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Hinduism Unassessed

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Though have heard about it not much references.npov definately contested. Calvinkrishy 10:29, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC) source news sites http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/aug/13guest1.htm

Longest and Largest Holocaust

The massacre and slaughter of Hindus has been going on since the raids of Ghazni and Ghori till today. The holocaust of Jews was inconspicuous compared to the killings of hundred of millions of Hindus for about a millennium. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.141.12.195 (talk) 10:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Needs a total rewrite

A secular account of the persecution and ethnic cleansing against Hindus is greatly needed, however it should be written from a neutral point of view. Things like "it is sad that" and various metaphors and analogies throughout the article need to go, and more history and worldly information needs to be included. User:LucaviX

Here's some for you:

http://hinduwebsite.com/history/holocaust.htm

Also, you can link to Misplaced Pages articles on Aurangzeb, the greatest tyrant in Indian history who created a military industrial complex centered around the slaughter of hindus. However, given the fact that most wikipedia moderators are westerners, I doubt that they would extend the courtesy of the truth to a hindu.

Also, I find it interesting that any article vilifying the haters of hinduism and exposing their agenda of destroying us is tagged as "disputed NPOV", but similar articles about the persecution of Jews and Christians with the same obvious biases are praised and displayed proudly by wikipedia moderators. It seems NPOV does not apply to the white man, only for us "Mud people".

Subhash Bose

I changed the tag of the article from Factual dispute to cleanup requirement. I did this because the factual accuracy of the persecution of Hindus is well documented by the CIA world human rights report (Google for it & look up Bangladesh). It is true, that the article is not of good quality and needs to be changed. I'm working on a draft with bibiliography and will post it soon. USer: Subhash Bose

How about making it a comprehensive article

The Hare Krishna movement is being subjected to religious persecution in Russia. Their requests for allocation of land for temple construction have been denied by the Russian government. To add insult to injury, vile abuses were heaped upon the person of Lord Krishna by bigoted clergman of Russian Orthodox church. Should we also include a topic on this page which talks about the operational issues faced by the sect. This would be especially relevant considering the fact that this sect has more non-Indian devotees and major operation outside India.

There are numerous such instances of religious persecution of Hindus by intolerant societies. This also has a strong historical relevance because Islamic conquest of India involved massacares and extreme brutalities. The title of this article is misleading since people would assume we'll talk about all these issues, when in essence we are only talking about one report which captures these attrocities in one year.

Any suggestions on this would be welcome!

indologist

I second that motion and add some references to back it up:

( 1) http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=NEWS&id=1136261415, 2)http://www.defendrussianhindus.org/). I hope that wikipedia readers will be exposed to all the fact of this horrible situation in Russia and not be blinded by the usual christian-sympathetic propaganda of the west. Subhash Bose

Report is missing

The report is missing and a lot of claims are made about this report. I think it should be added and the suggestive language about the report should be repaired. --Unweasel 15:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Suggested merging "Anti-Hindu" into this article

I suggest merging the Anti-Hindu article into this, as there are some significant content overlaps between the two. Opinions? --Anirvan 22:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me - the two cover similar material. Banno 23:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No, they should be separate articles, the issues are distinct.--Vikramsingh 01:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. They should be separate. 'Persecution of Hindus' refers to enemies of the Hindu people. 'Anti-Hindu' refers to people who hate Hindus. There is a difference. The former implies the latter, though the latter does NOT necessarily imply the former.Netaji 01:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Hinduism" template on this page

(Moved from my talk page) `'mikka (t) 02:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have made some edits to the article in question. I am still working on it, adding more citations and info. I am informing you as a courtesy. I have re-added the Hinduism footer that you removed. I respectfully disagree that this article has nothing to do with Hinduism. Bear in mind that the Persecution of Jews is listed in the Judaism category and, like the Jewish people, the history of our persecution is centrally important to our religious sensibilitues as well. I request you to allow me some latitude regarding this. Thanks.Netaji 23:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree with your comparison. The template in Persecution of Jews is caled "Jews and Judaism" and it covers all: jews, judaism and their history. The template in Persecution of Hindus is called "Hinduism" and hence must be confined to articles dealing with hinduism. While I understand that the topics are related, there must be order in classification. After all, everything in the world is rerlated to each other in one way or another. The "Hinduism" template is a navigation tool to navigate between the articles on the same topic, rather than to label all articles in category:Hinduism. After all, this jobe is done by the category margker itself. Such navigational templates are placed only in articles that are listed in the template. Otherwise many wikipedia articles will be littered by such templates, since a large number of articles address many topics. `'mikka (t) 02:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's a good point. Hows about we keep it in the Hindu History category as it is now?Netaji 03:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, "History" OK. `'mikka (t) 19:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

So Shri Krishna is an 'evil demon'?

Calling Shri Krishna an "evil demon" is a misinformation campaign. I was being polite. It's actually blatant defamation. How'd you like it when Noam Chomsky calls the Bible "The most genocidal book in History"? Netaji 19:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It is not misinformation campaign. It is a general attitude of any monoteistic religion towards what they perceive "pagan gods", possibly mixed with ignorance. Although religious disputes are very often mixed with political issues, let us not mix them in wikipedia. Also, mixing of Hindus and Krishnaites, especially hare-krishnaites is not a good idea either. I don't know how Hare Krishnna behaves in India or internationally, but in Russia it is run by a bunch of crooks embezzling psychicaly unstable people off money and property and making them peddlers of krishnaite literature thus making certain people rich. (Similar things happen with Christian sects as well, by the way, and persecution of such crooks is not called "discrimination") `'mikka (t) 20:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Sahib, you are referring to ISKON which IS an org of wierdos, granted. However, there are millions of legitimate worshippers of Shri Krishna in Hinduism. Defaming Shri Krishna is equivalent to defaming the entire Vaishnavite section of the Hindu Dharma, ergo, ignorance or not, it's defamation at worst, misinformation at best. Plus, this orthodox dude did not single out ISKON, he attacked Krishna. That's like Jyllands-Posden for Hindus (though we're not rioting over this). I mean, what if I called Christ a 'demon' because of the wierdness of the Jehovah's Witnesses?Netaji 22:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

In my text above I included the phrase "possibly mixed with ignorance". I have no idea who in Russia wanted the temple. (Actually, I know now; see Hinduism in Russia. Actually, it says that the temple is being constructed.) I don't know whether "true" Hindus approached the Russian Church for dialog. I don't know what kind of land plot was promised to them. If it was state-owned land, then let them shut up. The whole issue is murky and probably dshould be covered in more detail in the relevant articles, Hinduism in Russia, Buddhism in Russia, etc., where all details must be covered, covering all points of view. By the way, it was 2 years ago. What's heard about the issue today?

I am 100% sure that there is no national hatred towards India and Hindus, neither on personal, nor on state level. Traditionally India was always respected in Russia and its culture admired. It is a pity that some crooks spoil this image. `'mikka (t) 22:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that the Russians say the same thing about the Jewish people as well. Yet, anti-semitism in Russia and the region has become so bad that East-European Jews are emmigrating to USA and Israel in droves (90% of Ben-Gurion University faculty is Russian Jews, and 90% of the Physics Department of Texas A&M Universsity is also Russian Jews, and they told me this). I'm very sorry if this hurts your feelings (which is not my intention), but Russia has had a poor history of religious tolerance compared to Western European and American countries. Stalin executed quite a few Jews, and Soviets demolished mosques and madrassas in Kazakhstan. Even after the collapse of USSR there has been anti-semitism and racism in many parts of Russia, coupled with the rise of Neo-Nazism in Urban areas (odd, since Nazis hated Slavic people quite badly). The Orthodox bishop's attack on Shri Krishna is merely a reflection of the general intolerance, and the pogroms against Hindus are on their way...

I posted what info I found on the web. I don't know about the plight of Hindus in Russia as yet, since media will be in Russian (which I can't read). Hindus are not a nationality, they are a religion (and an ethnicity, though muslims will probably not like me for saying that). Given India's former relations with USSR, I'm sure there is positive feelings for India the NATION. However, as far as Hinduism is concerned, there is no positive feeling. Communist ideologues in Russia such as Leon Trotsky have constantly demonized, defamed, misrepresented and hated Hindus, and that has leaked into the intolerance of some elements in the Russian Orthodox church. This screed of Shri Krishna being "demonic" is a typical tactic carried out by white supremacist missionaries in India as a campaign of cultural genocide against Hindus, and I'm sure that, since the Bishop must be a well-educated man, he is not ignorant of the subject of Shri Krishna. He has clearly distorted Hindu scripture deliberately so as to malign Hindus in general, and THAT is misinformation and defamation. It is not brought out BY ignorance, it is meant TO promulgate ignorance. There is a difference, see? If he just criticized ISKON members that would be a different issue.Netaji 23:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I agree with this move. Move the details to Hinduism in Russia and keep summary here. That's OK. Thanks.Netaji 23:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism

I will rewrite the sentence, meanwhile keep sentence in article and put a source notice.Bakaman _Bakatalk 23:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

why merge template?

why is there a merge template on the main page. anti-hindu is totally different from persecution of hindus. anti-hindu is like anti-jew and persecution of hindus is like persectution of jews. totally different articles. i shall remove this template if i dont see any criticism.thank you.nids 12:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Other major religions on WP have a clear distinction between articles dealing with general/philosophical criticisms (e.g. Criticism of Christianity, Criticism of Judaism, Criticism of Islam) and the literal hands-on human-rights-denying persecution of adherents (e.g. Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Muslims, and Anti-Semitism). I haven't found a third category like "anti-Christian" or "anti-Islamic."

Most of the original content on the Anti-Hindu article deals with hands-on human-rights-denying persecution of Hindu adherents, and seems to duplicate this article (in worse quality, with fewer details). I think merging the two would give us a better article. -- Anirvan 22:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think i was clear in my initial post that anti-hindu is like anti-jew and persecution of hindus is like persectution of jews. if there is any duplicacy, we can remove that, but definately no merger. we dont have articles like anti-muslim or anti-christian for they never existed.(those who thought so were killed). you can refer to articles of anti-jew and persecution of jews for details.nids 22:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I will remove template.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Nidish, I'm terribly confused. Perhaps you didn't read my comment. There isn't an article called Anti-Jew, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up as a model for Anti-Hindu. You also state that there aren't any articles about criticism of Christianity or criticism of Islam, because those critics were killed; however, the articles obviously do exist.

If having split persecution/criticism articles is good enough for Christians (Persecution of Christians/Criticism of Christianity), Muslims (Persecution of Muslims/Criticism of Islam) and Jews (Anti-Semitism/Criticism of Judaism), then why should we establish an entirely separate system for Hinduism?

The scope of anti-Hindu (which isn't even a noun) is incredibly unclear, and there's substantial topical overlap with Persecution of Hindus. I suggest bringing coverage of Hinduism in line with that of other major world religions, by merging the content of any nonstandard articles into Persecution of Hindus and Criticism of Hinduism.

Bakaman, I'm sorry for not having replied to Nidhish earlier, and possibly having given you the impression that I agreed with his argument; I'll restore the template, because treating Hinduism as a special case just doesn't make case. Anirvan 02:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Anirav, there is no article anti-jew, but there is one on anti-semitism. Now come to christianity and islam. there are articles on criticism of christianity/islam, persecution of chrisitanity/islam and islamophobia/christianophobia. (Remember hinduphobia redirects to anti-Hindu.) anti-semitism or anti-hindu talks about the feelings, and persecution talks about actions. I dont know how can i make it more clear to you.--nids(♂) 03:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Anirav, we cant wait for a week for your response everytime. Please dont just come and reinsert those tags without discussion. And try reading different articles to have a feel of it, i.e. why different articles are required.--nids(♂) 18:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think he had made his point that different articles are not required. I certainly don't see the uniqueness of the anti-Hindu article; to compare it to the article on anti-semitism is absurd. Please do not close discussion like this. "Cant wait for a week", indeed. Why not? This article isnt going towards FA status anytime soon, you know. Probably never, given the people who edit it regularly. Hornplease 03:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you feel about Islamophobia article??

And i said that a week is too much for a response. and when he came, he straightaway reinserted the template. You should provide reasons on the talk page and wait for some time(not weeks, but days) before reinserting a controversial template.--nids(♂) 05:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, I apologize for my prior delay.

Anti-Semitism and its related articles are excellent -- well-written, balanced, and not appearing to display any particular religious biases. The Islamophobia article is something entirely different -- it's a description of a very specific neologism in wide use in current political discourse, and much of the article is about the term itself, and varying opinions about it; most of the sources are from non-Muslim academic, government, news, and political sources. It also includes a wide variety of political opinions, from both advocates and critics of the concept. There's little overlap between that article and Persecution of Muslims.

You point to Christianophobia as an example to be emulated; it strikes me as a rather poorly written article, and somewhat POV. It's unfortunate if that's the best we can aspire to.

Anti-Hindu is a strange hodgepodge. About half of it discusses the persecution of Hindus (hence my suggestion to merge it with this article, which is much better written); the other half consists of undocumented statements and opinions -- all of it appearing to echo one, very specific, set of political opinions (without that point of view being made clear in the text). Anirvan 07:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I fully accept that christianophobia is poorly written article, just like anti-hindu. I accept that half of the discussions are duplicated. We can remove that and try to make a better article of it. But no way is merger a solution, even if anti-hindu is not a written properly.

I am providing a blueprint for the articles here. In persecution of hindus, we will talk about the actions, historic and contemporary. while in anti-hindu, we will talk about feelings or prejudices against hindus. As an example, the russian action of demolishing of krishna temple will come in persecution of hindus, while Witzels suggestion to government to ban hindus from cremating their dead will come in Hinduphobia or anti-Hindu. Fine.--nids(♂) 12:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Nids, do u have any evidence for Witzel's statement? →Talk 13:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, i do not have reliable source. So i did not inserted it in any of the articles. I just pointed out to such statements as prejudices, which are somewhat different from persecution. If a law is passed, then its persecution, while if scholars demand for such things, it is just Hinduphobia.--nids(♂) 13:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

How does one clearly distinguish between criticism of Hinduism and "anti-Hindu"? Can you offer some concrete, verifiable examples of "anti-Hindu" that are neither critical of Hinduism, nor fundamentally linked to the persecution of Hindus? (Or does the apex of "anti-Hindu" over the past 5000 years really consist of unverified statements from a 20th/21st century American college professor?) Anirvan 17:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Historically, anti-hindu can be described as the contempt of hinduism as its practices were not strictly monotheistic. Babarnama has some reference that India was a land of kaafirs (i hope you know what kaafir means). You are not exactly persecuting, till you have laws that straightaway victimize the people.

Also, Anti-Hindu has grown recently due to, say success of Hindus. If you are in a democratic country, like say UK, you wont find persecution there, just the hatred, which can be better summed up as Hinduphobia or anti-hindu. The organisations like Dalitstan and people like Michael Witzel are better summed up as hinduphobics or anti-hindus. They arent and cant persecute Hindus. I hope i am clear enough. But it is a healthy discussion. I hope you can give some good counter-argument against my views. nids(♂) 17:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Also remember that people like Kancha Ilaiah are anti-hindus and there user pages are directed to anti-hindu. It isnt wise if we redirect anti-hindu to persecution of hindus. If he hasnt killed anyone or victimized, he is just expressing his opinion in a democratic country. He is just an anti-hindu, no way is he persecuting them.nids(♂) 18:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

If someone believes that Hindus are kafirs for not being monotheistic in a particular way, isn't that (by definition) linked to a particular theological critique of Hinduism? If Hindus suffered as a result of that theological conflict, that strikes me as persecution.

Kancha Ilaiah and Dalitstan are more promising, with the huge caveat that they seem focused on caste, and their anti-Hindu sentiment needs to seen as part of a series of lower-caste responses to the caste system, with some lower caste communities embracing a liberalized Hinduism, others rejecting it altogether, and many sitting somewhere in the middle. I could easily see anti-Hindu sentiment in Dalit nationalist movements described under Criticism of Hinduism.

There are only 4 articles in the main Misplaced Pages namespace that link to anti-Hindu, so I wouldn't worry too much about how people might react to redirects. We can just fix those 4 links if/when we make the change. Anirvan 20:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey I thought we had already decided on this! However, I agree that the anti-Hindu article is badly written. I will do my best to fix it up, but I need to look for some sources of info first.Anti-Hindu should discuss specific polemies and accusations made against Hindus, as well as anti-Hindu conspiracy hoaxes and claims that Hindus eat people, comparisons of Hindus with animals, claims that Hindus should be exterminated etc. Persecution already discusses some of the specific actions taken against theHindu people by anti-Hindu people/regimes etc.Netaji 01:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Anirav, can you see anti-semitism in criticism of jews.nids(♂) 05:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Nidish. Can you clarify your question? I'm not sure I understand. (Incidentally, my name is Anirvan, nor Anirav.) Thanks. Anirvan 06:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the miss-spellings. I was just saying that you cant put Anti-Hindu remarks in Criticism of Hinduism. If someone says that Hinduism is a religion of violence, than he is not criticisg hindus, nor is he persecuting them. He is just affected by a negative feeling towards hindus, i.e. Hinduphobia.nids(♂) 06:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Shall i remove the merge template, or are you still sceptical about it.nids(♂) 15:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I am removing the merge template for now. If you are not happy, discuss here instead of straightaway reinserting the template.nids(♂) 15:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Qasim doesn't really belong here

First off, my comments are limited to Qasim and the Arab period. The source for the assertions is a POV character. The quote used is being misrepresented, yes it says Hajaj was telling him Qasim to be more brutal but it was because of a military strategy, note the bottom line where he spells out why, that people will think you are weak.

Secondly the next assertion about Brahmanabad is again a misrepresentation, if one is happy to quote from the Chachnama as seen with the earlier quote, the next quote about Brahamanabad also from the Chachname which has been "paraphrased" goes so:

Those of the prisoners, who belonged to the classes of artisans, traders and common folk, were let alone, as Muhammad Kásim had extended his pardon to those people. He next came to the place of execution and in his presence ordered all the men belonging to the military classes to be beheaded with swords. It is said that about 6,000 fighting men were massacred on this occasion; some say 16,000. The rest were pardoned.

No doubt the killing happenned but it was very targeted. Generally Qasim built his army from derserters and turn coats, and he paid and rewarded them handsomely and pulled them into his administration. A person who set aside 3% of the state revenue for the Brahmins is not the one to make a point by going after the Hindus. All that had to wait for Ghazni and Turks to come on to the scene, even his successors were too weak and ruled in alliance with local powers. There are plenty of mainstream sources to attest the same. I've taken the issue up with Hkelkar at the Qasim page as well where the matter is detailed better. I propose that you remove it.--Tigeroo 21:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This is part of a broader debate regarding bin-Qasim and should be discussed at length in the article. I've been a bit busy so haven't had the opportunity to scan the refs cited there yet but I will.Hkelkar 11:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Anti-Hindu?

Should this be merged with the Anti-Hindu article? Even though the terms could indicate different things, the content in both articles is the same. --FK65 20:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This point has been discussed before.The two articles describe two different things. The anti-Hindu article describes anti-Hindu attitudes and views. This article describes specific acts against Hindus. They may be related, but are two different topics. There is ample precedent for this wrt anti-Semitism and Persecution of Jews, as well as anti-Christian and Persecution of Christians, anti-Muslim and Persecution of Muslims.Hkelkar 20:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I beleive above, that this was discussed.Bakaman _Bakatalk 20:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Fuller Mahmud Ghazni Utbi Quote

The example used to illustrate the event is terrible, try reading the source.

Account of the Affairs of Táníshar.

It came to the ears of the Sultán, that in the country of Táníshar there were many of that pe­culiar species of elephant, which they call Silmán. The prince of this country was high amongst the ungrateful deceivers, and of exalted relations amongst the rebellious and the sinful. Therefore he was one who merited that they should give him to drink a cup of the wine of the strokes of Islám’s sword, and that by means of the flame of the onset of her champions, they should strike into his es­sence the due of wickedness, so making him to know, that to drink their turns of this cup, and their turns of this calamity is the doom of the uni­versal Kaffir people, and that as other chiefs and deceivers of India have been sharers and partakers thereof, so his face could not be free, nor his path an asylum from the equitable sword; the Sultán thought good then to design this conquest, that thus the standard of Islám might be exalted by victory, and the figures of idols might be inverted by success in war. Accordingly he marched towards Táníshar with an army which had been educated in the chamber of the sacred war, and been trained by grace from on high, and contracted friendship with sword and spear, and obtained an acquaintance with infidel’s blood, and in the windings of those marches they passed a desert so dreadful, that a bird would not fly over its atmosphere, and a star would lose its way on its expanse, a place which nothing traversed but the wind, and on which nothing cast a shade except the Sun, with­out a report of water, or a vestige of habitation. But Providence granted aid, and they came out from that idolatrous and disgusting place, and ar­rived at (the enemy’s land). And before them they found a great river, a running stream full of water, lofty mountains, and the ground impracticable stone. Now the infidel sought his aid in those mountains, and became inspirited by their en­circling assistance. The army of the Sultán passed that water by two fords, and engaged the idolatrous forces on two sides. And when the king-falcon, the sun, hung his claws upon the cur­tain of his western retirement, (the day having been matured), the men of Islám made a charge, and scattered them all about the skirt of the rocks, and they took the path of flight and preservation from the heat of that battle and onset.And as for those stamping elephants and serried monsters which constituted the point of their confidence, and their remaining force, they left them on the spot, the Sultán’s elephants went after them, and brought them all to the Sultán’s halter-place. The army spilt so much blood that the water of that river was so full, and that stream so abundantly stained with gore, that it could not be used for purification and was forbidden to drinkers, and if the darkness of the night had not prevented it, not one of these wretches would have escaped with life,— all through the blessing which is upon Islám, and the wondrous religion of Muhammád, unto which by the kind promise of Heaven victory is pledged, and for the manifestation of whose sayings, the standard of the glorious Kurán speaks plainly, “He unto whom He sent his Apostle to guide him, and the faith of truth to lighten all to religion, even although the idolaters hate it.”

• One look the language, it's not a clinical factual account, it is am embellished prosaic account.
• Two note why it was forbidden, because it had become "haram" from being tainted by blood spilt on a watery battleground.
• Three it was a straight up pitched bloody battle, so assertion mass-slaughter is stretching the towards a POV.
• This is a bad example found across internet sites and used by lazy or polemic academics--Tigeroo 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well we are not talking about killing military personnel, but civilians.Hkelkar 21:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you avoid the WP:NOR here please.Hkelkar 21:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry the sources do not support the assertion of civilians, that claim is not verifiable from utbi as demonstrated above.--Tigeroo 22:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Also I have question who is Pradyumna Karan?? what are his credentials for such a sweeping statement that seems to not tally according to WP:RS, can we find a more representative fo the academic community consensus of the charecterization. I am not disagreeing with the possible excesses of Mahmud, but can we make the section a decent one.--Tigeroo 22:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Click meHkelkar 23:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Heres some more links: , ,.Bakaman _Bakatalk 23:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, read "Minorities in a Changing World" by Milton Leon Barron p54. Expressly states the beheadings and the offerring to crows.23:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)Hkelkar

Thats great, I had found a few books by Karan as well and they seemed centered more around social analysis and geography rather than being rooted in history. He even got the date wrong for Mahmud in his book, making his assertions a lit shaky. I haven't ever heard the version of skulls before, though Milton Leon Barron is interesting, so while they and holt and co provide opposing views, they both seem a little extreme ended to me and I think it may be better unless we can ascertain a greater concensus of that view to instead of making sweeping assertions of their view is representative of the community, that we dilineate and attach their name to the particular view, i.e Holt et al say "xxx" Milton says "xxx" Karan says "xxx".--Tigeroo 22:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That may not be such a bad idea. However, we need to confirm that the scholarly sources that we are citing here are representative of either school of thought.Hkelkar 22:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. do you mind including the page numbers for the cited books, makes it easier to thumb them because I found a reference from Saunders to Mahmud that says he linked his campaings of conquest to a jihad along side a peaceful penetration, so the matter is subtly different. Kakar Sudhir, I had read it and refrained from using it because it actual says the event was "chosen trauma" and makes no assertions or denials about the "mythology" and the charged currents surrounding the event not quite represented by the quote used to cite hundred of thousands killed.--Tigeroo 22:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have the page numbers written in the citations. Hang on though, I'll check.Hkelkar 22:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep, page numbers are all there in the citations in the article.Hkelkar 22:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Somnath casualties

The more common estimate I have usually encountered is 50,000, (note both ealrier comment and RV comment are based soley upon the content they are cited from) of the defenders charged Mahmud's forces and were massacred (or annhilated as in crushing defeat), just trying to source them or other numbers if they exist from some reliable source. I've found an online version of Eliot's book which commentates on the entire Somnath affair, and it seems the 50,000 number comes from the one singular source and so of dubious authenticity though it seems to be the only one. "I" wonder if the number of defenders was not inflated to make Mahmud's force of 30,000 seem the more heroic especially since when attacking a fortress a) cavalry has a limited effectiveness and b) the attackers typically as a rule of thumb always significantly outnumber the defending force. Anyhow that's my commentary, and I will leave the link and source for your review and comments.--Tigeroo 10:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Nadir Shah , Akbar ,Battle of Talikota,Third battle of Panipat

This article would be incomplete without an account of-

1)Nadir shah's massacre of Hindus 2)Akbar's killing of 35000 Hindu peasants of Chittor 3)Killing of Hindus by Deccani sultans after the Battle of Talikota 4)Killing of Maratha children and women (and rape and kidnap) after third battle of Panipat by Abdali

--Johnhardcastl 08:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Book

• “Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947”, Online Book Compiled for the SGPC by S. GURBACHAN SINGH TALIB —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.197.167.28 (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

We can't source to Hindu Unity since it is a "hate site", even if the book is reliable. I have replaced it with the Google Books link, which is better. Hkelkar 03:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow

I had no idea.NinaEliza 03:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

See Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947. There is even a wikipedia article on the book, as well as the author Gurbachan Singh Talib (a Sikh Scholar). The book is reliable.Hkelkar 03:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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