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This article is written in Hong Kong English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Recurring controversial edits

@Eterror: made a major, unexplained change which brought the article back to a Feb 2016 version that was previously reverted for cause by @Citobun:. @Ohconfucius: also reverted a similarly contentious Eterror edit back in May 2016. I have reverted Eterror's latest massive changes, which require some justification, with talk discussion here as required. Dl2000 (talk) 23:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Reverted again. I suspect that this could be the actions of a COI account. -- Ohc  22:18, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

And again – I've reported the user at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Citobun (talk) 01:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Hopefully after the block, Eterror will approach any article edits differently. Thanks to both of you for the added watching/reverting. Dl2000 (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

July 2019

Due to the 2019 independence protests stemming from the proposed extradition bill, there is renewed interest in hong kong politics. Changes have been made by pro-beijing editors with subjective comments such as "he has become a voice of reason against pro indendence movement and civil disobedience.JOSHUA4230 (talk) 06:41, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Yuen Long mobs

Recent edit by Beijing IP address 47.75.196.105 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) claims that the Yuen Long mobs were "primarily targeting those wore black and most of whom just got back from Causeway Bay protests". This is not reflected in coverage by reliable sources, which states that commuters, protesters, and journalists were all targeted. Citobun (talk) 08:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions

I would remind editors not to input any potentially libellous content per the DS notice above. STSC (talk) 18:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

What is his party?

I don't see it mentioned. Kaihsu (talk) 19:53, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Kaihsu Junius Ho is an independent candidate, but he is often labelled as a member of pro-beijing camp. This is a reasonable move given that he often votes in favour of bills or motions that the DAB backs. However, it is also important to note that Ho do go against the standard narrative of the East at times, this is demonstrated in his voting in favour of Tiananmen square protest memoralization at the Legislative Council.Thomaslam1990 (talk) 04:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Re: "whitewashing effort"

@Citobun

Refer to 08:14, 13 May 2020

Changing the phrase 'attackers' to 'white-shirters' is not a whitewashing move. It is important that we clarify that when Junius Ho shook hands with those white-shirters the attack has yet to occur. It is only after the Yuen Long Incident that they should be labelled as attackers.

Furthermore, your blanket reversion fails to make note of my contributions to clarify/update certain controversies as mapped out on the wikipedia page. The edits were rightly cited after @Underbar dk 's contribution.

Addition to philanthropy sections is long-due. The page as it is is already very biased with no mention of his political/legal contribution to the community. The move to assume that I have a conflict of interest is highly unfounded. Should you believe that this is the case, surely you also ought to clarify your interests? At least read the ammendments I made and comment on which parts you would like to dispute so we can have a discussion from there on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomaslam1990 (talk • contribs) 10:07, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Given that the Yuen Long attack occurred already, I think we can call them "attackers" now. I posted a WP:COI tag on your talk page as I always would when a single-purpose account engages in (what appears to me to be) white-washing, PR work, etc. I also note that this article has a long history of editing by users with undeclared COI, as previous revisions were incredibly promotional and unencyclopedic in tone. I do not have any conflict of interest to declare. Please review WP:COI, Misplaced Pages:Paid-contribution disclosure, and ensure that you are complying to any relevant policies. Thank you, Citobun (talk) 10:16, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

To your first point, that is obviously untrue. Not distinguishing the temporal order of the two events will inevitably lead to bias and flavouring of the texts. Furthermore, read the page as it is right now. It's literally littered with controversies and citations of people expressing their opinions. For example, "knife-like"? It was literally reported on the news that it's a 33-cm long blade. The Inciting murder of independence supporters section is not even factually correct. Ho never said those words in conjunction during the rally. I point this out in my edits, I clarified the facts and kept the rest. I also updated the SRA incident and the knife attack incident with correct citations. I addressed @Kaihsu 's question regarding his political affiliations. And many more. You obviously did not read through my edits and decided to blanket delete the edits I made with correct citations. FYI, I do not have any conflict of interest to declare, and I'm not being paid to do any of this. Thomaslam1990 (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I updated the knife description.

You have added a lot of problematic content. For instance, the passage about how "Albert Ho's defeat may also owe to the controversy where he was caught browsing soft-pornography of young female models during a meeting" is not reflected in the cited sources, one of which is an opinion piece. Why did you shorten the full title of the 2014 movement, "Occupy Central with Love and Peace", to "Occupy Central"? The passage about "Colin Sparks" is not cited to any reliable secondary sources and basically seems trivial. I don't agree with your argument about the "attackers" terminology, and besides, you also changed "attackers" to "white-shirters" in a passage regarding a comment Ho made AFTER the attack, so what then? Citobun (talk) 02:25, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Good, we're making progress. What about the clarifications I made on the SRA/legal qualification controversy and the false statements made under Inciting murder of independence supporters? I was in the middle of editing the page when you blanket reverted everything and accused me of COI. I knew what is going to publish was gonna be edited somehow, and given the Pending Changes Protection, I was using the publish as more or less a save button because I had unstable internet and I wrote lots. Meet me halfway and look at the positive contributions I've made. I'm also willing to redact the subsequent white-shirter changes, so long as the temporal and causal orders are correct on the incident. I also want to update news regarding the Yuen Long incident aftermath, especially in matters current to LegCo censure motion on both Junius Ho and Lam Cheuk-ting. Re: Edits on Albert Ho, I admit that what was said may not necessarily be reflected in the news cited, but it is nonetheless true that said controversy did impact the election results. Furthermore, re: occupy central edit, that was a mistake, I do not recall doing that, it must have occurred when I shifted sections back and forth.Thomaslam1990 (talk) 03:07, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I have taken a third opinion request for this page and am currently reviewing the issues. I shall replace this text shortly with my reply. I have made no previous edits on Junius Ho and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Galendalia CVU Member \ 04:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Citobun: and @Thomaslam1990: - As far as the Third Opinion Request asked for by Thomaslam1990, it was asked for a couple of hours after their discussion above, which is not a substantive time for a response. I would recommend giving more time to the other editor to respond. I am making some general recommendations though. In reviewing the article, I can say it is not an easy read for the way in which it was written. It is highly recommended that this be written like an encyclopedic article instead of reading it as an autobiography. As far as the "whitewashing" as put forth in the third opinion request, there seems to be a lot of controversy on this page which IMO is too much (but of course most politicians in any country have them based on research for my college course on history I actually focused my final paper on controversies within the governments). What I am recommending is all parts need to neutral and for you to read "Don't teach the controversy" essay I hope this helps, if you need more clarification or anything, please feel free to ping me. As a reminder, this is only a third opinion and is not binding in any way. If you still feel that this needs to go to the next step, please make sure you get enough editors' comments on this page before opening the next step in the dispute resolution process. I am a volunteer with the dispute resolution noticeboard, so shall it get to that point, I will not be your moderator, nor can I be named as an editor since I am only providing a third opinion. Have a great one and keep on helping Misplaced Pages! Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ 05:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Galendalia: Thank you for your comments, I hope your input would convinvce @Citobun: to collaborate with me to ensure that the page adheres a neutral stance, and that the controversies integrated with other sub-sections for a better read and more informed documentation of the events in question.Thomaslam1990 (talk) 07:30, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Thomaslam1990 (talk) 05:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC) (P.S: Noted Thanks)

@Thomaslam1990: No problem! Always remember to sign your signature by adding ~~~~ to the end of your edits and in the future when you request a third opinion be sure to post it in the discussion that you have requested such (and the same for any dispute resolution). Cheers! Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ 06:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you @Galendalia:. I don't have much time at the moment but briefly want to say I don't object to neutral contributions nor corrections. For example, if Ho's "killed mercilessly" comment is misquoted, it should definitely be corrected. I object to edits that seem to constitute whitewashing, using unnecessarily obtuse language (e.g. "white-shirters" over "attackers"), etc. I feel this way about any Misplaced Pages article. Thanks, Citobun (talk) 06:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Citobun: - You would be correct in this circumstance as the language in an article such as that is not an NPOV and if quoting something, it should be the exact quote. If paraphrasing it should have the same meaning and not simply slang or such. "Killed mercilessly" could be re-written to "murdered" which would have the same effect while still obtaining an NPOV, provided it is not related to something like a genocide, at which point you hit a whole different ball game. Once the article has been edited, with you both in agreement, feel free to ping me and I can look over the article and provide more recommendations. Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ 06:51, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Galendalia: @Citobun: So I went to the piece of citation to verify the wording of the article. To preface it first, Apple Daily is a news outlet that is often hyper-critical of Junius Ho. Having said that this is what they wrote: "立法會議員何君堯與大批白衣人握手，更舉拇指及鼓掌稱讚，有白衣人向何君堯稱「你哋係我嘅英雄」" Google translate has it that the preceding phrase meant: Legislator He Junyao shook hands with a large number of people in white. They even raised their thumbs and applauded. Some people in white said to He Junyao, "You are my hero.". Given the abovementioned, I believe that I have a good case that I am not white-washing per se. There are also many other articles from various other news outlet that supports the 'white-shirter' interpretation. Phrasing that they were attackers will undeniably flavour the texts such that it violates a NPOV. I am only interested in rectifying the tone and false/unfounded allegations made against the legislator. Let's not reduce ourselves to populist thinking and gear the article towards the truth and neutrality.Thomaslam1990 (talk) 13:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Thomaslam1990: Thank you for that input. I do not see apple news as a non-biased news source, after I typed this I looked it up and if you read our own article Apple_Daily you will see that it is not acceptable as a source. I am going to have it added to our source list as well. Galendalia _{CVU Member} \ 15:14, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

(Replying to both of you at the same time) – It does not "flavour the text" to describe the perpetrators of an attack as "attackers" in the context of the Yuen Long event. It is simply the most direct and neutral description. The chronological order of events could easily be resolved by adding the phrase "prior to the attack". Secondly, while Apple Daily has a pro-democracy editorial stance, it is still basically a credible source for Hong Kong news. A 2019 survey by the Chinese University of Hong Kong saw Apple Daily ranked as the second-most credible Chinese-language newspaper based in Hong Kong (out of 17). That said, "白衣人" is now readily understood in Chinese, in Hong Kong, to refer to the Yuen Long attackers, while "white-shirters" in English is not, and is just unnecessarily obtuse and confusing. Citobun (talk) 01:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Galendalia, Citobun, and Thomaslam1990: I don't know anyone calling them "white-shirters". If we are to invoke the word "white", use "White-clad". Apple daily is inherently biased. For a less biased source, use SCMP or The Standard, or even global sources and media like the Economist (assuming that there was coverage). Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 02:29, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Galendalia, Citobun, and Eumat114: I agree with Eumat's suggestion to adopt the term "white-clad" instead. Other examples of SCMP posts refer to the incident as such: "A video circulated online showed Ho shaking hands with men wearing white tops and thanking them on the night in question.", "White-clad men attacked travellers and passers-by at Yuen Long station in July", "A video circulated online showed Ho shaking hands with men wearing white tops and thanking them on the night in question.", etc. I disagree with Citobun's response about Apple Daily's credibility. It's literally a survey he's citing, which is based on opinion and not a thorough study of journalistic integrity in any legitimate metrics. Furthermore, Chinese University students are well documented to be highly in favour of the protest and harbouring anti-establishment sentiments. Additionally, as I've explained many times before, almost like a broken record now, yes saying that they are attackers assumes that they are attackers at the time of which Ho shook hands with them. This flavours the texts. Consider this hypothetical situation: Jerry's friends with Eric Harris since kindergarten. Many years later, in 1999, the Columbine massacre happened. Is it correct to henceforth label Jerry as a friend of murderer, or that he played with a murderer when he was young or fell in love with a murderer when he was young? etc. I do not believe this is the correct attitude to adopt. Because it assumes responsibility or guilt despite there being none. It also invokes other emotional or moral baggage by association. If we are truly committed to a NPOV, we should at least/at minimum ensure that the two events are painstakingly unique and not necessarily having any causal relations. This is why I was so adamant about the interpretation of "attackers" (see previous discussion: "Not distinguishing the temporal order of the two events will inevitably lead to bias and flavouring of the texts.")Thomaslam1990 (talk) 05:31, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

1. https://hk.news.appledaily.com/local/realtime/article/20190722/59848508. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
2. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3019637/hong-kong-police-launch-raids-white-clad-thugs
3. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3035922/hong-kong-legislator-junius-ho-suing-three-pan. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
4. . SCMP https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3035297/british-university-strips-pro-beijing-lawmaker-junius-ho. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

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