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Lede

Over at Talk:Young_Earth_creationism#Is_YEC_a_religious_belief_or_more?, we began a successful conversation about making a more coherent and well-sourced lede. One of the issues raised was that the lede over here is not very good or well-sourced either. So, now I would like to take on this.

As we discussed over there, there are basically two big definitions of "creationism" -- one is an older more theological definition and the other is a modern form of anti-scientific arguments meant to bolster particular religious beliefs (not just Abrahamic, mind you, as the term is increasingly used in reference to Hinduism and even Indigenous religions). I think we can achieve a better summary of this, but it also might require reworking some of this article as well.

I hope this gets the conversation started and we can workshop, successfully, a change to our lede.

jps (talk) 23:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

At the risk of starting a conversation with myself, I reread the excellent introduction to the subject of creationism over at the SEM: . I think that I would like to start with a broad and a narrow definition and focus on the narrow. This might require a completely new "introductory" section. I leave it here for others to opine on this. jps (talk) 12:44, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Broad versus narrow creationism resources

Aside from Numbers (already in the article), here are some possibly useful references:

• Ruse, Michael (2018). "Creationism". Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Retrieved 26 April 2019. First published Sat Aug 30, 2003; substantive revision Fri Sep 21, 2018 {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• "Creationism". www.pbs.org. Retrieved 2019-04-17.
• "Dealing With "Scientific" Creationism". American Humanist Association. Retrieved 2019-04-17.
• "The Creation/Evolution Continuum". NCSE. Retrieved 2019-04-17.
• Greener, Mark (2007-12). "Taking on creationism. Which arguments and evidence counter pseudoscience?". EMBO Reports. 8 (12): 1107–1109. doi:10.1038/sj.embor.7401131. ISSN 1469-221X. PMC PMCPMC2267227. PMID 18059309. {{cite journal}}: Check |pmc= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Pew Research Center; Inquiries, DC 20036 USA202-419-4300 | Main202-419-4349 | Fax202-419-4372 | Media (2009-02-04). "Overview: The Conflict Between Religion and Evolution |". Retrieved 2019-04-19. {{cite web}}: Missing |author2= (help); Unknown parameter |city= ignored (|location= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

jps (talk) 13:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

• Scott, Eugenie C. (3 August 2009). Evolution Vs. Creationism: An Introduction. Univ of California Press. pp. 57–75. ISBN 978-0-520-26187-7. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

This broader overall definition, like Ruse and the NCSE continuum, includes mainstream religious acceptance of evolution – "special creation" draws the distinction between that and the anti-evolution which became commonly known as creationism in the 1960s, though the mainstream still has a claim to be creationist in a broad sense. . dave souza, talk 19:38, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Scott (2009) broad and narrow definitions

creationism has a broad and a narrow definition. Broadly, creationism refers to the idea of creation by a supernatural force. To Christians, Jews, and Muslims, this supernatural force is God; to people of other religions, it is other deities. The creative power may be unlimited, like that of the Christian God, or it may be restricted to the ability to affect certain parts of nature, such as heavenly bodies or certain kinds of living things.
The term creationism to many people connotes the theological doctrine of special creationism: that God created the universe essentially as we see it today, and that this universe has not changed appreciably since that creation event. Special creationism includes the idea that God created living things in their present forms, and it reflects a literalist view of the Bible. It is most closely associated with the endeavour of "creation science," which includes the view that the universe is only 10,000 years old. But the most important aspect of special creation is the idea that things are created in their present forms. In intelligent design creationism, for example, God is specially required to create complex structures such as the bacterial flagellum or the body plans of animals of the Cambrian period, even though many if not most intelligent design proponents accept an ancient Earth.(Scott 2009, p. 57)

added by . .. dave souza, talk 19:42, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Current wording and workshop

I am not a particularly big fan of this construction. I think we should stick with paragraph one being a definition, but then we should spend some time differentiating between narrow and broad definitions and break out to a little more global look (with nods towards things such as Islamic creationism, Hindu creationism, and American Indian creationism, perhaps). This would probably be a good thing to have an entire section on in the article. I think that paragraph two could do nicely to round-out a lede, but a bit more summative and less "listy". Finally, I think that paragraph three should likely be in the body rather than in the lede. jps (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, fully agree – getting the broad and narrow definitions in at the start will be a great improvement, para 3. is wrong about "first use" as CD used the terms "creationist" and "creationists" in his 1842 essay. Ron Numbers has an interesting analysis of how the meaning of the term (and of "the ordinary view of creation") changed with time, so this needs coverage in the body text and a brief summary in the lede. . dave souza, talk 19:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Etymology online has some interesting history of the term as well: . jps (talk) 19:02, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Paragraph One: Definition

Creationism is the religious belief that the universe and life originated "from specific acts of divine creation", as opposed to through natural processes, such as evolution.

Reworking according to discussion below.

Creationism is the religious belief that the material world (particularly the universe, Earth, life, and humanity) was divinely created. Creationism is often contrasted with and opposed to the scientific explanations for the origins and development of the material world through natural processes, most famously evolution.

Reworking including broader sense

Creationism is the religious belief that nature, and aspects such as the universe, Earth, life, and humanity, originated with supernatural acts of divine creation. In a broad sense, this belief is held by all practitioners of theistic faiths including the Abrahamic religions, whose deity is transcendent, beyond nature, and immanent, ready to intervene in the world. More specifically, creationism commonly refers to the doctrine of special creation which holds that God created things in their present forms, and opposes scientific explanations for the origins and development of the material world through natural processes such as evolution.

Discussion

• Is the belief always religious? In fact, the connection to religion be it organized or otherwise is usually secondary in our sources perhaps because of the equivocation between the two different definitions. Indeed, the broader definition is somewhat doctrinal, but the narrower definition relies on any acceptance of creation myth interpretations that act as foundational and fundamental descriptions of the origins of various aspects of the material world. This could be part of one's religion, but it could simply be an acceptance of a literal mythology independent of a religion as well, in principle. jps (talk) 16:01, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Scott's broad definition of "the idea of creation by a supernatural force" leaves that aside, the crucial point is supernatural creation. That's not uncommon in religions, theoretically the idea might be held without religion but we'd need a source discussing it. Either way, I think the religion issue is a bit of a distraction to the broad definition. . dave souza, talk 18:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Turns out that Jerry Coyne has written an analysis of this point. Coyne takes the side of those who argue that religion is the thing while he points to a lot of others who oppose his perspective as saying otherwise: . I think it may be important that we do not take explicit sides in this debate, though I think the people who identify religion as the proximate cause are likely correct. jps (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• Widespread use of the term creationism in its modern meaning only goes back to the 1970s, so think we could say that it's become associated with the theological doctrine of special creation. . . dave souza, talk 18:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
  • That seems reasonable. jps (talk) 14:58, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• The wording that the universe and life originated "from specific acts of divine creation" (quote marks in the original) looks rather too specific, for example Creationism (soul) specifically discusses the origin of the soul, ID can accommodate confining creation to specific complex features while accepting evolution of others. dave souza, talk 18:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, this seems problematic. I think we need to be more general. "Aspects of the material world" or something like that with specific reference to the most common ones: universe, Earth, life, and humans, for example? jps (talk) 14:58, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
• Reworking including broader sense covers the wide and narrow senses in the first paragraph, and the second paragraph can then focus on the continuum: that ranges from the most literal forms of YEC, through OEC to theistic evolution. Theistic evolution itself covers a range of beliefs is both creationism in the broad sense, and overlaps with creationism in the narrower sense. More later! . . dave souza, talk 15:18, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I think we need to say that special creation includes more than just the creation of living things. It also includes, for example, starlight problem creation of distance astronomical objects. jps (talk) 16:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Fair point, think it works to just say "holds that God created things in their present forms" as the ending relating to evolution implies life anyway. Was a bit unsure about including Ruse's point "whose deity is transcendent, beyond nature, and immanent, ready to intervene in the world" but it gives extra context. . dave souza, talk 17:21, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Paragraph Two: Provision for the creationist movement from anti-evolution (narrow definition)

Creationism covers a spectrum of views including evolutionary creationism, but the term is commonly used for literal creationists who reject various aspects of science, and instead promote pseudoscientific beliefs. Literal creationists base their beliefs on a fundamentalist reading of religious texts, including the creation myths found in Genesis and the Quran. For young Earth creationists, these beliefs are based on a literalist interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative and rejection of the scientific theory of evolution. Literalist creationists believe that evolution cannot adequately account for the history, diversity, and complexity of life on Earth.

Reworking

Creationism, it its broadest sense, includes a spectrum of views including forms that accept the reality of biological evolution, but the term is commonly applied to believers in special creation which demands that key aspects of material reality were created as they exist today by divine action. The most famous of these creationists are fundamentalist Christians who believe in a literal interpretation of the creation myths found in the Bible's Book of Genesis. These people distinguish themselves by rejecting certain aspects of science, and instead promote various pseudoscientific beliefs. The most visible creationists adhere either to young Earth creationism or to intelligent design; both beliefs reject parts of the scientific theory of evolution and have been the subject of ongoing political controversy. Less prominently, there are also members of the Islamic, Hindu,, and American Indian faiths who are creationists.

Reworking outlining types

Though the creation–evolution controversy is not commonly misunderstood to be two opposing sides, creationism includes a wide variety of beliefs, some of which accept the reality of biological evolution, with multiple intermediate positions significantly contradicting each other. Christian creationism can be visualised as ranging along a spectrum of types grouped in relation to extent of Biblical literalism, the age of the Earth, and explanations ranging from special creation to material evolution.
At the most literal extreme, creationist beliefs include flat Earth and geocentrism. In the 1970s, young Earth creationism (YEC) became the commonest form, and was repackaged as creation science with the aim of getting "equal time" for creation in public school science classes. Previously, since the late 18th century most educated people had accepted that geology showed an ancient Earth, and this was harmonized with the Bible's Genesis creation narrative by gap and day-age readings, as held by most of the Christian fundamentalists whose anti-evolution movement succeeded in removing evolution from school textbooks. Most modern old Earth creationism can be classed as progressive creationism, accepting the sequence of life over geological time, but explaining it by multiple creation events. Going further, evolutionary creationism takes the theological position that God has active involvement in evolution and its proponents choose to be called creationist, while accepting evolutionary science.
In 1987, creation science was ruled to be religion and not science, and hence unconstitutional to teach in U.S. science classes, its arguments were repackaged as intelligent design with Biblical references removed or played down. Other forms of neo-creationism have continued attempts to oppose science education about evolution.
Religion is reconciled with science by theistic evolution, though this covers a wide range of positions about the extent to which God intervenes. Agnostic evolution takes no position on the existence of God, materialist evolution holds that the supernatural does not exist.
Creationism goes beyond Christianity, there are also members of the Hebrew, Islamic, Hindu,, and American Indian faiths who are creationists.

Discussion

Regarding the broad definition of creationism, what the "Scott 2009" source says is "Broadly, creationism refers to the idea of creation by a supernatural force.", not "includes a spectrum of views including forms that accept the reality of biological evolution". --Matt Smith (talk) 16:22, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. I mistook Dave's explanation above for the actual quote. I will go looking now for a source. jps (talk) 17:51, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi folks, #Scott (2009) broad and narrow definitions above is a transcription to the best of my ability from p. 57 of Scott's book. The broad definition is the first paragraph, as Matt points out, and the second paragraph gives narrower meanings. The "spectrum of views" bit is on pp. 61–75 which should be viewable from the same link. Citation on this talk page, "Scott, Eugenie C. (July–August 1999)", links to an updated version based on the 2009 book, and looks pretty much the same. Hope that clarifies things! . . dave souza, talk 18:13, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Dave. Do you think that the wording is okay? It seems to me that there is some tension as to whether evolutionary creationism is strictly creationism or not, perhaps owing to a question as to whether there is any action being done that is "supernatural". jps (talk) 18:23, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks jps, the wording covers points but needs tightened, will try to come back on this. The "broad" issue is that even theistic evolution overlaps considerably with creationism and variants tend to require some supernatural intervention, there's a tendency to equate creationism with anti-evolution which can be misleading. The evolutionary creationism tag has been used (and I think still is used) by those who feel their beliefs are creationist, but accept evolution to a greater extent than hardline anti-evolutionists. Hence a continuum with the only clear divide being between YEC and OEC, and even that is spanned by various ID proponentsists. So Scott's continuum stands, can try to find again sources on evolutionary creationism. . . dave souza, talk 19:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

As above, I think the broad and narrow issue works better in the first paragraph. The reference to Scott's continuum is outdated, worth changing it to Eugenie Scott (13 February 2018). "The Creation/Evolution Continuum". NCSE. Retrieved 26 April 2019. . . . dave souza, talk 15:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• To tie in with moving the broad and narrow issue to paragraph 1, I've drafted reworking outlining types above on the basis of continuum sources – this is ground the article should cover, looks rather long so expect will have to trim it. . . dave souza, talk 14:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

I think it important that we have a section on non-Christian cretaionists. Harun Yahya's Atlas of Creation comes to mind as deserving a mention. jps (talk) 22:18, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that should be a separate paragraph in the lead. It's covered in the article in Creationism#Religious views and Creationism#Prevalence, but Numbers (2006) gives a lot more detail and Prevalence doesn't seem to cover Asia, so update needed. To some extent it's exported from the US, but each religion has distinctive theology and creation accounts so rather complex. Didn't know Oktar/Yahya initially studied ID (Interior Design). . . dave souza, talk 09:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Paragraph Three: First use of the term

The first use of the term "creationist" to describe a proponent of creationism is found in an 1856 letter of Charles Darwin describing those who objected on religious grounds to the then-emerging science of evolution.

First use: history in progress

Just for information, using Ron Numbers' Darwinism Comes to America and online sources I've put together some information. Here's the basic framework, I can add sources shortly, or cut it back further: think this big picture is needed somewhere, an outline in this article would be good but it can get into a lot of detail! 20th century developments to follow. . dave souza, talk 19:35, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

In the 19th century, the term Creationism commonly referred to the doctrine that God directly created the soul for each baby, as opposed to other doctrines such as Traducianism which held that souls were inherited through natural generation.

By then, species of organisms were conventionally held to be individually created as fixed and unchangeable, geology found that the Earth was very ancient, and prehistoric species had gone extinct. The gap theory of 1814 allowed prehistoric time in a literal reading of Genesis, but the appearance of new species posed a mystery "which natural science cannot reach".

In his 1842 "pencil sketch" outlining on the Origin of Species, Darwin set his theory against "the view ordinarily received" or held by "creationists", that all the species in the world had been "created by so many distinct acts of creation".

This view was unlikely to have been the long-superseded idea of Linnaeus that the offspring of created pairs of each species had spread out from one place. It was most likely to have been Charles Lyell's uniformitarian suggestion of "successive creation of species" in "centres or foci of creation" within migrating distance of each habitat (with "creation" being used by Lyell to imply an incomprehensible natural process). Another common doctrine was the catastrophist view that the Earth was repeatedly depopulated, then complete new populations created to occupy each habitat.

Darwin used the term "creationist" in letters to his colleagues, and in a scientific paper published in 1862. His American friend Asa Gray wrote articles published by The Nation in 1873–1874 discussing the "special creationist" or "the specific creationist". In 1887 some of the letters were published in The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin.

In 1889 the Century Dictionary defined Creationism as "The doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by the fiat of an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed : opposed to evolutionism." The entry is attributed to Charles Sanders Peirce, an opponent of creationism.

References

1. ^ Gunn 2004, p. 9, "The Concise Oxford Dictionary says that creationism is 'the belief that the universe and living organisms originated from specific acts of divine creation.'"
2. Brosseau, Olivier; Silberstein, Marc (2015). "Evolutionism(s) and Creationism(s)". In Heams, Thomas; Huneman, Philippe; Lecointre, Guillaume; Silberstein., Marc (eds.). Handbook of Evolutionary Thinking in the Sciences. Dordrecht: Springer. pp. 881–96. ISBN 9789401790147. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
3. ^ "creationism: definition of creationism in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)". Oxford Dictionaries (Definition). Oxford: Oxford University Press. OCLC 656668849. Retrieved 2014-03-05. The belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.
4. Brosseau, Olivier; Silberstein, Marc (2015). "Evolutionism(s) and Creationism(s)". In Heams, Thomas; Huneman, Philippe; Lecointre, Guillaume; Silberstein., Marc (eds.). Handbook of Evolutionary Thinking in the Sciences. Dordrecht: Springer. pp. 881–96. ISBN 9789401790147. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
5. Ruse 2018.
6. Scott 2009, p. 57.
7. ^ Scott, Eugenie C. (July–August 1999). "The Creation/Evolution Continuum". Reports of the National Center for Science Education. 19 (4): 16–17, 23–25. ISSN 2158-818X. Retrieved 2014-03-14.
8. ^ Haarsma 2010, p. 168, "Some Christians, often called 'Young Earth creationists,' reject evolution in order to maintain a semi-literal interpretation of certain biblical passages. Other Christians, called 'progressive creationists,' accept the scientific evidence for some evolution over a long history of the earth, but also insist that God must have performed some miracles during that history to create new life-forms. Intelligent design, as it is promoted in North America is a form of progressive creation. Still other Christians, called 'theistic evolutionists' or 'evolutionary creationists,' assert that the scientific theory of evolution and the religious beliefs of Christianity can both be true."
9. ^ Chang, Kenneth (November 2, 2009). "Creationism, Without a Young Earth, Emerges in the Islamic World". The New York Times.
10. ^ al-Azami, Usaama (2013-02-14). "Muslims and Evolution in the 21st Century: A Galileo Moment?". Huffington Post Religion Blog. Retrieved 19 February 2013.
11. ^ Campbell, Duncan (February 20, 2006). "Academics fight rise of creationism at universities". The Guardian. London: Guardian Media Group. Retrieved 2010-04-07.
12. (Scott 2009, p. 57)
13. "What is "Intelligent Design" Creationism?". NCSE. 2008-10-17. Retrieved 2019-04-23.
14. "Creationism: The Hindu View". www.talkorigins.org. Retrieved 2019-04-23.
15. Johnson, George (1996-10-22). "Indian Tribes' Creationists Thwart Archeologists". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2019-04-23.
16. Darwin, Charles (July 5, 1856). "Darwin, C. R. to Hooker, J. D." Darwin Correspondence Project. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Library. Letter 1919. Retrieved 2010-08-11.
    • Darwin, Charles (May 31, 1863). "Darwin, C. R. to Gray, Asa". Darwin Correspondence Project. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Library. Letter 4196. Retrieved 2010-08-11.

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2019

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Please delete any mention of myth because creationism is a theory. Please delete or change the first sentence under section "Christianity" because it is not true. Any believer in the Bible who does not adhere to Biblical teachings is obviously not a believer in the Bible. Jmjpeper (talk) 02:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Not done, please provide specific suggestions backed by academic sources. Biblical literalism is not a prerequisite for Christian belief. Acroterion (talk) 02:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Scientific methods and Mythology

With the following sentence; "Creationism, in its broadest sense, includes a spectrum or continuum of religious views, some of which accept the reality of biological evolution; evolutionary creationism and varieties of theistic evolution reconcile their faith with modern science and hold that God purposefully created through the laws of nature."

The word reconcile does not fit here, because reconcile means "make (one account) consistent with another, especially by allowing for transactions begun but not yet completed."

The "purposeful creations of laws of nature" cannot be reconciled with the scientific method of experimentation and observation.

I would suggest changing it to this Creationism, in its broadest sense, includes a spectrum or continuum of religious views, disillusioned some of which accept the reality of biological evolution; evolutionary creationism and varieties of theistic evolution attempt to unsuccessfully reconcile their faith with modern science and hold that God purposefully created through the laws of nature.--Eng. M.Bandara-Talk 07:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Putting the word disillusioned in there doesn't even make grammatical sense, and there's no particular reason to believe that everyone who tries to reconcile their faith with science is unsuccessful. The idea that they "cannot" be reconciled is your opinion. PepperBeast (talk) 08:23, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

pepperbeast It's not my opinion the Scientific method is well established and defined, stating that laws of nature come about by supernatural processes is not consistent with the scientific processes. And supported by multiple WP:RS such as --Eng. M.Bandara-Talk 08:34, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree that "disillusioned" makes no sense and isn't sourced, but the sentence as it stands is clearly wrong/ungrammatical. "Views" cannot "reconcile their faith", only people have faith. @Dave souza: could you help fix this please? Thanks. Doug Weller talk 13:10, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, good call that "views" can't reconcile faith. Have reworded it:

Creationism, in its broadest sense, includes a spectrum or continuum of religious views. Some types accept the reality of biological evolution; evolutionary creationism and varieties of theistic evolution reconcile religious faith with modern science, and hold that God purposefully created through the laws of nature.

Feel that's clearer. As for the reconciliation, the question of where laws of nature come from is beyond science. These types of creationism combine their religious belief in divine creation with acceptance of all the findings of science – to quote Scott,

"Theistic evolution is a theological view in which God creates through the laws of nature. Theistic evolutionists (TEs) accept all the results of modern science, in anthropology and biology as well as in astronomy, physics, and geology. . . . .However, TEs vary in whether and how much God is allowed to intervene — some believe that God created the laws of nature and allows events to occur with no further intervention. Other TEs believe that God intervenes at critical intervals during the history of life (especially in the origin of humans)."

These theological views exist, whether they're successful or not isn't an issue for this concise lead statement. . . dave souza, talk 16:04, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Dave souzaThe issue with it is that it makes it appear as if even if you adopt least intervening TE's to say that "God created the laws of nature" it gives the illusion that there is a possibility that this position can be successfully reconciled with modern science and accepted. When reality is this in itself does not at all reconcile with modern science. For a reader that's unfamiliar with the topic, it should be made clear, that although there has been an attempt at reconciling their beliefs with modern science, it is impossible to be reconciled without the even passing the first step of the scientific method that is a testable hypothesis.--Eng. M.Bandara-Talk 21:55, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Source? . . . . . dave souza, talk 04:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Even while I agree that accommodationist theism does not present falsifiable hypotheses for a scientist to consider, people who believe that theism and scientific results can be reconciled do not generally claim that this reconciliation is supposed to happen using the scientific method. jps (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

For examples, Clergy Letter Project. . . dave souza, talk 19:53, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/sep/24/big-issue-no-mystery-science-and-religion-cannot-be-reconciled

Nomination of Portal:Creationism for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Creationism is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Creationism (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 23:30, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Biased Statement

In the following line in the article: "are compatible with a Christian fundamentalist literal interpretation of the creation myths found in the Bible's Genesis" the phrase "creation myth", by definition implies that creationism is a false idea. This is a biased statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDarden (talk • contribs) 19:22, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello David. I recommend reading Talk:Genesis creation narrative/FAQ. WP:FIXBIAS may also be useful on how to approach perceived bias in relation to improving the encyclopedia. —PaleoNeonate – 19:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2019

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Under “Types” correct spelling to “between the” 41.13.4.180 (talk) 08:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for the heads up. HiLo48 (talk) 08:51, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2020

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Please remove reference to all instances of evolution being "scientific". Evolution is just as much an unprovable religious belief system (called atheism) as any creation hypothesis. Stating evolution as "scientific" is misleading at best and simply lying at worst. Let's keep Misplaced Pages a safe and informative platform and not one for spouting off religious dogma. Thank you. William.The.Honest (talk) 21:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Plainly nonsense. Theroadislong (talk) 23:07, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Requesting to expunge all instances of evolution being called "scientific" because one can not be bothered to differentiate atheism from evolution and religion is to have the article rewritten as antiscience propaganda, and runs afoul of WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NOTAFORUM.--Mr Fink (talk) 23:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

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