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EPA scientists revolt

It's a press release, but a pretty shocking one: More Than 10,000 EPA Scientists File Mass Petition for Action on Global Warming, November 29, 2006 Simesa 01:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

And a pretty inaccurate one. The actual document is a letter from 22 union bosses representing a union with over 10,000 scientists and support staff. The so-called "petition" makes no actual mention of a petition anywhere. Entry 306(b)(i) in my Guidebook to the Real World is "Never trust a press release." Raymond Arritt 04:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The press release reads as follows : "In an unprecedented action, representatives for more than 10,000 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency scientists are calling on Congress to take immediate action against global warming . The is letter (sic!) signed by presidents of 22 locals of five unions". I can't find a misleading statement in there which would differ from your explanation. Hardern 17:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What about the headline? Narssarssuaq 17:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right about that. Hardern 17:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The headlines for Global Warming hysteria articles are often like that. It would be same as saying if a US President opposed radical action on Global Warming saying "300,000,000 American opposed to action on Global Warming" because the leader says so.

Neturality Of the Article

The neutrality of this article is disputable.

Allow me to put away any preconceived ideas I hold in regards to Global Warming.

From reading the article, and having explored various points of view in regards to global warming (specifically, the two sides of the debate) I think that there is substance to both points of view.

Therefore due acknowledgment of the arguments against Global Warming could be included with either a criticism section or perhaps an NPOV label.

Note:

"Often, authors can view "their" articles as being NPOV, while others disagree. That an article is in an NPOV dispute does not necessarily mean it is biased, only that someone feels that it is. Note, however, that there is a strong inductive argument that, if a page is in an NPOV dispute, it very probably is not neutral — or, at least, that the topic is a controversial one, and one should be wary of a possible slant or bias. The salient point is that one side — who cares enough to be making the point — thinks that the article says something that other people would want to disagree with."

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute#How_can_neutrality_be_achieved.3F

Although the arguments against global warming have been previously presented I believe that there are grounds for a more substantial presentation of the case. Alternate theories that identify different, supporting causes of the same issue, do not replicate outright dispute of the entire issue as a whole.

Below is an interesting article to assist with the creation of a criticism section: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/12/nclim12.xml

Also: http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/articles/lav2006forWeb.pdf

The above links may help, although further research into the 'against' arguments is recommended.

Thank you,

Ben.yrps 22:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC) Ben.yrps

The issue, to my understanding, is that there really aren't that many coherent alternative explanations for collected observations. What there are in the way of complete theories are presented in the "Alternative Theories" section. The rest of the criticism is mostly picking at particular points, studies, or issues, and all the various nitpicking cannot actually be collected into a coherent theory, indeed much of it is mutually contradictory. So, in summary, where actual alternative theories exist they are presented, and the remaining criticism is simply to scattered and mutually inconsistent to be presented in any reasonable way in an article such as this. Leland McInnes 23:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Controversy Section

My addition of a Controversy section linking to data from the article "Global warming controversy" has been reverted within the first five minutes of being posted. This leads me to believe that this article is being watched "like a hawk" to say, by some people. Mainly, I would like to point out that this article shows a very one sided and supportive view of the global warming theory and that a section showing criticism from the crtitics (yes there are critics) namely those displayed on the "Global warming controversy" is desperately needed to maintain a balanced article. While there is link to the article "Global warming controversy" in the see also section, it is buried amongst twenty or so other links. To maintain balance there needs to be a promintent section of this article showing the other view. Can we have this section or will my edits be thwarted with reverts? The machine512 05:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The section you have added seems to have been just cut and pasted from the Global warming controversy article. Other than being a listing of names, it is very critical of those who claim to be skeptical of global warming, and doesn't seem to add anything to the article. Netherless I'll leave it there for others to comment on. --Michael Johnson 05:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. It is upsetting that the Global warming controversy page is more critial of the critics than critical of global warming. The text that I've added is just about the least "critic critical" section I could find from the article. I agree that this would be a section that would need work, but nevertheless I do feel it is an important addition to the article and that what I have given would be a good starting point. The machine512 06:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The global warming page describes global warming to he best of out understanding, i.e. it reflects the broad scientific consensus. Global warming controversy is there expecially to highlight the (mostly political) controversy. Of course critics get more space there - both for their positions as for a discussion of the same. --Stephan Schulz 08:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverted again, sigh. I don't understand your reason for reverting, you stated:

"Reverted again. There is a link to the controversy from the lead section. Duplication of content is no good, use summary style!"

It seems like you are using two very different reasons for the reversion. By lead section I am assuming you mean the subtopics box at the very bottom of the page as otherwise controversy or criticism is not mentioned anywhere else throughout this entire article. And if you are referring to the subtopics box, many of the main articles such as Mitigation of global warming are summarized in this main article just as I did with Global warming controversy. And in terms of duplication, I did the same system of summary as is done with mitigation. So what is the problem?? Is there something wrong with presenting both viewpoints in the article? Please explain further.

It amazes me, the wikipedia article on the United States doesn't get this much scrutiny. The machine512 10:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not referring to the subtopic box, but to the last paragraph of the introduction, which states (in part): "However, the uncertainty is more significant regarding how much climate change should be expected in the future, and there is a hotly contested political and public debate (This links to global warming controversy) over implementation of policies that deal with predicted consequences, what, if anything, should be done to reduce or reverse future warming, and how to deal with the predicted consequences." And, wether you belive it or not, all notable viewpoints are represented adequately in the article. What you added was not a summary, but an excerpt. The summary of the dispute, as far as there is anything to summarize, is in the section I quoted and in the "Alternative hypotheses" section. --Stephan Schulz 11:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sure this doesn't surprise you, but I greatly disagree with your claim that "all notable viewpoints are represented adequately", and apparently I am not the only one, seeing that others have brought this issue up before and have been knocked down by the unfortunate clique of editors here. And as proof for my claim not one of the scientists from the section "Opponents of the global warming theory" under Global warming controversy is mentioned at all in this article. That is balanced? This is what I tried to bring into the article, a summary of the to say "least critical of the critics" section of Global warming controversy article (considering that whole article is pretty much biased against them), and you've reverted it, as I am sure you've reverted this topic in the past and will continue to. Why can't the opinions of the critics be expressed in this article?? The machine512 11:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the ony scientist we name explicitely (i.e. outside of referencing a publication) is Svante Arrhenius. The alternative theories section is excellently referenced. If you have reliable sources on the science (i.e. peer-reviwed scientific publications), by all means add them. But editorials in the Wall Street Journal or publications by political think tanks do not confer any scientific legitimacy - see WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. The scientific consensus is supported by thousands of scientists and by the vast majority of people in the field of climate science. The critics' position isn't one at all, but a collection of shifting and incoherent talking points. Most have now given up on "there is no warming" (for any number of alleged reasons), and there is an increasing move from "it's not anthropogenic" (but caused by any of several unlikely mechanisms) to "it's not bad for us" (for another rambling collection of suggestions). --Stephan Schulz 11:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, so can I show the names of the notable scientists and their "incoherent talking points"? We are mirroring summaries of just about every subtopic article except the Global warming controversy Why? I don't know (bias, agenda, who knows), but to bring balance we need it. Why are you ingoring such a large article with a significant number of scientists and views?

Also "alternative theories" won't suffice (and you've stated why) because many of the critics do not have alternative theories to present! But rather they take stances such as, that the data is too inconclusive to project the many ideas and theories that the others present, that the testing methods are wrong, etc.

So I ask you, can I please bring some balance into the article or are you going to revert me again? The machine512 13:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Cut-n-paste volumes of text from the Controversy article is obviously not a good idea. Furthermore, you seem to equate "controversy" with "anti-GW"; you only pasted in "aginst". Thats not so - controversy is both sides. I rather like your Also "alternative theories" won't suffice (and you've stated why) because many of the critics do not have alternative theories to present! - this is all too true: what they have are a collection of shifting and incoherent talking points. Which is why they aren't in this article William M. Connolley 13:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact sir, I pasted text (which is exactly what was done in the mitigation section, so excuse me if this is illegal, apparently not in that case (by the way you may want to update the main article from which it comes, it is out of date) (any edits I make will likey be reverted) ) which contained a list of critics and a very large section criticizing the critics, so to be fair that was left in. Also I wouldn't call the criticism "a collection of shifting and incoherent talking points", there are some valid points from reputible scientists which should be displayed.

You sir are presenting a lame excuse for not displaying the other side because it objects with your view.

It is really sad for the whole ideology and foundation of wikipedia, when there is an abuse of power and abuse of the system as is going on here. If anything conflicts with your views it is reverted. This issue has been brought up many times within this article and surrounding articles (neutrality and presenting fair viewpoints) and ingored and reverted.

Maybe this is why the trolling tag exists on this discussion page? Because of all the pissed off editors?? The machine512 14:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I always like helping the minority view so here goes: it is true that there IS a link in the lead section to the contraversy (aka "Canute's") page but the anchor text confuses the link. Given the WP habit of barely relevant links to dates etc putting the Global Warming Contraversy link until anchor text saying "a political and public debate" makes it look a little like the link might be to an article about public debates. In that regard it might be improved slightly for clarity if the link was in parathesis with explanation after the words, even though its messy. (But I am not inclined to support bringing any content over). --BozMo talk 14:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

I've added the neutrality tag to this article. This article does not express the views of critics of global warming. Any attempt to add such critics views have been reverted many times by a certain group of editors watching this page. All edits on this page and other global warming subtopic pages that to not conform to the bias of these editors are reverted. This is an abuse of the wikipedia system.The machine512 05:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

What views do you believe should be added? Please be specific. Dragons flight 06:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Having read the article, I think it is quite appropriately balenced, given my (non-professional but academic) understanding of the science. I'm not sure I would dedicate as much space to Ruddiman's view (although I have only a passing familiarity with it). Generally balenced. I don't think a neutrality tag is a good idea. --TeaDrinker 06:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As I've stated above in the "controversy section" of this talk page, I've tried bringing the views and names of the numerous critical scientists into the article from the Global warming controversy page and my edits (and others) have been blindly reverted for many irrational reasons. There is a large article Global warming controversy that should be discussed at least in small part with a subsection in this article. Not all views are being expressed here, but rather the minority critical view is being seemingly hidden amongst other pages. Others have made this remark numerous times on this talk page and all have been ignored by the group of editors watching this page. Please see what I've witten above. I am losing faith in the fairness of wikipedia, when seemingly biased editors and admins will revert edits made because they do not approve of the crtitical viewpoint. I don't know what can be done. The machine512 07:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you not agree that there is a lot of controversy around this subject? If not, why is there a large controversy article roughly the same size as this one? And why is that article not being reflected here? The machine512 07:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This is what I brought into the article:

Is there something wrong with this?

Controversy

The global warming controversy is an ongoing dispute about the effects of humans on global climate and about what policies should be implemented to avoid possible undesirable effects of climate change.

Opponents of the global warming theory

A small number of climate scientists and scientists in related fields have expressed opposition to the scientific consensus on global warming. Several of the most prominent are the following:

• Patrick Michaels from the Department of Environmental Sciences at the University of Virginia
• Robert Balling of Arizona State University
• Sherwood B. Idso of the U.S. Water Conservation Laboratory
• S. Fred Singer, atmospheric physicist and professor emeritus of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia.
• Richard Lindzen of Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
• Frederick Seitz (anti-global warming treaties, accepts the temperature rise as real, but not yet properly explained)
• William M. Gray, emeritus professor at Colorado State University and one of the world's leading experts on tropical storms. Gray claims that there is no link between increasing ocean temperatures and more intense hurricanes in recent decades. He also rejects the usefulness of computer models as tools for weather and climate research.
• Roy Spencer, known for his satellite-based temperature monitoring work
• Henrik Svensmark of the Danish National Space Center.

Some prominent opponents from outside the climate science community have been:

• Kary Mullis, biochemist and inventor of PCR
• Andrey Illarionov, former economic advisor to Russian president Vladimir Putin
• Ross McKitrick economics professor
• Michael Crichton, science fiction author and critic of the politicization of science, Global Warming is an issue in his 2004 novel, State of Fear
• David Bellamy, British environmental campaigner who has since decided to draw back from the debate on global warming.
• Ann Coulter, American syndicated columnist.
• Steven Milloy, FOX News columnist and Publisher of JunkScience.com.

Some organisations were formed to further the opponents' views:

• Information Council on the Environment (defunct): Michaels, Balling and Idso all lent their names in 1991 to the scientific advisory panel of the Information Council on the Environment (ICE), an energy industry public relations group.
• Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change
• Science and Environmental Policy Project, founded by S. Fred Singer.

Many of these opponents to anthropogenic global warming theory have links to the fossil fuels industry. For example, Patrick J. Michaels and Frederick Seitz have both been linked to the George C. Marshall Institute--Michaels as a "visiting scientist" and Seitz as "Chairman Emeritus.". The Institute has received numerous large grants from ExxonMobil and from petroleum-related organizations such as the Sarah Scaife Foundation and the Carthage Foundation. Similarly, the Competitive Enterprise Institute has received several large grants from the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, the Sarah Scaife Foundation, and from ExxonMobil.The CEI website lists both S. Fred Singer and Robert Balling as "experts," while Ross McKitrick headed up a CEI project called the Cooler Heads Coalition. Many observers critical of these connections between global warming contrarians and the petroleum and coal industries as suggestive of a conflict of interest, if not of outright corruption, since many policies which might be used to combat human-caused global warming might adversely affect the profits of these corporations.

Scientists critical of some aspects of the discussion and their donors dispute the validity of this guilt by association argument, and the scientists are also themselves part of government, state college and university systems, the scientific organizations listed in the proponents section, or some mix. Most have been considered skeptics or at least somewhat skeptical of certain points since long before the funding was provided. For example, according to the Forbes story listed above, The Intermountain Rural Electric Association of Sedalia, CO (IREA) funded Patrick Michaels because according to their GM "'We cannot allow the discussion to be monopolized by the alarmists,'" and said although he "...believes global warming is real just not as big a problem as scientists claim, <he> acknowledged this is a special interest issue. He said the bigger concern is his 130,000 customers, who want to keep rates low, so coal-dependent utilities need to prevent any taxes or programs that penalize fossil fuel use." In that same article, Donald Kennedy of Science said " 'skeptics such as Michaels are lobbyists more than researchers' " and that " 'I don't think it's unethical any more than most lobbying is unethical,' " and that " ...donations to skeptics amounts to 'trying to get a political message across.' " This tends to further refine the entire dispute as being one of a political nature.

Other criticisms of funding are made by groups known to be in direct opposition to either corporations in general or energy ones in particular, such as the Mother Jones criticism of ExxonMobil donating to groups such as the American Council for Capital Formation . They complain that the ACCF presented an appendix that focused only on the uncertainties of a 2001 NAS report when the ACCF testified in front of the U.S. Senate. Mother Jones’ complaint seems to be only that although the ACCF usually focuses on economic critiques of policies, this time they wrote something one-sided about the science involved in the debate to support their economic position on the Kyoto Protocol. Doing that, according to Mother Jones, puts them in the skeptic camp.

Some opponents to the anthropogenic view of global warming have also been criticized for using incorrect information or flawed analyses in support of their opposition. For example, in April 2005 David Bellamy published a letter in the journal New Scientist in which he claimed that, of the 625 glaciers being observed by the World Glacier Monitoring Service, 555 of them were growing, not shrinking—a statement which, if true, would cast a good deal of doubt on the existence of global warming. It turned out, however, that Bellamy's figures were incorrect: the vast majority of the world's glaciers have been retreating for the last several decades. George Monbiot of the Guardian tracked down Bellamy's original source for this information and found that it was Fred Singer's website. Singer claimed to have obtained these figures from a 1989 article in the journal Science, but to date this article has not been found. Similarly, before starting JunkScience.com, Steven Milloy belonged to an organization called The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition (TASSC), which was paid by tobacco companies to cast doubt on studies about the dangers of secondhand smoke. However, most of the authors of these editorials, their websites, or the publications themselves are almost universally extremely critical of the role of industry and government in environmental matters and focus almost entirely on negative aspects of the debate .

The machine512 07:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's repetitive (we already have an article covering the controversy), it's unbalanced (there could easily be a much larger list of supporters, especially as anybody disagreeing with any part of the consensus is listed as a sceptic, and hence anybody agreeing with any part should be listed as a supporter ;-), it does not contribute to the science this article concentrates on (there are no references to peer-reviewed papers in the section), it is fairly poorly sourced in general, it is too long (this article already is 2.5 times the recommended length), it gives undue weight to the small group of critics and it gives undue weight to the debate itself in that it suggests that a serious scientific debate about the core consensus exists when it does not... --Stephan Schulz 08:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree with you: the tag is unwarranted and the article is pretty balanced. --BozMo talk 10:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, in response to your many statements.

1. "It's repetitive": Having a summary of the controversy article in this article is not any more repetitive than (again) having a summary of the mitigation article. Having summaries is something done widely throughout wikipedia.

2. "It does not contribute to the science this article concentrates on" It does not need to. Neither does the section "Global warming in popular culture" in this article. And neither does "Censorship" section in the article on the Internet contribute to the technology of the Internet.

3. "Undue Weight" You raise a good point here. And I would like to quote that article if I may.

"None of this is to say that tiny-minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can give them on pages specifically devoted to them. Misplaced Pages is not paper. But even on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it should not be represented as the truth.

From Jimbo Wales, paraphrased from this post from September 2003 on the mailing list:

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

In other words, views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all."

The second bullet point "if a view is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents" would label the critics in the Global warming controversy as being a significant minority just because they are easily named scientists (quite a few which are known reputable activists, over a dozen) and organizations.

Being that the large article Global warming controversy exists:

1. proves there is a serious scientific debate over many aspects

2. proves it is also not "undue weight"

All of which should be summarized in this article, and currently is not. The machine512 10:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is broken down into sections, and is fully referenced. Why not search dissenting views and reference them, rather than just cut and paste a list of names. If there is any serous scientific dissent it should be included in the article. I havn't come across it (dissent I come across usually comes from conservitive polititions and media commentators) so I'd welcome the infomation. How about tracking down those peer-reviewed articles? Fact is global warming scares me stupid. I'd love to be reassured. --Michael Johnson 11:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Michael summarises it pretty well. Adding a huge section of text does nothing to improve the article in terms of readability or accuracy. Listing the opponents creates undue weight - the only way to balance the list of opponents would be to list supporters. The thousands of scientists who support the majority position on GW. That would, of course, make the article into unreadable garbage. Including the opponents without including the supporters creates the undue weight. Presenting a fringe position lacking supporting publications on equal footing (or anything near equal footing) with the scientific position creates undue weight. Simple enough. Guettarda 18:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary Edit Break

512, your proposed section is not a summary, it's an excerpt. The mitigation part is both a summary and a (near) except. Having a summary is fine, however, I claim that we already summarize the controversy adequately.

For the rest: Your logic is unsound. "If a view is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents" does not imply that the ability to name prominet adherents implies the existance of a significant view. More general, just because A implies B, you cannot soundly deduce A from B. Moreover, the people in your list do not hold a particular view. They hold different views that only have one aspect in common.

And finally: A significant scientific debate does not take place in newpaper editorials, think tank publications, or on web sites. It takes place in the peer-reviewed literature, at conferences and in journals. To show such a debate, bring scientific references. The global warming controversy article does not prove that "there is a serious scientific debate over many aspects". It shows that there is a public debate, not a scientific one. It's telling that e.g. Shattered Consensus was originally published not by a scientific publisher, or even a popular science publisher, but, of all things, by the Marshall Institute . --Stephan Schulz 20:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi Stephen, in response to your response of my response to your response:

1. "Excerpt": Then I suppose there is a very fine line between excerpt and summary then? A long summary is an excerpt, and a short excerpt is a summary?

2. As for my "Unsound Logic": You said " "If a view is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents"does not imply that the ability to name prominent adherents implies the existence of a significant view" " So isn’t the sentence’s purpose to check for undue weight?? If not what is the point of the sentence? How would you clarify this (if you can) for me and my unsound logic?

If I am in New York City, then I am in the United States. If I am in the United States, then I am in New York City. One of these is always true, the other is not always true. Brusegadi 00:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

OK, look at the first statement, Jimbo is talking about substantiating (proving) the existence of a majority view with commonly accepted referenced texts.

So you are saying that the purpose of the second statement is not to do the same substantiate (prove) the existence of a minority view with a list of adherents? If not, again I ask you, what is the purpose of the second statement? Or all the statements for that matter? I think both of you are underestimating the worth of these points, and are claiming that his statements do not clarify anything about giving undue weight. The machine512 08:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You said "Moreover, the people in your list do not hold a particular view. They hold different views that only have one aspect in common." Right, they do have one aspect in common "opposition of the consensus" But sharing in this is not an adequately unified view, and should therefore be omitted?

A devout catholic and an atheist both do not believe in Allah. Should their views be placed in parallel in an article about the existence of God? Brusegadi 00:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Because, Allah is not even worth mentioning, it is a specific type of God. The article questions the existence of all Gods in general. If Allah was needed to be mentioned, then why not? Just state why.

But this article is not about the *existence* of global warming. It is about global warming. Should the *existence of God* be brought up on the page about God? Well apparently it is. So what is the difference here? The machine512 11:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is only a short summary paragraph about the existence of God on God and then a link to another article. And of course that article is not in any way recognised or featured to make it a precedent for this one. --BozMo talk 16:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

3. "Debate": There are plenty of scientific debate points on that page. Therefore I don't see how you can claim "there is a public debate, not a scientific one".

The machine512 14:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Anthropogenic global warming

Also look at this survey.

"Of the 36 respondents, 44% considered global warming to be a largely natural phenomenon, compared to 17% who considered warming to be largely manmade."

If this holds true then why is so much weight given to anthropogenic global warming in this article? The machine512 16:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me guess, "Surveys aren't science" or "They are funded by ExxonMobil" The machine512 16:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Because its old (you noticed that, didn't you?) and because the US state climatologists are... well, only US; and not clearly appointed for climate-science-research expertise William M. Connolley 17:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahem... Please note that the study was done nearly ten years ago by Citizens for a Sound Economy, a "free-market", "anti-environmentalist" advocacy group in the US, polling then-government-appointees. There is no longer any significant mainstream debate about the influence of anthropogenic factors on global warming. So, to be frank, it's a junk science poll, one which implies there still was a fundamental substantive debate in the scientific community even ten years ago. And, it's attempted use to influence the WP article's content today is even farther away from the facts of the matter. ... Kenosis 17:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

...and the question was formulated really badly: Do you agree or disagree with the following statement "The overwhelming balance of evidence and scientific opinion is that it is no longer a theory but now a fact, that global warming is for real. There is ample evidence that human activities are already disrupting the global climate..." Would you agree or disagree with this statement?. I could certainly disagree with that statement, not only for grammatical and stylistic reasons, but also because "disrupting" is undefined, and because it implicititely misinterpretes "fact" and "theory" as degrees on a scale when they are very different things. And the sample is very small. And CSE is indeed sponsored by Exxon... --Stephan Schulz 17:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

1997 is too old eh?

Yes, 1997 is too old. The IPCC SAR was published 1995/1996, and stated the then current position as "The balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate". Note how the CSE question was asking for the overwhelming balance of evidence and disrupting the global climate, i.e. a much stronger position than presented by the IPCC. --Stephan Schulz 20:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK what about this survey by Dr. Dennis Bray of Germany in 2003 surveying scientists from around the world (PDF)...

"To what extent do you agree or disagree that climate change is mostly the result of anthropogenic causes? A value of 1 indicates "strongly agree" and a value of 7 indicates "strongly disagree".

Frequencies:

• 1 strongly agree 50 (9.4% of valid responses)
• 2 134 (25.3% of valid responses)
• 3 112 (21.1% of valid responses)
• 4 75 (14.2% of valid responses)
• 5 45 (8.5% of valid responses)
• 6 60 (10.8% valid responses)
• 7 strongly disagree 54 (9.7% of valid responses)

"These results, i.e. the mean of 3.62, seem to suggest that consensus is not all that strong and only 9.4% of the respondents "strongly agree" that climate change is mostly the result of anthropogenic causes."

The machine512 17:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I must say this is truly remarkable stuff, this assertion of a mainstream scientific "debate" in the year 2006. Not far around the corner is a day when no person who wishes credit for rationality and responsibility will want to admit to having taken such a position as is implied by the assertion that there is a real debate about anthopogenic influences involving overconsumption and other widespread abuses of the planet. (Among the likely excuses would appear to include "the evidence wasn't in yet", "I was misled", and "that wasn't what I meant".) Yet, here we are arguing about it. ... Kenosis 17:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"overconsumption and other widespread abuses of the planet" Uhhuhh. What does overconsumption have to do with global warming? You aren't a biased agenda pushing editor are you? The machine512 17:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Resorting to personal attacks should have been predictable based on the recent assertions made on this talk page and in other global warming related WP articles by User:The_machine512. I hereby retract my prior assumption of good faith. Have a nice day. ... Kenosis 17:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It could be pushing it too far claiming that there is a consensus about there being an "over"consumption and that there are widespread abuses of the planet (the latter as compared to the benefit this has to humans). I guess that is a centre-left point of view as of today. Some might hold that an economic depression due to mitigation of global warming to decrease consumption would be so uncomfortable that its impact might be worse (for humans, of course) than the reduction in warming. --Also, some may argue that the pollution/energy problem could be solved through massive construction of nuclear and solar power plants. Just speculating, I don't know a lot about these things. All this is outside the scope of this article anyway - Mitigation of global warming would be the correct place to discuss it, I guess. Narssarssuaq 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Kenosis, I am concerned about this article, as I do feel it displays a biased position. Is being concered wrong? I have essentially stated it before that I feel (and others feel) that the people watching and editing this article are biased agenda pushers! I'm sorry if this surprises or upsets you, but we feel its true, and there is nothing we can do about it because we are being reverted. The machine512 18:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Look I've been personally attacked for having "Unsound Logic" on undue weight, so don't feel so bad. The machine512 18:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What was attacked was what the logics of what you said, not you. Pointing out particular fallacies in other people's reasoning is never a personal attack, as long as it's in good faith. Narssarssuaq 18:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The statement by User:The machine512, specifically "You aren't a biased agenda pushing editor are you?" was an obvious attempt to frame the issue as one of political or ideological predisposition on my part rather than on the merits of the issues being discussed. The substantive issue of overconsumption and "abuse" vs. mere "use" of the planet, if that was the issue intended to be discussed, is one that should be discussed on its merits. The personalization of the issue in terms of a new question whether Kenosis is a "biased agenda pushing editor" was plainly not merely an "observation" of a logical flaw. As to whether there is a logical flaw, I would assert that each of the observations I made about rationality, being out-of-date by nearly a decade on a topic that has gotten the attention of most of the scientific community only within the past two-to-three decades, about the socio-economic political bias of the organization conducting the poll and the political standing of those polled, as well as the observation about likely excuses for some of those persons' past participation in a scheme to defraud the public about the facts of global warming in order to further their highly selfish and myopic economic agendas, are all highly relevant to this talk page discussion, and all very demonstrable even if not part of the scientific consensus per se. That said, I agree that as far as choice of which WP article is most appropriate to cover such issues, the material regarding "overconsumption" and "abuse of the planet" is more relvant to policy discussions covered in mitigation of global warming than it is to this article. ... Kenosis 19:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

So if 30% disagree, and 15% are "not sure" that global warming is anthropogenic why does this article give so much bias toward anthropogenic global warming? The machine512 18:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Brays 2003 survey was not published, you'll notice. In fact it was rejected. I don't know exactly why, but I would reject it for lack of control on who could participate. The design of the survey prohibited them from knowing if people sent in multiple replies; or any knowledge of who replied at all; and it was posted on skepic mailing lists William M. Connolley 18:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd assume Bray's "survey" is unpublishable because it's a methodological disaster. It was posted online with no attempt to verify respondents, no attempt to obtain a random sample, and only the crudest attempt to detect duplicate submissions (by looking for responses that gave exactly the same answers). It's worse than useless for its intended purpose. Raymond Arritt 18:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've looked at that survey before. The full data is here. From the survey:

• "We can say for certain that global warming is a process already underway." is 82% vs. 12% (median of 2)
• "There is enough uncertainty about the phenomenon of global warming that there is no need for immediate policy decisions." is 15% vs. 80% (median of 6)
• "The IPCC reports accurately reflect the consensus of thought within the scientific community." 72% vs. 20% (median of 2)

The question you (and other sceptics) like to pick out is actually misleading, as few people claim that "climate change is mostly the result of anthropogenic causes". The current episode of global warming is, but there are 4.5 billion years of climate change without any human intervention (and before you misinterprete me: "Listen, your honour, people have been dying withour my intervention for 50000 years. Even if I did shoot him, there is no reason to believe that that was the cause of his death!"). --Stephan Schulz 18:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict x2)I don't know - what about the survey? Where was it published? What methodology was used? The pdf you linked to references a "survey", but there's no information about the survey. The fact that they (apparently) couldn't be bothered to publish this survey makes it very suspect (especially from such an unreliable source). Guettarda 18:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

So essentially what you've all said is that "Surveys aren't science" (none of the ones I can present) or "They are funded by ExxonMobil". What surveys will you believe? The ones in your favor? The machine512 18:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That rather suggests that surveys are desirable. They aren't, always - it very much depends on the survey, those surveyed, etc. In this case, a survey of noted climatologists conducted by an independant research group would probably stand the best chance of being 1) relevant and 2) neutral. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 18:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You do have a point when citing "Of the 36 respondents, 44% considered global warming to be a largely natural phenomenon, compared to 17% who considered warming to be largely manmade". Present global warming has not for many years been thought to be anthropogenic. However, there has for a long time been a concensus about future global warming, which is the main point. Narssarssuaq 18:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

A survey or two does not decide the scientific consensus. What does decide the consensus is the results of scientific research (don't say duh! Read the paragraphs above!). For example, the National Academy of Sciences, the American Meteorological Society, the American Geophysical Union, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science have all publicly announced that 1) there is global warming, 2) it is a serious problem, and 3) human activity is a primary causal factor.

Instead of mucking around with surveys, find articles from peer-reviewed science journals which argue that global warming is not human-caused. Do these exist in large numbers? The now-famous Oreskes study suggests that they do not. If someone can provide three or more examples of such articles from peer-reviewed journals published within the past decade, there might be reason to doubt the solidity of the scientific consensus. Otherwise, forget about it. When a body of over a thousand scientists from over a hundred different countries which has been convened specifically to look at global warming science comes to the near-unanimous conclusion that it is, in fact, human caused (I'm talking about the UN's IPPC), a few Michael Crichtons and Steven Milloys here and there don't amount to squat. Dicksonlaprade 19:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Not to forget the 2005 Joint Statement by the Academies of Science of the G8 countries plus China, India and Brazil. Hardern 19:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There are two separate issues here. One is the general utility of surveys (or lack thereof), but in this specific case there's also the issue of reliable sources - this is a second-hand reference to an unpublished survey. It isn't something we can use to write an encyclopaedia article. Guettarda 20:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

From the article "Only a small minority of climate scientists discount the role that humanity's actions have played in recent warming." I suggest changing the loaded wording from "Only a small minority of climate scientists discount the role... to "A minority of climate scientists discount the extent of the role..." This removes the "only" and "small" words that are already implicate in the word "minority" and notes that the disagreement is to the extent of human contribution. IE, a single, human produced molecule of methane may add to global warming but its extent is minimal. The inclusion of these words "only" "small" serves as an attempt to enhance the extent of the minority when there is no clear refernces as to said extent. 70.90.102.194~~

You can't change it, you'll be reverted. Speaking of reversions, this has got to be the most reverted article on wikipedia. Just look at the history. The machine512 21:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree "Only" should go, for the reasons stated. "Small" is needed for accuracy. Without the qualifier, "minority" could go all the way to 49.999%. Raymond Arritt 21:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the way it is right now, "Only a small minority". Hardern 19:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps 'A very small minority'? I don't know how many - would even one percent of climate scientists be disputing AGW?

Modifications to intro

I believe that it should be mentioned in the introduction on this article that certain aspects of the "Global Warming Theory" are still in dispute. I proprose a well rounded, non-contradictory or inflamatory statement to that affect be posted as an addition to the first paragraph. I already posted one, but the administrators suggested I discuss it first, so, does anyone have a problem with that. Remember that my contribution can of course be edited after I make it. Any problems? Suggestions? I have no problem with splitting the article, as long as the intro mentions that. ----Borghuman 09:56, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Sorry, but your proposed addition is very much out of line with the current (and indeed the last 30 years) state of knowledge. The Oregon Petition is essentially worthless (less generous people would call it fraudulent), you are confusing weather and climate (climate is much easier to predict, and can, under reasonably assumptions, be predicted to a reasonably degree of accuracy decades in advance. The plot on globalwarmingart shows (reconstructed) local temperatures, and has a 300 year resolution, while the current episode of global warming is only about 150 years old. I'm not aware of any published peer-reviewed literature that contradicts the IPCC consensus (and you give no good reference to any). In short, this is not an improvement. If you think you can argue any of the points to a reasonable level of verifiability and weight, please argue them here.--Stephan Schulz 05:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I also noticed the way you bolded "Theory". As it has been mentioned repeatedly in many many forums, websites and wikipedia talk pages, a theory is not automatically dismissable as being "only probably true". On the contrary, a theory is usally assembled from established facts. That is, if you are using the scientific terminology, and saying the "Global Warming Theory" would be it's scientific use. Specusci 18:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Is global warming a bad thing?

It is widely reported in britain that water shortages are becoming more and more common such as the shortages in Essex. Surely gloabal warming and melting of the ice caps will result in a wide supply of liquid for commercial and recrreational purposes. This will reduce the need for hose pipe bans and as a result the general morale of the nation could rise. Also many areas of the world that will be affected are poor such as mexico and pakistan. Drowning these places could clense the world of poverty and the unaffected areas could start a fresh uniting in the need to survive resulting in a global frienship. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.5.247.66 (talk • contribs) 16:45, December 12, 2006 (UTC).

Ever seen "The day after tomorrow"? It might not be that rapid, but thats pretty much what will happen. You might actually have less water, because it'll be locked up in more ice. Not only that, but you'll pretty much have a canadian winter...all year. (Canadian winters are typically -30/40 degrees celsius). Specusci 18:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not what will happen, rapid or otherwise. --Spiffy sperry 19:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Anthropogenic Global Warming is the same thing as Anthropogenic Global Cooling, just with different words

Global Cooling was a theory that all prominent climatologists allegedly embraced, but now they say "it was just a theory that never gained wide acceptance", despite what the articles of the 1970s said. Soon Global Warming, which is now said to be accepted by all climatologists as fact (even though the evidence proves otherwise), soon it will be dismissed as a theory that never gained wide acceptance. All we need for that to occur is a downward trend in temperatures, much like what occured from 1940-1995. Then Global Cooling will become fact, and Global Warming will be "just a theory that a few fringe climatologists embraced, unlike Global Cooling, which we embraced all along". Then the story will change back to pollutants blocking out the sun causing cooling, rather than greenhouse gasses causing a rise in temperature. Just to let everyone know, whatever global warming is going on (as opposed to the theory, Global Warming) is mostly caused by a chemical called Dihydrogen Monoxide, also known as DHMO, and more commonly known as H2O, or water.

Please add a neutrality dispute tag to this article, this is the most biased article I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages, and one of the most biased that I have ever read on the internet. It consists of opinions intermixed with the occasional rigged statistic, and makes a complete strawman out of the opposition, and that's being far too kind. The above facts aren't even mentioned, and the Little Ice Age is mostly given the brush off, and I see NO mention of the Medivel Warm Period, where temperatures rised farther and more rapidly than they have been today. This article makes CNN and CBS seem fair and balanced by comparison.

PS: If you really are concerned about Global Warming, I suggest privatizing third world land and going with clean, efficent nuclear power, instead of allowing the Sahara Desert to expand and coal and oil power plants to throw out pollutants left and right. According to the Global Warming theory, that is what needs to be done. And also recognize that third world nations are the biggest contributers to pollution and environmental destruction, NOT first world nations like the United States. The Kyoto legislation was nothing more than an example of leftist greed to punish the United States and line their pockets, since afterall, third world nations aren't rich with money like we are. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.186.136.109 (talk) 00:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

Veuillez ne pas nourrir les trolls. Raymond Arritt 06:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Quite. A quick look at the other edits done by this IP in the same session and move on...--BozMo talk 10:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Un sous-produit normal de démocratie et de discours libre. ... Kenosis 19:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Sadly true. With free speech comes the responsibility to be vigilant concerning those who abuse it. -Amatulic 19:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Troll? I'm not a troll, I've done nothing wrong, although some have who share my IP, I'd like to hang them from the highest tree. If that's what you meant by the "troll" comment, that wasn't me. However, if you mean I'm a troll for not accepting the propoganda by the media, then I guess Gallileo, Columbus, and so on would be trolls by today's standards. The world is flat and the sun revolves around the Earth, and if you don't agree, then you're going against what "everybody knows to be true", right?

The simple way of disassociating you from them is to register an account and use it. This actually increases anonymity (as the IP is easier to trace than the arbitrary user name), and helps with personal accountability. Accounts are free and do not require the disclosure of any private information. Registration takes about 1 minute.--Stephan Schulz 12:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is biased, get over it. No amount of namecalling your opponents isn't going to change the fact that this is just a more sophisticated version of making a sacrifice to the thunder gods, hoping that they will grant us a stable climate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.72.224.118 (talk) 12:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

Biomass

Just noticed the bit on Biomass seems to imply that only plants growing on land matter matter. Given that growing plants in the sea has been looked at as a deliberate carbon sink and in the 80s was looked at as an alternative fuel source perhaps the wording should be a bit more general (e.g. "Soil or sea nutrient levels") etc. Views?--BozMo talk 11:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding this (Plankton), there was an interesting article in last week's Nature (just to let you know):

• Nature Abstract: doi:10.1038/nature05317
• News @ ScienceNOW: http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2006/1206/2
• News @ NASA: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2006/warm_marine_multimedia.html

--Hardern 23:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Tipping point

(1) The "tipping point" mentioned in one of the external links at the bottom isn't mentioned in the article. However, one often finds that it is referred to, mostly quite casually, in the media. Maybe we could include a sentence or so about what is known and what isn't known about this subject. I would guess that some readers are interested in sorting out the facts about this. (2) Also, regarding this link - it says, "The new research adds a third component, by calculating the likely contribution of carbon dioxide released from natural ecosystems such as soil as temperatures rise". -- Is the contribution from soil (and thus also bogs, I guess) really not part of IPCC's models?! I find that hard to believe. Narssarssuaq 22:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I recommend http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/07/runaway-tipping-points-of-no-return/ William M. Connolley 22:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

We need to remember - this is just a THEORY

Global warming is a theory - albeit with a lot of supporters, vested interests, and mounting scientific evidence - but still just a theory. A lot of theories don't pan out, and until they do, they should not be presented as fact. In all, this article is well balanced, but it is still describing what we *think* is happening, based on the evidence, and the distinction between fact and theory is a very important one here on Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:84.9.253.132 (talk • contribs)

Actually I kind of agree with this comment. The article describes scientific consensus (which is accurate) but the reader is left to judge whether scientific consensus is likely to be right or not. There are a few recent examples like the millenium bug where mankind put huge resources into something possibly unnecessarily as a result of a (hyped-up) consensus of interested scientists. How I wish it was the same for Global Warming... --BozMo talk 13:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ad 1: A scientific theory is the best you can have in science. See the "Theory of Gravity", the "Theory of Relativity", and the "Theory of Quantum Mechanics". A theory can be well-supported or less well-supported or even refuted (with AGW being rather well supported, but not on the same level as e.g. relativity). As often, the term "Global warming" is used for both the observable fact (temperatures are rising) and the scientific theory explaining this fact (i.e. mainly the increased greenhouse effect due to anthropogenic greenhoues gas emmissions, +several higher-order effects).

Ad 2: I'm not aware that the year 2000 problem ever was a serious scientific one. It was an engineering problem, a lot of resources were thrown at it, and it was solved (or at least contained). It's quite possible that too many resources were thrown at it, but we don't know what would have happened had we used less. --Stephan Schulz 13:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Nothing like stating the obvious I suppose (although of course you could argue there are also some axioms in Science which are better than theories). But are you suggesting that Computer Science should more properly be called Computer Engineering? As a mathmo I'll leave you to slug it out. ;) --BozMo talk 13:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Computer science is just discrete maths. Computer building is mostly EE nowadays. The year-2000 trouble was IT... ;-). --Stephan Schulz 23:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The millenium bugs where fixed in time by a lot of programmers and software engineers (not by scientists) because of that "unnecessarily waste of resources". Had they not been fixed, a lot of problems would have occurred. As an example: some of my company's clients did not upgrade (our economic software) in time and they had big problems with invoices and statistics after 2000 didn't show up (I fixed many related bugs in that software myself). It was a real problem. Kricke 23:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I essentially agree - note that I said "quite possible", not "a lot was wasted". And while this is veering off-topic: There was quite some science (and scientists) involved, too. As an example, a couple of rewrite- and logic-based systems were developed that automatically went through large code bases and fixed them to a reasonable degree. --Stephan Schulz 00:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

So what's going to happen? Is the world eventually going to become like Venus— too hot for any living thing? Or is it just a spike in temperatures that are likely to simply go down again? Is this whole thing the reason our winters are getting nastier and nastier (little or no snow; mild temperatures)? Please tell me, I'm dying to know! Scorpionman 22:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Most likely this is just a spike, but a spike that could be with use several 100 to several 1000 years. Short on a geological time scale, but long on a human one. Whether any particular weather event is a result of globa warming is hard to say. But yes, in many regions of the world, the winters will become warmer and possibly nastier... --Stephan Schulz 23:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The anon IP user User:84.9.253.132 above wrote: "Global warming is a theory". Well as I (a non-scientist) understands the article - the actual warming of the Earth's climate is observed fact, not theory. The theories relate to explaining why this warming is occurring, and if it is doing so at an unnatural, perhaps disastrously rapid rate. Even George W. Bush has publicly accepted that global warming is occurring and that this is a serious problem (but he denies or ducks the question of how much man-made emissions are a crucial factor) Bwithh 00:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. See my comment above. Global warming is an overloaded term, used for both the fact and the explanation (i.e. the theory explaining the fact and allowing us to predict further changes in the future). --Stephan Schulz 00:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I also find this article to be biased. Clearly there have been cooling cycles within the last 50 years, so to say we are unarguably warming is false, unless you limit your observation to a period - such as "over the last 10 years". Because there was a cooling cycle well after we became industrialized, it's further unreasonable to explain warming as being caused by the growth of industry. Finally, a consensus among like-minded individuals (IPCC), does not make the theory fact. 65.160.201.88 02:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummm...the IPCC authors are not a group of "like-minded individuals", but the cream of the international climatology community. The global temperature over the last 150 or so years is well understood and can be explained to a very high degree of precision by looking at natural and artificial forcings, with the temporary downward trend starting in the mid 1940s or so being mostly caused by sulphur aerosols. There is not serious doubt even among deniers that the climate is warming. --Stephan Schulz 19:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and we can be absolutely sure that it will destroy the world (give me a break). More research is need, Stephen. MORE RESEARCH. A spike in the global temperature is not evidence of global warming— how do you know that this hasn't happened in the past 2,000 years or so? The "Little Ice Age" that occured from the 1300's to the 1800's was no doubt a result of volcanic activity and the fact that there wasn't much methane emissions. Of course, methane has caused some warmup, but it's probably affected by a natural fluctuation occuring on the sun (like a series of solar flares or some such thing). If you are as worried as you appear to be about this "fact", then stop farting so much. That's where a lot of the methane comes from— cow and people flatulence. It's not vulgar, it's the truth. Scorpionman 13:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

More research is something that every scientist will consent to. But that does not mean we do not already have a reasonably good understanding of the climate - sufficiently well to understand the core mechanisms of global warming. "A spike in the global temperature" is the very definition of global warming. An observed spike in the temperature is not by itself sufficient evidence to induce the theory of anthropogenic global warming. But then, the core of this theory has been around since long before we could observe the warming. The observed warming trend confirms the theory that is based on a reasonably good understanding of the radiative and absorbing properties of the Earth and atmospheric gases. The "little ice age", if it existed as a global phenomenon, was correlated with both some volcanic activity and a reduction in solar activity (see e.g. the Maunder minimum), and so your "no doubt" is misplaced. This is the first time that I hear about reduced methane emissions during that time - do you have a source? And yes, human flatulence does produce methane, but in negligible amounts compared to ruminants and other sources (losses in natural gas production and transport, rice paddies, termites, ...). And of course, something can be both vulgar and the truth. --Stephan Schulz 22:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Help! Our planet is doomed! Within a couple years, the world's climates will grow too hot to live in. People everywhere will drop dead because of the heat! The icebergs and glaciers will melt and the oceans will flood and cover the continents. Then we will be plunged into the next ice age, which is due soon, and everything will freeze over and Earth will become lifeless like Pluto! What will we do? We are doomed! Ratso 14:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough, now let's fix up Global Cooling, so that it's recognized as the official climatological statement of the 1970s, and not just brushed aside as some cockamaney theory, like Global Warming will see happening to it as soon as we go into another cooling trend.

Apart from your misrepresentation of global cooling assessment in the 1970s: Would you bet some money on that the world is going to cool "soon"? Hardern 14:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the Y2K problem should not be used as an example of a supposedly unjustified scare. The reason why bad things didn't happen on 01/01/00 was because smart people took action (reprogramming software) to stop them from happening. JohnDziak 23:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I might note that the mere consensus amongst certain left-wing academics with an axe to grind does not make something true. There used to be consensus that the earth was flat but we now know that's not true. When it all boils down, there can be no science when consensus is involved. --The Outhouse Mouse 19:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Citation format

Are there any objection to changing inline link references to use <ref> tags and Citation templates? —Gary van der Merwe 11:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Not from me. Anybody else? Hardern 15:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Not from me, but I know others object - and . --Spiffy sperry 15:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to the archived discussions. I don't think there is any thing I can add to the discussion, and nothing has changed technicality. So I'm not going to change it unless the people who original opposed the idea have changed their mind. Gary van der Merwe 12:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

You can do a ref/Harvard hybrid, such as the one on Charles Darwin. It's harder to set up, though. Titoxd 22:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, for some of the web reference on the page you have to click 3 times to get to open the link, and 5 to open the link in a new tab, and return to where you were in the text. It's over kill. Gary van der Merwe 12:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

For which ones do you need three clicks? And why do you need more clicks for tabbed browsing?? Hardern 09:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is an example: ref number 91 (can be found in the section Reaction to the publication in the 4 paragraph. First you click on link, you get taken to Citations section. Then you have to click on "Bartholomew 1976", which takes you to the References section. Only then can you click on the link which take you the the web version of the text.

I did not say you need more clicks just to open in a new tab. I said:

...and 5 to open the link in a new tab, and return to where you were in the text.

Been able to do this with one click is the main argument for keeping line links.

Gary van der Merwe 10:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see that now. Yeah, that IS annoying the way it is done there. Hardern 14:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Naming

I just thought that the headline 'Nomenclature' should be replaced with something a little simpler, such as 'Terminology' or 'Naming'. Any thoughts? I'm all for using the most precise words possible, but where simpler ones exist that convey the same meaning, we should try and use those. This is an encyclopedia after all, not a journal... Mostlyharmless 03:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd be fine with "Terminology". --Stephan Schulz 08:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Radiation and cooling

I'm surprised that anyone objected, but cooling via radiation is a valid point of view of the process. All purely thermal equilibrium are a mixture of concurrent heating and cooling. That is just the definition of equilibrium. I think that if you have a problem with that wordage then you're getting hung up on the verbiage and not the concept. Mathchem271828 03:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I've clarified it a bit. I have no serious problem with it, but I don't see it as a huge improvement, either. Maybe we should add something about equilibrium and radiation balance to make it clearer for laymen? --Stephan Schulz 08:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a tiny bit of info on negative feedback effects on Effects of global warming. I couldn't find that in the global warming article right now. Narssarssuaq 09:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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• Top-importance Weather articles
• Unsorted weather articles
• WikiProject Weather articles