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Revision as of 03:56, 20 December 2019 editThe Four Deuces (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers50,510 edits →This article is a mess← Previous edit Revision as of 12:56, 30 December 2019 edit undoJonpatterns (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users11,422 edits →This article is a mess: replyNext edit →
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:: There's a problem in the the early timeline too, for example the comment, "In 1900–1920, liberals called themselves progressives." But progressivism and modern U.S. liberalism are distinct, with the latter developing in the 1930s, long after the Progressive Era. ] (]) 03:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC) :: There's a problem in the the early timeline too, for example the comment, "In 1900–1920, liberals called themselves progressives." But progressivism and modern U.S. liberalism are distinct, with the latter developing in the 1930s, long after the Progressive Era. ] (]) 03:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

::What adds to confusion is that ] covers a lot of similar ground; perhaps necessarily. But if Modern Liberalism is mainly a term for changes 1930 - 1960 then the article could be reduced in scope with the excess parts merged with the fore mentioned article? ] (]) 12:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

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Editing the Modern Liberalism in the U.S. template.

I've been trying to add some names to the template of "Modern liberalism in the United States." However, I, for some unknown reason, am not able to do so, because I don't see the "V-T-E" options for the template on it. I'd like somebody to help me fix this problem. Thank you for your understanding & cooperation. Mr. Brain (talk) 00:48, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

summary statement in lede

Thanks for the edit, Rick Norwood. I've further tweaked it because, while I see what you were getting at with your wording, I think some of it has unintended implications. Do modern American liberals necessarily oppose privatization of healthcare? Taken literally, wouldn't that imply favoring nationalization of healthcare, and isn't that something about which liberals could reasonably take either position? Saying liberals oppose privatization of education is tantamount to saying that they're opposed to private and parochial schools. Likewise, wouldn't opposing privatization of welfare entail being against private charity? On the flip side, only die-hard libertarians support privatization of criminal justice, if by that we mostly mean policing, though privatization of prisons seems to have mainstream supporters on the right.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your formulations, but what do you think about my attempt to get at many of the same points? I've tried to word it in a fair-minded way, implying neither criticism nor uncritical endorsement of those positions. And by citing the Democratic Party Platform in support of those claims, I don't have any axe to grind about how liberal the Democratic Party is, but it's certainly the most mainstream of the liberal-leaning political parties in the United States, and I couldn't think of a better citation for those claims. Jbening (talk) 23:24, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Or maybe we should parallel language from the Overview section, such as, "The American modern liberal philosophy strongly endorses public spending on programs such as education, health care, and welfare," and, "Modern American liberals generally believe that national prosperity requires government management of the macroeconomy..." Jbening (talk) 23:30, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
While liberals are closer to those views than conservatives, that really hasn't been the liberal position for the last fifty years. Incidentally, many liberals support privatization of education, prisons, etc. (Privatization means the transfer public services to private ownership or control. It doesn't mean just allowing private property to remain under private ownership.) TFD (talk) 05:56, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you've been following American politics closely enough. Democratic politicians frequently criticize Betty Devos's efforts to use government money to fund private schools, especially religious schools, objecting that it violates separation of church and state. They have also pointed out that private prisons are often corrupt, and are a way of warehousing unwanted minorities, and forcing them to work for low wages. This practice has been called "slavery" by some liberals, especially Black liberals. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:06, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

I said some not all. Cory Booker and Rahm Emmanuel for example. My point is that these are not what define the distinction between liberal and conservative but that the liberals are more likely to tend one way on the issue than conservatives. There is no distinction similar to that between royalists and jacobins in the French revolution. TFD (talk) 20:52, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Why aren't direct quotations in the article's text placed in quotation marks?

Just looked at this article for the first time. The second and third sentences in the opening paragraph are a direct, verbatim quotation from a footnoted source, but those sentences are not in quotation marks in the text. Is there a Misplaced Pages policy that approves this practice? Anywhere else it would be plagiarism, and footnoting the direct quotation would not be considered sufficient. Why not put the sentences in quotation marks in the text?Redound (talk) 16:58, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I added them. In any case, we need to review the lead since it is ambiguous whether it refers to the shared ideology of what are today called liberals and conservatives or just liberals. Conservatives with the exception of a radical fringe have of course accepted modern liberal policies such as income tax, the end of the gold standard, and social security. TFD (talk) 22:41, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

This article is a mess

It loses the thread after the 1960s, shifting focus from liberalism in the United States to simply listing issues in quasi-chronological order (environmental and labor politics by no means faded after the 1970s, or if they did, they very much have reversed that now.)

Worst of all is the "Return of Protest Politics" section, which not only ends in 2016 for some unfathomable reason (regardless of your thoughts on it, the Women's March undoubtedly is one of the most notable instances of protest politics this decade, and is more representative of "modern liberalism" than most of the protests in the section) but is mostly a recap of the Bush and Obama presidencies interspersed with mention of a few protests -- primarily Occupy and Black Lives Matter -- that are not neatly classified as "liberal" (as opposed to left, or mixed in the case of Occupy). The mention of Black Lives Matter is also accompanied, for some reason, by a quote criticizing the movement by someone of dubious relevance.

And really, the fact that the timeline of this article ends in 2016 is bizarre. I'm not even just talking about the Trump administration; the 2016 Democratic primary and now the 2020 primary were in part referendums on what kind of "liberalism," if any, the party would define itself around. Gnomingstuff (talk) 13:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Then fix it. I agree though there is a problem. Modern liberalism was an agent of change in the 1930s to 1960s. It's not clear what it means today. Is it the establishment or progressive Democrats? TFD (talk) 20:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Given that it is a very charged topic I thought it would be best to bring it up on the talk page instead of slashing and burning out of nowhere. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
There's a problem in the the early timeline too, for example the comment, "In 1900–1920, liberals called themselves progressives." But progressivism and modern U.S. liberalism are distinct, with the latter developing in the 1930s, long after the Progressive Era. TFD (talk) 03:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
What adds to confusion is that Liberalism in the United States covers a lot of similar ground; perhaps necessarily. But if Modern Liberalism is mainly a term for changes 1930 - 1960 then the article could be reduced in scope with the excess parts merged with the fore mentioned article? Jonpatterns (talk) 12:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
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