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Revision as of 15:26, 29 September 2019 editMiraclepine (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users43,206 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 16:12, 29 September 2019 edit undoTyw7 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers25,141 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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**We should treat two IPs as two separate individuals. ♫ ] ] ] 17:26, 26 September 2019 (UTC) **We should treat two IPs as two separate individuals. ♫ ] ] ] 17:26, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
***'''Additional comment''', as per Banana Republic just below me, he is ALSO notable as the co-author of this book. And he is famous because of his relationship to his daughter, perhaps not among Swedish people, who are int he ebst position to judge his pre-Greta's fame notability. I had heard of him through reading a number of what would be considered reliable sources simply reading articles about Greta, so for me his notability is absolutely linked-in to his daughter. ♫ ] ] ] 17:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC) ***'''Additional comment''', as per Banana Republic just below me, he is ALSO notable as the co-author of this book. And he is famous because of his relationship to his daughter, perhaps not among Swedish people, who are int he ebst position to judge his pre-Greta's fame notability. I had heard of him through reading a number of what would be considered reliable sources simply reading articles about Greta, so for me his notability is absolutely linked-in to his daughter. ♫ ] ] ] 17:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
*] *] --{{unsigned|Miraclepine|16:26, September 29, 2019}}
*'''Keep''': While the subject of this biography clearly fails ] for his acting career, he seems to pass ] for co-authoring the book ]. ] (]) 16:44, 26 September 2019 (UTC) *'''Keep''': While the subject of this biography clearly fails ] for his acting career, he seems to pass ] for co-authoring the book ]. ] (]) 16:44, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
**In my experience, passing WP:AUTHOR usually requires at least two books with multiple published reviews. In cases where there is only one book, we usually either delete or (if the book is notable itself) redirect to an article about the book. —] (]) 18:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC) **In my experience, passing WP:AUTHOR usually requires at least two books with multiple published reviews. In cases where there is only one book, we usually either delete or (if the book is notable itself) redirect to an article about the book. —] (]) 18:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:12, 29 September 2019

Svante Thunberg

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Svante Thunberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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AFD nominated on behalf of 110.165.186.42 --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:24, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:AFDHOWTO, I'm requesting help with nominating the Svante Thunberg article for deletion (since I don't use an acccount).

My motivation for the nomination is that this article seems to fail the basic criteria. There doesn't seem to be any significant non-trivial coverage of Thunberg. I checked on the Swedish Misplaced Pages page and even there, all the links are just "databases" proving he's appeared in this or that stage show/movie/TV show, or articles about either his wife or daughter (both who are clearly notable). He's appeared in some productions but it's not clear to me that the roles he played in them were "significant" (per WP:NACTOR). I tried looking him up on Google and while I get hits for several news articles where his name appears even before Greta became famous, they all seem to be trivial mentions as "Malena Ernman's husband"). A google news search for

"svante thunberg" -"greta" -"malena"

receives 1 casual mention of another man sharing his name/surname complaining about traffic noise in Stockholm. ()

A google search for

"svante thunberg är" or "svane thunberg har" (i.e. "... is" "... has") -"greta" -"malena"

receives two mentions of other people sharing the same name, one inventor, another unclear, no mention whatsoever of acting.110.165.186.42 (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I also want to add that this nomination isn't about trying to "get to Greta" so I hope everyone will keep a cool head. Greta and her mother Malena are obviously notable, but I don't see a case for Svante's notability and I've made a good effort to find any evidence that he might actually be, but failed..110.165.186.42 (talk) 08:40, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This article had previously been nominated by User:Andy_Dingley acting on behalf of 110.165.186.42, but Andy withdrew his nomination.

I have copied some of the IP's comment from the old nomination:

  • Comment The sources in the article are currently as follows:

1) An article about his daughter where there's a trivial mention of him and his wife becoming vegans because of her. Not significant. Trivial.

2) an article about his daughter which mentions in one line her father was with her on the trans-Atlantic boat trip. Not significant. Trivial.

3) and 4) are from the Swedish population registry. Obviously trivial.

5) is a database of the imdb type, but for Swedish theatre "Dramaten", showing Thunberg has appeared in 3 2 plays, in one as as an extra and a choir member, and once as a character called "Ettan" in Peter Pan (unclear which character this is, but most likely not a major one. No mention of a character called "Ettan" in the Swedish Peter Pan Wiki article). Judging from this source, he does certainly not seem to have ever be an established theatre actor.

6) is a newspaper article not available online and unverified, with the title: "Åtta av 567 fick chansen", "Eight out of 567 people got the oppurtunity". It seems to have been an article mentioning he was one of few accepted either to Gothenburg university or Dramaten. Trivial.

7) 8) 9) Imdb and Imdb type entries without any further comment or text on the actor whatsoever. Trivial

10) 11) interviews with Thunberg's wife where he is mentioned several times. His wife (Malena) talks about her home life and mentions how her husband gave up his career to take care of the children while she's on tour (as an opera singer). The most signifcant coverage of the bunch, but still entirely in relation to his wife, and certainly not evidence he had a notable career as an actor.

12) Review (published in a Swedish newspaper) of the book he wrote with his wife and daughter. One mention of his "character" in the book, no further mentioning of him. It should be obvious that as it currently stands, the article does most definitely not meet WP:GNG and especially not WP:NACTOR or WP:AUTHOR.110.165.186.42 (talk) 13:12, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

--Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:26, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Environment-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:24, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:24, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Comment @Ohnoitsjamie and BabbaQ: notifying voters in the old AFD. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:30, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:34, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:39, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 18:39, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Are you going to make an argument countering the IP's careful analyses showing all of the references in your link to have only trivial coverage of Svante? I should also note that your previous withdrawal of the first AfD was out of process: AfDs can only be withdrawn when there are no opinions concurring with the request for deletion, and that one had two. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:26, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
J 1982 edited their comment to add this to an existing line: "combined with his appearance in television series Skärgårdsdoktorn". Thunberg appeared in a single episode of a soap opera. This hardly helps him pass the bar for WP:NACTOR. J 1982 should also address the fact that having appeared in 2 plays on Dramaten in 1991 is not the same thing as being an "actor performing at what is often referred to as the 'Swedish national theatre stage'"110.165.185.203 (talk) 16:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
How come another IP just randomly turn up and add a comment. Stay with one IP if you can not bother to start an account. J1982s rationale for Keep is based Thunbergs work which is a part of the sourcing. Totally acceptable. BabbaQ (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
"Stay with one IP" is a meaningless exhortation. I'm not using several IP's - the one I use changes automatically from time to time, outside of my control. Besides, my new IP is almost identical to the previous one, except for the last few numbers. It's a complete non-issue. Don't attempt to make it into one. Let's discuss Svante's notability. "J1982s rationale for Keep is based Thunbergs work which is a part of the sourcing". I've gone through the sources with a comb and presented the results of that in a comment. There is just no non-trivial significant coverage of him and his acting career does obviously not meet WP:NACTOR. I've proven this with actual references to each individual source quoted in the article, while you've only made vague references to "it's in the sources", so far. 110.165.185.203 (talk) 00:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Delete unless multiple new reliable sources turn up with significantly greater in-depth coverage of Svante himself than the ones analyzed in the nomination. I tried looking myself but didn't find them, presumably because (if they exist at all) they're hidden by all the articles about his notable relatives mentioning but not going into depth about him. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:51, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Alternatively, redirection to Scenes from the Heart would also be acceptable, if the article on the book is improved to use enough third-party sources to make its own notability clear. (I suspect the book is notable but the article on it in its current state does not reflect that.) Despite a lot of heat on this AfD, it still is the case that nobody here has provided evidence for Svante having separate notability from the book or other family members. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:48, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Keep - article subject has an established career in the field of acting with plenty of notable roles. Provided in sources. Also per WP:GNG.BabbaQ (talk) 11:01, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
    BabbaQ, IP has said that his theater's role are not notable and he hasn't won any awards so WP:NACTOR cannot be used here. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 11:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
    "plenty of notable roles" - what do you base this on? Obviously not the actual sources in the article. Please name some of these notable roles!110.165.185.203 (talk) 15:51, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Delete No reliable sources for notability. Keep votes seem only to be based on the personal opinions of those editors. Known to the general public only through wife & daughter. With the enormous coverage given to his daughter at this time, it's especially and principally important that her father isn't baselessly name-dropped into English Misplaced Pages with an article of his own. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - This is not a !vote on Greta Thunberg. If Svante is mentioned in the same sources as Greta or not is completely irrelevant. Its POV at best and must be given little weight at closing.BabbaQ (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I, for one, do not know what is meant by this comment, finding nothing here about that (Svante is mentioned in the same sources as Greta) which would impact on this deletion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:03, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Svante Thunberg is currently 239 words long. Given redundancies, not all of that would even be merged. Here is a sample of featured articles that have more than 300 words describing the subject's relatives: Lisa del Giocondo, W. E. B. Du Bois, Emmeline Pankhurst, Marjory Stoneman Douglas, Kate Sheppard, Josephine Butler, Macfarlane Burnet. Etcetera. These are biographies of long lives; in a very young person's bio parents will play an even larger proportionate role.

RE: "Again editors seems confused, merging Greta and Svante as one person." Don't be a dick. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:45, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

BabbaQ, on the contrary, merge is definitely an option. See Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes#Celebrities. That said, Dennis, I think it's unfair to say you don't want to be "sealioned". AfD's are supposed to be discussions, as I understand it. It feels weird to me then that you state you are essentially not interested in discussing your vote.110.165.185.203 (talk) 01:46, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
The pattern of haranguing an editor as to whether or not they really meant what they said is tiresome and unproductive. The need to bat away uncharitable misinterpretations of our words, like we don't understand the father and daughter are two different people, is exhausting, and it annoys everyone trying to read the discussion for the purpose of getting on with building an encyclopedia. The kind of back and forth that generates doesn't move an AfD towards its ultimate outcome, or help anyone decide what option they support. It bloats the discussion with no benefit. It doesn't help the closer make their decision. It wastes everyone's time.

It's helpful to reply to a !vote if your reply contains information that isn't already present on the page. If you're repeating arguments that were stated above the !vote, you're sealioning. The editor can be presumed to have read those arguments, and if they chose the opposite option, it's tacitly clear that they found those arguments unconvincing. Nobody needs to check back to be sure they're sure that they're sure they were unconvinced. Take the hint. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Persons should not be merged. And article length shall not decide. Even if the Greta Thunberg article just consisted of a few words, it should be accepted. J 1982 (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
They should not be merged without justification. If we go for delete there is plenty of justification here as we often go into some detail about people's unnotable parents. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:15, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong keep Notable daughter who is managed by notable father for a cause that is probably the most notable one of the current era. --User:Harnad (talk) 18:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "managed by" is not an inheritance criterion such as "sired by". Neither is "a cause that is probably the most notable one of the current era". If managing the 16-year-old generator of a global movement critical to the survival of all inhabitants of the planet is not notable, it is hard to imagine what is. I will close with a quote from your WP user page, David: "Misplaced Pages editor (n.) Someone who will not leave a burning building until you show them the newspaper article documenting how many people were killed by the fire." --User:Harnad (talk) 15:15, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Keep, notable person, and notable daughter as well, worthy of inclusion. Davidgoodheart (talk) 19:55, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Davidgoodheart, how is he notable? As the IP pointed above, there are no sources that would prove Svante is notable. Also, notability is NOT WP:INHERITED. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 20:04, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Tyw7, Point well made, thanks for pointed that out.
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