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Inc. it is

Shot

(1) Here it is, NCAHF, Inc. right now, 19 Dec 2006 (UTC), second paragraph of the NCAHF membership/donations solicitation.

(3) NCAHF is still representing itself as NCAHF, Inc. and soliciting funds from MA, right now, as such as in (1) above. Even if it shifted to a personal dba or whatever, that status change would be notable and perhaps complex, but "not a good, reassuring thing"

Again, legality is not the only notability issue. Exact "current status" unknown/known is not required, simply most recently / last known dated status reports, or portion thereof (e.g. not currently officially listed/registered in MA), is fine, there is always a lag (Wiki Yearbook anybody?). You don't have to know everything to state the notable facts that you do have, and they can speak for themselves. Any others?--I'clast 07:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Humour me, but since you are being very pedantic, why doesn't the "NCAHF Inc" ask it's donators and members to write checks out to "NCAHF" with no Inc? And why is it that in all the website, this is the only location that the "Inc" is still in. You are drawing a long bow here. Remember WP:OR. I must admit, I do like how you and Ilena (et.al) are wanting, nay, needing to find some bizarre little fault in an organisation that is plainly not incorporated, and not playing your little game of "find the conspiracy". HOWEVER, in saying all that, I don't object to it appearing but I find it very, very, very odd that it is regarded as notable, particularly in the light that some users (Ilena etc) have written that they regard this as illegal and hence notable. So if it isn't illegal, does that make it not notable? Anyway, time to move on. Shot info 12:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Inc: NCAHF doesn't seem to use Inc in its pre2003 newsletters either, assuming no alterations. Googling 1999-2006 "Inc" is about 100x less common than w/o Inc. and a temporary drop in half for Inc in 2004 & 2005 (uh-oh, BK whopper & fries?). More Inc: bottom para,CredentialWatch 2006, Google("national council against health fraud inc")=766. The change of this organization from Inc to non-Inc. would indicate some change of interest to prospective contacts. There is nothing plain here, it's dealing with shadows, all we can do is report the WP:V facts we can find. NCAHF & associates seem to maintain the mystery(s). Illegal would be only one of several reasons for notable. If NCAHF has truly changed from Inc to non-Inc, the article's history should reflect that, but that is OR right now. Basically: NCAHF literature sometimes says it's Inc (which *any* use may be more important to the states than the non-uses); IRS forms (unsigned by NCAHF officer) say Inc, CA says it's Inc, suspended; but it almost always used/promoted the inc'less acronym (like my utility company).--I'clast 14:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Summarizing: Lots and lots of original research trying to demonstrate notability. Ilena continues to push her pov. We have no concensus.

I think this research is interesting and worth ensuring that it's available for editors to read. However it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor should it be the sole supporting reason for publishing something about it in the encyclopedia itself. --Ronz 18:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ronz, we have WP:OR to push a POV provided by Ilena, and the article ignores WP:N again to advance Ilena's POV. Of course under protest it has been watered down such that it is not so obvious that it is PUSHPOV, instead there is a piece of trivia (unmarked) to allow the decision to be "left up to the reader" which is a admission of the failure to follow WP:N. I vote that we remove the section altogether given that a consensus cannot be reached per the normal wiki guidelines. Shot info 22:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the credit ... but the suspension of NCAHF and the proof that it is NOT a legal Massachusetts Corporation is not my POV ... they are facts, albeit ones that you and others would prefer to hide. Ilena 22:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ilena, your failure to understand wiki and it's purposes is documented on your talk page. The discussion isn't the "fact" is their notability. There is no argument about "hiding" or whatever this is YOUR POV creeping into the picture and frankly your failure to engage in fruitful wikiediting isn't helping to convince me that this exercise is nothing more than PUSHPOV. Now, lets vote. Shot info 23:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. I couldn't disagree more. Please and thank you. Ilena 23:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Guys, would you care to briefly articulate exactly what phrase(s) you consider OR and/or POV and why, please.--I'clast 00:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that would be ever so useful. Thank you. Ilena 00:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

So far it has been pointed out many, many, many times and then when it all comes to a conclusion, you ask....again. The original reason the original words by Ilena was put in there was to PUSHPOV and it was blatant OR. So after many, many, many, many, many, many, many words in the talk page later, it has been boiled down to proving a negative (ie/ we can prove what it is not) while engaging in OR by saying "It claims to be Inc but it isn't registered"... Then the whole question of N comes into play. Levine says it is N because "It claims to be Inc. but it isn't registered and if I was paying I would like to know this" (my paraphrase) so we have Levine saying it is N based on OR. So since it is OR why is it still notable. In particular when you remove the OR (the whole proving a negative bit about MA registration) it just becomes a dot trivia point about CA registration. Of course Ilena is PUSHPOV her POV to support her allegations of "illegal" activity which calls into the very question of why this now trivial point is notable. Now all this has been discussed over and over again and the reason it stands is because yourself, Levine and Ilena all have various reasons to include it. Ilena's is obvious POV, Levine is derived from OR and that only leaves yourself. And from the other three editors questioning this, it appears that you position is that it is notable. Why? Shot info 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I may have screwed up the 2nd archive, can somebody have a look? Shot info 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Shot info, my dear. With all due respect, it appears you are uneducated in State requirements for non-profits and suspended non-profits. If you understood this, you would fully understand what is so notable about NCAHF who claims to be a 'watchdog' and goes campaigns for: 'Accountability for those who violate consumer laws. " Ilena 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Please and thank you. Ilena 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Here we have evidence of WP:OR. I have previously pointed out that the IRS does not require an "organisation" to be a corporation to qualify for non-profit status. As for being uneducated, well, I'm not the one with the repeated warnings for uncivilty on my talk page.Shot info 04:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Shot, I wanted to give you the opportunity to clarify your positions on specific phrases after all the hub bub, so I could better address them. Frankly, matching your comments to specific policies is unclear if not confusing. Also it helps if you use difs e.g. "original words by Ilena", presumably her first ever edit on NCAHF (7 July 06). By the way, I forgot to thank you for this reply, with 4 enumerated points, I felt is was clear and easier to address.--I'clast 02:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, Shot Info, I believe you are putting words in my mouth and creating what is known as a "Strawman Argument"... where one creates an advesary which they can make an argument against. My reason for stating that this information is notable is that it concerns the corporate status of this entity. If it were in good standing with the state where it files taxes, then it wouldn't be notable. But as it isn't in good standing with California - it is suspended and has been for quite some time - this information is notable. No original research. Anyone can check the California Business Portal in one click and now we can check their IRS tax filings. Our job at Misplaced Pages is to collect information which can be verified and be presented by the editor following NPOV. Now then, for us to say that they are operating illegally WOULD constitute a WP:OR violation as we have not seen a reliable source (as of yet) stating this. However, to state that their license is currently suspended is verifiable from the highly reliable state business portal. To state that NCAHF operates out of Massachusetts can also be verified by checking their own website. Now then, just because they operate out of Mass. doesn't mean that they still aren't a California corporation. You can register your corp. in any state and not have an office there, but come tax time, you have to file with the state you are registered in. That is why - I would imagine - NCAHF files in CA yet has their office in Mass. Of course you won't find them in the Mass. corp database and stating that they aren't in the Mass. database is NOT notable.

To summarize: That they have a suspended business license in the state which they file taxes IS notable. That they operate out of Massachusetts IS notable. That they don't have a business license in Mass. is NOT notable. That they are operating illegally DOES constitute Original Research at this point as we don't have a verifiable saying just that. It isn't enough to have two facts which seem to point to this... we need it outright stated by a reliable source that NCAHF is operating illegal by collecting donations while their business license is suspended. All information - and especially one which claims an entity or person is acting outside the law - needs to be verified.

I hope this makes you clear about my current position on this. And know that I am not stubborn and I am always willing to change my mind. Just present the verifiable information and we'll see. Levine2112 02:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

A public apology: the quote I was reviewing "If I were making a donation for $100 to NCAHF (in MA), I would be very much interested that it is duly registered" is actually from I'clast rather than from Levine. Sorry about this, I misread the signature when making my paraphase. Shot info 04:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Levine, I slightly differ on MA because it is content rather than the subject or topic, where WP:N is not applied for this kind of notability (usefuless). See below Policies...--I'clast 07:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

So, lets do this again

1. Is the organistion a corporation....yes/no/unknown?

2. Is this notable...yes/no

3. Is the organisation a corporation in CA....yes/no/unknown?

4. Is this notable...yes/no

5. Is the organisation a non-profit organisation for the purposes of being able to call itself non-profit...yes/no/unknown?

6. Is this notable...yes/no

7. Is the organisation acutally resident in MA or is this their postal address...yes/no/unknown?

8. Is this notable...yes/no

9. Is the name of an organisation on a tax return more important than the EmpID# in area D of the return to the IRS...yes/no/unknown?

10. Is this notable...yes/no

So far from reading the above it appears that we have Levine agreeing that the current information is too much. So it can be pruned. Which will turn it into a dot point. And again it needs to be asked, is a single short sentence about incorporation status in CA ... notable.....without resorting to POV and OR. The more we discuss this, the more it seems like WP:ILIKEIT. Shot info 04:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I had hoped that you would enumerate, briefly explain *your* current best thinking & policy points since you (along with Ronz) asserted so many. This list asks questions in forms that may not correspond to the verifiable facts that we do have and is hence not so useful.--I'clast 04:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Because when you remove the OR and the POV you end up with a trivial point. Now admittably this is my POV but why I keep harping on it is that it is my opinion (and seemingly in agreement with Ronz and Arthur, but I will let them answer for themselves) this "fact" deserves to be deleted because of the non-triviality issues discussed in WP:N. I don't disagree with the fact, or even some of the conclusion(s) drawn from them. BUT we are in wikipedia here. We wikilawyer for a reason... Shot info 05:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

O and while discussing notability, is this dot point notable to an english reader resident in Canada, or the UK or for that matter anywhere around the globe? Wiki is just not for US residents. Shot info 05:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Policies when you RTFM

I, along with other editors here, have frequently used "notable" in more of a colloquial sense covered by other policies rather than WP:N; e.g. (from NPOV)

WP:N asks that the subject, NCAHF, and the topic, Incorporation status (or originally,About the organization) be objectively notable, noted by multiple sources, but not content

WP:OR is frequently (mis)quoted on source based research here,

Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

I'm not wikilawyering, I'm editing an encyclopedia, I've seen real corporate and academic frauds, and I've avoided a number of burns by such "pedantic" caution. I hope others will appreciate the effort, I've written bare facts to be encyclopedic.--I'clast 06:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:N asks that the subject, NCAHF,... be objectively notable, noted by multiple sources, but not content

Your POV from your OR.

Should readers be interested in a corp that has effectively left a state with legal troubles hanging on it ..... your money...on?

Your POV from your OR.

...An unincorporated company/association...its members by potentially being liable. all the members, collectively, or any one... Members of unincorporated associations may also be liable for any civil wrongs that they participate in, authorize or even simply assent to by vote or otherwise.. eeuuuu.

Again, your POV from your OR.

Do we have all the gods-eye answers? No. Do we have to have them? No....facts, each one counts,...informed questions...informed decisions. So when someone asks you to be "members" of an unknown or unincorporated association (company, uninc corp), be careful there pardner.

Still your POV from your OR. So how much of your OR do you have to write to claim that you are not engaging in sythesis....or (god forbid) POVPUSH?

So in other word WP:ILIKEIT...check:

Admitably the original intent of drawing readers to the conculsion that the organisation is acting neferously has being removed but only replaced with something more subtle. "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C."

Please don't split my comments, it makes them hard to read. I've extracted my text and reformatted yours.

Now, I've tried to conversationally illustrate some of the encyclopedic interest, prudent caution, potential uses, and all I get is a face full of "POV and OR" on bare facts. Hear this. There is strictly no SYNTHESIS in the content, so pls quit trying to blast me/us with OR, POVPUSH, ILIKEIT. Again, pls read WP:NPOV, Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete.

Bottom line: WP:V, WP:RS applies to the two content sentences; WP:N (WP:NOTE) may apply to the whole subtopic. WP:OR does not apply to source based research. Germane, bare facts & no synthesis. I don't think this can be more clear. If you don't like Wiki policies, you can try to rewrite them. But not the facts.--I'clast 09:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I've made myself perfectly clear on this. I think it's OR. I'd like a source to back all the interpretation of facts. I think any other editor could and should ask for the same. --Ronz 16:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLP

This policy states we may not use primary sources for potentially (thank you, Ilena) defamatory information if there no reliable secondary sources for the information. If it applies to groups and associations, as noted in a recent Arbcom case, this would require that the incorporation status section be removed. This is still a close matter. I don't see OR or NPOV violations, but the WP:BLP issue may require removal. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome, Arthur. The State is the ultimate source of the legality or non legality of a corporation. Frankly, with all due respect, all of this blah blah about a verifiable fact about a suspended operation is a bit pathetic. Thank you. Ilena 15:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

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