Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:57, 17 December 2006

• Misplaced Pages talk:Vanity guidelines/Archive 1
• /Archive2
• Premerge talk page of third section

Name change

This page used to be called "vanity guidelines" and has recently been renamed. The reason behind that is that the term "vanity" can be seen as derogatory by people outside Misplaced Pages, who are unaware that we use a "local" definition of the word that does not match the most common outside definition. The problem with the term is that if an article on a NN business is deleted, it is quite likely that the deletion debate will show up on Google, and be listed pretty high in the search rankings. The owner of that business may then become very upset that we're calling him vanity, especially if he didn't write the article himself. This might sound like a hypothetical problem, but since Misplaced Pages has become the world's 10th most popular website, it happens a lot, and people complain about it over OTRS. Hence, the new name. We should avoid using derogatory terms if at all possible. >Radiant< 08:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yay! I think this is a great change. I never liked using the term, as it didn't really embody the assumption of good faith that smoothes a lot of discussions with well-meaning newbies. Thanks to whomever did this. William Pietri 05:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

One minor issue: this page says that WP:COI links here. It doesn't. Since I'm not quite sure what's going on with the move and merge I won't touch it for now, but I wanted to point it out. William Pietri 05:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• It does now :) >Radiant< 08:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

One puppy's opinion, but anyone who doesn't realize we're using vanity in the extremely common useage as in Vanity press is not very well informed. There is nothing defamatory about this accurate use of the word. See further comments below, section titled Vanity. KillerChihuahua 17:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree on principle. However, I don't think that in this case it is a bad move. Not because there's anything wrong with the term vanity, but rather because the new title addresses a wider range of problems. Of course, the WP:VAIN shortcut was a lot easier to remember. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• I too, would like to support the use of the word "vanity". I do not see any difference between the way we use it here and the way the world uses it. To drop it seems to be overdone political correctness. Which bites the newbie harder to say: "your article displays a conflict of interest" or "your article is vanity"? -- RHaworth 07:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The second, obviously. It's not a matter of political correctness, it's about the fact that many people complain to the Misplaced Pages office because they feel they're being treated unjustly. A high schooler writing about himself is both vanity and COI. However, if the friend of the owner of a small store writes about that store, "COI" is a reasonable interpretation, but "vanity" is derogatory. >Radiant< 13:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Admininistrator's Vanity Pages - William Connolley

The William Connolley vanity page, which has only been protected from several attempts at deletion by Connolley himself and his fellow Misplaced Pages administrators, is seemingly exempt from the rules against vanity pages. If you object to this page, make your feelings known. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.73.41 (talk • contribs) .

You do realise this was created by User:Ed Poor, a long time ago? Charles Matthews 19:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have concerns about Connolley's notability, you could always list the article on WP:AfD, following the proper process. As is, it's not in any way a vanity page since Connolley did not write it. Of course, you're blocked for disruption, vandalism, and personal attacks anyway, but if you still care when you get back... --tjstrf 21:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Discipleship

There as very recent arbComn case that ruled quite differently than what this section attempts to describe. See: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Proposed_decision#Proposed_final_decision. Wording changed accordingly. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Note that Charles Matthews, as an arbitrator in that case, was arguing for a similar wording, but it was rejected by the other members of the ArbCom. So, I find it quite peculiar that he chose to add this to this guideline, despite that decision. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• Rejected by the ArbCom: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Proposed_decision#Editing your guru's article

• Approved by the ArbCom: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Proposed_decision#Editing a religious leader's article

Well, I would have thought that the wording that has been removed, starting with the hypothetical example of Engels editing Marx, was quite far from the line that was discussed, restricted to 'gurus'. I have never thought that 'guru' was something to single out. But in any case this page is the guideline page. As I have said before, policy pages are open for discussion, while ArbCom votes neither make policy, nor are open for general contributions. So I invite people to compare my section added, entitled 'Discipleship', and see whether it fits better here than User:Jossi's version.

By the way, I only came here fairly recently, after User:David Gerard suggested on the wikien list that the page needed attention, after its renaming to get rid of the 'vanity' title. Sorting the material suggested that 'editing from too close' was a major category causing examples of various kinds to arise. The 'discipleship' issue is one that would naturally have fitted there anyway. I am hardly likely to forget the extensive discussions of this that User:Jossi has put me through on this, here and on meta. They certainly served to sharpen my appreciation of this issue; and to clarify why exactly I think disciples are particularly at risk of conflicts of interest.

Charles Matthews 22:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

We can bring up the arguments to this page, if you so wish. My arguments have been that making a distinction specifically about disciples of gurus, or senseis, is improper, as there are other relationships that are as stronger (or stronger) in other religious, political and other human endeavors. Notwithstanding the example of Engels and Marx (that may be restored) a Wikipeda guideline that attempts to warn followers of eastern traditions on the perils of editing article about their teachers, while not warning similarly biased people from western traditions, is in my view a poor display of understanding these traditions, and a non-so-veiled western bias. I see no difference between the possible problems an editor would have in keeping his edits in full compliance with out content policies if he is a member of the Opus Dei editing the article on Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, a member of the Lawton Foundation editing Fidel Castro, a Chabad Lubavitch follower editing The Rebbe, or a neophyte from the Drepung Monastery editing the article on Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama. Thus, any guideline or policy should not make distinctions based on people affiliations, be these religious, political, scientific, or otherwise: Misplaced Pages guidelines needs to be religious (as well as political) agnostic, in my view. I would delete the whole section altogether. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Disclosure: I have a teacher, that some may consider a religious leader or "guru" ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I have attempted to merge both versions into one that may capture the principle of "close relationships". It needs work, but may be the basis for a compromise version. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like jossi's compromise is reasonable; would you agree, Charles? Jayjg 15:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

No, because it has cut out the word 'disciple'. This is unhelpful. It is not helpful on this page to have exhortations to respect NPOV. As it says at the top of the article, this page is about the recognition of COI, and that requires more. 'You should be partiularly careful' is an unhelpful wording, because, as of right now, Misplaced Pages:Editing with a conflict of interest is supposed to cover that issue. So I object to the blurring that has gone on. I would like to see this section stay on-topic for this page, not wander off. Charles Matthews 12:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Blurring? Do you mean the disagreement over using that wording? The new wording does not exclude discipleship, and includes additional situations. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like that section to address the specific problems of "close relationships" without making specific arguments based on value judgements that single out a specific worldview. I would appreciate that rather than saying "I object", the arguments presented are discussed, the concerns addressed, and new wording that can be agreed, explored. I am also of the understanding that no guideline can override policy. Thus, having a guideline that may contradicts two established policies of WP:NPOV and WP:NPA, is not acceptable, so caveats and explanations are needed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Note that there is a request to merge Misplaced Pages:Editing with a conflict of interest. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that, and have expressed my opposition. The page on editing with a COI starts off like this: In keeping with Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict can or might be justifiably assumed based on the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. That is clear, that is firm, and I think that is a good statement of where policy on COI is heading, and has always been heading. That is how the guideline stands. One can say that the wording currently standing here approximates to that, in a sense: You should be particularly cautious when editing an article about a person you have a close relationship with. If you cannot abide strictly by Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and Misplaced Pages:No original research, then you should avoid editing such articles. This is what you have inserted. There are problems with that. Firstly, it a weaker form; it suggests that anyone who feels that they can handle their COI can indeed edit. In that way, it merely restates something about NPOV. Secondly, it removed the element of deprecation of editing with a COI which is utterly clear on Misplaced Pages:Editing with a conflict of interest. Thirdly, it is on the wrong page. As I have pointed out, the introduction to this page defines its scope, and the advice is not within that scope. Charles Matthews 16:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with that argument, Charles. But you are not addressing the core of mine. My concern is one about making a statement that is based on a narrow view of what discipleship is, and the wording about edits being "suspect" (your wording: Edits by those whose loyalties to such a teacher transcend any stake in this project may have to be treated as suspect. You are assuming (a) these loyalties transcend a stake in the project; and (b) these edits have to be treated as suspect. Let me give you an example, with your wording all edits made by Sikhs to the Guru Granth Sahib will be labelled "suspect", as they consider that book to be their Guru. Would it not be a similar situation if an editor is loyal to a cause such as anti-abortion? (Check the talk page of any article about which there are stromg POVs...) What is the thinking (or may I say, bias) to say that discipleship is any different that other loyalties that exist that may be as strong or stronger? As long as an editor is able to comply with WP policies, he is welcome to edit any article regardless of his POVs, biases, and loyalties. If he is not able to comply, then we do not care if he has loyalties or not. Yes, anyone that not only feels capable but actually does comply to WP policies, can edit Misplaced Pages. I look forward to see a proposal that will bridge between our understanding on the subject. One alternative that I proposed before, is to delete that specific section. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll broaden out the principle, that those loyalties to transcend any stake in this project, all you like. Fill in the ellipsis with anything that fits the bill, and, I should have thought, you have a fine, capacious version of 'conflict of interest'. But I am going to adjourn this discussion to your User Talk now. Charles Matthews 17:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

A broading of the principle may work. Give it a go. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

My edits

• Combined Charles Mathews' section on "Discipleship" and expanded it to include wording about "close relationships" in a more generic manner as per above arguments;
• Combined some sections that were related;
• Some copyedit for clarity;
• Expanded on the policy section;

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Vanity

"Avoid using the word "vanity" in a deletion discussion — this has created serious problems. Remember that such an accusation may be defamatory." Why? This is nonsense. "Vanity" is not defamatory. Strongly oppose inclusion of this "walking-on-eggshells because we may offend some thin skinned vanity editor" clause. KillerChihuahua 17:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I could agree with that. Let us find wording that presents a way to avoid flamewars in AfDs for these reasons. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. Jayjg 18:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not the word 'vanity', it is the form of argument that attacks notability. If you end up saying that a distinguished person, for example an academic, is not distiguished (which is the notability criterion generally applied in that career), you are attacking their livelihood and may be libelling them. Charles Matthews 12:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I've done a copy edit to tighten it, as it was repetitive and a bit patronizing; I also removed some bits that seemed to make no sense (e.g. the bit about defamation via pseudo-vanity). SlimVirgin 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Close relationships section

Expanded on SlimVirgin's edit, and removed the specific examples as per my objections in this page. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You have again removed the word 'discipleship', and again without prior discussion. You are very clearly a conflicted editor in so doing, and I have explained at great length on your User Talk that you are in violation of very specific matters laid down in terms on Misplaced Pages:Editing with a conflict of interest, for editing with any conflict of interest, or apparent conflict of interest. The fact that the page that you are editing in this way is the guideline defining conflict of interest only makes it more serious as a matter. If the edits I made were not fair-minded, I imagine I would be told so, by someone else. I think anyone here would tell you to leave it to others, to deal with such matters. As on a previous occasion, and as I have pointed out, you are acting in haste. The fact that you have denied this to me, in the discussion I was having with you, does nothing to increase my confidence in your edits. Charles Matthews 21:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I hear you, Charles. As of now, and to dispel such concerns I will no longer edit this guideline directly. Nevertheless, I will continue making contributions to the discussion via this talk page, with the expectation that my arguments will be taken on their merits. As a note of caution, I would forward the fact that you have not listened to recommendations from other editors such as User:Jayjg to accept a compromise version, and the fact that you have been keen in introducing the disputed language despite consensus to the contrary. That does not increase my confidence in your edits either. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There you go again: I have told you that I have solicited advice from my Arbitrator colleagues. I think you might assume that User:Jayjg and I have a collegiate relationship, and you certainly must know that we discuss matters offline. Why you think I'm going to respond to attempts to drive a wedge between us on this, I have no idea. You are most welcome to participate in this discussion, on an ongoing basis. Given the choice between edit wars, and robust debate, I'm on the side of debate, always. Charles Matthews 11:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the phrase "or dependence upon" to: "It is not limited by area, but created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, or organization."

I'm hoping that might be enough to get the "discipleship" idea across without using the word. The point at which an enthusiasm for something turns into a conflict of interest is a very difficult question. We wouldn't want to say that Roman Catholic editors shouldn't edit articles about the Pope, and yet devout Roman Catholics are deeply committed to the papacy in a way that might preclude them from criticizing. We have one situation at the moment, which I won't name directly, where members of a mainstream religious denomination, who are actually employed by one of its branches (one of their job descriptions includes the "development of online resources" about the denomination), are making extensive edits in their area of interest and employment. Should they be stopped? In a sense, yes, because they're highly POV, but on the other hand, they know more about the subject than anyone else.

It's hard to know how to word the policy so that people who love something can still write about it, but people who love it irrationally and even dangerously (e.g. members of a cult) may not. SlimVirgin 12:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that Charles think that I want to "drive a wedge". I don't. I was stating what I believed to be a peculiar situation, as it traspires from this discussion: the intensity and persistent intention of Charles to introduce the terms "disciple" and "follower" despite a consensus of opinion that ruled out that wording. Note that I am not arguing that disciples may not have conflicts of interest. I am arguing that there was a reason for chosing a different wording such as "You should be particularly cautious when editing an article about a person you consider to be your current or former religious leader." The concern expressed was that these reasons have been disregarded in favor of the wording that was rejected. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 12:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Really, this is silly reiteration of an invalid point. Believe me, if the ArbCom votes for one wording on a principle rather than another, there are so many factors involved, probably specific to the case and the light in which it is being viewed, that a consensus of opinion that ruled out that wording is just misdirection. It is hard enough to concentrate on AC cases, and do the right thing, without having to worry about whether the fact that draft A or draft B was preferred as more apt to the case in hand is going to be brought up in some half-baked way later. Charles Matthews 16:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Removing negative info

The "Examples of conflict of interest" lists various types of material that is may be inappropriate to add. But nowhere in the guideline do I see anything about inappropriately removing information that may be perceived as negative. In my experience we have as much or more difficulty with the removal of information as the addition of it. Of course WP:BLP covers unsourced (or poorly source) defamatory material, but we should also mention that it is often inappropriate to remove properly sourced negative information. -Will Beback 22:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

We should also include something about not taking ownership of an article in which one has a COI. -Will Beback 23:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

But those points currently fit better at the 'other' page, Misplaced Pages:Editing with a conflict of interest. For all the attention this page has had, I think that page is the key one. There are going to be various 'edge cases' here to argue over, but what the guideline is for editing is going to be crucial. Charles Matthews 11:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

"Ownership" of articles is already covered in WP:OWN and it applies to all editors, regardless if there is a COI or not. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Currently Misplaced Pages:Editing with a conflict of interest focuses almost exclusively on financial COIs (which are barely mentioned here). Perhaps when this is complete that page can be overhauled to complement this one. -Will Beback 16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The recent drive for this guidelines (formerly "Vanity" guidelines), was based mostly on these types of COIs, recently extended to financial and other obvious ones such a PR companies. The other page was only started on August 9, 2006 by User:Eloquence: See diff. There is a proposal on the table to merge these two, about which there is not yet consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Engels not a 'follower' of Marx?

Really? (Prompted by User:Jossi cutting out the word 'follower'.) Let's go over to Isaiah Berlin:

In his own lifetime Engels desired no better fate than to live in the light of Marx's teaching, perceiving in him a spring of original genius which gave life and scope to his own peculiar gifts; with him he identified himself and his work, to be rewarded by sharing in his master's immortality.

This being from Berlin's Karl Marx, 4th edition p. 75. Well, that certainly says it all, for the 'close relationships' section, as far as I'm concerned. That attitude, or even a fractional part of it, could define 'too close', better than my efforts so far.

Therefore the toning down of 'follower' to 'associate' seems to me to fudge precisely the issue. I'll make it 'follower and collaborator', since there is plenty of academic support. Charles Matthews 11:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It might not be a bad idea to include the Berlin quote, even if only as a footnote. It's a good description of exactly the kind of attitude toward a person or group that would spark a conflict of interest in the editor. SlimVirgin 12:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That is the opinion of Berlin. Surely other readers will be as suprised as I was when I saw the term "follower" associated with Engels. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Having said that, I do not object to having that example if accompanied with the quote as a footnote. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It definitely feels like Berlin is pretty off-base with this. I understand why Berlin writes that, there's a certain school of Marxian hagiography that takes that line (Berlin not being a MarxIST, but still having a somewhat wrongheaded deference here). Engels was much more important in his own light, and "colleague" (or maybe "junior colleague") is more in line. Nonetheless, it seems like the error is fairly harmless, and having the footnote illustrates the point being made... even if Berlin is wrong, the type of hypotethetical relationship he describes is OK for "conflict of interest". LotLE×talk 16:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

'Generic statements'

It says in the guideline intro There is no list of criteria to help editors determine what counts as a conflict of interest.

I read this as saying that to some extent this page is going to have to give examples of what is meant. Specifics are good, because they point to something concrete. Generic statements are not going to cut it. Therefore I object to User:Jossi removing specifics, saying he prefers generic versions. As things stand, that is editing across the grain of the page. (I also regret that tightening has taken out quite so much of the particular material, but one discussion point at a time ...) Charles Matthews 11:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Charles, if my tightening took out too much, by all means put some of it back. SlimVirgin 12:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I have already gave several examples during this and previous discussions on ths subject.

"If you are a follower of Opus Dei editing the article on Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, a member of the Lawton Foundation editing Fidel Castro, a Chabad Lubavitch follower editing The Rebbe, a neophyte from the Drepung Monastery editing the article on Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama, or an active proponent of Consistent Life Ethic editing the article on abortion, for example, you may be in conflict of interest."

But I still believe that is a matter of degree. My concern remains that this guideline will be poorly understood and applied in hundreds of articles about which there are strong POVs at play. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

And it shouldn't be applied? I think one should bear in mind that some guidelines are least likely to be attended to, when they most should. Charles Matthews 14:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Surely guidelines should be applied! The concern is that rather than using a shotgun loaded with pellets, we should be using a sniper rifle. What I mean is that this guideline, if not carefully crafted, will likely be use as a witch-hunt by POV warriors against contributors. Shoudn't we explore the possible negative consequences of guidelines? I think that it would be irresponsible not to. I see many, and will list them here shortly. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

There is certainly plenty to say on difficulties of handling this, unexpected consequences and so on. You might be interested in a personal essay I posted earlier today. Charles Matthews 14:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have read your essay and the comments in talk. Do not understand the need for two separate discussions, but nevertheless, it helps clarify your position on the matter. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Document mode ≠ thread mode. Charles Matthews 18:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

COI and legal disputes

I propose additional wording to cover people involved in legal disputes with a person or organization that have an article in WP. Something along the lines of: "If you have been involved in a legal dispute with a person or organization, editing the article about that person or organization, or about the legal dispute itself if ther is such article, may constitute a conflict of interest." ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a good idea. SlimVirgin 13:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Declaring COIs

Wording would also be needed about the effects of publicly declaring one's COIs, and the special considerations (if any) that apply if one continues contributing to these articles. We have strong policies in place already that deal with how to edit articles (NPOV, V, NOR, AGF, NPA, etc.) that cover most aspects that protect articles (and the project) from bias. This guideline ought to build on these policies, rather than deprecate them. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You are still applying to the wrong page. This page is about defining what we mean by conflict of interest. This guideline is mis-saying it, therefore.

And the word 'deprecate': we deprecate people who disregard their conflict of interest when editing. We also enjoin on them the absolute respect of the slew of other basic editing policies, such as NPOV. The point being that editing in the teeth of a conflict of interest puts editors in a false position. Their situation is unenviable, if they overstep that line from POV (having a point of view, which we all do in practice much of the time) to COI (having an actual conflict of interest), whether covert or open. In such a false position, any lapses from strictly neutral editing become more serious. I mean, judged as editorial behaviour. They can convert stubbornness (which we all suffer from, to some extent), to arrant POV pushing of an actionable kind.

So in that sense there is no conflict at all between our sheaf of editing policies and the guidelines on editing when subject to a conflict of interest. The new factor is that people need protection, for their own good (read, their good reputation here, at very least) from getting into such a false position in the first place. Now, when it comes to declaring an interest, I think this modifies the guideline not one whit. What it does do, is to make the community aspect easier. It probably facilitates some discussions, it probably helps to create an impression that one recognises the conflict of interest as an issue. It may well help people to back away from things: to stop digging a hole any deeper, and to think about scrambling out. To be able to say 'I have said my piece here', and move on. That all is helpful in its way. Charles Matthews 14:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I am in the wrong page. As I have declared before, I support a merge of these two pages as these are on the same subject. We need clear, non-verbose guidelines. In my experiece, multiple pages on the same subject do not help in fostering clarity (See the mess at WP:RS, WP:NOR, and WP:V and the brave attempt to consolidate these in WP:ATT, for example).

I understand your points above, but I have serious concerns about the basis of your formulation. In the example of a follower of Opus Dei editing the article on Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, according to this guideline, that editor would be ill advised to edit that article. A possible unintended consequence is that a detractor of Opus Dei, will somewhat have a carte blanche to edit that article without such onerous restrictions. "No", you would say, "we have content policies that will deal with that editor and his contributions". But one can argue that NPOV may suffer by not including the viewpoints brought forth by that follower.

So, the issues that we cannot evade in this discussion, are relate to "degree", "motivation" and "intent". As WP policies (so far) have stayed away from such value judgments, I would argue that we should be cautious when crafting a guideline such as this. If an editor, regardless of her biases and declared COIs, is able to demonstrate to the community through her edits that she is well intentioned and that she respects the principles upon which the project is built upon, should the community not accept her contributions? Yes, her edits should be held to much higher standards. And yes, her edits may be suspect at fist glance. And yes, AGF, would be taken cum grano salis in these case, at least initially. But if the editor demonstrates to the community through her edits, her behavior in talk pages and her commitment to the project, that her intentions and motivations are sound, considerations should be made, IMO.

In the life of our project so far, we have had content policies, and a few behavioral policies (such as CIVL, AGF and NPA). Ill intentioned editors have been dealt by the community with user RfCs and the ArbCom as last resort. I would say that this is not a mistake: WP has been built on principles that encourage well intentioned contributors. At least so far, that is. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You may want to read the COI policy of the University of Colorado . I think it is a good example of a sound formulation. I find their distinction between "Conflict of commitment" and "Conflict of interest" to be enlightening (Page 2). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's an interesting distinction but I'm not sure I follow it entirely. They say a "conflict of commitment" (e.g. being paid as a consultant by an outside body) may adversely affect or appear to affect an individual's commitment to the university. A "conflict of interest" is defined as a personal or financial relationship that might affect or appear to affect an individual's judgment vis-à-vis the university. I can't quite see what the distinction would be in practise between compromised commitment and compromised judgment. SlimVirgin 15:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The "conflict of committment" includes the wording "Such activities are encouraged insofar as they are conducted in accordance with University policy (including the one-sixth rule), promote professional development of faculty, and student employees, and enrich their contributions to the institution, to their profession and to the community. Consulting relationships, for example, may serve to create conduits for the exchange of information and technologies that enhance the University environment and permit faculty to test the soundness of their ideas.". They way I read it, in conjunction with their discourse on disclosure, is that not all conflict of committments are negative, if properly managed. I would translate it as follows: "Such activities are encouraged insofar as they are conducted within the content policies of Misplaced Pages, promote the development of sound encyclopedic material, and enrich their contributions to the project and to the community." ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that this issue was discussed previously in regard to experts editing WP. Experts may have a COC while not having a COI, and in the current formulation they may be treated with the same suspicion as a PR company paid to edit their client's article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Carrying out the merge

AFAIK I was the only voice against the merge before. I am now going to carry out the merge anyway, in a style discussed on Misplaced Pages talk: Editing with a conflict of interest. As I said there, this will end up with a tripartite page. I shall take a dim view of anyone who can't respect the division created. Charles Matthews 14:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Charles, it is looking much better. Thank you also for addressing some of my concerns in your last rounds of edits after the merge. A few things you may want to consider:

1. The top portion of Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest#Editing_with_a_conflict_of_interest may be better placed at Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest#Examples_of_conflict_of_interest;
2. The guideline addresses specifically new articles, but does not expand on existing articles. Maybe it would be better to address these as well;
3. As a conflicted editor in certain subjects myself, I would like more information on what is permissible. For example, I have requested a peer review on an article about which I have a COI, I am editing the article as per the reviewers comments in my sandbox, and have also asked the reviewers to implement the edits if they find my work to be useful and inline with WP content policies after I am done. Other alternatives for contributing rather than editing should be presented as well. Using an advocate, for example, or other surrogate means.

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Voluntary disclosure

Since my comments have effectively gotten lost in the process of moving, merging, and redirecting, I am reiterating them here.

I do not like the new guidelines in the third section because the hardline discourages voluntary disclosure of conflicts of interest, particularly in mild cases such as a non-PR employee editing a page about his industry or a politician editing a page about an issue she champions. Voluntary disclosure is often preferable to forcing people to contribute anonymously because it provides a better basis for open discussion and consensus building. I think many of the original comments on this leaned to this opinion as well. Voluntary disclosures should be made on the edit summary or on the article's talk page, and I would expect this to motivate other editors to review the edits pretty much automatically for NPOV. This is how all the codes of ethics that I am familiar with deal with CoI's.

At the same time, this guideline should also point out that bias can be introduced by things as subtle as adding more material on one subject than another, and that paid contributors can easily wear down our volunteers and subvert the system. Frequent introduction of bias like this is a flagrant violation of WP:NPOV and should be easily blockable, regardless of whether voluntary disclosure has been made or not. I do not see the talk-page pre-article as a complete solution to this problem, and I don't think it received much support by others either. It is too easy to find a drone who will do your editing for you.

I think this proposal was prematurely promoted to a guideline, and I hope that people will still consider large changes to it. I think it should be rewritten to encourage voluntary disclosure and strict adherence to WP:NPOV, WP:CORP, WP:AUTO, etc. as a first remedy, but warn that prolific users with a pattern of violations shall be blocked, regardless of disclosure. Original Post:--Yannick 05:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Re-post:--Yannick 04:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

1. Regarding your new addition, Charles, specifically "You don't by making a declaration change the guideline position on edits with conflict of interest: Misplaced Pages doesn't welcome detrimental edits just because they are transparently made." may be making the presumption that all contributions to articles in which one may have COI are detrimental by nature. But as a few editors have expressed it, including me, that may not always the case. Removing that sentence all-together, does not take away from the rest, in my opinion. I would also encourage you to read about "disclosures of interests" in other fora, as it may bring some clarity as well on how disclosures of COI are managed.
2. As for "Your edits are going to attract attention of a particular kind", it may be better worded as "Your edits will be held to higher standards than normal, and will attract close scrutiny. The burden will be on you to prove that your contributions are sound and compliant with policy."
3. The last sentence could be tightened and refer to the established policy of no-advocacy as in WP:NOT. Advocacy is not permitted in WP, regardless if you have a COI or if you don't.≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we can't be sure of all that, can we? We impose the same standards: the point is rather than the monitoring will likely be stricter, and that declaring an interest invites that. Charles Matthews 16:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course it should not be implied that all edits are detrimental: the position has not changed because the reasons for objecting to any edit are just the same as before. I'll need to come back to things said above here.Yannick presumably posted before the 'declaration of interest' section was posted? Voluntary disclosure is obviously pretty much a synonym, in this context, but if there is some nuance between these terms we have to get into all that. Using 'bias' in discussions on NPOV is not my preferred term, basically because no one thinks the NPOV version is unique, and so there will be versions with more of this or more of that: partisans tend to look for 'bias' in preponderance, but if it might have been written by a fair-minded person we are not primarily worried about that. Charles Matthews 15:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Returning to this after editing the page a little: some questions in my mind. Do we actually want to encourage disclosures and declarations? I don't know. It seems worth discussing. It is easier to write a guide that is neutral about that point, is very severe about editing with disregard for conflict of interest (where the issue is that if some people maybe do not care what is good for WP, we certainly do), and mostly points out possible consequences of actions and possible ways to get round the worst of those. Charles Matthews 16:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Disclosing of COIs should be encouraged, not discouraged: it enhances transparency and it is an accepted practice. Pertinent questions may be: Should the good standing of an editor be diminished by such disclosures? Should such editor be penalized for making such disclosures? Shouldn't an editor's good standing with the community be judged by his/her contributions and commitment to the project, regardless of any COIs disclosed, rather? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

As applied to ourselves

As examples, I believe that the Misplaced Pages articles Jimmy Wales and Daniel Brandt have content different than a neutral encyclopedia would. I have no idea how this guideline should address the issue of conflict of intrest as applied to the community and the foundation and influential members. Maybe stick a label at the top of such articles? Stubify seems more extreme than needed and assume conflict of intrest is something we can magically overcome seems wishful thinking. (Although I do think Misplaced Pages is ok, but then I'm prejudiced aren't I?) WAS 4.250 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you may be describing a fairly straight NPOV issue. And the cases are probably somewhat different. Jimbo might be accused of being conflicted in editing his own biography, but the idea that he'd really put his own interests above those of WP in so doing is implausible. The Brandt article might be bad because not enough people like him to care; but he won't be alone in that and sheer neglect is not a COI issue. Or at least 'COI by omission' would be a sort of minor example: not removing unfounded accusations of adultery against your personal foe. Wouldn't come up that often. Charles Matthews 18:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The interactions of Jimmy Wales and Daniel Brandt, separately and quite oppositely, with regard to the Misplaced Pages community editing the articles on them and with regard to the articles themselves are long lasting, involved, significant, intricate, complex, and has resulted in changes in those articles. The article on Jimmy has attacted those who idolize and those who hate him resulting in a constantly changing article that is poorly written and odd in its emphasis and use of sources compared to what an article by nonwikipedians using sources we distain as "self-reference" would be. The article on Dan is more detailed and less friendly and more poorly written than it would be if Dan didn't keep threatening everyone who edits that article with lawsuits and other real world negative consequences. WAS 4.250 19:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Community support

This merged version has been substantially expanded by Charles Mathews over the last few days, more or less on his own. I am placing a note at the Village pump to increase the exposure of this guideline and to seek wider support and input from others. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I've come from the pump. The most obvious element of this page's discussion, I would say is, the subject touches close to where some editors live, somehow. Myself, I don't actually understand how it could but judging from the emotionality of the statements the subject somehow does. Terryeo 15:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I begin to get a glimmer of one element of the difficulty here. The term "suspect" does not belong in Misplaced Pages Policy or guideline. The project presently is using "suspect" and other biased terms which do not provide clear direction but instead guide an editor toward searching through Misplaced Pages to find sneaky editors doing sneaky things and this is simply not acceptable Misplaced Pages activity. As "biased wording" is to be avoided within articles, so too it should not be present in projects, guidelines or policies where we seek to give an editor clear direction and not murky direction. As used in the project the term tells an editor he should not assume good faith but should seek those things which he can suspect ..... Terryeo 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The policy (this is not yet policy, indeed, and is a young document if with some older planks) has to speak to defending the viability and openness of the site, which today is at #12 in the world, when there are inevitably those who care more for their own good than for Misplaced Pages. I believe there is nothing here that is actually restrictive of good faith edits that help the mission; that is certainly the intention. I have written needed sections, but for the most part I have been re-factoring material with editorial issues in it, from previous incarnations.

I too have solicited participation, using email lists. User:SlimVirgin has been editing here also. Charles Matthews 16:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

On suspect: some edits are suspect. Inserting spam-like links is suspect, inserting links to an unremarkable personal web page is suspect. We do monitor the site for spam links, and maintain (I believe) a list of sites that have tried to spam us. And don't get confused: NPOV and wording criteria for the article space are not to be applied here. 'Murky' is used as in the same sense as 'grey area'. Assuming good faith is not the same as being a naif. Charles Matthews 16:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No, edits are never suspect. We are NOT going to have Misplaced Pages built on "suspect your fellow editor, scrutinize his edits toward suspecting him of a conflict of interest. No, no and no. If that is your state of mind, move off into police work. Misplaced Pages is built on the foundation of Good Faith and it grew on the foundation of Good Faith and it runs on the foundation of Good Faith and Civil conduct. Terryeo 17:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, Charles. I would expect then that this page is demoted to proposal, until such time in which there is wide consensus for it as a guideline, or policy. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall seeing any threads at Wiki-En, besides a message from you about your essay on the subject. Are any other mailing lists in which this guideline has been discussed? I would appreciate a link to archives so that I can read other editor's comments, if any. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I have used the closed Arbitrators list, and mentioned the most recent addition not long ago on wikien. I came here shortly after David Gerard solicited help with the re-editing after the name change, not previously having been involved in much policy discussion at all. So I mentioned my first round of edits on wikien. Oh, and I've mentioned how it's going to Jimbo, but apparently he's in Poland right now.

On language, I wanted to look first how spam in particular is treated. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam talks about 'suspicious' edits (As in Suspicious edits automatically deserve a {{subst:spam1}} tag on the user's talk page ...). The main page Misplaced Pages:Spam on the topic rather confusingly refers back here as one of the main pages dealing with the issue of external link spam. So some clarification of the way material is divided up will be needed. Misplaced Pages:Spam also has its own guideline for 'conflicted editors', one more thing that might need taking into account to pull guidelines in this area into shape.

I'll vote against downgrading this page from guideline status, of course. It is much more comprehensive and better written than what was here not long ago. There is some urgency in filling in areas that were not even mentioned in the old WP:ECOI, and obviously I'm not saying those new sections flagged up as such are in perfect shape. But the bulk is nothing new (well, footnotes, but those are deliberately not made central). Charles Matthews 16:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I added Premerge talk page of third section to top. It was a guideline before merger. WAS 4.250 16:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications. I was under the impression that the guideline was such when it referred to "Vanity" only, but since then it has expanded quite a bit, hence my point to considering demotion. Nevertheless, we can keep in current status, but I will be happier when more editors join in to discuss the current formulation. Mailing list discussions and private email exchanges are not a substitute to a vigourous public debate as it pertains to policy decisions. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Distribution of sections

To User:WAS 4.250: you have reverted the moving of the sections Declaring an interest and Defending interests back to the third section.

They belong in the third section precisely because they say you: the third section is talking to editors with a conflict of interest position to address. You say 'undermine', in your edit summary. If you look up the page to the comments of others under Voluntary disclosure, you will see different opinions. Please discuss here. What you have done cuts right across the article's basic organisation. Charles Matthews 16:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The structure does seem to be a little confused now. I'll try to sort it out. SlimVirgin 17:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Copy edit

I'm trying to tighten this a little, but without changing content or thrust. I've removed a few sentences but only because I couldn't see what they were getting at; e.g. "Such a declaration is a complicated thing. Perhaps: you show that you are someone who might have an apparent conflict of interest if your circumstances were fully known, by revealing some of those circumstances." Otherwise, I'm leaving the content intact, but hopefully a bit sharper. SlimVirgin 17:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the template below in the article to emphasize the point, or is it an example of a template used elsewhere? SlimVirgin 17:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not think it requires such prominence. The text can be included without the formatting. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess it came from here, I moved it to WP:ECOI because it was in the wrong place at that point, IIRC. It seems a good format device to attract attention to a key observation aimed at someone who really doesn't understand WP. If people say 'why wasn't I told?', we should be able to say, 'we tried'. That's wny the prominence. (The content is very apt: I know of a very good case.) Charles Matthews 18:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I edited it and removed the formatting, but I can put it back. SlimVirgin 18:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Community review section

I removed the section below because I'm not sure we want to encourage it and it seems contradictory. Do we really want people using their user subspace to create articles not fit for Misplaced Pages? That encourages a MySpace mentality. We say that advertising in user space is blockable, but then we say they should use user space to post material for the community to review. But how big is Misplaced Pages, and how large is the reviewing community? Material could be there for years without anyone seeing it, but it still gets cached by Google as though part of encyclopedia space. SlimVirgin 18:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to submit an entire article for community review, follow this process:

1. Create a user page for yourself that describes yourself and your professional background.
2. Edit that page and add a link to a subpage for every article you intend to create, using the syntax ] (note the leading slash).
3. Click the red link, and create the article on your user subpage. Make sure it conforms to Misplaced Pages guidelines (simplified version).
4. Add a link to this article, of the form ], to the list below.

Using user space or any other part of Misplaced Pages for advertising purposes may result in an indefinite block. Label user space articles with the below template so it is clear they are not Misplaced Pages articles. Also put {{proposed|type=article}} at the beginning of the article, and use <nowiki> around category markups so they are not included into by Misplaced Pages categories.

The community will review and comment on the talk page of that user sub-page. If content is to be placed in the main Misplaced Pages space, it is to be done by someone who is willing to stand behind that content as if he wrote it himself, deleting, rewriting or moving onto the talk page of the article anything he is not willing to stand behind 100%.

What is the alternative, SlimVirgin? We should not assume that all such contributions are spam or advertising. Some allowances should be made available for editors with COIs to contribute to Misplaced Pages. In soccer, a good defense player does not just block an opponent player, but gives some space for the attacker player to move into, with the intention of having him in the place the defender wants him to be. In the same manner, we ought to make allowances for those editors to contribute, even if just for the purpose of not allowing dishonest edits made via sockpuppets, anon IPs, etc. This goes in the sam grain as disclosure of COIs. COIs are only negative when not disclosed and when not properly managed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My tendency is to think all COIs are bad, whether declared or not. We recently had an editor called NetPR or similar remove all negative material about a company and replace the article with a PR thing from the company's website. The fact that he declared his conflict of interest by calling himself "NetPR" made no difference: the material was still unacceptable and he was still violating our policies by adding it and by removing the criticism. I feel the issue of declaring COI is a bit of a red herring and potentially misleading, as though it makes COI okay. The bottom line is that the NetPRs of this world must stay away from articles related to companies who are paying them.

If we encourage such people to add material to user subpages, then we are in effect allowing the material into Misplaced Pages. SlimVirgin 18:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That example is quite clear, SlimVirgin, and even without this guideline it was dealt with swiftly, by simply applyinng WP:NPOV. If that person had declared is COI, I am sure he would have been less inclined to do what he did... Nevertheless, I am still concerned about the "Close relationship" subsection, because I believe that many of us have close relationships to subjects we are passionate about and a "close relationship" can be easily argued as a COI against editors in discussions. Where is the line drawn? Is a staunch supporter of Israel, a conflicted editor on Allegations of Israeli apartheid? What about a person belonging to an antisemitic organization? Is he not also conflicted? Is a person that donates money to the Missionaries of Charity a conflicted editor in the Mother Theresa article? Maybe. But what about an editor that declares himself to be a staunch skeptic, atheist and supporter of the views Christopher Hitchens editing the same article?

What I am trying to say, that the moment we get into definitions of "close relationships", even after the recent additions of SlimVirgin about applying common sense when making these judgments, the current formulation is slanted towards those COIs in which there is obvious advocating for a position, , person, or subject, but little is said for these COIs in which there is obvious advocting against a position, person, or subject. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My dictionary (Concise Oxford) say advocacy is pleading for. Charles Matthews 18:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but our own Advocacy defines is it as "Advocacy is an umbrella term for organized activism related to a particular set of issues" and more. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Just about all kinds of wider-sense and organized activism on WP are banned. See also the Campaigning section, and the final footnote on advocacy. Charles Matthews 11:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I also think declaration of interest is a red herring. I think, however, there has to be wording here. My addition was intended as analytical: what is it, what are the likely effects. No way we can prevent disclosures of interest, is there? No way we can reduce the expectation that disclosures will be of positive effect on the 'ethical' position. So I wrote in contradiction of that: they do nothing to make edits better (or worse). They have a big social impact.

My own view is that the guideline should remain neutral on that: tell people it's their choice. (That was actually why I mailing Jimbo - this one point will have a big effect on future interactions with corporate hired guns. That area of concern, also, is why I introduced the bit on locus standi. Judging by recent hot-potato issues, something has to be said about companies, articles about their products, and what right they have to beef about them.) Charles Matthews 18:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I continue to disagree. I studied several COI policies of Universities and research institutes, and all of them encourage such disclosures, for obvious reasons of transparency and for the protection of the indiviual and the institution. Why our prohect should be any different? Clearly, these disclosures does not mean that policies can then be bypassed. Of course not. But it encourages transparency and that is something that we need more of, nor less. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, what difference does it make if a LaRouchie declares that he's a member of that organization? I can still see it from his edits, unless he edits in accordance with the policies, in which case I'll never know and don't need to know. What is the benefit exactly of his declaration? SlimVirgin 18:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No difference whatsoever, as most probably anyone following the edits of such person will easily deduce that from his edits and behavior. But if the person declares it, it is transparent and other editors will understand his motivations better and encourage him/her to either comply with policy or to avoid editing. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

We know about COI: it's putting the outside interest ahead of WP's interest. User:Jossi pressed for the merge. I was against, until the definition was in good shape. He continues to dispute things, all over the page. That is starting a large number of hares. I'm going to make this workable, since my approach is that we have definitions, and we do not have to add anything more except good descriptions of the unpacking. Charles Matthews 18:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I was not the only one suggesting the merge, Charles. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I already recused myself from editing the guideline. Should I also recuse myself in engaging in the debate, Charles? I was under the impression that my comments have helped clarify the issues and some of my concenrs addressed in the current wording. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My view: conflicted editors edit here on tolerance. Which can be worn thin. Now, I want a workable page on COI: it matters. I don't particularly want so many edit conflicts when trying to comment on a recent copy edit with cuts, especially if it is you re-iterating something about university policies which you've said before. Your comments will be read and treated on their merits. Charles Matthews 19:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. But note that with the current formulation, we all are conflicted editors on one subject or another. You included. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. But note that with the current formulation, we all have the potential to be have been conflicted editors on one subject or another. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No. You take that back immediately. Charles Matthews 19:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

And also, please consider the possibility that I also want a workable page on COI. I care deeply about this project as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed paragraph about criticism

I edited this paragraph but then couldn't see the point of it, or rather couldn't see how it's exactly connected to conflict of interest, so I'm moving it here. SlimVirgin 18:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There are grey areas, of course. In many articles, criticism is gathered in a separate section, although this is not regarded as good editorial practise. There you may find properly referenced reports of well-publicized debates next to vague assertions such as "Some people say X, while others think Y." Make sure that all criticism is well-sourced and consider integrating it into the text rather than having a separate section as a POV magnet.

It was in 'defending interests', as the kind of advice you need in dealing properly with the kind of things on pages that will catch the eye of any outsider landing here and getting annoyed. If this duplicates other advice, then let me know where. Charles Matthews 18:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll put it back. SlimVirgin 18:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such consensus about where to place criticism in articles. See Misplaced Pages:Criticism. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That was my copy edit. I'll fish out the original parapraph and put it back as it was. SlimVirgin 19:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Another paragraph removed

I removed the following too, because it seems to be encouraging people to add material from company websites. All we're saying is: don't add it yourself, because you're being paid; find someone to add it for free instead! SlimVirgin 18:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Rather than editing Misplaced Pages, consider writing an article on your own website, or creating a listing on another wiki such as Yellowikis. License your writing under the GNU Free Documentation License and ask a Wikipedian to consider copying some or all of it onto Misplaced Pages.

Triggering the guideline

moved here fo easy threading of this specific discussion

It seems to me that we're having problems editing this because (a) we haven't agreed on what constitutes a conflict of interest sufficient to trigger this guideline (this is Jossi's concern about the close relationships section); and (b) we haven't agreed on how to handle them even when they are clearly defined (as in commercial interests). Perhaps we have to agree on these two issues before proceeding, as hard as it will be to pin down clear definitions. SlimVirgin 18:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, SlimVirgin. That would be very helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I replied above? In 'conflict of interest' we are only really arguing about what constitutes an outside interest. Answer: anything, really. So that's OK. I've lost track: does it still say 'no list of criteria'? It should. People shouldn't expect an exhaustive list, and if the situation is not there, you're free and clear. We give examples. These should be helpful. They should be 'well-chosen and representative', as I have argued before (Talk of WP:ECOI, pre-merge, now archived at top here). We also indicate in what sense edits may display the prioritization of outside interests. Charles Matthews 19:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My concern is that we're defining it too loosely and that lots of people could get caught up in it. Commercial interests are clear: if you're being paid to represent an organization or interest, don't edit Misplaced Pages articles relatd to that organization or interest.

But what about when people are not being paid? The danger with the guideline is that anyone with a close relationship to a subject is being advised not to edit in that area, which implies that subject experts will be excluded. User:William M. Connolley, for example, is an expert on global warming, and is involved professionally. Should he stay away from global warming articles? SlimVirgin 19:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. I see what has been my difficulty so far: The opening text on what constitutes a COI, reads: "Anyone who prioritizes outside interests over the interests of the encyclopedia is subject to a conflict of interest." That is very clear (and should be bolded in the text, IMO.) Now, if the "close relationships" section (that by the way is the only one I am in disagreement with), had some wording that states that unless your edits are in the interest of WP, and are made in full compliance with its policies, then your close relationship will be assessed as a COI. But if your editing pattern, behavior, and commitment to the project as perceived by these activities is sound and in compliance with WP content policies, then your contributions will be appreciated regardless of your COI (disclosed or not.)≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The difficulty is that lots of editors of Misplaced Pages prioritize outside interests. How many editors are there who, even if they have strong POVs and edit within those areas, edit within the policies; act as regular Wikipedians; have well-rounded editing interests? In other words, how many Wikipedians do we have, as opposed to people who edit Misplaced Pages?

The animal rights articles, for example, which I edit quite a bit: we have editors there who admit to being involved in animal rights activism and who edit in no other area; and we have editors who admit to being vivisectionists and who edit in no other area. Should they be prevented from editing?

I think we need to lock down our definitions a bit more, not in the spirit of wikilawyering, but just to be clear in our own minds what we're talking about. SlimVirgin 20:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That is my concern, SM: almost all editors of Misplaced Pages prioritize outside interests, and I would say that the incredible growth of the project may be directly linked to that fact: people edit subjecs they care about. But this new guideline, when expanding beyond clear-cut COIs, may be cutting the branch WP is stitting on, if not carefully crafted. Unless there is a perception that we have grown enough and now is time to lock-down a bit, as I have seen it expressed in some fora. Look forward to your views and others on how this can be avoided. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the main thing is that people should edit within the policies, and that we can't really expect more than that. A LaRouchie editing within the policies will never be spotted as a LaRouchie (although I think by definition that would be impossible, because they are 100 percent caught up in what they do), and if they're editing within the policies, it doesn't really matter who they are; it's actually none of our business who they are. The problem with this guideline, and the idea of declaring interests, is that it goes against our philosophy that it doesn't matter who you are in real life; you're welcome here IF you respect our policies.

We have one editor I mentioned obliquely before. He works in the library of a mainstream religious denomination. Part of his job description is "the development of online resources" about that denomination. So he adds material about the denomination to Misplaced Pages. In that sense, he is being paid to edit. (He has posted this publicly, by the way, so I'm not telling tales out of school.) Should he be prevented from editing? Yes, but only because his editing is highly POV and he is very argumentative, and that has led to lots of unnecessary disruption of the articles. If he were able to edit in an NPOV way, there would be no problem. So the problem is that he violates our policies; not that editing here is part of his job. The latter inclines him toward the former, but does not determine it. SlimVirgin 21:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

We are in agreement on this. Should then the "close relationships" subsection have some wording to that expectation? As it is worded now, if you have a close relationship to a subject as currently defined, you are strongly discouraged from editing related articles (as in don't do it.) The "trigger" of a conflict of interest could be worded differently (second sentence after the Engles example):

Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest, if it impedes you from edting related articles in full compliance with Misplaced Pages content policies

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not "if it impedes you"; the idea of a COI is independent of whether you are impeded by it. It's if you're impeded by it that we care. So it would have to be tweaked. SlimVirgin 21:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

if you're impeded by it that we care, that is what I meant. Look forward for a tweak that can address this. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe: Any situation where a strong relationship impedes you from editing related articles in full compliance with Misplaced Pages content policies, triggers a conflict of interest. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @

I've posted a suggestion for the closeness section. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin 21:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Looking good, SM. I would just say (my emphasis) " If neutral editors on a talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest" ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I said "in good faith" because the problem with insisting on neutrality is that in some areas all the editors on the page might be regarded as non-neutral, but even if non-neutral might still be acting in good faith i.e. are not troublemakers, not trying to use excuses to get editors off the page etc. SlimVirgin 22:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I've tweaked it. It now says:

Friedrich Engels would have had difficulty editing Karl Marx, because he was a close friend, follower and collaborator. Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization.

There is no tidy definition of what is meant by "too close" in this context, and editors should use their common sense in deciding whether this guideline applies. An article about a little-known band should preferably not be written by a band member or the manager. On the other hand, an expert on climate change is welcome to contribute to articles on that subject, even if he is deeply committed to it. As a rule of thumb, the more involved you are in a particular area in real life, the more careful you should be to adhere to our core content policies — Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:No original research, and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability — when editing in that area. Closeness to a subject does not mean you're incapable of being neutral, but it may incline you in that direction. Be guided by the advice of other editors. If editors on a talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest, take seriously what they say and consider withdrawing from editing the article.

SlimVirgin 22:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I see your point about neutral and good faith. This looks much better now. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it all right with everyone else? I'm trying to tread a fine line; not sure I got it right.

Do we want the guideline to have teeth? That is, if someone is regarded by good-faith editors as having a conflict of interest and they continue to edit in violation of the policies, do we leave the situation for admins/ArbCom to deal with as they see fit, or do we want to prescribe/suggest a solution here? SlimVirgin 22:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

This is quite an active page, the most recent 50 edits happened in the last 24 hour period. Your question, I believe, asks for additional editor input. My suggestion would be, let it sit for a day or two, let it gather a few more editor's inputs before defining teeth. As I understand it, the sphere of interest has been addressed. But the quantity of editors who have contributed is small. I would say, let it mature for a day or two before exposing teeth. Terryeo 22:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Wording changes

I have quite a number of comments just at the level of wording changes. These are mostly about 'teeth'. Possibly incomplete list:

1. Self-promotion section: the renaming - does this imply that product placement is covered?
2. Close relationships section: must define, not advise. Advice should be in the appropriate place, later. Don’t soften older versions of this at all.
3. "Who's Who" directories section: tightening has gone too far, since the definition of COI has gone, leaving only a comment about notability.
4. Importance of civility section : renaming removed one of the actual points. Civility is a universal requirement, but defamatory comments can be couched in apparently civil terms ('sorry but your contributions to biology are negligible').
5. Consequences of ignoring this guideline section – softened too much. The concept of 'false position' has been cut, the point that edits are logged has been removed.
6. Personal benefits – I don't see the renaming here as good. 'Impersonal benefits' – what are those? The whole point is that people’s commitments make all sorts of things beneficial in their outlook. Would benefiting your nephew be personal or not? Nepotism is a by-word for good reason. Charles Matthews 10:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

(took the liberty to numerate your points for easy referencing)

(1) I would say so. If there have been many cases of COIs related to product promotion (I have not witness much of that), the wording could be expanded;

(2) That has not been "softened", but clarified. It addresses specific concerns discussed yesterday. Note that other subsections on the definition section includes some how-to wording (e.g. Autobiography). A possibility would be to move the second paragraph to its own sub-section on the third section of the guideline;

I agree with the other points, only that I would remove the special formatting of the "unintended consequences". Don't think it is needed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it really so hard?

Analogy 1. A government statistician has to produce employment figures by best practice. The government will benefit if the figures are better. Conflict of interest can arise if there is political pressure for a change of methodology, not justified by the statistical theory, or if the political allegiances of the statistician have the same tendency to suggest slanting it. The government should only see benefit if the un-spun figures are better.

Analogy 2. I thought last night about Japanese homes. It is a traditional comparison here, to say that we as Wikipedians leave all our outside interests 'at the door'. Expand on that: entering a Japanese home, you leave your shoes in a special area just inside the door. Three points:

• Bare feet are not required;
• No amount of wiping your shoes on the doormat will be enough;
• There is more to it, since you may have to take off shoes in a kimono shop or restaurant, and there is a cultural tradition behind it.

In just the same way:

• We don't ask for an impossible stripping away of personal views, expertise, areas of interest;
• We do ask for more than a cosmetic appearance of neutral language, and require the real deal, which is that people give up efforts to benefit outside interests other than by the addition of good-quality reference material to WP.
• We do have a wiki culture, and it is not defined by a short list of rules, and it is not to be assumed that guidelines exhaust it.

The common idea seems clear enough: stop trying to benefit yourself except by benefit to WP. If you can't manage that, you have a serious conflict of interest to address. We judge people on intention; as it says early on, the probable intention is the common indicator.

Charles Matthews 11:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Most that is covered in WP:NPOV#Bias, so it woulld be better to link to that than to reformulate here. Having said that I like the analogy of the removal of shoes at the door as it is very illustrative. It can maybe expand it to include that in Japan, after you remove your shoes, you change into slippers. In our case: the slippers of our content policies with which you are supposed to walk while in Misplaced Pages land. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 13:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV#Bias does mention commercial bias, in the briefest possible way. Otherwise things about gender bias, geographical bias and so on are not really what we are mainly talking about. Charles Matthews 13:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the spirit of what you said. That is already covered in NPOV when discussing bias (We don't ask for an impossible stripping away of personal views, expertise, areas of interest... but we expect you to conform to NPOV when you edit.) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

If that's all you think we are asking ... well, in my analogy, try wearing the slippers from the benjo round the ryokan. You'll find out the difference. Charles Matthews 15:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly my point. (For those who do not know the difference, ryokan is a traditional Japanese living quarter with tatami and washi sliding doors, and benjo is the traditional Japanese toilet: a hole in the ground, that even some modern houses still feature) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Points not to lose in the shuffle

I think we need to be very clear in a lot of different places that PR firms editing Misplaced Pages is something that we frown upon very very strongly. The appearance of impropriety is so great that we should make it very very strongly clear to these firms that we do not approve of what they would like to do. It is all well and good to say, well, it is ok so long as they remain neutral, but if they really want to write neutral articles, they can do so, on their own websites, and release the work under the FDL, and notify Wikipedians who are totally independent. Additionally, it is always appropriate to interact on the talk pages of articles. If a PR firm is not happy about how something is presented about their client, they can identify themselves openly on the talk page, and present well-reasoned arguments and additional information and links. Of course it is always going to be the case that unethical practitioners may get involved in inappropriate behavior, but I think this is no argument for simply accepting it. Rather, it is a strong argument for asking people to do this the right way: transparently and allowing independent editors to make the actual editing decisions. WAS 4.250 19:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice thoughts, WAS 4.250. However, that is precisely what happened in the instance of the article about Arch Coal, and Jimmy Wales went way out of his way to nuke the article. Only after concerted effort by the community was the article restored. I'm still not clear if the future way is to "create offsite and someone else scrape", or to just be very, very transparent about who we are, and let the community decide if the content is worthy of Misplaced Pages or not. -- ~ ~ ~ ~

We need only say it once. But I am clear that outwardly following some sort of NPOV is not enough.

One point that is already made that always 'editing to the central reservation', but only from one side of the argument, is not enough.

I would say more than that: always accepting all concessions in argument as only your due, but acting as a rebuttal bot when it comes to the other side of the argument, is also not good enough. I suggest that that is exactly what flacks are trained to do, if perfectly politely. That is a behavioural problem, and behavioural problems are actionable.

Charles Matthews 19:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"Actionable"? As in subject to a lawsuit? Or (I hope) in some other sense? - Jmabel | Talk 06:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Admin action in general, ArbCom will take notice in particular. There is a line drawn between acceptable editing that is somewhat partisan, and POV pushing, for example. Charles Matthews 11:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Anti-vanity

Does anti-vanity also deserve a mention here (or perhaps in WP:N)? It seems that some pages of non-notables are added mainly to express negative information about them. This edit to a disambiguation page is one example, and perhaps another can be found in Robert Morey, which is basically all criticism and not much positive content. --Flex (talk|contribs) 02:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

See WP:BLP. WAS 4.250 18:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

What about non-living persons, organizations, etc.? --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• The same principle applies, but there is lesser urgency. (Radiant) 15:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Unwritten rules?

Hi.

I noticed this: "But even if we could verify Tom Cruise's favorite breakfast cereal, that is something that is typically not included in an encyclopedia.". But, why can't it be included? There seem to be some rules that still haven't been formalized yet, or perhaps I am missing something. 170.215.83.83 22:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• WP:TRIVIA. (Radiant) 10:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And WP:STALK

If this has already been covered, please direct me to the relevant conversation, but: doesn't this policy conflict a bit with user's right to privacy? In other words, it is it possible to suggest to someone that they are violating this policy without yourself violating the policy, in particluar "Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself." IronDuke 20:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's quite possible to point out that someone is posting personal information without repeating that personal information. (Radiant) 09:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, wasn't clear. It's like this: let's say I edit the Bill Gates article and change the lead to read "Bill Gates is the smartest human who has ever lived." After looking at some of my other edits to Microsoft, etc., you get suspcious. So you come to my talk page and you say, "IronDuke, you aren't by any chance Bill Gates, are you?" Well, if it turns out I am, aren't you violating my privacy? And yet, am I not violating COI by editing the Bill Gates in a hagiographic manner? IronDuke 14:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• If someone asks whether you're Bill Gates, they're not violating your privacy (they are likely incivil and incorrect, though). If he posts Bill Gates's home address and telephone number, that would be violating privacy. (Radiant) 15:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

But it says "legal name" above. Thus, if you post that I am Bill Gates, you are violating that part of WP:STALK, no? IronDuke 15:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• If asked out of the blue, yes. If this could reasonably be implied from your on-wiki activities, then no. For instance, if John Doe is the founder of DoeCorp, and the article on DoeCorp is suffering WP:OWN issues from User:JDSomeone, it is not unreasonable to conclude that JDSomeone might be John Doe. In effect, the user has exposed himself. (Radiant) 15:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, he's exposed himself to being exposed, yes? If you, intrepid editor, are the only person who puts it together, it can stay secret of you keep it secret. But this gets back to my question... when may one essentially violate WP:STALK. I'm going to paste this conversation over there and see what people think. IronDuke 15:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Well, we do not attempt, nor do we need, to define stalking in a legislatively foolproof way. One may not violate WP:STALK, but pointing out that e.g. User:Jimbo Wales is in fact named Jimbo Wales is not a form of stalking. (Radiant) 15:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about "foolproof." What I'm saying is, we might be able to use something like "Revealing the identity of a Misplaced Pages editor may be acceptable if you have strong grounds for believing they are in violation of WP:COI." Fair? Too broad? IronDuke 15:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Too broad, I'd say. What matters is if the user posted his own personal information on-wiki, or if he's made it clear enough anyway without explicitly stating so (as in the John Doe example above). (Radiant) 15:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Point well taken and fair enough. Anyone else have an opinion on this? IronDuke 15:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Some kinds of biased editing can lead to the natural conclusion that someone may have a conflict of interest and thus should not be editing certain articles in the first place. The real issue is the bias. Getting involved in outing an editor's real life identity is a waste of time as it is totally unnecessary for the purpose of requiring users who act like they have a COI to stay away from the articles in question. We can act according to known identities if they are provided and believed or act according to behavior and block/ban based on the appearance of COI. Editors are not allowed to wiki-lawyer their way to the disruption or biasing of Misplaced Pages. Using the rules to make Misplaced Pages worse is specifically outlawed (see WP:IAR and "Gaming the System"). WAS 4.250 20:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If you don't want to have someone identify you, don't go praising yourself pseudonymously. - Jmabel | Talk 03:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Vanity versus COI

Following the merger with the Vanity page, this page now seems primarily geared to dealing with personal self-promotion. It offers very little advice for dealing with corporate mercenaries that threaten to exhaust our volunteer force of spam fighters, which were the reason for starting the original two "conflict of interest" proposals. Check out the contributions from these jokers as a minor example of things to come if we do not clean up this guideline:

• Ampcometal
• Stewartusa

Their user names served as voluntary disclosure, so they were easily countered, but they will be more clever next time. I think we should resplit these two topics to remove confusion. We need an anti-self-promotion guideline to deal with looneys, and a conflict of interest guideline to deal with marketing deparments.--Yannick 17:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What changes would you recommend to this policy to adequately deal with marketing departments? WAS 4.250 00:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Definition of COI should be expanded to include promotion of companies you work for and their products, and criticism of competitors. Right now, the first section only defines COI as promotion of "an article's author, family members, or associates".
2. Read our own article on conflicts of interest. Outside of the internet world, "conflicts of interest" are about conflicting financial interests. This guideline is mostly intended for people who write about themselves and their friends. This "vanity" is primarily an internet phenomenon, and it rarely qualifies as a conflict of interest in the real world.
3. Emphasis on voluntary disclosure. In the existing guideline, corporations are finally mentioned in the third section, only to say they are "strongly discouraged" from editing articles where they would have a COI. (As if they would be interested in editing anything else!) Marketers will not find that statement in the middle of this rambling stream-of-consciousness jumble, they will not be "discouraged" by that statement, and we do not have the ability to enforce it. Whereas we should present voluntary disclosure as an ethical imperative for an encyclopedia author, the current guideline presents it as merely optional with dubious benefits.
4. Something permitting an abridged enforcement process against COI editors, declared or not, who violate WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOTE, etc. This is necessary to level the field between the volunteers and paid mercenaries, whereas it is undue antagonism in cases of simple vanity or personal self-promotion.
5. Restructure to bring key points up front and moving irrelevant details to the end or to other guidelines. For example, the "Who's Who" directories section belongs in WP:NOTE, not in a COI guideline. It may be highly relevant to a vanity or anti-self-promotion guideline.
6. A declared financial COI, while permissible, should neutralize the assumption of good faith, and a discovery of an undeclared financial COI should cause us to assume bad faith. The guideline currently makes two conflicting recommendations about this. It makes sense to preserve AGF for personal self-promotion but throw it away for marketers, because, again, this is a volunteers versus paid mercenaries issue.
7. the Defending interests section should be rewritten to cover defamation of businesses and trademarks and defense against same. While it makes sense that unsupported defamation of living people should be removed at once, I don't think the same standard should apply to businesses and products. Otherwise we would need a full academic citation on every sentence such as "cars produce carbon dioxide" or "smoking cigarettes is unhealthy". I have seen professional spin doctors abuse Misplaced Pages's policies to expunge all negative comments about their product, and we have no means for a volunteer force to fight them. Heck, some of these guys have tried to brush off fatalities as WP:TRIVIA!
8. Rewrite pretty much everything. Except for parts of the third section, this guideline is all designed for dealing with personal self-promotion, not what the business world calls a conflict of interest.

--Yannick 04:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

In other words reverse the political correctness move, put this page back at WP:VAIN, and write a new guideline in its place? --tjstrf talk 05:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. There were two COI proposals here already before WP:VAIN moved in and crushed them. And the original reason for the merge was bogus: people were inappropriatly applying the vanity guideline to corporations because we didn't have a real COI guideline yet. Now we're even further away from that goal.--Yannick 12:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Not quite. The reason for the merge was that the OTRS used to get frequent complaints about the word "vanity", which the subjects of articles may find offensive. That said, I have no objection to rewording this page to improve it. (Radiant) 16:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I misrepresented your views. You specifically mentioned deletion of NN businesses in your reasons at the top.--Yannick 00:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not write a specific guideline to address the concerns raised by Yannick? Would it not be better to have a snipper rifle than a 12-gauge shotgun in these circumstances? Something such as Misplaced Pages:Promotion of companies and products. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be another way to split these guidelines under different names. But then people unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages history will think that COI means the same thing here as it does in the real world. The term is already a well-known legal phrase, and it's been somewhat redefined here. This redefinition is what has turned it into a shotgun.--Yannick 00:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, it's kind of annoying if we use real-world terms in a definition different from that used elsewhere. If we can avoid that, we should. (Radiant) 09:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yannick, You write "Outside of the internet world, 'conflicts of interest' are about conflicting financial interests." Simply not true. Misplaced Pages's usage is normal use in talking about journalistic conflict of interest, which is by no means limited to financial conflicts of interest. It is exactly why, for example, publications like The Nation require full disclosure from their contributors: for example, whether they ever studied under or worked with a person they are writing about, whether that person ever published an article about them, etc.

Good point. I concede that I oversimplified the issue. My point was that the original vanity guideline was designed to deal with things like teenagers writing about their band, and that we are now facing a much more serious threat. The compassion afforded to teenagers should not be extended to corporations, nor should the recognition afforded to corporations be extended to teenagers.--Yannick 04:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that requiring disclosure is very important. I agree that discovery of an undeclared financial COI should cause us to assume bad faith.

I will be more than happy if someone wants to "plagiarize" my essay on ethical public relations and Misplaced Pages for some of how we should deal with this! - Jmabel | Talk 03:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who may be contributing solely in COI

Is there a protocol for reporting users whose contributions are exclusively (or almost exclusively) to articles involving themselves? Regardless of notability, I mean. I've encountered more than one user recently who not only created/edited articles about themselves, organizations they're involved in etc. but seemed to have contributed nothing to Misplaced Pages beyond this edit, and I was wondering where this could be reported for investigation, as it doesn't seem to be outright vandalism. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 16:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLP has an associated noticeboard and group of volunteers that field issues related to it. A similar thing could be created for COI if there are enough volunteers to make it work. Any volunteers? WAS 4.250 00:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea, but I'm not sure I'm qualified. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 14:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Identity

I think an important item about COIs is not mentioned. I suggest adding something like

"If a group, an idea, a world view, a religion etc. forms a significant part of your identity then you are likely to have a conflict of interest when editing articles about these subjects. "

I wonder who should edit the article human.

I am a bit worried where this guideline is heading to because it seems that eventually this guideline will say that you can only edit articles that you are not interested in and have no personal knowledge of.

Andries 07:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC) amended for grammar 14:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• What you point out is covered under WP:NPOV. Arguably, people of a certain group or religion are the most knowledgeable about it and should apply this to article writing. (Radiant) 13:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this guideline DOES overlap with WP:NPOV but is much more strict. Whereas WP:NPOV only controls the article content, this guideline, as it currently stands, goes much further by vaguely forbiding some people from contributing. User:Andries is correct; this guideline advises us to "avoid editing" the article human and hope the bots pick up the slack. This is why this guideline should simply promote VOLUNTARY DISCLOSURE of COI's, and expedited enforcement of NPOV, etc., for real problems.--Yannick 00:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you feel you have a COI WRT editing Human then don't edit it. But don't expect us to to fall for strawman arguments. You might as well try to tell a judge it wasn't really fraud because white lies are ok and who is to say where the line is anyway. WAS 4.250 06:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should explain exactly what this straw man is??? I'd like to hear an explanation, as I've come to a similar conclusion, it might forbid some from editing no matter how hard they strive to try and keep a neutral view! 70.101.145.209 08:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No one should edit Misplaced Pages in a way that is not NPOV. It is a strawman to suggest that can not be done because it can not be done perfectly. WAS 4.250 08:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not quibbling about how close we can come to NPOV. I'm happy with the NPOV policy. But this guideline says "avoid editing articles related to your organization or its competitors," which is too broad and applies even if you follow NPOV. For a more serious example, I do read this as saying that Canadians shouldn't edit the article on Canada or Afghanistan, since we're at war. Even if this rule were restrained to corporations, I think that employees should be allowed to write about their companies, as long as they disclose their relationship and stick to NPOV. That disclosure should lead to greater scrutiny from other community members, and an abridged enforcement process should be available if this conflicted editor violates NPOV. A strawman argument would be one where the policy is misrepresented; I don't believe this is the case. --Yannick 02:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

(<--) You say "I do read this as saying that Canadians shouldn't edit the article on Canada or Afghanistan, since we're at war." Then you should not edit such articles. WAS 4.250 06:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't make this personal. I assume you meant to confirm that people should avoid editing articles about their own country or an enemy country in times of war. I think this rule is too harsh. Enforcement of NPOV should be sufficient in this example, and it has demonstrated reasonable success in Misplaced Pages's war coverage. Even if our definition of COI is kept so broad and vague, (articles relating to your organization or its competitors,) it should be sufficient for editors to disclose their citizenship to trigger strict NPOV scrutiny on their war edits.--Yannick 06:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You assume wrong. I agree with you that some people need not refrain from editing under circumstances as you have indicated; yet I assure you that others should refrain. Someone who thinks they should not edit due to possible COI indeed should not (and this is what I was refering to). Others who think they should edit political or religious articles because it is a matter of life and death and it is their moral obligation to influence the situation probably should not edit articles related to their moral imperative. WAS 4.250 06:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Edits with COI issues are deprecated; edits with POV issues are (if anything more strongly) deprecated. The reasons for the deprecation differ, though. NPOV is basically there as Point 1 in the Misplaced Pages charter. Where editors have a serious conflict of interest, it frequently shows up when there are sharp editing debates. It is really not good for anyone, and is also not good for WP, to have participants in edit wars tarred with COI. If you are being paid by results, and if 'losing' an edit war affects you financially, that is a bad position to be in. People may think they can cope, but most editors without sufficient WP experience basically don't know enough to say 'I can handle it'. Same if you are a patriot of the kind who cannot compromise on the 'correctness' of all your country's actions. You really need a whole lot of Misplaced Pages knowledge, and a whole lot of self-knowledge, and probably insights into the style of disputation that goes on here and how to get edit wars settled, to manage. It's at best a tall order. If we say 'there are some issues for which nobody benefits if you edit', that's unremarkable; we say that about topics about which you know too much/are too close, as well as know too little. Charles Matthews 22:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Having a conflict doesn't ban you from editing the article, it just means that needs to be taken into consideration. Humans should be mindful of their perspective when editing human, as much as any other group. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Off the hook?

Hi.

If you do make neutral edits related to whatever you are associated with, is it still a conflict of interest or are you off the hook? I would say off the hook, since you're following official policy. If not, then this is not fair, since if one is honestly capable of remaining neutral in spite of their association, by all means they should be given that chance and weclomed to provide such contributions without having to post every darned contrib on a talk page. So, this needs to be clarified, otherwise someone might abuse it and proceed to crow "Conflict of Interest!!!!!" when they see someone closely associated with the subject of an article editing without even bothering to check for NPOV violation. And if no NPOV vio. exists, there's nothing to punish them for. A good contributor might get reprimanded or even blocked for something that caused no harm. The persons actions, ie. the edits, must do the speaking, not any circumstantialities (is that a real word?). 70.101.145.209 08:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is NPOV, but typically the person involved can not tell which of their edits reflect bias and which do not so they are not capable of making that judgement no matter how much they want to. We all have biases. Knowing when to back off is more than not just pushing a known bias; it is also recognizing that we all have self interests that make us have biases that don't seem like biases to us. WAS 4.250 08:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

However, what if one tries to avoid these biases as much as possible, if they've managed to figure out where they come from, and what they are. Like you said, everyone has some sort of bias, so the thing is to avoid it as much as possible. If one truly does manage to get that neutrality, even if they have such an affiliation that may lead to a conflict of interest, could they still be charged for violating WP:COI?! 74.38.33.15 07:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If a person has never been suspected of COI with regard to an issue then he is in the clear until such a suspicion is indicated; but as wikipedia deals with user accounts and not persons, pattern of editing is everything so the question to the rest of us with regard to any specific account or anon edit is does it fit a pattern that indicates COI; such as a pattern by a prior account with a COI (and pattern matching to other accounts can include anything indicating it is the same person or a meat puppet of theirs). Be bold if no one has indicated an issue with you; but this can't be used to create one account after another with each one claiming "Oh, but no one has suspected me yet so I can be bold." WAS 4.250 19:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"Unintended consequences" section

Hi.

I saw something disturbing here: "If you write in Misplaced Pages about yourself, your group, or your company, once the article is created, you have no right to delete it or to control its content. " So what?! If I make a total vanity article about myself that obviously cannot satisfy WP policy, I have "no right" to delete it?! If I go out of my way and delete it could I be banned?!?!?!?! This is WRONG! 70.101.145.209 08:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

This refers to the fact that all submissions are under GFDL and the contributor does not have the legal right to withdraw his submission. It has nothing to do with being banned. WAS 4.250 08:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Ah, I see that sentence is ambiguous. What it means is that we are not obliged to delete things just because you want us to. Of course deletion of such an article can be proposed via the regular channels by anyone, including you, as long as that person has a plausible reason (such as "cannot satisfy WP policy"). (Radiant) 10:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Exceptions

There have to be some exceptions to this: e.g. should I not revert vandalism if I see someone replace the page of another competing charity with "blah blah blah" etc. Of course I should. I guess it is a guideline like all guidelines and I have to be prepared to take the consequences (particularly the balance of proof being against me in any dispute) if anyone else ever complains or objects (which they haven't). --BozMo talk 09:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed, as you say, a guideline is not law, and you can do as you think best and accept the consequences (we even have a policy stating so, WP:IAR). Reverting vandalism is useful even on an article from a competing business (indeed, reverting vandalism is exempt even from the WP:3RR). Nobody's likely to object if you fix typoes either. You should probably avoid changing the tone or content of such articles, though, and Misplaced Pages has plenty of places to request outside opinion if you need it, e.g. WP:3O. (Radiant) 10:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved here from BLP talk

(below moved from subsection called "BLP policies regarding edits by paid assistants of the subject of an article" WAS 4.250 22:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC))

I have a question regarding a procedural issue that is not spelled out in WP:BLP -- what to do with edits by people who are paid assistants of the subject of a WP:BLP. Martin Kramer, who has posted and identified himself on talk, has acknowledged having his assistants add material to various Misplaced Pages articles. I made the suggestion that if the subject of a biography has paid assistants working on articles at his direction, that those assistants should be up front about their affiliation and their instructions. I did not suggest that their edits were ipso facto invalid, but I am aware that this has been a problem in the past when U.S. Congressional staffers edited Misplaced Pages -- I am not aware of any reason that academic staffers present less of a conflict of interest issue. I suggested something I thought was quite reasonable and acceptable to anyone, which was that anyone editing under such direction should identify themselves as doing so. Apparently that suggestion was not acceptable to some (well, one). Can someone from here give us some direction here? Is it out of line to suggest that if someone is editing Misplaced Pages because they were paid to do so, that they acknowledge that fact? csloat 00:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

We've had people paid to edit corporate articles before -- Arch Coal was originally based on text paid for by the company. COI needs identification so we can watch for bias, and likely biases should be identified, so I'd support encouraging them to identify themselves, and treating them as if they were the subject for the sake of COI. Edits by the subject or paid representative are not inherently invalid, but we need to check them for compliance with our policies, especially WP:NPOV. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 00:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but Arch Coal wasn't paid for by anybody, according to the original author's statements. If you want a better example of people blatantly being paid to edit Misplaced Pages, then Misplaced Pages:Reward_board is probably more fertile ground. As long as the Reward Board remains intact, all of this bickering over paid conflicts of interest is either hypocritical or moot -- take your pick. --JossBuckle Swami 16:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added Misplaced Pages:Reward_board to the see also so people can go there to see the issue isn't money but offers that affect NPOV. Perhaps a comment to that affect should also be added. WAS 4.250 21:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

But that is true of any edit, regardless of who makes it or of he's paid to do it - all edits must conform to WP:NPOV, and bias should be taken out of articles regardless of how it got there. I don't see how being paid to edit is different than editing out of ideological motivation, or even plain domain expertise. The criteria should be adherence to WP policies. The motivations of editors should be kept out of it. Isarig 03:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It is different because one is motivated differently when one is motivated by money or by fear of losing a job as opposed to being motivated by one's actual beliefs, values, or feelings about an issue. WP:COI may be helpful to your understanding of this. csloat 04:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I am asking you how they are differently motivated, and you are responding by asserting that the motivation is different. And the motivations are entirely irrelevant. What matters is adherence to WP policies. You have not yet addressed any of my questions. Isarig 04:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, I think WP:COI will clear up your confusion on this matter. csloat 05:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you have an answer, or don't you? Stop condescending, and address my questions. If you are unable to come up with an answer, say so. I have read WP:COI, and it is quite clear that "Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization." Isarig 05:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have answered. You are the one condescending. To explain again, there is a big difference between someone editing because they believe in a particular viewpoint vs. someone editing because their boss told them to (or because they are being paid to). What you quote indicates that COI is "created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization." Working for someone who tells you to edit Misplaced Pages in a certain way creates just such a conflict.csloat 05:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you have no answered, and telling someone that they are "confused" and telling them to read something to fix their "confusion" is textbook condescension. It seem you are simply incapable of writing anything without it, or perhaps you don't know what the term means. Once again: you are not 'explaining' anything, you are merley repeatedly asserting that there is a big difference, but not explaining what the difference is, let alone showing that it is a "big" one. Working for someone who tells you to edit Misplaced Pages in a certain way could create a conflict of interest. And being an unpaid activist for a political or ideological cause could create exactly the same COI, and this is spelled out clearly in WP:COI: "If you edit articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in that area, you may have a conflict of interest." I am beginning to suspect that it is you who needs to read that guideline. Again: what is the difference? (note: responding with "there's a big difference" , which is what you have done so far, is not an answer to that question). Isarig 05:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Isarig please. I have asked you to stop being abusive. Please stop. You were the one expressing confusion; that is why I asked you to read the article that clears up a point that seems obvious to me (as well as to at least one admin who has commented on the issue). I have explained it, but you keep asserting my explanation is not an explanation -- I really don't know what to say. If you don't know the difference between doing something because you believe in it and doing something because your boss told you to do it, I am not sure I can help you -- please ask someone else to help you. I am tired of your abuse. csloat 06:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I am neither being abusive, nor am I confused. I am asking you a question, which you are repeatedly refusing to answer. The question is, once again: it terms of conflict of interest and its impact on editing WP in a neutral way, what is the differnce bewteen a conflict of interest created by a paid contributor, to a conflict of interst created by unpai, ideologically motivated editing on behalf of a ceratin cause. A resposne that syas "one is paid. the other is not" is not ananswer to that question. I take it you have no answer, that's fine. We can leave it at that. Isarig

You have been being extremely abusive as I noted on your talk page. As for your question, I have answered it at least 6 times now. Here is what I just wrote on the talk page: "You're asking for a distinction I have already made -- the distinction between someone who genuinely believes what they write and someone who disingenuously writes as if they believe because they have been instructed to do so. I really have no interest in continuing to counter what appears to be sheer sophistry on this matter. I have made my position clear, and everyone else who has entered the discussion appears to agree, and Misplaced Pages policy appears to be consistent with my position -- again, you are advocating a bizarre form of paid meatpuppetry, something users are generally banned for." Do you understand yet? If not, please ask someone else to help you out. I'm sure they will. csloat 20:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

And the final score is... Isarig - 1, csloat - 0.

I'd be interested to see how csloat would answer the following challenge: "Explain how a Granny Smith apple is less tasty than a Golden Delicious apple." I predict that the answer would be, "Come on, you KNOW that a Granny Smith is WAY different than a Golden Delicious -- stop HARASSING me!" --JossBuckle Swami 16:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you be willing to explain this on the talk page in question? I have tried to make this point and have been accused of "threatening" and of "personal attacks" as a result (you can read through the discussion in the last section of that page if you have the stomach for it). Obviously, I have had negative interactions with that user in the past; I just don't think he's willing to listen to anything I have to say about the issue, so it would be helpful if an admin confirmed the view that paid editors ought to identify themselves. csloat 03:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

explain what? as he wrote - "Edits by the subject or paid representative are not inherently invalid, but we need to check them for compliance with our policies, especially WP:NPOV. " If th edits are POV, the can (and should) be eliminated, regardless of who the editor is or what his motivation is. If the edit conforms to NPOV - then as Night Gyr wrote, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Please stop your witch hunt. Isarig 03:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

What witch hunt? I am not asking that any edit be changed. All I am asking is that editors acting as the equivalent of paid meatpuppets identify themselves - a point Night Gyr agreed with in the part you didn't quote: "COI needs identification so we can watch for bias, and likely biases should be identified, so I'd support encouraging them to identify themselves, and treating them as if they were the subject for the sake of COI." csloat 04:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The witch hunt that prompted you to appear on a page where no contentious or problematic edits have been made for over 7 months, to revisit a long-dead issue of edits made there in April by editors working for Kramer, who was new to WP, apologized if he violated any principles , and said he'd instruct his editors to self identify if they edit agian. Night Gyr agreed that he'd like identification so we can watch for bias, but failed to explain how the bias of paid contributors is any different from the bias of any other editor that we need to watch for. Isarig 04:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no witch hunt. I responded "7 months" late because that is when I read that material on the talk page. All I said was that people who are paid to edit wikipedia by the subject of a BLP ought to identify themselves. Kramer said he would instruct editors to get Misplaced Pages accounts; not that they would identify themselves as paid assistants - I believe my question was fair. It certainly was not a "witch hunt," nor was it a valid basis for the tirade of abuse from you that followed. The distinction between someone who is paid to be biased (or who is ordered to edit by an employer) vs. someone who has political leanings is an obvious one, with a long tradition in laws and philosophies covering conflict of interest, bribery, etc. -- but if you are unfamiliar with those issues, you can read up about them on WP:COI. By the way, you might consider how you would respond if Juan Cole posted a note to Talk:Juan Cole claiming that he had paid assistants adding material to Misplaced Pages, and I posted a note indicating that I thought such assistants ought to identify themselves. csloat 05:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

what is it that you hope to accomplish by revisiting a long dead issue? Other than stirring up controversy, that is. I again urge to stop condescending, and answer question f you are able to. I have read WP:COI, and it clearly states that COI is not limited to financial relationships, but occurs in any close relationship, including ideological ones. I have addressed your false equivalence of bribed politicians on the Talk page - and I ask you again to address my questions. You are not in a classroom here directing your students to do research for you - you need to answer for yourself. Isarig 05:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem, BTW, with Cole paying his assistants to edit (for all I know, he's doing so, without bothering to even acknowledge the practice as Kramer has done), or with him editing WP himself. And if you demanded that his assistants identify themselves, I'd accuse you of the same things I'm accusing you of now. Isarig 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not "long dead" if anyone is editing under the direction of a subject of an article. All I did was suggest it was a good idea if such editors identify themselves. I am not condescending. I have answered your questions. I have responded to your comments about bribery on that page; they were evasive of the actual issue. Please do not use my occupation as a professor to insult me -- I have not asked any students to do research. There is no need to personalize this; it was a simple suggestion, and your remarks have become abusive. And, just to be clear, I have no problem with Kramer or Cole editing themselves either, or asking assistants to edit, as long as they are identified as such -- otherwise, it is simple meatpuppetry. That's all this discussion is about, and I'd like to ask you again to not be abusive. csloat 05:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

When there have been no POV or controversial edits on the page for 7 months, I think we can safely say the issue is dead, at least as far as Martin Kramer is concerned. If you are referring to a hypothetical case, and to a general request that editors with potential COI identify themselves - it brings us right back to the question you've been avoiding: why should paid editors identify themselves, but not ideologically motivated ones? You have not answered this question, neither here nor on the Kramer Talk page, you have just asserted that the cases are different. Isarig 06:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not "dead" to you, clearly, since you have expended a lot of energy and pixels on it. I am making a simple request - that editors who are editing as paid assistants of BLP subjects identify themselves as such. I have explained why, and WP policies on meatpuppets are pretty clear to me. As for ideologically motivated editors, you are the only one bringing that up. I have not said they shouldn't identify themselves, nor do I see how it is relevant. They usually do. The difference between that and someone paid to write is something I have explained at least 5 times by now. But that's not the issue. The only issue is the one I asked about at the top of this section, whether a paid assistant of a BLP subject should identify themselves when making edits that they were asked by their boss to make. One admin has agreed that it is a good idea, and has indicated that such edits should be treated as if they came from the subject him or herself. I agree with that very sensible statement. csloat 06:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No, that issue (paid contributors editing teh Kramer page) is dead to me, and everyone else on WP but you. What is not dead to me is a new issue, which is your demand that paid contribuotrs identify themseleves, while ideologically motivated contributiors who could be just as biased do not. You have not explaine dthe differnce ven once, let alobne 5 times, you merely keep asserting that there is a iffernce, and when pressed for an explantion you reply that the differnce is that one is paid, the other is not - which is non-responsive. Isarig 18:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I just explained it above for the 7th time now; my response is not "non-responsive"; the problem appears to be a refusal on your part to understand it. I have not "demanded" anything; I have made a suggestion that everyone else who has entered the dispute seems to think is quite reasonable, and which you have been alone in resisting extremely vehemently for some reason. My suggestion is also completely in keeping with Misplaced Pages policy as outlined in WP:COI as well as Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry. You are advocating paid meatpuppetry and you're acting like I'm the one being unreasonable. It's just bizarre. csloat 20:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you have re-asserted your non-response for a 7th time, not explained it. Contrary to what you wrote, most editors who entered the dispute did not think it was a good idea to have paid editors identify themseleves - the other editors suggested that they not edit articles directly, but contribute to the Talk page, whioch is what WP:COI recommends - for any kind of COI, not just paid editing. You ahve yet to explain why COI as a result of payment for editing is any different from COI resulting from ideology. This has been noted not jut sby myself. Additionaly, I am not advocating anything - I am asking you to explain your position that paid editors self-identify, while unpaid biased editors remain anonymous. You are being unreasonable in your repeated refusal to explain yourself. Isarig 22:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have bent over backwards to try to explain myself and you simply ignore my explanations. I will not interact with you anymore as you have conceded my arguments here and simply repeated that they are "nonresponsive." I also feel you have been extremely abusive in this conversation over what should have been a relatively noncontroversial suggestion. csloat 00:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

(mercy de-intentation) Actually this whole exchange is bizarre. I'd also like to see why you feel paid conflicts of interest differ significantly from ideological ones (Abortion), political ones (George W. Bush), or interest ones (Gundam Wing). The fact that this entire dialog between the two of you has gone on three screens with no forward movement is what I find bizarre. -- nae'blis 21:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The issues are the same as those raised by Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry. One writer believes what they say, the other is editing under instructions. This is covered under basic Misplaced Pages policies. I have explained this more extensively above; allow me to quote myself again: "the distinction between someone who genuinely believes what they write and someone who disingenuously writes as if they believe because they have been instructed to do so." What is it you don't understand?-csloat 21:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Naeblis, and to use your own examples -- are you saying you would see no problem with George W. Bush establishing a Ministry of Wiki-truth and hiring assistants to edit the George W. Bush page without letting anyone know that they were paid by the Bush Administration to do so? This is exactly what happened with the Congressional staffers fiasco, and it was considered an abuse of Misplaced Pages. I am not saying a paid assistant is intrinsically more biased than anyone else; what I am saying is that there is something intrinsically more deceptive about such an assistant editing without letting anyone know that they are doing so under instructions from an employer. If you think meatpuppets violate the spirit of Misplaced Pages, it seems bizarre to me that you would support paid meatpuppets. csloat 21:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm opposed to editing without disclosing a conflict of interest in general, whether you are being paid to do so, love the topic, or believe strongly in The Truth of what you write. Hence, my userpage discloses some of my major interests/biases so that people will know where I'm coming from. I'm not saying I support paid editing; I'm saying I don't see a big difference between paid and ideological/political shilling. -- nae'blis 22:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The issues are the same as those regarding meatpuppetry; I am only suggesting that paid meatpuppets identify themselves as such. I don't see why that suggestion is so controversial. I agree with you that all conflicts of interest ought to be disclosed. I really don't think that is at issue at all. csloat 00:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of going on for another screen, allow me to introduce a third point here -- that is that Misplaced Pages discussions should result in articles that are improved in terms of the truth. Disputes will occur, and the assumption is that all disputants are arguing in good faith, motivated by their belief in what is true. If some disputants are instead motivated by their employer's demands, this cripples that assumption of good faith, and in fact the end result is that whoever has the most money to spend on this endeavor will win disputes -- I can simply pay a staff of assistants to revert three times apiece every twenty-four hours, ensuring that my version of a disputed page stays current. Disputes should be guided by concern for truth, not by who has the most money. csloat 21:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I firmly believe that the statement "someone who disingenuously writes as if they believe because they have been instructed to do so" is the disagreement we have here. Like the man said in A Few Good Men, "it doesn't matter what we know, it only matters what we can prove!". My personal beliefs on an issue are irrelevant if I cannot back them up with reliable sources. And if I can back them up and add them as a neutrally worded edit, what's the dispute, exactly? -- nae'blis 22:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Our COI policy helps us with minimizing bias. Who is to say if a given edit is neutral or not. Concensus makes that decision. Consensus among who exactly? Twelve paid editors? We need this policy to minimize bias. WAS 4.250 22:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

How about consensus among 12 unpaid but organized activists? How is that different? Isarig 17:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is bad too. Care to help draft a guideline proposal to help minimize bias from organized activists? WAS 4.250 21:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible. Unless we have a policy that requires every editor to disclose potential COI, we should just let things continue as they are - and count on the community to ferret out POV edits, regardless of origin. Isarig 21:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's possible and quite simple. A WP rule requiring people who are making edits as paid representatives of another party to disclose that connection would do the trick fine. Count on the community to ferret out rule violations just as we ferret out POV edits regardless of origin. csloat 22:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

(<---) I believe he was refering to "bias from organized activists" and not "paid representatives of another party". We are better able to deal with the one bias source than the other. WAS 4.250 22:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Yes, that is a similar problem too - and I don't think money is the key issue (though it is a factor); the issue is really (to me) the extension of meatpuppetry. How about "representatives of another party"? The thing is, you shouldn't have to disclose every organization you belong to, but you should have to disclose if you belong to an organization that has specifically instructed you to edit Misplaced Pages as part of your duties to that organization. I realize there will be grey areas, but something like that would help deal with obvious abuses (like when a subject of a BLP orders his assistants to edit his biography, or the biographies of people he knows). csloat 22:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think WP is equipped to deal with either bias source. My example was of course extreme, in order to clearly establish the obvious parallel between paid editing and organized unpaid editing (which has eluded csloat for a few days now). But it is of course not required that an organization instruct or encourage its members to edit WP to advance its cause. As far as the existence of COI, and the likelihood of editing in a POV manner, it does not matter at all if an employer instructs an employee to edit, if an organization instructs its (unpaid) members to edit WP to forward its cause, or if the members decide, on their own initiative, to edit WP to forward the organization's cause. In all of these cases, the same COI exists, with the same predictable results. The monetary compensation or the existence of a direct instruction to edit not enter into it at all. Short of requiring all editors to disclose any and all potential COI, and putting in place effective mechanisms to police it (which is , quite obviously , impossible) - WP has no solution for this, other than to politely ask that editors edit in a neutral way, and relying on the community to remove POV edits. Isarig 22:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll thank you to stop condescending and hurling insults at me. You are correct that my solution will not solve all POV issues but I never said it would. All it would do is deal with obvious deception and abuse of the wikipedia process. Isarig is just wrong that "it doesn't matter" if an employer explicitly instructs his/her employees to edit wikipedia or if they do so on their own. Again, this distinction is obvious and it is the root of Misplaced Pages's rules against sock- and meat-puppetry. Yes there may be COIs if someone edits of their own initiative but that is not the issue. The issue is when someone deceptively edits as if it were their own initiative but they are actually acting as a representative of someone else. This is particularly troubling when they are acting as an agent of the subject of a biography. I really don't understand why my position on this is controversial at all. csloat 22:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me repeat the examples I gave you on the Talk:Martin Kramer page, which illustrate why the distinction between editing under instructions vs. editing of your own initiative is meaningless from the POV of COI: Consider the following 2 cases: An employer does NOT instruct his employee to edit articles about the the employer (personally) or the employer's business - but the employee does so anyway, under his own initiative (either becuase he thinks this will benefit him in some way, or because he really believes the employer is helping make the world a better place) - surely a COI exist here, even without the employer's instruction. It is so obvious that the COI exists, that it is one of the first things mentioned on WP:COI: "avoid editing articles related to your organization or its competitors". Now, consider a scenario where a member of Mothers Against Drunk Driving goes to his MADD chapter meeting, hears explicit instructions from his chapter leader NOT to edit WP in a POV view, but since he recently lost a child in a DUI-related accident, he does edit WP related to drinking, from a predictable POV. Clearly, a COI exists, despite the fact that he was instructed by MADD leaders not to edit that way, and despite the fact that he is unpaid, and truly believes in his position. The end result is the same: WP is edited in a non-neutral way. The only way to avoid this is to require all editors to disclose any and all actual and potential COIs, and to create an effective monitoring and policing mechanism for this policy. This is of course impossible, so we have to rely on the community to ferret out POV edits, without bowing to demands from the likes of you that specific subsets of editors disclose potential COI, while others are under no obligation to do so. Isarig 23:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say there wouldn't be bizarre special cases (I acknowledged there would be "grey areas"); I only proposed a simple rule of thumb to avoid the obvious abuses. There will always be POV issues on Misplaced Pages, as you well know; I don't think we need to add to them by licensing meatpuppetry. csloat 23:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is anything bizarre about these cases. In fact, I believe a not insignificant amount (if not the majority) of WP edits are being made by just such interested/partisan editors. As another editor pointed out, you are unlikely to contribute to Pet Skunks unless you have a pet skunk, sell pet skunks, or have been the victim of a pet skunk "accident" - all of which lead to COI. I am not asking to license puppetry, I am pointing out that your request, if it were to be applied in a non-discriminatory way, is impossible to fulfill. Isarig

Fine, there may be non-bizarre cases in the grey area, but there are nonetheless black-and-white areas that can be simply and easily accounted for with a simple rule of thumb. The request that people who are explicitly instructed by their employer or organization to edit wikipedia be asked to identify themselves and/or treated as meatpuppets has nothing to do with skunks. It's a simple rule of thumb and, all sophistry aside, you haven't shown what is wrong with it. I've got better things to do that continue belaboring this point. csloat 00:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with it is that it is discriminatory. It requires something of one class of people (editors under instruction) which it does not require of other classes (equally biased, equally conflicted). There's no reason to require a paid editor to disclose he's editing on behalf of a payer, if we do not require a partisan for a certain cause to do the same. Isarig 00:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

When someone has his wife murdered by a third party, we discriminate as well -- we treat the person who ordered the murder as a party to the act. Because they are. When someone has a third party edit wikipedia, we treat the person who ordered the edit as a party to the edit (see meatpuppetry). Hope you see it now; if not, someone else can help you out. Bye. csloat 00:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

You are really over the top. No one here agrees with you, that's enough for me. Isarig 01:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Be assured that straight attack pieces are not permitted as Misplaced Pages articles. The point is that starting a one-sided article is a poor kind of gambit.