Talk:Warsaw concentration camp: Difference between revisions

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	: Also - par the course for ]es in the topic area (much worse prior to your edit in May - we actually were claiming 400,000 victims) - the Polish Misplaced Pages (just reviewed) is in a fairly good state - describing mainstream history (in detail) along the lines above, as well as describing the conspiracy theory - as such.] (]) 20:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)		: Also - par the course for ]es in the topic area (much worse prior to your edit in May - we actually were claiming 400,000 victims) - the Polish Misplaced Pages (just reviewed) is in a fairly good state - describing mainstream history (in detail) along the lines above, as well as describing the conspiracy theory - as such.] (]) 20:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
	: Nuked & replaced. I thought I'd stub it to begin with, but I ended up writing more prose (8319 chars) than what was there previously (5425 chars after KEC's cut in May) and close to the 8554 chars that were there pre-May. While definitely an off the beat topic in English (functioned for approx. a year, smaller than the main camps - a sub-camp part of the time) - there are actually not too shabby sources in English available. ] (]) 11:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC)		: Nuked & replaced. I thought I'd stub it to begin with, but I ended up writing more prose (8319 chars) than what was there previously (5425 chars after KEC's cut in May) and close to the 8554 chars that were there pre-May. While definitely an off the beat topic in English (functioned for approx. a year, smaller than the main camps - a sub-camp part of the time) - there are actually not too shabby sources in English available. ] (]) 11:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
			:: More detailed account of issues in the pre-nuked page - ]. ] (]) 09:55, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

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whatever

!! Unfortunately, the entry on Konzentrazionslager Warschau is highly misleading. No evidence exists of neither the gas chamber in the West Warsaw tunnel, nor of the claimed huge number of victims (who the proponents of the KL Warschau campaign refer to as "Polish Christians," victims of a "Christian Holocaust"). The "historical evidence" produced in the book by Maria Trzcinska -the main document refered to by those who seek to establish the death camp as a historical fact- is flawed and biased (e.g. naive calculations of how many Poles were killed a day during the Nazi occupations of Warsaw). None of the many historians specializing in World War II or the mambers of the War-time Polish intelligence, nor, for that matter, any of the civilian survivors of the war in Warsaw, support her argument or even take it seriously. Had a major death camp eqipped with gas chambers and operating on the scale similar to Treblinka (200,000 victims in slightly more than a year) been located in the middle of Warsaw, it would have been widely known both during and after the Nazi occupation. And, frankly, some knowledge of it would have survived, both in archives and in popular memory. Such is the position on the issue by the Institute of National Rememberance (IPN). In short, what existed of the alleged "death camp KL Warschau" was the concentration camp set up in the area of the prison at Gesiowka. The great majority of the victims were not "Polish Christians," but non-Polish Jews (Greek, Belgian, French, etc.) brought to Warsaw in 1943 as labor force to dismantle the remainings of what used to be the Warsaw ghetto. The total number of victims of this KL Warschau could have amounted to a few tens of thousands at the most, and most of the deaths were linked to typhoid. In short: Did something called "Konzentrationslager Warschau" exist? Yes. Did it look anything like the monstrous network of five "lagers," a huge gas-chamber and krematoria desribed by Trzcinska and other supporters? No. The play with numbers is telling. Sure, Warsaw suffered great human losses during the war, but the victims of the 1943-44 German terror, the many round-ups and killings in the ruins of the ghetto, as well as the civilian casualties of the 1944 Warsaw rising, should not be included in the death toll of "KL Warschau" - unless what one really wants to do is to conjure up an imaginary -indeed, nightmarish- entity and market it as a "historical fact" for reasons of political expediency (e.g. in order to accuse the liberal political and intellectual elites of compliancy in silencing "the truth" in a conspiracy-theory manner). The currently on-going campaign that aims at winning official recognition of the alleged death camp is an unfortunate product of the nationalist imagination, conspiracy theory thinking, and a political undertaking of the nationalist catholic right. It seeks to create a counter-narrative to the history of the Holocaust and foreground what is perceived as the unrecognized suffering of the Catholic Poles. In fact, and fortunately, it is--as of yet--merely a marginal artifact of local exoticism, and should only be regarded as such. For more information, see the website of the Polish Institute of National Rememberence, a state body that coordinates historical and judiciary investigations on events of the Second World War and the Communist rule in Poland: http://www.ipn.gov.pl/sled_klw_090503.html http://www.ipn.gov.pl/aktual_2707_klw.html

Do you question existance of the "small" gas chambers? Of the other camps other than Gesiowka (and I guess Pawiak)? Of the Pabst Plan? Of Pabst himself maybe? Why do you think mass shootings and the policy of lapankas are not related? What were the German-installed pump machines in the tunnel? Your links are dead. --HanzoHattori 18:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the page needs some explanation of the post-war controversies and the current IPN trial. Any volunteers? ] 02:06, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

I suppose, it should be mentioned, that the existence of gas chambers in KL Warschau is not proved.

And with no connection with above topic. Shall it be mentioned, that liberated during Warsaw Uprising part of KL Warschau was called "Gęsiówka". MWeinz

Well... it is mentioned, isn't it. ] 15:08, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Changed "Kozetrazionslager" to "Konzentrationslager" which is the correct spelling user:Barlotto

This kind of comments is usually entered into the "Edit summary" field. mikka (t) 19:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

One person saw KL Warschau operating and survived

Jan Moor-Jankowski a Polish born doctor ( about whom is a separate article in wikipedia ) during World War II while working for the polish resistance was ( by mistake ) arrested by the Germans and taken to KL Warschau . Since he was disguising himself as a member of the Todt organisation ( Nazi engineers organisation , i think ), he was released . He was the only witness of the camp operating . Also there are some evidence that after WWII communists used KL Warschau as a prison for those that opposed their reign ( while still emploing captive Germans there ). That's why the camps existence wasn't reaveled by the communists after the war .

Corrections

I made some corrections based on IPN information.

Some background information: IPN is professionally investigating Nazi and Soviet crimes in Poland and they are generally held in high regard by historians. In particular Nazi crimes from that time are usually reasonably well documented. Authors of many controversial books on WW2 crimes usually make very little (or none at all) actual research and simply reinterpret the existing data in a way that creates most controversy and sells most books, and usually they are not treated very seriously by mainstream historians. I'd say this is one of such cases.

One thing that still needs verification is Wilhelm Goecke which is claimed to be "the first commander of KL Warschau". Is it supposed to mean 1943 commander of the camp created in Ghetto ruins, or some sort of 1942 supervisor of extermination-related activities before the camp was officially created or what ? Taw 01:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Witnesses of the tunnel gas chamber

IPN claims there is only one eye-witness. From the IPN report :

Co do istnienia komory gazowej w tunelu w ciągu ul. Bema w aktach sprawy znajduje się jedna tylko relacja naocznego świadka F. J., który został przesłuchany w dniu 4 kwietnia 1989 r.

Translated:

As for the existance of gas chamber in tunnel at Bem Street, the evidence contain only a single relation of an eye-witness F.J., who have been interrogated on April 4, 1989

Taw 12:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

There are two new eye-witnesses found. There are even the gassing facalities remaning, as well as an other witness for a huge amounts of (unknown) gas storaged (there are several "partial" witnesses). Btw, this closing report was rejected by the state parliament, and the official investigation restarted. --HanzoHattori 13:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Now that's pretty interesting. So let's remove the part about there being only one witness, but I'd still rather keep IPN's estimates (probably number of victims being "tens of thousands", and the tunnel being possible but not certain) unless something moves on with the investigation. Taw 18:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Polish wiki article

It's larger and concentrating on the tunnel controversy, including the government moves including official investigations (appearently there will be a detailed end report this year).

http://pl.wikipedia.org/Warschau_(KL)

Guess anyone would use it here? --HanzoHattori 18:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelms

SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Goecke = SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Koppe ? --HanzoHattori 20:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit tag

What section(s) need copyedited? daveh4h 23:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Because my English is bad? --HanzoHattori 23:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Your English looks good to me. You are doing a good job. daveh4h 23:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

IPN - extermination camp memorial officially supported

W dniu 20 listopada 2006 r. odbyło się spotkanie przedstawicieli Instytutu Pamięci Narodowej z reprezentantami Komitetu Budowy Pomnika Ofiar Obozu – KL Warschau oraz Komitetu Upamiętnienia Ofiar Obozu Zagłady – KL Warschau. IPN potwierdził stanowisko popierające ideę budowy pomnika Pomordowanych w KL Warschau. W tej sprawie Prezes IPN skierował stosowne pismo do Komitetów. Przedstawiciele Instytutu poinformowali, iż w ciągu 6 miesięcy opublikowany zostanie szczegółowy raport, zawierający analizę i dokumenty dot. funkcjonowania KL Warschau. IPN zaprosił sędzię Marię Trzcińską do opublikowania swojego opracowania w ramach tego raportu.

They're late with their final report already. --HanzoHattori 19:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. If they ever do someone please take notice. --HanzoHattori 19:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

IPN book (tommorow)

W sprzedaży od 25 września 2007 r.

Tom składa się z dwóch części: studium oraz aneksów (dokumenty i ilustracje). Celem pracy jest opis i próba systematyzacji nowych ustaleń w sprawie KL Warschau, naszkicowanie tła historycznego i prezentacja najważniejszych dokumentów z akt śledztwa w sprawie zbrodni ludobójstwa popełnionej w latach 1943–1944 w niemieckim obozie koncentracyjnym w Warszawie. Ważne są również pytania, wciąż zadawane przez historyków i środowiska kombatanckie, a zwłaszcza kwestie wywołujące najwięcej polemik i sporów, dotyczące wielkości obozu, jego obszaru, przeznaczenia i charakteru, oraz tego, ile osób naprawdę w nim zginęło, czy w obozie funkcjonowały komory gazowe i krematoria, a jeżeli tak, to gdzie, oraz czy prawdą jest, że został założony w październiku 1942 r.

If anyone bought and read it, use it with the article. --HanzoHattori 02:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

No, really. Anyone? --HanzoHattori 18:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

missing sources

We need an expert to fix this article's content before fixing the grammar and vocab problems. Not only does the article not provide sources but it is especially missing sources for the controversial claims about an extermination camp and the number of victims. The German Misplaced Pages article de:KZ Warschau provides sources for both sides of the debate. --Espoo (talk) 15:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "extermination camp" has a specific meaning, which does not apply here; rm dubious unsourced claims & apparently fringe section". --K.e.coffman (talk) 15:05, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: - good find. Please read Under the Railway Line, London Review of Books, Christian Davies, 9 May 2019. I intend to nuke the whole thing - mention ot was a camp mainly for non-Polish Jews from 1943 to 1944 who were used as slave labor. I will also add a blurb on modern conspiracy theories. Much of our current article is within what is described as a conspiracy theory. Your thoughts? Icewhiz (talk) 20:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Also - par the course for WP:HOAXes in the topic area (much worse prior to your edit in May - we actually were claiming 400,000 victims) - the Polish Misplaced Pages (just reviewed) is in a fairly good state - describing mainstream history (in detail) along the lines above, as well as describing the conspiracy theory - as such.Icewhiz (talk) 20:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Nuked & replaced. I thought I'd stub it to begin with, but I ended up writing more prose (8319 chars) than what was there previously (5425 chars after KEC's cut in May) and close to the 8554 chars that were there pre-May. While definitely an off the beat topic in English (functioned for approx. a year, smaller than the main camps - a sub-camp part of the time) - there are actually not too shabby sources in English available. Icewhiz (talk) 11:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

More detailed account of issues in the pre-nuked page - User:Icewhiz/KL Warschau conspiracy theory. Icewhiz (talk) 09:55, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

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