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Patapsco913

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Patapsco913

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

L235 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:39, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Patapsco913 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

NEWBLPBAN DS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. July 2019 (BLP violations, see below for details)
   1. Repeated restoration: and more in the history of Bradley_S._Jacobs
2. Previous final warning by administrators for the same issue

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted to BLP DS less than a year ago

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I originally imposed a flexible ban from BLPs , giving the following reasoning:

Hi Patapsco913. I have some concerns about your contributions to biographies of living people. Specifically, in this series of edits to Bradley S. Jacobs in July, it appears that you added the category Category:American Jews and added the claim that "Jacobs was born to a Jewish family in Providence, Rhode Island, the son of Charlotte Sybil (née Bander) and Albert Jordan Jacobs." You source this statement to two obituaries in legacy.com for his parents, neither of which even mentions anything about any of them being Jewish. When this content was removed, you vigorously and repeatedly reverted the removal with edit summaries such as "sorry you need this for the category he is in" (that's kind of putting the cart before the horse) and most strikingly "You do not have a source that he is not jewish" (this edit was made less than a week ago). WP:BLP is pretty explicit that the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. It's the burden of the person who wishes to retain or restore material to provide high-quality sources to verify the material; in this case, the sources didn't even mention anyone (much less the article subject) being Jewish. (Not to mention concerns about the quality of the source itself -- often obituaries in local newspapers are written by family members, not editorial staff, and legacy.com does not give sufficient information to determine who wrote a particular obituary. I personally spent a considerable amount of time trying to find these articles from another source, to no avail.)

I see that there have been several previous notes and warnings about BLP issues. In December, Coffee, TheSandDoctor, and Oshwah extensively wrote about the sourcing requirements for BLPs in the specific context of your edits inappropriately identifying a particular person as Jewish, and especially in categorization. TheSandDoctor wrote, "I just was made aware of this edit you made today introducing text stating that Maurice Kremer is Jewish in violation of WP:CAT/R. Please cease this immediately. Further edits of this sort without previous consensus and in blatant disregard for the above will result in a block. This is your final warning." (emphasis in original). Furthermore, you were alerted to BLP DS in December by Cameron11598.

Accordingly, I feel I have no choice but to impose a sanction. I'm sorry to do this, Patapsco913, but I am imposing the arbitration enforcement sanction described in the next section. I will look favorably upon a request to ease or lift this sanction with an acknowledgement of the BLP issues thus far and a commitment to avoid further issues in the future, after a record of contributions that shows a strong understanding of sourcing and verifiability requirements across Misplaced Pages. Please don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 00:40, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

(Those with access to oversight OTRS, see ticket:2020030210009186 for background info; it's probably fine to move that ticket to info-en-q though since there's nothing oversightable there.)

Levivich objected to my sanction, arguing that the edits made were not BLP violations. I think it's pretty clear that the Jacobs edits were sanctionable BLP violations, especially in light of the user's history of warnings, but it seems Levivich feels strongly about this. Therefore, I'm vacating my sanction as a courtesy and filing here for possible action. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 06:39, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

As the original enforcing administrator, I want to note that I'm fine with no or limited further action in light of Patapsco913's recent statement here. Thanks all. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 00:17, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

notice

Discussion concerning Patapsco913

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Patapsco913

Bradley S. Jacobs. If you look at the history https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Bradley_S._Jacobs&action=history I was reverting numerous edits which turned out to be 15 sockpuppets Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Aussietommartin. I did not think it controversial stating that he was from a Jewish family since both his parents had Jewish funerals (both stating “Shiva will be observed… or “Shiva will be held”).

As far as the warnings received from User:Coffee, User:TheSandDoctor, and User:Oshwah. I think it started with my edit on Edward Kosner where I added he was from a "Jewish family" with two citations. I could have used the Wall Street Journal https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB115654273560545904 "Mr. Kosner grew up as the precocious only child of a marginally middle-class Jewish family." but it was behind a paywall so I left it out since others cannot see it. It was requested to be removed via OTRS for "Concerns of undue weight, and request for removal."

I do not know what the OTRS request was about but it seems that it involved more than Edward Kosner. I then received a warning from User:Coffee on my talk page User talk:Patapsco913#Discontinue violations of BLP. User:TheSandDoctor and User:Oshwah then briefly chimed in support of Coffee. When I queried about what standards are required to list someone as Jewish, I was told that they would tell me later after he reviewed all my edits which he started https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Coffee&offset=20200116185617&target=Coffee and here https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Coffee&offset=20191225102214&target=Coffee I disagreed with his standard which I rehashed based on his edit comments as "In order to document a subject as ethnically Jewish, I have to have at least 3 unquestionably reliable sources describing the subject as ethnically Jewish. In order to document a subject as religiously Jewish, I have to have at least 3 unquestionably reliable sources showing that they self-identify as a practitioner of Judaism and that the fact they practice Judaism is part of their notability." This would seem to preclude adding any Jewish designation on most biographies. As I understand it, this is not the standard that wikipedia uses.

Maurice Kremer. I did not think this was controversial since he died in 1907 and was a founding member of Congregation B'nai B'rith (now the Wilshire Boulevard Temple) and there are reliable sources that state he is Jewish (see talk page for Kremer). I changed it from "raised in a Jewish family" to "Kremer is Jewish" to try to alleviate Coffee's synthesis concerns so I really did not add anything.

I then posted on my talk page that when I look over the contributions by the various Jewish wikiprojects Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jewish history, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jewish Women, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jewish culture, I did not see that strict standard being followed. I posted on Misplaced Pages Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 37#Identifying who is Jewish to get some clarity. Eventually Coffee's edits (where he was removing Jews from lists some of which he first cleared all supporting references in their biography) became a discussion on the Administrator's noticeboard at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive316#Coffee removing Categories and Lists Inappropriately. Several editors seem to have disagreed with this strict standards either on the Wikiproject Judaism or the Noticeboard or my talkpage (Sir Joseph, Dialectric, Debresser, Cullen328, Levivich, Bus stop, Johnbod, Jayjg) although you should read their comments yourself.

The fundamental problem I see is that there is not a standard for identifying someone as Jewish. Some believe it is contentious to be Jewish (which i do not agree). I stated on the ANI: " I think the problem is that there is not a clear consensus on when we can identify if someone is Jewish and what kind of sourcing we need. I cannot find anything directly on point in the various discussion boards. As Jewish can be both ethnic and religious (generally Judaism is the term for the religion), it crosses several lines. If a source says they are Jewish (e.g. Jewish Women's Archive, the The Jewish Encyclopedia, or the Jewish Virtual Library), can we include even if it is not relevant to their notability. If a subject's parents are both Jewish, is the subject? If one had a Jewish funeral and burial, are they Jewish? If one is born to a Jewish family, are they Jewish? If the subject is an atheist but of Jewish heritage, are they Jewish (Woody Allen, Albert Einstein)? If one becomes a bar mitzvah, are they Jewish? These nuances should be explained in the biography just like we say that someone is of Italian descent." The standard that I think we should follow is that which was left on my on my talk page by Jayjg (who is very active in Jewish topics) that "All one needs is to follow Misplaced Pages policy: that is, find a reliable source indicating that the individual is Jewish. Two or more sources would, of course, be better, particularly for living people."

I admit this was a mistake I made with many of my edits thinking that stating that someone was from a "Jewish family" was better than stating that someone "is Jewish" and that was original research (which I could remedy) and which is what I did when I re-edited Maurice Kremer (see User talk:Patapsco913#Other business people you might be interested in). I have not been editing any biographies to a great degree since then nor have I touched the edits Coffee made since I do not have a clear standard to go by. Patapsco913 (talk) 03:51, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, I was quoting someone who left a message on my talk page but I agree with their sentiment. I should note that on Bradley S. Jacobs I was reverting a bunch of sock-puppets who were removing info as well as changing the bio from chronological to latest career posting first (although I added the original about his parents being Jewish). I should not have asked them to prove a negative but I was frustrated with the now banned 15 sock puppets that were editing the page. I do not see that being Jewish is contentious but just another component of a person's biography like where they grew up, where they went to high school, what their parent's occupations were...etc. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you referred to Jewish as being solely a religion which I think is how many perceive it. Being Jewish can mean many things as demonstrated by the Misplaced Pages article Who is a Jew?. Under the argument that not being a practitioner of Judaism would nullify one's identity as a Jew would exclude Woody Allen, Sergei Brin, Noam Chomsky, Albert Einstein...but we include them as Jews. If you look at discussions under Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 37#Identifying who is Jewish and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 37#Splitting categories and lists by ethnicity and religion (proposed by EllenCT) you will see that it is accepted that being Jewish is much more than being a religious Jew.Patapsco913 (talk) 01:46, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

The original response was posted in an uninvolved admins-only section and is a response to Awilley. --TheSandDoctor 16:56, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I will limit my edits on living Jewish biographies to individuals that have a strong reference they are Jewish; and if I have somewhat less direct or less reliable evidence i will seek an outside opinion and/or post on the talk page for discussion. For deceased Jewish people, I will make certain I have a good source as well. I think this may be something that I take up on a discussion board (although I will have to get a lot of examples) so hopefully future editors will have better guidance. I will also not put "from a Jewish family" but rather "x is Jewish" so I avoid the synthesis issue. Patapsco913 (talk) 20:05, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@TheSandDoctor: @Newyorkbrad: The first diff (Special:Diff/940254355) cited is supported by an article by the well-known genealogist Nate Bloom (see below) who writes for numerous respected Jewish publications and is used as a resource by mainstream news sources as well. "Jewish people" are listed in bold in his articles. The second diff (Special:Diff/943104971) was wrong on my part to mention Jewish but as I detail above but I was reverting an edit that made major changes to the page by a series of editors (who I suspected were sockpuppets) and even posted a note to their talk page ] for discussion

• Kampeas, Ron (January 14, 2011). "Nate Bloom buries "Loughner is Jewish"". Jewish Telegraph Agency.
• Kampeas, Ron (February 10, 2012). "Political Points — GOP outreach edition". The Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Nate Bloom, the tireless Jewish genealogist
• Farhi, Paul (November 29, 2002). "From 'Hanukah' To Eternity". Washington Post. Yet, "if you don't ever talk about who's Jewish, then you bury the Jewish cultural achievement," says Nate Bloom, the editor of Jewhoo.com, an encyclopedic Web site of Jewish celebrities.
• Lewis, Randy (December 24, 2009). "Bob Dylan joins long list of Jewish musicians performing Christmas music". Los Angeles Times. Writer Nate Bloom has run down the roster of classic Christmas songs written or co-written by Jews for the Judaic website Interfaithfamily.com
• Topping, Seymour. "Biography of Joseph Pulitzer". Pulitzer.org. Retrieved January 5, 2018. We thank journalist Nate Bloom for his diligent efforts in bringing this matter to our attention
• Gertel, Elliot B. (December 23, 2018). "Dreaming of a Jewish Christmas". American Thinker. A simple internet search will yield articles on the subject, including an excellent 2014 piece by Nate Bloom showing that Jewish song-writers did not start the genre, but wrote about half of all leading pop Christmas tunes.

Statement by Levivich (Patapsco)

Kevin (whom I thank for bringing this here for review) wrote, "I see that there have been several previous notes and warnings about BLP issues.", and then as an example, uses the warning Patapsco913 received for edits to Maurice Kremer. Kremer died in 1907; not a BLP. The article Maurice Kremer states that he is a founder of Congregation B'nai B'rith, now Wilshire Boulevard Temple, the oldest Jewish congregation in Los Angeles. The two sources in the article were and . When Patapsco913 was warned on his user page, he provided more sources establishing Kremer's (very obvious) Jewish identity, such as the article "LA's first Jew" by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (note: Kremer is not LA's first Jew; but is mentioned in the article as one of the first seven). Here's another one. There are more such sources. There was nothing wrong with categorizing Kremer as an American Jew. It was not a BLP violation – it's not even a BLP – and all of this Kremer stuff happened back in December, before that long AN thread, which I had hoped would have clarified this issue for everyone. The warning was improper, and relying upon that warning in issuing this sanction was improper.

The only other alleged problem since Kremer in December (correct me if I'm wrong) are Patapsco913's edits to Bradley S. Jacobs. Patapsco said that Jacobs was "born into a Jewish family", and named his parents (Charlotte and Albert), citing to his parents' obituaries . Kevin said that those sources don't say that the parents are Jewish, but he is incorrect; the obituaries clearly establish that Jacobs' parents were Jewish. There's a Star of David on both the obituaries. The funeral home in both is a Jewish funeral home (it even has "Sinai" in the name). It announces shiva hours, a Jewish funeral rite. Charlotte's obituary talks about how she sat shiva for her mother for a year (the traditional period is 7 days, so this is very devout Judaism). Charlotte's obituary was published in The Jewish Voice & Herald . As I said on Patapsco's page, these are Jewish biographies of people who are receiving Jewish funeral rights from a Jewish funeral home, and we're not sure if they're Jewish? Of course these sources establish that the parents were Jewish.

So, Patapsco wrote "born to a Jewish family", and a more-accurate construction would be "born to Jewish parents" (similar to what our article Sergey Brin says). But that is not a BLP violation; it's semantics–a content dispute. Whether Jacobs's Jewish heritage is WP:DUE in his biography is, similarly, a content dispute. It should be resolved by means of a talk page discussion or RFC; not by a TBAN from BLPs. Whether Jacobs should be in Category:American Jews or Category:Americans of Jewish descent is also a content issue to be resolved in the usual way. It's not a BLP violation to pick one or the other. I tend to think that, for Jacobs, his ethnic background is not DUE, and he should be in Category:Americans of Jewish descent and not Category:American Jews, but that doesn't mean that someone who disagrees with me is committing a BLP violation or should be TBANed from BLPs.

In this case, I think it is the administrators, and not Patapsco, who got it wrong. One of the big disconnects is that "Jewish" is an ethnoreligious group, and not just a religion. That means that if your parents are Jewish, you will generally be considered Jewish, and people of Jewish heritage continue to be Jewish even if they don't follow the Jewish religion. This is the predominant view of Jews throughout the world (based on survey by Pew and others), and that is also the consensus view of reliable sources about Jewish identity. It's what our own articles on the topic say as well. Those who treat "being Jewish" as a religious belief that requires explicit self-identification do not understand Jewish identity, and frankly, shouldn't be policing the topic area. Contra to Awilley's comment below, I am not aware of any sourcing restriction in place regarding the sourcing of people as Jewish. But even if there is such a restriction, Kremer's sources would certainly pass it, and whether it's DUE in Jacobs' case is the stuff of content disputes, not BLP violations. Levivich  02:28, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Awilley and JzG: Any editing restriction would have to be limited to the DS area of BLPs, right? I'd ask you to look at the evidence again and note that Patapsco has made, at most, one bad BLP edit, and this doesn't justify an editing restriction. There's this idea that he was warned multiple times, but he wasn't. Those previous warnings were not merited, and most of them weren't even to BLPs. Nevertheless, in response to the concerns brought up on his talk page, Patapsco added additional sourcing to these articles, or did not reinstate the objected-to edits. You can see this for yourself by looking at every article that was discussed in this AE report or on Patapsco's talk page:

• Maurice Kremer, for which Pataspco received a BLP warning from TheSandDoctor. Kremer died in 1907, so it's not a BLP, and per sources (linked in my first paragraph above), he was one of the first seven Jews to immigrate to LA, founder of the largest congregation of Jews in LA.
• George Blumberg was discussed on Patapsco's talk page and reverted by Coffee. Blumberg died in 1960, not a BLP. "Jewish" is well-sourced to multiple secondary sources in the article added by Patapsco. Please take a look for yourself at the article and edit history. No foul here.
• Sherman Block was brought up by Coffee on Patapsco's talk page. Block died in 1998, not a BLP. "Jewish" is well-sourced to multiple secondary sources in the article added by Patapsco. No foul here.
• Edward Kosner is a BLP and is discussed above; Patapsco's edits that Kosner was "born to a Jewish family" were reverted and not reinstated. However, I think I will be reinstating them myself. Kosner wrote an autobiography, cited multiple times in his article, in which he describes his Jewish identity and background at length. Here are a couple excerpts: p. 17: As my bar mitzvah approached ... Like other assimilating second-generation American Jews, my parents were observant in the most idiosyncratic way. p. 18: When the big Saturday of the bar mitvah finally came, I sang like a little Jewish prince and my mother kvelled with pleasure. In addition to his autobiography, we have: NYTimes "No buccaneer, Kosner, born in 1937, grew up a ham-eating, third-generation assimilating Jew in Washington Heights."; Wall St Journal "Mr. Kosner grew up as the precocious only child of a marginally middle-class Jewish family"; Jews in American Politics, p. 134, lists him among "Jewish practitioners ... dealing with a Jewish heritage"; American Space, Jewish Time, p. 135, lists him among "Jews who have occupied pivotal positions in the media"; the author of that book also wrote a report published by Oxford U Press and available at policyarchive.org, The American Jew as Journalist, pp. 165–166, which lists him among Jews "conspicuously at the top".
• Bradley S. Jacobs – the one and only arguably bad edit discussed here so far: "born to a Jewish family" and Category:American Jews (instead of Category:Americans of Jewish descent) based on parents' Jewish obituaries (primary sources)

If there are other articles with problems that aren't on this list, I apologize for missing them, but I'd ask that the evidence be looked at closely, because there isn't a pattern of BLP problems here, but rather a problem of bad warnings. The only BLPs are Kosner (sourced to his own autobiography), and Jacobs, the arguable case. It's understandable, if a user receives four bad warnings on his talk page, he may not pay attention to the fifth, even if the fifth was merited. But one mistake doesn't merit anything more than a reminder–not even a warning. Levivich  18:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Re Special:Diff/940254355 appears to be reading purely between the lines whilst not being supported by what is actually written in jweekly: I'm not sure why it's "reading between the lines" when the source calls Abby Kohn a "Celebrity Jew", using those exact words. After all, that's the name of the column in The Jewish News. I think Kohn being written about in Nate Bloom's Celebrity Jews column in The Jewish News is an acceptable source to use to say that Kohn is Jewish. This is not a primary source, and it's explicitly stating that the subject is a "Celebrity Jew". – Levivich  20:08, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

I echo Levivich's statement. Does an obituary of a Jewish person have to say, "the death of a Jew?" As per BLUE, it mentions sitting SHIVA, more importantly, which Levivich missed it also mentions "no flowers" which is also something in Jewish mourning rituals. It's as if there was an article about someone which mentioned "she took communion" but didn't explicitly say "she is Catholic." Someone who takes communion is Catholic (I think I got that right) and someone who sits shiva is Jewish. I just want to add that if there is a source, then we should treat being Jewish as any other religion, even if other's disagree, as some in the AN thread said. It is no different than any other fact, if we have RS, then it's good for Misplaced Pages, as long as it's notable. You don't need extra sourcing just because it's Jewish, as Coffee said (I should note that I, and others, are still waiting for the answer to the question, "How is being Jewish contentious" which Coffee never answered, but that's an aside). Also, since you did bring up the AN, I should point out that consensus was against Coffee's actions in the mass removals and his edits, AFAIR. I am also not sure how someone who died decades ago has BLP concerns. Regardless, I don't see anything actionable here.

Finally, just to clarify or theorize to Levivich Charlotte didn't sit Shiva for a year, after the death of a parent, a Jew is in mourning for a year, see Aveilus for more information. Which itself is more proof that we are dealing with an observant or at the least very traditional Jew. Sir Joseph 03:32, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Swarm: as Levivich pointed out above, there is no BLP issue. You say he's unwilling to listen to reason. I think he's just frustrated that people are continuously throwing false policy at him when none exists. People who died 50+ years ago, don't have BLP issues. Furthermore, there are certain BLUESKY issues as well, as pointed out already. Sir Joseph 05:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish, on Patapsco913

I also agree with Levivich, pretty much word-for-word. I'll add that this is very unlike the |religion=Jewish stuff (a huge squabble when Bernie Sanders first ran for president, and what led to us removing |religion= from most bio infoboxes). There's a fallacy of equivocation happening here, in which people who do not know (or like to pretend they do not know, or who want to discount) the ethno-cultural sense of Jew make a bogus argument that the label implies a particular religious faith automatically or even that it only refers to the religion. It does not. It's simply one of those words in English that has multiple meanings and which is made clear by properly writing the contextual material that surrounds it. There really isn't anything further to this. In the obituaries case, it absolutely was not original research, though I agree that "born to Jewish parents" is better phrasing than "... Jewish family" since family can also be interpreted different ways, narrowly or broadly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:57, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Patapsco913

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• @Patapsco913: You say above, "All one needs is to follow Misplaced Pages policy: that is, find a reliable source indicating that the individual is Jewish. Two or more sources would, of course, be better, particularly for living people." Actually it's a higher bar than that. If somebody's religion is notable enough for Misplaced Pages then it will be easy to find reliable WP:SECONDARY sources for it. But that doesn't address the problem that led to the topic ban...that you were using a low quality source for something that didn't even support the content you were trying to add, and then asking others to provide sources proving the negative. Do you understand why all of this is problematic? ~Awilley (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Levivich: You make a good point that the proposed sanction would have to be very narrow, limited to the living and recently dead. I also take your point about previous warnings being for things where they were correct. I think the biggest thing for me is that with the series of edits that led to this thread being opened, I haven't seen that Patapsco913 understands what they did wrong. I asked the question fairly directly above and Patapsco913 responded in-line but the response skirted the problem, only conceding that they shouldn't have asked the sockpuppet to prove a negative. (I accept BTW that Jewishness is more than religion. Based on that I should rephrase my statement above to say, "If somebody's religionand/or ethnicity is notable enough for Misplaced Pages then it will be easy to find reliable WP:SECONDARY sources for it.") I don't dispute that Jacob's parents were Jewish...it's clear they were when you read between the lines of the obituary (services held at "Sinai Memorial Chapel" etc). But reading between the lines of primary sources that aren't even about the article subject isn't our job. From my perspective all Patapsco913 has to do is indicate they understand this problem and make a clear commitment to use better sourcing in the future and I'd support closing this with no action. ~Awilley (talk) 22:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

This is good enough for me. I would now support a close with "No action" (@Patapsco913: IMO saying someone is "from a Jewish family" is fine if there are secondary sources saying that...no synth there.) ~Awilley (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

• Adding a category based on a source that does not include the category is not cool. Defending it based on synthesis from implied data is actually worse. I don't see any good evidence here that Patapsco913 has properly understood the problem. I completely understand the desire of Wikipedians to claim notable members of minorities of all kinds, but pride and support does not exempt one from sourcing requirements, and categories have to be definitional. If there are no secondary sources identifying someone as Jewish (or Catholic or Pastafarian or anything) then the category is inappropriate even if we can reliably show that they were born to Jewish parents. This is warrior behaviour and is sufficient to justify a sanction. Guy (help!) 09:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Awilley, option 1 has the advantage of being entirely in line with normal Misplaced Pages best practice but I still think a category should not be added unless it is definitional. If some secondary source mentions in passing that someone is culturally Jewish (i.e. born of a Jewish mother) but they are not observant and never talk about it themselves, we should not be adding a category. Guy (help!) 12:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

• Having spent a fair bit of time over the years removing these kinds of designations from articles, I'm no fan of their seemingly unending addition to articles. Nevertheless, in this specific case, the fact is Jews are an ethnic group, so WP:ETHNICRACECAT (which specifically uses Category:Jewish musicians as an example) applies. That means that any arguments about "religion being notable etc." miss the mark, that the bar is no higher than a couple of reliable sources, and that, for better or worse, ethnicity (unlike religion) is typically a matter of ancestry and/or cultural background (not belief). Jayjg 15:10, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
• This is a fairly obvious case of IDHT, confusing the AN discussion about lists they hadn't edited with their actual edits and blatant disregard for WP:BLP, despite the clear warnings given to them. This cannot be allowed to continue ad nauseam. I agree wholeheartedly with JzG that the "warrior behavior" Patapsco913 has displayed for months (and even years) in this topic area, has to be stopped.
  
  In addition, "You do not have a source that he is not jewish" is an extremely worrying sign that Patapsco913 simply does not understand how verification works nor WP:BURDEN, which states "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." (emphasis in the orginal)
  The response to Awilley further shows the user continues — after months of warnings — to believe that low quality sources and use of various forms of original research are acceptable for claims in BLPs. They never are, and attempts to justify asking others to prove the negative based on their frustration shows a lack of the temperament required when dealing with such a sensitive topic area.
  While I understand the points raised by Jayjg, this issue is much broader than the user simply adding ethnic descriptions or categories (albeit Patapsco913 appears to know how to define purely ethnic identification); indeed, it includes many such edits that have been to attempt to define people as religiously Jewish by synthesizing source material (this edit, which made presumptions not stated in the source explicitly, is an example of this).
  Based on all of this, it is my belief that we should look at the whole of a person's conduct in a topic area when deciding to issue a sanction. As such, I believe one is heavily warranted here. I think a 12 month restriction, with the standard enforcement procedures, is the best route to go here to prevent further disruption. Lastly, I want to note that WP:CANVASSING is not permitted in any manner; this is especially so if it is directed at people whom the user believes are biased in their favour. --TheSandDoctor 03:17, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
• Ordinarily as a sitting arbitrator I wouldn't comment here, since the issue might come before the Committee, but this has been open for a week now and needs progress, and there are important principles involved, so I'll go ahead. I agree with everyone that we can't be describing a living person, or for that matter a deceased person, as "Jewish" without a solid reference that he or she is or was Jewish. General references to Jewishness in the person's or the person's family's background are not sufficient; on the other hand, there does come a point where the evidence is overwhelming that the person is or was Jewish, especially for historical rather than living persons, even if the exact words "he is/was Jewish" do not appear. I think Patapsco913 has been trying in good faith to get these things right, but sometimes has misjudged where the line separating sufficient from insufficient sourcing, on this sometimes sensitive point, should be drawn. My suggestion going forward is that Patapsco913 only add a reference to an article subject's Jewishness is the sourcing is crystal-clear, and that otherwise he should post to the article talkpage or ask a trusted editor for a second opinion. If Patapsco will do these things, can we agree that a topic-ban should not be necessary? Also, even if the consensus were that a topic-ban is warranted, am I right that all the BLP issues involve disputed claims of Jewishness? If that is the case, at most a limited topic-ban from adding references to that specific topic would seem sufficient, and a very broad topic-ban from all editing about living or recently deceased people would seem to be overbroad. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:05, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
  • This makes sense. Can I boil this down into specific proposals?
    • Option 1: Patapsco913 may only categorize article subjects as Jewish if those people are explicitly referred to as such in reliable WP:Secondary or Tertiary sources; otherwise they should post to the article talkpage or ask a trusted editor for a second opinion.
    • Option 2: Patapsco913 is prohibited from categorizing article subjects as Jewish.

In option 1 I took the liberty of tweaking User:Newyorkbrad's suggestion to make it more specific. (Specifying secondary sources eliminates ambiguity about using stuff like genealogy sites, marriage records, census records, etc.) But I'm by no means married to that language.

My first preference would be Option 1 with whatever tweaks people think are needed, but I won't oppose option 2 if that's where the consensus leans. ~Awilley (talk) 04:00, 12 March 2020 (UTC) I now support "no action" per . ~Awilley (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2020 (UTC) I think the commitment Patapsco made above is good enough that a formal sanction isn't necessary at this time. Also note that Kevin (the admin who initiated this) also thinks this can be dropped. ~Awilley (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• I'd support option 2 as a bare minimum, though I would be more inclined to support a ban from racial, ethnic and religious classification, i.e. a traditional topic ban from the generalized subject area. A BLP ban would seem standard in a situation where a user is intentionally causing disruption in a BLP because they refuse to abide by the policy. The issue is a fundamental, common-sense sourcing issue. It strongly comes across as a serious competence issue or a willful disruption issue in BLP settings. The user has been unwilling to listen to reason and policy explanations and has in fact explicitly rejected them. NYB's counterargument seems to be that the user is simply obsessed with classifying people as "Jewish", to the extent that they will reject BLP policy. I don't see this as a particularly convincing mitigating factor when the problems are so willful and straightforward. ~Swarm~ 03:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
• I concur with Swarm in supporting Awilley's option #2, wherein Patapsco913 is restricted from categorizing or describing article subjects as Jewish, broadly construed. I believe this is a decent administrative compromise, and will address the issue at hand. --TheSandDoctor 04:07, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
  • @Swarm and TheSandDoctor: (or others in agreement with them) Could you point to some examples of recent edits that lead you to conclude that this stringent a restriction is necessary? Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:30, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
    • Hello Newyorkbrad, here are two diffs. Special:Diff/940254355 appears to be reading purely between the lines whilst not being supported by what is actually written in jweekly, and Special:Diff/943104971 is the diff that Kevin banned Patapsco913 for in the first place, where he demanded someone prove a negative while re-adding doubiously sourced content. This is evidence of a clear continuation of a long-lasting editorial pattern of behavior that is not acceptable and further failure to get the point. --TheSandDoctor 05:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Crawford88

Pectore

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:Sotuman

Moksha88

Race and intelligence

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Race and intelligence

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

ජපස (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:48, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Article and talkpage where enforcement is requested

Race and intelligence (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Editors reminded and discretionary sanctions (amended)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

At Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Exclude IP accounts and the result of Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Dispute_resolution diff there seems to be some strong arguments made that this area should not be subject to IP editing for fear of sockpuppetry and its attendant abuses. Some commentary indicated that "community input" was needed, but as these pages are under DS, I request an administrator to step in and force the issue. Allowing IP editing on the talkpage is entirely disruptive and is additionally causing issues with respect to measuring consensus and being able to track history as one particular user is using a dynamic IP that changes essentially constantly. Previous requests to semi-protect the page were rebuffed at WP:RfPP since it was beyond their remit. I believe that judicious application of this remedy here via WP:AE would help in these disputes. It might also help to apply it to additional related pages, but I'll leave that to others to propose in due time. jps (talk) 16:48, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C: I sympathize with the exhaustion, but please understand that this sort of behavior is very taxing on the editors who are trying their level best to figure out how to navigate the minefield. When there are WP:SEALIONs who hide behind dynamic IPs, it really shuts down the ability for us to do the normal work that has to be done (as witnessed by the close of the WP:DR). The user in question refuses to get a user account so we can keep track of the ongoing issues, so it would be good to force the issue. We don't need more IP disruption. jps (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C: I'm sorry that it is a section's worth of material, here, but the concept is pretty clear. How does one begin to document the problems with an IP account when the IP changes sometimes over the course of less than one day? Why should this particular talkpage be open to IP editing? What is it gaining us? I can point to what the frustrations and difficulties are. Is it a "targeted" request? Only inasmuch as the IP refuses to get an account. But the IP could get an account and edit away. I'm not asking for autoconfirmed protection here. We just want to keep track of who is saying what! jps (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I don't think the special contributions method works very well. It seems to me that there are a lot of false positives in this list of edits: I feel like I'm in a catch-22 situation here where the admins are annoyed because I'm not providing a lot of evidence, but I'm having a hard time finding a way to actually collect the evidence. We're talking about an article under discretionary sanctions so if this isn't avoiding WP:SCRUTINY, what is it? jps (talk) 19:49, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Notification of the enforcement request placed at the talkpage

.

Discussion concerning Race and intelligence

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Mr rnddude

This is forum-shopping. There is insufficient support for ejecting IP editors from being able to comment on Talk:Race and intelligence, and IP editors are already restricted from being able to edit the article. JPS's proposal failed to gain adequate traction. Misplaced Pages is not a dictatorship, we do not need autocratic measures. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:03, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich (R&I)

Ivanvector just closed Talk:Race and intelligence#Exclude IP accounts as no consensus. No comment on whether this should be an AE thing or an RFC or what, but I think it's worth noting, on the numbers, that proposal looks like it went 10 opposed, 9 support. But of the opposes, two editors are now TBANed and/or indef'd, 2 are IPs, 2 are non-EC SPA accounts, and 4 are registered EC accounts. Discount non-EC !votes and it's 9 - 4 in support. (I didn't !vote but I would have supported it.) I think there is already consensus to semi-protect the talk page. Levivich  18:24, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Race and intelligence#Dispute resolution and Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Race and intelligence (esp. the close) are recent examples. Levivich  18:58, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ivanvector and El C: I'm sorry but Special:Contributions/2600:1004:b140::/44 does not capture all recent IP contribs. For example, that range omits the following IP addresses, each of which have edited Talk:Race and intelligence, or the dispute resolution page I linked to above, and/or some other related page (like Heiner Rindermann), within the last two weeks:

• Special:Contributions/73.149.246.232
• Special:Contributions/99.48.35.129
• Special:Contributions/2600:1012:B042:1ED6:89E2:C68C:38B:3A8
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B103:9123:1079:DE3D:EFC6:DBAA
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B104:18E8:5017:B34A:213B:7FF
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B105:F5A1:A997:5864:C95E:CEE5
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B10E:C9DC:6534:B680:DCC4:B176
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B110:F899:1956:2391:D5E7:7747
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B114:998F:FCCA:1F19:F350:4F83
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B128:9F1B:21FF:5EF4:AEE0:D46A
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B12C:3F1:5D:BFBB:13A7:BC8F
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B151:D5C8:CD41:D6AC:F49A:96
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B165:30CA:C564:EA41:44BC:DC1
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B166:536E:8800:9BF8:FCBA:FABB
• Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B169:3DC3:813F:ED9F:D586:BA78

At the DR request, 2600:1012:B042:1ED6:89E2:C68C:38B:3A8 stated that they were a different editor than 99.48.35.129 or 2600:1004:B166:536E:8800:9BF8:FCBA:FABB. That was three days ago, and 2600:1012's only contribs are to the DR page. I have no idea how many people these IPs are. Does anyone? How do we have a discussion like this? I'm not sure what AE can do, but the problem is definitely a real problem. Levivich  19:48, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

30/500 protection would help. Just look at all the SPAs (I just tagged them) at Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#RfC on race and intelligence. Same thing with the DR request–new IPs just popping up to join that conversation? This is like IPA, not just the article, but the whole topic area should be 30/500. Also, an editor who cannot use cookies would not be able to log in to JSTOR, Gale, PubMed, or any other website on the web, so that begs the question, if you can't register an account because your device doesn't support cookies (and what kind of device doesn't support cookies?), then you can't read any of the sources, either, unless you have print copies of all of them, and if you can't read the sources, then how can you participate in discussions about the sources? Also, what kind of device doesn't support cookies but supports PDFs? I'm not really buying this claim. Anyway, 30/500 helps IPA, it'll help here, too. Levivich  17:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Dlthewave

• A quick procedural note: JPS ජපස filed this request at 10:48 17 March 2020, and Ivanvector closed the "Exclude IP accounts" talk page discussion at 12:08 17 March 2020. I'll comment later in greater detail, but I want to make sure this sequence is clear since it's relevant to the forum shopping/venue concerns. –dlthewave ☎ 18:46, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• We are seeing a certain amount of "civil POV pushing" from IP(s) at the R&I article. This type of behavior is difficult to demonstrate through a set of diffs; I know it's tedious, but I would encourage folks to read through the Global variation of IQ scores: proposal opened by the IP. Note that every time an editor raises concerns about the heavy use of Hunt and Rindermann sources, the IP dismisses them by citing a recent RSN discussion which concluded that they are reliable. Although this is technically true, they're ignoring the fact that the closer also stated that these sources must be treated as fringe since there is no evidence that their views are widely accepted. The IP doesn't seem willing to accept this consensus; they even stated "There was not a consensus at RSN that these sources are fringe" after this was pointed out to them. It's very difficult to work with an editor who doesn't accept other editors' NPOV concerns and insists that we use the "best available" sources even when those sources do not represent a mainstream view. Dispute resolution is not an option since the volunteers at that noticeboard are unwilling to work with an unregistered editor. –dlthewave ☎ 16:31, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Ivanvector, the consensus I'm referring to is here: "... The discussion indicated that there is a lack of sources supporting or opposing the notion that the views in these books are fringe, though when a viewpoint does not have wide support, we do treat it as fringe, and do not give it undue weight. That is, we can give the views of Rindermann and Hunt, sourced to their books published by the Cambridge University Press, but take care not to promote their views as widely accepted unless/until sources can be found which indicate their views are widely accepted." This is from the closing statement at RSN. The IP frequently selectively quotes other parts of the closing statement to support their view that Hunt and Rindermann are the some of the best sources on the topic, while ignoring these final sentences.

Regarding DRN, please see the recent close by Robert McClenon. The request was declined for several reasons but registering an account seemed to be a firm requirement for future requests by the IP editor(s).

There were apparently two different 2600 IP editors who participated at DRN: The one who made the initial request and a second who commented. I would suggest that we treat the second IP with the same level of scrutiny as a brand-new registered editor whose first edit was a detailed description of a dispute at DRN. –dlthewave ☎ 17:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

I agree with Levivich's analysis. This is a WP:FALSECONSENSUS situation (more precisely, a false failure to come to consensus). As a long-term though very intermittent patroller of this and related "race" articles, I know from long experience that the majority of input from anons there is not constructive and that their unconstructive input is frequent. I mean seriously 100 archive pages? The amount of editorial time wasted on trolls and socks and meat is probably the reason the article is in such not-exactly-FA-material shape. When sockpuppeteers are forced to create new accounts to do what they do, it's much easier to patrol them (if a new account's first edit is to run to this article and make posts that say the same things as the last 10 socks of Mikemikev that we blocked, we have a tidy WP:DUCK situation). If an anon who insists on remaining one is dead certain there's a policy/sourcing issue to raise about this article, they can do so at the appropriate WP:Noticeboard, which will also have sufficient uninvolved watchlisters to address the matter if legitimate, or get a disruptive socker blocked all the more quickly. But that article's talk page (very recent attention notwithstanding) is a backwater playground for trolling sockpuppets and has been for years. That's not what article talk pages are for.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:34, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Sirfurboy

Having been summoned by In actu (talk · contribs)'s ping, I must confess I am confused by: "I would like a firm argument as to why we haven't reached the point for the AE admins to file a request for a second review of the original case on WP:ARCA." What was the original case we are referring to? I don't think it was anything I was involved in unless you are referring to the AfD.

As I am here though, El_C (talk · contribs) says: "I think (any) :2600 IPs should be seen as a single individual in the context of this topic area." 2600::/16 is about half of the ARIN IPv6 address space!, and in this case conflates at least two editors. The recent IP editors to this or related pages are:

• 2600:1004:B1::/40 - A good faith editor on a dynamic IP who has stated he cannot use cookies.
• 2600:1012:B042:1ED6:89E2:C68C:38B:3A8 - seen only at Dispute Resolution. Definitely an SPA, acted like a Sprayitchyo sock.
• 2605:8d80:660::/42 - All edits from this range on this subject appear to be Sprayitchyo socks.
• 73.149.246.232 - an IP user who got heavily involved in the AfD to the point of looking like an SPA but edits appear in good faith.
• 99.48.35.129 - seen only at Dispute Resolution. SPA that weighed in to support Sprayitchyo socks.

Sprayitchyo is a problem, and SMcCandlish (talk · contribs) makes a good case about past issues from other IP trolls, but let's be clear that we can identify "2600:1004:b1::/40" from the others, and the actual number of IP editors on this article at this time is at most 5 and almost entirely just the one editor. We cannot selectively allow one IP editor so the community must decide whether the loss of edits from one editor who has acted in good faith is acceptable in pursuing closing down of other IP socking issues. I make no !vote on that. I said before I would not take a side on this issue, and I will not do so now. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

I will respond on behalf of DRN. We haven't had a position of coordinator for more than a year, and I cannot recall Nihlus ever actually mediating a dispute anyway. I closed a dispute request by an unregistered editor, concerning Race and Intelligence, for various reasons, including that at least two editors said that they did not think that DRN was in order, as well as that it is more difficult to conduct dispute resolution with an unregistered editor whose IP address changes. There are at least two unregistered editors in Race and intelligence, one using various IPv6 addresses in the 2600.1004.* range, and one using IPv4 addresses in either the 99.* range or the 73.* range.

Also, I think that there was conflation of Dispute Resolution, which is a policy and a general process, and the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, which is a specific forum for carrying out the process. Some of the administrators here at Arbitration Enforcement said that the parties should be using Dispute Resolution rather than dragging their disputes to a conduct forum. I think that 2600.1004 thought that they had been told to go to DRN, which is only one of the forums for dispute resolution. DRN is voluntary. All of the dispute resolution processes are voluntary, except for Request for Comments, which has the advantage that it is binding.

I would prefer to work with editors who have names and so whose handles do not change. However, if there is a dispute where editors and administrators agree that DRN involving one or more unregistered editors with dynamic IP addresses in blocks is the best way to resolve the dispute, I am willing to act as the mediator, at least if I have an administrator backing me up, that is, ready to intervene so that intervention is not necessary.

User:Ivanvector? User:RegentsPark? User:Sirfurboy?

Do at least two editors have a content dispute where they agree that moderated dispute resolution at DRN is the best way to resolve the dispute? Are they willing to abide by the usual rules? Or is this not really about DRN after all? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:29, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

It appears, now that I have reviewed this dispute, that this specific filing is not about DRN. To restate, I would prefer that parties to mediation at DRN be registered editors, because shifting IPs are a complication; there isn't an absolute rule against unregistered editors participating in moderated dispute resolution. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

However, the issue in this case appears to be whether to semi-protect a talk page due to disruption by unregistered editors. Semi-protecting a talk page can be done as an extreme measure, but is an extreme measure, and almost certainly is not needed in this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:15, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Race and intelligence

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Not this again! El_C 17:06, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• @ජපස: have you tried weighing local consensus on this? You are asking me to review a lot of material here. This is not a well-documented request. El_C 18:08, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• @RegentsPark: could you link to this RfC, please? El_C 18:19, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks, regentspark. I would decline the request at this time as forum shopping. El_C 18:32, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Levivich: the next step should have been WP:CLOSECHALLENGE, not AE. El_C 18:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• @ජපස: but by forcing the IP to get an account, we are effectively reversing the closing admin's decision. They are an integral part of the conversation. Maybe they support granting your request, in which case I withdraw my objection. El_C 18:45, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• On further thought, perhaps the sanction of forcing the IP to identify isn't the worse idea. If they are difficult to identify, that could be taxing for the already troubled topic area. El_C 18:51, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• No objection on simply referring this to the Committee, either. El_C 18:55, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for your guidance, Ivanvector. If the IP isn't really that difficult to identify, then this request is a non-starter. El_C 19:32, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Levivich: I think (any) :2600 IPs should be seen as a single individual in the context of this topic area. Until we have definitive evidence to the contrary, it is on them. For them to account for. I'm just not sure there's much that should be done otherwise. El_C 19:54, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• Hmm, this is an interesting request. On the face of it, there isn't a whole lot of IP activity to ban and it does seem like a targeted request. However, race and intelligence has been a contested area for a long time and has been plagued by long term SPAs and their sock and meat puppets. I don't think there is consensus (in the RfC) for banning IPs outright but this might be worth visiting after the RfC closes. --regentspark (comment) 18:13, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

  Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Exclude_IP_accounts. IvanVector has now closed this as no consensus. --regentspark (comment) 18:25, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

  I haven't looked at the content of this IPs edits but, historically, it has been very hard to deal with a particular group of editors in this area. Polite SPAs who stay within the bounds of AGF but consistently push fringe views was what lead to the arbcom cases in the first place. Identifying IPs is hard and dealing with unidentifiable fringe pushers can be frustrating and complicated and I'm not averse to banning IPs from a contentious and problematic talk page like this one. Or, as suggested above, perhaps this needs to go back to arbcom. --regentspark (comment) 21:05, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

  Took a look at the edits by the IP in question and I think we should implement closing the talk page to IP editors proposal. Perhaps they are genuinely not a sock but the content, the "am I doing this right" (Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Dispute_resolution), the politeness,.. Like I say above, this area has been plagued by polite SPAs and the only reasonable way to AGF is to attach a moniker to each and every editor. --regentspark (comment) 19:33, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) has Ivanvector closed the discussion. I would like a firm argument as to why we haven't reached the point for the AE admins to file a request for a second review of the original case on WP:ARCA with ජපස, NightHeron, 2600:::, Sirfurboy, Dlthewave, ArtifexMayhem, Levivich, Jweiss11, SMcCandlish, Grayfell, PaleoNeonate as parties. Handing this off to ArbCom is starting to sound really good to me. --In actu (Guerillero) 18:39, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
• As several of you have already observed, I closed the discussion as "no consensus", as in, it's not clear a consensus either way was established or was going to emerge. I don't really have any comment on the merits of the proposal, but in my opinion, universally banning IP editors from all possibility of contributing to an article without clear evidence of ongoing disruption requires a much more substantial consensus than what was evident in that discussion. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 18:42, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

  A couple extra points (for free no less):

  • @ජපස: the IP editor's contributions can be seen at Special:Contributions/2600:1004:b140::/44, more or less. There are some edits by other users there but it's mostly just that one editor on that range, since about mid-February (I only looked at the last 50 edits). It is true that you cannot ping them (effectively, at least), but mitigating that technical difficulty is on them, not us.
  • There is presently just the one IP editor participating at Talk:Race and intelligence. If they're being disruptive they can be blocked.
  • I don't know how we can "force" an IP editor to create an account, but in my opinion doing so would not be against the "no consensus" close. "No consensus" = nothing was decided. It would be highly unusual though.
  • "Anyone can edit" is the third pillar of Misplaced Pages. If we don't have a very good reason to prevent IP editors from editing, we don't.
  • Dlthewave is correct about the timeline: I closed the talk page discussion after this AE request was opened. I don't necessarily agree that this request does not constitute forum-shopping, as requests for closure are normally listed at requests for closure, not here, but you all can form your own opinions on this point.

  -- Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:30, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

• My analysis of the talk page discussion is that consensus was not established. I don't think there's anything for AE to do with this, but if the editors bothered by IP participation feel strongly about it, a proposal to enact a 30/500 general sanction for the article could be made at WP:AN (I have WP:GS/IPAK in mind when I say this, although I don't think that applies to talk pages either). To Sirfurboy's analysis I agree: geolocation of the first "good faith" IP range is several thousand miles away from the two suspected sockpuppet ranges, and both are in areas where geolocation is generally reliable, and I don't see any indication of proxy abuse. The "good faith" editor's range does appear to be /40 although it's advertised in WHOIS as /44, but WHOIS is unreliable for CIDR. I should say I have not checked any of these addresses, I'm going by publicly available info. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 16:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

@Dlthewave: "the volunteers at are unwilling to work with an unregistered editor" - WTF? IP editors are editors and have disputes needing resolution too. Nihlus is the current DRN coordinator, perhaps they can comment on this. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 16:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Robert McClenon, I was hoping that was a miscommunication or exaggeration (the "no IP editors at DRN" sentiment). I think based on what you're saying that this is a matter that Arbcom should handle as a case. Several community discussions have failed to resolve the issue. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 12:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

GlassBones

PainMan

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning PainMan

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

FDW777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:36, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

PainMan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Standard discretionary sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 03:33, 19 March 2020 Edits John Mitchel, a prominent Irish nationalist activist
2. 03:35, 19 March 2020 Further edit to John Mitchel
3. 03:51, 19 March 2020 Edits Young Irelander Rebellion of 1848, an Irish nationalist uprising against British rule
4. 09:14, 19 March 2020 Edits Land War, which is again about Irish nationalism

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 20:25, 1 March 2020 You are indefinitely topic-banned from making edits relating to The Troubles, broadly construed

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Already subject to discretionary sanctions, see above section.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Standard discretionary sanctions makes it clear it isn't just limited to articles relating to The Troubles, but covering Irish nationalism in general.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning PainMan

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Statement by PainMan

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