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Revision as of 17:59, 23 December 2019

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This article was nominated for deletion on 28 March 2016. The result of the discussion was keep.

Sources that help establish notability and should be incorporated for neutrality

• Hope, Warren; Holston, Kim (2009). The Shakespeare Controversy: An Analysis of the Authorship Theories (2nd. ed.). McFarland. pp. 128-129. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

• Edmondson, Paul; Wells, Stanley (2013). Shakespeare Beyond Doubt: Evidence, Argument, Controversy. Cambridge UP. pp. 54-60. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

• Carnegie, David; Taylor, Gary (2012). The Quest for Cardenio: Shakespeare, Fletcher, Cervantes, and the Lost Play. Oxford UP. pp. 67-69. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Two of these I found accidentally while trying to find anything else by the publisher of The Truth Will Out, so I'm curious as to why they haven't appeared yet. @RalphWinwood: how did you not find these? Or if you did, why did you not incorporate them? Ian.thomson (talk) 03:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for deletion of sentence

Though this is properly sourced, it is false; there is no actual documentary evidence to support this assertion: As a boy, Neville was educated within the household of Sir William Cecil, Lord Burghley.

I propose deleting it unless someone knows of an independent documentary source that suggests that this is correct. Perhaps someone can give me guidance in how to properly resolve an issue such as this.

Kfein (talk) 05:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

I deleted the two references. It should be added back only if an independent source can be found that refers to primary documentary evidence supporting this assertion. Kfein (talk) 07:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for modifying initial paragraphs

I do not think we need to go into detail on the code evidence in the introductory paragraph. It is enough to mention the initial discovery. Then the code evidence can be combined into its own separate section of the article. This will make it read better and allow the article to put more details to the forefront. Kfein (talk) 00:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I moved it to the code section.Kfein (talk) 04:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Clarifying who is meant by "Shakespeare"

This small amendent was originally made on 22nd Oct as part of a larger edit, which was reverted by Kfein on 23rd. I should have done it as a separate edit, because there is a good reason for amending the wording. In the SAQ “Shakespeare” is used as the name of the author but is non-specific as a reference to a living person, since his identity is what is in dispute. My amendment clarifies which living person is meant. Terpsichore47 (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree the article should be as unambiguous as possible. Thank you for this edit! Kfein (talk) 05:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Extending quote and citing source for its implications

My revisions/additions to this passage made on 22 Oct were undone by Kfein on the grounds that it was “unsourced original research”. However, the existing version could be subject to the same action, since unsourced original research is exactly what it was before I touched it. If any use has been made of Jonson’s Epigram 109 in extant sources for the purposes of arguing Neville’s authorship, those sources were not cited. In my new revision, I’ve done three things. First, I’ve found and cited a source. Second, in the unrevised text of the article the idea that Epigram 109 refers to Neville’s poetic muse, not Jonson’s, is merely covert. But the source’s claim is explicit, and I’ve worded my revision to make that clear. Finally, I’ve extended the quotation from the epigram. The first line is only a fragment of a complete statement covering three lines. Quoting all three puts readers in a better position to decide for themselves whose poetic muse is being referred to.Terpsichore47 (talk) 10:53, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Kfein (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

What do you think about adding in a link to the whole epigram? https://books.google.com/books?id=2J1TAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false This source has some background info as well. Kfein (talk) 04:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for adding a section on the Northumberland Manuscript Flyleaf

I propose adding a section on the Northumberland Manuscript Flyleaf. I know it is mentioned in The Truth Will Out. And this source from John Casson is relevant: http://www.bl.uk/eblj/2018articles/pdf/ebljarticle112018.pdf

And this book is relevant: https://archive.org/details/cu31924013117480/

Does anyone know any other good reference sources about the document in general or its connection to Henry Neville? Kfein (talk) 04:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

This seems relevant: https://lostplays.folger.edu/Asmund_and_CorneliaKfein (talk) 03:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for adding information on the dedication of A King and No King

This source has a lot of information on Henry Neville's connection with 'A King and No King' Lesser, Zachary. “Mixed Government and Mixed Marriage in ‘A King and No King’: Sir Henry Neville Reads Beaumont and Fletcher.” ELH, vol. 69, no. 4, 2002, pp. 947–977. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/30032051.

The dedication can be seen here and is in the public domain: https://archive.org/details/kingnokingacteda00beau_1/page/n7

I suggest we upload the image and include it in the article with information taken from Lesser's article. Casson and Rubinstein also reference this, is it referenced in other books about Neville?

Kfein (talk) 04:41, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Found a new RS about Neville books at Audley End

The sidebar of this: https://exhibitions.lib.cam.ac.uk/hoby/

Has:

Hoby’s books came to be at Audley End because of his connection with the Neville family, who owned a house in Berkshire called Billingbear. Hoby’s family seat was also in Berkshire, at Bisham Abbey, a property which he inherited on the death of his half-brother, Sir Philip Hoby, in 1558. At some point, Hoby’s books were moved the short distance from Bisham Abbey to Billingbear, and then, once its owner, Richard Aldworth Neville (1750–1825), second Lord Braybrooke, had inherited Audley End in 1802, they were taken across to Essex.

Kfein (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of sources for this page

I have posted a question about the sources used for this article at the Misplaced Pages reliable sources noticeboard. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Stuart Kells recent book Shakespeare's Library: Unlocking the Greatest Mystery in Literature has a great deal on the Nevillean theory that would be a good source to start with to update the article.Kfein (talk) 01:57, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that is a good source that passes WP:RS. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:42, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

• Noticed this at WP:RS/N. There is way too much fringe sourcing here and so I'm placing a POV tag until the article can be rebuilt with decent sources. Alexbrn (talk) 00:41, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Additional Possible Sources

• https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/05/shakespeare-himself-may-have-annotated-hamlet-book-claims-researcher
• Stuart Kells - Shakespeare's Library: Unlocking the Greatest Mystery in Literature
• https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244018823465
• Birmingham Post: Book claims to have found the Bard's lost works March 18, 2009
• The Western Mail: Did he or didn't he? That is the question October 6, 2009 | Western Mail (Cardiff, Wales) Author: Tony Woolway
• Yorkshire Post: 'Earliest Shakespeare plays' claim by author March 18, 2009 | Yorkshire Post (England)

This is apparently not a RS: Bard blood between the Princes April 28, 2014 | Courier Mail, The/Sunday Mail, The/QWeekend Magazine (Brisbane, Australia) Author: DAILY MAIL | Page: 14 Kfein (talk) 04:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of content

@RalphWinwood: you are removing well-sourced content with no edit summary. What's going on? Alexbrn (talk) 13:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexbrn: No Alex. YOU are removing well-sourced content. This page was published in 2016. Some editors with a Stratfordian bias tried to have it removed but an adjudication resolved to retain it. It will be clear to anyone who investigates your edits (removing verifiable facts) that you are trying to impose your own bias on this article. Please undo them.RalphWinwood (talk) 13:18, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages must have a "Stratfordian bias" as it mirrors respectable mainstream scholarship. This is what we call neutral. I shall raise a query at WP:FT/N. Alexbrn (talk) 13:26, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alexbrn: Please Google Tonm Reedy and you'll find he's the most outspoken defender of the orthodox view of Shakespeare authorship on the web. He was also the prime mover in the failed attempt to have the article deleted in 2016 (please see discussion ). Ian Thompson also participated in this failed attempt. The article has not materially changed since that time. This is not about neutrality.RalphWinwood (talk) 14:05, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

It's been poor for a while then. This is common enough on Misplaced Pages, but what has that got to do with anything? The article was a horrible WP:PROFRINGE mess and now that consensus is widening following the WP:RS/N thread it's going to get improved by dumping the original research and fringe sources, and using good RS in line with the WP:PAGs. That will be progress. Alexbrn (talk) 14:25, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Obviously these edits were introduced with the intention of changing the neutral stance of the article. They do not give an unbiased and fair description of the Nevillean theory, which is the purpose of the article.

Tom Reedy is not just a highly interested partisan in this debate, he also has personally and publicly attacked me on the Oxfraud Facebook group where he is an administrator, and another administrator of that group, Mike Leadbetter called me "schizophrenic" on the same post. This happened within the last two weeks. Go to the Shakespeare Authorship wiki entry for more discussion of previous personal attacks on me.

This has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages standards of editorship, it's a coordinated effort to push a specific agenda. Look at the Misplaced Pages discussion of the reliable sources for this page, created by Tom Reedy, the foul language used and the ridiculous bias involved in that discussion.

What's happened here is the Wiki article has been rewritten as a summary of a book review written by a biased person 13 years ago. David Kathman is not a biased observer, he is a harsh partisan in these debates. So focusing on his book review so heavily is in itself non-neutral.

I provided on this Talk page a recent RS that summarizes recent developments in research into the Nevillean theory. None of that content is included, and that is not used as an RS to support the content that was already on the wiki entry. This clearly shows the biased intent of these edits.

There is an active Talk section here. None of these edits were made in consultation with anyone else. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be about building consensus, not doing radical rewrites of an established page without consultation with anyone else.

This is a shameful misuse of Misplaced Pages to push personal agendas by harsh partisans in this debate. I am a supporter of the Nevillean theory, but I have tried to engage with this in a proper manner, using the Talk section to build consensus before making major edits, and working to identify high quality sources.

It truly is shameful how people are trying to use Misplaced Pages to push their own personal agendas. Misplaced Pages should reflect the scholarly consensus on these issues, but it is supposed to be NEUTRAL. By removing factual information from this article, it is no longer NEUTRAL. Also, by interspersing the views of one extremely harsh partisan (David Kathman), it loses its neutrality as well.

Kathman in his book review de-emphasizes the strongest arguments for Neville's authorship since he is a harsh partisan in this debate. So by relying on him as the main source, all of the strongest arguments are ignored, because he did not include those in his book review -- since he is a harsh partisan.

Fortunately, these edits and the background to them, the ignoring of the Talk discussion on here, all of this is public record for all time. So everyone can see what happened and why.

Here is a summary of recent research into Henry Neville's authorship. These are the points that should be included in this article: http://www.shakespeareanauthorshiptrust.org.uk/pages/candidates/neville.htm

If harsh partisans are allowed to use Misplaced Pages to push their own agendas, it becomes a soapbox for their views, rather than an unbiased and neutral encyclopedia. People come to this article looking to learn about the Nevillean theory, not to be fed an impoverished version of it designed to push a certain agenda.Kfein (talk) 16:10, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

This "Tom Reedy" person is not somebody we're citing; how is he relevant? As to Kathman he is published in the Shakespeare Quarterly which is about as fine an imprimatur for Shakespeare scholarship as we could wish. Misplaced Pages reflects accepted knowledge as reflected in reliable sources, so this is a perfect source. The Shakespeare Authorship Trust looks cranky and is not what Misplaced Pages calls a reliable source. So far as I can see, all serious academic sources treat the Nevillean theory with snorting derision, but if other GOOD sources have a different take we should certainly use them - but we ain't going to be indulging fringe source as that would be counter to our mission, as the consensus at WP:RS/N made explicit. Alexbrn (talk) 16:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

This "Tom Reedy" person has posted on this Talk page and initiated the discussion of the sources for this article which led to your edits. David Kathman is an extremely harsh partisan in this issue, he is not a neutral authority. I am not arguing with using him as a source, I am arguing with the bizarre over-emphasis of an article written so long ago that is biased to begin with and does not incorporate any of the research done in the last 15 years.

I posted a good reliable source on the Talk page BEFORE you made your wholesale rewrite of the article. You did not consult it, which just shows the lack of neutrality and attempt to bias the article. You are obviously an extremely biased individual with an agenda of your own. Or you are some type of sock puppet. Likely both.

It is obvious what is going on here, and posterity can see it. We have a record here for all time. That's the great thing about Misplaced Pages.

The "mission" of this article is to provide a neutral and full description of the Nevillean theory of Shakespeare authorship. It is not to push an interpretation of that theory. It should reflect the scholarly consensus, but the main purpose of the article is to describe the theory.

The Shakespeare authorship trust is not an RS, but they are the leading organization in the field of Shakespeare Authorship, so their description of the Neville theory is a good one to refer to for a summary of the latest research. Trying to ossify the research as it stood 15 years ago is just a form of biased presentation. But even there, the presentation is biased and purposely misleading.Kfein (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Your attempts to personalize this discussion are unwelcome and disruptive, and if continued will likely lead to you being sanctioned. Please WP:FOC. I used the best sources from known high quality sources as returned by my library search engine. If there are other good sources, propose them. But we're not going to be using fringey web sites. Alexbrn (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not concerned about being sanctioned by anyone. My name is Ken Feinstein. I am personalizing this because I have been subject to harassment by Tom Reedy and Mike Leadbetter, two Misplaced Pages editors, and I need to create a record of that. I made a similar record of it on the Shakespeare Authorship wiki page and I am making it here as well.

The Talk page of this article had a discussion of reliable sources BEFORE you made your edits. You ignored that, which shows your lack of good faith in your edits. You also did not discuss your major edits on the Talk page before making them. It shows you had no intention of working to build consensus; you are only interested in pushing a biased agenda. Kfein (talk) 17:01, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

The need to undo all of the recent edits

The recent edits by Alexbrn need to be undone. Each paragraph they propose to add should be posted in the Talk and discussed until a consensus is reached. In addition, each proposed deletion or change should be posted in Talk and discussed until a consensus is reached.

The edits as they stand are amateurish and not up to Misplaced Pages standards for accuracy and neutrality. Look at this for instance:

Another manuscript produced in evidence is the Northumberland Manuscript, a piece of paper which contains many scrawled names of figures of the age, including Shakespeare's, Francis Bacon's, and the word "Nevill". The page has been used by Baconians as supposed evidence for Bacon being the "true" author of Shakespeare's works; James and Rubinstein argue that the presence of Neville's names means that it is Neville who is the true author, and that it is evidence Neville "practised Shakespeare's signature."

This is not an accurate description of the Northumberland Manuscript, of what it contains, of what is written on the flyleaf, etc. The reference to "Baconians" is completely irrelevant to this article and is simply introduced to harm the neutrality of the article, as the scare quotes emphasize. The paragraph doesn't even really make sense. Each paragraph needs to be sourced properly and corrected for errors before it is added to the page.

I do not want to over-dramatize what has happened here. The simple solution is to undo all of the edits, and then Alexbrn can propose each and every change one by one, and the Misplaced Pages community can reach consensus on it and then move forward. That is the proper way to handle this.

Alexbrn likely is not familiar with Misplaced Pages best practices, and we do not want to discourage them from editing this page. So I think it is important to welcome their edits, just to help them understand the consensus process required before making major changes to an article.

Kfein (talk) 17:48, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Nobody needs to ask permission to edit this or any other page. It is you who doesn't have a grasp on Misplaced Pages policies, despite being asked several times to acquaint yourself with them. This page needs to be rewritten using acceptable sources, not the fringe books that proposed the original "theory". I haven't had time, and I probably won't have the time (or the interest, really, given the low readership this page gets), and anyone can participate. And your rant in the above section is entirely irrelevant. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:59, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

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