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Starfleet Judge Advocate General

Starfleet Judge Advocate General (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This is a synthesis from primary sources, i.e. original research. Does it have a place here if rewritten to fix that? Maybe, maybe not; I'd call it fancruft and leave this to Memory Alpha, but that's an aside. This article is OR and needs to be referenced from reliable secondary sources or deleted. Guy (Help!) 23:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - all the assertions there are lifted straight from dialogue; there's no supposition, extrapolation or synthesis on this particular page. Primary sources (i.e. episodes) are listed rather than the Encyclopedia secondary source (which corroborates these statements in the various episode, character and JAG entries) to give readers a more useful link to related material. --EEMeltonIV 23:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - There have been a lot of Star Trek nominations that have seemed unfair. This is not one. The coverage adds nothing beyond what would be contained in individual episodes. Misplaced Pages cannot have an article about every position ever suggested to exist in every fictional universe. What are we to have next- an article on those with responsibility for cleaning toilets in the Star Trek Universe? The subject is not notable even within its own fictional universe. WJBscribe 23:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • An entier data episode (wether he is sentient or not) was based on this organizations existance. The entire TOS episode of Kirks's court martial involves this organization. One of the movies have the judge advocate demoting admiral kirk back to captain. You call that non-notable? --Cat out 00:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I call it falsehood. In Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home it is the Federation President that demotes Kirk. There is no mention of a JAG whatsoever. You can find the exact dialogue at §267 here. Uncle G 01:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Article is in pathetic shape. AFD is not part of the Article improvement drive process. Judge Advocate General was one of the first branches of starfleet to be established far into 1960's TOS era. --Cat out 23:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete-Per WJBscribe--SUIT 23:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP: Very clearly established in the episode "Court Martial" and The Measure of a Man where a Starfleet Captain flat out is addressed as "The JAG Officer for this Sector". Nominator should not be so quick to nominate these articles for deletion as was the case on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Starfleet Security. nominated by the same person who is proposing this one be deleted. -Husnock 00:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  Whether or not Guy should have nominated other pages is not relevant to this AfD. I don't think there is much doubt the topic exists. I think what I need to be convinced of is that it is notable? An article on Law in Star Trek might be very interesting. But why does this particular legal office need its own heading. WJBscribe 00:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  It is generally considered a negative sign if someone starts mass nominating related articles for deletion frequently yelling OR, Fancruft, <type reason here>...

  Well, star trek law is a very vast and smudgy area. This article is trying to focus on a branch of starfleet more than star trek law. Starfleet is obviously a notable fictional organization and this is its notable branch. The branch affected canon a great deal, lots of very notable events. We obviously have a stub that needs to be expanded. :)

  --Cat out 00:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  Yes, indeed, "Law in Star Trek" would be fun to write. And I am still trying to have fun on this site...trying, anyway. -Husnock 00:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  Oh, you want to have fun? You must be looking for Uncyclopedia. Chris cheese whine 00:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  No, Nebor, I'm not looking for anything like that, so put the childish remarks back in the toy cheast. I've actually written some major articles for this site that this AfDers could never hope to touch. Have you read any of them? Check ouy my user page, most of them are listed there. -Husnock 00:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That's because the Schutzstaffel isn't a non-notable plot-devices made up for dramatic effect. Just a thought. Consequentially 02:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Screw WP:OR, tell me how this meets WP:FICTION or WP:WAF? Articles on fictional topics must be writtne in an out-of-universe perspective, with reference to the creators, real-world implications, and so on. This article gives a quick two-word reference to its fiction, and then charges head-first into all the plot summary. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what is suggested by the prose examples offered by Misplaced Pages policy. WP:FICTION also reminds you that minor characters, groups, and so on belong on a list of merged articles, not their own piece of wiki-realestate. Oh yeah. And using nothing but plot details from episodes you watched to establish what you believe are the norms for said organization is original research. Consequentially 00:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  No it is proper citation. Judge Advocate General of starfleet is directly addressed as such. The only thing I interpreted from the show is the existance of "Starfleet Judge Advocate General" as per exact quote. Article is a freaking stub, don't you WP:FICTION me. --Cat out 00:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Pft. A quick Google search for "'Starfleet Judge Advocate General' -wikipedia" gives 63 hits. The first page gives us non-canon fancruft, non-canon fancruft, non-canon role-playing rules, the Star Trek wiki, a (friggin hilarious) MySpace page, canon fancruft, non-canon fancruft, a Star Trek glossary listing, and more non-canon role-playing rules. How do you plan on un-stubbing it to WP:FICTION standards without using bad sources, or nothing but more episode listings? Furthermore, in an out-of-universe frame, how does the SJAG meet notability? Consequentially 00:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: ZOMG! JzG proposed another Star Trek article for deletion, how awfully evil and deletionist of him. I mean, who'd want to delete this? Apart perhaps from him. And everyone else that's commented "delete" above. Oh, and me. Beam it over to the bit bucket, per more than I'd care to mention. Chris cheese whine 00:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Your comments merely speak to what you think of this article and of those who contributed to it. Bring on more comments about Coolcat and myself, we'd love to hear them. -Husnock 01:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete this type of article seems very... how should I say it.. crufy. In my opinion, articles on star-fleet ranks fictional organisations should be on star-fleet wikis, except when there is a lot of real-world impact. ---J.S 00:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  Good thing this isn't an article about Starfleet ranks, its an article about a major branch of Starfleet mentioned several episodes and numerous books. -Husnock 00:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  Sarcasm aside, my comment stands. Can you show any verifiable real-world impact as reported by a reliable secondary source? ---J.S 01:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  Sorry to be a pain but I'm having trouble with your it is a major branch of Starfleet, therefore it is notable argument. Starfleet is notable. Coca cola is notable. The manufacturing department of Coca Cola is clearly an important branch of it but is not notable enough for its own article. The same logic seems to me to apply to sub-departments of Starfleet. WJBscribe 01:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  (edit conflict where I repeat WJBScribe's point)Well, it's not a "major branch of Starfleet," because Starfleet doesn't exist. It's a plot device in a work of fiction. What I'm trying to figure out is how important a plot device it is. Is it merely a designator for the characters who are introduced when the plot calls for a court-martial or is the organization itself involved in the plot? JChap2007 01:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  The former usage. It does, unlike Starfleet Security, warrant an entry in the Star Trek Encyclopedia, mind. Morwen - Talk 01:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Question (and probably a stupid one) The plot of a Star Trek episode calls for a court martial. A JAG officer is sent in to conduct the court martial. Is there anything else to say about this subject (from reliable sources, that is)? JChap2007 00:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP per adove--9ers 01:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete As much as I hate to invoke the word WP:CRUFT, Misplaced Pages does not need articles on Starfleet Warp-Manifold Pressure Washer Memory Alpha is thataway... --RoninBK_ETC 01:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per User:Consequentially. What can you say other than "plot device used by Star Trek writers so they can can have courtroom drama scenes. --Calton | Talk 02:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  You could actually say an enourmous deal. I like the idea of RDing to Law in Star Trek and writing a great massive fascinating article. At least, until certian users try to AfD it! -Husnock 02:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Twenty-seven hits. Good luck. I think the phrase your looking for is not a friggin chance. Consequentially 02:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

They seem pretty strong hits though given that most are from the legal and not Star Trek Community. References amongst them to a number of law journals. e.g. Journal of Criminal Justice and Popular Culture, Volume 8, Number 1; The University of Toledo Law Review, Volume 24, Number 1. Also a chapter in the book: PRIME TIME LAW FICTIONAL TELEVISION AS LEGAL NARRATIVE by ROBERT M. JARVIS & PAUL R. JOSEPH, EDITORS. Looks like a much firmer basis for an article. They're very narrow search parameters. Surely Husnock should be encouraged in his wish to write a potentially encyclopedic piece, rather than merely shot down automatically? WJBscribe 02:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I only see one of those articles, but I'm willing to accept the existance of others. I chose the search parameters because it happened to be the title of the redlink, so it was easy. Mr. Husnock is more that welcome to look for the right kinds of sources and what not, I'm just expressing my skepticism. Consequentially 02:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Pagemove and expand at Law in Star Trek (leave redirect). There is very little verifiable content regarding the current article's topic, and less-to-none in independant secondary sources. There is no shortage of content available regarding the broader topic, including plenty in independant sources, including some from the real-world legal profession itself. Everyone wins. Serpent's Choice 06:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep — A bad state is certainly no reason to delete; as it stands now it is sourced, of course we should have an article on everything.. but for this? Yes. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 12:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and go ahead and start up a page at Deletion Review. I would be vastly interested in an explationation of why the sourcing and tone of good Star Trek articles such as the Federation and even somewhat obscure things like Starfleet ships are so properly documented and don't rely on OR and speculation, while there are articles such as warp drive and the laughably non-notable Trek MUSE that don't even bother to try to meet Misplaced Pages standards. The former are admirable articles. The latter are fanon speculation. No one has a vendetta against Star Trek. There is no Anti-Star Trek cabal. The articles do not meet the policy. The repeated, willful refusal of certain parties to admit this and instead insinuate bad faith in nominating, voting, and motive is only encouraging us to find MORE article that fail the policy. Either fix these articles with proper sourcing or justify how this article requires a seperate article from a "Starfleet" article. --Elaragirl 14:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  There is probably not an "anti-Star Trek cabal" of Misplaced Pages users who want these things gone, I will give you that. But, I feel strongly that there are personal feelings mixing in with some of the AfD nominators stretching back to initial edits on Fleet captain (Star Trek) where material was removed, over and over again as "unsourced" even after sources were provided. The same user who was doing this then nominated Warrant Officer (Star Trek) for deletion and did so in a quick and quiet fashion, not bothering to contact or talk page those who had worked on the article. When the deletion was overturned, its parent article, Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia was also nominated for deletion and the nominator openly stated that they were upset that Warrant Officer was still around and would therefore nominate its parent article for deletion . When that deletion attempt failed, one of the users involved followed my edits to Starfleet Security and, after I made an honest and innocent attempt to imporve the article, I was slammed on the talk page in a highly uncivil tone, my edits called "crap" and "hogwash", accused of making up sources, and of committing a copyright violation. When all this is overturned on the Admin Norticeboard, less than 5 minutes later Starfleet Security is up for deletion. Then, after User:Coolcat makes the best case he can, the AfD nominator of that article in turn nominates this one for deletion, almost as an effort to get Coolcat stirred up even more. Three years ago when I joined this site, something like this would NEVER have happened. People would have talked it out on talk pages instead of trying to get things deleted to upset other users. I guess times change but I simply don't think this is right. See this edit for a summary of these concerns on another user's talk page. -Husnock 20:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per answer to my question above. There is nothing to say about Starfleet JAG except that when the plot of an episode calls for there to be a court-martial, there is a character identified as a member who runs it. JChap2007 15:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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