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Association of Reference Desk Volunteers

RefDeskBot Archives: Caution

Just a couple of things to look out for to ensure that the archiving goes through with smoothly. There are a couple things that will confuse the bot at the moment, but they're easy to prevent if we're paying attention.

1. Make sure every question has a proper title.

   Do not allow non-titled text to sneak in below the date header. If somebody adds a question without a title tag, give it one. Not doing so will currently make the archives pretty messy.

2. Make sure the date headers are done properly, i.e. = November 13 =, just to be on the safe side.
3. Do not change the number of days transcluded, or move around the links to the transcluded pages. If you want to suggest an extension or shortening of the transclusion time, talk to Martin so that the bot doesn't get confused again.
4. Be careful when restoring pages after a blanking so as to restore it in exactly the same manner.
5. Add <nowiki></nowiki> tags or codify HTML/scripts in article titles to keep the archive indexes from screwing up. Normal Wikilinks are OK.

If a couple people keep an eye out for these things there should be no problems : )!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

How about a date with no questions (only very seldom on the /Math desk)? I've been adding a comment just in case. --hydnjo talk 21:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... should be OK; the bot will probably just create a transcluded page with only the date header, though the index might screw up. It might be best to play it safe until we can ask Martin and make sure, but you can always just let it happen and see if it screws up or not; the bot isn't going to crash or anything, at the very worst it will just screw up the archives for that day, which won't be a big deal if there are none!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  11:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi - sorry for my inactivity :) I think I've found the reason for that problem a few days ago, though freshgavin's points above are all still very important. The bot will accept =November 13= and = November 13 = - nothing else! The wrong date header, or the wrong number of transcluded pages will cause the bot to fail to archive anything that it hasn't already done - this is some behavoir that I'll look into improving, so it only fails on the bad desk. For the problem with no questions - I'm happy to report that there isn't one! The bot just takes all the text from the start of one date header to the start of the next, so the amount of text there makes no difference to it (thankfully ;)). Thanks - Martinp23 11:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Editing archived responses

If I look up something in the archived responses and find an erroneous response, or feel that an additional response would clarify or improve the quality, is it possible and or allowed to add something? Edison 06:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I add to them all the time. Beware that it's not as likely that anybody will see the post, however. Therefore, you might want to post to the user page of the person to whom you are responding, in addition. StuRat 06:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I had seen editors scold questioners to the effect that such and such a question had already been answered, but did not see how to search in the archives, then found that if site:en.wikipedia.org "reference desk" was added to Google search string it would turn up those archived Q and A's. As soon as I looked up several topics of interest, I found a veritable 'Child's Garden of Misinformation,' but wasn't sure about putting in my own thoughts. Edison 06:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: This page is 257 kilobytes long

Time for another talk page archive by the looks of it--71.247.105.54 16:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• And in the last 12 hours since it was archived, it's already jumped back up to 139 kilobytes, we'll be ready for another archive by the end of the weekend--71.247.105.54 12:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont like what you have written, so Im going to delete it

To allow any one person to decide what "might possibly be offensive to some potential reader somewhere" and allow to them to remove it (except in clear cases of WP:BITE, WP:CIVILITY etc) is in my opinion the start of individual CENSORSHIP. This would be the end of WP IMO 8-(.--Light current 21:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes community pressure can be achieved by simply ignoring silliness when silliness seeks response. Something along the lines of DFTT. --hydnjo talk 20:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes, the community's response on this talk page can be demonstrated by simply ignoring silliness when silliness seeks response. Something along the lines of DFTT. --hydnjo talk 17:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Whats DFTT? Nothing under D in link! Also what happens if two or more people are being silly with each other at the same time? 8-)--Light current 23:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well then, silliness abounds. I'll start the well, you know, the ignoring for now just to see what happens. --hydnjo talk 23:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

OK I dont mind! And I wont hold it against you! Not that I admit being a t**** or a disruptor. 8-))--Light current 23:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

DFTT - Don't feed the trolls. --Salix alba (talk) 23:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes thanks I did find it 8-)--Light current 23:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Censorship is a red herring here. You have no free speech rights on Misplaced Pages, except insofar as they serve the goals of the wiki. -- SCZenz 06:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"You have no free speech rights here?" Be prepared to be assimilated into the Wiki. Resistance is futile. Edison 16:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont like what you have written, but I'm not going to delete it

Neither am I unless it violates existing policy OR I can get someone else to agree rthat its not acceptable! 8-)--Light current 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I started this section but was remiss in that I didn't add context immediately below the header. As a result, the purpose for which I added the header can and has been misunderstood so I'll add my intent.

This is a talk page and as such is subject to the talk page guideline of "Keep on topic: Talk pages are not for general conversation. Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." I think however, that the guideline should not apply strictly to this particular talk page as it is not related to an article and am proposing that the guideline be interpreted more liberally here on this page. And further, as I have stated in the previous section, irrelevant or "silly" commentary should be ignored rather than debated at length. I'm definitely not suggesting that the RD itself be immune to the deletion of inappropriate comments. Just the opposite, because of the public face of the RD I feel that we should be quite strict about deleting inappropriate material there. --hydnjo talk 19:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Seagulls

Non-serious questions about seagulls are no longer funny. They are vandalism, and should be reverted on sight. JBKramer 13:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I assume this was triggered by the (currently deleted) question on the Science RD about the placement of seagulls' eyes. I see you placed several notices on the anon contributor's talk page about this, but when he responded on your talk page, you didn't really explain your deletion, you just described the question as "idiotic". Taken in isolation, it looks like a serious question to me - certainly not idiotic. Yes, I know there is a history of "odd" seagull-related questions and answers on the Science RD - but labelling this particular question as "vandalism" seems a bit extreme to me. Is it possible that in this instance you are over-reacting ? Gandalf61 13:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No. This is a continuation of the seagull inside joke. Occham's razor. JBKramer 13:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

And let's be clear - brand new users don't know how to read edit summaries. This one does. I don't know or care who is behind this most recent stupid gull question, but it needs to be nipped in the bud. JBKramer 13:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I hate bloody seagulls too and anything to do with them 8-(. However this is a serious question from a person who deserves an answer. Our resident seagull expert (Kurt) will be along shortly to do just that! 8-)--Light current 16:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It was NOT a serious question, and it did NOT deserve an answer. Serious questions are NOT asked about gulls, and they are NOT asked by people that are reading edit summaries and know advanced wikipedia concepts like "revert", and "vandalism," but have no edit history. Is this hard for you to understand? JBKramer 16:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you know what is serious and what isnt. Can you read peoples minds? Pllease do not remove posts without agreement as to their undesirability on these pages. Thanks1 8-)--Light current 16:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I will edit the reference desk with the intention of having a useful and usable encyclopedia, not to preserve process fetishism. Further gull questions from that IP address will be shot on sight. Future gull questions will also likley be shot on sight. Reasonable editors to this encyclopedia, whom have been driven away from the RD by editors who like lolgull questions will return, if we allow them. This is not up for debate. JBKramer 16:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm! Do you think that is wise? 8-)--Light current 17:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a dynamic IP. I've been around WP for ages but I've never really contributed enough weighty content to think about registering (I mainly go around reading stuff I'm interested in and correcting small errors that I find). As I've already explained to you, I was not attempting to vandalize or disrupt. I was watching the gulls from my window this morning and the question came into my head. If I knew what a fuss this was going to create, I wouldn't even have bothered. Thanks to all the people who've supplied serious answers. I really do appreciate it. --84.68.125.122 17:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Not. Fooling. Anyone. JBKramer 17:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've explained my position and I don't see the need to do so any further. Anyone reading this is free to make up their own minds about my intentions for posting my question. I feel that you are not following the policies at WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF and that TBH, you are bang out of order. I'm not going to be drawn into a flame war over this. --84.68.125.122 17:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

JBKramer, starting a topic on this talk page and then saying "this is not up for debate" could seem a little inconsistent, perhaps ? Anyway, if the anon contributor really is trying to make a point instead of asking a genuine question, as you seem to suspect, then you have given them exactly what they wanted. Gandalf61 17:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Their point was to have a little laugh about their inside joke again. I don't see any laughing, do you? Also, before anyone gets the "just an innocent gull question" look on their face - 84.68.216.184 (talk · contribs). JBKramer 17:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• 84.65.209.240 (talk · contribs)
• 84.67.70.185 (talk · contribs)
• 84.67.79.146 (talk · contribs)

All the same dynamic ISP. JBKramer 17:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, those were all my questions. What's your point? I love seagulls and I want to know as much as I can about them and I would quite like to own one as a pet, so I was asking in the place where I thought I could get some answers. --84.68.125.122 18:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You can find answers to all of your future gull related questions at User Talk:Kurt Shaped Box. They are no longer appropriate here. If KSB is unable to answer your gull related questions, I will answer them on my talk page. JBKramer 18:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed a strong trend on Misplaced Pages, which is taking the word 'vandalism' and making into something quite seperate from its classical meaning.

Vandalism, in the original sense, was about defying the Roman Empire's rules and regulations. Defying the guidelines and principles of Misplaced Pages should not be called vandalism as such. It is merely inappropriate editing. Sometimes, inappropriate editing will indeed be vandalistic; but please be cautious that you do not use the word to accuse someone you don't approve of in an inappropriate manner, or you yourself might be called a 'vandal', though it will still be improper usage.

Putting a string of profanity into the George W. Bush article is clearly vandalism. Writing about seagulls at the help desk is merely silly. Don't call someone a vandal if they are only being silly! Tell them to get their act together, yes, but with the right words!

Deleting questions as you see fit isn't your prerogative. Good questions have value regardless of the OP's intent. --froth 04:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Questions about gulls are not good questions anymore, and it is my perrogative. JBKramer 14:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No, JBKramer, I don't think it is your prerogative (or anyone else's) to arbitralily delete questions from the RDs just because you don't like them. The question did not break any RD rules. It was a sensible question which just happened to be about seagulls. Gandalf61 16:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If we were all given free reign to exercise our so called prerogatives of deleting anything we didnt like, there would be very little of WP left! Im sure all your stuff would go quite quickly 8-)--Light current 22:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be best if people were to stay cool. Take a deep breath everyone, and remember to assume good faith. — QuantumEleven 15:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If the string of silly questions had been about, say, cucumbers (or masks, or whatever) instead of seagulls, then would someone be declaring that "THERE SHALL BE NO QUESTION ABOUT CUCUMBERS (or masks, or whatever) BECAUSE THEY ARE INHERENTLY SILLY!" and then bite the head off an innocent newbie who posts a question about the same subject? Things must be kept in perspective, and individual questions should be judged on their own merits. Deletion should be the exception, not the rule. A warning to a user who posts the same or similar question repeatedly as a form of trolling and disruptive editing could be appropriate, since the humor wears off rather quickly and becomes annoyance. Edison 17:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Seems an interesting idea. After how many posts would we post this warning to desist?--Light current 22:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Three in all of history is not too many. One a day is too many. The max number which does not seem lke trolling will likely be in between and is pretty subjective. We must also allow for the child who is infatuated with a subject; you can't always judge the age and responsibility of an editor easily. Deletion messages and postings to the user's page should always be civil and be worded objectively and impartially. It would help to have a well-wordsmithed standard message 1 through say 3 to be posted if someone decides to delete a question which appears to be trolling or failed attempts at humor. Edison 16:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Unilateral censorship

It seems we have a new censor on board who thinks he can delete anything he wants! I dont think he can! 8-(--Light current 21:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That's just silly. Sometimes, the community's response on this talk page can be demonstrated by simply ignoring silliness when silliness seeks response. Something along the lines of DFTT. --hydnjo talk 21:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

What? My statement is silly or the action of censorship is silly? 8-)--Light current 21:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Light current may be referring to this - the deletion of a serious, but possibly misguided, question and an appropriate response. Nothing to do with seagulls. Gandalf61 21:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Is that true Lc? I assumed perhaps wrongly that you were bringing up the seagull dispute in this section.--hydnjo talk 22:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well that one of 'em! 8-(. Hes not actually asking for advice just info on what it might have been.--Light current 22:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Diagnoses expose Misplaced Pages to legal liability - review Misplaced Pages:Medical_disclaimer for why we may not diagnose a condition you say you have had or do have. JBKramer 22:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that I followed up the deletion of that question and repsonse with a message to that users talk page, which he recieved, saying that we don't give medical diagnoses, because we don't, ever. This, like deleting gull questions, is not up for debate - but this one is not up for debate for obvious legal reasons. JBKramer 22:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

People who dont debate usually get steamrollered here 8-)--Light current 22:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a debate because it's already a decided question. Got a problem with the gulls? Get a consensus of users (not reference desk hangerouters) that I'm wrong to delete it, or get me blocked for deleting them, and I'll stop. If you try to solicit opinion RE the gulls, I might present my case there. Got a problem with the medical opinions? Get the Foundation, Arbcom or Jimbo to stop me, because nothing else will. JBKramer 22:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because a question is inappropriate doesn't mean we should delete it. On medical questions, for example, we can still say "That sounds serious, you'd better see a doctor immediately". Nobody will get sued for that advice, and it may even save a life. StuRat 22:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Which is why I placed that information on the experienced users talk page after deleting the question. JBKramer 22:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure we need to remove inappropriate questions of this sort; it's better, as StuRat says, to answer them appropriately. In this case, that means saying "see a doctor" and giving no speculation. If there were speculation, I would strongly support removing it. -- SCZenz 22:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed--Light current 23:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Leaving it in a public place invites speculation. Disapearing it removes the impetitus for someone who dosen't know not to speculate to do so. JBKramer 23:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Just chill right down Billy, its not that important! 8-)--Light current 23:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

JBKramer looks chilled to me. -- SCZenz 23:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No I said chill. Dont become ice cold! 8-)--Light current 23:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I think we should be able to expect question-answerers to follow the rules. If the questioner were a new user, and in particular were anonymous, leaving the question up would be the best thing to do. Since it was an experienced user, though, your action seems sensible enough to me. -- SCZenz 23:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I just removed 140 kilobytes worth of discussion page to Archive 14

The size of this talk page was really getting out of control--VectorPotential 19:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

refdeskbot

Surely the current activity of refdeskbot is wrong.. see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AMartinp23&diff=88532501&oldid=88528654

Currently because of this bot changes to discussions on the main page do not appear in the edit history. The bot operator admits other users have 'complained' and says it would be a simple matter to fix. However he says he requires consensus before making any changes to the bots behaviour and suggested trying here. (See User talk:87.102.21.223)

(Personally I note that the bot is operating incorrectly and should be stopped, but as it is only a minor niggle I should try the correct polite methods first before becoming angry.)

So please help. Thank you.87.102.21.223 01:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

By way of background, the previous discussion is archived here. I'd like to make it clear at this point that the bot is not malfunctioning, and is working perfectly as it has been coded (by myself, to the specifications given to me :)). Of course, the reason that the edits to the archives don't appear on the main apge history is that the edit is not beng made there, but on the archive page which is transcluded onto the main desk. This sort of problem with watching discussions is somethat similar to the above cited coversation (in the part of the bot behaviour it address) but is completely different in operation (previous proposal was to have transcluded archive pages from day one, this is to only move content off the main page and into archive pages after the full 7 or 4 days (depending on desk) - of course, this gives the stiuation that existed before the bot!). Just chipping in, based on my role as the bot operator. Martinp23 01:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Surely the archives should be for inactive discussions, (and any points made about previously inactive discussions should be made on the current talk page - with a link to the previous thread) - as it stands the archives contain still active discussions. This makes no sense. I understand the the bot is not malfunctioning as such - my view that the function it has been given is wrong. I think I understand that you know what the solution would be - it's obvious isn't it. (that is archive after 4 days I think and no transclusion). Could you give a link to who or whatever gave you the specifications so I can go and reason with them. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.21.190 (talk • contribs)

Any activity on the archive pages is well out of control of the bot. I don't see what you are complaining about. It also clearly states at the top of every archive page that new questions should be asked on the current page. I guess I should clarify that all discussion should be moved to the current page, but that doesn't really make sense because we don't allow starting threads without a question. There's no problem with continuing discussions after the question has been archived. In fact, the archive pages have always encouraged users to answer questions that weren't properly solved even after they were archived. That way any user to search the archives for an answer may come across it in the future.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  17:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Arranged marriage questions

The sections at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Arranged marriage and Misplaced Pages:Reference Desk/Miscellaneous#Arranged Marriage got a bit too chatty rather than factual in their responses, as the questioner himself noted. If a question appears to be clear trolling, it can be removed or ignored; if it's possible trolling, feel free to ignore it. But in neither case should the question be used as an excuse to have fun with the questioner. -- SCZenz 19:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SCZenz. If the questioner is serious then let's not screw around with him, please give a serious answer or just move along. If on the other hand you feel that it is a trollish question then I suggest that also you just move along; please don't feed the trolls. --hydnjo talk 00:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes but: If you believe its serious and give an answer, but it turns out to be a troll, then you have fed the troll! Game over. 9-)--Light current 01:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I suppose, but at least we're trying (aren't we?). --hydnjo talk 04:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And you're better off feeding it than becoming one.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If those are the only choices then, for sure! But can't we avoid both? --hydnjo talk 05:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Meaning??--Light current 22:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

LC: "Do not feed the trolls" definitely stands below the policy Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith, which states that we should "Assume good faith in the absence of evidence to the contrary." If there's no clear evidence that someone's a troll, and you help them, and it turns out they were a troll, you still did the right thing. -- SCZenz 17:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Just pointing out the gaping hole in the DNFTT approach! BTW I noticed that there hase been a lot of 'trumping' going on lately. Ie certain opinions trump other opinions 8-( --Light current 22:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a gaping hole, but I certainly agree that DNFTT must be applied with discretion. See Misplaced Pages:What is a troll#Bad faith, which says (among other things) basically what I said earlier. -- SCZenz 01:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the Devil's advocate always a troll?--Light current 02:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Missing Day

Has anyone else noticed but all the QAs for November 18 seem to have been excised. I'm not quite sure what to do about this, as I assume any reversion would delete all that has been added since? Clio the Muse 08:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh-oh. We've got problems. Give me a minute to find where it starts.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The bot probably disconnected half-way through its update. Computing and Mathematics were correctly archived, but Humanities cut off in the middle (the 18th was removed from the current page, but wasn't properly transcluded). I'll see what I can do manually for now.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, all of the questions have been transcluded and are now back on the desk. Thanks for the heads up. Now let's see what we can do about the other desks.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone might also want to look into the date headers for the 20th--VectorPotential 12:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I just checked them and they were all done correctly so thanks to whoever did that. 11 and a half hours until the 21st so let's hope the bot's back by then.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

French politics question disapeared

Where did the question about who would win the French election go? I think the title was something like Royal vs. Sarkozy vs. LePen. Are we not supposed to talk politics because these discussion systematically turn into wars? I can't find a trace of it. Thank you Keria 10:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Could your problem possibly be related to the question immediately above? If you asked on the 18th, it should be restored now. We have no problem with you talking politics : ).  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much, yes, I couldn't remember which date it was asked on. Just to clarify, I didn't ask the question, I was just looking forward to the answer.

Thank you Keria 12:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Funny answers

I remember seing a discussion on this page about whether we should keep or remove the funny (sarcastic ?) answers. Can someone tell me what the outcome was ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 12:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No outcome. Eight archives of discussion.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  14:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed there was no consensus, though of course we all agree that funny/sarcastic isn't a bad thing. Nevertheless, I do plan to remove comments that are excessively far off-topic or unnecessarily insulting to new users. -- SCZenz 05:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes and because I dont remember you being elected as sole arbiter of good taste, I will revert it if I see fit ! 8-(--Light current 22:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I was just wondering if the person who answers can put a mark (may be a smiley?), to indicate that it is not a serious answer. I am not sure if this suggestion has been considered (and discarded :-) )-- WikiCheng | Talk 07:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are those answers that are just funny, and those which are funny, but also answer the question. And some responses are so obviously an attempt at humor, it would be silly to mark them as silly. StuRat 07:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I always indicate my seriousness 8-|--Light current 22:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

See also Jack Dee--Light current 23:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion was an attempt to make theanswer not sound rude or serious. It is possible that a naive questioner will take a funny answer to be serious. On the other hand, if the question is Why is the black sea called black sea ?, the answer Because someone named it black sea would be taken to be rude, even if the answerer meant it to be funny. -- WikiCheng | Talk 08:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that such a symbol should be added when the answer can be taken two ways. StuRat 09:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

How do I propose this to be implemented? Is there a page for this? -- WikiCheng | Talk 09:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I have my own (brilliant) system! See User talk:Light current--Light current 22:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Ironically, the addition of such a symbol will probably render all funny responses less funny, or possibly unfunny. Much like the way that lots of exclamation marks make astonishing things seem more mundane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And funny things less funny. And unfunny things very annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Dweller 09:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't completely agree. A smiley at the end of a funnly line does not make it any less funny. May be a symbol at the beginning (indicating that what follows is supposed to be funny) does. I suppose that a smiley at the end of the answer should serve the purpose ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 09:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh sure Wikicheng, then of course we must have the "smiley police" and then of course the inevitable "rv" and then of course the "smiley police review committee" and... --hydnjo talk 22:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I thought that a small smiley placed by the person who answers wouldn't hurt. After all, nobody else but the answerer decides if the answer is supposed to be serious one or a funny one. But if you think that this is not necessary, let us not have it -- WikiCheng | Talk 05:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

We don't need rules and procedures, we need common sense. -- SCZenz 05:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The average questioner will likely not be falling down laughing as editors try to top one another with funny answers to his question. Imagine if two or 3 RLRDL's (Real Life Reference Desk Librarians) turned your sincere question into a subject of their humor traded back and forth like an unfunny TV Celebrity Roast. On the other hand, there are experts who contribute their time for this unpaid service which adds value to the Misplaced Pages project. A little camaraderie is perhaps their only compensation for perhaps $100 per day of donated expertise. It is more acceptable if the question is well answered first, and if the humor is not in the nature of poking fun at the naivete of the questioner. Such meanness or sarcasm hurts Misplaced Pages and drives off newbies, and might well be deleted. Edison 16:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

THe critcism of poking fun at the questioner is a fair one and that should never be tolerated. But Im not really aware of this happening much, if at all, now. If the question has been answered, then as in a real library, the librarialns can have a laugh at the subject (not the customer) I really dont see anything wrong in that. Of course I expect that some will say that we must be deadly serious all the time. Watch the space just below here for instance.--Light current 21:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If I asked the RLRDL a questin, she answered it, and then she and the other librarians started trying to top one another with inside jokes about my question, even if they were not laughing at me specifically, I would be offended. It would be gross discourtesy. Edison 22:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Impolite questioners

Please refer Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Science#The_Black_Sea. Can we have a better way of dealing with impolite questioners ? All of us are wasting our time in either admonishing the questioner or arguing among ourselves. I suggest that we put a one line (or a template?) stating something likeYour question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. As we don't like to answer such questions, this is the end of this discussion. Let us keep quite after this, unless ofcourse either the questioner rephrases his question or some kind hearted wikipedian answers the question in spite of the rudeness. -- WikiCheng | Talk 07:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think people would answer it anyway, making the threat meaningless. StuRat 07:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Answering in a rude way also provokes rudeness. –mysid☎ 09:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the proposed template is (I presume) also to avoid an escalation of provoked rudeness. While the questioner was rude, the first reply given may also have come across as somewhat unpleasant and thereby triggered the reaction. Believe it or not, the use of the word "hell" is consider profanity by some. What about a simple polite admonishment without stated penalty, something along the lines of: Please help to keep the reference desks to be welcoming places. Rudeness is not considered acceptable. The librarians working to answer the questions are all volunteers. Maybe also sprinkle in some soothing fragrances or such.  --Lambiam 14:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with likeYour question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. As we don't like to answer such questions, this is the end of this discussion. If you wish to re-ask the question please be polite. They can obviously ask again in a new section if they wish. As for the 'black sea case' the first reply was abrupt - but did give a link to the page. We are not here to write essays. This may be rude but the reply just confirms the initial impression of the questioner ie "Do my homework for me, I'm a lazy little brat".etc. Personally I'm sick of even attempting to excuse such people.87.102.36.82 14:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I prefer Lambiam's wording to Wikicheng's. Wikicheng's version claims to speak on behalf of all RD users (we don't like to answer such questions) and prescribes how other RD users should behave towards the questioner (this is the end of this discussion); both of these attributes are, in my opinion, unhelpful. Even better is not to have a template, but to respond to each rude questioner individually - templates encorage reflex reactions. Gandalf61 19:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

copied from the RD/S:

This would seem appropriate to describe all comments after the forth one (by JBKramer).--hydnjo talk 14:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC) hydnjo talk 22:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If you would ask your question in a polite manner, we may be able to help you!

Would this be any good?--Light current 22:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty simple really, if you don't care for the manners of the questioner then just move on. Your attempts to arbitrate manners to the many that will visit here will do as much good as giving the finger to a rude motorist does in reducing the number of rude motorists. Sometimes it's best all around to just smile at the rudeness, be thankful that you're above all that and move on. --hydnjo talk 01:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. IMO questions fall into two categories, v/v rudeness: Clear trolling, such as, "I hear you fucking retards don't have anything better to do than tell me how to give my girlfriend 20 orgasms an hour.", which should be either ignored or deleted, and all the rest, which, no matter how they are worded, we should either answer in good faith, or skip (for whatever reason - we don't know the answer, we don't like the way the question was asked, or whatever). Anchoress 02:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that ignoring such rudeness is the best way to deal with them. But do we ignore ? Someone is bound to reply to a rude comment / question and someone else feels like adding to it (moral support ?). After sometime, we have many comments and the questioner must be enjoying loking at them. My suggestion is to put a standard reply (that is why I suggested a template) after which everyone is expected to refrain from retaliating. But if somebody wants to answer the question in good faith, I am all for it. Taking all suggestions, can we make it Your question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. You are not likely to get any more answers. If you would ask your question in a polite manner, we may be able to help you!. In any case, this will not prevent the guy from re-asking the question nicely, getting an answer and then thanking with a I still got the answer I wanted from you f!@$ing b@$%^&*s... -- :-) WikiCheng | Talk 05:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiCheng please, there is no "system" to deal with impoliteness or rudeness that will benefit the RD. Adding layers of bureaucratic meddling will always be controversial and lead to unnecessary debate whereas ignoring any question that you dislike will not. We cannot and should not allow this very public face of WP to end up as either seen as pedantic or worse, made up of intrawiki squabblers. We've enough of that already. Please reread Anchoress' reply just above yours, it is as succinct as can be about this matter. There is zero energy required on any of our parts in overlooking rather than overseeing a question.

There is however something that we could all pitch-in and help with for the common good. Whenever we see an unsigned question, add the {{unsigned|username or ip}}template. This allows the rest of us to be one click away from information that helps in determining the appropriate response to an unsigned inquiry.

Oh, and please don't try to standardize the folks who are volunteering their time and effort to be helpful when help is genuinely requested. Give us at least in your mind, the ability on our part to reckon the differences between the obvious troll-baiters from the homeworkers from the genuine but uninformed from the "perfect" questioners; we usually know who's who all by ourselves. Please refrain from adding unnecessary overhead to our efforts to be a gateway for first-timers who are sincere but inarticulate. Our response in such cases is after all their first gauge about this project and a considered response (rather than a template) may make all the difference as to whether we gain a contributor or a detractor.

We really don't need a template for rudeness, a smiley for a joking response, a star for a "good" question, a ten section RD or any other substitutes for common sense. I do know the frustration of some who come aboard and feel that geesh - this place is really screwed up and I know just how to fix it. But please, just hang around a bit longer in order to experience the richness and diversity of it all; there are folks popping in and out all the time and you'll see that we have a pretty good handle on things without formality. Not to say that there aren't some rough edges but rather to say that discussion amongst ouselves has had positive results without formal stuff. --hydnjo talk 22:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. -- WikiCheng | Talk 04:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

OK back to you WC.  :-) --hydnjo talk 23:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

A question about a film

I have a question about a film. Should it be asked here or on the humanities section?

--Meno25 02:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Humanities would probably be best, and post to the project page, not the talk page of that section. Good luck! Anchoress 02:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

keeping the reference desk factual

Moved from the main reference desk and, partly, from THB's talk page. This is in regard to the question on the humanities desk about unjust laws (specifically, Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Humanities#Modern_day_unjust_laws,_institutions,_or_corporations_in_the_United_States?)

Hey everyone, can we try to keep our answers factual, please? Something like "many people consider the Patriot Act to be unjust, because they think it violates such-and-such fundamental rights" or whatever, would be better than THB's comment above. Reference desk, not discussion board. -- SCZenz 04:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The question specifically asked about "unjust" laws. That requires opinion. -THB 06:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it did not ask about unjust laws. It asked which laws are "considered unjust"... that could have been answered factually. Furthermore, even if a questions asks for opinions, it should be answered factually because that is the point of the reference desk. Please do not continue to use it as a discussion forum; the distinction between facts and opinions is very important. -- SCZenz 00:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:THB" & moved here by THB because it was a response to a comment here. -THB 02:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

We have to be more accepting of opinion, as many fields in the humanities, language, and even soft sciences don't lend themselves to strictly factual answers. For example, the precise shades of meanings of words can't be documented scientifically. StuRat 12:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by that exactly? 8-)--Light current 15:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Escorts

(Discussion moved from project space Natgoo 10:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC))

So this page is now to be used for giving advice on obtaining the services of prostitutes? A real class act. Clio the Muse 01:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That's miscellaneous, isn't it? It doesn't fall into any of the other categories. Or were you suggesting restricting the content of questions here? Marnanel 04:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm suggesting that there are questions which people should have the intelligence and sense of taste to ignore, if not remove altogether; and giving advice on escort services and prostitution falls among these. There are limits, even in your libertarian world; or at least I assume there are? Perhaps you would like to give advice on access to child pornography? Clio the Muse 06:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Clio, there's a method to my madness. I'm not going to address your indirect insults, but bear with me while I answer your queries.

First, I look at it like this: just as most parents would undoubtedly prefer their kids to get information about sex and drugs from them, I'd prefer for this guy to get his information about the sex trade from me (a sex-positive feminist with a lot of accurate information about sex work) than from one of the scumbag STD-infected serial philanderers on the escort review boards.

Second, the problem with judging people for answering questions on topics some people find morally reprehensible, is that such morality is completely relative. The 'child pornography' angle is a red herring, because it's illegal in every respect, unlike prostitution (in the English-speaking world, at least). But if we judged questions by their moral value, we'd be in a big fat mess, because it would introduce an unenforceable set of rules that would doubtless be used (as you have used them right now) to chastise good-faith editors for attempting to use the board for its stated purpose.

Third, it's a relatively legitimate question, possible to answer factually, asked in a neutral and correctly-worded way, and it happens to be in one of my areas of expertise. Therefore, IMO it's better to give a thorough, neutral and legitimate answer quickly, because that lessens the likelihood of the thread being taken over by the goofy chauvanists who love to have a yobbo party on these kinds of threads.

Fourth, consider that the OP (who may in fact have been a troll, as s/he was blocked for trolling shortly after posting) is - if s/he in fact asked the question in bad faith - getting more trollish glee out of your shrill protests than s/he got out of my factual answer.

And finally, if someone (you for instance) had decided this question was NOT legitimate, or was a poor use of the boards, and had deleted the thread (including my answer), I would not have protested, and I doubt anyone else would have.

--Anchoress 06:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I have clearly touched a raw nerve, Anchoress. I, too, am a feminist, and I am only too well aware of the causes and, above all, the effects of prostitution, and the forms of slavery that now accompany it. I can see nothing in what I have written that is either insulting or shrill ( a term, if I were so minded, I might be tempted to call insulting); I merely said, as a general comment, that people should have the intelligence and good taste to avoid this kind of question. I am sorry that you have taken this personally. I for one will not, nor will I ever, delete any question: simply ignore those which deserve to be ignored. However, I bow to your superior knowledge in these sexual matters, and will do my best to see that our paths do not intersect in future. Clio the Muse 07:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually you haven't touched a raw nerve at all, Clio. But as to the insult, I was the only person who answered the OP, and you said that some people should have the sense and intelligence not to answer certain questions. The inescapable conclusion is that I, by answering the question, lacked sense and intelligence. And if I offended you with my characterisation of your response, I apologise. But I am certain that the OP, if s/he read your response, would characterise it thus. If you feel you need to stay out of my way for your own self-preservation, I won't try to dissuade you (you wouldn't be the first), but you certainly don't need to on my account. I am neither offended nor angered by anything you said in this thread, and I certainly don't bear any grudges or feel a need to maintain distance. Anchoress 07:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My self-preservation? Despite your detached tone-and your denial-it's all too obvious that I have touched a raw nerve; I am truly sorry to have upset you in this fashion. However, I must confess that it was not just the fact that you replied at all that disturbed me, but the content of your reply. Some poor woman, who has managed to control her sense of disgust, is then to be sent packing by some creep because she does not meet his expectations. Now, that really is bad. And I am sorry, but I have to say this: for a woman to be giving such advice makes the whole sordid thing even worse in my estimation. Clio the Muse 09:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Lol, well, I promise you that you haven't touched a nerve, and I ask you to believe me. I communicate in strong language that's often mistaken for emotionalism; just ask my boss! I've come to grips with him several times when he mistook my Vulcan for Klingon. (I'm serious, email me and I'll send you his info and you can ask him. It's really, really true about me). Anyways, I truly, sincerely am not hot about this issue, I'm not the least bit irritated or touchy, and again I'm sorry if my characterisation caused you offense. My other words I stand by (despite your disgust), because they were offered in good faith and based upon my personal experience. Peace. (I mean that, I'm not just saying it and I'm not being sarcastic). Anchoress 09:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Pax vobis. There are too few intelligent women here to risk a serious falling out. Clio the Muse 09:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't like to see questions deleted. Whether the question is in poor taste or not is....a matter of taste. It is also irrelevant. I also believe that when a troll asks an answerable question, it should be answered, and everyone moves on, seems easier than deleting it. Behind a trolling question is a lack of knowledge about the subject, and I don't think the reason for asking a question is relevant. (To be clear, I don't believe this particular question is trolling at all.) LIke I read on another website today, if someone doesn't like a particular post, there's a little "X" up in the corner of their browser and they can click on it. -THB 07:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

A factual, neutral response to a question about a licit and legal service (in many parts of the world) is perfectly appropriate for the RD. Please stop insisting we share your offense, Clio - Anchoress handled the question very well. Natgoo 10:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not insisting that you, or anyone else, share my views on this or any other matter under debate. Try to think a little more clearly. Clio the Muse 11:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's how your comments, and your strawman of child pornography, read. I'm thinking clearly enough, thanks. Natgoo 21:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The fact that some people are enraged by sexual questions while others are perfectly fine with them to me suggests that we need a Sexuality Ref Desk, which the more sensitive readers could then avoid. StuRat 12:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

a question about Dedicated servers

(question moved to WP:RD/C#a question about Dedicated servers)

Tarka the otter section removed

I removed the section on "Tarka the otter" from the Humanities reference desk. It seemed to be a clear-cut case of a question calling for opinions, which was in fact not possible to answer factually, and it was asked by a user familiar with the reference desk and its proper purpose. The responses were likewise all discussion, which is again not what the reference desk is for. If I missed something, and someone can argue that this discussion involved actual facts, I will apologize for my error. -- SCZenz 16:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

SCZenz - there are other recent RD questions that call for opinions and cannot be answered with facts - for example "why are French women so much better-looking than English women" from Humanities RD Nov 25th. If you are going to take it on yourself to cleanse the RDs, I think you need to do it consistently. Gandalf61 17:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to do exactly that, and I've been trying to, but I had limited time over the holiday and I guess I missed that one. (I'll go back and look now.) Bear in mind that I'm only one person, trying to do the right thing as time permits—as with everything on Misplaced Pages, if you think I'm a good thing you're welcome to help me. -- SCZenz 17:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed. I'll try to survey the entire ref desk over the course of the day... but in general, if you see a problematic section I missed, you can bring it to my attention—or better yet, take care of it yourself! -- SCZenz 17:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

SCZenz - I won't be helping you in your clean-up campaign, as I don't happen to agree with your approach. However, my point was that if you are going to start a clean-up patrol on the RDs then you need to do it regularly and consistently, otherwise it could appear that you are acting in an arbitrary fashion and not treating all RD contributions on an equal footing. If you do not have time to patrol regularly yoruself, perhaps you should think about organising a rota. Gandalf61 09:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are correct. It was question prompted by the mention of otters somwhere on RD. I wondered if anyone had anything positive to say about it, or whether others found it as boring as I did! Of course I could have phrased it as: What are the literary merits and demerits of the book 'tarka the otter'? Would that be removed? --Light current 21:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

That would be an ok question. An even better question would be to ask for information on published criticism of the book. -- SCZenz 22:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh and also, I think you should get agreement from somone else before removing stuff!--Light current 21:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SCZenz. The question is more suited to a chat site than a Reference Desk. --hydnjo talk 22:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I think there's consensus among Wikipedians that certain questions are inappropriate for the reference desk; it seems inefficient to get committee approval every time I act on that consensus. A better way, and the standard for Misplaced Pages, is to get consensus that I made a mistake afterwards; if people often agree that I screwed up, then I'll obviously change how I do things. -- SCZenz 22:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Im not suggesting committee approval. Im just suggesting that you get at least someone else to agree with you thet the (any) offending item should be removed. You may be surprised at who agrees! 8-)--Light current 22:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Lc, Are you perhaps suggesting that you'd delete your own question if it were deemed to be inappropriate for the RD? --hydnjo talk 23:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If two consenting editors agree, then it can be removed. If I was convinced by another editor that my post was not appropriate, I would remove it myself. I just dont like having a sole arbiter. 8-( --Light current 00:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that you don't. However, in clear-cut cases it seems better to do the right thing promptly, and argue about it later if necessary; this is, after all, a wiki. -- SCZenz 00:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes one meaning of the word Wiki is 'quick'. But the other meaning is 'informal'--Light current 00:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Why exactly is it so critical to remove it quickly that this trumps any concerns about fairness ? Will the foundations of Misplaced Pages collapse if this question is left in for a few more hours ? StuRat 11:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

An advice question that I think might have been handled wrongly

I do not know if the reference desk community handled Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#sick dreams correctly. It seems to me that the question requested advice, and was responded to with personal opinions about what to do (including what was more or less medical advice) rather than facts. Any thoughts on how we could have handled this better? -- SCZenz 00:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Not strictly a medical question. But we could have treated it as one. Other homebrew recipies from peole who have solved this problem, I think are valid answers.--Light current 00:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not strictly a medical question, but borderline medical advice (e.g. to take specific chemicals to possibly help) was given. The point is, everyone gave what they thought should be done, and nobody pointed to any references or studies on the issue. Providing references is what we're about here, not providing advice. -- SCZenz 00:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Are vitamins classed as chemicals or drugs? I think this is a marginal case that could be looked at either way--Light current 03:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The meaning of dreams is nothing but opinion, so no strictly factual answer could be given. StuRat 12:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean you agree it should be removed?--Light current 22:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Me ? Heck no, I'm fine with opinions on the Ref Desk. StuRat 07:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Unhelpful responses

The following is copied from RD/S and is an example of what we should not be doing, being unhelpful:

==Sticky notes==

What is the adhesive on sticky notes? X (DESK|How's my driving?) 01:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Glue--Light current 01:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It is far better to move on to another question if you can't be helpful. --hydnjo talk 03:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

THe link links to all the glues under the sun and as such the answer is helpful (but not necessarily complete)--Light current 03:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also a quick and dirty answer is sometimes all a questioner needs and is better than no answer.--Light current 03:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

In this case the questioner knows that it is some form of "glue" as he has used the word adhesive in the question. Your response seems uncaring, flippant and unhelpful. --hydnjo talk 03:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It may seem so to you. But thats your interpretation. Ask Mac what he feels.--Light current 03:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The person asking the question isn't the only one reading the page. We want the ref desk to appear welcoming to those with questions. -- SCZenz 03:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That just aint gonna happen. Some Q&A will always be misinterpreted by someone (Take Popping collar for instance). It appeared offensive to DirkVdM (hence his relpy I assume) but apparently was not intended to be.--Light current 15:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

OH Jeez! Nos da!--Light current 03:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And good night to you as well. --hydnjo talk 04:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed from Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Photoshop Splice tool

I took this accidentally-unhelpful answer, and discussion thereof, out in order to make it easier for the question-asker to find the answer to his question. -- SCZenz 03:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Splice After looking see what you think. 8-)--Light current 01:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the link to Splice is precisely ZERO help in answering the question, and I find myself muttering "wtf?". --Tagishsimon (talk)

Yes well I shouldnt mutter too much. You may get locked up! Oh and BTW, what help is your staement to th OP?

In film technique or audio recording, splicing means to join the ends of two pieces of film or magnetic tape, for example, in editing.

--Light current 01:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Photoshop's "Splice" tool does not do that, nor is it a program used for film technique or audio recording. Aka your answer is still "precisely ZERO help in answering the question" as Tagishimon put it. --24.147.86.187 02:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

So? It was still an attempt to help WP:AGF. How does criticising me help the OP?--Light current 02:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a not too gentle reminder to you that if you know damn-all about the question's subject matter, you should not waste the time of the questioner and the community by posting fatuous links, nor patronise them with a comment such as "after looking see what you think" after directing them to a place which will not in any way assist their thinking. Even charitably assuming your good faith in making the posting, you were inconsiderate in not pausing to consider that your ignorance disqualified you from answering. Show a little restraint please. (Oh. And your "Toys and Prams" question is a churlish riposte.) --Tagishsimon (talk)

Please do not post personal attacks WP:NPA. Also see WP:AGF--Light current 02:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not post CRAP answers on the RD. Remember that AGF goes on to say: "This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying. Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, but instead that criticism should not be attributed to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice. Accusing the other side in a conflict of not assuming good faith, without showing reasonable supporting evidence, is another form of failing to assume good faith." You have yet to provide ANY explanation of your Splice edit. As normal, you're deploying dumb, and in context again patronising, bar-room lawyer arguments in the hope that we'll not get around to the substantive issue of your continued incontinent postings. --Tagishsimon (talk)

I believe the post in question has been removed from the RD, so there is no point in discussing it.--Light current 18:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Splice. THe connection seems obvious --Light current 18:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No. The DAB page had no information nor links which assisted in answering the question, yet your response suggests it would. Do you have such an insufficiency of honesty that you cannot admit that your answer was unhelpful? --Tagishsimon (talk)

Responses that reflect poorly on the RD

The following is an example from RD/S of an unhelpful response that reflects poorly on the RD:

==Castor bean==

I decide to eat a castor bean, will I die? X (DESK|How's my driving?) 01:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

look it up--Light current 01:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That response is uncalled for. If you don't intend to be helpful then just move on to another question for which you can provide a helpful response, --hydnjo talk 03:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No Im sorry! I linked the word in the OPs post for the OP to look it up. So the response was helpful! Check the hist!--Light current 03:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That's such bollocks. In NO WAY did a link to the DAB splice assist in answering the question about the Splice Tool. That's the nub of the issue. But hey, go on. Explain EXACTLY how the link assisted. --Tagishsimon (talk)

THe above convo is about castor bean. Please moderate your language-- its becoming quite offensive nd aggressive. Thanks 8-|--Light current 18:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyway Mac is a regular RD editor and knows me. He's not a newbie!--Light current 03:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Then he knows how to look the Misplaced Pages article first. Thus telling him so is, once again, unhelpful. -- SCZenz 03:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Call it a gentle chiding then. Like what you are doing to me! 8-(--Light current 14:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, Mac isn't the only one that will read that particular Q&A. A newcomer could easily become intimidated by curt responses such as yours and be reluctant to post his own question fearing that it might be deemed "stupid". --hydnjo talk 03:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And further, you aught not be modifying a question as you did by wikilinking as it adds a layer of confusion for the rest of the readers. If you would like to wikilink a word then do so in your response. --hydnjo talk 03:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If I add a link to a question or title, I try to say that in my response: "Click on the link I added to the title to see our article." StuRat 11:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I aint got that sort of time. If Id put " Look at link". Is that curt or OK?--Light current 14:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Or to paraphrase, you don't give a flying fuck for the opinions of others on the RD and refuse to contemplate the possibility that you are out of line in providing demonstrably bollocks answers which make the RD look like its staffed by morons. That's a contemptable attitude.--Tagishsimon (talk)

Please refrain from personal attacks. Thanks WP:NPA--Light current 17:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also one mans bollocks are another mans meatballs! 8-)

(unindent)Question: is there a relationship with madness and the historical views of normality?

I am doing a course on Abnormal Psychology, and have started to do this particular assignment, and I need a clue as to what it is asking for, as Im not sure if I understand the question, and dont want to write the assignment to find its not what they wanted at all - can anyone give me a clue?? thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kargus (talk • contribs) . (several responses skipped)

Or, you can take your assignment and your studies seriously, research on these works, read secondary materials to understand them better, and really learn rather than going for unsubstantiated rhetoric. Moonwalkerwiz 04:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

How does the above response benefit the Reference Desk project and Misplaced Pages?Edison 18:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The tone of the Reference Desk

Recently, a concern has been raised about how the Reference Desk has become too humorous, and there have been contentions that certain items should be removed. Please see User:SCZenz/Reference desk removals for a proposal on this subject. User:SCZenz and I would like to attempt to garner a consensus on this topic. Do you think admins (or other editors) should remove inappropriate comments and/or threads from the Reference Desk? Please keep the discussion civil. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I try to avoid these pointless debates, but on this issue you have my full support. Some of the comments posted on the reference desk are both puerile and distasteful. The real aim, I suspect, is to turn a serious point of information gathering, guidance and dissemination into a joke. It's not a display of intelligence and wit; just stupidity and tittering schoolboy arrogance. Please, for the sake of the credibility of the reference desk, and for all those who wish to take it seriously-both users and contributors-, remove all fatuous comments at the quickest opportunity. Clio the Muse 19:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Zoe asked to keep it civil. You spend most of your comment on insulting people. So should it now be deleted? How would you feel about that? Just in case you misunderstand me, this is a serious remark, not meant to piss you off, but to make an essential point. DirkvdM 20:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably going against years of established practice here, but I fail to see how the reference desk adds encyclopedic value. It's a time-waster- why don't we just ditch the whole thing? Friday (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Just in case that's a serious proposal, the point of the ref desk is to help people find answers they can't find by themselves. Either we can point them to the right article or if the info isn't on wikipedia we can provide it. And if so, we thus find out where there are any gaps in Misplaced Pages and fill them. I for one do that quite a lot. And that seems quite useful to Misplaced Pages. DirkvdM 19:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It does actually serve a useful pupose IMO--Light current 22:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just thought! RDs add an air of current Wikipedians views and POVs etc etc. Where else can you pick up this flavor at WP? They are worth keeping just if only for the historians in the future. They may see that were not all stuffy nerds but real people with real heart felt opinions! --Light current 23:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm very serious. I stay away from the reference desk but have dropped in a few times lately due to reports of problems there. I was rather shocked at what I saw. I suppose we must let each editor contribute in their own way, but I've not seen a bigger time-waster here than the RD. This is an encyclopedia- the goals of the project go no further. When I buy a copy of Brittanica, I've bought an encyclopedia. I don't expect that this includes a guy who will come to my house, hold my hand, and read it to me. Is it reasonable to expect a reference desk? Not in my opinion. We're an encyclopedia, not a forum, and not a place to get other people to do your research for you. Friday (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

To the contrary, my brother bought Britannica when his children were starting school years ago, and they had a service where the purchaser could ask specific questions about just about anything and receive back well researched answers. In some cases, they appeared to be from a library of previously prepared research papers, but in other they were obviously farmed out to a researcher such as a grad student or reference librarian. Not so different from what RD does in its best moments. If someone does not want to ask questions, answer questions, or read q & A, no one is forcing them to do so, so I can't see the validity of calling for the removal of a service whose value is demonstrated by its traffic. I feel I have donated considerable value to Misplaced Pages by answering questions in areas where I have expertise, and I have learned from the answers others have provided. Checking the relevant articles has demonstrated shortcomings leading to revision and improvement. Edison 22:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Your proposal to remove the Ref Desk entirely is off topic, so a violation of User:SCZenz's unilateral guidelines, and therefore subject to immediate removal. StuRat 21:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm shouldn't off topic posts be deleted according to SCZ? 8-)--Light current 23:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I assume that you're just being clever, and not trying to be a WP:DICK. If you're looking for a serious answer, I will note that this is the Talk page and not the Ref Desk itself; discussions about the nature, management, and appropriateness of the page are entirely on-topic here. Further, discussion is allowed a much greater latitude on talk pages anyway. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the Ref Desk is currently considered to be a talk page, by me, admin SCZ, and most others. Friday's topic is fine on this talk page, just not under this section, as it's off-topic for this section. StuRat 13:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually find the Ref Desk to be helpful in building the encyclopedia. Sometimes someone will ask a question, and it's obvious that they just need to be pointed at the search box and sent on their way. Other times, a question will point out a genuine – and sometimes a serious – gap in our encyclopedia's coverage. I've expanded, rewritten, or flat-out created quite a few articles as a result of Ref Desk questions.

Besides, at it's best, the Ref Desk provides a nice change of pace. Writing articles can be very passive. You suspect that what you're doing is probably going to be useful to someone, somewhere, at some time. Answering a Ref Desk question gives a nice little thrill of accomplishment—you know you've helped someone real, right that minute. So what if Britannica doesn't do it? We're trying to be better than they are.

Finally, the Ref Desk is some people's first exposure to the Misplaced Pages community. If we make it a welcoming and helpful place, then we can make a very good impression—the Ref Desk has the potential to be a strong recruiting tool for the rest of the project. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I am (all too well) aware of the present discussion. I would like to revive my guideline proposals that I started well before SCZ got involved 8-)--Light current 18:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Which are? (Sorry, I don't look into the ref desk talk page very often.) DirkvdM 19:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm I would advise you to do so! Many interesting thing are here!--Light current 02:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dirks response

First off, is this just about jokes or also about threads going off-topic (which is totally normal in theads all over the Internet) and 'bad topics' (examples below)?

Deletions night be appropriate in some situations, but there is no reason to limit that to admins. That would go against the nature of Misplaced Pages. But there would have to be rules that are clear and acceptable to everyone. And that is very tricky. I've come across quite a few questions that looked like trolling but turned out to be genuine questions that were badly formulated. A recent example is the one about which race was superior in the US in the 19th century, which turned out to be a question about how whites regarded the issue at the time. The most recent issue was a remark by me of how, being a Dutchman, I misinterpreted 'popping the collar' as 'pulling back the foreskin'. Which made me laugh, so I shared my mistake with the rest so trhey could also have a laugh. Which consequently got removed by someone who branded it a 'juvenile penis joke'. I can understand how it could have been misinterpreted that way, but that illustrates the problem. This resulted in a revert war and a block. But this is only a prelude. The ref desk could become a revert war zone.

Most importantly, telling people not to have fun here (because that's what it comes down to) will scare a lot of useful editors off. And enforcing that by deleting their posts is just not on (at the very least everyone invloved should be notified, but that would at least require a bot, but even then there is the problem that not all are logged in). The only useful thing that I have heard on this is asking people to leave the jokes until after the question is answered. Or maybe wait for a day. But as anyone active on the ref desk knows that won't work either. Hold a joke until the next day, when it is no longer appropriate?

One thing I have thought of is marking jokes and off-topic and iffy questions and answers, so people can skip that if they wish. But that also has problems. It would on the one hand spoil the fun of jokes and on the other hand attract the jokers. Also newbies won't know about it, so it won't help them. DirkvdM 19:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Gandalf61 s response

My personal view is that the only things that should be deleted from the RDs are personal attacks. All other contributions - whether they be facetious, irrelevant, subjective, rambling, incoherent, badly spelled, ungrammatical, critical, misleading, ribald, in bad taste, biased, cryptic, simply wrong or even about seagulls - have value and should not be deleted. However, I can understand that this may be a minority view. If there is a concensus that the RDs should be regulated, policed and censored then so be it. But for goodness sake please do it properly - come up with agreed guidelines and a process for applying them regularly, fairly and consistently. The current situation of ad-hoc and arbitrary (though well intentioned) deletions, revert wars and sniping and personal attacks on this talk page is very unsatisfactory. Gandalf61 20:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

There was a suggestion a while ago to not sign responses at the RD. I think this might be worth trying, i.e. treating the answer as part of the encyclopedia rather than as a personally identifiable comment (at which point WP:V and WP:NPOV would apply to answers, but not to questions). Most of the issues I've seen with these pages are the result of users treating the RD pages as a chat room, rather than as a serious resource. -- Rick Block (talk) 20:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That might actually be something viable, Rick.

That might limit Admins picking on individual users they dislike, but would also make it rather difficult to follow the discussion. If we don't know which comments are from the question asker or from a responder, for example, we don't know if a question is merely rhetorical or not. StuRat 21:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It would not be a discussion, but a single answer perhaps edited by multiple people in the same way articles are edited by multiple people. No ego involved, just a single answer. I've added an example below (which I've edited to make the answer a single answer). -- Rick Block (talk) 00:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a bad idea to me. Very few questions have a single, universally agreed upon, correct answer. For example, see . This worked quite well under the current system. However, since we each had different interpretations of the question, and therefore different answers, that would have resulted in an edit war, under your proposed system, if we each kept replacing each other's answers. StuRat 00:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Seriously, the approach here would be to preserve multiple answers. If you think the original answer did not address the question you'd add another answer perhaps prefacing both by the relevant assumptions. This would be a fairly radical change and I think it might take a while to adapt to this style of answering, but I'm certain the regulars here are plenty bright enough to figure out how to do this. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Among other things, this would destroy the sense of community we've developed here. Knowing who the trolls are (and who the regular contributors with useful things to say are) is quite important to that sense of community. StuRat 11:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is quite similar to the above idea that one of the functions of the ref desk is to discover gaps in the encyclopedia and fill them. What you propose is what should be done in the encyclopedia after all angles of a subject are explored. In this sense, the ref desk is the talk page for Misplaced Pages in general. DirkvdM 11:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, an aside: were it not for Zoe's post, I would have issued some blocks today on the reference desk. If certain users of the RD are unable or unwilling to get the message that they need to smarten up after being told repeatedly to do so, then tough decisions need to be made. Problems of this sort have been festering for months, and it is more than about time that some users state that the RD is not a "free for all" and that a reasonable amount of restraint when posting on the RD is ncessary. We are aiming for intelligent, useful, witty, human responses, not the sort that invites babysitting. Block for poor, childish behaviour. There is no reason why it needs to continue. Codifying rules to regulate the RD explicitly is in a sense a deferral of responsibility. We are smart enough to figure out what needs to be done. --HappyCamper 21:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Happy, could you give us some examples of the types of things you find inappropriate? User:Zoe|(talk) 21:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather not jump to blocks for childish behaviour; I'd much rather see the really off-topic stuff quietly removed. Mind you, I also think it's very silly for an individual to edit war to put back an off-topic and borderline off-colour remark that doesn't in any way address the question asked, and I agree that that sort of silliness is begging for an attention-getting block. What can I say? I just don't find Dirk's penis as funny as he does. This isn't a chat room, if you can't be funny while you're being helpful, then save it for your blog. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's about my penis now? This is getting worse by the day. :) DirkvdM 11:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ten, I had thought it odd why Dirk was mentioned, and it wasn't until I saw his block log that this issue is much different from the scope of what I had in mind. I actually had something else entirely in mind to address, but to answer Zoe, I am did not disseminate this because I felt it would be unfair to preemptively qualify something that has not happened. I'm jumping ship - this does not feel right to follow through anymore. --HappyCamper 22:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added my comments at User talk:SCZenz/Reference desk removals. StuRat 21:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah Happy, Ive respected you input over the last few months (years?). so I would be interested in which comments you would have issued blocks for. Im truly interested and have no bias toward you! 8-)--Light current 00:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I think the reference desk was originally to ask questions that you couldn't find in the encyclopedia itself. If this purpose hasn't changed, then anything that can be answered by actually USING wikipedia should just be deleted. Anything else should be kept, and before being deleted/archived, any relevant and correct answers should be transferred to the relevant articles. -- Chuq 07:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I would say most of the questions do have answers somewhere in Misplaced Pages, the problem is finding them. Misplaced Pages's search capabilities are rather pathetic, and new users don't know how to use Google to search Misplaced Pages. Also, if they don't know the name of the thing they're looking for, they really do need human assassitance. StuRat 11:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

People who don't know how to look things up will be newbies and deletion will confuse them (apart from it being extremely rude). Best to just give the right link, as is now usually done. Also, sometimes provides a link and someone else then finds out that doesn't actually answer the question. If the first one removed it, the newbie would be left out in the cold and we wouldn't know about the gap in the encyclopedia. This is a very general problem here. As you can see in the 'racist trolling' thread I mentioned above, even a whole bunch of people can have the wrong idea about something, but allowing one person make the decision will lead to loads of mistakes. There has to be some concensus about deleting a thread and the thread itself is the best place to discuss it. DirkvdM 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I think it's a perfectly fine idea to remove comments from the reference desk (or indeed, any other process) that do not belong there. Examples would include personal attacks, repeated stupid questions, and intentionally fake answers. (Radiant) 11:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

And who is to decide that then? If it becomes normal procedure for people to remove stuff according to their whim, then the ref desk will become an edit war zone. Some articles are and they don't see anywhere near the activity that the ref desks do. DirkvdM 12:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I suppose that most editors here are able to ascertain the nature of personal attacks, repeated stupid questions, and intentionally fake answers. I never said that people should "remove stuff according to their whim". (Radiant) 13:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But that may be the result if it becomes normal behaviour to delete other people's comments. Like I said, that already happens on many articles that see a lot of activity. But no article has anywhere near the activity that the ref desk has and if there is no easy way to detect a deletion then people can get away with lots of stuff. I sometimes suspect that a post of mine is deleted (by someone who disagreed or whatever) and even then it's too much work to find that out. I wonder how many of my posts have been deleted because I get into quite a few heated discussions. The thought really pisses me off because I can't do much about it. Make it normal to delete stuff and that will get out of hand. The only solution would be to devise a way to make it easy for people to check what has been deleted and I don't see how that could be done. DirkvdM 19:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I would call that a slippery slope fallacy. In the history, taking a diff between your last edit and the present one (that'd be the 'cur' button) makes it easy to see what, if anything, has been removed. (Radiant) 09:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

LCs explosion!

Yes Ahem! Sorry! Am I f***** invisible/inaudible? I suggested guidelines weeks ago and everbody said we dont need em. The evidence now is that we do need em. Many people have now said we need 'em. So whats the score? If people think we need em lets continue the discussion I started. (If you dont mind)--Light current 23:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 14#Draft guidelines for the Reference desks (draft #1)? -- Rick Block (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes thank you. How kind of you to find them for me 8-) Thanks--Light current 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Copy from where they were originally.--Light current 18:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Draft guidelines for the Reference desks (draft #1)

1. Respondents should address only the question, not the questioner.
2. Respondents should keep all answers 'on topic'
3. All WP:Civility, WP:Etiquette and WP:AGF rules apply to these pages

Light current - I think your proposed rules 1 and 3 are fine. Your rule 2 ("Respondents should keep all answers 'on topic'") is too subjective and open to interpretation for my taste. Is Dirk's "popping your collar" response 'on topic' or not ? Opinions differ. This is where we came in. Gandalf61 09:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You're talking about setting rules/guidelines, whatever they may be called. But the above discussion is about deleting anything that violates such rules according to someone, which is a totally different ball game (and quite frankly pisses me off). DirkvdM 12:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly #2 is bound to be open to interpretation. Perhaps it should say:

Respondents should try to keep all answers 'on topic' if possible. --Light current 18:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Example of a question without a signed response

This is an example of a question without a signed response. The question would be signed (like this will be), but the responses would not. So, here's the question. Why is there air? -- Rick Block (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see our article on air.

Discussion about this (not part of the example)

Any further editing would be edits to the response - without a signature! and without "separate answers" being indicated. It's not a discussion thread, it's a single answer. So, if the answer was not complete somebody else might come along and expand the answer by editing it. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Rick, it seems that you're trying to make response(s) into an article. Knowing as you do the difficulty in achieving consensus on an article with the full benefit of a talk page, I don't see that happening here. I consider myself an avid but random WP reader and am often influenced by the RD Q&As for direction and in doing so I've come to learn who's-who amongst the responders. To strip away the response sigs would take away most of the knowledge compass of the RD. --hydnjo talk 01:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm! And it would make some people uncertain about how to reply!--Light current 01:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, editing and rving would be rampant under the guise of refactoring. --hydnjo talk 01:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm buying this. The meat of most responses is generally only a sentence or two. If the rules were "treat the answer like an article" the answers would often end up as a simple "see some article". Where this is not sufficient, the answer would grow to the size it needs to be to fully answer the question, through multiple people's edits. This changes the focus from the responder to the response, and others reading the page later would revise the response only if it actually needed to be revised. IMO, this would be a much more "wiki" way of handling the RD. Sort of like how the FAQ pages have evolved. Would anyone mind terribly if we experimented with this approach on some page (I don't really care which) at least for some questions? To make it clear what's going on the response would need some introductory text explaining the approach, something like the following. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This response is using an experimental approach to answering questions where the answer is being treated like a mini-article. Please feel free to edit the response if you feel it is not sufficient, but do not sign your edits.

Have a look at the Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#generator to motor question. I don't see the richness of response to that question happening within the confines of your model. --hydnjo talk 02:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Per below. The idea is the OP gets a response from wikipedia, not from any particular contributors and, if necessary, converses with wikipedia. Responders do not communicate with anyone other than the OP, and clarify or extend a response by editing the previous response. Responses are subject to further editing (ad nauseum), questions including followup comments from OPs are never edited. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Initial response:

Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). See Electric motor.

• After first follow-on edit:

Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). See Electric motor and electrical generator. Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.

• After second follow-on edit:

See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.

Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.

• After third follow-on edit (from OP):

See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.

Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.

Now that you mention it the generator is more likely an AC altenator since it outputs line volatge at 120v and 240v. The current rating is ~33 amps and ~16.5 amps respectively. I do not have a circuit diagram and I have not opened it up yet so I can't be sure until I do. Since the length of the housing is relatively short like an alternator versus say a DC starter motor it is most likely an alternator. Becasue it is powered by a one cylinder gasoline engine which has a rope starter I was hoping to be able to wire the generator/alternator so that it would start the gasoline engine and the switch over to being a generator again. Since this is an obvious means of starting a gasoline motor I figure it has not already been done by the factory due to the generator being an AC alternator rather than a DC generator. Since the flywheel does not have any teeth (the replacement flywheels with teeth are no longer available) I can't incorporate a conventional starter. However, the rope housing can be remove exposing the clutch assembly to which I could possibly attach a belt driveand then use a conventional 12v DC starter motor. Any suggestions thanks. Adaptron 02:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• After the remaining follow-on edits (preserving additional question from OP):

See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.

Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.

Now that you mention it the generator is more likely an AC altenator since it outputs line volatge at 120v and 240v. The current rating is ~33 amps and ~16.5 amps respectively. I do not have a circuit diagram and I have not opened it up yet so I can't be sure until I do. Since the length of the housing is relatively short like an alternator versus say a DC starter motor it is most likely an alternator. Becasue it is powered by a one cylinder gasoline engine which has a rope starter I was hoping to be able to wire the generator/alternator so that it would start the gasoline engine and the switch over to being a generator again. Since this is an obvious means of starting a gasoline motor I figure it has not already been done by the factory due to the generator being an AC alternator rather than a DC generator. Since the flywheel does not have any teeth (the replacement flywheels with teeth are no longer available) I can't incorporate a conventional starter. However, the rope housing can be remove exposing the clutch assembly to which I could possibly attach a belt driveand then use a conventional 12v DC starter motor. Any suggestions thanks. Adaptron 02:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like Scrapheap Challenge. You could bodge (that is the British term they use, do I have it right? Oh, I see it is a pejorative - sorry); bodge on a starter from a small motorcycle with a belt and pulley. You will need some sort of movable idler pulley or tensioner so the belt does not keep turning after it starts or you could mount the starter on a pivot. Good luck!

Remember now I said when the rope housing is removed it exposes a clutch. since the shaft is keyed as a square rather than a slot making a pully for the belt or chain drive should be easy and without the need for a release. Thanks. Adaptron 02:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)