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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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	Julius and Ethel Rosenberg was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 22, 2006 Good article nominee Listed July 18, 2009 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Espionage Mid‑importance Julius and Ethel Rosenberg is within the scope of WikiProject Espionage, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of espionage, intelligence, and related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, or contribute to the discussion.EspionageWikipedia:WikiProject EspionageTemplate:WikiProject EspionageEspionage Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. New York City Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States History Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of the United States on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United States HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject United States HistoryTemplate:WikiProject United States HistoryUnited States History Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject United States History To-do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Cleanup : United States History articles needing attention Infobox : United States History articles needing infoboxes Stubs : Stub-Class United States History articles, Category:United States history stubs Other : Place either of the following WikiProject banners on United States History-related articles and assess: {{WikiProject United States History|class=|importance=}} {{WikiProject United States|class=|importance=|UShistory=Yes|UShistory-importance=}} Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Crime and Criminal Biography Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jewish history Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on June 19, 2004, June 19, 2005, June 19, 2006, June 19, 2007, June 19, 2008, June 19, 2009, June 19, 2010, June 19, 2013, and June 19, 2018.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Template:Vital article

Age at death / limitations of sidebar

The right-hand information block suggested that, having died the same day, they died at the same age in spite of having different birth years. Reviewing the code, it appears this was an auto-calculated field which does not allow the flexibility of reporting two death ages at a unique time for non-unique birthdates. To clarify for other readers, I changed the code from

| date_of_death  = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (both)

to

| date_of_death  = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (Julius), and aged 37 (Ethel)

which I believe removes the ambiguity. There is still some minor formatting inconsistency as the sidebar places the initial age in parenthesis, but this was the best I could do with the automated process. At least now they are not reported dead at the same age.

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were Jewish United States citizens..." in lede paragraph is WP:UNDUE

The lede paragraph of his article was modified on 20:49, 28 May 2018 to say

"Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were Jewish United States citizens... ".

.

The religious background of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (both were from Jewish families) is already dealt with in the section "Early lives and education". If there is a notable connection between the religious and cultural milieu and the acts for which this couple became notable, it's not documented by a reliable source. Likewise, if either Julius or Ethel Rosenberg were observant Jews, that is also not documented by a reliable source.

Neither of the two ways it's generally understood that the Rosenbergs could be called "Jewish" is relevant to the acts for which the Rosenbergs became notable. Stating the fact in the article's lede paragraph is WP:UNDUE. I reverted the change accordingly. loupgarous (talk) 02:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, Jewish can be an ethnic description. No, neither of them were religiously observant: they were Communists. I agree this doesn't need to be in the lede.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

NPOV regarding the Venona project conclusions regarding their guilt and overall tone of article.

The article seems to state a "contentious" regarding the interpretation of the VENONA documents that I am not convinced exists. Yes, it may be true that a majority of historians feel the Venona project documents do in deed support the guilt of the Rosenberg's, the fact is that their has been some legitimate doubt raised about whether the documents have been properly translated or not by respectable sources. As such, I would rewrite the VENONA documents section to better reflect this. There is dispute by relevant individuals as to whether the VENONA documents are properly translated and as such, whether they do in deed support the long held belief that certain individuals, such as the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss where indeed guilty of spying for the Soviets. Critics believe that while the documents do indeed show spying was going on, it's not clear that they real-life individuals accused of said spying are indeed the code-names mentioned in the document. The documents do not mention real names so it requires speculation to put the real names to the code-named people in the document. This article should reflect this reality. There is also the issue of whether the immorality of framing the Rosenberg's, even if they where guilty to some or all degree, makes their execution a grave injustice, as well as whether they was such they deserve the death penalty anyways. If any notable persons has argued their they believe the Rosenberg's role in the espionage did not constitute a death penalty level offense that that should be added to the article. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is based off of what the reliable sources say. In this particular article, what serious (as opposed to popular) historians have written on the subject. Who are the historians who agree with you and disagree with the ones currently used in the article? NPalgan2 (talk) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Notcharliechaplin The VENONA Soviet cable decrypts mentioning the Soviet agent named "Julius" were important, but also corroborated by the detective work of FBI special agent Robert Lamphere in tying Julius Rosenberg to the agent "Julius" in the decrypts - which also mentioned the agent was married to a woman named "Ethel". That part of the decrypts was very explicit and not prone to mistranslation - it was very specific about agent "Julius" and his wife "Ethel" - if anyone burned the Rosenbergs, it was their Soviet case handler. With the VENONA cables, the testimony of Ethel Rosenberg's brother and her sister-in-law, and the Soviet courier Harry Gold, there were no ambiguities regarding the Rosenbergs' guilt.

We already cite reliable sources questioning the morality of executing the Rosenbergs, up to and including their sons, the Meeropol brothers. We cite reliable sources who agree that the Rosenbergs were guilty. We also cite one of the most eminent legal scholars and defense counsels in the United States, Alan Dershowitz in the lede paragraph as saying the Rosenbergs were "guilty - and framed" of espionage. We also cite very reliable sources, the VENONA decrypts and the FBI investigators, as well as several historians who discussed the case together as supporting the guilty verdict in the Rosenbergs' case. You're welcome to present these other sources here and we'll examine them and form a consensus on whether to add what they have to say - but remember WP:DUE - these other sources would have to be a significant minority view - not a small minority, as Jimbo Wales says in the WP:DUE guideline. loupgarous (talk) 21:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Motives?

The current article is good at explaining the intel lost, and some of the impacts, but lacks a motive as to why the Rosenberg's did what they did. I'm sure early cold-war propaganda is untrustworthy, but time and evidence should present an answer to "why" they did it. 2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D (talk) 03:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Money. 50.111.57.100 (talk) 08:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

They were Communists and supporters of the Soviet Union.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:53, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The records, Soviet as well as FBI's and Harry Gold's own recollections, give a picture of the Rosenbergs as committed Communists who wanted to aid the Soviet Union by helping the Soviets gain the secrets of nuclear weapons (including Klaus Fuchs's and Edward Teller's early thermonuclear weapon concepts - which helped Sakharov conceive designs for Soviet thermonuclear weapons later). loupgarous (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Bias and unrelated information in this article?

It seems to me that this article has a very strange non-independent tone that isn't in line with the Misplaced Pages guidelines. Also, I'm concerned that this article contains an immense amount of unrelated information about other people, but does not accurately represent the historical debate and ongoing discussion about the Rosenbergs. I feel this page should be marked for major review. TheStranger616 (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

This is a strangely biased article, certainly in its introductory paragraph, where there's nothing resembling a neutral POV. A far more reasonable description would begin with stating that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were tried, convicted, and executed for conspiracy to commit espionage. The rest of the article has sections that hew far more closely to a balanced assessment, alternating with tabloidy sections (for example, how to justify this? "The Rosenbergs' two sons, Michael and Robert Meeropol, spent years trying to prove the innocence of their parents. They were orphaned by the executions and were not adopted by any relatives."). Crimes stated as factual are well beyond what the evidence can be shown to support, and the writing does not reach a level that is even vaguely befitting an encyclopedia article.

There is further, a whiff of anti-semitism in the deployment of the word Jewish (and although it was removed from the opening description of the Rosenbergs as Jewish Americans, that lives on in google). Why, for example does it say this: "Ethel and Julius Rosenberg were buried at Wellwood Cemetery, a Jewish cemetery in Pinelawn, New York"? or this: "the charges of antisemitism were widely believed abroad, but not among the vast majority in the United States." One might write paragraphs about that, but I'd like to see some evidence of the beliefs of a "vast majority"--and majority of whom?)

The only section relating to Korean war seems to be in quotation from the trial judge, but there should surely be some reference to the fraught state of US politics as a result of the US's fighting that grueling war during this time, with Communist China engaged in the fighting — all of which clearly provided a backdrop for the execution of people convicted of conspiracy to provide secrets to a wartime ally , secrets which had already been provide by Klaus Fuchs.

 The Venona intercepts are valuable and important evidence; books written by political critics of the Rosenbergs are far less so.  I won't go on, as I am sadly short of time, but I would like to support the request for major review to which I am appending this comment.

Actio (talk) 23:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

As you say, they were convicted of a crime, and the article reflects that. The article also indicates that there has been an ongoing campaign to exonerate them (or at least Ethel). I think there is nothing anti-semitic about describing them as Jews. They were ethnic Jews and identified as such, as shown by the fact they were buried in a Jewish cemetery. I think you will have trouble finding a source discussing the Rosenbergs that doesn't describe them as Jewish.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Help! Vandalism in color print and formatting

Someone has vandalized this article, putting many sections in bold color font and messing up standard format. I can't figure out how to undo it.Parkwells (talk) 18:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

"Grassroots campaign" for clemency?

Not according to this 2012 paper by Ronald Radosh, which describes it as orchestrated by the Communist party (astroturfing would be more accurate). National Guardian is described as a "fellow-traveling weekly" one of whose editors was a KGB agent (pp. 82–83). Radosh also notes that:

The small group put together by the Almans struggled on its own with little support, until suddenly, in November and December of 1952 - almost overnight, it seemed - their committee was flooded with eager vol- unteers. Donations began pouring in. It became clear that suddenly the American Communist Party had reversed course and ordered its cadre to join the campaign and put all its efforts into the work. (83)

It was on December 3, 1952 - the same day that the French Rosenberg Defense Committee was founded - that Rudolf Slansky and his co-defendants were executed in Prague. Clearly, the Stalinist apparatus in Moscow desperately needed something to deflect the world's attention from the sordid execution of the innocent in Prague. The Rosenberg case fit the bill perfectly. (84)

Not until this past year, when the former KGB librarian Alexander Vassiliev released his "Notebooks" (verbatim renditions of documents he meticulously copied from the KGB archives, and eventually smuggled into London, where he now lives), was there corroboration that the American and Western European campaigns to gain clemency for the Rosenbergs had been created directly in Moscow from the very start. (85)

And then goes on to discuss the evidence... buidhe 01:39, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

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