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India: History Unassessed

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Archives: 1

Classification of Periods

Can't we classify the periods under the usual heads of Ancient, Medieval and Modern?

Yes, that would be wonderful--Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, which held its ground 07:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Photographs

Can someone please put nice pictures of Chalukya and Rashtrakuta architecture. I see only Chola empire relatred pictures proliferated.

Dinesh Kannambadi

Please, somebody read the first sentence and rewrite it so that it makes sense. I would but I have absolutely no idea what that's supposed to mean. Foxmulder 02:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

How come many of the images were recently removed?

Hmm, the new intro is a bit crappy isnt it?

---

Could you guys (and girls?) pretty pretty please learn proper english? Or ask a native speaker to check your grammar? --84.159.137.29 00:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Spurious edit

This edit (which was never reverted) looks like some kind of POV-pushing, but I don't know enough of the context to tell what the point is, or if there is any point. Tupsharru 21:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeh, ill change it now. Vastu 08:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"Epic Age"

While cleaning up links to disambiguation pages, I created a stub article for "Epic Age," described on the disambiguation page as an era in Indian history. It is referenced from the Punjab region page as such, but I don't find it mentioned on this page, so it must be there under another name. Could someone with more knowledge in this era take a look at Epic Age and make it "right?" Thanks. John 22:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Where are the Achaemenids and Alexander the Great?

-Shouldnt there be separate sections, devoted to both the Achaemenid empire and the invasion of Alexander the Great? These were key events in ancient northern India's history, the former, as one of its first foreign military invasions and the second as the beginning of contact between both India and the West. After all, India was described by Herodotus as the Persian Empire's wealthiest province. The Jewel of the Persian crown, one could cleverly put it. At least, I think they should. -]

Well, it was mentioned in other sections, but yeah, it probably looks better as an era of its own, afterall, the Kushans, etc, got their own section. Vastu 08:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Vijayanagara Empire now under Late Middle Kingdoms of India section

need discussion on this, if necessary...

Pizzadeliveryboy 13:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, as a point of discussion, the Vijaynagara empire was formed later than those mentioned in the late middle kingdoms, around the time of the Delhi sultanates, which is why it was located there, even if the title wasnt perticularily fitting - but I guess it dosent really make too much of a difference. Vastu 08:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Article changes

I am unsure why it is worth showing a map of alexander's empire in an Indian history page, or why much more relevant pictures have been removed. This is afterall about Indian history, and going by the style of other articles, should not devote presious picture space to an empire that only interacted with India for a short time, and conquered outer fringes of north India, when that space could be more relevently devoted to something Indian. Vastu

Indonesia

Pizza, I changed Bali to Indonesia for the following reason - it is irrelevent that Bali was the first kingdom in the Malay area, since there has been a number of Indianised empires there, not least of which, the Srivijaya and Majapahit - in addition to this, we are talking about cultural influence on modern areas of the planet, dispite the deliberate use of the name 'Persia' instead of Iran, which is like the difference between 'Hindustan' and India - this gives the unmistakable impression that the only place Indian culture had any major effect on Indonesia is the modern island of Bali. Ill leave the rest to you, I cannot see why you would want to refer to the Bali kingdom instead of the modern nation of Indonesia. Also I cannot understand why you then didnt, under this logic, painstakingly describe the ancient kingdoms of South East Asia, instead of the modern political entities of Burma, Cambodia, etc, which include areas not limited to the extend of the Khmer Empire, etc... Vastu 11:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

IAM

Hi:

It is necessary to mention the existence of the Indo-Aryan migration as an accepted theory of how Vedic civilization began. I know this is a very volatile and sentimental (and hence controversial) topic, but there exists enough linguistic proof of the fact that there has been a migration from C Asia and the Cacausus, lying just to the west, into Iran and eventually into India. Which culture eventually dominated whom may be a topic of debate, but the fact that this phenomenon occured is indisputable.

Pizzadeliveryboy 17:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it accepted? Many scholars seem to challenge it. Like the guy who edited it said, mention it is a theory. Vastu 08:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The theory is being used as a propaganda tool in India, so, sure, you'll find all sorts of polemics about it. If you look at it with a cool head, it's not a big deal. Nobody claims "mass migration", and much of Indian culture may well be rooted in the IVC, so nobody claims Indian culture was imported from Central Asia or anything. Just the languages had to get there somehow, didn't they? This may have been a tiny superstratum, like 5% of the indigenous inhabitants of Gandhara installing itself in say 1800 BC. The debate should be about how this linguistic influence manifested itself without dragging it onto political turf all the time. The Indus valley was invaded all the time, by Greeks, Persians, Sakas, etc. etc, why is this particular instance such a big deal? dab (ᛏ) 19:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You are preaching to the saints here, but the reason so much fuss is probably made out of this is because there are still political parties, etc, that promote some kind of Dravidian/Aryan divide, even today, making it all the more important that people are correctly educated. Vastu 20:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Durrani Empire

-Some mention of the Duranni empire and its incursions into India and Pakistan must be made in the Post-Mughal section. They were one of the key invaders vying for control after the death of Aurangzeb. They quarelled with the Marathas, Sikhs etc. They even occupied Indian controlled Jammu-Kashmir for a while -User: Afghan Historian

Yes, although many other invaders do not have their own sections, including the Huns. Vastu 08:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Some of the information about Ahmad Shah Durrani is confused with Nadir Shah. For example, Koh-i-Noor was taken by Nadir shah (after his invasion of india). After the assassination of Nadir Shah in 1747 it came into the hands of Ahmad Shah. Bidabadi 16:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Mahajanapadas

This period is perhaps one of the most important in asian or world history in terms of the literature, philosophy, religion and art that it produced - perhaps an attempt should be made to make sub-titles for some of the more powerfull kingdoms and republics, such as kuru, etc, to emphise this. Vastu 22:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

stub

A new stub - Template:India-history-stub may be used for suitable articlesPizzadeliveryboy 18:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Pseudo-history

First sentence of the inrtoduction: "The history of India can be traced in fragments to as far back as 700,000 years ago." This will be news the majority of anthropologists. PiCo 01:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

" According to the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis, the Aryans, a semi-nomadic people, possibly from Central Asia or northern Iran migrated into the north-west regions of the Indian subcontinent between 2000 BCE and 1500 BCE. Their inter-mingling with the earlier Dravidian cultures apparently resulted in classical Indian culture as we know today." ----- I want to ask from this sentence written in article which says that current Indian culture is intermingling of Aryans and earlier Dravidian culture. Were aryans coming in very small fraction of original Indians were so much capable that that could generate present Indian culture throughout North & Central India leaving only four states of South India.This is said via intermingling. Aryans coming to India were so much in population so as to evenly intermingle throughout North & Central Indian sub-continent. They were living nomadic or semi-nomadic type life style. There are presently many nomadic tribes in India having good population ( % can be same as Aryans coming to past Indian subcontinent ). But urban or village dwelling Indians are never impressed with their primitive culture. So, similarly ancient Indians leaving in planned towns , seaports or villages over very huge area of India and who were Merchants ( as they were having export business as evident from planned sea-ports of vast Indus civilization ) ,Artists ( making so many different types of arts from painting ,pottery , cotton cloth making & dyeing, making small metal statues, making different ornaments from gold-silver & others ) and farmers ( reaping rich crops )  ; how they can intermingle with nomadic type living Aryans.

Britishers have ruled full Indian sub-continent, they were not nomads. They were rulers having much much more political power than nomad type aryans who were just migrants like parsis ( zorastrians from Iran ) coming to India. So, it is impossible to impart such a culture throughout past India so fast that it feels dramatic when thought. Not only culture but language of Indo-European type over vast area of India so quickly ( max. within 500 years as per Aryan hyposis ) that even south Indians adopted their vedic religion. South India started using Sanskrit direct or based on it words heavily. Not only North but also South India adopted their Sanskrit language as religious language.South Indians were chanting Sanskrit mantra and their languages are also heavily contains Sanskrit direct or based words - except current Tamil language as Tamilians deliberately removed Sanskrit based words from Tamil after Aryan Invasion Theory was proposed in 1850's.

Sanskrit ( so called Aryan language ) not having traces in their supposed homeland area in Steppes. So, it must have been formulated to currently known status of Sanskrit language from so called PIE in Indian sub-continent with very advanced grammatical & phonetical characterisitc typical of Sanskrit. But same features are also found only in Europe's extreme western language Lithuanian. Why so called Indo-European language family's both ends are showing very close affinity in word constuction, typical grammer, phonetics etc. leaving the middle languages and not giving their typical charactristics. This is totally impossible to occur independently if you know both the languages' characteristics.

WIN 07:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

What? "advanced grammatical & phonetical characteristics"? No one language can ever be anymore "advanced" than any other. Sanskrit is certainly a most beautiful language, but that is more the result of Pāṇini's work in the 3rd century BC than through natural language change. And Lithuania is not in the extreme west of Europe at all; see the map on the nation's page. The similarities between the two languages are mostly a result of the fact they once shared a sprachbund; the area of satemization that affected a series of shared sound changes in the Indo-Iranian (of which Sanskrit is a member) and Balto-Slavic (of which Lithuanian is a member) proto-languages. These sound changes are not reconstructed for having occured in an earlier Proto-Indo-European context due to their absence in other branches. Putting the Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages so close to each other is not mere conjecture either; there is infact an Indo-Iranian language still spoken in the Caucasus, in South Russia, to this day: The Ossetic language. The Ossetian language is unique enough to clearly not be a result of recent migration, but close enough to be classified as specifically Indo-Iranian. It is the sole survivor of a large language continuum that spread across central asia, but which was replaced in historical times by the expansion of Turkic speaking cultures from the east. Your dismissal of the Aryan migration is a bit confused as well - the Aryans where not just nomads, they would have been as much a part of the Central Asian and Indian city state cultures as the post-Harrapan "native" Indians where. The advantage the Aryans had was simple: animals. Pastoralism is in many ways, especially to an early bronze age culture, much more efficient than crop based food production. Their culture of animal rearing would have been very attractive to the peoples of the Indus Valley, especially following the drought that led to the collapse of their agriculture based society. The people of the Indus valley would most likely not have been "reaping rich crops" as you put it. Concerns about "civilization" would have become irrelevent; the need for food outweighs cultural imperalism. And with the reliance of the pre-Aryan inhabitants on the Aryan food production methods, the distinction between "nomadic" and "settled" would have blurred very quickly. The Aryan way of life, in all it's forms, found it's way into India. Intermarriage and cultural exchange occured; the "intermingling" you took issue at. This initial intermingling, of course, wasn't what led to Sanskrit being spoken all over North India. What it led to, however, was the roots of the Vedic civilization, which subsequently grew to have a tremendous influence over the whole of the sub-continent, through it's culture and society, through it's language, and through it's religion. There's nothing bizarre or unexpected about what happened with the Indus Valley peoples and the Aryans. We've seen it happen many times, even in recorded history. One case is that of the Byzantium empire in Anatolia, where supposedly "barbarian" peoples, the Turks, become so ingrained into a civilization that they found their culture becoming dominant. Anatolia is now known as "Turkey", and speaks the Turkish language, because of that cultural change. --Krsont 01:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"Sanskrit is a most beutiful language" as also told by you above - how any language becomes beutiful when language is not any woman. Language is called beutiful from it's construction point of view, due to Sanskrit's grammatical structure which is purely very logical & mathematical, Sanskrit's ability to construct new words, the unique phonetic characteristics which is only possible in Sanskrit & daughter Indian languages ( if you can read Sanskrit script then you can pronounce exactly it without knowing that Sanskrit word which is not possible in English like languages - one example `Cut' and `Put' - both are written in the same way but pronounced differently - this is biggest drawback of English type languages. That's why Indian people do not require phonetics to learn. It's interwoven in their language so easily that European scholars were amazed by Sanskrit when they came to know first via Arab scholars. It's same as number system of 1 to 9 and concept & number of 0 `zero' and decimal system. Now everybody find it so casual that we forget it's unique importance and that it was only Indians ( not babylonians, greeks,romans - e.g. X for 10 and XX for twenty , egypticians etc. ) who were able to develop this unique mathematics which was the main foundation for Europe's Industrial revolution. )

And, Baltic language area of Lithuania is at western shore of Europe mainland and not in middle of Europe.

Panini has just codified Sanskrit grammer in Algebric type of rules which is unique in the world and smallest also. He has not developed already in use Sanskrit grammer.And, by the way if you know anything about TRUE Indian history then you should be knowing that during 600 - 500 BC of Mahavir & Budhdha's time Sanskrit was no more common language of people. Already Prakrit languages like Pali & Ardhamagadhi were speken by people. So, to prevent natural changes in Sanskrit ( which is very common in the world languages and that's why they are not same from origin time to current status. One e.g. English ) Due to Panini's rules , Sanskrit has not changed till today. Sanskrit as a language has not evolved but was already in vey high format. That's why Sanskrit verses reciting with exact pronunciation was very important and very much stressed upon. That's why you have all vedas still intact without any sound change. As Sanskrit was already in it's best form , so any sound change or speaking error was told as degradation ( called Apbhransh in Sanskrit ). If we take Aryan supporter's words then Sanskrit developed & died ( died in language of common people's sense ) within 500 - 700 years. And, this time period is very very small for language like Sanskrit. Even, scholars agree that to create vast knowledge & deep thinking as revered in Sanskrit scriptures is not at all possible in small time frame as told by Max Muller & supporters.

Your Aryans having animals as big plus point over Indus Valley civilization really shows that what limited knowledge or thinking or logic you have. You are telling as if Indus Valley people were not having any animals or having scarcity of animals. Indus valley civilization could feed upto 5 milloin people and having surplus ( without agricultural surplus there can not be any trading / manufacturing people ). This civilization was largest of all prevalent civilizations in terms of area & population. How they were doing farming ? Must be using some tractors instead of bulls as there was scarcity of animals as told by you !!! And with bulls naturally comes cows.They are revered in Rig-Ved as Saraswati river giving milk and dairy products. But when `so called' aryans came to India , Saraswati river was completely dried up. So, how `so called' aryans' cattle ( not millions but atleast in thousands - who came `flying' crossing High Mountains of Himalayas as there are no archeological finds of them ) survived in dried Saraswati river area. Indus Valley civilization's people started migrating in all directions when Saraswati river started strinking in length & width much before 1900 BC when it completely dried up from Indian soil. That's why you find non-ocean going two rivers in Afghanistan & Iran naming Harahvaiti ( Saraswati's pronunciation shifting from `S' to `H' )

India is having world's highest no. of animals. And, as per your logic cows , bulls , buffalos and even horses as previously asserted by Aryan Invasion theory supporters must have come from Steppes. Then Indus Valley civilization's people must be using tractors for farming as you implied above !!! There are so many points which I can elaborate but you can find them on the net.

Turks were famous ruthless invasioners and `so called' Aryans were migrationers as per current model prevailing among this theory supporter. Invasion model is past. Turkey example would have been good at that time !!!

Why Pastoral nomad `Aryans' require to develop sophisticated Astronomy for cattle rearing. You can find present Astronomy of Indians totally based on Sanskritic nomenclature also mentioned in Rig-Ved. So as per Aryan Theory , this Sanskrit name based Astronomy must be given by Aryans. So this PIE based Astronomical names must be found in Steppes region as this names must have developed in pastoral steppes !!! But strangely this is not the case at all. Then if previous so called Indus Valley dwelling people had developed it then why they will give Sanskrit based astronomical names when they do not know Sanskrit only. And, do not tell that " Intermingling" was so effective that they found "very attractive" to use Sanskrit nomenclature like above mentioned Animal rearing.

Advanced astronomy would be required by Agricultural society for getting exact time of raining which is fix in India, due to South West Monsoon winds. Only India has Monsoon mechanishm and not steppes. Astronomy will be required in Navigation which Indus Valley civilization's traders would require for export purpose.

You first gain some knowledge in this matter or develop some logic before speaking anything about it.

WIN 06:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that Aryan animals came to be used in the Indus Valley, just that their pastoral methods did - and if we look at modern Indian cattle, we find that they descend entirely from cattle domesticated seperately in India, not from the Central Asian stock the Aryans in Afghanistan and the surround area would have used. What was adopted was the Aryan way of life, not their genetics - whether through cows or people. And yes, the Indus river was dry, (erroneously labeled Sarasvati - the Vedic Sarasvati is more likely to be the Helmud in Afghanistan) but that was entirely the reason for the switch to pastoralism. The steppes are also a dry place, but pastoralism succeeded there where crop based food production could not. The Aryans would also not have needed "sophisticated astronomy" to rear cattle. Just a basic understanding of the cycle of the year, for which there are ample reconstructions for in Proto-indo-European. Infact, astronomy is much more important for agriculture - hence it's later development in Sanskrit speaking Vedic India, when agriculture became a viable solution again. And I'm glad you mentioned the monsoon - yet another reason why the intermingling would have to have happened. Vital information like that would have to have been shared between the two groups. I'd also disagree with your dismissal of the Turks as "ruthless invasioners"; their culture spread as much by peaceful means as it did millitarily. Even in modern times we see that Central Asia is a mixture of Iranian and Turkic genetics and culture, with mostly Turkic languages in the north and Iranian in the south. The same sort of thing happened in India. --Krsont 13:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"erroneously labeled Sarasvati - the Vedic Sarasvati is more likely to be the Helmud in Afghanistan" - Dear first brush up your knowledge and don't write anything. If Rig - Vedic Saraswati river is Helmund then where are Yamuna and Shutudri ( Satluj ) and other rivers Sapta Sindhu big ( Seven rivers ) rivers and Ganga river. Please find them also in Afghanistan. And, Sindhu ( Indus ) never was a dry river as written above as it still flows. And, why Hindus are still reciting Saraswati river's name in Sanskrit verse form alongwith other big Indian rivers like Ganga, Yamuna , Godavari , Sindhu , Kaveri ( while taking daily bath ) if Saraswati was never ever an Indian holy & big river or as said in Rig-Ved - biggest & mightiest of all Sapta Sindhu rivers.

You are telling past assertions which are absurd in today's context. I urge you & all others to go through `Discuss' pages of Aryan Invasion Theory and Indo-Aryan Migration. There are written ample for your kind of people to increase knowledge in this matter or about your pseudoism.

Pastoralism will not be possible in any desert so as Indian desert.But Agriculture is still very much possible in neighbouring richly fertile Indus Civilization areas of Punjab,Haryana and Gujarat. So during that drying of Saraswati river time , there were neighbouring areas of Indus Valley civilization which were & are richly fertile due to other big rivers. Drying of any big & mightly river will be very gradual process and not overnite or within some 100 - 200 years and desertification of Rajashthan will be very very slow process which is even not possible within 100 - 200 years but 1000 - 2000 years atleast which was one reason of Saraswati river ending in Desert and not in Ocean which is mentioned in Mahabharat. So, Mahabharat must have been composed & associated with Iran & Afghan as per your logic !!!!!!! ( but some way it is; via Gandhari - princess of Gandhar - mother of Kauravs who faught Great war of Mahabharat and Afghanistan was part of Ancient India ) In Mahabharat Ghandhari is called upon as Arya nari ( Arya woman - means Noble & Virtueus woman ) and never ever his son Duryodhan who was non-vertueus or not noble as a person. So, you can understand that in Sanskrit scriptures term `Arya' is always called upon as respect gesture to Noble persons and not with their Non-Noble children. So to find some Aryan race or lineage in it is biggest joke ( or rather mis-guide ) of 19th century which is still hanging on you.

Greek Historians ( check Pliny's writings about India ) coming with Alexander to ancient India ( that area is modern Pakistan ), have mentioned that Indians are having calender going back to more than some 6,000 years ( this was noted around 350 BC ).Then how come modern Western Scholars are not teaching the world about India's ancient astronomical advances which would be first in the world ( older than Mesopotamia. But India should not be credited that was mantra of that time's British rulers ). And, that time also Indians were not having any memory of some Aryan nomadic people coming to India and giving language, religion, caste system, advanced astronomy knowledge etc. to original Indians as it is not present even in Greek records. These ancient greek historians mind was not plagued like Max Muller and their followers. So, their written records should be believed who met ancient Indians and appreciated India & her people with amaze and not 1850's British Empire paid servants like Max Muller who has written baseless things about `aryans' which are not having any proofs and who has written twisted translation or mis-interpreted Rig-Ved.

Man, have some common sense or gather some info before writing here.

WIN 04:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Krsont knows very well what he is talking about. While you appear to be regurgitating propaganda which, believe me, Misplaced Pages talkpages are already full of, no need to add another layer. Of course the Mahabharata was composed in India, that was more than 1500 years after the migration. If the Helmand was the Sarasvati of the early Rigveda (which is not certain, but a serious possibility. I wouldn't say "likely" here, but "possibly"), the name would have been transferred to an Indian river before 1200 BC. It was only after another millennium that the epics were composed. Migrating peoples take their toponyms with them, the USA is full of them (e.g. Zurich vs. Zurich, Kansas) dab (ᛏ) 10:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Do not feed trolls. -- Sundar 12:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, just read what Krsont and I have written , understanding each words properly and then tell me. Your Zurich example is what can be told by me that when desert ending Saraswati river ( during Mahabharat time or before ) made migration of ancient Indians in every directions , they found similar non-ocean ending rivers in Afghan & Iran and that's why Saraswati name was given to them also - in memory of their ancient Indian river. So, people shifting to new places ( this new place should be non or scarcely - populated and culture should not be deep rooted as it was in U.S.A. when Zurich name was given to Kansas city. Now , you can not change that city name from people's mind easily. ) Same way when Saraswati river when started shrinking in width and it was no longer mightiest river as mentioned in Rig-Ved and this was before Mahabharat time as that time Saraswati river was ending in desert instead of sea, ancient Indians started migrating towards North-West and reached Afghan & Iran's non-ocean going river and named it Saraswati. Saraswati river's mention in Rig-Ved and Mahabharat are not my speculations like some Aryan Theory but it is clearly mentioned in it that way. This can not be mis-interpreted or mis-represented.

If Mahabharat is written in India then why it mentions desert ending drying Saraswati river. If Helmund or Iran's Harahvaiti river is original Saraswati then Mahabharat should be MahaAfghan or MahaIran. And, what about Saraswati's full dried riverbed findings after American Satellite pictures.

Man , Saraswati was an Indian river is accepted by scholars. Come out from past and gather current latest info.

This shows that Western people who have not read Indian scriptures thoroughly and then asserting it his belief without any logic. READ POINTS PROPERLY & LOGICALLY UNDERSTANDING THAT TIME FRAME.

And, Mahabharat was not written in `so called' Epic Age during 1000-500 BC and if this is pure story came from some person's mind then why that person ( i.e. Ved Vyas ) is required to give astronomical positions of Sun, Moon,planats, nakshtra ( stars constellations ) , ecllipse , bright comet etc. all astronomical things at the time of starting of Mahabharat war. In India, you will find so many places associated with Mahabharat or Ramayan and that places are revered still today as that particular place from Mahabharat or Ramayan. There are no clash literally between people about that association and nor geographically also. Means Kurukshetra is in Haryana and not in U.P. or M.P. Panchvati is in Nasik not in Punjab or Tamilnadu. Rameshwar at Tamilnadu shore not in Kerala or Maharashtra shore. There are many many places like this. But to understand , you should know Indian scriptures first.Otherwise it will be all going above your head and still you will assert the same old stuff.

And, you western people still trying to find some Troy ! For you, Mahabharat or Ramayan's so many places perfect association ( sometimes with same old names carried perfectly till today ) is some fabricated epic story. Then what Saraswati river is doing in Rig-Ved and Mahabharat ( supposed to have been composed around 1500 BC - 500 BC - as per Aryan Theory ) when there some big Indian river was already totally dried atleast before 1800 BC as found by geologists.

PERFECT PSEDOISM !!!

WIN 09:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Intro cleanup

I was pretty disappointed with the intro to this major and highly important article. User 59.92.48.53 added a large poorly-written chunk to the intro section that I deleted. I also tried to make the intro flow a little better from the Indus Valley Civilization to the Vedic Civilization and tried to make it more NPOV. I've done what I can in a short period of time, but I believe some more work may be needed. I encourage others to help clean up the intro more.--Osprey39 02:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Use of BCE

This article uses the notation BCE. Originally it used BC, then someone put a few instances of BCE in, then someone thought let's standardise on BCE. This is against the Misplaced Pages guidelines which state that the preferences demonstrated in the first substantial edit should be adhered to. This is not the case here. The notation has been changed for whatever reason, political correctness or otherwise. I intend to revert this to BC, to comply with Misplaced Pages guidelines. Please note, this article is about a country, not about a religion. Arcturus 18:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Isn't changing it back just pointless, as both terms are acceptable? For example, if an article had British English spellings and some Americocentrist changed it all to American English or the other way around, it would still be a waste of time to change it back just to prove a point.--Grammatical error 13:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a fair point - there are plenty of better things to bother about on Misplaced Pages. However, not changing it would give carte blanche to editors to carry out wholesale changes across Misplaced Pages - BC --> BCE or vice versa, or AmE to BrE and the like, without fear of the changes ever being challenged. I'll leave it for the moment to see what other views surface. Arcturus 09:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The dating system can be changed if editors active at an article so choose. As this has arisen, we could take it as an opportunity to make the choice (rather than go with the accident of the first editor's preference). I support a change to BCE/CE, as the standard academic (and increasingly in moe popular non-fiction books) system in modern publications. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I endorse the reversion to BC from BCE per Arcturus and Mel Etitis. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 19:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, the Misplaced Pages policy on date notation is not that it should never change, but that it should be consistent within the article. I think it makes more sense to use the BCE/CE notation for Indian history; it is already standard for articles on Buddhist history, and increasingly so for other non-western histories. Tom Radulovich 23:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

History of India and Republic of India

Article on History of India and Replublic of India gives information for India and 2050 and there is no information of Poverty and Hunger in present.

vkvora 04:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

For that we have Poverty in India. You can add a ==History== section to it. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 05:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

History of Poverty and Mumbai Bomb Blast 711

Is there any relation between History of Poverty and Mumbai Bomb Blast 711.

vkvora 17:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Indo-Aryan

Click here

The article above suggests that the majority of the scholary community no longer favour Indo-Aryan hypothesis, whether invasion or migration.

Should it therefore deserve to be treated as fact in the article anymore?

Vastu 06:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

India has been judged as the sixth most dangerous country

• http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=72099

India 6th most dangerous country for kids: Poll

New Delhi, August 7: India has been judged as the sixth most dangerous country for children in the world, according to a recent poll. Afghanistan, Palestinian territories, Myanmar and Chechnya were placed better than India in the poll conducted by Reuters Alertnet, a humanitarian news website run by Reuters Foundation, Rajya Sabha was told today.

During the survey, the website asked more than 110 aid experts and journalists to highlight the most dangerous places for children. The first five dangerous countries are Sudan, Northern Uganda, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq and Somalia, Minister of State (independent charge) for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury said while replying to a written question.

The facts that have been taken into account for the poll survey include the children involved in armed conflict, the psychological trauma experienced by children caught up in violence, the children living in poverty and forced to work to support themselves and their families and malnutrition among children, the minister said.

vkvora 14:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

How is this related to a vague history article? Vastu 22:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

In the 21st century, India is an emerging economic power and labelled as a modern great power. with vast human and natural resources, and a huge knowledge base. Economists predict that by 2050, India will be among the top three economies of the world. ::vkvora 04:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I still dont understand why you posted it. Vastu 07:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Is Northern Uganda a country now?

Many unreferenced statements

This article is leaden with unreferenced statements. It just carries a list of "Further Reading" in the end and does not indicate which sources convey which fact. I am putting a unreferenced tag and will try to tag the unreferenced statements too. This is an important article and though it has a lot of content, it isn't encyclopedic. Shushruth 03:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Please use the reference tags when citing sources. Shushruth 03:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Chandragupta Maurya's pic

Looks like its been taken from the Amar Chitra Katha comic. Wouldnt it be appropriate to replace it with a pic of Ch.Maurya in battle fatigues or on the throne or something like that instead of an illustration where he is being taken prisoner(guess this is how the story starts in the comic.... aah.. nostalgia). Just a thought. Sarvagnya

If only one can find such a pic which meets wikipedia's upload criteria ! Shushruth 03:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The existing pic is scanned from the comic. If anybody has the comic, all we need to do is scan a different pic from the same comic.Sarvagnya

the use of a comic book rendering of a historical figure is inappropriate in an encyclopeadia, especially as used here -where its use is not particularly necessary, the likeness is not a contemporary one, the caption of "artist's impression" gives no inkling of how accurate this impression is and what it's based on. Doldrums 09:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

recent genetic evidence

If there's recent genetic evidence, then full citation should be readily available from reputable scientific journals. CiteCop 02:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.umassd.edu/indic/press/origin_pr.cfm

That's a press release about a conference and, according to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, "material presented at a conference may not merit publication in a scientific journal."

Show me something published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal instead of a press release and you might have something.

CiteCop 17:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The independence movement sub -heading

I think Subhash Chandra Bose's name being mentioned and Mahatma's name being left out is not right. He was the leader of the movement and if somebody's name has to be mentioned,his has to be there.

Aryan Migration - Most scholars believe?

Do they? Several scholars have basically said that 'all IVC research prior to five years ago was flawed', and yet a source from 1989 (?!) is being quoted in favour of the AMT? Again, refer to a link above in which most scholars attending a Texas meet on the matter apparently no longer favour the Aryan migration. Vastu 10:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is deeply flawed

A disappointing article given the importance of the subject. Too much POV, not enough straight facts.

indian hijacking of Pakistan's history

It really seems that indians have a hard time excepting Pakistan for what it is or excepting the fact that Pakistan has it's own distinct history and culture.FOr Pakistanis who are loyal to our country this is a really annoying for us and has only created feelings of enimity towards indians.Which is not what anyone wants. http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/hijack.html

Historical sites from the indus civilization can be found in Pakistan such as mohinjidaro and not in india.

Please dont repeat the phrase "Pakistan didnt exist back then".Ive heard that too many times.This phrase is fit for india as well.Indians think their country existed back then,but fail to find the background of the countire's three main names(Bharat,India,hindustan)

This popular indian myth that Pakistan was once "a part" of india is a also a parallel to the popular Greek myth that Macedonia was and still is "a part" of Greece when in fact Macedonia has its own distinct culture,while Greeks continue to steal its history.Indians have been very successful in spreading this false myth to the rest of the world.If india was a country then why all these distinct cultures in one country?

Italy did not exist during the days of the ROman empire,but it doesnt mean Roman history is distinct from Italian history.Roman history is part of Italian heritage.

If indians dont have a history of their own,thats their problem it doesnt give them any right to go around claiming Pakistan's ancient hsitory as their own. If you'd like to learn more about ancient Pakistan visit http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/index.html

Thankyou.Nadirali 16:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Pakistan did not exist back then--D-Boy 04:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to judge a history of a country from the time of it's full independance,then you may as well say Pakistan is older than india as Pakistan became indpendant on Augest 14th 1947,wheras India became independant on Augest 15th 1947.Nadirali 17:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

_____________________________________________________________

I completely agree with this. Indians are claiming the History of Ancient Pakistan, when in fact they have very little do with Pakistan. While Pakistan might not have existed, the Pakistani people always have, and they have always lived in what is now called Pakistan. Ancient Pakistani history belongs to the people of Pakistan. If Pakistan changed its name to Batman country tomorrow, its history should be called Ancient Batman history since the people are still the same.

I propose two ideas.

1. All references of History of the Pakistani people is removed from Indias history page.-This is more logical as the Indus is Pakistani history.Nadirali 03:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali 2. Or the article is renamed to Ancient Indo-Pak History, and it should be made clear where in this huge subcontiment the history belongs.-I object to that.There is no "Indo-Pak" history,just as there is no "Chino-Pak" history.There is no arguement here.The Indus is Pakistani history only.Nadirali 03:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

India and Pakistan were both born in 1947. Before that, the whole subcontinent was known as British India. India was never one country. There was no One ruler for this subcontinent so its WRONG to group the entire subcontinent history as one. And the fact that Modern India took the name of what was the name of the subcontinent means nothing. If Germany decides to call itself Europe tomorrow, it doesnt get to claim the history of Ancient Europe.

Please think about it. If you want an article for the history of the entire subcontinent, you will be referring to 1.6 billion people, and no 1.6 billion people cant claim Indus Valley belongs to them. To narrow it down, IVC belongs to Pakistanis, or Pakistani Punjabis and Pakistani Sindhis if you want to be specific.

Comment was added by Unre4L

See also User_talk:Dbachmann#Szhaider. This problem would simply disappear if people would remember to say Republic of India when they refer to the Republic, and Indian subcontinent when they refer to the region. India should be a disambiguation page, otherwise there will be no end of this confusion. The IVC doesn't "belong to Pakistanis", that's silly. Its archaeological remnants do, but not the historical culture "belongs" to no contemporary people. dab (ᛏ) 11:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)Then by your logic,your saying that the history of Rome "doesnt belong to Italians",but to the rest of Europe and the medditerenian.How silly is that?Nadirali 06:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Because nobody understands the ancient harappan texts, there is no way to read the texts as of yet. The cultural history is obviously extinct, but their direct descendants are the people of Pakistan. Through time, they have been mixed with Arabs, Persians, Huns, Moguls, Afghans etc. The Indians purposely use India to describe everything in the subcontinent. The use of the term Ancient India is no longer correct as India is now a modern country. This has to be renamed or the misunderstandings as well as Indian abuse of the term will keep going on. Comment was added by Unre4L

"India" should not be an alternative name for Pre-British South asia.That would be like giving "china" the alternative name for olden day east asia.Nadirali 16:28, 29 November 2006 Pakistan evolved into what it is today from the indus,just as Iraq evolved into what it is today from Babylon,not from Iran(UTC)Nadirali

you will maybe be surprised to realize that China is indeed the article on the region, not on the People's Republic. I am suggesting no more and no less than parallel treatment for India. dab (ᛏ) 16:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Please. China, Korea, Japan, south east asia all have independent histories. It would have been okay to name the south asian subcontinent India IF Modern India hadnt claimed the name. Modern India has nothing to do with the River Indus apart from the name they have stolen. Keep the name, but let Pakistan keep its history. I dont see why you guys are so keen on claiming the history of Pakistan, when 98% of your population has nothing to do with Pakistan. I am being serious on this one. We need to correct this article, and I would really like some unbiased person to do this.

Truly, All that history that involves the Pakistani people, regardless of what they were called back then, still belongs to the people of Pakistan, hence it should known as ancient Pakistan. Comment was added by Unre4L

There is no such thing as Pakistani people, no such thing as Pakistani history (before 1947), the country called "India" has the name Bharat or Hindustan, India is merely the western name.Bakaman 23:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll pretend I didnt read that funny remark about Pakistan.Youre right about the name "india".But you seem clueless about the names "bharat" and "hindustan"."baharat" came from the tribe "the bharatas"."hindustan" came from(the Mughals?)Because the land had a HIndu majority.Nadirali 05:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Ok. This seems to be an interesting topic. I understand your nationalistic sentiments but one must understand that certain historic events which took place in areas which now lie in modern-day Pakistan have had an influence on India's culture and history in general. Therefore certain historical topics lie within the scope of both Indian and Pakistani History projects. For example, the Harappan civilization had an important influence on both India's and Pakistan's history and culture so it is not wrong to include that article/topic within the scope of the Indian History Project. Also, the Indus Valley civilization lied in both modern-day India and Pakistan. See Lothal. --Incman|वार्ता 22:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, several citizens of India, especially those who migrated to India from Pakistan during the Partition of India share the same history with most Pakistanis. --Incman|वार्ता 22:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

My sentiments are no more nationalistic than yours.Every country in the world has the right to take pride in it's history and heritage.But few are under the threat of loosing their idenitity due to cultural imperialism.Such as Macedonia(from the Greeks)and Pakistan(from the Indians).Pakistanis dont go around claiming the Taj-Mahal as part of their heritage,so why then do the Indians do it to Pakistan?The so-called "partition" of "India" is quite a misleading term and should be reffered to the "partitian of Punjab and Bengal".Both India and Pakistan became indipendant in 1947.As for the people who left Pakistan and India during independance,it changes nothing much except for that fact that both countires have people from both sides of the border,just as China and Mongolia.It is said that China has a larger Mongolian population than Mongolia itself,but that's no excuese to give China a claim over Mongolian history or heritage.Nadirali 01:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Well, if Mongols formed a significant part of the Chinese population and had a considerable effect on Chinese culture, China definitely had every right to lay claim over Mongol history and heritage. Let me give you a better example of Tibet and China. From the very tone of your argument I can notice that you are being driven more by passion and nationalism rather than intellect. Topics related to Afghan, Pasthun and Baloch culture and history definitely lie outside the scope of the Indian History project. However, to a certain extent topics related to Sindhi and Punjabi history do lie within the scope of the concerned project because it overlaps with Indian history in general. Anyways, there is absolutely no question that any topic related to the Indus Valley civilization lies within the scope of the project. As a matter of fact, most of the dwellers of the Indus Valley civilization, i.e. Dravidians, are found in southern India. So culturally modern-day Pakistan has nothing to do with Harappa and Mohen-ja Daro. So how can Pakistanis claim the Indus Valley civilization as a part of their heritage? Anyways, I find this discussion absolutely unnecessary and unintellectual. --Incman|वार्ता 08:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

First it's claiming that Pakistan was somehow "part" of India.Now the new excuse is that the two countries exchanged populations.What's the next excuse?

Please,I AM Sindhi from my mothers side.It was Sindh that ruled over the indus.Sindhis are Pakistanis and Muhinjidarro lies in Sindh,Pakistan.We are descendants of the people of the IVC.If you mix the refference to Sindh and Punjab along with the Indus or tags with your India project,its only going to lead to an edit war between you guys and the significant population of Pakistani wikipedians.Sindhis are Aryans not Dravidians and have everything to do with the Indus,genetically.I consider your false claims over the indus driven by your passion to steal my heritage(which I consider nothing but theft).Nadirali 20:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali "Anyways, I find this discussion absolutely unnecessary and unintellectual." Then stop argueing and leave refferences to the indus alone in the India article along with adding any refference to India on the Pakistan History article.Nadirali 20:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Well, I thought of not taking part in this conversation anymore but your argument above changed my mind. "Sindhis are Pakistanis" and I come from Mars! Dude.. there are so many Sindhis living in India. Do you even know what you are talking about? Sindhis ruled IVC?! Huh? I am curious.. where did you read this? In a Pakistani madarassa? C'mon, have you ever heard of the Indo-Aryan migration theory. After the arrival of Aryans in the Indian subcontinent, the IVC was virtually destroyed. The civilization created by the Aryans afterwards is known as the Vedic civilization. Dude.. go read some history books before blabbering here and stop showing off your madarassa education. --Incman|वार्ता 21:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Since I AM Sindhi from my mother's side,it would be a joke for you to tell me that you know my people's history better than me.Sindhis are both Aryan linguistically and genetically.They ruled over the indus before the Aryans came,but since they are mixed with Aryans,they ARE aryans.The word INDUS comes from the word SINDHU.Good idea go learn some history and stop watching bollywood movies for your refference.There are so many Sindhis in India.And where did they come from.Jupitor?They came from PAKISTAN.And no I didnt learn that in a madrassa,I learnt that in a Hindu millitant training camp funded by the BJP itself.You happy now?Nadirali 21:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Before I found this argument amusing.. now I find it hilarious. I think you misinterpreted my prev comment and to some extent it was my fault. Nevermind, I don't find this argument interesting anymore. And finally, it is easy argue.. would it be too hard to have an endless discussion on why Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall? I just don't understand why are you creating such a big issue? Anyways, I am officially ending this argument so there is no need to reply. But that doesn't mean I lost this argument.. I just don't wanna take part in it anymore. Good bye and good riddance. --Incman|वार्ता 03:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You know what I couldn't care any less than you but,sooner or later the Pakistani wikipedians are gonna see you have something that belongs to them,and yeah it will lead to an edit war(sooner or later).would it be too hard to have an endless discussion on why Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall?It would be indeed since it would be technically impossible for someone who doesnt exist to sit on a wall in the first place. Instead of going around stealing someone else's history,I suggest you improve and promote your own history(if you got any that is)."I just dont wanna take part in it anymore".Best thing to want when you're outsmarted(nice try though).Also best thing for the guy who outsmarted you to want as well when he's finished outsmarting you.Nadirali 03:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

You "outsmarted" him?? Maybe in the bizarroworld of the Islamabad Propagandaministerium but not here. Hkelkar 05:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sectarian historical revisionism in Pakistan's schools:

1. School Books That Teach Children To Hate- in Pakistan:
2. Pakistani social studies textbooks creating havoc:

The subtle subversion in Pakistan: Should give an adequate explanation to Nadirali's delusional historical denials and revisionist tirades.Hkelkar 09:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind Kelkar. Nadirali can't even spell Jupiter and reference correctly. Just read this sentence: Sindhis are both Aryan linguistically and genetically.They ruled over the indus before the Aryans came,but since they are mixed with Aryans,they ARE aryans. It just doesn't make any sense as it contradicts itself. Wonder from where he got this crap. No point wasting time on this guy. --Incman|वार्ता 09:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

lol at Nadirali.... Sindhis come from Pakistan?.... I'm a Sindhi too thru my maternal lineage... My folks didnt come from Pakistan, they came from Sindh! Pakistan IMHO is an artifical construct cobbled together from parts of India and Afghanistan. Its not Misplaced Pages's problem if you (Pakistani nationalists) are so confused about your identity... अमेय आर्यन DaBrood 22:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Mughal Empire

On all the pages that I have read so far, the Mughals are referred to as being outsiders, like the British. For example, on one page the terms "Mughal Era" and "British Era" are used.

The British never called India, home—--for them home was always England. Also, many Britishers came here because they were failures or penurious in England, many more came for the adventure. After coming here, they more often than not, looted the country, and generally looked down on the "natives".

The Mughals, on the other hand, lived in and called their home, the India of those days. It is true that the first Mughal came as a conqueror, but on discovering the charm and beauty of this land, stayed on. They did not serve for a year or two just to loot the country and then leave. In fact, many of our treasures today trace their origin to the Mughals. Art, architecture, and the performing arts—--all benefited by their contribution. Many Greek and Chinese historians have recorded these facts. To deny their dynasty and their empire is to deny a part of Indian history.

Dr. Uma 07:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Dr. Uma Sheth

Perfect, I agree word-by-word with your point. Unfortunately, not just in Misplaced Pages, but in most writings we see them as outsiders. If that be the case, all humans are "outsiders" to India, since we all came from Africa at some point or the other! -- Sundar 08:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

To me, mugals symbolize imperialism, persecution, and cultural eradication.--D-Boy 04:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The result of propaganda, no doubt. I don't think there is an objective reason to call the Mughals more imperialistic than the Maurya or Gupta Empires. It is a possible position to reject all imperialism, but to feel patriotic pride for certain historical empires, and hold anti-imperialistic misgivings towards others seems inconsequent. dab (ᛏ) 11:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

may be--D-Boy 01:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, Dab, the Mughals had no great love for India. Bear in mind that Mughal Emperors calle d themselves "Badshah", (with wet-dreams of being "Padishah") rather than "Shah", which was reserved for Persian emperors, to whom they always considered themselves subservient. They clearly had a strong Persian fetish. They emulated their language, their customs, even their sexual practices, in courts. Only Akbar was an integrationist, and the exception among the Mughals rather than the rule.Babur, himself, was worse than Macauley in his pejoration and hatred for India. Witness this extract from the Baburnama:

Hindustan is a place of little charm. There is no beauty in its people, no graceful social intercourse, no poetic talent or understanding, no etiquette, nobility or manliness. The arts and crafts have no harmony or symmetry. There are no good horses, meat, grapes, melons or other fruit. There is no ice, cold water, good food or bread in the markets. There are no baths and no madrasas. There are no candles, torches or candlesticks

This illustrates the medeival Persian ethnocentrism of the Mughals quite adequately.Hkelkar 09:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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