO LONGER STAY ON WIKI IF THIS CONTINUES, i am on my public IP this time." Not only do I consider this a personal attack, I consider it a threat, even though it's probably not an actionable one on the part of the user who posted this. Rray 02:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Minor offtopic comment, can the page on GRP be deleted? I highly doubt it'll be recreated by the subject if it was deleted by Jimbo during talks with him and SW hasn't be recreated yet. A suggestion... 68.39.174.238 02:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

When I saw the dispute over the Hollywoodland article, I tried reasononing with the anonymous user (who did jump around on various IPs), I tried explaining the policies, and I tried explaining that reverts are not meant as personal attacks. They seem a bit paranoid, and they don't seem to place much value on civility. They are very defensive of their edits, and I think their conduct is unbecoming of a good faith editor. Verkhovensky 02:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply, verkovesky was told what to do, then when one of the people left a note on his page i am a troll i lost my cool, i did not mean to, and yea, i understand these things sounds mean, but again, when will one nice administrator look into suggestions,i am sick of being accused for all these months of being vandal, i may be uncivil at times (but mostly i am not), BUT I CAN NOT TAKE THIS ATTACK AND ATTACK AND SO ON. I simply try to improve few links on wiki and you call me troll, shame on you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.0.166 (talk • contribs) .

Not typing in all caps would be a great first step in achieving a more collaborative spirit with the other members of the community. Rray 02:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Many of us have tried to reason with this editor. God knows we've tried. I for one am weary of it. We've tried to explain civility, NPOV, calmness, no personal attacks ... he has responded with extended campaigns of vandalism, revert wars, "I WIN I GET MY WAY,YOU ADMINS ALL VANDALS," other similar comma-spliced invective, torrents of e-mail to Jimbo (which is why the pages are deleted), --and yet he keeps coming back. Again, again, and again. This time I noticed that many people were colliding with him but none seemed to notice that they were not alone, and that there was a long story here. He seems to have valuable knowledge on a lot of topics, but a complete inability to work with other people in any kind of collaborative enterprise. It seems to me utterly hopeless.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to deal with this, I'd love to hear them. Antandrus (talk) 02:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply to real vandals...

Antandrus was never fair, nothing else, he reasoned with me? he never helped me, did he ever ever try to fix the proble, no, never, ever, hopeless, where were you when i needed assistance all the way back in january, where were you, shame on you, you are one of the 5 administrators i had problems, with the rest, i was able to communicate (even though they were no help at all) what grammar error, i dare you find those errors, none and good to know u unblocked that page, for long time i wanted to know what's that, 90% is pure garbage and nothing to do with me. I do know who you are and you keep on playing games, that will not be forgiven... If i do something wrong, where is your assistance, none, if i do things right, which they are mostly right, where is thank you, ok, good job, never, why, you do not want to be seen wrong. Also why do you use name of GOd, God knows, God knows you did everything wrong, from very beginning with instruuctions to revert everything on site, also wales clearly said not to recreate the site and what are you doing, so many of you administrators do not belong here. So far only Ray wants to talk to me about why certain link should be included. And who knows if you can even reply to this and prove anything you say.

Back in January you were vandalising us, and we were asking you to stop. Whatever. Have a nice day. Antandrus (talk) 23:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Is mentioning Occam's Razor a threat?

Admin User:MONGO just threatened to block User:SalvNaut indefinitely for playfully suggesting that User:Tbeatty misuse use of the logical principle Occam's razor may "cut something important." Mongo left a note on SalvNaut's talk page warning against "suggesting bodily harm" and that he will block SalvNaut indefinitely." . Can someone have a word with Mongo about this? He either doesn't understand what Occam's Rasor is or he has seriously lost perspective. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 14:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Admin Seabhcan was blocked for making a personal attack on an editor just yesterday..so his perspective regarding personal attacks is somewhat askew is seems. Your perception that SalvNaut was being "playful" is a matter of perspective. Tbeatty said that Occum's Razor applies and SalvNaut's full comment about Occam's Razor was " Be careful with razors, you can cut something important." which I see as an implied hope of physical harm. In addition to that, SalvNaut also had to cross out a comment where he called Tbeatty a liar as shown in that diff.--MONGO 14:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, your own block record isn't a pretty sight either, so I'm surprised you raised that issue. Comments which are "a matter of perspective" are not crimes worthy of an indefinite. I suggest you are using your admin powers to bully SalvNaut. You have been in a content dispute with him for quite a while. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 14:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you mean the wrongful block for 3RR which was retracted? Or the block for 15 minutes by now departed Kelly Martin which she even admitted was a poor thing for her to do. I now see you have also decided to call my efforts to keep people from posting comments that suggest bodily harm as "idiotic"...just more food for the record I guess. Perhaps the threat of an infe block is a bit much, but we routinely do block those who make a death threat and I prefer to go firm rather than be passive agressive...I'll rephrase it.--MONGO 15:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Word of advice, Mongo: fallacies work better as attacks than as a defense. (I see a Many Questions and an Ad Hominem here for starters.) — NRen2k5 13:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

That comment about being careful with razors is a pun, a play on words. We indefinitely block people for puns these days? --Tango 15:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The "pun" is a matter of perspective...that talk page is always heated, so it's unlikely that editors who always dispute each other there have much concern for one another...also, the threat wasn't about Occams Razor as the heading of this shows, itr was about the comment made by SalvNaut...that is the issue. If you don't know all the facts, then stay out of the argument.--MONGO 15:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, watch it with the fallacious arguments. Ad hominem "If you don't know all the facts, then stay out of the argument." — NRen2k5 13:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you seriously think he was suggesting any kind of violence with that comment? It's a pun. There's no matter of perspective, it's just a simple pun. --Tango 15:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I see no threat in the edit at all. Occam's Razor is the well-known philosophical/scientific principle to prefer the most simple explanation consistent with the facts. I see the suggestion that it might "cut something important" is a witty way to warn against miss-application, not a threat with bodily harm. Occam's Razor cuts crap, not meat. Also, may I suggest that all involved keep WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, and in particular WP:COOL in mind? Thanks! --Stephan Schulz 15:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The article talkpage is always heated, so comments where one is incivil suggesting that they are even indirectly suggesting physical harm are at the very leats incivil. SlavNaut also struck out his previous comment to Tbeatty where he had called him a liar. Why don't both or either of you watchlist the talkpage for a few days and as neutral parties, ensure civility is maintained.--MONGO 15:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, I think you should admit that you are an active participant in that talk page discussion and at least partly responsible for some of that `heat'. It is improper to threaten your admin powers to gain the upper hand in a content dispute.... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 15:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, your alteration to this new username you are using is an obvious pun on Osama bin laden. It borders on a WP:POINT violation.--MONGO 15:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me Mongo, it isn't. `al' means `the' and `bin' means `son of'. Its actually a tip of the hat to Ibin Battuta, who I'm read and enjoying at the moment. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 15:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, "If you don't know all the facts, then stay out of the argument" - don't WP:BITE people commenting on the case. As for SalvNaut and saying "it's unlikely that editors who always dispute each other there have much concern for one another" - that sounds like a monumental failure to Assume Good Faith. Most worrying is that you are very far from being a dispassionate observer of the SalvNaut-Tbeaty conversation. You are deeply involved in a long running content dispute against SalvNaut and for Tbeatty. It looks like you are threatening your admin powers in order to win that arguement. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 15:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you mean as in cited here... whrre you protected a page and then edited it?--MONGO 15:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what other people do, and besides, protecting an article to get your version in is considerably better than blocking someone frivolously. -Amarkov _edits 15:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

SeabHcan shouldn't throw stones, is the point. "protecting an article to get your version in is considerably better than blocking someone frivolously"....I'll remember that line when you decide to become an admin...it is not a friviolous block if someone is being repeatedly incivil...as clearly demonstrated...first calling the guy a liar, which he struck out and then in the same edit, added the comment about the razor, which had nothing to do with the argument.--MONGO 15:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, you do know that Occam's Razer isn't an actual razor blade, right? ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 15:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, User:Seabhcan's previous record is irrelevant for this dispute. He is just the messenger. As I see it from the history, User:SalvNaut made a point in the discussion and called the opposing view by User:Tbeatty "lies". This was arguably incivil, and Tbeatty called him on it (and made a counter-point, invoking Occam's Razor). SalvNaut then struck out the "lie" part and replaced it with a more neutral phrase. He also took up the Occam's Razor term and warned against blind application. I see no reason for your warning at all. --Stephan Schulz 16:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Mongo has again threatened SalvNaut with a block but seems to have changed his mind about the 'indefinite' part. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 15:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Mongo has now warned User:Tango ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 16:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Even if Occum's razor were a real razor (and it's clearly not), I cannot possibly comprehend how that statement could be perceived as a threat. I'm sure you've been told at some point in your life not to run with scissors because you might cut yourself. Is that a threat??? No! -- tariqabjotu 16:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a matter of perspective. The perspective is that that talk page is full of heated comments, so under the cuff commentary between two editors in constant dispute that alludes to anything suggesting physical harm is something to take note of. As shown, the previous comment was stuck out.--MONGO 17:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there anyone else with this perspective? Should you really be threatening to block a user you are having a content dispute with in such a debatable case? Wouldn't a polite warning or request for clarification be enough?... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 17:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but then again, this is an issue of civility in which an editor has alluded to personal harm. I may very well be the ONLY one who sees it that way. Thanks for the clarification and of course, no block has been issued or will be, at least, not by me.--MONGO 17:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

So you won't be blocking this user? Perhaps you will remove your threat to do so from the users talk page? An apology might also be propper.... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 17:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

wow. SchmuckyTheCat 17:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

A silly and somewhat inappropriate pun -- agree that it's something that SalvNaut should remember can be interpreted the wrong way, particularly on the talk pages of contentious topics. But MONGO, the indefinite block warning was a little over the top, don't you think? -- Samir धर्म 01:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry MONGO, I'm just not seeing it. Occam's Razor comes up an awful lot in philosophical discussions and the most common admonitions to someone using it are "watch out, it cuts both ways" and "don't cut something important". It's certainly not a threat of physical harm at all; it's merely an intellectual play on words, with Occam's razor being imagined as a literal razor that is snipping through overly-complex ideas. It's not a "matter of perspective"; you're simply trying to twist the meaning of an innocuous statement to turn it into an actionable threat. I would suggest that, in the future, you don't threaten to use admin actions against people you're involved in content disputes with; if you're so involved you cannot accurately interpret what they're saying, you certainly shouldn't be blocking them for it. Please call in a third-party observer next time. --Cyde Weys 23:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This has been a problem once before when MONGO wanted to have an article call some people "conspiracy theorists", another user reverted that as not being neutral, and MONGO blocked them and threatened to reblock for a week if the user reverted him again. In that case there was not even a thin justification like this 'threat of violence with Occam's razor'... rather a direct statement that he would use his admin position to 'win' the content dispute. While the community largely gave him a pass (incorrectly IMO as that block threat was beyond the pale) there was a general agreement that he should refrain from admin actions/threats for disputes he is involved in. This current incident seems to be very much along the same lines. --CBD 12:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Is mentioning Occam's Razor a threat? (cont.)

Moved to Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Seabhcan#Moved_from_ANI as suggestion by Tom. Travb (talk) 19:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

User:PalestineRemembered

As his name indicates, User:PalestineRemembered has joined Misplaced Pages for the purpose of advocating for a specific political position. This often becomes problematic in terms of the undue weight provisions of WP:NPOV, and in particular because of the WP:BLP, as he often writes about Israeli leaders (e.g. Benjamin Netanyahu) or those he views as Zionists (e.g. Alan Dershowitz) solely for the purpose of vilifying them. While this would be problematic enough, he seems completely unable to understand the concept of original research, no matter how many times the concept is explained; some examples include , , and He seems to have no compunction about replacing cited information from reliable sources with his own speculation and arguments, using dubious sources at best. In addition, his Talk: page comments are intemperate at best, and often highly uncivil; see, for example, , or the entire Talk:Flag of Israel page starting at Talk:Flag_of_Israel#Separation_of_Church_and_State. I am currently unaware of a single edit of his that has actually managed to stick in an article, though one or two might have slipped through, and most of his Talk: page comments consist of political rants. At this point I'm thinking a significant block of some sort would be in order, if only to give him time to read and understand WP:NOR and WP:BLP, though I despair that it will help. Any other suggestions? Jayjg 23:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking over his contributions, I'm hard pressed to find more than a couple that aren't dubious. He does appear to impervious to reason and policy, so an attention-getting block seems justified to me. FeloniousMonk 23:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This seems pretty justifiable to me. Hopefully now PR can understand how Misplaced Pages policy works, and he/she will be able to follow them. Khoikhoi 23:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I gave him a one month time out. I was leaning toward 2-3 weeks, but the WP:CIVIL violations pushed him over the top. FeloniousMonk 23:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I support the block. ←Humus sapiens 04:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I also support this. I've seen some bizarre edits that are pure OR, yet he doesn't seem to get it no matter how often it's explained. SlimVirgin 04:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It's weird: I've seen some completely POV and OR comments from PR, but then I've seen some that are ridiculously the opposite and pro israel. I do agree, however, with Felonious Monk and SV that the majority of the edits are bizarre. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 16:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familliar with PR, but on a related note, am considering changing my username to Israel intro chnages remembered, alebit briefly. El_C 00:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There are quite a few more problematic editors haunting Middle-East-related pages at the moment, such as User:Amoruso and User:Shamir1. PalestineRemembered has some good contributions, unlike them, so I would suggest dealing with the irremediable first and then coming back to the cases of doubt. Though I should add that most of my experience of them have been in the opposite situation to that cited here, i.e. Amoruso et al making ludicrously POV changes and PR disputing them. Palmiro | Talk 01:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This section is about PalestineRemembered, not about other editors with whom you have content disagreements. Jayjg 10:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you offer examples of PR's good contributions? SlimVirgin 03:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

When a quick action was taken against PalestineRemembered, the slowness of action against Amoruso and Shamir who have same (or worse) behaviour is highly questionable. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 13:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This section is about PalestineRemembered, not about other editors with whom you have content disagreements. Jayjg 17:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Page disruption on Juan Cole by User:Commodore Sloat

Hi, I would like someone to look at the recent history of the page and note csloat's continual page disruptions. At the moment, it hasn't got to 3RR, but it's frustrating to deal with an editor who incorrectly thinks his veto trumps the consensus on what is, or isn't to be included, and engages in ad nauseum arguments on talk which will only result in incivility and further frustration. << armon >> 05:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ad nauseum comments on talk are how disagreements are supposed to get resolved. Csloat seems to be making a good faith effort to document the source and reasoning behind their input. At the moment, I see a lot of talking past each other on the talk page; it's a little disruptive on both sides, but there's nothing on first inspection that's a policy violation. This doesn't seem like it needs any ANI involvement. Try harder on the talk page in good faith, please. Georgewilliamherbert 05:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

OK well do think this is a good case for mediation? Seriously, the discussion has gone nowhere for months. << armon >> 06:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation is never a bad idea, or maybe an article RfC. I don't disagree that it seems to be a long running nonproductive argument, but there being a long-running nonproductive argument doesn't equal a policy or abuse issue. These are what mediators and article RfCs and such are for. Neither side on first inspection has really abused anything, but figuring out how to perhaps come to an actual understanding with someone else's help might be worthwhile. Georgewilliamherbert 06:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation and/or RfC sounds great to me -- really, I would be happy about any way of bringing other voices into the discussion, which has become dominated by people with an agenda. I don't think it is productive for editors to continue making misleading statements about "disruption" to WP:ANI or throwing around false charges of vandalism. This is a content dispute, not a dispute about violations of Misplaced Pages rules, and it is not a good idea to pursue content disputes as if they were rules violations. It's also courteous to let someone know you are reporting them (or to warn them beforehand) -- I think the goal should be to encourage disruptive editors to edit more productively rather than to "discipline" them. In any case, it's clear that I have not been disruptive on the page, but I look forward to bringing more voices into the discussion; I certainly agree with Armon that it has become unproductive. csloat 22:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have an opinion on what is and isn't notable, I do not have a nefarious "agenda". csloat (and Will, below) appear to have trouble making that distinction, or understanding that whatever your agenda happens to be, it's not appropriate to edit according to it. IMO if this was a simple content dispute, it should have be "fixable" via reasoned debate, and appeals to the evidence before now. Instead, csloat has engaged in continual edit-wars, attacks the motives of those who don't agree with him, and simply dismisses any attempt find common ground -all the while, demanding everyone else AGF. At some stage, it seems to me, that this needs to be addressed as page disruption. << armon >> 03:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I ever used the word "nefarious" or that I singled you out as the only editor with an agenda. There is no evidence of "disruption" in any of the comments you have cherry-picked out of those discussions. There is evidence only that I have tried to vigorously defend WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, and WP:RS. You may see those rules different from me and that is where the content dispute arises. I am welcoming additional editors to the content dispute who don't have a "horse in the race" since I think both of us (and Will and Isarig and Elizmr) have pretty clear opinions on the issue. You are raising charges of "disruption" - which have now been rejected by an admin who looked at the page - in order to prevent one side from participating in the discussion. As I said, the Misplaced Pages rules are not there to be used as a hammer when you feel you can't support your arguments in a content dispute. Personally, I think it is disruptive to claim "vandalism" when there is none or to post charges to WP:ANI that are invalid on their face. Let's discontinue this nonsense and get back to discussing the article, shall we? csloat 20:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess i've gotten unblocked. Armon thinks the Cole page biography needs to be about Karsh smearng Cole with the protocols of Elders of Zion qote. this has been going on for about a year and a half. the page was protected at one time because of this. Even jimbo wales made an appearance. The matter was resolved by starting a separate page for V&C where the invidious Karsh Elders of Zion quote could reside. Now the V&C page has been done away with. And the Cole detractors want to make the "Protocols" live in spite of WP:BLP. Cole is not an ant-semite or new-anti-semite. However, he is a critic of a greater Israel or denial of the rights of the Palestinians. This puts him squarely in the gunsights of certain people. Juan Cole deserves a fair shake on Misplaced Pages and fighting for a fair page is not "disruptive." CSloat just happens to be of the Jewish faith. Moreover, he is a university professor. I don't know why he wastes his time reasoning with the seemingly unreasoning. More wikilawering to silence perceived ideological opponents. Sorry, I just have to tell it like I see it. It's called integrity. Will65.184.213.36 22:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I want to unblock the IP address 203.144.160.248

Hi Guys

User 203.144.160.248 has recently been blocked. The user has only recently visited wiki site and learned that the user's name - "Pongsak Hoontrakul" appeared on the list of Economists. It The name was in red and was blocked as well. Please see the details below:

Your account or IP address has been blocked from editing. You were blocked by Winhunter for the following reason (see our blocking policy): Continuation of Centrx's block; AB Your IP address is 203.144.160.248. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Siripen (talk • contribs) .

Raul654 comments in my e-mail.

This message was in my e-mail when I logged on:

JonMoseley <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.net> to me

I demand that you TERMINATE Raul654 from any rights or authority at Misplaced Pages. Raul654 is pushing a left-wing BIASED perspective on the page for Global Warming. There are numerous false statements which I corrected -- backed up by clear citations for each point. I allowed those statements to remain but BALANCED the discussion with CITATIONS to hard facts. And rather than confront the hard citations that I provided, Raul654 HID FROM HIS ATTEMPTS TO LIE in the Misplaced Pages article by blocking me. He did not identify anything incorrect about the corrections I provided. He did not counter with any other citations to the contrary. He only LIED and said that the matters had been previously discussed on the Talk page. THEY HAD NOT BEEN PREVIOUSLY DISCUSSED ON THE TALK PAGE. The first mention was today. If Misplaced Pages is exposed as being a nest of left-wing activists, it will harm the entire enterprise. Trust me when I say I have the news media connections to make the truth clear.

Does anyone know the background to this and is prepared to comment/resolve the issue? I will post a message linking to here to Raul654 as well. (aeropagitica) 14:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

There's only one thing that can be said about things like this: oh my god! Not another pov-pusher trying to accuse wikipedia of a left-wing/right-wing/communist/fascist/terrorist-loving/treehugging/appeasing/anti-American/anti-Semitic or any other bias... Aecis 14:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Its a bird, its a plane, its the Cabal! Shell 14:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree with User:Aecis, it appears User:JonMoseley has been reverted several times by User:Raul654 et. al. (and a quick look at edit history would suggest User:JackMcGuire is the same editor). Looks like another case of "NPOV = My POV and I have powerful friends if you disagree".--Isotope23 14:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

At least one other admin emailed me to ask why he got this. I wonder how many he sent out? Here's the love note he sent to me:

I have also just realized that you have violated Misplaced Pages's CHECK USER policy.

I will be contacting Misplaced Pages's board about this violation of the established policy.

Why don't we use this opportunity to go and vote for my bug so the developers fix it, and we don't have to put up with this nonsense anymore. Raul654 15:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

why do we even discuss this here? People should delete such emails on sight. dab (ᛏ) 16:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Because there's no physical location for Wikipedians to gather after an "interesting" period of interaction here & swap war stories over their favorite beverages. (I've been told Jimbo's been seen in the brew pub down the street from my house, but I doubt he goes there on a regular basis.) --llywrch 07:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• They've been reverted by at least 3 different users. There's no conspiracy here, let alone abuse by Raul. Keep them blocked. - Mgm| 17:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Did he also threaten to SUE YOU IN A COURT OF LAW IN TRENTON, NEW JERSEY? --Slowking Man 02:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the fun you get from being the first sysop on the list. ;-) Prodego 02:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - not able to connect the words "news", "media", "truth" and "clear" without falling off the chair laughing. --Alf 11:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you would need an option to block users e-mail ability, isn't easier to just set up a filter to automatically delete mail from the users e-mail address? Anyone willing to use multiple e-mail accounts would be willing to make multiple wikipedia accounts as well, so that advantage is removed. You could, however, block account creation, but would that work on a registered account? If the e-mail block was set to work with the autoblock to circumvent multiple account creation it limits the number of e-mails people blocked as collateral damage can send. Overall, there are more important bugs that need voting for instead. ;-) Prodego 20:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism on Albert Einstein

Perhaps one of you who thinks that Albert Einstein does not deserve permanent semi-protection would be so good as to repair this vandalism which has been there un-reverted for 3½ hours. Yes, I know I could revert it myself, and I used to—until I gave up on the futile effort of trying to guard this article without semi-protection. --teb728 21:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The article was semi-protected this morning. In future, you can get a faster response posting at Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection. Cheers, Kla'quot 03:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I went to WP:RPP twice before and got protection for short periods, but that protection was quickly removed by admins who don't believe in protection. The last time it was unprotected, I came here to protest and was informed that Misplaced Pages relies on editors' reverting vandalism not on protection. Well, I figure that admins who won't protect articles should do the reverting. And as I pointed out in my original post, you can't always depend on editors to do the job when they are faced with the volume of vandalism this article sees without protection. --teb728 04:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I see your point now. BTW for everyone else reading this: I requested semi-protection yesterday morning before I saw TEB728's comment here on AN/I. Both of us had seen the same flare-up of vandalism on Albert Einstein. Admins, what does it take to get indefinite semi-protection on an article? Kla'quot 09:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Too harsh a punishment

Because I have previously edited this page (as has Pschemp) I ask that the following blocks be reviewed:

• 22:38, 27 November 2006 Pschemp (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "207.70.152.4 (contribs)" with an expiry time of 48 hours (vandalism)

This comes a full 7 hours after the last edit. After the anonymous user received a warning on their talk page, they have not continued the disruptive behavior. So what purpose does the block serve other than to be punitive, as the editor has brought there actions inline with our traditions.

Also this block fails to assume good faith:

• 22:37, 27 November 2006 Pschemp (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "68.100.239.10 (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 week (vandalism)

The editor has two edits:

• 22:31, 27 November 2006 (hist) (diff) Temple garment (→Construction and symbolism of the garment - deleted offensive picture)
• 05:17, 6 September 2006 (hist) (diff) The Greatest American Hero

The only justification for such a long block after 1 edit is if that IP is a sockpuppet of an existing user. But we have no proof of that and as I tried to explain on the Pschemp's talk page, this kind of vandalism is not unexpected given that the picture is very disrespectful to many people's belief systems. What we need to do is educate and welcome - not smack them for trying to make a contribution they feel is their duty. The first user shows, once educated, these users will stop being disruptive. --Trödel 23:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Adding:

• 23:14, 27 November 2006 Pschemp (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "71.195.224.15 (contribs)" with an expiry time of 48 hours (vandalism)

Again two edits only:

• 22:55, 27 November 2006 (hist) (diff) Temple garment (→Construction and symbolism of the garment)
• 04:33, 26 November 2006 (hist) (diff) Parasympathetic nervous system (→Relationship to sympathetic nervous system)

Again overly harsh and failure to assume good faith. --Trödel 23:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

My experiance with this adminstrator is limited to receiving a week long block for "trolling" after my uncontroversial participation in discussion on this page. The gory details are here. - 152.91.9.144 00:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I will admit that this seems to be wrong. A user should not be blocked quite so immediately, and blocking someone for mentioning this problem is wholly and completely out of line. Patstuart 01:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you discuss this with the blocking admin before bringing this here? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes here --Trödel 03:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Did any of you notice that I changed the block to 48 hours? Obviously not. Get your facts straight before you complain. Additionally, the edit pattern shows this is a user who is hopping from IP to IP and making the same edit repeatedly in a short amount of time. It isn't a new innocent IP every time, its the same guy who was already reverted 3 times. The only way to deal with people using proxies is to block immediately. However, the entire issue has been resolved since the page is now semi-protected so the IP vandals can talk about their feelings on the talk page first. (which Trodel agreed was a good solution) We had a discussion and came to conclusions. Trodel's posting here is superfluous. pschemp | talk 17:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If it is superfllous then there was no reason to keep the block in place, yet you did. --Trödel 00:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Trodel, the posting here was superfluous because we were happily discussing it on my talk page. That's what I was referring to. The block was not. pschemp | talk 19:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd be happy if pschemp could acknowledge that there might be any problem with her blocking strategy. Looking back over the last month or so, the vast majority of her blocks are no-nonsense username and vandalism-only accounts. However her use of "trolling" as a block reason appears somewhat hit-or-miss. Leaving aside her blocking me, a quick glance back shows

• 04:34, 25 November 2006 Pschemp blocked "NYScholar (talk • contribs)" with an expiry time of 24 hours (trolling and disruption on user talk pages.)

where a serious contributor was blocked for a straightforward (if strident) dialog on a user talk page. Again, without warning or clear justification. The weakness of the {{unblock}} procedure is also made clear by this exchange, by the way. If these more controversial blocks could be brought here for review and Pschemp was a bit more open to dialog regarding the blocks, there would be no problem here. Incivility in the manner of "Get your facts straight" does nothing to further the collegial environment we would all like to edit in.
152.91.9.144 02:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh that's your issue. I think if you remember correctly another administrator reviewed that block and found it appropriate. As did the person whose page you were disrupting. If you'd like to complain about that block, go start another section. Continuing to whine here about an action already deemed appropriate by four admins is childish. (and "does nothing to further the collegial environment we would all like to edit in.") pschemp | talk 19:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC) Notice I said start a "new" section on your personal issue, not "move this section down". pschemp | talk 22:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• The (first) response is not only rude in "continuing to whine" but doesn't *ahem* get it's facts straight. (It conflates several different incidents.) Blocks, like all applications of adminstrator privledge (and in fact all Misplaced Pages edits) are subject to review and discussion. The ability to take part in discussions about one's actions in a civil and rational manner is in fact a pre-requisite to participation here. I'd ask if the level of venom could be turned down just a tad. I'm also asking (as Trödel is) for some adminstrator input into pschemp's blocking, so a "another section" is not called for. - 152.91.9.144 22:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Do not move this section out of time order again. pschemp | talk 22:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This diff says all I have to say. Another uninvolved admin felt the block was justified. The person's whose page it was on did not disagree either. If you want to complain, you'd better complain about all three of us. And yes, you are whining. And no its not uncivil to point out what you are doing. pschemp | talk 23:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I shall desist from pointing out your incivility, and instead leave it to other reasonable people to determine it. With regards to your block of NYScholar (talk • contribs), here is the edit that you blocked him without warning for, and that the reviewing admin called "flaming." There is not a rude word in it. I might also add that the "few hours to calm down" comments are due to what, the words "REQUEST FOR UNBLOCK" in capital letters? This block was out of line, the review was half-arsed, and your hostility is deeply unbecoming. If you are unable to handle civil, reasonable requests for examination of your blocks, don't make them. When we're finished with talking about your NYScholar "trolling" block we can look at your one-week block of this IP. - 152.91.9.144 23:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Do not reformat my comments. Also, the week blocked was immediately reduced to 48 hours after a discussion with Trodel. I'm sorry you don't like the action with NYScholar but 4 admins agreed with it. I have nothing more to say to you. pschemp | talk 23:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Help wanted

Some time back I wandered into what is obviously a bitter external dispute between proponents of personal rapid transit (PRT) including User:Fresheneesz, User:Skybum and User:ATren; and a cartoonist and environmentalist, User:Avidor, engaged in a campaign against PRT, which was apparently being used as a stalking horse against light rail in Minnesota. I made many changes to the article which were initially welcomed, but the PRT proponents decided they didn't like the fact that, overall, I insist on the article reflecting the fact that no such system currently exists anywhere in the world. User:Stephen B Streater did some sterling work too, and they had less of a problem with him.

ATren, formerly "A Transportation Enthusiast" has a blog, http://weinerwatch.blogspot.com/, which attacks Avidor and also makes very plain the fact that ATren is a strong proponent of PRT. Which is where it gets messy. ATren is currently loudly demanding on my Talk page that I denounce Avidor's bias. I have said that that I am opposed to all abuse of Misplaced Pages for political ends, but ATren will accept nothing less than singling out one side of this plainly bilateral dispute. ATren flatyly refuses to admit that he has any bias, paints his bias as neutral, and insists that anyone more sceptical than he is themselves biased. I don't see why I'm supposed to have a view on the subject beyond an engineer's usual curioisyty about some new subject, but there is no possible doubt that overall the article is about a system of widescale urban tranport, whereas in practice after forty-odd years of debate we have a couple of test tracks and (now) two orders to service car parks at Heathrow and Dubai.

We have found a good, neutral, impartial source which states that the literature of around 200 published papers is typically favourable and marked by a lack of self-criticism. It states that the concept faces "formidable" challenges in the shape of political opposition, indifference, unproven technologies and vested interests (which I reckon is spot on - remember, this is supposed to replace use of the private automobile in entire cities).

Note: this is false - no PRT proposal I've ever seen aims to replace the car. PRT is always proposed as a multi-modal solution with cars and possibly other forms of public transit. ATren 08:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

We have a statement from the Minnesota Sierra Club, a group which might ordinarily be expected to support anything which would reduce private car use, which enumerates these challenges and therefore resolves to oppose the PRT proposal in Minnesota. Nope. Can't have that - it's "astroturfing". Silly of me even to think that the Sierra Club might be actual opposition rather than fake opposition. Meanwhile the literature is still verifiably dominated by a lack of self-criticism and the technology still faces verifiably formidable challenges...

One day the Heathrow system will open and we will have a solid basis for an article. Until then we have a fanwank which desperately needs to be brought down to earth. But I find Avidor's Roadkill Bill cartoon (agit-prop for integrated urban planning) funny so obviously I am quite incapable of forming a balanced judgement on the issue. Or something. I don't want to lose my temper with this argumentative pair so I've come here to vent my spleen a bit and see if anyone else feels like chucking a bucket of cold water over them for me.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Thanks for your time, anyway. Guy (Help!) 23:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Several points in response, since JzG is misrepresenting this dispute:

• The "stalking horse" theory that JzG mentions is unverifiable fluff that has no basis in reality. Avidor has been on an anti-PRT political crusade (, etc)for over 3 years, spreading disinformation like the "stalking horse" theory all over the Internet. He's also admitted to using sock puppet identities to spread his message. There is no basis to any of his conspiracy theories.
• I came upon Avidor when he tried to push his completely unverifiable POV here on Misplaced Pages, in order to sway local political elections in Minnesota. He spent several months gaming the NPOV tag on the PRT page, and using the "disputed POV" tag as evidence that the Misplaced Pages article was being infiltrated by "pro-PRT cultists", in his political blogs and forums. This seemed to be a blatant misuse of Misplaced Pages as a platform for political propaganda.
• JzG came along in the dispute and immediately expressed admiration for Avidor and his cartoon - in fact, he created the Misplaced Pages article on Avidor's cartoon and later defended it from deletion. Despite his admitted affection for Avidor, he proceeded with the mediation. Personally, I was concerned that he was such a fan of Avidor, but I trusted that he would recuse himself if he couldn't be neutral.
• Over the next several months, JzG was positively hostile to the three editors on the other side of the dispute. Even though we all agreed on perhaps 90% of his edits without argument, he repeatedly accused us of POV pushing for any change we made, reverting of all our edits on sight and threatening (twice!) to lock down the article. The threats to lock the article were particularly egregious because (a) they were done at the behest of Avidor (Avidor posted this 30 minutes before JzG's initial threat), and (b) they were based on his own misreading of a single word in one of Skybum's edits. Even after Skybum (who, unlike Avidor, has always been a good faith editor) politely told JzG he misread the word, JzG continued to insist he read it right and threatened Skybum again, insisting he had read it correctly, even though the history showed he clearly didn't! It was clear that JzG was not only willing to do Avidor's bidding, but was unwilling to consider any argument from the reasonable editors on the other side (none of whom had a political agenda, as Avidor did). In the months after that, JzG continued to revert almost every change we made, no matter how small, and in many cases insinuating that we were POV pushing. The absoluteness of his reverts made it clear that he owned the article - and after his threats to lock it, we really had no way to fight it.
• The Minneapolis Sierra Club supports Minneapolis light rail, which competes against PRT for funding, and therefore they opposed PRT. They are a local chapter of an environmental group. Against this, the European Union has endorsed PRT in cities - they did a 3 year study of PRT and endorsed it unequivocally. The study was rigorous, involving 16 partners in academia, transit consulting, and city planning, and focused on 4 different PRT schemes in 5 cities. This augments 40 years of peer reviewed research, several textbooks devoted to PRT design, and fully-functioning prototypes that have carried passengers. Despite all this, JzG continues to call it "pseudo-science" - despite the existence of fully-functioning prototypes. He's also called it a "quixotic dream". To me, it's clear he is sympathetic to the unsupportable POV of Avidor, that PRT is a fraud and a hoax.
• I have absolutely no political agenda. I stumbled upon PRT a year ago, and I was shocked at the amount of blatant disinformation being spread by a single individual. I therefore decided, in the interest of truth, to set the record straight. Hence, my blog, which is apolitical. I only use it to answer the disinformation that Avidor spreads, and to call out the people who implicitly support him by quoting his propaganda. However, I challenge anyone to scour my blog and find any statement of political support. Even when I reference politicians, it's purely in the context of their statements on PRT. Despite this, JzG has begun to accuse me of having a political motive - apparently someone just fighting for truth can't be believed. In any event, I would be willing to reveal myself to a neutral third party to confirm everything I've said.
• I have nothing to do with PRT, PRT companies, or PRT advocacy. I have absolutely no financial interest in PRT companies. I've never even met a PRT "proponent".

The fact is this: when someone we admire is involved in a dispute, try as we might, it is very difficult to remain neutral. JzG has a clear affection for Avidor, and therefore has taken much of Avidor's views at face value, including the undue level of skepticism for a technology that has a large amount of verifiable support. JzG should have recused himself from this mediation from the beginning, because his affection for Avidor affects his neutrality. ATren 01:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

ATren 01:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

ATren/A.T.E. has been ranting about me all over the internet for a year or so... He got banned from the Seattle Post Intelligencer forum for ranting: Here's ATren's trying to intimidate another Misplaced Pages administrator : "So now you're bowing out, eh? You went in and empowered that fucking idiot and now you're dropping it on the floor. You are as much a moron as he is.".... as for the claim that I am the only skeptic of PRT, read this: "Like gold standard crazies, intelligent design ideologues and cold-fusion enthusiasts, Personal Rapid Transit nuts see something the rest of the world doesn't see and think they are visionaries as a result. Since there is no "true" PRT system anywhere in the world for these people to spend all day riding around in, they spend their time comment-spamming blogs like ours. A similar blog, publictransit.us, had enough of it and decided to fact-check the PRT claims. They found claims of systems that don't exist and studies that were never conducted. I think that pretty much ends the discussion."...I wish somebody at Misplaced Pages would do something to stop these personal attacks by this anonymous "editor"...Avidor 02:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I did write that comment, but it was my first month on Misplaced Pages, and I didn't understand the way things worked then. Also, that comment was after several weeks of Avidor edit warring the NPOV tag (for the express purpose of advancing his political campaign), as well as incessant linkspam and personal attacks on the talk page (repeatedly calling editors of the PRT article "cultists"), and I simply lost my temper. Some examples of Avidor's comments on that talk page: "If I fixed that, the PRT cultists would change it back...", "No links to anything real... just true believers in a lost cause following crackpot 'visionaries'...", "Yep, the PRT cult is in firm control of this Misplaced Pages page..." ATren 03:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, ATren, for giving everyone a perfect example of the problem: you portray your bias as neutrality, and anyone who disagrees with you as biased. Note that Avidor (unlike ATren) has not edited that page for over six months. This is not about your off-wiki fight, it's about a Misplaced Pages article (do not bring your battles to Misplaced Pages). Stalking horse is unverifiable fluff? Not according to the Sierra Club it's not - but of course they are biased, it's only you who is neutral, right? As Cotterell says, the literature is predominantly supportive and marked by a lack of self-criticism. Citing that literature as evidence of a lack of criticism is not terribly helpful and fails to explain the observed fact that after over forty years of discussion not one real-world system currently exists. The article is about a wide-scale urban transit system, but the only projects looking likely to be completed in the near future are in car parks, nothing like we describe in the article. You may think it's perfectly fine to document the PRT proponents' dreams and ignore the realities, I happen to disagree, based on my well-documented bias against using Misplaced Pages to promote new, great things which might one day change the world. Guy (Help!) 10:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha! Locate me one single reliable source on the stalking horse global conspiracy theory. Go ahead. Find me one. For the uninitiated, the stalking horse theory is Avidor's pet conspiracy which claims that hundreds of researchers on 3 continents have spent the last 40 years perpetrating a hoax - all for the purpose of blocking a Minneapolis light rail line! This is the ridiculous conspiracy theory that I've fought nearly a year to keep out of the PRT article, as Guy has done everything he can to get Avidor's completely unverifiable POV into the article. He started out trying to get Avidor's tasteless anti-PRT propaganda cartoon in. Nobody supported that, so he tried pushing content from the Light Rail Now astroturfing group - a group that contains unverifiable anti-PRT content written by Avidor! When that was rejected, he found a single paper that kinda-sorta is critical of PRT literature - not PRT itself, mind you - and had used that one conference paper to invalidate 40 years of research. Now, Guy is pushing a resolution by the Minneapolis Sierra Club (which, for all we know, has Avidor as a member!) into the top of the article, while he suppresses content from peer-reviewed journals and engineering conferences as biased. Can anyone, even a well-respected admin like Guy, justify such a position? I am at wits end here - this has been a nearly year long dispute, and I'm still arguing that peer reviewed journals are a more reliable source than a local chapter of an environmental group! And yet Guy continues to say I'm the one letting my biases affect my judgement.

BTW, just a point of clarification: Avidor stopped editing the article because he no longer had to - Guy took up his fight. Whenever he wants something done, he just asks Guy to do it and the war starts up again. ATren 14:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hate to repeat it, but content resolution is not the role of admins (you know that, Guy). If it can't be resolved on the article's talk page, take it to RFC or ask for mediation. Proto::type 12:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It was not an administrative action, never was. I went to the article as an editor. My problem is with ATren's months-long campaign of argumentation based on his obdurate refusal to admit to his own personal bias (and I really don't think it's a coincidence that every time I even allude to the dispute in any discussion he pops up and starts all over again). I think I'll just nuke the thread from my Talk page and leave it at that - nothing in the world will ever satisfy ATren other than getting his own way, in this case a unilateral condemnation of the massively less active side of a bipartisan dispute. Guy (Help!) 17:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Guy came to the article as a mediator, not just an editor. He then proceeded to threaten to use admin powers to prevent any change to what he wrote (in response to Skybum's good faith edits - see links above). So which is it? Was Guy an editor, mediator, or admin, or all three? This all came up again because he wrote comments in an arb com case implying Fresheneesz was just bitter because his article was deleted, when the dispute went much deeper than that. In fact, Fresheneesz, Skybum, and I had repeatedly expressed exasperation at JzG's ownership of the article and rejection of any changes to his version of the article. I am frankly sick of being painted as a POV pusher in this dispute, when in fact there were three other editors who supported me, and all three had the same level of frustration with JzG's actions. ATren 17:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No I didn't. I have never been a member of the mediation cabal or mediation committee. I saw a notice of an edit war and thought the subject looked interesting (still do), so I came along to see what I could do. And you seemed not to have a problem with it until I said that I like Roadkill Bill. Given that Avidor has not edited that article since April, I hardly think his (openly admitted) bias is a pressing problem, and your insistence on continuing to fight a battle that was over, in Misplaced Pages terms anyway, months ago, does you no credit. Neither does your continued campaign of vituperation off Wiki - nobody likes a sore loser. But hey, frustration is a good word - exactly the word I'd use to describe someone who is still coming back with "and another thing!..." half a year after the discussion ended. Why not click Random Article and find something to improve? It's what I sometimes do when I get wound up. It was advice I picked up here, I think. Very sound. Guy (Help!) 18:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a mediation? See : "During a mediation process..." followed soon after with the threat to lock the article. It's clear you considered yourself a mediator, and we treated you as one.

Avidor has not edited the article - but why? Could it be because you are representing his POV - he just lets you know what he wants and you do it? It started with the threat to block the article (which he had requested just 30 minutes earlier -see links above) and has continued even until today:

• Avidor recently mentioned that the link to his personal page was removed, and you immediately restored it, calling his personal anti-PRT propaganda page "notable skepticism".
• Then Avidor gave you a link to a resolution by his local Sierra Club, and despite the questionable reliability of quoting such a group, you immediately added the link the article in the intro! Just to put this into perspective, you have removed journal-sourced content from us, but when Avidor sends you a link to a one-page resolution from a local chapter of an environmental group, you put it in the intro!

I can cite many other examples of you doing what Avidor asked, including the Unimodal page, which you submitted for deletion soon after Avidor started complaining to you about it. Why would Avidor edit the article when he can just ask you to do it for him?

I'd also like to point out that, in addition to Avidor's documented abuses, he has lashed out against Misplaced Pages (see the cartoon on his user page), has quit the project and returned at least twice, and is an active member of Misplaced Pages Review. ATren 19:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This is at the core a content dispute... you should file a Request for Comment or a formal Request for Mediation (as was suggested above by an admin).--Isotope23 20:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not bring this up here - Guy did. I'm just here to defend myself. I won't file an RfC because, in my experience, casual editors like myself do not do well in mediation against respected admins - even when they have a case. ATren 20:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but my point is that you are all beating a dead horse here as an admin already stated above that this is a content dispute and should go through an RfC or RfM...--Isotope23 21:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. ATren has threatened ArbCom, but dcided not to because of "the cabal". Of the three of us - ATren, Avidor and me - ATren is the onyl one still actively editing that article, the only one pursuing the long-dead dispute, the only one to refuse to acknowledge any personal bias whatsoever. He says I reintroduced a link but forgets to mention that it was he who removed it, despite an ongoing off-wiki dispute with the owner of the site linked. Deleting it? Fine and dandy. Re-introducing it? Bias. Sierra Club article opposed to PRT? Astroturfing. PRT proponent's homepage? Authoritative source. Look at all the terrible things these sceptics - no - pseudoskeptics have done to ruin an article on a technology which will surely exist Real Soon Now! It's a silly spat about really very minor detail of the article, the amount of disruption caused is out of all proportion. He;s also still knocking on about Skytran, a project with no prototype, no backers, no known realistic prospect of existence, which I still don't think deserves an article, but I have left it alone in its much less advertorial form. Left it alone. For months. The guy is obsessed, as his blog clearly shows. And above all, Minnesota, the closest they've yet come to an implementation, was defeated due in no small part to the completely untried nature of the technology. The whole argument is a teapot tempest. Bollocks to it. Guy (Help!) 00:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

We've been asked twice to take this elsewhere - so I will not respond other than to say that most of what JzG says above are outright lies. JzG - take it to RfC or ArbCom if you want - I have absolutely nothing to hide. This is the last comment I will make here. ATren 00:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Let us be thankful for small mercies. I seem to recall that you were the one threatening me with ArbCom, were it not for the fact that it is in the grip of a cabal who would not back you against me. At least your assumption of bad faith is applied consistently to all, which is something I suppose. Guy (Help!) 10:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh... Very few people here in Minnesota give PRT much credence, from what I've heard. Other than this lady. Grandmasterka 11:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOPRO

Just a heads up really - the page that had been in Raul's user space had recently been upgraded to policy. There are still a few discussions at Misplaced Pages talk:Don't protect Main Page featured articles as to how to codify it.

The main change, and reason I've bought this up here, is that the policy now requires admins who protect or semi-protect the Main Page featured article to drop a note here explaining why and how long they think protection should last for. Its hoped that this will stop (Semi)-protection lasting any longer than it needs to. --Robdurbar 23:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I am sure this must have been suggested before, but would there be any objection to having the featured article of the day move protected while it's on the main page? There's really no valid basis on which a user would move that day's FA (or probably any FA) to another article name, so any such moves are highly likely to be vandalism, and inability to move the page doesn't interfere with ability to edit which is the rationale for rarely protecting that day's FA. Newyorkbrad 01:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense to me.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 02:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is standard operating procedure already. Actually, I was surprised to find that today's article hadn't been move-protected yet. Did whoever usually does that forget? Melchoir 03:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The policy does discuss it - move protection is fine though I'm not sure it should be used pre-emptively, only if move vandalism occurs. --Robdurbar 09:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

What's the argument against using it preemptively. Are there any circumstances in which there could be a non-vandalistic move of that day's featured article? Or are there circumstances in which trying out the move-page feature would be a newbie's introduction to Misplaced Pages? If we agree the answers are "no" and "no" then I think suppressing the move tab on the day's FA should be routine practice, especially after this morning's experience. Newyorkbrad 00:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Especially given that newbies can't move pages. Ral315 (talk) 06:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Preform (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Strong suspicions that this user is banned user MagicKirin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who also used the now banned account Tannim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Same group of articles - Hugo Chavez - Cindy Sheehan, Hezbollah - picking up where the previous account was banned. Same arguments. Same litany of poor edits reverted immediately by numerous editors. Same pattern of being oblivious to the fact that his use of a new sockpuppet is transparent.--Zleitzen 01:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You could request a checkuser check. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I no longer watch the Chávez articles, as they are a POV wasteland and consensual good faith editing doesn't look like a near-term possibility; so I have no sense of whether Preform might be a sockpuppet. Seeing this here, I went over to check Preform's edits on Hugo Chávez, and didn't see a problem with either of them. This edit is completely defensible, and this edit could be adequately sourced in five seconds if someone who disagrees with the source given took the time - the laws passed are well-documented and well known. I don't intend to defend the edits of a possible sockpuppet, but something really needs to be done about the entrenched POV-pushing throughout the Chávez articles. Sandy (Talk) 17:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation and abuse question on 6.5 Grendel

Ok, first the background. In the past week there have been dozens of edits to Assault rifle by anon IPs making unreferenced claims that say the 6.5 Grendel cartridge is the best thing since sliced bread, etc. It was definitely not NPOV, had no sources etc. It was almost to the point of being an advertisement saying "Alexander Arms bullets are better than any other bullet out there". Anyway, I noticed a similar IP had posted on the 6.5 Grendel page. Some of the text there looked fishy, so I did a brief Google search and found the ballistics testing paragraphs were ripped straight off another page. It's possible the entire page is a rip as well, but only slightly paraphrased. A lot of it looks similar.

Anyway, I removed, tagged copyvio, posted on the copyright violations page etc. Great, grand. The talk page has suddenly exploded in its absence with anons and new contributers suddenly claiming I work for Remington (I don't, I'm a student), that I have a history of malicious edits (I've never received a warning), etc. Also no less than 4 people and probably more now have now claimed to be the copyright owner and release their work: but some of them are releasing it into public domain (which I don't think is GFDL compatible) and some only to specific users.

Examples:

*"The malicious charge that SwatJester has made that images and comments regarding terminal ballistics gel testing cross-posted at TheHighRoad by John Hanka, aka Grendelizer at 65Grendel.com, are the property of that site when John is not only the moderator on the 65Grendel.com site, but is in fact paying for its existence, are absurd. " (note: this refers to my tagging as copyvio.)

• "Beyond this, SwatJester has a history of destroying the work of well-intentioned contributors on many sites by constantly reverting them to versions he finds more palatable. Such behavior, if allowed to continue by the Wiki staff, will destroy the desire and ability of knowledgeable and well-intentioned individuals to contribute to the Wiki effort."

• "Is it possible that someone here at Misplaced Pages is on the payroll or has vested stock interest in Remington?" (not so subtly hinting at me).

The talk page had not received any notice in almost 30 days. Suddenly all these posts, with competing and overlapping incompatible copyright releases, most from anon IPs and none of which can be confirmed yet....and then this abuse spewed at me: sounds like someone is organizing off-wiki to orchestrate something on wiki.

And to be honest: I'm F*ing sick of it. I like to think I do a good job on wikipedia. I've been editing here almost a year, something around 8000 good edits on over 4000 pages. It's one thing for a random IP to flame me, or vandalize my user page, that's happened before and it's entertaining. But this is ridiculous.

Will another couple of eyes take a look at this and maybe hearing from an admin that I was justified in removing the copyrighted material will get it through their thick skulls? ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 03:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I should mention one of those editors, User:Solidpoint who was responsible for some of those claims including an edit summary accusing me of vandalism for removing the copyrighted material had this to say on a similar article: emphasis my own.

*"Thinly veiled listing of Pinnacle's bitch list RE: DOD testing

This Wiki page is a disgrace. There is nothing objective or unbiased about anything written here and I say this as a huge DragonSkin fan. If Wiki cannot police itself better than this it is not a credible source of information about anything. This page is not about DragonSkin at all. It is about the unfair way Pinnacle Armor's product was tested and the author is just grinding an axe. It is pathetic beyond description to find this sort of thing in what purports to be an Encyclopedia. I think if Pinnacle were aware of this page THEY would ask for its destruction. No good can come from airing a list of bitches from one side only. This page has zero credibility and will likely injure Pinnacle.

Solidpoint'

I've asked for an apology on his talk page. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 03:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Anyone want to take a look at this? ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 16:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I did... it's absolutely sickening. If they don't get real permissions, this article should be deleted, ASAP. --Elaragirl 17:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not in any way defending either what other editors may have said to Swatjester, or any copyright violations, but there are a number of external links in the article to sources that very clearly meet WP:RS. I have edited the external links section to (hopefully) make this clearly. I also believe the article's subject meets wikipedia's requirements for notability, for what that's worth. John Broughton | Talk 20:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I popped across to the forum they are all linking to - I take it SOLIDPOINT is the same Solidpoint, who makes the disgusting comment of

I will say this. When that asshole SwatJester crawls out of his mom's basement he better not cross my path or he'll be posting from the ER ward for awhile. That graphic represents more than 100 hours of work just on my end and a lot more from Stan and Mike and others. For destroying that kind of effort I'm perfectly happy to rearrange his dental work and significant parts of his skeleton. --Charlesknight 20:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Cute. Indef block Solidpoint (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for threat of bodily harm to an editor in an external forum, anyone? Georgewilliamherbert 21:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree, User:Solidpoint going offwiki to make personal attacks should be treated harshly.--Isotope23 21:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I have placed a provisional 48 hour block on User:Solidpoint. I have asked him to make a full and meaningful retraction of his threat and an unconditional apology to User:Swatjester. If these are not forthcoming during the duration of the block I will extend it to indef. Threats of violence in real life will absolutely not be tolerated. Gwernol 21:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I support Gwernol's position. Threats of violence made on or off-wiki are completely unacceptable. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 21:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this block. We cannot regulate what fellow editors do on other websites, but in keeping with the findings of several sections of my own arbitration case (namely, principles 1, 2 and 4), Misplaced Pages does not tolerate harassment, works to effectively eliminate harassment be it through appropriate administrator actions as necessary, and we unite together in our efforts to defeat harassment making sure no one need be isolated by such incidents (in a nutshell). If no evidence of sincere apology is forthcoming...extend block to indef.--MONGO 21:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Fourthed. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 22:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I find it a bit hypocritical that people are unwilling to say that a user with the same apparent screen name is the same person when it comes to a copyright release, but are quite content to make that leap when blocking someone for purposeful attacks. Certainly, Solidpoint has been incivil, and should probably apologize to keep things functioning smoothly. But I have found, through my own experience, that sometimes forcing an apology does more harm than good. My impression is that Solidpoint isn't very familiar with the way we do things here, and rather than focusing on retribution, we should try and turn someone who clearly has knowledge and interest in a particular field into a valuable Wikipedian. Permanent banning isn't going to do that. Especially when there's such a clear insider/outsider dynamic as there is here, such measures are just more likely to cause anger. --Eyrian 22:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Solidpoint has given an apology here. My inclination is to unblock and keep an eye on the situation. Gwernol 22:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

My concern is whether it has been established that these identitys are the same. Has the user admitted they were? has some independent verification been carried out? Are there consanguinuities in the manner of speaking or references to information that at least give some indication of sameness? If that's the case I am tripping over myself to endorse. If not, some qualms remain. ++Lar: t/c 22:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The fact that after the apology was posted, the original comment was removed from the above mentioned forum? --Charlesknight 22:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Given an apology, an unblock and monitor may be appropriate. Stipulating that identity has now been established? ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The apology itself and the removal of the forum post demonstrate that the Misplaced Pages user and the forum poster are the same person, at least to my satisfaction. I think there is reason to assume good faith, just, here and remove the block. Any further repetition of these threats or similar behavior should be ttreated swiftly, IMHO. Gwernol 00:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow I mised all of this? Yeesh. I think this very much exemplifies the dangers inherent in offwiki groups banding together to push a POV onto their specific articles. I briefly looked through their claims on their forum about me and found so many things, for instance that I had made a diff that I didn't make, that I have never created an article of my own (RSTA (U.S. Army), Commander Mine Squadron SEVEN that I recreated from the face of CSD death,) etc. This is a case of the things that can happen when people who do not know how wikipedia works attempt to band together and push something through through the strength of their numbers. Unfortunately, I don't have any good ideas on how to fix that. I will say that while I appreciate the apology, "Perhaps now he will find the references he so craves" makes it ring rather hollow. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 23:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I was just going to say that I found that passage of concern. Samsara (talk • contribs) 03:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It appears the copyright situation has finally worked itself out, however, I'd appreciate it if a few eyes were kept on the situation regarding the personal attacks. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 19:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

New users

For your blocking pleasure. - 152.91.9.144 04:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• 04:16, 28 November Jimboiswales created new account User:Wikidiot (talk • contribs • logs • block user • block log)
• 04:15, 28 November Jimboiswales created new account Jimboisstupid (talk • contribs • logs • block user • block log)
• 04:15, 28 November Jimboiswales (talk • contribs • logs • block user • block log) (New user account)

Offensive username

• Imakillu100 (talk * contribs * logs * block user * block log)

The header says it all ;) Yuser31415 04:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

While we're sniffing the creation log... - 152.91.9.144

• Bite my balls (talk * contribs * logs * block user * block log)
• Usucku (talk * contribs * logs * block user * block log)

... And User:Stupidshandranicole :) Yuser31415 04:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

All blocked. Usernames this obviously bad can usually go to WP:AIV. --Sam Blanning 12:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for Block of sockpuppets Defender99 and Skinny McGee

User:Defender99 and User:Skinny McGee are the same. User also appears to have created sleeper socks User:Hypotenuse and User:Party Gal. All of the rest are inconclusive. Report: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Skinny_McGee.

Requesting block for sockpuppetry and also for disrupting another check into older socks for same user . User has been removing SSP templates while evidence page was in progress of being made. . Peacekpr 05:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all User:Defender99 was not involved in any violation, the user made only one edit. Second, User:Skinny McGee explains that User:Defender99 is her huband. Third, User:Peacekpr has been harassing User:Skinny McGee by posting countless investigations. User:Peacekpr's second edit was a request for an investigation into Skinny. User:Peacekpr has since then created the following investigations into Skinny: . I highly suspect User:Peacekpr is someone's sockpuppet. Dionyseus 05:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's the history for Defender99 and Skinny McGee and IP avoiding 3RR (by a hair):

• 17:06, 2 November 2006 Skinny McGee (Reverting again to previously agreed upon version)
• 19:18, 1 November 2006 Skinny McGee (Reverting again.)
• 15:00, 1 November 2006 Defender99 (Added Origins Award and link to site)
• 04:01, 1 November 2006 67.140.91.34 (Reverting changes)
• 02:10, 1 November 2006 67.140.91.34 (Whoops - just realized reverted version was incorrect, too. Sorry!)
• 02:00, 1 November 2006 Skinny McGee (Reverting changes ...)

Since you did a check on me already, adding my name to your GuardianZ list, and found me to NOT be a sock , please stop STALKING me. I only posted one investigation into Skinny McGee (1 for socks and 1 for ckuser), which already turned out to be trued. I then realized it had been going on far longer and wanted to recheck, just to be sure to check everyone. I am only trying to be fair. You continually hounded the editors on the opposing side and now you are hounding EVERY post I make, whether it be a report or a simple suggestion about archiving, or to check out all the users. This is my process before I can make a fair assessment of all the sides in a dispute—I need to know who and how many I am dealing with. If you choose to hinder the process, it won't help matters. Firm request for block. Because Skinny McGee has been socking, he should be punished with a ban of his sockpuppets and at least a 3 day block for himself. Same punishment was afforded to GuardianZ per Dionyseus' requests/checks. Let it be the same for Skinny McGee. Fair is fair. Peacekpr 11:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never hidden behind sockpuppets. When I first started editing, I just used my IP address. When I realized that was frowned upon, I created my user name and have been editing under that ever since (except when I occassionally think I'm signed in, but am not - but I've gotten much better at that lately). As Dionyseus mentioned, I have already explained that Defender99 is my husband, and he only made one very non-controversial edit to the article (which Peacekpr chooses to reference here). Oroboros 1/GuardianZ were continually inserting promotional material for Joseph Vargo and were linking to sites created by Joseph Vargo that are defamatory to the band, and to articles in which Joseph Vargo defames the band (Oroboros 1 is a confirmed sockpuppet of GuardianZ and has been banned infinitely - the two of them would actually "talk" to each other and even appear to disagree). I did not want to let that stand, so I felt I had no choice but to revert. I have never tried to hide what I was doing. I was just trying to protect the integrity of the article the only way I knew how to protect it. Also, I find it very suspicious that GuardianZ, who was so vehemently fighting over the article, would just disappear after her block for sockpuppetry and be replaced by Peacekpr who has done nothing but attack me. - Skinny McGee 16:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not an admin, but from the outside looking in, this appears to be a content dispute that has boiled over a bit. I don't see any real evidence of sockpuppetry on the part of Skinny McGee in regards to Defender99 as there is exactly 1 edit by Defender99 who Skinny McGee contends is her husband. There is an active sockpuppet investigation request here and any action should pend on this. I do find it a bit curious though that the editor bringing this up had his/her first edit as an extensive "fact finding". As much as Skinny McGee is a single purpose account for editing Midnight Syndicate, User:Peacekpr seems to be a SPA for investigating editors who contributed to that article. The article is locked right now anyway, so I recommend all parties be WP:COOL wait for the outcome of the sock investigation, and remember... you are fighting over an article on a band that doesn't even meet the WP:MUSIC guidelines.--Isotope23 17:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Angry Bahraini yet again

This time he's reverting edits from User:84.255.150.210. Please block and roll-back this IP too. Zora 09:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, now from User:89.148.40.19. Please block and roll back. Also would be a good idea to semi-protect Nasibi. He dislikes that article for some reason. He would seem to be Shi'a, but I can't see what would offend a Shi'a in the article. Zora 10:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. Sorry for sending you around from one place to the other like this, but I still think given the frequency of the complaints, it had better be taken to WP:AIV then here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I posted a complaint there and it was removed, on the grounds that I hadn't gone through all the prescribed warning steps and that there was no evidence that these were not legit edits. IF you consider the various anonIPs used as separate users, then perhaps this stance by the AIV folks makes sense. When it's clearly one person cycling through many IPs, it doesn't. Thanks much for the blocks and rollbacks. Zora 11:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, that was evidently someone who didn't know the whole story. The guy can be considered warned often enough, because he's been blocked so often before and he knows why. When you report on AIV, perhaps just give a link to this discussion here? I've actually had such situations several times when we had to use AIV for serial block evaders. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Single purpose account?

I came across Principal Schoolswatter (talk · contribs) in AFD. Appears to be nominating school articles alone. Based on his name, can he be banned, or am I being oversensitive? - Mgm| 10:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I would say his contributions are in good faith. He did flag Banyan Elementary School (Rancho Cucamonga, California) as copyvio but without realising there was good text in the history, which is an easy mistake for copyvio-fighters to make. Kimchi.sg 10:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think they're both in good faith and a single purpose account. However, editors are encouraged to merge rather than delete non-notable schools (into a district, or city/town/locality article). I am going to leave them a note. Georgewilliamherbert 19:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

SilvaStorm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've only come across this when updating Portal:Current events/Sidebar, but this user appears to be a load to deal with. Might need admin watching - a quick scan of his contribs suggests WP:OWN violations by leaving articles tagged {{underconstruction}} even after he's no longer editing the page, and there seem to have been a lot of potentially unilateral, undiscussed moves (perhaps against consensus) in his past 150-200 edits.

Only spotted him because I removed a stub unencyclopedic entry from the current events list; I see that that stub is up for deletion and apparently this user has already violated WP:POINT by blanking the AFD notice and adding speedy tags to the deletion debate.

Worth keeping an eye on, as he's also seemed to have resorted to incivility and personal attacks (and his talk page suggests a history of such, too). – Chacor 11:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

He has appeared on my DRADIS several times now.. He's also been making unilateral moves etcetera; He has also created pages, they've been deleted, he recreates them, there deleted, he recreates them under a new name (Season 3, episode 7 (Lost)) thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 11:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Final warning issued. Proto::type 11:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, the unilateral moves from Episode (Lost) to Episode (Lost episode) has created all kinds of inconsistancies as in some cases people reverted back to the original namespace. Nothing like undiscussed moves to throw a wrench in things.--Isotope23 17:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Requesting rollback

If I'm in the wrong place, please redirect me. There is a user who has spent a night replacing ] with ] in around 75 articles. There was no reason for this, and IIRC it violates WP policy. Maybe they misunderstood what disambiguation is, or maybe they think this is a useful thing to do, or maybe it is part of building support for/against a rename the article with the controversial name "Linux", or maybe it is part of a two-step plan to replace the name "GNU/Linux" with "Linux" (first "dab" the link, later "dab" the text). Here's the user's contributions: Special:Contributions/Dylan_Lake. Gronky 12:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's common practice to disambiguate links when they point to a disambiguation. This is nothing to be concerned over, as it was obviously a good faith effort to help out 0 see WP:DISAMBIG (and I currently see no problems with it). If you have a real problem with the changes, feel free to revert them yourself, but it would be helpful to explain why you're reverting back (sorry, but I'm still unclear), and to leave a reason on the user's talk page. I also might like to remind you of WP:AGF, an official Misplaced Pages policy. -Patstuart 12:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I should have made clear: the user is not disambiguating anything. "GNU/Linux" does not point to a disambiguation page, it is a redirect to "Linux". Gronky 13:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

At this moment, it isn't, it's been a dab since the latest revert on 10 November. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh. My apologies for not checking that. Gronky 13:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Gronky, can you please explain what the problem is here? It looks to me like he is changing the link from GNU/Linux which is a disambig page, to the actual article on "Linux (also known as GNU/Linux)" located at Linux. Usually when a link leads to a diambiguation page, we try to diambig the link and direct it straight to the precise article. I don't understand what the problem is. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 12:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The only problem I can see now is that the dab page at GNU/Linux has apparently been rather controversial, forever switching between being a redirect to Linux and being a dab page. As long as it was a redirect, the rules at WP:Redirects#Don't fix links to redirects that aren't broken would apply, but given the instability of the target, I agree it's highly preferable to have all links go directly to the stable real article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Fut.Perf., that is that policy I was thinking of. And thanks to all three for the quick responses. However, the controversy you've seen is not the one I was talking about (and is quite small and irrelevant). There is a large debate ongoing over whether GNU/Linux should be a redirect to Linux, or should it be that Linux is a redirect to GNU/Linux, or should they be two seperate articles. For this reason, that users' actions fit the above policy due to the effects on possible future articles. Should I now go to those 75 articles and express my preference by doing the same replace? Surely the policy exists exactly to prevent silly situations like that. The current note of encouragement on his/her userpage doesn't seem to lead to a productive or even neutral outcome. Gronky 13:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to do anything. As long as the articles which were edited are actually meant to link to an article that describe the operating system, the links are fine now. Even if it should later be decided that the Linux page should be moved, to GNU/Linux or wherever else, all will still be fine. As long as Linux itself doesn't become a dab page... Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

<after ec>I still can't see any reason to do a mass revert of those changes. With regard to Misplaced Pages:Redirect, it's a guideline, not a policy. And it doesn't say that once those changes have been made, they should be mass reverted. I think it would be better to talk to the editor who made the changes and try to resolve the issues that Fut mentioned above. Edit warring over it is not the way to go. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 13:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will talk with the user and/or re-evaluate now that I see I was mistaken about GNU/Linux currently being a redirect instead of a dab. Thank you each for your comments and advice. Gronky 13:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Microsoft Game Studios and User:Alex Stanek 9999

Hola admins et al,

there seems to be some sony-spam on Microsoft Game Studios. He (User:Alex Stanek 9999) seems to have been warned before (I looked at his talk page). PER9000 13:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Page blankings and vandalism have been reverted and user warned. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism to Osmosis

Several new users (or one user creating sockpuppets) are vandalizing Osmosis. Could we please get it semi-protected? Thanks! (Sorry if I'm in the wrong place, this is my first protection request) Nwwaew(My talk page) 14:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Raasnoerd

This user posts this massage on my talk page. I don't know who he is and have never seen him before. After I removed his accusations of vandalism from my talk page, he proceed to restore them. Now I see he desrupts user and user talk pages on a seemingly random basis. Please roll back his contributions. --Ghirla 14:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Issued a 24 hour block (someone already blatantvandal'd him, he passed it). Some of his early edits look reasonable, up until today with Clock Looking-At and the vandalism. If he keeps it up, just report him to WP:AIV. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 14:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Multiple IP vandalism to Electricity

Could we please get Electricity semi-protected? Several IP addresses are vandalizing it. Nwwaew(My talk page) 15:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Requests like this go to WP:RFPP. Kimchi.sg 15:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

All the vandalism came from 168.184.*.*. Kimchi.sg 15:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I blocked 168.184.0.0/16 for 3 hours - this is a school IP range belonging to Orange County Public Schools. Kimchi.sg 16:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I just rolled back edits by user:70.119.201.37. Michael Hardy 20:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Still no cause for alarm; IP seems to have stopped after test1 was given. Kimchi.sg 21:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u, abusive sockpuppet

As established by checkuser, Cute 1 4 u (talk · contribs) has just been caught creating yet another sockpuppet (Jibbs fan (talk · contribs)) to get around the ban placed on the account. Apart from blatantly violating the ban, this new account was once again involved in copyright violations and in personal threats. I have rolled back all identifiable contributions that I could find as per WP:DENY. However, given that this is approximately the 11th sockpuppet created for this long-term abuser, it is clear that Cute 1 4 u will create a new account before the end of the week and resume the abusive behaviour. What additional steps can we take to enforce the ban on this user? The user edits from a series of dynamic IPs in the Chicago area which makes an IP block unreasonable. However, I am sick to death of dealing with this long-term vandal and it is taking us weeks, not days, to track down each new account. --Yamla 15:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you just need to watch Chris Brown (singer) as that's her favorite artist or something. I'm pretty sure there have been edits from all of them to that page.—Řÿūłóñģ (竜龍) 18:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what wikipedia's policy is on filing complaints with ISPs, but it would be something to consider in the case of longterm vandals.--Crossmr 18:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know it's ok in cases like this. ---J.S (t|c) 19:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

How do we go about getting this done? --Yamla 19:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Re reinstating edits made by banned users

If a suspected sockpuppet of a banned user makes an edit I consider valid, am I or am I not permitted to reinstate it after it has been reverted under the unproven pretext that it is a banned user editing? User:Khoikhoi threatened to block me for doing so despite the fact that the blocking policy does not provide for that...--Euthymios 16:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• I have no idea if User:Khoikhoi is on solid ground with regards to blocking you (I'm not an admin), but it appears the version you are reverting to does not have broad consensus per the compromise agreement in Archive 8 Section 2 of the Talk:Transnistria page. There is a lengthy discussion there where a consensus was reached so you probably should not be reverting this anyway, regardless of where the original edit came from.--Isotope23 17:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The following is MY OPINION. You are permitted to reintroduce edits from a confirmed sockpuppet of a banned user. However, you should not do so using 'revert', you should introduce it as new text. Note that you will be taking full responsibility for the content, so any NPOV or uncited claims, for example, will be your responsibility to fix prior to inserting. The content will be considered to be contributed by you and you may be warned or blocked if it is inappropriate or if it is introduced in opposition to established consensus. It is important to note that you may not reinstate text that a banned user contributed if the banned user has asked you to do so. This would be a violation of WP:SOCK. For the record, any time I revert a banned user's contributions, I welcome someone else to reinstate the changes provided they accept full responsibility for them. Note that nothing I've said here is meant to replace WP:BAN#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits, this is just my reading of the policy and my opinion on how things should work. --Yamla 17:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with your opinion. It is permissible if someone else puts the information in and is credited with it. But just reverting is not. pschemp | talk 17:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yamla's opinion has some good precedents. David Gerard once explained on WikiEN-L that he had done the exact same thing, & the general response there was one of approval. I don't know if Yamla is aware of this prior case, but if he isn't then that would only confirm that it is a reasonable solution. -- llywrch 00:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That's essentially what Euthymios did - he reverted to Bonaparte's version. Khoikhoi 17:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hm, this leaves me puzzled. What is the difference between "putting information back in" and "reverting"? How do you tell the one from the other? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The difference is who is credited in the edit history. pschemp | talk 17:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There's no real difference, of course. But a reversion using the admin roll-back tool is pushing for a wheel war. Reintroducing the change and using an edit summary like "rvv" or the like would similarly be what I mean by a revert. The trick is that an editor must treat it as original content that they are introducing and the edit summary would reflect that. For example, when reintroducing a spelling change, the edit summary should probably read along the lines of "(m) spelling - 'happyness' to 'happiness'". The key point is that the change is treated as new rather than as a roll back to a version introduced by the banned user. --Yamla 17:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The other key point is that from a GFDL standpoint, it does matter who made it. pschemp | talk 17:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yamla's advice is ood sense. I'd also make a comment on Talk to confirm that this is what has been done. As long as the edit is good (which seems not to be in dispute) there should be no problem, and if there is I'm sure it can be fixed by rational discussion well before the publication deadline. There being none. Guy (Help!) 18:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

That edit was 1) not vandalism, 2) accurate and NPOV, and 3) there is no proof that it was made by Bonaparte or any banned user. If a banned user corrects a typo and he is reverted in mass rollback, am I not allowed to revert back? Frankly, I see no difference. I would agree if it were a talkpage post or vandalism, however we're talking about an article edit which would be totally legitimate had it been made by a regular user (which there is no proof that that anon was not). Finally, is this blockable and if so how? Don't just say "disruption" - explain how it is "disruption". Many admins block by citing "disruption" but forget that the blocking policy specifies that such blocks are nearly always controversial.--Euthymios 17:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• This isn't reverting a typo though, this is reverting to a version of the articlecreated by an Anon (with a suspiciously good understanding of Misplaced Pages policy) that is against the Misplaced Pages:Consensus on the talk page. I would say this would not be a legitimate edit no matter who made it.--Isotope23 17:34, 28 November 2006 (
• In general, when re-adding content of a banned user care must be taken to follow copyright law. FloNight 20:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Why the emphasis on copyright law in this context? Surely, edits by even a banned user are GFDL licensed? After all, we may not catch them all. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The Return of Sturm (talk · contribs) moving pages from Natalinasmpf (talk · contribs)

User has admitted to not being Natalinasmpf (talk · contribs) . Could an admin look into this and undo the page moves if appropriate. Thanks. --BostonMA 17:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Pages have been restored and user blocked, thanks to Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh (talk · contribs) --BostonMA 17:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Block User:125.212.74.174

For repeated vandalism of List of Marvel Comics films. --Jamdav86 18:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• I think this is just a case of an anon not understanding WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NOT a crystalball rather than outright malicious vandalism. I've tried explaining on the talk page for the IP.--Isotope23 18:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't look severe enough to warrant a block, a note about making sure they cite sources is enough. Shadow1 (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Chatting uncontrolled

Looks like we've got a group of teenage girls using their talk pages as a chat site, including at least Baby-girl015 (talk · contribs), Beccaboo 06 (talk · contribs), Natigurl 06 (talk · contribs), Cutie Pie06 (talk · contribs). They have been leaving invitations to chat on various User Pages, User Talk pages, and Article Talk pages, frequently blanking the previous content in the process. I've had no luck in trying to communicate with any of them, except to get responses asking if I want to chat. Fan-1967 18:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

So, do you want to chat? Well, an indefinite block of a user with no useful contributions is unlikely to be controversial. Not that I'm suggesting this as a first response, but if they're unresponsive... Friday (talk) 18:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks more like trolls than teenage girls to me.--Crossmr 18:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Trolls, almost certainly. I wonder if this isn't just a bunch of sockpuppets run by a schizophrenic puppetmaster? Not sure how to check. Doc Tropics 18:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I am tracking their moves to see if administrator intervention needs to be enforced. I would suggest reporting them to WP:AIV if they get out of control, or contact Jimbo and have them ALL banned at once. --D.F. "Jun Kazama Master" Williams 18:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Beccaboo 06 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), seems to have created all the following:

1. Babyphat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2. Big daddy thick (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
3. Sexy 06 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
4. Big gay bubba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
5. ! JAY ! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
6. Pretty Ricky1820 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
7. Sexy Virgo Baby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
8. Sexy Jamacian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
9. BabyBlueStar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
10. Sexy Chocolate 09 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
11. Sexy Scorpio10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There may be more. Guy (Help!) 19:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was just reporting another quadruple on village pump / policy:

1. Make mi fall 4 u (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),
2. Wfg100 (talk · contribs),
3. Twdtriplethreat (talk · contribs),
4. Ghsovertime22 (talk · contribs)

Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• This type of activity is a blatant abuse of project pages; it practically borders on stealing bandwidth. I would strongly suggest that steps be taken to shut them down immediately. Doc Tropics 19:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• This is one case where I think a permant block is warrented on the first offense. Users who have made no actual article space edits and merely are engaging in social networking don't need to continue editing here.--Isotope23 21:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Meh. They're just kids. Find the IP, notify the school. Guy (Help!) 23:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Here's the latest response . Not promising. Fan-1967 15:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• They are just kids... which means they will keep this up unless they are blocked. Heck, at that age I would have probably done the same thing. JzG is right though, Finding the IP and notifying the school is probably the best bet as indef blocks will just mean they create new users and continue it... at least that is what I would have done at that age.--Isotope23 15:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow...I mean, look at girls socializing on MySpace, Facebook, LiveJournal and whatnot. I WAS going to put a final warning message, but it looks like you've K.O.'ed them before I did. I hope they've learned their lesson...--D.F. "Jun Kazama Master" Williams 15:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

We had this problem a while back with some users connected to Cute 1 4 u (no surprise that the names are all similar and sound like they belong to African-American teenage girls). If anything, we should delete their userspaces other than the user talk that they have been warned at, and blocked for not contributing to the encyclopedia at all.—Řÿūłóñģ (竜龍) 16:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Ccc-media requested he be blocked

Ccc-media has requested that I block him on my talkpage here. Since I can't (non-admin and all), I'm passing it on to you. I thought he was blocked previously, but I guess not. Veinor (ヴエノル) 18:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for username. Kimchi.sg 18:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

POV-pushing by User:MikeJason on Aaron Klein

At the suggestion of User:Robocracy the Aaron Klein page was semi-protected because of a series of POV-pushing anons. Now a logged-in editor, User:MikeJason has begun re-making some of the same changes. He also removed the {cleanup-rewrite} banner and the {sprotect} banner without discussion on the Talk page. I have consulted User:Athaenara and User:Tariqabjotu for their assistance. Their contributions are in the edit history. There was a pause, but after 17 days MikeJason is back doing his thing again. Since he is making changes against consensus after clear warnings, I'm asking for administrative help. EdJohnston 18:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This is just me, but perhaps a Check User request is in line, to back up a block. -Patstuart 03:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

MikeJason has only edited this one page. Blocking him would not hurt the future improvement of Misplaced Pages. And the page remains under semi-protection. An alternative would be full protection for the page, but I don't know how reluctant people are to do that. EdJohnston 05:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Approximately 295 redirects "broken" by user

While the guidelines on redirects specify that in order for template tags to work correctly, they should be "one space after and on the same line as #REDIRECT," User:ShakespeareFan00 has gone through and changed approximately 295 redirects in {{R_with_possibilities}} so that the template tag is on a different line. Given the timestamps on the changes, my guess is they are being performed via a mass change tool like AWB. I left a message on the user's talk page about the proper syntax for redirects, however would it be possible for an admin to rollback the changes so all these broken redirects do not have be fixed by hand? --Kralizec! (talk) 20:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, they have to be on the same line. Currently, they work, but that's undefined behavior subject to change in MediaWiki, so that isn't really an excuse. Working on it. Titoxd 20:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. Titoxd 20:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Reference desk problem and block

As some may remember, I have been working recently on the problem of the Misplaced Pages:Reference desk, which as for some time been misused by a few users as a place for general discussion rather than its intended purpose. My first approach was to discuss the use of the reference desk, and appropriate ways of regulating it; these discussions (with some users) were extensive, and resulted in me writing out a personal plan for removing highly inappropriate comments and discussion from the reference desk: User:SCZenz/Reference desk removals. Applying this procedure worked fine until last night, when I removed an entirely off-topic joke discussion. I informed DirkvdM (talk • contribs • count) that I had done this, and he took exception. I spent a long period of time explaning why my actions follow from the spirit of Misplaced Pages policy and the purpose of the reference desk (see User talk:DirkvdM#Reference desk removal), but he repeatedly reverted my edits even after I made it clear that (in my best judgement) his reversions were disruptive. I therefore warned him that he would be blocked if he continued to disrupt the ref desk. He subsequently restored the comments, so I blocked him for 12 hours to prevent further disruption.

Thus I have failed in my original plan to improve the reference desk through discussion; several other admins have tried before me, and run out of patience rather faster than I did. In my best judgement, drawing a line in the sand and saying "some comments can be, and will be, removed to keep the page on topic" was the only remaining approach. When DirkvdM became stubborn on this point, I couldn't see a better option than to block for disruption. However, I have blocked a generally good contributor for restoring that he believes was legitimate content, and my actions should be reviewed. I would appreciate any comments. Thanks, SCZenz 21:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC) (SCZenz (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves))

I think the idea of removing comments by another editor is generally a bad thing, but in the case of the reference desk I would support your actions as it is very easy to get sidetracked with irrelevant things. In order to keep the place in order and useful, the desk must be kept on the point. Each question and topic on the desk should stay within its boundaries else people will not think the desk is actually any use.

In this case, removing DirkvdM's irrelevant and off-topic comment was appropriate and his trying to force it back on, regardless of the purpose of the page was disruptive. It is a case of using your common sense to prevent the page losing focus. -Localzuk 21:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I also concur with the removal and the block. SCZenz made an extraordinary effort to communicate with the user and explain exactly why it wasn't appropriate for the reference desk. As the first place many new Wikipedians go, it is important for it to maintain focus. Dirk claims that we are taking the fun out of Misplaced Pages, but there is no way irrelevent penis jokes on the reference desk make the encyclopedia better and he does not have an inalienble right to post them as his comments seem to indicate. Thank you SCZenz for tackling this tough area with patience and wisdom. pschemp | talk 21:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

LCs retorts

Surprise surprise! 8-( But Dirk saw it as relevant as he (and I) found ithe Q unclear.--Light current 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh and BTW, how are the RDs supposed to make WP better? Anyone know?--Light current 01:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Things that should be removed would include death threats and racial slurs. Bad jokes, while they perhaps shouldn't be made in the first place, certainly do not rise to the level of something to be removed, and blocking a user over such an issue is absurd. StuRat 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree! 8-)--Light current 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SCZ has written, and is operating by, his own guidelines on which he has failed to obtain consensus for acceptance. He is acting autocratically and is guilty of harrassment. SCZ makes up the rules as he goes along. Is that how WP works?--Light current 00:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

He is using common sense and a interpretation of our existing policies in order to keep an important area of the encyclopedia on task and focussed. Also, the user was blocked for edit warring with an admin - ok, this block should have been done by a seperate admin and the issue discussed in more detail elsewhere first, but the block did what it was supposed to do - stopped the edit war.

Remember, wikipedia is not a discussion forum - jokes do not come within the purpose of the site. The reference desk is one of the first points of contact for many users of this site and as such should be kept focussed - if it is not, then the site may lose some credibility due to what is in essence silly banter.

I think this is an issue that needs further discussion, maybe on the talk page of SCZenz's proposed guideline page?-Localzuk 00:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hang on! Thats not a proposed Guideline! Its not been presented as such. Its been presenteted as SCZs Law!. I proposed guidelines weeks ago! SCZ said my guidelines were uneccessary and common sense would do!. So why has he suddenly changed his mind?--Light current 00:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What happened is that I wrote out my common-sense conclusions for the benefit of people who wanted to know what I was doing and why. My page is nothing but an explanation of how existing Misplaced Pages policy (plus a bit of common sense) already covers appropriate use of the reference desk, and what to do about inappropriate use. -- SCZenz 01:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As I ve said so many times (but you were obviously not listening) Your common sense is NOT necessarily the same as other peoples. Get it yet? So you need to get consensus to ensure that a common sense of common sense is achielved!. Understand it yet?--Light current 01:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Mind WP:CIVIL, theres no reason to shout. semper fi — Moe 00:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Samir_(The_Scope)

Guys, it's okay to have fun on the reference desk, as it's okay (and recommended!) to have fun elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, but please keep the conversations close to the topic at hand. A lot of users turn to the reference desk for answers to legitimate questions; it undermines the role of the desk somewhat if they end up with an irrelevant commentary in an attempt to be funny. I wholeheartedly support the intent of SCZenz's actions -- Samir धर्म 03:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I do feel bad that DirkvdM was blocked, though. He helped me immensely on the reference desk a couple of months ago, and I've noticed that he's given some exceptional RD answers to other questions -- Samir धर्म 04:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel bad about it too. -- SCZenz 04:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the next time this comes up I might be tempted to file an arbitration request to settle this damn issue once and for all. Do you imagine a real reference library would staff its front desk with children (or child-minded adults) making potty jokes? Thatcher131 04:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not a valid comparison. If Misplaced Pages was paying us, we might be willing to put up with a humorless and autocratic environment, but they are not. StuRat 04:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Pay peanuts... Actually I think the RDs get a damn good deal from the RD editors. THe only payment we get is a few jokes (not many of them now)--Light current 15:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But that's the problem. What we see as a plea for simple decency you see as humorless and autocratic. Do you see a way to address this without handing it off to arbcom? Thatcher131 04:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the solution is to bring such issues up at the Ref Desk talk page, discuss them there, then come up with a consensus for a solution. This is the method which was working, with a few bumps here and there. But, since SCZenz didn't like how we were handling things, they chose to decide, without consensus, both what is appropriate and when an inappropriate comment rises to the level of requiring removal. I don't consider having any one person deciding such things to be appropriate, whether they are an Admin or not. StuRat 05:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. What do you mean by simple decency? Whose standards would you be using? Yours, mine or someone eleses?--Light current 17:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this whole consensus discussion is a red herring. I'm not in favour of removing content from the RD, but IMO it's come to this because people have been so stubborn about defending indefensible contributions. IT'S A WIKI. Every single page belongs to the WikiMedia Foundation, and we release every single character we type to the GFDL. This means articles, talk pages, userpages, and the RD. Users generally have dominion over our userpages out of courtesy, not because we own them. But anyone can edit them. The editing or removal of on-topic talk page contributions is frowned upon because it defeats the purpose of the article talk page, which is to achieve consensus on the content of the article. The RD is not a talk page. Our every contribution is not sacrosanct. We are working towards solutions to individual problems posed as questions by individual posters, and as such, off-topic contributions are subject to removal. They haven't been up to now, but now they are. It doesn't need a change in policy, and it doesn't need consensus. It's as simple as that. IT'S A WIKI. Anchoress 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Im very sorry to have to say this, and its not an attack, but I find Anchoresss comment totally neutral and unhelpful in every way! It does not advance the discussion 8-( Really sorry! No offence! 8-( --Light current 00:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that it is a talk page. Let's look at some of the differences and decide where the Ref Desk falls:

ARTICLE RULES
===================================================
Don't sign posts.
Make any changes you think improves the article.
Rigid format rules (ie, for "References" section).
Length is limited by deleting redundant info.

TALK PAGE
==================================================
Sign all posts.
Only add to the talk page, except for archiving 
 and removing abusive language.
Lax format rules.
Length is limited by archiving.

StuRat 09:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I tend to disagree with arbitration for this; I think this can be handled at the admin level, which is what I've been trying to do. Unless other admins have concerns about my approach, I'm perfectly happy willing to continue removing inappropriate comments and (if necessary, and after due warning) blocking those who restore them. I don't think what I'm doing needs to be endorsed by ArbCom to be valid—but if other admins think having a statement from authority is preferable to my current approach, then I'll go along with that. -- SCZenz 04:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I completely support what you are doing, without arbcom endorsement. I might suggest an intermediate step of banning a problem user from the reference desk for a period of time, under threat of block, so they can edit elsewhere for a while. But if bans are the only way to get the point across that this is the community consensus (or at least admin consensus) then so be it. Thatcher131 04:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Admins deciding unilaterally to block people is not community consensus, and should only be used for severe abuse of the Ref Desk, not for telling a bad joke. StuRat 05:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The block was for the repeated and disruptive restoration of the irrelevant discussion, despite a clear warning. There was no consequence for making the joke except removal with a polite note—as indeed there should not be. -- SCZenz 05:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That was a direct consequence of removing the comment, as no block would have occurred if you hadn't started the revert war then escalated to a block when you were unable to convince the user of your POV. StuRat 05:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SCzenz 's actions were not unilateral as so far they have been supported by every admin who has commented on the page. Obviously then, there are people who agree with him and he isn't acting in a vacuum. I don't think arbcom is needed here either. Nor does it have to be an admin who removes inappropriate comments. "You're taking the fun out of Misplaced Pages" is an immature argument for leaving irrelevant penis jokes on some of our most public pages. pschemp | talk 05:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's unilateral in that it was decided before asking for the opinions of others. And, frankly, I bet Admins would support one another against the user community except for extremely blatant and obvious abuses. This isn't exactly surprising, as the question boils down to giving Admins more power and Users less power. As for anybody being able to remove a comment, that would allow the original user to restore the comment if they disagreed. However, when an admin removes your comment and you put it back, you get blocked, this is the issue. Your comment that SCZenz's actions are "supported by every admin who has commented on the page" also contains the hidden assumption that only the opinions of Admins matter, and all comments from the general user community (including regular Ref Desk contributors) can be ignored. StuRat 05:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, his explanation page has been there a while and other people have looked at it and agreed with it. You didn't know that, but it was discussed before action was taken. Therefore the actions was not unilateral. pschemp | talk 07:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The proper place for the discussion was the Ref Desk talk page, where it was discussed, and I don't believe there was any consensus reached that SCZenz should start deleting any comments he didn't like. And, in any case, each individual deletion is still unilateral, unless that specific deletion has been agreed to based on a consensus. For example, we might well all agree that death threats should be removed, but an Admin removing a statement that "bin Laden may be killed soon" would still be unilateral, because we have not agreed that this was a violation of the "no death threats" policy. StuRat 09:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

All opinions are important, but I think we especially value those from people who contribute to the Ref Desk regularly. After all, you guys are the ones actually doing the work of answering the questions. But don't you think some of the less-than-relevant commentary could be toned down a bit, StuRat? It's one of the things that personally turns me off the reference desk also. I see a lot of medical questions that I could answer, but they often devolve into joke-cracking threads that I feel somewhat silly adding to. -- Samir धर्म 07:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do think that irrelevant silliness should be limited. However, this is not the same as saying we should start censoring the contributions of others, and most definitely not the same as saying we should start blocking regular contributors. This type of overreaction is more of a problem than the irrelevant silliness ever was. StuRat 08:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What you're saying is, if a user adds content to the reference desk that's bad for Misplaced Pages, I have no right to take any action? -- SCZenz 08:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Not unless it's really horrendous, and it wasn't, in this case. Put it this way, which is better, to have that joke removed and Dirk banned, or to leave both alone ? StuRat 09:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering just this one incident, it would be better to leave the joke. However, your argument will apply every single time the reference desk is used inappropriately. In the big picture, it's better to draw a line somewhere and insist that the reference desk not be misused. Dirk's decision to disrupt the reference desk to make a point about me being a despot was his own... and the consequences were what I warned they would be. -- SCZenz 09:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"It takes two to tango". That is, it was your decision to remove the comment, and yours to block him for restoring the rather innocuous comment. These actions seemed to be more about your pride than improving Misplaced Pages. StuRat 09:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Gandalf61 comment

My I add a comment, as a non-admin but long standing Wikipedian and regular RD contributor ? SCZenz is acting on his honest belief that the RDs need to be regulated and cleaned up. He has put some thought into this and has written up the standards to which he thinks RD questions and answers should conform. He has started to enforce these standards by deleting responses, and sometimes whole threads. Unfortunately, he does not have time to patrol the RDs regularly, so his deletions have a sporadic and ad-hoc quality. His actions are also encouraging victimisation of certain RD contributors by others - see recent discussions on the RD talk page. If there is concensus that SCZenz is doing the right thing, then there should be no need for him to patrol the RDs on his own. Please help him set up a process to regulate the RDs properly by applying an agreed set of rules regularly, consistently and fairly. The current vigilante situation is very unsatisfactory. Gandalf61 10:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

After edit conflict:

Samir, note that if the deletion of inappropriate stuff becomes policy any medical questions would be removed, so any answer you gave would also be removed. Be carefull when judging something you haven't felt the full brunt of. For this reason who should decide ref desk policy should be determined by how active they are at the ref desk, not by whether they are an admin. DirkvdM 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, the block is a minor issue (actually, I now notice the block has already ended). What's at stake here is the nature of the ref desk, and any discussions about that should take place at the talk page there. About SCZenz's behaviour, may an admin use his powers (in casu blocking me) in a discussion he is one of the original parties in? I thought that was not allowed. On my talk page I've split the issue in four subtopics: what should be allowed on the ref desk, whether that applies to me and LightCurrent, how should any misbehaviour (when that is defined) be dealt with and if SCZenz is allowed to decide that on his own (ignoring the fact that there is still a hefty discussion going on about this at the talk page).

Oh, and since that term was again used here, it was not a penis joke. It was an amusing misunderstanding followed by clarifying info. A joke is something you come up with and I didn't come up with it, it was something amusing that happened to me. But like I explained on my talk page, I wonder if SCZenz has a hidden agenda. He says he wants to remove off topic remarks. But he doesn't do that (consistently). In stead he seems to just remove stuff that doesnt' please him personally, in casu a subject that has to do with a reproductive organ. This is selective zero tolerance. Very dangerous. Rules should be applied systematically, not at someone's whim. And for that there should be rules in the first place. Let's first establish rules for the nature of the ref desk and how to deal with them. I'm rather tempted to start removing all off-topic remarks at the ref desk, to show how disruptive non-selective zero tolerance would be. But I won't be so childish (yet). :)

Btw, SCZenz, do you report all your deletions to all the people in the sub-thread? (And is that at all do-able?) If so, I'm surprised this is the first time you've deleted anything by me, considering I make loads of side-remarks and you claim to have been doing this for a long time already. (So you must have been doing it very selectively then.) DirkvdM 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I just checked, and you don't always warn people that you removed their contributions. As would indeed be impossible, even with a bot. And that is rather a major issue here. DirkvdM 11:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding complaints that I'm selective... I'm one person doing my best. We're all volunteers here; articles with no references get improved when someone have time, hoax pages get deleted when people notice them, admins are promoted when bureaucrats get around to it. Doing the right thing is still the right thing, even if it can't be done consistently. I have been removing primarily the most egregious examples of off-topic remarks, not indeed in the hope of getting them all, but rather in the hope of illustrating by example what kinds of discussion is definitely outside the purpose of the reference desk. In the long term, I have no intention of being the official reference desk "censor." I'm trying to draw a line in the sand, in order to help bring things back under control. The reference desk is off course, and helping it come back is a matter of applying existing policies, not arguing about new ones. And the reason other people aren't joining me in doing this is, frankly, that I can handle it myself and they have other things to do.

Regarding my "hidden agenda"... Yes, the fact that it was a juvenile penis joke is an aggrivating factor in my view. Talk about all the sex organs you like if it answers a question, but if new users think they're going to randomly have crude jokes thrown at them when they ask something not related to sex, it will intimidate them and keep them from using the reference desk. That's not okay, and Misplaced Pages not being censored doesn't mean I have to pretend it is. We don't censor content... but we're not talking about content here, now are we? We're talking about a pointless joke.

Ok, that's it for me commenting in this section, unless something else goes wrong. A number of other administrators have reviewed my actions (more than have commented, almost certainly) and I have yet to receive any word from them that I'm taking the wrong approach... so for now, I'll keep at it. You can make pretty speeches here some more if you want, or ask for more general and organized feedback at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment... but as that page says, it's not a step to take lightly. -- SCZenz 17:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Zoes input

As an admin who frequently posts on the Reference Desk, I think the deletions and the block were completely out of line. SCZenz does not own the RD, and it is not his/her responsbility to police it. The Reference Desk is, indeed, a fun place, where there are a lot of jokes, but it is also a serious place where lots of questions get answered. Dirk's comment was hardly over the line, and, in fact, was probably perfectly reasonable. I strongly oppose SCZenz's actions, and would suggest taking it to the RD's Talk pages before repeating them. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This surprises me. However, without administrative consensus, I will not continue as I have been. I've tried to clarify my actions and the reasons for them on your talk page. -- SCZenz 18:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk#The tone of the Reference Desk. SCZenz and I have had a discussion on our Talk pages, and we are looking for further consensus. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

SCZenz, that you would be selective was a bit too specific, but the point I was making is that unless this is done consistently there is the risk of unfair selectiveness. To avoid this, it would have to be done by a larger group of people. And to avoid people getting too upset about it, it would have to be done by consensus and we're a long way from that. So far you haven't done too much deleting (you're nowhere near deleting all the of-topic remarks), and you've already got LightCurrent, StuRat and me, three of the most active people on the ref desk, on your neck. Step it up and the ref desk will become one big edit war zone. Don't step it up and you're being selective. The deletion at hand here was one that was much less off-topic than a whole lot of other stuff, so why did you delete this specific one? If you keep this up I will be tempted to start a revolt by applying your rules (your rules!) consistently.

You talk about getting the ref desk back on course, but we've both started working on it just over a year ago, and it was the same then as it is now, which is part of the reason I liked it so much.

And for the last time, it wasn't a juvenile penis joke. It wasn't a joke. And the other half was informative. But you have now confessed that that was the (extra) reason for deleting it. And that is what I mean by 'selective'.

As for the opinion of admins, like I said, it's the opinion of people active at the ref desk that counts, irrespective of whether they're admins. People need to know what they are talking about. DirkvdM 19:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The only people here who know about the ref desk are LightCurrent, StuRat, Anchoress, me, and to a lesser extent Gandalf 61, Zoe and you. And between the seven of us, there is not quite a consensus. Actually, most agree with me. DirkvdM 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? Are you saying that people who don't edit the ref desk aren't fit to comment? You are bascially saying Samir and others don't know what they are talking about. If you are going to wield such accusations you may want to do so in the open. Personally I agree totally with SCZenz and just because you Stu and LightCurrent think irrelevent penis jokes are an appropriate thing does not make you correct. pschemp | talk 19:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You obviously haven't been paying attention. We all agree that certain Ref Desk content may be inappropriate. What we disagree with is that an individual Admin has the right to decide unilaterally which content that is, remove it, and block any user who happens to disagree. And yes, we do feel that people who actually contribute to a project should have more say on the rules for how that project is managed than those who never, or only rarely, contribute. This is because it's very easy to come up with strict rules for others, so long as those rules never apply to you. And, if you never contribute to the Ref Desk, then those rules don't apply to you. StuRat 21:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Just like to say, in the spirit of standing up and being counted, that I don't have any problems with penis jokes (relevant or otherwise) on the RDs either. And also to point out the SCZenz's proposed criteria for deletion are far wider than just jokes - his criteria for deletion include "comments that are off-topic, opinion, or argumentative". Gandalf61 21:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope it doesn't turn into that sort of pissing contest. I regularly work the reference desk, and I happen to agree with the practice of trimming out the really off-topic potty humour. You're welcome to be funny (within reason) if you're also being helpful. Otherwise, do try to remember that the Ref Desk is one place where a lot of new people may get their first exposure to Misplaced Pages, and that filling it with in-jokes and off-colour, off-topic humour is not exactly putting our best foot (or best face) forward.

On a related note, I think it's a really bad idea to edit war just to ensure that a stupid joke stays on the page. How, and who, does that help? What's the point of making that effort, exactly? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If nobody does anything to stop this sort of unilateral action by individual Admins, then they will continue with this obnoxious behavior. StuRat 21:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

How about if I say I agree with the action? It's no longer 'unilateral' – and how I hate to see that word dragged out every time someone makes a decision – now. Where does the edit warring over Dirk's foreskin (in answer to a fashion question, for goodness' sake!) fit in on your scale of 'obnoxious' behaviour? How does having that comment on the page make the Reference Desk more useful to anyone? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's still unilateral in that he didn't ask anyone BEFORE deleting the comment and blocking the user. The most obnoxious part is the block, over what was a very minor issue, if even an issue at all. StuRat 22:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

He did ask someone BEFORE he deleted it. You just didn't know about it. So no, it wasn't unilateral. pschemp | talk 23:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Really ? Who did he ask about the specific item before he deleted it ? Can you provide a link ? StuRat 06:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Not every conversation about this has taken place on Misplaced Pages Stu. The is no link. 07:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Then there is no proof that any such conversation ever existed, is there ? Please sign your posts. StuRat 07:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I take strong exception to the suggestion that only those with substantial RD experience can comment on its purpose and direction. But to assuage that criticism, I'll weigh in. I have previously been a substantial contributor at the Science RD, not so much anymore. Besides all the in-jokes about bay-gulls and such, I have found myself turned off by the rather chauvinist tone, whose most extreme form was seen in the thread (previously discussed here) about how a man could force his girlfriend into a sex act she was not comfortable with. I would estimate that at least a third of the "medical" questions there concern male genitals. Let me be clear that I don't propose censoring the RD. I do propose that all RD contributors consider that people from a wide variety of backgrounds see it, and that they address topics with appropriate maturity. --Ginkgo100 23:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's say this applied to you. We will say a new position is created, called Admin_Judge. They don't do anything but criticize the actions of Admins, delete and undo what Admins do, and threaten and/or block Admins. They make up their own rules for how Admins must behave, the Admins themselves no longer have any say. If they "discuss" things with Admins, it's only telling the Admins how it's going to be, they don't actually listen to anything an Admin says, no matter how thoroughly the actions of the Admin_Judges are shown to be bad for Misplaced Pages and a violation of policy. Is this something you would find pleasant ? Would you remain willing to work as an Admin ? StuRat 06:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey thats a damn good idea Stu: an Admin behaviour review committee made up from non Admins only! Why not put it on the PumP?--Light current 06:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

As for chauvinistic questions, we now have two feminists as Ref Desk regulars, one sexually liberal and one conservative, so that should provide balance there. I would suspect that most Ref Desk readers are young males, however, as surfing the web in general is mostly a young male thing. So, we would expect to get lots of questions relevant to young males, who would be uncomfortable asking them in an environment that wasn't anonymous. I think it's a good thing to be able to answer questions like "Is it unhealthy if a male doesn't ejaculate regularly". Note that this question might have been asked by a girl, who is being pressured by her b/f into sex using this argument. I have suggested a separate Sexuality Ref Desk, however, to shield the squeamish from such questions and answers. StuRat 06:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Block enforcement requested

64.107.2.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) was blocked earlier for 3RR and civility violations. Now back as 64.107.3.73 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), as shown by this edit. Can an admin block please? Thanks! Demiurge 22:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Done: I blocked that IP, but there will be hundreds more. Please see the thread higher up on this page Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#64.107.1.251.2C_etc. -- this is a much larger problem than meets the eye; I see a lot of editors who are individually colliding with this person, not seeing the bigger picture. Antandrus (talk) 22:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh wow, I had no idea what I was getting into. Demiurge 22:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Right to vanish

I tried to enjoy my right to vanish, but sysop User:Mike Rosoft prevents me to do that. He enganged in edit warring prior to any discussion with me. See Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for checkuser as well. -- Zacheus 23:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

He even deletes his own talk page where I informed him about the need being civil, to stop edit warring, and that I would ask another sysop to stop his actions. -- Zacheus 23:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I've replied on Mike's talk page. It seems that Zacheus has published personal details of other users on his blog. Hence, he has taken the right to vanish from fellow users but wants to take advantage of it for himself. As Mike has said, this does not make for a strong case. Zacheus has also filed a request to have another user's name changed. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This is untrue. Could you please provide any details? I would like to inform you that the right to vanish does not mean "right to vanish from fellow users", but rather from the Misplaced Pages.

"Zacheus has also filed a request to have another user's name changed." ??? -- Zacheus 03:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Keeping in mind that I haven't seen the actual evidence for what Samsara mentions, an editor who would post personal info about wikipedians on a blog should be "vanished" with a perma-block. That's just so uncool : ( Doc Tropics 03:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you read all the dicussion about off-wiki disputes? -- Zacheus 03:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The checkuser case issue is dealt with. I say let the guy change his name if he wants to. Just because he was a jerk on cs: (according to their arbcom) doesn't mean we should be jerks on en. Besides, its a very limited form of Right to Vanish; it keeps his name off of google but a look in the page history will recover the info should it ever become important. Thatcher131 04:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning Czech ArbCom I would like to add that I was banned for one year after one-year long successful work as a bureaucrat of cs: by two my enemies only: cs:User:Beren (better known under his sockpuppet User:RuM) who expressly stated in one case: "Unfortunately, V. Z. is right" and User:Wikimol who led abortive mediation with me and this failure made him one of my leading enemies. I am convinced that such a kangaroo court should lose its licence to ban people. For further information, read m:Meta:Babel/Archives/2006/01. -- Zacheus 09:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Legal threat at Christine Maggiore

The page Christine Maggiore was blanked by User:DavidRCrowe (who is connected to the subject of the page), replaced with a legal threat ("potentially libelous"). The prior version was heavily sourced, and he did not specify what parts he felt were libelous. I would just revert it, but with the threat of libel etc. wanted some outside review/help with how to proceed. Thanks. MastCell 23:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The page he blanked looked well sourced to me. Shouldn't it just be put back up per WP:LEGAL? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like it has been. I have put a request on the user's talk page asking them to substantiate their claim. The article is sourced well so I cannot see what the problem might be.-Localzuk 23:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I restored it. The question now is whether this act of vandalism and violation of WP:LEGAL warrants a block. I'm willing to overlook this once to avoid a WP:BITE, but it's a close call, and I can understand if people have different opinions.--Stephan Schulz 00:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see if he's going to learn from this or if he's going to respond with a reblank. If he reblanks I'd suggest a short block. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Just stating that the page is potentially libelous is not really a legal threat. However, the rest of the text the user replaced the page with is sufficient grounds to be interpreted as a legal threat. --Yamla 00:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Just FYI, the claim "Maggiore had not taken medication to prevent transmission of HIV to her daughter" does not appear to be backed up by the source cited for it (the LA Times story), as the guy says on the talk page. I.e. the article doesn't actually say that if she'd taken medication, it would have prevented transmission of HIV. --W.marsh 00:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this is how it works: the LA article says she wasn't taking medication, and the technical paper cited probably says that not taking medication means putting your child at greater risk. I'll have to read the paper for that. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You should remove stuff like this on sight. I think I caught all mentions of it in the article. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

From the "technical report": administration of zidovudine (ZDV) to the HIV-infected woman during pregnancy and labor and to the newborn was shown to decrease the risk of perinatal HIV transmission. I'll rephrase the article to make clear how the referencing works. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The second sentence of the L.A Times article source reads, "The HIV-positive mother of two laid out matter-of-factly why, even while pregnant, she hadn't taken HIV medications, and why she had never tested her children for the virus." This was the source for the Misplaced Pages article's statement that "Maggiore had not taken medication to prevent transmission of HIV to her daughter." MastCell 00:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This should probably be continued at the talk page of the article as to not clutter WP:AN, which is more for matters requiring administrator attention (which this no longer appears to require). Cowman109 00:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Thanks everyone for your speedy responses. MastCell 00:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Long page breakup committee

Hi, I know that there are about 1,000 administrators. I am interested in starting a small "long article" breakup committee so to provide assistance to those who need "super" long pages broken up. Many pages are fortified with seasoned editors who do not wish to see their beautiful articles broken up, and as such impose great resistance to even small changes. Especially with featured articles. Hence such a committee would need at least three administrators to control revert wars during the process of a page break up. Personally, I like to break up long science-related articles, so that new contributions can be made.

Can someone guide me to administrators who would be interested in this. Over the last month, I have been proposing an outline on the Misplaced Pages talk:Article size page. Long article issue problems are presently a major weakness in Misplaced Pages. We are almost into the top 10 most visited websites, according to Top 500 websites - Alexa. If we are to remain a major website we need to address this issue. Please leave comment. Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 00:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, in theory. But I don't really like the fact that you seem to think that instead of establishing a consensus that a page should be broken up, it is better to recruit some admins to prevent people from reverting such a thing. If this idea is implemented well, there should be absolutely no need of admins. -Amarkov _edits 00:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No, my plan is that:

First, an editor tries to establish consensus: the issue is brought up on the talk page, and it is suggested that the regulars break up the article into subtopics, with short summary paragraphs (w/ main article attachments), see thermodynamics as an example, so that the main page gets below a certain limit.

Second, if plan #1 stifles out in argument and indecision to act, for a number of consecutive weeks, than an breakup arbitration committee notice is placed on the talk page, putting an ultimatum deadline, such that either the regulars break up the page to below a certain limit by that date or an external breakup committee, enforced by a team of administrators, will do so.

Without a group project such as this, then Misplaced Pages talkpages and articles will become like Congress: lots of arguing but little action. This will need to be a team action if it is to be successful. Here is a recent example in which I placed a "long article" tag on a page but it was quickly reverted; for this situation I would have needed administrative assistance. --Sadi Carnot 01:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Modular Articles here. I've been meaning to do this for weeks. Will you help? Many thanks. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we seem to be on the same page; I would be glad to help with this, especially with the science-related articles, time permitting. We just need a bigger team. If we can get at least three core administrators, to help with the potential revert wars erupting between seasoned page editors connected to those pages, then I can scavenger up more regular editors to join the team who also like to see smaller articles. For now, I added your name here. I'll wait till the group gets up to about 10 people. --Sadi Carnot 01:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd hope we wouldn't need to push decisions down anyone's throat, and that administrators will support what is reasonable without being associated with the project. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 02:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That would be a worst case scenario. Ideally, if an article “breakup team” existed, then the mere placement of a "talk page notice" would be enough to compel the regulars to break up the page on their own. When one works on a page for more than a month, then article beer goggles tend to develop, wherein the page seems perfectly fine no matter how long it gets. Presently, the “32 kb warning” tag that pops up on long pages is completely useless, because editors will unconsciously justify their “unique” long pages for so and so reason, and argumentitively attack anyone who questions them about page length. ---Sadi Carnot 02:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

My problem still exists. A breakup committee should not have the power to decree that a page will be broken up by the involved editors, or someone else will come and do it for them, with admins preventing any reversion of changes. With the exception of the fact that they are openly acknowledging that they have that power, that is called a cabal, and it is bad. -Amarkov _edits 03:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well what alternatives do you recommend? Should we let bloated 100 kb page articles linger around for months or years on end because of a few hard-minded editors; while, in the mean time, hundreds of thousands of readers get turned off and give up reading or better yet can’t load the page in the first place because they have dialup or are using a Blackberry, etc.? I don’t see what harm can come from this. We open up some new pages, cut and paste, everyone does some cleanup work, and than instead of having one 100 kb page, we now have, for example, three 33 kb pages. The process takes a day or two. It’s not that complicated. But a project team is needed for a “pressure-effect” and administrators may be needed to give user warnings to seasoned editors. In the end, everyone is happy. I am certainly open for other ideas? --Sadi Carnot 03:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Um... The current method of establishing consensus before changing anything seems to work just fine. Obviously, the "few die-hard editors" think there is a good reason why their page should be 100 kb long. Why is this committee assumed to know better than the editors who have actually worked on the article? -Amarkov _edits 04:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

On another note, this discussion should be somewhere else, but I don't know where would make sense. -Amarkov _edits 04:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Copied to Misplaced Pages talk:Article size. Let's not clog up ANI.-Amarkov _edits 04:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• One should take care how a page is broken up. I've seen material nominated for deletion when material on its own wasn't considered suitable for its own article or even worse, a POV fork when it wasn't. - 131.211.210.12 08:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• This is April 1st, right? Giano 08:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

  I suggest to ignore this thread, like everyone else does. --Ghirla 08:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved from AIV

The following person RadioKirk has:

• 1) blocked me without any warning.
• 2) claimed "If you're not a sockpuppet, you're a meatpuppet," (his evidence was that a user from a similar IP address was vandalizing both my page and other's and I am well aware of the meaning of both terms). I believe this violates Wiki standards for obvious reasons.
• 3) Completly vandalized my page...the only justification given was "(per user request; history, however, will remain)"

. I apologize for poor formating.

I am rememberkigali 131.94.167.215 01:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You posted an article red link - you are probably Rememberkigali (talk · contribs) --ArmadilloFromHell 01:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are Rememberkigali, then why did you ask for your account to be deleted in WP:AN --ArmadilloFromHell 01:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I actually moved this from AIV, where it was originally posted by rememberkigali. I've notified him of the move (I first put it on the discussion page of the wrong link, lol, but added it in the right place). Anchoress 01:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This user is self-basting—and the response was an unabashed attempt to hide evidence. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 01:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I am the user in question, Rememberkigali. Please help me. I am being harassed unfairly by an admin who has blocked me without warning and is completly abusing my account.

• I would like RadioKirk banned from editing my user-talk page because of the THREE clear violations listed above.

On a seperate issue, I would like either my account deleted or user talk page because of the negative attention, vandalism, and other issues.

• The legal implications of RadioKirk's continued potentially libelous accusations, name calling, and public harrassment merrits your full attention.
• Please take concrete steps to settle this dispute.

Thank you. 131.94.16.243 13:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Making legal threats isn't going to help you very much... yandman 13:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yadman response...please don't misunderstand...I have no time for legal bickering in courts. I think that is stupid.
• BUT Misplaced Pages states that one must report ANY potentially libelous actions to wiki administrators because of their legal implications. While it may not be a biography of living person on which the harms occured, it still is wikipedia policy.

• Do you disagree that libel must be reported for legal reasons? I think it should be. That is has to do with rememberkigali makes it more important to me.

• "Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." That is wiki standard. In quotes.

• I am asking for fair review because of very unfair actions by others. Thank you.131.94.16.243 13:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Nintendude evading indef block

It appears Nintendude is evading his indef block with User:Livonia Mall and User:Clarenceville Trojan. He created a bunch of spurious categories and other typical Nintendude edits with these users over the past day & . Evidence this is actually Nintendude is here.--Isotope23 02:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If not Nintendude then some other unwelcome idiot. Blocked these two. Guy (Help!) 10:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Attempted account access

I just received an email from Misplaced Pages, saying 85.210.3.87 requested a password change. Are you able to see if this user/IP has had a username in the past? I guess it's someone I've pissed off before, persistant vandal/spammer maybe? Also, there's no way anyone can access my account without either guessing the password or using the temp password from the email, is there? Thanks —B33R 03:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

{Insert standard message-2} Ignore it. You've got the gist of it. If you ignore the message your password will stay the same, and only you are receiving the message. It doesn't help anyone hack into your account, just a minor form of nuisance harassment. Thatcher131 04:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Mena, Arkansas

Some edit-warring is taking place on Mena, Arkansas, regarding the attempts by some local person(s) to add massive quantities of material, with repetitive external links, regarding a local Yu-Gi-Oh! tournament. Some involved users (perhaps sock/meatpuppets of one another) are aiming personal attacks at those who revert their changes, calling them "gay" or "retards". *Dan T.* 03:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Due to massive sockpuppetry and rude comments by sockpuppets, I wouldn't be against semi-protection (I'm not sure if it follows guidelines). Try, maybe, WP:RPP. Patstuart 04:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've been involved in that little fracas since yesterday. Some small part of the editor's contribution can actually be included, and most of us have tried to save that bit when we revert, but his Edit Summaries have ranged from mildly amusing to moderately offensive. I've been reluctant to engage on his talkpage; it would probably be counter-productive unless he's handled with "kid gloves" (mine are at the dry cleaners today). Now that it's been brought up here, I can take it off my watchlist : ) Doc Tropics 04:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks JoshuaZ for the Sprotect, that should help. Doc Tropics 05:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:NotJudaism

You guys might want to take a look at this one. It's already up for deletion. Any advice? MetsFan76 05:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

ANI's not the place for this but I must say that the above template is the most qualified speedy deletion candidate per T1 that I've ever seen. (→Netscott) 05:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What might need looking into is the spamming going on surrounding this template. (→Netscott) 05:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah...I know exactly who you are talking about before I clicked on the link. MetsFan76 07:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

While I personally understand the sentiment behind it, and believe that user:Inigmatus may be skirting, or crossing, the bounds of WP:NPOV with his/her edits to the messianic sequence of articles, the template was not the proper way to approach the issue, and so I speedied it. -- Avi 06:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

ולמלשינים אל-תהי תקוה --Daniel575 | (talk) 11:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from provocations, in prayer form or otherwise. El_C 12:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Posting in non-English in the English Misplaced Pages's public forums is rude. If you want to do it on your or other Hebrew speakers' Talk pages, be my guest, but don't do it here. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And it was recreated, by Daniel575 a few hours later - apparently, "The first admin who performs a speedy delete here, is going to get serious trouble. I am not going to rest before that admin loses his admin status. Dear admin, if you want to delete this template, follow proper procedure.". Proper procedure is the speedy deletion of polemic templates. Proto::type 10:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User has recreated it, DBd it and warned user. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 10:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Speedied by myself. Duja► 11:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User claims on his talk page to have left 13 November. Block to prevent further disruption imo. – Chacor 11:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Use Deletion review. El_C 12:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This user really needs to learn about NPOV - look at this for example. Morwen - Talk 12:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems I'm an "anti-semitic British non-Jew". Yay for me. Oh, template has been protected from recreation, and Daniel has been warned about civility. He is back, in his words, to turn his user page into a "virtual memorial of the personal attacks leveled against me". Proto::type 13:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I just read that on his page. He should be banned for the anti-semitic British non-Jew comment. MetsFan76 14:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Kdbuffalo

Kdbuffalo (talk · contribs)/136.183.146.158 (talk · contribs) was blocked for a week on Sunday (see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Kdbuffalo_2#Blocked_for_a_week). Tonight the same editor was editing again from 136.183.154.18 (talk · contribs). I have blocked him for the duration of the week block, but have not reset the week block on all accounts. I am not exactly uninvolved, but I believe that blocking for block evasion is uncontroversial enough. I welcome input (feel free to tell me if I am wrong). Guettarda 05:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, as a very involved other use this seems to have exhausted community patience. Over 20 users endorsed the basic RfC complaint and his editing behavior changed not at all. Indeed, his main response on the RfC page was to make accusations at other editors and to assert that "JoshuaZ, the creator of this RFC/complaint page, is a evolutionists zealot and who is on a current crusade against me". At minimum the user should be put on community probation from editing all evolution related articles(as proposed by Pschemp in the RfC) and a general community ban may be more in order. JoshuaZ 06:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I reset the blocks for the original two, and extended the block to nine days. Feel free to alter that if that is insufficient. -- tariqabjotu 06:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I fully support the blocks issued to date, as well as gathering consenus for a community ban. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my patience is certainly exhausted. After being engaged in discussion by 136.183.146.158 (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) at talk:Dinosaur tonight, I checked his contrib history and found a near-identical series of disruptive edits to other science articles. Ken was blocked for disruption and trolling, and now evades the block in order to continue disruption and trolling. His history makes it clear that he has little interest in building an encyclopedia; POV attacks on articles that disturb his personal beliefs are his mainstay. Repeated discussions, warnings, and blocks have had no effect; stronger action appears to be necessary. Doc Tropics 06:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As his IP continually changes, I respectfully suggest all users involved to please keep an eye out for any similar IPs editing similar articles. –- kungming·2 06:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

He was also editing from 136.183.154.15 (talk · contribs) yesterday. He seems to have little respect for our rules and policies, and I am not optimistic that Tariq's block will do much to slow him down. I'd going to hope for the best, but if he continues to evade the block I would recommend a community block. Guettarda 13:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you'll find most editors who have had the experience of dealing with Ken would support such action. *Spark* 14:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...the multiple sock puppets already is not a good sign for the future. Wait and see I guess. pschemp | talk 19:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I propose semi-protecting his habitual targets; this has been effective in the past. He isn't trying to vandalize all Misplaced Pages; he's just trying to evangelize certain articles. By semi-protecting you could halt the disruption without blocking his entire university from anon editing.

Unfortunately this would be a large swath of articles and most of his disruption has been on the talk pages. Semi-protecting talk pages is a no-no. JoshuaZ 20:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio issues, Nareklm and HayasaArmen

Nareklm (talk · contribs) and HayasaArmen (talk · contribs) have posted multiple articles and images that are copyright violations. Hopefully I've spotted most of HayasaArmen's copyvios since the account has only been active since yesterday (see their talk page). But Nareklm has quite a few articles and images that need to be looked through. (many of them contain watermarks, making it clear they're copyvios). --Interiot 06:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandal now has his version of article protected!

This was moved from WP:AIV: Droliver has been vandalizing the breast implant article for months. He is a plastic surgeon who keeps adding links to promotional websites (that plastic surgeons pay to be listed on) -- thus turning this article into free ads for plastic surgeons (presumably including himself, but since I don't know his real name, I can't say for sure). What I can say with certainty is that there are numerous factual errors in his version of the article, in addition to bias. He removed research articles, FDA regulatory statements, and other information about the risks of silicone implants. The FDA now has a 40+ page "informed consent" document to warn patients about the risks, but you'd never know if from Droliver's version on Wikpedia. After reverting to his version of the article several times today, he persuaded Samir to block the article from any subsequent changes. This is all new to me, I am seeking help. Drzuckerman 06:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Viridae 07:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Just want to say that I took a quick look at the contributions of Droliver (talk · contribs) and there's a definite concern about POV pushing. Pascal.Tesson 07:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't think the edits to Breast implant qualify as vandalism by any stretch. I wasn't persuaded by anyone to protect Breast implant but did so because of the edit warring. The issues are being discussed at Talk:Breast implant -- Samir धर्म 07:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, it's always the wrong version. -- Samir धर्म 07:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Always! I LOL'd as soon as I noticed this section header on my watchlist. It's always the wrong version : )Doc Tropics 09:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. The people in edit wars always think there's a game afoot. --Woohookitty 15:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that the version locked was not the most recent, nor the most accurate. Equally interesting how vehemently the one doing the blocking defends himself. I hope that he can be as diligent in helping resolve the issues and arriving at an article that is accurate - that states the recent approval of the breast implants, along with the conditions and why they were imposed. Ditto with the recommendations. Also reading the sources would be useful, in seeing how they have been shaded or actually misstated. Rather than defending himself so, perhaps Samir can put his energies to constructive use. I not that the comment by Pascal was simply ignored by Samir and his choir. WHen an objective third party sees a problem, it would behoove the admin to pay attention.Jance 07:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting rather fed up with your attacks -- Samir धर्म 07:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Haven't you heard? Us admins always protect The Wrong Version. Grandmasterka 07:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hope you don't think I was attacking anyone by moving this here - thust thought it was a bit more appropriate (and amusing) Viridae 07:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, definitely amusing. Seriously, someone want to do something about this? . Personal attacks are getting out of hand and I'm involved. Previously User:Jgwlaw, you can see the block log. It's making it impossible to make any progress on fixing the Breast implant situation -- Samir धर्म 08:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Tennis expert (talk · contribs) - WP:POINT and constant disputes

This user has been problematic for a while, but for lack of a solution anywhere else, I'm bringing this here since I'm involved in the problem. This user has a history of getting into disputes with other editors over petty things, and making WP:POINT edits. He approached a WP:3RR violation on 2006-07 Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclone season by constantly reverting a sentence about rapid deepening, and had an unprovoked and heated exchange with the editors there after making edits that weren't within the standards of the tropical cyclone WikiProject.

More recently, he decapitalized "Southern Hemisphere" in that article, and was reverted since it is capitalized in Southern Hemisphere. After being reverted twice, he went over to the Southern Hemisphere article and immediately decapitalized almost every mention of "Southern Hemisphere" (he has done this twice). In addition, he changed the heading on the 3RR warning I left on his talk page (he actually did this twice), claiming that he has made thousands of edits here and has not violated the rule (whether he has or not is irrelevant). The talk page and contribs provide further evidence of incivility when it comes to 3RR (, for instance). --Coredesat 07:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Where is the "history of getting into disputes with other editors over petty things"? And where is the history of being "problematic for a while"? There is no evidence to support either claim. I have had disagreements with User: Chacor twice, and Cordesat has sided with him both times, best evidenced by adding unreasonable warnings to my talk page about the three revert rule. The warnings are unreasonable because my 2000+ edits history proves that I am well aware of and have never violated that rule. Cordesat, however, keeps warning me about the rule whenever Chacor and I disagree about something. Cordesat is willing to stick a warning on my talk page after one revert but declines to stick the same warning on Chacor's talk page after he has had made two reverts. Why is that? I am truly puzzled. By the way, I changed the heading for the warning on my talk page because the warning was clearly unreasonable in my opinion. I did not edit, delete, or archive the warning itself in any way - it's still there for anyone to see.

When have I ever made a WP:POINT edit? Never. Chacor pointed out that "southern hemisphere" should be capitalized because the Misplaced Pages article Southern Hemisphere capitalizes the term. When I went over to the article, I noticed that "southern hemisphere" was capitalized sometimes and not capitalized other times. In other words, the article was internally inconsistent. I fixed this problem and made the capitalization of that term consistent with ordinary usage. Despite my explanation, Cordesat persists in claiming that my fixes were WP:POINT. Why is he not assuming my good faith WP:AGF in making these edits? And even if both "Southern Hemisphere" and "southern hemisphere" were stylistically acceptable, which they are not, note the obligation of editors to ensure that articles are internally consistent about style issues.

The problem I encountered about the standards of the 2006-07_Southern_Hemisphere_tropical_cyclone_season is that no one would tell me what the standards were. They just kept saying that I violated them. I repeatedly asked to be told the standards and was ignored for 3 days. Look at the discussion page that Cordesat cites to see how perplexed I was.

As for the "rapid deepening" issue, I reverted a change twice, discussed my logic for doing so each time, and tried (but failed) to understand the logic of Chacor for opposing the change. Cordesat's characterization of my actions as "repeatedly" is at least a slight exaggeration, as is his claim that I got into an "unprovoked and heated exchange" with "editors." The disagreement was not "unprovoked," was not uncivil, and was with only two editors: Chacor and Cordesat himself.

I would ordinarily assume good faith about Cordesat's complaints, but I think the evidence supports the conclusion that this whole thing is nothing more than harrassment of me for trying to improve an article that Chacor and Cordesat have long been associated with. For example, look at my talk page and you will see a comment from Cordesat about how the author of an article is entitled to decide whether certain edits are acceptable. In this context, i.e., more than a mere disagreement about two acceptable styles, that's an incorrect reflection of Misplaced Pages policy about authors and editors not "owning" articles. Tennis expert 09:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

In my view, this user would meet the definition we have in troll (internet): a person who enters an established community (in this case, a WP:WPTC article) and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory messages. That's all I have to say, I am sick of having to deal with this user repeatedly breaking the set wikiproject conventions only to say later that "if they aren't this way, they should be changed to be so". – Chacor 10:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That is an uncivil comment if there ever were one. Honestly, I am not trying to cause disruption anywhere on Misplaced Pages, and I think an objective look at my edit history would prove it. I am simply trying to improve articles and fix problems where I see them. What I've encountered on 2006-07_Southern_Hemisphere_tropical_cyclone_season is uncivil behavior toward a person who is new to the article WP:CIV, a failure to assume good faith WP:AGF, a condemnation of the person for not knowing the standards, an illogical reluctance to disclose those standards even when repeatedly asked about them, unreasonable opposition to article improvements (perhaps in violation of WP:OWN), unwarranted and biased postings of 3RR warnings by an administrator who knows or should know better, and then an unjustified public complaint against me here by that same administrator. And please tell me why "set wikiproject conventions" should be set in stone and not subject to improvement. Where is the Misplaced Pages policy to support that? Tennis expert 21:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Since when are "the standards of the tropical cyclone WikiProject" policy? I keep seeing all of these discussions about how WikiProjects have the right to set rules for how certain articles can be named and edited, but I have yet to see any Misplaced Pages-wide policy which supports this assertion. On the other hand, I do see WP:OWN. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the comment by Cordesat that Tennis expert mentions in the context of WP:OWN: In the case of the changes you made, the person who starts the article gets to choose whether to capitalize "Southern Hemisphere" or not. Don't change it without discussing it first. --Coredesat 07:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If I may give my opinion, from what I read it appears that Tennis expert engaged in edits that did not meet the agreed upon standard of inclusion of various sources and he was wrong in being persistent with his edits. Also the Southern Hemisphere edits show no evidence of it being "internally inconsistent" as described by him. But nevertheless this discussion does not appear to have any "unprovoked and heated exchange" described by Coredesat. The 3RR warning seem like they might have been a little premature at times due to the users frustration with him. I would conclude that Tennis expert is quite persistent in pushing what he seems is right and editing to make a point instead of sticking to discussion. If Tennis expert indeed sees no sense in the agreed upon guidelines yet, as his comments suggest, I would urge Tennis expert to take a break from editing this subject and let things cool down, and then get into an editless discussion until things are cleared out. - Tutmosis 17:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm just getting really concerned that the denizens of WikiProjects have decided on rules that they expect every other editor to abide by, in violation of Misplaced Pages editing policy. Just because a Project claims ownership of an article, doesn't mean that they actually do. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Zoe on the above. This is becoming a real concern. Kukini 18:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not about us "owning" the article, but when there are conventions set, one expects someone new not to just butt in, but rather to discuss possible changes. The conventions are accepted and followed by every member of the wikiproject; why should we let someone who isn't part and just has a trivial interest in that article break it as he wishes, then when confronted about it say something to the lines of "I don't like it, it's not good, change it"? It is equivalent of someone new joining wikipedia, making personal attacks, and when warned saying "therefore, your policy is wrong, change it" - this policy has been agreed on by consensus. The wikiproject covers all TC articles, it is ridiculous to say that we can't set minimum acceptable standards for articles we cover. I would say we have one of the highest turnover rates for high-quality new articles, and that's thanks a lot to our expectations. – Chacor 00:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Block review requested

I have blocked Cplot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for one week for disruption and trolling. As demonstrated in this discussion on his talkpage, he had been adding a nonexistant category to the talk page for the September 11, 2001 attacks article., He was questioned about it and deliberately acted dumb. I asked him to remove it and he still acted trollish. He then added it to his own talkpage Cplot has been trolling various articles and has been repeatedly trying to add NPOV tags for which there is no consensus and when asked what he feels the issues are that make the article unbalanced, he gives vague referencing that the article is controlled by the feds (US Government) and the like. Cplot has also been blocked twice in the last 8 days for 3RR on the same article.--MONGO 09:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not need tendentious editors who act this way. I support your action, MONGO. --Ghirla 09:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"My guess is it's a bug in the Wikmedia software attributing it to me. I would leave it alone. It could be an important administrative or technical flag"

Talk about an imaginative excuse this takes the cake, still trying to figure out what USEBACA is supposed to represent, must be that wikimedia bug... nevertheless I agree with Ghirla ▪◦▪≡Ѕirex98≡ 10:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Good block Alex Bakharev 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Righteous block. A pound says that this does not fix the issue, see you in a week or so for the indef :-) Guy (Help!) 10:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

A week? I'll put $1.95 (to match your pound) that he'll be back as an anon or sock within a couple of days. Still, with the block, it might be time to request removal of edit protection from September 11, 2001 attacks. --StuffOfInterest 12:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

While now blocked...Cplot has readded the nonexistant template in an edit he made on his talkpage....I see little evidence this editor will reform.--MONGO 19:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean a category (not a template). That's not a template there, unless I'm mssing what you're referring too? Either way, what could be the disruption of a user adding a template or category to their own talk page? I'm not clear what allegations are being made here? --67.37.179.61 01:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting to note that an anon popped up and made claims about federal authorities (that's you, MONGO - say, could you tell us who really killed Kennedy?) blocking the IPs and accounts of dissenters, posting all over the Village Pump and Help Desk before being summarily execut... er, blocked. The message mentions Cplot. Tony Fox (arf!) 21:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

These IPs are all the same ISP

Same ISP as what. As me. I posted those. Not CPlot. We have differentt ISPs and now you're tyring to insuate these are the same as his ISP. You clowns will be exposed. Make no mistake about it. --68.30.225.68 00:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• 70.8.171.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 70.8.159.158 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 70.8.151.103 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 70.8.139.192 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 70.8.132.79 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 70.8.91.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 70.8.56.126 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.30.87.114 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) -
• 68.30.26.171 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.30.46.228 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.30.31.232 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.30.170.7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

--Aude (talk) 22:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Verily uncandy Block occassioned by what I believe is revenge. A nomination that appears to be based on pure prejucial facts, such as cplot's previous track 3RR record of being blocked. I hope Mongo will have the decency to realize that he is only making the situation worse and is not only avoiding the main issue but violating WP:Block. My concerns are being discussed on user:Mongo's page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CyclePat (talk • contribs)

I have extended Cplots block to indefinite due to him using IP's to evade the block. Ip's and Cplot make the same spelling errors, and there is of course a list Cplot socks--MONGO 06:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I also have to say that looking at the list of suspected CPlot sockpuppets, you're not getting Cplot or me. You're just casting a wide net that will hurt other Misplaced Pages contributors. It would be better for the Misplaced Pages community to just come to an amicable solution to this dispute. There's a lot of IPs out there. I don't know exactly how many, but it's a lot. And I don't care which one I use. On the other hand, you have not identified any that CPlot uses. How about next time I use Mongo's IP address. Which one are you using Mongo. I'll use that to post next time. --68.30.199.11 08:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

One more thing that's funny. CPlot posting on the chicago bears and football (from one of the socalled sockpuppets). You don't know CPlot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.30.199.11 (talk • contribs)

Possible admin abuse which needs to be investigated

For months MONGO has been involved in a prolonged edit war with 9/11 pages, including the September 11, 2001 attacks. On September 11, 2001 attacks there maybe some WP:OWN violations, but there are surely many WP:NPA, WP:AGF and WP:Civil violations of MONGO. There have been several ArbComs about this, the latest is at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Seabhcan/Evidence, which was initiated by MONGO.

Since 21 November 2006 , on the September 11, 2001 attacks wikipage, MONGO has edit warred with Cplot on September 11, 2001 attacks, a newbie with less than 1500 edits. MONGO provoked Cplot every step of the way, calling his edits trolling and harrassment. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Seabhcan/Evidence#MONGO_has_repeatedly_violated_our_Civility_and_No_personal_attacks_policies

MONGO just erased this comment from an anon, which defended Cplot. I restored the edit.

For a small taste of MONGO's administrative behavoir, please see the above, where MONGO threated to ban Salvnut and several editors and admins condemed this action: #Is_mentioning_Occam.27s_Razor_a_threat.3F

Suggestions

1. A couple of admins need to look over the edit war between Cplot and MONGO.
2. Based on #Is_mentioning_Occam.27s_Razor_a_threat.3F and the actions with Cplot, MONGO should ask a third party neutral admin to look at punishing editors he is in arguments with. MONGO should not do this himself.

Signed: Travb (talk) 12:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, stirring up old shit matters wouldn't get us anywhere. Its the talk of the now. Majority of the users above seem to endorse this block. Period. — Nearly Headless Nick 12:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

USER DEMIURGE

User Demiurge has deleted all my edits and is claiming I am "banned" under a different username. Is this some kind of inter-Misplaced Pages squabbling or something?

I have no idea to what he or she is referring and as this is my first day on Misplaced Pages, I did not respond to his initial message to me saying I "might" be someone else. I just forgot about it.

Please help.

Andrew Mikijaniec.

Mikijaniec 17:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• This user's first edit was to copy the contents of the userpage of yesterday's Rms125a sock to their own page. They're also editing pages like List of notable breast cancer patients according to survival status, and Ovarian cancer, which are interests of Rms, and using other distinctive editing quirks like putting external links inside parentheses . For more, see Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Rms125a@hotmail.com and User:Rms125a@hotmail.com. Demiurge 17:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I did copy the userboxes b/c I don't know how to make them myself, I'm kind of a Luddite, but I only used those that apply to me. If that was wrong, I apologize and I am willing to apologize to the person whose boxes I copied if you direct me to do so.

As far as an interest in cancer, my family has suffered enormously from that disease, and breast and ovarian cancers interest me particularly, so what? I guess it's possible that with millions of users on this dictionary, a couple may actually share the same interests.

Thank you for your time and attention. Mikijaniec 17:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Luddite": User_talk:Demiurge/Archive2#Like_I_said User_talk:Jack_O'Lantern/Archive1#Ryan_Phillippe.
  

"Canard": Talk:List_of_Catholic_American_Actors#Continuation_6

In other words, this user uses the same unusual words as previous Rms125a sockpuppets. Demiurge 18:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:AGF, but I find it a bit unusual that 2 different people would have a tendency to use such obscure words.--Isotope23 18:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This appears to be a clear open and shut case. Morwen - Talk 18:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Luddite" is hardly an obscure word... This user certainly seems suspicious, though. --Tango 21:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Can someone tell him not to do this again Please

"You're lucky he didn't call the fbi after what you did.--D-Boy 20:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)" . Please warn him not to repeat such things. Thanking you in anticipation. --- ALM 18:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Your concern is understandable, but this edit is 5 days old. A caution was not inappropriate under these circumstances, which have been discussed extensively on this noticeboard and are also being discussed in an arbitration case. BhaiSaab has left the project. He seems to have changed his mind, although he may soon be subject to a one-year ArbCom ban. Unless there has been some further incident, no action would seem to be required at this stage. Newyorkbrad 18:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It also should be mentioned that some context would be helpful when reporting something like this. It's unclear from just that passage if this is a WP:LEGAL threat, a personal attack, incivility or just banter between two people who know each other. Adding a bit more information relating to what this message was in response to would help an admin determine if any action is merited.--Isotope23 18:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter in which context he has given that remarks. Such remarks are not acceptable even if Bahi Saab is banned for-life from wikipedia. I feel it bad if no admin find such remarks offensive enough to stop the User:Dangerous-Boy repeating them again on some other user page and at some other time. --- ALM 09:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

long-term spamming (at times through IPs) by User:DAde

i would like to report a case of constant and disruptive spamming by User:DAde and his IP's through which he is continually inserting inappropriate material on a few select articles (Islam-related articles particularly Islamic extremist terrorism, and mainly via IP on Islam, Qur'an, Criticism of Islam and Criticism of the Qur'an). there have been dozens of editors having to revert the spam he keeps inserting (it is present on User:DAde's user page showing that these IPs are connected to DAde, and they operate on exactly the same articles as User:DAde). sometimes the IP's have been used to evade blocks or are used so that he isn't perceived as excessively reverting/spamming with his usual account.

• DAde (talk · contribs) (sample diffs of identical disruptive spamming: , , , there are perhaps literally over a 100 edits identical to these)

behaviour mirrored by various disruptive IPs (likely using dialup):

• 84.146.227.164 (talk · contribs)
• 84.146.227.244 (talk · contribs)
• 84.146.246.131 (talk · contribs)
• 84.146.222.48 (talk · contribs)
• 84.146.254.84 (talk · contribs)
• 84.146.216.205 (talk · contribs)
• 84.146.219.94 (talk · contribs)

i would request administrator intervention here and believe that this editor is starting to test the community's patience, as he has been inserting exactly the same spam for quite a while now. ITAQALLAH 18:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• User:DAde has had 4 blocks already, for this type of behavior. This is getting to be WP:POINT-making.--Isotope23 19:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

And 84.146.219.94 (talk · contribs). It looks like he has a list of Qur'an verses that he wants to publicize, and he repeatedly adds them to any page he thinks they'll go on, ignoring concensus. I support blocking. Tom Harrison 17:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

most recently (literally 30 mins ago): 84.146.226.65 (talk · contribs). ITAQALLAH 17:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Community patience" ban on User:DAde

This user always utilizing the same German dialup company has also been chronically vandalizing the former Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) history The IPs are as follows:

• 84.146.219.127 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 84.146.219.191 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 84.146.238.211 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 84.146.241.161 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 84.146.241.18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 84.146.233.136 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

And now that the Muslim Guild has been merged in the WP:ISLAM he's started this same pattern there:

• 84.146.227.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

If ever there was a pattern of behavior that merited a community banning this editor has demonstrated it.

• Fully support 100% community banishment of User:DAde from the project. (→Netscott) 17:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• User:DAde and the above IP's have a combined total of 0 worthwhile, constructive, or substantative edits among them. It's alot of POV pushing, WP:POINT making, outright vandalism, and general tendentious editing.--Isotope23 18:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• I deleted his user page as being utterly inappropriate, I endorse a ban. Guy (Help!) 18:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• I support a ban. I have told this user 2 or 3 times to edit more constructively and consider the opinions of other users, and yet his behavior has not changed at all. BhaiSaab 20:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• Also endorse, the editor has made no constructive edits whatsoever. JoshuaZ 20:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• getting to be? How about there. WP:Point and I endorse a ban as well. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 21:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• i too endorse a ban. ITAQALLAH 22:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support. I nominated his userpage for deletion. --Strothra 22:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• OK, I blocked the account. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• I fully support JzG's action. Sorry for my late involvment in this board. DAde was a pain in the ass. Netscott, Tom Harrison and myself did all what they could but our actions were in vain. I am not sure what to do about the IPs he's been using! -- Szvest Ω 10:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• I'm tired so can't run and check this right now, but can non-admins vote here? Danny Lilithborne 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

ADMINISTRATOR NEEDED

To the next available administrator:

I would like to request a "checkuser" as per the advice of Isotope23 so that I can resume my editing and have my edits (which have been deleted by Demiurge) restored.

Demiurge believes I am someone else, but Isotope23 has indicated that good faith should be assumed but as he is not an administrator his words are not binding, and Demiurge refuses to respond to my inquiries on his talkpage.

I really can't believe that because I happen to have a good vocabulary and grammar and sometimes use words that others don't understand or that someone else may have used ages ago that I can be prohibited from using Misplaced Pages.

Please help!!

Thank you for your time and attention.

Mikijaniec 18:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser is over there→, but self-checks are almost never run, because it is possible for a knowledgeable person to game the system to make it look like two unrelated users. Checkuser is only a means of confirming by technical means what is already suspected; you need to work out the reasons for the suspicion in the first place with the editors or admins involved. Thatcher131 19:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gay Nigger Association of America (18th nomination)

Mikkalai (talk · contribs) has re-opened this closed AfD even though there is an active and vigorous discussion going on at WP:DRV. I attempted to re-close the AfD, but Mikkali re-opened it and then protected it. I will not wheel war, but I believe that not only is it ridiculous to have two discussions ongoing, but Mikkalia's actions in protecting the page were completely inappropriate. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I endorse this in full. Clearly Mikkalai has not bothered to read the DRV or we would not be having this discussion in the first place. -- Tawker 20:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever is going to happen, please let's not wheel war over deletion/undeletion of the article. It has too many edits in its history, you'll bring the servers to their knees. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

He re-opened the discussion because he felt it shouldn't have finished, but protected the page making it impossible for anyone to discuss anything there? I can't think of anything to say that wouldn't violate WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, so I'm saying nothing. --Tango 21:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorsed as well. Protection is a clear abuse of admin powers.⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 21:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think everyone needs to look at the history for more than 3 seconds. He downgraded the page from full to semi-protection. Note: I agree with the closure and am not defending his actions, rather clarifying what's going on. -- Steel 21:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Actually, to clarify. Someone else, who endorsed the deletion, fully protected the page since there was no reason for anyone to edit the page, and it would have likely been a troll magnet. What Mikkalai did was change it from full protection to semi-protection so (most) people could continue to participate in the AfD. -- tariqabjotu 21:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Unprotecting and trying to re-open the discussion is inappropriate, but wheel warring to undelete the article is worse. —Centrx→talk • 22:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I protected it because it was being vandalized. It simply doesn't make sense to have both the AfD and the DRV open at the same time, so I endorse Zoe's and Tawker's actions and not Mikkalai's for process reasons, completely separate from my support for Tawker's original deletion. Chick Bowen 22:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If Mikkalai has a problem with the close (and it's pretty clear that he does), he's quite free to register his objection at Deletion Review...Mackensen (talk) 22:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring at Beit Hanoun November 2006 incident

This is becoming silly - the page has already been protected, blocks made on particularly aggressive users acting inappropriately. Now the edit war has returned over an undeleted image, partly due to the perceived lack of discussion over the original deletion and subsequent rapid DRV. Please could a neutral administrator take a look in and try and do something about this? QmunkE 22:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think this needs to be re-protected. If the three-revert rule is violated but a couple of the editors, they ought to get the standard twenty-four-hour block. Only if this becomes a melee should this be re-protected, in my opinion. -- tariqabjotu 22:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Odd editing

WTGDMan1986 (talk · contribs) has been warned numerous times about ridiculous edit summaries, including several times by myself. This edit is pretty much the bottom straw for me. He added several userboxes to his user page with the edit summary: Added even more userboxes I forgot a month back. Shane McMahon can leave that N.C. state trooper alone when it comes to girls or Jun Kazama will BREAK HIS ARMS. So THERE. Many of his edit summaries include personal attacks on vandals and just belligerance unrelated to the actual edits. Here are some other examples , , (which was a totally inappropriate revert as it is, but thats another story). These are the ones that I found most inappropriate , . More recently there have been edits like and .

In addition, the user is saying things like "you have been reported" in the edit summaries, then reporting users to WP:AIV without ever warning them on their user talk pages. Can someone PLEASE intervene here and examine this? It's getting frustrating to deal with. Thanks, Metros232 22:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, there's the user page which is being used to write a sort of odd novel on Misplaced Pages's dime. Metros232 22:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

He's just under twelve years old. Problem? Anyway, I think the excessive irrelevant content ought to be deleted. This isn't his personal website. -- tariqabjotu 22:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait never mind; that was one of the fictional characters that was under twelve. I'm deleting the irrelevant content. -- tariqabjotu 22:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Jghfutikdpe3 (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

User page vandalism and threats. Chondrite 22:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I indefblocked. Anyone want to pursue the threats issue? —Wknight94 (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This user is a sock for blocked user The hobgoblin (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log), compare their user page and their comments on Mulatto. looks like both should be permanently blocked, SqueakBox 22:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And AmyCrescent (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) engaging in the same persoanl attack abuse , SqueakBox 22:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This guy's using Bell Canada, which is dynamic. We can't block the underlying IPs. --Rory096 01:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Vicious vandal User:Squek below, No77, same user, thanks for the info, SqueakBox 01:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Latest is User:Luda1, SqueakBox 01:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Requst for review of a block and semiprotection of Thomas Jefferson

Yesterday, new user Piratesofsml (talk • contribs • logs • block user • block log) began replacing most instances of the word 'deist' in Thomas Jefferson with 'christian'. I indef blocked after a few warnings because the editor was using fraudulent edit summaries that suggested trolling to me, , but later reduced to 24 hours because comments on his talk page suggested a willingness to discuss and attempt to support his changes. The user, having bragged about about his leet IP changing skillz and asking why he would stop if he could evade his block, proceeded to continue to replace his preferred version using various IPs, as well as blanking and otherwise vandalizing the article, leading me to semiprotect and extend the main account's block to one week. Bringing here for review. -- Vary | Talk 22:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I endorse. -- tariqabjotu 22:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

More generally, I have all US Presidents on my watchlist and Jefferson is by far the most persistently vandalized. Newyorkbrad 01:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection request for Lăutari

User Greier was banned for violating WP:3RR, however, as soon as he disappeared, anonymous users came in and repeated his pattern of reverting the article, even going as far as to mock my wording of the revert, and spuriously requesting discussion(as he didn't even start a topic on the article's talk page). Please respond with all possible haste.--Vercalos 22:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This belongs at WP:RPP. Thanks. Chick Bowen 22:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

romaniroma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is khoikhoi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)--213.42.21.80 22:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I find that extremely hard to believe. Chick Bowen 22:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Afrika paprika anons

Apparently Afrika paprika, with whom I have never dealt before, is back vandalizing a variety of articles. See 89.172.195.177 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), for example. I have sprotected all of the pages in question, but now he's started vandalizing my Talk page, which I don't want to sprotect ... User:Zoe|(talk) 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I have had to sprotect my page because of this idiot's vandalism. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Suspected account used to evade block

User:Whedonette started her account in September and has 109 edits, three of which are in the main namespace. However, she has a knowledge of Wikipedian policies that I have never seen in such a new user, particularly one which only made its first edit on November 9. Given that the account has been solely used to aggressively nominate items at MfD, I suspect there may be block-evading going on. Has anyone been blocked in the past few months with such deletionist tendencies? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

User is also making some fairly erratic edits. She initially accused me of personally attacking her for questioning her editing history, but now an admin has backed me up and has pointed out that this is indeed suspect, she has become oddly conciliatry. There's something strange going on here. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit that my intuition is often wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that Whedonette is the incarnation of banned User: Cheese Dreams, aka User:-Ril-. Whedonette demonstrates an aggressive & disruptive wikilawyering similar to this banned user, as well as other marked yet inconclusive similarities. Does anyone else share this intuition? Or am I simply being paranoid? -- llywrch 00:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that. CheeseDreams/Ril struck me as far less assertive, far more focused on religous articles, and less intelligent. Most of all, the Ril sarcasm struck me as primarily juvenile in nature, while Whedonette's is ... sharper, more angry, more didactic. Do I find the pattern of contribution's suspicious? Yes. But until and unless I see something that falls afoul of a policy, I -- and everyone else -- should assume good faith. My take. My opinion. --Elaragirl 05:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Promotional efforts Liberty Dollar

Pmomotional efforts involving profits and politics are in play. This says "CALL TO ACTION: Contact the media: Urge the media to report on the Liberty Dollar! IMPORTANT...THIS JUST IN: Help...a few self-described experts, working through Misplaced Pages, are at it again. This time they've added a Pros and Cons section on the Liberty Dollar. While this Misplaced Pages article is more accurate than earlier versions, it still needs to be updated. Please take a moment and post a quick comment (hopefully to the "Pro" section!) at: Liberty Dollar." Liberty Dollar says "The Liberty Dollar is a private currency issued by "National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code" the company that mints and warehouses Liberty Dollars (SMI in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho) is a for-profit business.". WAS 4.250 23:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not just delete the "Pros and Cons" section? It is unencyclopedic and complete bollocks to boot. JChap2007 00:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Vlh

This user continues to insert original research into Misplaced Pages despite many warnings and a block not too. His edits primarily inserting the text are into Grand Slam Champion and Triple Crown Champion. He first started this a week ago, and he was blocked for it. His first day back from a block and he again reinserts it and removes the sprotection tag (I had the articles semi-protected a while back for IP's adding the original research into Misplaced Pages, and have asked for sources before but nothing has been given to me as now). I ask for a longer block for Vlh if nessecary, but this slow-pace vandalism of sorts needs to stop. semper fi — Moe 00:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Pschemp block review

Pschemp (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves)

This is a flow-on from an above section. In the section above, Trödel (talk • contribs) expressed concern over two blocks by pschemp while I expressed concern over an additional two blocks without warnings:

• 207.70.152.4 for 48 hours and 68.100.239.10 for 1 week
• NYScholar for 24 hours and this IP for 1 week.

I've found her responses to requests for review of these blocks less than edifying. For example, after telling me to "get facts straight" when I later explained that she was mistaken, she simply removed my message without comment. As is her right of course, but for the fact that making mistakes when blocking for "trolling" has fairly serious consequences, and learning from mistakes is generally a good thing.

While the vast majority of her blocks appear to be perfectly sound username/vandalism blocks, I'd like to see pschemp use more caution with regards to blocking for "trolling" and in particular to both use warnings before applying them and bring the block here for review. I'd also like to see a higher level of civility from her when queried.
152.91.9.144 00:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User 152.91.9.144, I'm not sure that I understand why you have created two sections here, or why you reordered the comments, repeatedly, in the previous section, or why you're taking quite such a strident tone. It may be best to present the facts dispassionately and succinctly and let the facts speak for themselves. Since those facts ARE presented, the best thing to do now is stop completely,. ++Lar: t/c 04:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

All admin actions can be reverted, if she makes the majority of blocks without error, then theres nothing to be reviewed. semper fi — Moe 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do think pschemp is rather slap happy with blocks!--Light current 01:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Cant agree! Any erroneous block action should be investigated with vigour! And punished harshly if if proven--Light current 00:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Erroneous blocks were reverted and apologised for. Nothing to discuss. Samsara (talk • contribs) 00:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Samsara. Nothing on Misplaced Pages is used for punishment and that only make looks you look like a troll by suggesting that kind of thing. semper fi — Moe 01:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not imply (or even hint/suggest) that I'm a troll. I find that GROSSLY OFFENSIVE In fact its more offensive than you could possibly imagine! Thanks! 8-)--Light current 02:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. semper fi — Moe 02:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Light, you are sometimes productive. However, right now obsessing over a block from 3 months ago is unproductive and comes across as trollish. JoshuaZ 02:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Im always productive! Its just that it may not appear that way to everyone at all times 8-)--Light current 03:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh good god. The NYscholar block was reveiwed here and agreed with by 2 additional admins. The week was shortened to 48 hours. The anons got 48 hours because it was one guy hopping IPs to make the same vanadalism edit. pschemp | talk 01:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Admins, as the enforcers of good behaviour, should themsevles be seen to be whiter than white. Thats why I could never pretend to be one!--Light current 01:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I blocked you three months ago for incivilty and I see you still can't let it go. pschemp | talk 01:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasnt particularly referring to you. But if the cap fits....--Light current 01:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do think pschemp is rather slap happy with blocks!--Light current 01:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Just let it go LC. semper fi — Moe 01:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No! I think excessive admin actions should be scrutinised unless apologies are forthcoming for mistakes--Light current 01:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocking you wasn't a mistake. That also was reviewed by at least 4 other admins who agreed with it. pschemp | talk 01:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah whatever your friends say must be OK! 8-) I promise as long as I live I wont forget your unjust blocking of me--Light current 01:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The Internet is serious business. </sarcasm> Danny Lilithborne 11:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I encounter serial vandalism from ip hoppers, the pattern is fairly easy to spot, I block on sight after the first few ips have done the circuit and then add a block summary Serial vandalism to a small group of articles, no warning required so other admins get the picture of what's going on, unless others suggest this is wrong, I'm continuing to do so and I'd suggest pschemp does likewise. --Alf 01:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for the suggestion Alf. pschemp | talk 01:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes, adding a comment to the block log entry such "see my blocking log" or "see today's history of (name of article)" might also allow a concerned editor or a sysop doing an unblock review to see how the block falls into the bigger picture in these IP-hopping type situations. Newyorkbrad 01:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Sadly in this case the "concerned editor" was well aware of the bigger picture, but he just didn't agree with me. Though we had a nice civilised discussion on my talk page about it, and worked things out eventually. pschemp | talk 01:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Vicious vandal User:Squek

Can someone ban this user sharpish.--Zleitzen 01:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Concur, this is a vandal only account. Doc Tropics 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Has now been blocked indef. Newyorkbrad 01:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. See also the above section about this user. Two edit conflicts to post this.... --Rory096 01:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone put in for an IP check at RFCU? Newyorkbrad 01:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

See No 69 above Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Jghfutikdpe3 (talk • contribs • count • logs • page moves • block log • email), same user, SqueakBox 01:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Could an admin please review this MfD?

Please see Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:BricksFromEurope/Corny Medieval Costume. Probably an attack page against a teen identified by real name and photograph, though possibly just an in-joke among friends, but the page creator is blocked for vandalism so we can't ask him, nor would I trust his answer. Prod has been removed twice, but if this is what I fear it might be, it shouldn't stick around for 5 days. Thanks, Newyorkbrad 01:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

speedy speedy speedy -- I somehow didn't see this on my talk page when I agreed to userfy . (image is gone, see image name) *sigh* Dina 02:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Lyfe Tyme

I don't have much time to look into this user right now, but could another admin take a look at Lyfe Tyme (talk · contribs)? The user's contributions seem to be a tangled web of self-promotional articles for rap labels and rap artists that don't appear to be notable. I would investigate this myself but I'm tied up with a few other things in real life tonight. Thanks, Metros232 01:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

3RR on Talk page!

3RR on Talk page of Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi by Khoikhoi. --Striver 02:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Report to WP:AN/3RR. Patstuart 04:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyway only three reverts, not four Alex Bakharev 04:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Whedonette provoking users on a MfD

See related AN/I issue.

User:Whedonette, in my opinion, is being sarcastic and provoking users into heated conversations on Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:AtionSong/World's_Longest_Poem_(second_nomination). Examples include , , and . I am getting annoyed with her sarcasm and I'm sure other users are too. Yuser31415 02:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

<disclaimer>I'm involved in the discussion, arguing generally the same point of view as Whedonette.</disclaimer>
Not to take sides with either Whedonette or Yuser31415, I'll just say that a) sarcasm is hardly the type of thing that needs to be resolved here, or at all; and b) that if anything, Whedonette is the one who could be making a complaint here regarding borderline incivility. However, I really don't see any situation at all that needs intervention, but you're free to look and make your own decision. —Doug Bell  04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Yuser31415.--SUIT 04:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

<Same disclaimer as Doug> Getting annoyed by one's sarcasm is not really an issue that requires admin intervention, is it? And the point of an MfD is to generate debate. riana_dzasta 04:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. User:Elaragirl has summed up my frustrations extremely well, here. Yuser31415 04:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that my frustrations were listed due to Whedonette asking for my opinion. I'm a sarcastic person myself, so the posting (which is back and forth on both of our talk pages) should be taken in toto and not out of context.--Elaragirl 05:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that being intensely sarcastic and aggressive is not something for Admins to concern themselves over. But as my previous section says, there is something deeply suspicious about someone who knows so much about Misplaced Pages and its policies that from Day 1 they MfDed everything they didn't like. I was here three months before I knew enough to AfD something, let alone how to dispute the nuances of policy. This person should not know so much so soon. Also, her responses to allegations to sockpuppetry are all "This is the only account I edit under" - that would make sense if she has been blocked in a previous one. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet of User:Cute 1 4 u

I would like to get some feedback on the possibility of User:PumpkinPie being a sockpuppet of User:Cute 1 4 u. As you can see by PP's talk page, the user has been welcomed by the other sockpuppet User:Pumpkin Pie (note the space and lack of space in the two usernames)--Ed 03:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't think it matters, the editor only had one edit and that was during July. semper fi — Moe 04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But it might be helpful if we block every opportunity for Cute 1 4 u to evade her block.--Ed 04:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Preform

Could someone block user User:Preform - a confirmed sockpuppet of an indefinitely banned user. I already added the tag on the page. --Zleitzen 03:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. --physicq (c) 04:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Community ban for ParadoxTom

Please see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive141#Community_ban_for_ParadoxTom for the earlier discussion. In October I proposed a community ban for this editor who obsessively edits wars at Jews for Jesus and is uncivil (see the original post for details). Two other admins agreed to a ban and two more decided to give him one more chance at mediation, and implement the ban if he broke 1RR another time. Since then, mediation has failed, and he has not only broken 1RR multiple times, he received his second 3RR block in that time today. I have implemented the ban and put it up for review. Dmcdevit·t 05:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Support block. Ral315 (talk) 05:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

He has clearly exhausted the community's patience as indicated by this. Endorse the block. --Srikeit 05:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree. -- Samir धर्म 05:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Support as well. It makes perfect sense to ban someone who clearly can't work within our framework and refuses to respect Misplaced Pages policy. Khoikhoi 05:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Support, inflammatory editor editing from a single-purpose account at a controversial article who has been given every chance to abide by policy and yet refuses. --MPerel 05:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Both tragic and amusing at the same time! Support. Grandmasterka 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorse is this a record number of 3RR blocks for the same article? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

With 9 blocks on Jews for Jesus, I think he either equals or is just beaten by Lou franklin, with at least 9 blocks for 3RR on Societal attitudes towards homosexuality, depending on how you count. --Sam Blanning 12:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

bye bye, come back later when you can edit constructively (note: that is slang for "endorse").⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 07:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorse. He has said many times that he has no intention other than to edit the J4J article. Alphachimp 08:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse obviously. This kind of crap we do not need. Guy (Help!) 09:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse. Anyone so incorrigible that admins stop even bothering to explain what he's being blocked for (see William's most recent blocks) isn't worth our time. --Sam Blanning 12:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Rober Browning article has been vandalised.

its protected so could someone clean up the mess please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonW11 (talk • contribs)

Re Robert Browning - which mess ? I see no obvious problem --ArmadilloFromHellGateBridge 07:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate Username

User:BITE DACIER doesn't seem to be a vandal, so I've explained to him that the block he'll receive isn't due to his actions, and that he can, and should, create a new account. Could someone block him please? Thanks. yandman 08:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Indef block needed

See this. Imagine you are the boy he is talking about. WAS 4.250 08:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Some people are sick. Blocked as well. Moriori 08:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Indef block of Starblindy

Starblindy's indef block seems completly uncalled for as a result of his good contributions and nice personal comments and attitudes. Since his formation he has been a useful contributor and created 2 useful and well sourced articles. His block seems to be a rush reaction from him posting a message questioning the blocking of one user. Since that he has been considered immediatly to be a sockpuppet with no real evidence. Starblindy indef block should be reconsidered as to loose such a user would be a great upset to the wikipedia community. --87.74.17.152 09:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I apologize I mis-read an article I think this is the wrong place to discuss matters remove it at will, if fact.
• His name is too similar to User:Starblind. He should at least considering his username. - Mgm| 11:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• May I suggest: User:Starblinder,User:Starblindee, or my favorite; User:AAAAAAAAAAAAH!-That Damn Star Blinded Me! 69.222.174.9 11:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Calculus Student

I'm a little concerned that Calculus Student (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is at best a gimmick/joke account and at worst an attack account. User talk:Calculus Student appears to have been intended as a sort of free message board for the sharing of "Chuck Norris-type" stories between the students of a professor who is referred to by nickname in the text. The account in question has one edit that is not to its own talk page, a borderline vandalism edit of an article space talk page, and it appears several other IPs have contributed silly stories about the same professor to Calculus Student's talk page. Most of these anecdotes aren't necessarily defamatory, but it nonetheless looks like free web hosting with the sole purpose of posting nonsense about a teacher, and the account does not appear interested in making constructive edits.
It seems deletion and protection might be a good idea to prevent possible attack content and misuse of the site via WP:NOT#BLOG. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 13:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indef, and user/user talk pages deleted. I've watchlisted them; I decided to forgo the protection for now, in case he/she wants to return and make constructive edits. Looks like the students involved are from Gulf Coast High School. --Slowking Man 14:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dormant role accounts

Well, it's that time of the year again... there are some accounts that remain unused for months, but when a certain specific issue comes up they suddenly return, make a dozen arbitrary edits and start advocating this issue. Of course we routinely discount new accounts on grounds of sockpuppetry, but these tend to slip between the bars since the account is up to several years old, it just so happens that it only edits when the issue comes up (see DRV for examples). What would be a reasonable reaction to such an account? (Radiant) 14:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

User Duja's unacceptable behavior

User Duja is putting up the article List of Serb war criminals for deletion. I wrote the article and it simply lists notorious people, members of serb army, who commited horrible attrocities during the wars on the Balkans. I feel like that user Duja want's, in some way, to hide these crimes and even perhaps deny them by constantly putting up, a totally fundamental and true article, for deletion. Please intervene with this problem, this sort of things make wikipedia a sorrowful place which really hurts to see. Greetings Ancient Land of Bosoni 14:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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