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Randroide Answers to "Next Step"

Guys, I do not see you taking steps to Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation.

I can not do this job because I always connect from "filtered" institutional net-access, and following those steps could result in new, undesired, controversial "truncation" of words by the software. I do not want that happenning.

Could you please follow the instructions in the link I provided?. Thank you.Randroide 10:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Randroide answers to New reference by Burgas00

Randroide 17:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC) At last we agree on something!...of course that the new section is a good idea: The false "suicidal" terrorists from PRISA will also be included there.

Come oooooon, boys, start writing that section. I do not want all the kudos for myself: The new proposed article is, by now, an effort made only by me.

But remember: NPOV and sources, all the sources. Just like me citing "El País" in the section about the doubts about the genuineness of the 13th bomb. Cheers Randroide 17:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

--Larean01 22:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, a good point. And all the remarks in COPE too. And the "moral certitudes" of Mariano Rajoy published in El Mundo.

Randroide 10:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC) I agree with you 100%, Larean.

Southofwatford 11:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC) What Randroide omits to mention on the section about the 13th bomb is that he only added balancing references when I insisted that he do so, the original version he created was entirely POV, as is much of the rest of the proposed article. Also, all the sources that he added from El Pais are only available to subscribers - NPOV it is not.

Randroide 13:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC) You are right, Southofwatford, in your "Randroide omits..." section.

If you have not subscription to "El País", I am sorry but that´s your problem. My "institutional" access also has some advantages, like paid access to "El País" (and many, many other publications and books). That´s one of the reasons for my exclusive use of "filtered" Internet accesss: It´s much easier for me to work here due to the easy availability of sources.

Do you see?. The truncation of words is offsett (I think) by better sources.

BTW, if you write under a "Randroide answers" section you are:

• Invading "my" space. I do not mind, really. But you are doing it.
• Risking new truncations on your messages. To avoid this, please write OUTSIDE "Randroide answers" sections.

If you think that the proposed article is POV, work in it to make it NPOV. The article is not "mine".

Southofwatford 14:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC) I'll take the risk of you truncating the reply and put it here, it's very short. The issue is not whether I subscribe to El País, its whether the people who read an article in the English Misplaced Pages subscribe to it. All sources used should be accessible to all readers of the article, putting in a source that readers will not be able to see just so you can claim the article is NPOV is, to my mind, completely unreasonable.

Randroide 14:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

All sources used should be accessible to all readers of the article

Very funny, Southofwatford.

I am going to follow this joke of yours.

• Please propose also the deletion of all books as sources, because, did you know?, there is always someone without this or that book.
• Delete all references to TV or radio stations, because that user in Brazil has no TV and no radio at home.
• Delete all the references in spanish, because, did you know?, there are users who know no spanish.

It´s a pleasure to read this kind of funny jokes, really. I had a good laugh.

User:Southofwatford 15:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC) How strange that you should find it so funny, after all most of the sources we are providing should enable users to find out more information about what is being sourced, so to deliberately choose sources that require those users to pay to see the information is not funny, it's simply bizarre. Equally, in the English Misplaced Pages I would argue that choosing a Spanish or other foreign language source when an equally valid source exists in English does not make sense, except perhaps to those who are too busy laughing - your cynicism is evident in your response.

Randroide 08:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC) Once you have finished wasting your time in personal attacks ("cynic") against me, could you please explain us why you havent answered my Answers to "Next Step" section and why you have done nothing so far about the issue?.

You are very bombastic with your "Moving Forward On The RFC" sections and the like, but when is time to really do something, you drop.

This is a common pattern in your behavior, Southofwatford. But I am not going to call you "cynic". You know: WP:FAITH, WP:CIV (and if you didn´t know, you know now).

I really, really would like to see you doing something about Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation, or adding something, anything to Controversies about the 11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings, or coming here with a new source or a new piece of data.

It would be wonderful to see your User doing something different to disputing with me in this Talk:Page, Southofwatford , because someone could think that you are here only to engage with me.

Burgass00 provided us a source, Larean with half dozen or a dozen of sources. So far, your "collaboration" here is to maintain us busy disputing with you.

BTW: I did not "deliberately choose sources that require those users to pay to see the information". Again you fail WP:FAITH. I just followed the links in my Internet access, which, yes, is filtered and truncates some words, but also gives me above average access to sources. You should be happy having a fellow wikipedian with privileged access to sources, Southofwatford, but you moan and groan about the issue. Why?. Following the WP:FAITH policy this behaviour of you is a riddle for me.

Southofwatford wrote: Equally, in the English Misplaced Pages I would argue that choosing a Spanish or other foreign language source when an equally valid source exists in English does not make sense

Are you going follow this piece of advice of yours and going to delete all the assertions on the article based in sources in spanish, Southofwatford?. Or are you going to start searching for alternative sources in english?.

I am not going to oppose that "interesting" course of action you suggested. Please, do it, Southofwatford: Put your money (i.e., your time) where your mouth is.

Southofwatford 08:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC) Randroide and the rules – once again you wave the rules in the face of other users whilst failing to apply them to yourself. The whole of your response here could be considered a direct personal attack.

I am, thankfully, not accountable to you or anyone else for how I freely choose to use what spare time I have. However, since you raised the question of why I am participating on this page I am happy to confirm that nothing has changed since the last time I responded on this issue; I continue to oppose the abuse of this article in Misplaced Pages for political objectives that were not achievable in the equivalent article in the Spanish Misplaced Pages. So no change there then.

On good faith – you responded to a reasonable point raised by me by attempting to treat it as a big joke and making it completely clear that you couldn’t care less if other users are not able to access the sources you provide – I am afraid the presumption of good faith did not survive such a contemptuous response.

On the issue of the RFC I would suggest that the archive pages you cited are a much more reliable and reputable source than the distorted account you try to present here.

Your aggressive, bullying manner as usual does nothing to improve your case, and as usual I will remind you that I am not affected by it.

New reference by Burgas00

Any comment on this?

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/policia/desbarata/montaje/sostener/teoria/conspirativa/torno/11-M/elpepunac/20061202elpepinac_14/Tes

--Burgas00 18:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Randroide 18:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC) Excellent job, Burgas00. This collaboration of yours is most welcome. I suggest you to wait a few days ("El Mundo" will also tell another version) a to add this history to Controversies#The_13th_bomb.

...but if you want to add the text now, I am not going to object.

Any sourced statement written in NPOV is welcome by me. Cheers.

--larean01 13:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Burgas00: ABC is being far more interesting than El Pais. What we know today is that at least two corrupt policemen conspired to plant evidence in FAVOUR of the conspiracy theory (they are accused by a judge of fabricating and denouncing a false crime), and that El Mundo swallowed the story whole... or worse: ABC goes as far as reporting that El Mundo would have been involved in the fabrication. There goes the credibility of El Mundo as a reliable source. At the very least, this shows the way El Mundo corroborates its stories.

Yes, here is another article appeared on ABC on this trama policial. Quite embarassing really. http://www.abc.es/20061203/nacional-terrorismo/intervienen-documento-escrito-disena_200612030251.html

--Burgas00 21:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Southofwatford 14:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC) Well the last place to put this would be the section on the 13th bomb, based on the published information there is absolutely no demonstrated connection between the two cases, which does not of course mean that El Mundo hasn't tried to invent one. Perhaps it should go in a section on "media interference in the judicial process"?

--Larean01 16:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC) Yes, I was thinking about that. And that is a good section you are proposing Southofwatford.

Anyone found anything on El Mundo's version of the story? The paper seems to be keeping suspiciously quiet about all of this.--Burgas00 17:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

--Larean01 22:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

El Mundo has answered with a predictable smokescreen, crying foul because a "key" person in the investigation (their informer, Parrilla) is in jail. They have also sent out another smokescreen with a completely absurd but perfectly well-timed complaint by Cartagena, the imam who was controlled by Parrilla. You can find the links here:

http://foro.desiertoslejanos.com/viewtopic.php?id=191&p=8

With due respect, I do not find these news as very imporant. We must not fall in their trap. What El Mundo is doing is so evident that the new revelations have the same relevance that a new proof for the earth being round. This issue can be good as a footnote in the discussion of the arbitration but I do not think it is convenient to include in the main article since discuss something is to accept that exists a doubt. All this must be put in the article about Pedro J because is more about him than about 11-M.--Igor21 12:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

--Larean01 21:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Igor, with respect, I think you are wrong. This is very important. It shows the "quality" of El Mundo's reporting, at the very least: they believe a single source without corroboration and they negotiate the contents of the news with corrupt policemen. And some sources tell me this is only the tip of the iceberg. El Mundo has basically destroyed its credibility. I think that is a significant event.

And Pedro J. replies: http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/12/06/espana/1165418489.html?a=6a18a6aa166fe2881ed58b67897c617c&t=1165426325

--Burgas00 17:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Southofwatford 10:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC) This is the kind of defence that says "Nothing that I do can be considered to be wrong as long as I can suggest that somebody else somewhere has done something that is worse". El Mundo seems to have knowingly destroyed a criminal investigation in progress so that it can make an entirely unsubstantiated connection between it and the Madrid bombings. Just further confirmation that they are not acting as independent journalists reporting on events, thay have now become active, interested, participants in those events.

This episode with the rest of episodes is very necesary to show that El Mundo does not belong to the set of "reliable sources" for any meaning of this expresion. However, in the final article, the presence of these people and their "investigations" (i.e. inmoral schemes, clumsy manipulations and intentional fabrications) should not have room. The main characters must be the victims, the killers, the people who helped the injured and the policemen who solved the case on-the-fly. The article about Pedro J is the place for explaining at lenght the feats of this suburbial citizen Kane.--Igor21 12:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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