Revision as of 21:53, 27 December 2006

Reference Desk

December 19

Correct use of the term "Band" (as in Rock Band) and minimum number of members?

On the article for Virtual band it states that virtual band refers to "any group whose members are not flesh-and-blood musicians, but animated characters." The article also mentions Crazy Frog (the CGI character) several times as an example and includes an image of him.

I added a comment to the talk page suggesting that Crazy Frog shouldn't be included in the article because he's not a "virtual group", but a "virtual soloist", because unlike a band or group Crazy Frog only consists of himself (sorry if this is sounding silly). An editor replied and from what I can gather the reason for the Frog being called a band is because there's another CGI character in the backround of the promo videos (although it's Frog who is "singing"), and also because sometimes a DJ might be referred to as a band (although in my experience that's usually done in error due to many DJs being fairly anonymous).

Anyway, I'd like to know, am I so out of touch with youth culture that music terminology has changed without me knowing it? Or is this a cultural thing? I'm in the UK and we definitely don't refer to Crazy Frog as a band or a grop here. When I added the comment to the talk page I just assumed I was stating a plain fact, but now I'm wondering. 172.188.153.235 03:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think most people would agree that a "band", whether real or virtual, consists of more than one person (with the exception of a one-man band of course :) ! ) The more inclusive words "artist" and "act" are commonly used in the music business to refer to solo performers, DJs, and bands (regardless of whether they could be considered "artistic" or not). I think Crazy Frog is in the virtual band article mainly because there is currently no virtual artist, virtual act, virtual soloist, or virtual entertainer article. --Lph 13:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I consider band to have at least four (4) members. My reasoning: Keane has three members, I don't consider them a band. I don't know why -- I just don't. Travis and Coldplay have four members, I do consider them to be bands.

Also, you get a group like Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. The core of the group is really just Tom Petty and Mike Campbell -- so I don't consider them to be a band either. Vranak 16:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a weird rule. So The White Stripes aren't a band? zafiroblue05 | Talk 19:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it is so much a rule as one person's preference. Band (music) just says "a company of musicians, or musical ensemble," and musical ensemble refers to "two or more" musicians. So They Might Be Giants? Still a band. (See also WP:HORSE.) - Eron 01:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Song Lyrics... "Booty booty"

I went to a Christmas party the other night and heard lots of interesting music. One of the songs -- that my friends are all calling "the booty song" I've not been able to find. The song is very rhythmic with lines like:

Big booty
Little booty
*something* booty
*smoething* booty
..
..
Booty booty booty booty booty...

I've Googled this and still can find anything. Any clues as to the artist of the name of the song? Any help would be appreciated! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.145.200.110 (talk) 04:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Maybe by Kendall or L-Macc, but probably by Bubba Sparxxx called 'Ms. New Booty'. Wolfgangus 05:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, at least as concerns Bubba Sparxxx. The lyrics were basically, "Booty booty, big booty, little booty, something booty," over and over again.. There weren't many words other than "booty" preceded by some other descriptive word. The singer had a rough, gravelly voice, I think. --70.145.200.110 07:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Alexander's quip?

Alexander the Great is credited with saying "Ου κλεπτω την νικην" — so what the heck does that mean? Big Blue Marble 06:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Should ask on Language Reference Desk. The most basic literal translation is "I don't steal the victory". Not sure about any double meanings... AnonMoos 07:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It isn't a quip, merely a remark easily interpreted as youthful arrogance but understood by Arrian as displaying maturity and intelligence. Search for steal on these pages , . meltBanana

Books of condolence

These days, whenever someone in the public eye passes away, one of the first responses is to open a book of condolence (the article is just a stub). My impression is that this phenomenon was pretty rare before the death of Princess Diana. Am I right? --Richardrj 06:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure these have always been present at every funeral I've been to. It's sort of like a guest book. --Nelson Ricardo 07:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The practice of placing a Book of Condolence at a foreign embassy or office is pretty old. The idea is that those, in far flung places, who are unable to attend and offer their respects in person can sign the book. The book is then transported to the family, or in some cases, an archive run by the state (or organization).

Another thing that's becoming popular is the minute's silence (in the UK at least). It's all part of the grief culture. --Auximines 09:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

All of my experiences in relation to books of condolence and minutes of silence have been from the UK - which seems to do these things more often as we head onwards into the future. The first one I remember ever signing was for the 9/11 attacks, the town hall had a book people could sign. Now I was in the US in the years previous, and this was never usual at any funeral I had ever attended nor was it in relation to any event except for gradutaing school (both grade and high school) where in addition to ceremonies we had books for our friends to sign - but we each had our own book, which we were to keep as a momento and rememberance of childhood friends. Robovski 05:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there was a book of condolence at my father's funeral, which was in the U.S. in 1999 (post-Diana but pre-9/11). —Angr 21:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

My grandmother's guestbook, commenced in 1917, was signed by every vistor at her funeral in 1964; the names just filled up the last page. --Wetman 04:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Fleetwod Mac - Information on the album " Tusk"

Hi,

When the album 'Tusk' was initially released in 1979 it was a two record set; on obtaining the 2CD set of this album recently, it had what I believe to be all the original songs on one disc and on the second disc, a collection of demos, roughs and outtakes ( I can thoroughly recommend this set )

I Googled 'Fleetwood Mac', visited the official web site and asked this same questions, unfortunately this site was unable to provide an answer to said questions which are as follows

 - Are all the original songs from the double album of 1979 on this CD
 - List all the titles of the songs as released on this album in order / per side
    - eg.  Side One -  Track One
                       Track Two
                       Track Three

           Side Two -  Track One  etc.

If this question can not be answered by your organisation, could you advise me as to whom one should contact in order to do so; it's my opinion that an avid collector of Fleetwood Mac would have this information especially if said collection has original vinyl recordings but I do not have the knowledge of how to contact such a collector.

Thanking you for all of your assistance in this matter.

Seasons Greetings

Regards, Paul —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.226.217.13 (talk) 06:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

According to this Google search, the track listing for the double vinyl LP is as follows:

Side 1:
 1. Over And Over
 2. Ledge
 3. Think About Me
 4. Save Me A Place
 5. Sara
Side 2:
 1. What Makes You Think You're The One
 2. Storms
 3. That's All For Everyone
 4. Not That Funny
 5. Sisters Of The Moon
Side 3:
 1. Angel
 2. That's Enough For Me
 3. Brown Eyes
 4. Never Make Me Cry
 5. I Know I'm Not Wrong
Side 4: 
 1. Honey Hi
 2. Beautiful Child
 3. Walk A Thin Line
 4. Tusk
 5. Never Forget

--Lph 13:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Happy memorial services

Another trend in marking people's passing is the happy memorial service. We often hear that memorial services are intended as a "celebration of X's life", rather than an occasion to mourn their death. Again, this seems to me to be a recent trend. Any views? --Richardrj 06:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe these usually occur at the request of the deceased, rather than being something the next-of-kin come up with. --Nelson Ricardo 06:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

An Irish wake seems to me to be as much of a celebration as a mourning. StuRat 14:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

For another tradition, see the page on the New Orleans jazz funeral. -- Deborahjay 20:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been common for many decades, and probably longer, for dead emininent Britons to have a funeral, and some weeks later later a memorial service in which their life is celebrated. Maybe the two events have been combined these days for less eminent persons. JackofOz 00:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Financial Models

What are Financial Models? How do Financial Models work? --Foundby 06:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• See Model (economics) Dave6 10:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (movie) symbolism

Template:Spoiler At the end of the above named movie (I warned you - so please don't read this if you haven't seen it - it'd ruin a great movie for you), the main character, whose name I forget, is stabbed several times. There is a point where he looks down at his hands and you see both hands in the screen. On one hand is the cut he got at the beginning trying to disarm someone who cut himself because he was fired by forgotten-named main character. On the other, the blood from the stabbing has pooled into an almost mirror image of this wound. I was wondering what the director could have meant by that. The first thing that comes to mind is that possibly the director was connecting the trauma and destruction of this whole circle of violence and revenge to the monetary system that put the various characters in the positions they found themselves and led that man to cut himself. Does anybody think that's a viable conclusion to draw? - that the director is critiquing the class divisions inherent in capitalism? Might this too be why he surprises the viewer at the end by showing that the almost comical anarchist/anti-capitalist girlfriend wasn't lying at all about the numbers of people behind her cause? I'm just hoping someone could offer his/her two cents to the interpretation of those scenes in the movie as well as the message of the movie itself, because I feel I must have missed something. Fabulous movie. For those of you who haven't seen it and were curious enough to keep reading (despite warnings), you should really rent it. Fantastic. Thanks for any input, if it comes. Sashafklein 07:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, and to be honest I don't directly recall the blood pooling from one hand into a mirror image on the other. I think you should think about the possibility that the entire last scene was not necessarily real, and possibly a hallucination. Compare to another scene (that I can only barely remember) when the guy hugs the girl who died in the water, even though he is clearly hallucinating her... And then there is water on the floor when the next guy comes in, if I remember correctly, insinuating that his hallucination has gone an extra step: he's deliberately put water on the floor in order make it more real. (Either that, or the girl literally comes back as a ghost, which implies that the killers at the end are real only in a supernatural way.) When you say that the girlfriend is "almost comical," I think you should take it a step farther - her anti-capitalist actions (passing out the fliers and such) are absolutely comical, and it is almost ridiculous that the killers would appear at the end. Scratch that - it is ridiculous. Did you laugh when they appeared? I think I did.

Anyways, take of that what you will. In short, I think it's a stretch to say that from the image of blood on his hands the director is critiquing class divisions - surely, that element is there from earlier in the movie (the whole kidnapping/ransom thing), but just as much he is satirizing radical opposition to such class divisions. zafiroblue05 | Talk 18:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't laugh at the end because I was too shocked by the terrific bloodiness of the scene where the guy's achilles tendons are sliced open and start leaking underwater. God. Somehow the blood in this movie was just so much more bloody. Sashafklein 05:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Man. I just saw Oldboy. The ending was even weirder. Sashafklein 08:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Possibly the most horrific scene in all three of the movies is in the last third of Sympathy for Lady Vengeance, though the rest of the movie isn't up to the standard of the first two. zafiroblue05 | Talk 18:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I see that tonight. These movies are pretty great. Sashafklein 19:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. That last third was pretty great. Not that bloody though. And a lot of weirdness. The two final cake-eating scenes are just bizarre. Sashafklein 05:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

New Title Sequences in Japanese Anime?

Moved from Language 惑乱 分からん 09:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do Japanese animated shows change their front and end credit sequences so often? Every season or so, it seems that a newly animated title sequence - with new music - is commissioned. I assume that these new sequences must require a significant investment, so I assume there's a logical business-related reason behind the change, as opposed to simple boredom. Does anyone know anything about this? Thank you.

(In addition: I understand that this might not be the best forum for a question regarding foreign television standards. However, I assume that this is the most likely place monitored by Japanese speakers, who I presume might know more about Japanese culture. Moderators, please feel free to move this thread to another part of the reference desk, if you think it would be more appropriate elsewhere.) --Brasswatchman 06:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I can think of a few reasons:

• Language changes: If it's dubbed into a new language, the credits will need to be changed to reflect that dubbing, and also to list the remaining credits in the new language. StuRat 13:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Distribution changes: If a new distribution occurs, possibly under new laws and to new countries, there may be additional legal requirements for info to be included in the credits. The name of the new distribution company may also need to be included, although this typically just seems to be appended at the end. StuRat 13:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Legal challenges: If some people or companies had their presence and prominence in the credits specified in their contracts, and those contract requirements were not honored, they are entitled to require that the credits be changed to comply with the contract. StuRat 13:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, this doesn't seem to be what Brasswatchman refers to. It would likely be easy to just change the layers of text in the credits and replace it with new names. I could guess that it's a marketing method to renew interest in the series. Include new scenes from special moments (with cool FX/ better animation) in the new season, etc... 惑乱 分からん 14:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Language concerns are definitely not considered when making anime as they are all intended for local market. (Exceptions are very rare I think) Marketing is probably principal. Also as this has become common for anime to change OP/ED every trimester (at a rate of 1 episode per week thats 12-13 episodes) now its probably more of a custom and something that is expected by the viewers. Would be interesting to research when this trend started... Shinhan 16:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Would be interesting to research when this trend started... - That's what I was hoping someone knew, Shinhan. Does anyone know anything more about this? Or know of someone in Japan - an anime researcher or historian - who might have researched this? Thank you - all of you - for your help. --Brasswatchman 01:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but it's not limited to Anime - Stargate Atlantis went through three opening credits in its first two years (the music for the 1st and 3rd was identical, the 2nd was a truncated version of this, all 3 had different graphics). Commander in Chief also changed music and graphics half way through its only season, presumably in an effort to reinvigorate it. Generally I would imagine it's to keep it looking new and updated. --Mnemeson 22:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not quite what I'm talking about. With most American shows, while I'm sure there are revisions - as with Atlantis - I'm betting that the outlines more or less remained to same, right? They might have changed the graphics, but the theme music remained the same. As for Commander in Chief, as I remember, that show was desperately looking for an audience, right? With animes, a new title sequence is created - from scratch - with music every fifteen episodes or so (though there are exceptions). I don't think American television really has an equivalent, and I'm curious to know why and how the Japanese television industry use this strategy. --Brasswatchman 21:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There are many American shows which have completely new title sequences with each season. A couple of examples are The Cosby Show and Everybody Loves Raymond. On Raymond, for example, we had the following opening credits (not in any order, and I may have missed some):

• Conveyor belt
• Flying
• Assembling playhouse
• Hiding from the relatives
• Football game

StuRat 17:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it may also stem from giving more identity to each season. Take for example Detective Conan, or ] as you americans call it :D - it has 11 seasons and 19 different openings. So if you watch the series on syndication, where it and others are often aired non-chronologically, you can see from which season the part you are watching is from the intro. Also when there are radical plot changes the intro may change to to enhance and show the change. Like in Enterprise there are 2 episodes that are settled in a mirror universe, and the intro changes accordingly. Aetherfukz 23:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking for British Comedy's name

I'm trying to find the name of a British TV comedy series. Unfortunately I don't know much about it apart from that it was a sitcom and main characters were an elderly lady (perhaps in her 60s) and her son. The other occasional characters were the lady's other son and his wife. Does anyone have any clue? Mahanchian 14:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your description sounds like it could be Mother and Son, an Australian show - although perusal of that article shows it was remade in the UK as Keeping Mum. Could that be it? Natgoo 18:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Mahanchian, this sounds a little like Sorry!, a situation comedy starring Ronnie Corbett. The only difference is that Timothy Lumsden, the character played by Corbett, had a married sister, rather than a brother. Clio the Muse 20:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Natgoo and Clio, thanks for your responses. I checked these comedies but the one I'm looking for is non of these. Thanks again. Mahanchian 22:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Another possibility is the series That's My Boy, which ran from 1981 to 1986 and starred Mollie Sugden as an elderly lady and Christopher Blake as her son. --Roisterer 02:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Names of different countrymen

Hi, Liyaquath

By what name people of different country called. Example : People who reside in India are called Indians —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.65.155.103 (talk) 16:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

There are what -- a good 250 countries in the world? I daresay asking for a complete list is a bit ambitious! Vranak 16:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an ambitious website. Have a look at the list of demonyms here (on the right): List_of_adjectival_forms_of_placenames#Nations. Skarioffszky 17:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

(I had to do a double take - this is my first encounter with the word demonym, and my initial impression was that it had to do with demonology :-o -- Deborahjay 20:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That list doesn't list things like Englishman/Englishwoman and Frenchman/Frenchwoman; what would these be called? --Spoon! 22:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Just that. Englishman/woman and Frenchman/woman. JackofOz 00:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Economic value of the United States

What is the total economic value of the United States, described as a simple balance sheet?

(December 19, 2006 js) VAv 17:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Unlike a company, a country's "value" cannot be expressed on a balance sheet. Further, any attempt to run a country as if it were a business is foolhardy, as I hope Ross Perot has learned by now. Countries simply aren't "for-profit" organizations. Loomis 21:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Another good example comes to mind: In the late '70s, "New York City" was either at or on the verge of bankruptcy. Its municipal "liabilities" basically exceeded it's "assets". But does that mean to say that NYC was absolutey worthless at that time? Loomis 22:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

If you're playing a video game against a megalomaniac billionaire intent on world domination, the value of the United States is $42,000 (oh, and I forgot to tell you that the higher the stakes, the greater the pain - just like real life) Bwithh 19:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Colin Quinn is dead?

The Misplaced Pages entry for comedian Colin Quinn says that he died yesterday, December 18. Is this true, or someone's idea of a joke? Where is more information? 66.213.33.2 17:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like vandalism or a joke to me. Thanks for the heads up; I've reverted it. --Lph 18:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Level of morality, etc. in gold rush mining towns?

What was the level of morality in 19th century gold rush mining towns, and what types of people lived there? DebateKid 18:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as a series can be a depiction of actual events have a look at Deadwood (TV series) (3 seasons). It definitely has a realistic feel to it and is an interesting depiction of justice in a lawless gold rush town. Keria 19:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! DebateKid 15:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

No offense Keria, but I think a more reliable source might be the information in the Klondike gold rush article, and some of the books and memoirs listed therein. Anchoress 16:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Concorde and B747

Was there ever any competition ("a race for aviation supremacy") between Concorde (speed) and the Boeing 747 (passenger capacity)?

Many Thanks,

/C --Chachu207 ::: Talk to me 18:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, any different makers of planes are competing against each other to sell more airplanes by producing ones with characteristics that airlines will want. So the two were competing in that sense, but I don't think this can be exactly characterized as a "race for supremacy". Rather, Boeing opted not to try to compete for speed, because they felt it was better to compete for capacity. (Boeing did begin work on a supersonic plane as well, as well, but dropped the project.) And conversely for the governments backing the Concorde. --Anonymous, December 20, 05:13 (UTC).

presumably concorde was only an option for wealthier people or those who wanted to fly on it so much they saved up a lot? --Alex.dsch 19:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

First, at the time when the Concorde development started, air travel generally was still somewhat like that. The idea that airlines might compete on price didn't really get going until the 1970s (do we have an article on this?); and then at the same time there was the oil crisis that caused fuel prices to jump and made the Concorde in particular a very expensive plane to operate. Combine all these issues with legal issues about where the plane could fly, and Concorde ended up as a survival of the old luxury-only air travel market. --Anonymous, December 20, 05:13 (UTC).

'As I was going to St Ives....'

I've read the page about this riddle/rhyme, and see it featured in a die hard film, but can anyone tell me any other films/books it featured in. I have some vague memory of it in something else (maybe not even a book or film) and it's bugging me! Thanks. --Alex.dsch 19:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the place name or the nursery rhyme itself? If you simply mean the name, what springs to mind is St Ives, an unfinished novel by Robert Louis Stevenson. There was also a movie made, I believe, based on this book. Clio the Muse 20:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As I Was Going to St Ives has everything you want to know. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really; I already checked it and it only mentions Die Hard. I was asking if anyone knew of its appearance in any other films or books. And i mean the rhyme itself.

It was in sesame street, with a purple kermit! perhaps this is where you remember it from. meltBanana 22:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Competitive advantage due to prejudice

Is there a name for financial advantages that we obtain due to the prejudices of others? (Not considering if we hold this view too). Like in the hypothetical case that a racist buys from our company because we are Caucasian (although we are not racists). Or in the hypothetical case that we have grey hair and are perceived as more intelligent. Mr.K. 21:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You may wish to review Economic rent. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There are approximation to the idea in this article, but not exactly what I want. Mr.K. 21:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Blockbusting is one way to profit from prejudice. StuRat 18:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Economists would consider racist attitudes a type of noise. JChap2007 04:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

See more in the language reference desk.

See white privilege and related concepts, e,g. male privilege.--Pharos 05:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Cost of Pokemon

In the TV show, how much do the pokemon cost? If I capture a Pokemon from the wild, train it, and sell it, how much could I sell it for? What if I make one myself?

I'm asking this because, for a school assignment, my group invented a crime in which a person stole a Pokemon that another person had made. The other members of my group made this crime sound serious, not like stealing a 90-cent chocolate bar. --Bowlhover 21:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I recall, people catch the Pokémon, then keep them or trade them for others, rather than simply buying them. Thus the value attached (which would not be expressed as money) would vary with how hard it was to obtain the Pokémon, or (to be cynical) how much merchandising could be made about it in the real world. —Daniel (‽) 22:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can trade Poker Chips for Pokémon at gaming corner. Porygon costs 9999 poker chips and Eevee costs 6666, and you can get 50 chips for 1000 credits (roughly equivalent in value to the Yen), so the Porygon would cost 200,000 Credits, or 1,694 US Dollars, while Eevee would cost 134,000 Credits, or 1,135 Dollars. Hope that helps. Laïka 14:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In-game money would not be worth as much as real currency. --Proficient 04:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, a can of lemonade costs 100 credits, which, assuming a credit = yen, ammounts to $0.84, a pretty close approximation of the real world cost. For the most part, Pokéworld prices work quite as well if you just assume that they are yen. Laïka 11:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to recall a couple of movies

There are a couple of movies from my childhood that are partially burned into my memory, but I have no clue what the movies are. Below are the two movies I can't remember, with the scenes that I do remember:

• This movie involved some kind of mass emigration in which the parents and a child become separated. Might've been in Europe during wartime. The movie was focused on the child. The child is in some kind of internment camp and befriends a black man. I distinctly remember a guard forcing the black man to lick mud from the guard's boot in front of the child. Later, maybe a few years, the child reunites with his parents. Someone suggested to me that it might be Empire of the Sun, but looking at Misplaced Pages's plot summary, it doesn't seem similar.
• The second movie involves two brothers who are apart by a few years in age. I think that they were runaways or possibly orphans. I recall a dramatic scene in which they somehow acquire a horse and both ride it freely. The film might've taken place in a hilly European area. That's all I can remember about it.

Any help in recognizing either film would be greatly appreciated! —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

A wild guess on the second film is The Brothers Lionheart, although the description is too vague... 惑乱 分からん 22:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I looked it up, and I don't recall any fantasy elements. I think it was a pretty straightforward drama, nothing supernatural or fantastical about it. Was boring for me to watch as a kid, actually. But I'd like to see what bored me back then; maybe I'd enjoy it now. :) —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• To seize this opportunity, I also want to ask about a movie. It is about a coup in a Latin American country. The film is older than 20 years. Some guys in the film work as male escort to gather money to attack the government. At the beginning their families get killed...Some idea?Mr.K. 22:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like Kiss of the Spider Woman. JackofOz 00:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• I've personally been stuck trying to find these 2 old vampire movie that I watched as a child. I can usually remember enough to find a movie, but this as slipped me for a long time. The most I can remember of the first one is that it involves a father and son, and they move to a new town that inhabited by vampires. I remember them feeding on cows as a way of life, and then later kidnapping the boy to try and turn him and his father. The second one was about a man I believe was lost, and stumbled upon these two female vampires (not a porn), and they would drain enough of his blood every night so that he wouldn't have the strength to leave their castle. Anyone.. anyone.. Bueller? Much thanks ahead of time. Bignole 13:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Man, Bignole, steal my thunder, why dontcha? :) Is the second film a Dracula film? I remember that scene in Bram Stoker's Dracula where Keanu Reeves's character gets the treatment that you mentioned. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't my intention, I noticed this place and didn't want to start a new thread since you already had some responses. I did try and find yours. It wasn't a Dracula film, I'm pretty sure there wasn't a "male" vampire in the film. The second is an older movie, before the 90s; my memory wants to tell me it had the feel of a film from the 70s. Bignole 15:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: the IMDb message boards are probably the best place to ask this sort of question. zafiroblue05 | Talk 18:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

new birth of freedom

how valid is it that the lives that were lost in the American civil war to insure a new birth of freedom were in vain because by 1880 the south had defeated the weak northern efforts in behalf of the freedmen and reenslaved the blacks. what facts make this true? what facts make it false? --Kittycat rox 23:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your question rests on the assumption that the American Civil War was only about slavery - which it was not. (It also assumes that the failure of Reconstruction meant the effective re-enslavement of blacks; while it is undoubtedly true that their status remained inferior to that of whites for almost another 100 years, they still remained legally free.) I think you need to take a broader look at the reasons the War was fought, and what the end result was in all those areas. (This question also reminds of Zhou Enlai's response when he was asked to assess the impact of the French Revolution: "It is too soon to tell." - Eron 00:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

December 20

Polish-Soviet War 1939

Why didn't the allies declare war on the USSR when the red army invaded Poland? --Fatdudewhosproud 00:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fatdudewhosproud (talk • contribs) 00:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

It was largely a question of political and strategic realities. To go to war with Germany was one thing; to go to war with Germany and the Soviet Union quite another. By the time Stalin invaded eastern Poland on 17 September 1939, the British and French guarantee of Poland's territorial integrity was no longer valid, providing, I suppose, an excuse for inaction, if any such excuse were ever needed. It might have been very awkward for the western allies if Hitler and Stalin had acted at the same time; but the Russians justified their invasion by claiming that the Polish state had ceased to be a viable political entity, and that their action was intended to 'protect' Ukranians and Belarusians living in eastern Poland. On this whole question have a read over the page on the Soviet Invasion of Poland Clio the Muse 00:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It would have been a pointless exercise, a hollow gesture. There wasn't much they could have done. There was no way to send troops (even if they had any to spare) to defend Poland. Clarityfiend 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Some do consider it a betrayal on the part of the allies. Not being able to send troops is one thing but turning your back and appeasement is another. For Your Freedom and Ours is an interesting account from that perspective. Vespine 23:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The British expressed their views by being strongly pro-Finnish in the Soviet-Finnish war which soon folllowed... AnonMoos 01:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What fallacy is this?

I was reading something and came across this line: "there is never any excess in virtue, inasmuch as it is no longer a virtue if it is in excess."

This really does not feel right but I can't put my finger on how, specifically, it is wrong. Is it just equivocation? (Where in one sense it's referring to some deed or another that is often defined as "virtuous," which can be done in excess, and in another sense it's referring to the concept of virtue, which inherently precludes excess). I'm running in circles here! --Clngre 01:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like sophistry to me! Clio the Muse 01:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

To me, this seems to just be a very complicated way of expressing a the simple idea that "there's no such thing as having too much of a virtue because having too much of something makes it no longer a virtue" (so like being too honest makes the honesty no longer a good/desired thing). Why did you think it was a fallacy to begin with? --`/aksha 01:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

"Those who say, there is never any excess in virtue, forasmuch as it is not virtue when it once becomes excess, only play upon words..."—Michel de Montaigne. EricR 01:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It just seems so fitting-and ironic-that Montaigne, a Frenchman, penned this observation, when we consider that it was France that proved there was indeed excess in virtue Clio the Muse 01:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like a fallacy to me, it just seems out of date. I think that sentiment would have been much more understandable in a more religious era, when overdoing a virtue would have been looked upon as prideful or self-righteous. For instance, in our world we might look at refusing sweets as a virtue, and refusing more sweets would make someone more virtuous. But in a more religious context, not overdoing sweets would be a virtue, but refusing your mother's sweets would be sanctimonious and dishonourable. Anchoress 01:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Whenever an antique quotation strikes you as silly, it's best to consider what the societal fabric was like at the time. Most quotes simply don't work well in the 21st century, but it is not the fault of their authors.

Also, Montaigne was the fellow who opined 'What do I know?' -- which endears him to me even if he did write a few suspect quips.Vranak 03:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually now that I think of it, it fits with some Eastern philosophies too; I've heard from a Buddhist meditation teacher and a Yoga teacher that even if you're a vegetarian, you should always eat what's put in front of you when you're a guest at someone's house, because refusing hospitality generates more karma than eating meat does. Anchoress 02:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

aksha, I'm not really sure if it is a fallacy or not, it just really "feels" wrong, it feels like, as Montaigne said (that's where I read it), a play on words that isn't very logical but asserts something through some kind of semantic backdoor. I don't know, it just doesn't seem right.
The assertion is that 'virtue cannot be done in excess,' is it not? In one sense (there are things that we call virtuous that can be done in excess (giving to charity is virtuous, but one can give too much and starve themselves)) it seems very possible that "virtue could be done in excess," but in another sense (by definition something being virtuous, if it indeed is virtuous, means it couldn't be "in excess") it isn't possible. It seems to me like just an apparent, but not real, contradiction in theory and practice. In theory (the definition of virtue) it can't be, but in practice (acts of virtue) it can be. Both ideas are true in themselves, but with that sentence the speaker seems to also be kind of negating the first sense with the second, which doesn't seem right.
I really don't know and am just confused, there are too many layers to this.--Clngre 02:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Or could you just say that that first sense I proposed actually isn't true because the idea of virtue rightly applied to the act of charity already means that its done in the right proportions, and that it wouldn't be virtue in the first place, even if it was "giving to charity," if it was excessive? That would make sense, it seems. So the problem has been that I was acting like anything that anyone calls virtue is actually virtue, which isn't true, it could be misnamed. Right? --Clngre 02:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

But, then again, do we or need we really arbitrate if something is rightly or wrong used to know that it is used and refers to something? I could refer to a cat with the word "pig" but, on one level, I'd be right to refer to a pig as being a furry animal with paws and whiskers, would I not? Similarly, if simply "giving to charity" is what people call virtue, then, right or wrong, that's kind of what the word "virtue" comes to refer to and that can be done in excess, so "virtue" can be done in excess? Wait.... what?

By this logic, though, anything can be said to be anything. We must hold ourselves to a common definition, right? That's the only practical and reasonable thing to do.

I'm doing this to myself, aren't I? This is all actually very simple and clear and I'm just digging myself a fine hole, am I not? I should probably sleep on this. --Clngre 02:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Eureka! I've got it now! It's simply circular logic!--Clngre 02:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd imagine that the writer was just trying to say that virtue/virtuous behaviour includes a level of restraint eg temperance or moderation.87.102.4.227 11:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If I have correctly translated this into standard claims, it should look like,

No Virtues are Virtues in excess.

Therefore, All Virtues in excess are not Virtues.

Unless I am missing a claim, I don't think this would be a syllogism as it stands. I could rewrite the argument as such,

No Virtue is a Virtue in excess

Virtue A is a Virtue in excess.

Therefore, Virtue A is not a Virute.

This is argueing a contradiction of definition, which appears to be most closely related to the statement quoted, and is logically valid. We could also construct a truth table. Virtue A is a Virtue if and only if Virtue A is not in excess.

P = Virute A is a virute

Q = Virute A is in excess

P -> ~Q

P | Q | ~Q | P -> ~Q

T | T | F | T

T | F | T | T

F | T | F | T

F | F | T | T

This like the previous would be true. Again, I may have misconstructed the above arguments, but it would seem that from these two perspectives, the statement is logically sound if the middle term is added, namely the "Virute A is" statement. Disregarding the eloquent language, it may in fact be valid. Without the middle term it is technically not an argument in the structure of a syllogism. I think that the truth table is more closely related to the statement, and that it was not originally intended to be a syllogism by it's author. I like the way the statement is written from an aesthetic point of view, and while I welcome anyone who can correct my logic here, I secretly hope that it is in fact logically valid. ~~Dmarney

ARGENTINA OPINION ON NORTH KOREA

What is Argentina's opinion on the current weapon problem in North korea? have they done anything about it? Thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.134.73.15 (talk) 02:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

This might be a good start.--Clngre 02:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks! anyone else?

Since Argentina is not itself threatened by North Korea's weapons, it has little to gain by getting too deeply involved in this dispute. Marco polo 14:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Staten Island

Why is Staten Island in New York, when a glance at the map makes it look like it should be part of New Jersey? I found the original grant of New Jersey, which included "all that tract of land adjacent to New England, and lying and being to the westward of Long Island, and Manhitas Island and bounded on the east part by the main sea, and part by Hudson's river... ." That would seem to include Staten Island, wouldn't it? -- Mwalcoff 05:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

At the time of the release mentioned in the indenture (which itself is dated 24 June 1664), Staaten Eylant was part of the New Netherland colony of the Dutch Republic. Although Charles II had resolved (as of March of 1664) to annex New Netherland, hostilities had not yet started. At the Treaty of Breda, when the New Netherland colony was ceded to England, most of it (including Staten Island) went to the the new Province of New York, and the rest to New Jersey. Why it was not granted then to New Jersey I don't know, but one can speculate that a possible argument may have been the existing close ties between the Dutch settlements Nieuw Dorp on Staten Island, Nieuw Amsterdam on Manhattan, and Breukelen on Long Island. Furthermore, James, Duke of York, the proprietor of the New York colony, was a powerful person and may have argued that his earlier release of course did not include property that was not his to give away.

Tenor clarinet?

I'm a clarinet player and ashamed I don't know this =/. The standard B-flat clarinet is considered a soprano clarinet, you have an E-flat alto clarinet, and a bass clarinet. Are there any types of clarinets that can be considered a tenor clarinet? Thanks! -Kevin 05:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a Basset horn, which sounds down to the F a major sixth below the lowest note of the B-flat standard clarinet. (Richard Strauss used it in Elektra and Die Frau ohne Schatten). Other than that I can't think of anything in that range. Antandrus (talk) 05:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Another way to look at it is that the members of the family are misnamed, at least if we are strict about keeping bass and alto an octave apart, and tenor and soprano an octave apart. The members of the family are:

1. E-flat clarinet (high) (length 19 inches) (really could be "soprano" member of the family)
2. B-flat clarinet (standard) (length 26.25 inches) (really could be "alto" member of the family)
3. E-flat alto clarinet (length 38 inches) (really could be "tenor" member of the family)
4. B-flat bass clarinet (length 55 inches) (really could be "bass" member of the family) Antandrus (talk) 05:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that was amazingly fast. Thanks a bunch!-Kevin 06:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

mozart wrote his 'clarinet' concerto for the bassett horn - and it sounds amazing when played on it instead of modern clarinet. i recommend eric hoeprich's recording(s?). he's incredible! Coolsnak3 20:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Aniara

Does any one know where I can get a recording of the opera Aniara by Karl-Birger Blomdahl? Thanks! S.dedalus 07:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

SwedishMusicShop.com. Anchoress 08:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Re. "Goodbye, Mr. Chips"

Hi, I am a Chinese, I am reading this book.

I can't figure out the sentence below:

Brookfield was playing Barnhurst, and one of the Barnhurst boys......

Please kindly tell me, what is Barnhurst, what kind of game it is. I tried to find it on internet but in vain.

Thank you in advance for your kindness. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.60.242.186 (talk) 08:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Brookfield was one school team playing the other team, Barnhurst school. So Barnhurst is a school rather than a game. They were probably enjoying a game of rugby union, or maybe cricket --Steve _(Slf67) 08:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot.

In my opinion, it could be any sport, or maybe a team not attatched to a school.martianlostinspace 17:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it might be intentionally vague, if the author felt that specifying a particular sport would make the story "less universal". StuRat 17:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the whole sentence is: "Brookfield was playing Barnhurst, and one of the Barnhurst boys, a chubby little fellow, made a brilliant century." I think we can say cricket. Rmhermen 21:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is cricket, old boy. And I cannot imagine a story less 'universal', and more English, than Goodbye, Mr. Chips. Clio the Muse 00:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

One small additional point to help with your future reading. A word like 'Barnhurst', beginning with an upper case letter in mid-sentence, indicates a proper noun, used only for names, place-names and the like. A game, like rugby or cricket, would always be in the lower case, unless, of course, it is placed at the beginning of a sentence. Clio the Muse 02:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

However, some people, particularly in Britain, treat the names of games as proper names. Instead of bridge, they play Bridge. And commercial games normally have names that are trademarked and therefore capitalized. So the reading that Barnhurst is a game is actually quite possible, although wrong. --Anonymous, December 21, 2006, 08:44 (UTC).

That is indeed a consideration. I was forgetting Monopoly and the like! In the context of the point in question, though, the reference to 'the Barhurst boys' would indicate that a place is meant. Clio the Muse 08:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't Badminton always capitalized? User:Zoe|(talk) 16:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference

Hello, I have recently added some refereces to the article on Robert A. Pape. A message occurs: this article or section does not cite its references or sources. How do I make it right?

The message is there becuase of sections like this "Since 1999, he has taught at the University of Chicago, where he is now tenured. " - It means that someone thinks the fact that he is at the university of chicago needs a reference to prove it.

So it needs a link at this point in the text (maybe to university of chicago teaching staff) as a reference. If you think it is asking for citations for things that are common knowledge you should bring it up on the article talk page. When all instances of have gone you can remove the template labelled 'unreferenced' at the top of the page.

You might find Misplaced Pages:Citing sources useful as well as Misplaced Pages talk:Footnotes/Mixed citations and footnotes which shows you how to do it (look at the code using 'edit this page')87.102.4.227 11:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Film identification

Moved to WP:RD/P - 131.211.210.10 09:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Russian philosophers

Are there any (relatively well known) russian philosophers? Are there any russian philosophers whose works are not well known outside russia?? (excluding Albert Chernenko)87.102.4.227 14:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, ignore the first part - was looking in Lists of philosophers#Lists of philosophers by ethnicity, language, nationality, religion, or region: which doesn't have a link.87.102.4.227 15:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There were quite a few political philosophers, like Lenin and Trotsky, dealing with things like the rights of man, until Stalin took control and made the Soviet Union into a brutal dictatorship. StuRat 17:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone who made quite an impact in the 80's (after his death in 1975) and is still read a lot in cultural studies is Mikhail Bakhtin, I can personally recommend "Rabelais and His World: carnival and grotesque". Whether you classify him as a cultural commentator or a philosopher is a whole (uninteresting?) debate. Keria 17:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, thanks for that - unfortunately I haven't read Gargantua and Pantagruel yet, so this will have to wait. He seems more of a 'critic/analyst' than the type of philosopher I was looking for. Thanks anyway.87.102.4.227 19:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The page on Russian philosophy has a fairly comprehensive list, though I admit most are probably little known outside Russia, and others, most notably Fydor Dostoyevsky and Lev Tolstoy, are better known for other intellectual pursuits. I think the best known, those with an national and an international reputation, would have to include Alexander Herzen and Mikhail Bakunin. Less well-known in the west, though he lived for many years outside Russia, is Ivan Ilyin, whose remains were returned to his native land last year for re-interment, along with the White general, Anton Denikin. Incidentally, on a point of information, the Soviet Union was a brutal dictatorship well before the days of Stalin, who only made a bad situation considerably worse. Stalin himself, it might be said, has every right to be included in the pantheon of Russian political philosophy, as his works, including Problems of Leninism and Dialectical and Historical Materialism, had a far greater impact than those of Leon Trotsky. Lenin's impact was in the field of political rather than pure philosophy. Materialism and Empirio-Criticism, his only book to tackle the subject head on, so to speak, is derivitive and polemical, not among the most persuasive of his works. Clio the Muse 23:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to you all, though you all seem to mention writers rather than real thinkers..! Thanks anyway.87.102.7.27 10:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Not that I'm sticking up for Lenin or Trotsky, but Stalin certainly took the idea of "brutal dictatorship" to levels unseen by his predecessors. Loomis 04:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Dostoyevsky counts as a "real thinker", by any reasonable standard. Anyone who writes a book that Nietzsche says was "written in blood" earns a whole heap of philosohpy cred, no? -GTBacchus 05:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Pro-Chinese American Communist Party 2006?

Are there any current (as of 2006) American Communist Parties that approve of the current regime in the People's Republic of China? All the Maoist parties I know of have denounced Deng Xiaoping's free market reforms and no longer consider China a communist nation. Are there any communist parties that approve of Deng Xiaoping Theory? The closest I;ve been able to find is the CPUSA. If anyone knows of any currently pro-Chinese parties outside the USA I'd be intrested in thoose as well. --Gary1234 16:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Which Azumanga Episode Am I Thinking Of?

In the anime series Azumanga Daioh, which episode features Chiyo's Dad speaking in English to a confused Osaka? (Please note that this is a serious question; I've been through my collection and I can't seem to remember which episode it is. Thanks!) --Ppk01 16:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, no need to answer. Found it myself: Episode 24, Part 4 "Study Session". --Ppk01 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

December 21

Which ghost movie

Move to Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Entertainment Nil Einne 11:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Christian Research Institute and WP:RS?

]

Specifically this is the article from their journal I want to use. ]. I'd love feedback on whether people think it meets WP:RS or not. Sethie 17:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the right place for this question. I'd suggest you ask on the talk page of the article in which you wish to use it or on the talk page of WP:RS. --Cody.Pope 22:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it couldn't be used; it seems to be fairly thoroughly researched (60+ footnotes in a 6-page document). It probably depends on how you use it. BenC7 01:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Schellenberg's use of Nostradamus in invasion of France 1940

Walter Schellenberg was a senior Nazi concerned with propaganda. In his autobiography, I think I remember him boasting how, by dropping leaflets containing falsified prophesies of Nostradamus, prior to the invasion of France, he contributed to the chaos in that country and helped the success of the Blitzkrieg. Is there any evidence for the use of Nostradamus please?

Here's the quote:

Another device which did great damage was a small and apparently innocuous pamphlet which was distributed in great numbers by our agents and also dropped from aircraft. Printed in French and described as being the prophecies of Nostradamus—many of whose prophecies were actually included—the pamphlet predicted terrifiying destruction from "flying fire machines," stressing all the time that southeastern France would be preserved from this horror. While preparing these brochures, I had never imagined that they would have such a tremendous effect. All the efforts of the civilian and military authorities to divert the great streams of refugees from attempting to reach southeastern France proved useless.Schellenberg, Walter (2000). The Labyrinth: Memoirs of Walter Schellenberg, Hitler's Chief of Counterintelligence. Translated by Louis Hagen. pp. p. 105. ISBN 0306809273. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)

Frolov, V.S. (April 1, 2006). "Encyclopedia of stratagems". Military Thought. looks independent, and may confirm that there was such a leaflet, if nothing else.EricR 19:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, does anyone know what "the ancient prophecy of the Virgin" is referring to in the linked article? Is that a mistranslation of Nostradamus (Michel de Nostredame)?EricR 01:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably the third, and even more apocalyptic, secret of Our Lady of Fatima. meltBanana 03:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nostradamus Speaks by Rolfe Boswell printed in 1941 mentions Nazi propaganda using Nostradamus. Here is a page about the prophecies during the Second World War but with the damning comment "if he is memoir is to be believed". Here is a review of another creative reading of the prophesies at the same time. meltBanana 20:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it probably amounts to a truism that all those involved in intelligence work tend to exaggerate the impact of certain stategems. I have no idea if this leaflet actually existed; but, if it did, I seriously doubt that it had the impact Schellenberg suggests. Hundreds of thousands of frightened people fleeing from Germans advancing rapidly from the north would hardly pause to make sense of Nostradamus' cryptic prophecies. If they did, I think they may have taken a slightly different message: that the Germans intended a major attack on the south-west. All refugees were going south; whether more went south-east than south-west, I really cannot say. And why hords of people going in one direction would be less disruptive than going in another is yet another imponderable. The French authorities were anxious to keep all the main highways free for obvious reasons and with limited effect. Stuka dive bombers were quite enough. What need for Nostradamus? Clio the Muse 01:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC) Thank you so much for this prompt reply.

Greek Myth? Maybe.

There is a story (myth?) about an island in ancient Greece where soldiers or warriors, through mutual or universal agreement, could visit at any time, remove their armor, and be safe from attack. It was a safe haven for R & R. Is this true, a myth, and what is the island's name?NewKidontheBlock 19:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)NewKidontheBlock

Many places were protected by asylia (inviolability) to various degrees or at various times. The only references i've found stating the protection covered the entire island give Delos and Tenos, but there is no mention of soldiers in particular.EricR 02:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting, espcially the asylia concept. Never heard of that before. As for the islands, Delos had a stronger custom about no births or deaths on the island. But Tinos may be the one someone was referring to...though it does not seem to have had the same custom as Delos. Thanks for the references...it may be a modern myth made up by someone who was trying to make a point about people needing safe havens to have open discussions...a modern approach to the age-old issue of the guy at the top being isolated. By giving it a specific name place, it was a better reference than the general asylia (asylum?) definition. NewKidontheBlock

Found some more info on Delos via Google Books:

the sanctity of the temple and island rendered it's military visitors inviolable; so Romans, Macedonians, and the allies of Eumenes mingled freely in the temple, the religion of the place supplying them a truce (Livy 44.29.2:...). Rigsby, Kent J. (1996). Asylia: Territorial Inviolability in the Hellenistic World. pp. p. 52. ISBN 0520200985. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)

EricR 18:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Which Jackie Chan movie?

Relocated to Popular Culture Reference Desk. dpotter 00:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Song artist

Who sang the song "Carmelita" in 1946?

From what I have seen Carmilita is the name of the singer. Are you not sure it is the song you are looking for? Also used in a play. I can't realy be sure though. You should try several search engines for varied resultes. Ich liebe Wiki 00:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Irak oil industry before and after 2003

I would like to know the level of difference as to which oil companies operated principally in Irak before the 2003 war and which are currently operating and which of these in both groups are linked to USA/UK or France/Rusia? Thankyou for any information. --AlexSuricata 23:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

After nationalization in 1972-73, there was basically just one oil company in Iraq, the Iraq National Oil Co. During the Iran-Iraq War (1980-88), I think there may have been a few deals done but perhaps not consummated. From 1990-2003, sanctions prevented any non-Iraq oil company from operating in Iraq, but many countries and companies (notably, none from the US or the UK) were working on deals and China, France, and Russia (or companies from there) had at least understandings by the time of the war in 2003. In 2003 sanctions were lifted, but also the occupying power (USA) declared pre-existing agreements null and void. There are many companies (both independents like ExxonMobil and Chevron, and national oil companies like those of China and Malaysia) working on deals to develop fields now. Go to this EIA web page and scroll down to "Status of Oil Development Deals with Foreign Companies" for more current info. Hope this helps, cheers Geologyguy 01:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

That´s perfect, thanks --AlexSuricata 02:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

name for a specific ethnic group

You know how in Canada and USA, they call Chinese, Japanese people "Asians" or "Orientals", Indian people "Desi".What do they call Iranians, Arabs, Turks and Afghanis, Arabs? or is it something else?

'They' do? I'm a white person from Western Canada, and I've heard the term 'Desi', but only online, never from the mouth of an actual person in my city. The people I know call people from Southeast Asia 'Asian' (if we don't know their actual country of origin), people from the Indian Subcontinent and environs 'South Asian' (with the same caveat), and people from the Middle East Middle Eastern. Anchoress 00:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Canadian, and I call Iranians, Arabs, Turks, and Afghanis, "Iranians", "Arabs", "Turks", and "Afghanis". - Eron 02:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm American, and I've never even heard the term Desi. I'd have guessed that was a Cuban, after Desi Arnaz. If you're asking for insulting terms, I'm not sure we can give those here. StuRat 02:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

From The U.S., and never heard "Desi" except in the context of "Lucy." And we try to make a distinction between Iranians and Arabs. Edison 05:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As a side note I thought it was Indians etc who use sometimes use the term 'desi' - assuming you were asking what 'white' people call them. (in the uk not canada).87.102.7.27 10:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a white person from the eastern U.S. and I can confirm what everyone else has said: Most people have never heard of the term "desi". (I have, but only online, used by people of South Asian descent.) As for Iranians, Arabs, Turks, and Afghanis, people will refer to each group using those terms, or if they don't know the exact nationality, they might use "Middle Eastern." That said, I'm afraid that I have heard slang, generally used by people with a military background and/or far-right politics, referring to Arabs or Middle Easterners, somewhat interchangeably, as "ragheads". But that offensive term is not in wide use. Marco polo 14:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In my part of the United States (the midwest, near Chicago), the nonspecific terms most frequently used are "Arab" and "Middle Eastern." Carom 20:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Iranians are usually called "Iranians", or perhaps "Persians". Turks and Afghanis are generally called "Turks" and "Afghanis". (Though I've always wondered why its perfectly polite to call a person from Afghanistan an "Afghani", yet to call a person from Pakistan a "Paki" is rather derogatory and low-brow. The same thing is happening in both cases. The "stan" suffix is simply being removed. Curious.) As for Arabs, coming from some 20 different "Arab" countries, collectively they're considered Arabs, yet individually they can be referred to based on whatever particular Arab country they're from. Loomis 13:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Tangier Ville Rail Station

I'm having trouble finding a detailed online street map of Tangier. Can anyone tell me what street the Tangier Ville station is on?

Thanks,

Adambrowne666 00:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

From memory, Gare Tangier Ville is a fairly new building, situated outside the main part of the city. I do not honestly know if it comes with a specific street name as such. Clio the Muse 00:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Google Maps doesn't give a street address either, but it appears to be close the marina. Surely the station should be signposted from most parts of town anyway? Laïka 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you - that's helpful, Laika, that it's close to the marina - though this isn't for me to navigate the town, but research for a story I'm writing - I'm gonna thank the Misplaced Pages Humanities Help Desk when it's published. Adambrowne666 22:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I've had closer look at the map; it seems to be little further inland than it appears, on the outskirts of the city. It's still not too far from the marina, but you have to cross a small river to reach it. It's not perfect, but ONCF, the Moroccan Railway Company, has posted a map of Tanger Ville station (the station is normally written without an "i"), which corresponds to roughly here on Google Maps. Laïka 16:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you know ? In Tang(i)er, every railway station and every train is painted blue. That's like that there. So spies and gurus paint themselves blue to avoid being recognized. -- DLL 18:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again, Laika, good link - interesting detail, too, Harvestman, about the blue-painted trains... does that mean even trains from other cities, from, say, Fez, get a quick paintjob while they're at Tanger Ville?Adambrowne666 23:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC) -- I should probably add that I enjoy your strangely lyrical contribs, Harvestman. Adambrowne666 02:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

My hand hurts!?!

In a counseling course I once took, the prof. mentioned refered several times to, when writing, people who press down really hard, grip tight, etc. However, the course being at 755am, I was conscious, but thats about it. So I googled it and I cant find any neurosis, disorder etc. refering to that being a symptom. So, anyone wanna find out?

Thanks!!!72.70.28.190 00:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)moe.ron

I just realized that people who answer these questions are prolly on holiday. Since most I would ASSume are in college72.70.28.190 00:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)moe.ron

Can you clarify what you mean? BenC7 01:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarify huh? hmmm. Well he was talking about when writing with a pencil on paper. While writing, rather than keeping the hand loose, the writing was down bearing down on the paper. I guess just keeping the hand tense, gripping the pencil tightly, and again writing while pushing hard down on the pencil.72.70.28.190 02:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)moe.ron

Check out Writer's cramp. - Eron 02:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The science reference desk may be more helpful, although no reference desk gives medical advice. However you might also want to check out Repetitive strain injury Nil Einne 11:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thse are all things angry people will do. Maybe your prof. was talking about anger. What class was this?  --Lambiam 23:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

FA Premier League

What team, if any, do most people from Ireland support in the FA Premier League. Pretty subjective and difficult to get a census I would imagine. But I was thinking there was a team that was supported more than another.

Lots of Irish people seem to support Liverpool - i suppose if you get the ferry over it's the nearest Premiership side. --194.176.105.40 09:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

There's also a lot of affinity for Manchester United in Northern Ireland. I think this predates the immortal George Best, but his contributions for club and country have probably helped this considerably. --Dweller 11:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

diagrams or maps of egyptian pyramids (inside showing chamber locations)

i an looking to find a picture of a diagram of what a egyptian pyramid should look inside with all it's chambers

A very schematic diagram of the Great Pyramid and some inside photographs can be found at Ancient Egypt Online. A clearer diagram is at the pyramid pages of World Book. Note that other pyramids are much simpler.  --Lambiam 06:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Checking surname for Sept or Clan affiliation

What is "Barnes"? I have seen GENUKI provide a guess and tried to scour internet atlases, but have found nothing apart from Barnes Castle in East Lothian. A last name would have to be older than the castle, which was built rather late. Burnett and Campbell both seem to claim Barnes, but I confess to be certain of nothing apart from the origin of this name. Please don't redirect me to some obscure genealogy engine. I'm sure there are Scots here with the knowledge. Thanks anyways. Rhode Islander 04:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Rhode Islander. I'm not sure I can be that much help to you, as family-names, I confess, are not really my area of expertise, but from what I can gather Barnes is not a Scottish surname at all, unless it is a corruption of Burns or Barron, the latter name connected with Clan Rose. Barnes itself seems to be of English origin, an occupational name for someone who worked, well, in barns. Names were, however, sometimes derived from location, which could suggest a connection with Barnes Castle. The other possibility is that it comes from the Old English beorn and Old Norse barn, meaning 'young warrior.' The third possibility is that it is an Anglicization of the Irish O'Berán, meaning spear. Tenuous Scottish and clan connection, though-sorry! On this particular point I think it only fair to warn you that, as a former Lord Lyon KIng of Arms pointed out, Scottish clans have a habit of 'stealing' septs in the same fashion as their ancestors once stole cattle and sheep! Clio the Muse 06:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Is all this clan business, reality in anachronistic form...or just artful fancy? Rhode Islander 06:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no wish to spoil any illusions, or to upset anyone who takes this whole matter seriously, but you are right: it is an anachronism. The whole institution, quite frankly, has a far greater resonance in places firth of Scotland, particularly in North America, where the issue of 'roots' has acquired an almost religious intensity. Clans were once powerful political formations, though their structure and organisation was quite different from the popular romantic image. However, in the eighteenth century, especially after the failure of the last Jacobite Rebellion in 1746, they went into terminal decline. Clan societies were initially established in the Lowlands to allow migrants from the Highlands to preserve something of their old cultural identity. Now they tend to be about nostalgia, and that is never what it used to be. Clio the Muse 08:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Rock the Casbah

This is probably a strange question. Recently (I'd say within the last couple months), it's become very popular around here to use the phrase "Rock the Casbah" to describe any sort of sex. I know it comes from the Clash song, but was there some TV show or movie or something of the like that used it in the same way that led to its recent popularity?

Yes, Bart used it on The Simpsons as a euphemism for sex. -- Mwalcoff 07:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

That's right, in Natural Born Kissers. Laïka 10:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Leeds Castle

It says that Leeds castle became a royal palace for king Edward 1 but it doesn't say when it was built. I'm hoping someone could tell me a site that says if it was built in between the time AD 500-1500. I'm also wondering Who built the castle?, How long the construction lasted?, and Who sponsored the building?

Our article Leeds Castle states that it "dates back to 1119, though a manor house stood on the same site from the 9th century". This means it was built (or finished) in 1119. The earlier manor house was built AD 801–900. According to the Castle's web site, it was built by Robert de Crevecoeur, replacing the Saxon manor of Esledes .  --Lambiam 07:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you sooo much for your help. =)

One small fact that does not appear on the Misplaced Pages page-or the castle web site-is that it is thought to have derived its name from an original Anglo-Saxon manor belonging to one Led, Leed or Ledian, chief counsellor of Ethelbert IV, King of Kent. Clio the Muse 08:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps reflected in the name EsLedes.  --Lambiam 23:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The modern day castle looks nothing like it would have done in 1119. Henry VIII extensively worked on it. In the form it is today, it's much more a stately home than a true castle, with much of the fortification retained for aesthetics or removed/compromised for similar the same reason, or to enhance comfort. Leeds castle isn't really a castle anymore and it isn't in (or anywhere near) Leeds, although there is a small village called Leeds nearby. --Dweller 11:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

A book on castles in Great Britain distinguished between great houses and castles on the basis of whether they had a "Crenelation permit" or license from the crown. A fortified structure might be a threat to the government. No authorized crenelations for the purpose of fortification? Not a castle. Modern structures with crenelations might just have them as decorations. Edison 19:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Items found in public places

Not asking for legal advice but I'm considering legal issues here. What laws, if any, cover the situation when you find something in a public place which is unlikely to have been discarded (E.g. found on a set or along the path). Two kinds of cases especially interest me. What about if the item has no identifying marks or features? For example, a camera with no photos on it. And what about when the owner can clearly be identified. For example a wallet with ID. Welcome views from any country or jurisdiction, but please specify which one. I'm aware there are subsquent issues but I'm not interested in these. For example, using someone else's ID, credit card or whatever will come under fraud and related laws. Nil Einne 11:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This article might help: Lost, mislaid, and abandoned property. --24.147.86.187 15:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Come on, you know we have an article on everthing: Finders keepers. Rmhermen 18:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Almost everything  :-) S.dedalus 00:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The Experience Machine

I have to write an essay about Nozick's Experience Machine, as he asks it in his book Anarchy, State, and Utopia.

Is it better to plug in or not to plug in?

To plug in or not to plug in, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to enjoy your life. So defend the hedonist plug-in position. At least it's a different take.  --Lambiam 23:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Anti-kosher foods

Is there any common food item that breaks more of the kosher laws than a bacon, lettuce, and tomato with cheese sandwich? --67.185.172.158 21:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, put some shrimp on that sandwich. - AMP'd 21:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Also eat it during Passover, the bread won't be kosher then. - AMP'd 21:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know an SCBLT sub is a common food item.  --Lambiam 23:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Double bacon please. :-) | AndonicO 23:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Boil the bacon in the milk of the sow that gave birth to it . (Yuck!). Edison 00:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

In Mexico, I saw shrimp stuffed with cheese and wrapped in bacon. More commonly, a bacon cheesburger violates two laws -- three on Passover. -- Mwalcoff 01:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that the bacon could be made from tissue removed from the living pig, without killing it. Bunthorne 04:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

On the odd chance anyone's interested in a serious answer, eating certain (but not all) insects is considered the worst violation of kashrut. Loomis 04:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

What insects are those? Bhumiya (said/done) 06:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, almost all insects actually. I know that when making a salad or anything with lettuce, for example, one is required to examine the lettuce by the light to make sure there aren't any bugs in it. Those definitely aren't kosher. The reason I said "certain (but not all) insects" is because I've been told by several Rabbis that there happen to be certain grasshoppers and/or locusts that indeed are kosher. I'm not sure which ones though, so don't take this as authoritative without actually asking a real expert on kashrut.

I should also point out that it's a common misconception that pork is singled out as the "most unkosher" of meats, or that pigs are unkosher because they're "particularly" unclean animals. That's not the case at all. I believe it's based on a mistranslation ("unkosher"="unclean"? Well, sort of, but not in the "traditional" sense of "clean", just "unclean" as in "unfit for consumption"), along with the fact of course that pork is such a common meat eaten by gentiles. Many other animals are considered "unclean" for Jews to eat. Most of it is found Deuteronomy 14. To name a few: all fish and seafood without scales, horses, camels, monkeys, apes, rodents, felines, canines, certain birds such as vultures, osprays, falcons, ravens, ostriches, hawks, owls, pelicans, storks, herons...and a whole bunch more I can't remember. ALL of these are considered "unclean", or, in other words, "unfit for consumption". "Cleanliness", in the ordinary sense of the term, has little to do with it. (eg. Is a cow really any "cleaner" an animal than a horse?) Interestingly, though, according to Deut. 14:19: "And all swarming things are unclean unto you; they shall not be eaten". I'll have to ask my Rabbi next time I see him why he said certain grasshoppers and/or locusts are ok. (No worries though, I'm not in the habit of eating them!) :) Loomis 14:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Locusts mentions the kosher issue. But I wonder why you say that insect are more "un-kosher" than other proscribed items? Rmhermen 03:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It's from Leviticus 11:43 "Ye shall not make yourselves detestable with any swarming thing that swarmeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye shall be defiled thereby." In other words, not only are insects unclean, (unkosher,) but in addition, unlike other nonkosher foods, to eat insects is not only unkosher, but to do so is to "defile the body". Loomis 02:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Add some hyrax to all of that and you'll be set. --140.247.249.64 19:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. Next time I'm at McDonalds, I'll avoid the Hyrax-McNuggets. Loomis 02:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that there are 5 species of locusts that are kosher. However, they are kosher only for certain groups of Yeminite Jews that have a history of eating them (long story, most of which I don't understand). My pet hypothesis about why the locust would be kosher is that old saying; "If you can beat 'em, eat 'em". Bunthorne 03:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Questions about Palestinian elections system

I read Palestinian legislative election, 2006 but I have some questions :

1. I know there haven't been elections since 1996, how long can they go without elections (when there aren't conflicts?) Four years?

2. "The second ballot is for the voter's local constituency. The voter can cast up to as many votes for individual candidates as there are seats in his or her constituency. Votes are unweighted, and top-vote getters are elected to the PLC. For example, a voter in the Nablus district could cast up to six votes; the six candidates with the highest vote totals are elected." So they get a second ballot. This ballot is not attached to the first one right? I mean, when the voter drops them in the box, they are disconnected, right?

3. Considering the Nablus example again, can the voter vote for four candidates from four different parties?

4. What do they mean when they say Hamas got 44.5% of all votes? There is a first and second ballot.. where did they get that number?

5. Can a politician be a candidate on both the first and second ballot? If so, what do they do when this means a politician is elected twice???

Thank you very much,Evilbu 22:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be under the impression that the PA is actually an organization governed by the rule of law. For example, as to your first question: "how long can they go without elections (when there aren't conflicts?) Four years?" The sad truth of the matter is that they can go on as long as they please. As an example, Yasser Arafat was elected president on July 5, 1994 for a five year term, pursuant to Article 52 of the 1994 Constitution of Palestine, or if you prefer, pursuant to Article 70 of the 1995 Constitution of Palestine. Yet July 5, 1999 came and went with no presidential election whatsoever. Of course it might be understandable that during times of severe crisis elections might have to be postponed. Yet keep in mind that in July 1999 there was no such crisis. In fact, by July 2000, Arafat and then Israeli PM Ehud Barak were on such good terms that they actually got into that cutsy friendly jostle, each one insisting that the other should have the honour of entering Bill Clinton's cabin at Camp David first. Needless to say, Arafat's term as president essentially ended on the day he died. Loomis 15:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

But in theory parliaments should be re-elected every four years, and presidential elections are to held every four years? So wasn't there a massive Hamas uprising in July 1999 when Arafat didn't organise elections? Or were there? Do you happen to know the answer to my other questions? Thanks.Evilbu 19:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you say that in theory parliaments and presidential elections should be held every 4 years. There are many examples in many true democracies where the term is for something other than "4 years". For example in France, presidential elections are held, and the presidential term lasts, 7 years. In Canada, our Constitution requires Parliament to hold a general election at least every 5 years. Of course the government rarely waits to the last minute, and, generally speaking, chooses to hold an election after about 4 years, at a time they feel most confident about being reelected. In the US, all House members serve for a term of 2 years, and Senators for 6. There's simply no special rule that democratic elections are invariably meant to be held every 4 years. As for the rest of your questions, I'm sorry but I really have no clue. I see no purpose in studying the intricacies of rules that are so casually ignored, and as such have absolutely no realistic significance. Loomis 01:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well actually I was looking for confirmation. Apart from that, what I really wanted to know was where exactly they get their number when they say "Hamas has gained more support than Fatah".Thanks,Evilbu 20:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

December 22

People of Waterloo?

I am wondering what the demonym for people living in Waterloo, specifically Waterloo, Ontario is. I live there but have no idea, thanks!

--ManicLogic 02:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"Waterlooan" is the one I remember learning when I lived there, but Google finds no instances of it on the Kitchener-Waterloo Record's web site. It does find one instance of "Waterlooian" on the paper's site, as well as references to waterlooians.ca, so I guess "Waterlooian" is now the preferred form to the extent that there is one. --Anonymous, December 22, 03:49 (UTC)

I would have thought Waterloovian would have fit the bill. Jooler

In the original Waterloo (without, of course, suggesting that these have any currency in Canada!): in French, un Waterlootois. I couldn't find anything in Walloon (e.g. at walon.org or the Walloon Misplaced Pages) or in Dutch (de inwoners van Waterloo?). Wareh 01:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in those parts, and can't recall ever hearing one. Maybe there isn't one, and they are just plain "people from Waterloo." Does there have to be one? Can't we just lump you in with the "Kitchenerites"? Bobanny 11:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Crowd conundrum

How is it that in large events such as concerts, plays, recitals, etc. when someone starts a standing ovation or the wave, the entire crowd joins in 99% of the time without any spoken cues? Is it possibly an ESP-esque social behaviour? Crisco 1492 03:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really. Waves are usually started by a group of people that are already socially attached (such as a group of friends), so it's simpler than a bunch of strangers following a single stranger. Can't say anything about standing ovations from experience, but I'd say that if something deserves a standing ovation, people will generally know. — Kieff 03:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: standing ovations (from experience): it's an individual expression in a group setting and as such has a public, social-behavioral aspect. The "unspoken cues" component occurs in the first moments of seated applause, when individuals personally motivated to accord this acclaim will glance around (overtly or covertly) to see whether someone else validates this by standing up. This gives, as it were, the signal for others to join in -- but only those so motivated. I can't recall being present at any instance where the entire audience gave a standing ovation. -- Deborahjay 03:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

A 99%-compliance crowd phenomenon I've experienced is when audience applause at the end of a concert program changes to rhythmic clapping as a request to the performers to play an encore. This is clearly based on an auditory cue, but is also an established cultural behavior -- at least in Israel, where I encounter it regularly (and I've asked on the discussion page for Encore, whether this practice occurs in other countries). If you continue to simply applaud rather than join the clapping, you're audibly in the minority (and sound like you ain't got rhythm...). -- Deborahjay 06:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: standing ovations - if the person sitting in front of you stands up, you often can't see the stage and the performers anymore. Unless you stand up too. Skarioffszky 10:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, standing ovations are often in recognition of exceptional performances, and often, said recognition (from an audience) can be universal and instantaneous. Anchoress 14:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget peer pressure. After a certain percentage has jumped to its collective feet, you might not want to make yourself conspicuous by not standing up and clapping. Clarityfiend 18:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

True true. Thats a pretty good point, Skarioffszky. LOL at least it gives a practical explanation. Deborahjay, Anchoress and Clarity, those are good points too... Thanks people for all the help about standing ovations. However, what about doing the wave in sports events? Crisco 1492 23:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

A quick look around online finds this...

"Their analysis indicates that it takes only a few dozen fans leaping to their feet with their arms up to trigger a wave. Once started, it usually rolls in a clockwise direction at a rate of about 40 feet per second, or about 20 seats per second. They say at any given time, it is about 15 seats wide." I think that a certain amount of 'party mood' atmosphere will play a role in the development of a wave and will incorporate some form of 'group mentality' to why we take part. Obviously not everybody in the stadium takes part but there are papers online on them...search for "mexican wave dynamics" in google, that's what I did...some interesting stuff. ny156uk 22:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Mexican wave dynamics? Is there an article here? How'd it get the name "Mexican wave?" Crisco 1492 00:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

See Mexican Wave - seems to be based on an occurance in the World Cup in Mexico 1986. I added the word 'dynamics' as I thought that was a term that the search engine would find matching for scientific/research studies about the way a mexican wave works/how it is organised (i.e. the dynamics of a mexican wave). ny156uk 02:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Eurasian Pole of Inaccessibility

Google Earth shows a rather extensive building complex near the Eurasian Pole of Inaccessibility, at about 46°16′41″N 86°20′53″E / 46.278°N 86.348°E / 46.278; 86.348. Anybody know what it is? ➥the Epopt 06:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• The place is called Xazgat (I got this from NASA World Wind).--Pharos 07:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Cresh?

I keep hearing a word that sounds like cresh in the context of Christian nativity scenes (I think). What exactly does this mean? I may be mispelling it because I couldn't find it in Webster's or Wiktionary. ike9898 14:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The word is crèche; it's a French word meaning manger. - Eron 14:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"Irrepressible Sister Miriam" by Wilfrido Ma. Guerrero

i really need help in finding the script "Irrepressible Sister Miriam" by Wilfrido Ma. Guerrero. I just want to read it. I wonder if you, guys, can help me with this. thanks a lot! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.106.143.192 (talk) 16:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

I struck out here here here here here and here . Maybe consider calling public libraries, college drama departments, local and regional theaters, any organizations with whom the author's been involved, and Samuel French. Surely someone has a copy, just not online. Wolfgangus 16:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The first draft (titled "The lively nun : the naughty sister Miriam") is in the archives of the Northern Illinois University Library, OCLC 40241024.EricR 18:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, the author search at worldcat didn't seem to work correctly, the final draft was published in: Guerrero, Wilfrido Maria (1980). Guerrero : 4 latest plays. Manila: Regal. OCLC 12052758. and Guerrero, Wilfrido Maria (1990). Retribution : and eight other selected plays. Quezon City: New Day. OCLC 23901270 ISBN 9711004119.EricR 23:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking for a dance

I'm working on a poem. I'm trying to have dances representing three different types of relationships.

• Business Relationship, boss/employee
• Friendship
• Romance

For romance, they type dance is easy, if a bit cliched - a tango. For friendship, a waltz was what I was going to use. It's the first dance I'm having trouble with. I want something formal, preferrably complicated. Again, the subtext is that of a workplace keeping the two from being too close.

Any suggestions? I looked up Ballroom dancing, but the only styles listed there were tango, waltz, and foxtrot. Thanks!TrekBarnes 19:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• How bout a quadrille? And if I may say, I think that a waltz is more romantic than a tango, and a square dance or jive is way more friendly than a waltz. Anchoress 20:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Or a minuet with dancers on opposite sides of a desk? No touching there. An American Ballroom Companion 1490-1920from the Music Division, Library of Congress, may be a useful place to go digging. (I've taken the liberty to wikify your question a bit, Trek, you may wish to see how by clicking <edit>.) --Seejyb 23:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I too don't agree with the cliche sense of tango representing "romance." Other than its being danced by a (male/female) couple, it would seem more expressive of tension in their relationship, at best a sense of staying in synch? For romance, I'd favor the waltz: chronologically it's contemporary with the Romantic era in music, and the woman is practically "swept off her feet" by the man, who leads. -- Deborahjay 01:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

A tango is a dance of No No No. A rumba is a dance of Yes Yes Yes. My wife on her own came up with a minuet for the business relationship -- or, a square dance with the boss as caller. Viennese Waltz could be a model for the act of love -- especially the utter exhaustion at the end... --jpgordon 15:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

After reading jpgordon and Deborahjay's comments, and considering its allusions to dominance and submission, the Argentine tango might be a candidate for the boss/employee dance. The waltz for romance and any of the above for friendship. ---Sluzzelin 17:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for information on painter known as J. Lettwil

I have been unable to find any information on the 'net about a painter identified only as J. Lettwil. The only information I have about him is that a painting of his was purchased in the 1950's. I have been unable to verify if he is or is not of Australian origin. Is there any info on this painter available? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20 questions (talk • contribs) 20:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Customs laws in Australia

I'm an Australian currently travelling in the USA. Where can I find out about what I can bring back to Australia through customs? I found the official website pretty unhelpful about my specific questions.

• For example, I know that plant matter is restricted, but are teabags okay? Would it make a difference if the box of tea is open or sealed? What are the rules for other food items?

• Second, I am interested in a sexually explicit comic book (Alan Moore's Lost Girls). It's said to have great literary and artistic merit, if that makes any difference. But I don't want to spend the $75 if Customs is going to decide it offends the moral standards of Australia. Can anyone advise on this situation?

Thanks in advance, Grace 02:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• Is Australian Customs in the habit of opening up books sent in the mail? --jpgordon 06:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

My impression was that erotic/pornographic material showing consenting adults generally would be legal (except for certain fetishes such as urolagnia), I don't think Lost Girls would pose a problem, unless the customs are really nit-picky about copyright infringements... =S 惑乱 分からん 13:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The old post of "lost girls" available at Australian library is WRONG. It's a novel called "lost girls" but it is NOT by Alan Moore. 202.168.50.40 02:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

December 23

02 Governor's race in Wisconsin

Did Former Governor Thompson support McCallum or his brother? I am very interested in politics and government, so I asked this! Thank you, District Attorney 14:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a source, but I seem to recall that he supported McCallum. I'm not positive, though. --Maxamegalon2000 00:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

sex education

Is sex education a human right? Where? Should it be? Rugbyball 16:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a matter of opinion, but many would say yes, in that it's part of education, which they also consider to be a human right, not merely a privilege. Others might not agree, although sex education is certainly critical to control disease, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, and poverty, and only a few people are in favor of those things. StuRat 17:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

If you're asking whether this is an inalienable right for children: I don't know whether a document such as the League of Nations' Declaration of the Rights of the Child provides more than guidelines (and we don't find sex education specified among them). It might be worth checking whether subsequent bodies dealing with health, education, and welfare have made any progress in this area, and with more authority for enforcement. As far as sex education being among the mandatory elements in a curriculum of studies for public schools – these are adopted by whatever governmental authority operates those schools. -- Deborahjay 05:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Despite the Declaration of Independence and any number of papers issued by the UN, all "rights" are transient social compacts agreed upon by certain people at certain times and there are no universal human rights that transcend this definition. alteripse 16:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC) PS: A large proportion of the world thinks parents have the right to choose what information about sex to provide to their children.

I can think of several, related reasons for the latter. There are many individuals and entire communities whose belief systems maintain that sex is:

• (a) a private matter and inappropriate for discussion in public settings, and
• (b) to be practiced only by consenting adults, preferably or even exclusively restricted to a monogamous, heterosexual dyad sanctioned by local laws.

As a result, people holding such beliefs may support the control or outright prohibition of sex education in public schools. They may fear that such knowledge would promote premarital sexual activity rather than strict abstinence. This consideration is viewed with such great concern that it outweighs the possible, often grave risks such as those mentioned above by StuRat-- Deborahjay 19:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Some people believe that there are universal human rights, which is why various governments and organizations like the United Nations publish papers, make laws, and enumerate lists detailing them. As to parents having the right to choose what information to provide, what happens when this comes up against the child's right to have information? Some parents believe they have the right to physically harm their children; others believe that the child's right to safety and security overrides this. - Eron 17:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Depends on how each individual reacts to the knowledge. The american system of democracy is not the solution or panacea for this. Excessive dependence on science only eradicates the spiritual side of a human being. 15:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)~

If you eliminate both democracy and science and rely instead on religious leaders to run your country, you end up with something like the Taliban. 14:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

But what is sex education? I have never had a blowjob despite being twice married; have never indulged in gay relationships; never engaged in giving or receiving anal sex; never had bestial sex; never indulged in sado-masochistic sex etc., etc., but I know what they involve, despite never having received "formal" sex education in these practices, and only the rudimentary basics of heterosexual human sex. Does my lack of education, experience or even curiousity leave me uneducated - or merely ignorant. And is my straight monogamous sex life to be condemned as a wasted one as a result?

Comparing Taliban to introducing sex education is ridiculous. Dont try to unnecessarily compare freedom to the taliban just because freedom is a gateway to short lived happiness. Iraq is in dire straits with the same stuff of freedom. And The US doesnt take the responsibility of rectifying the mess. Education is a must even for the west. 20:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)~

Asian or Aboriginal?

Are Micronesians considered Asian, Aboriginal or something else? This is a serious question and I am not trying to offend people of either background. I ask because I know a fellow from this area and he said he is not Asian. He said there is a word for his people but he couldn’t remember it at the time. I know Taiwan and Australia still houses a population of aboriginal people. (Ghostexorcist 21:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC))

Austronesians? Skarioffszky 21:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Australian government departments that deal with indigenous affairs are always careful to make the distinction between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. So Torres Strait Islanders, at least, are not considered Aboriginal. --24.175.191.151 17:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The term "Aboriginal" doesn't refer to any specific ethnicity, rather it's used to describe an indigenous people who've been largely outpopulated by the conquest and/or settlement of others from a different place. For example, both the pre-European contact indigenous peoples of Australia as well as the Americas are equally considered "Aboriginal" peoples, yet ethnically, they're completely unrelated. In another completely unrelated part of the world, the Berbers, are, in a sense, the "Aboriginal" peoples of North Africa, before the Arab conquest. Even the British Isles can be said to have an "Aboriginal People", though the matter is quite more complex. For example, prior to the Roman conquest of (part of) Britain in the first century AD, the previous inhabitants can be described as "Aboriginal Britons". Or, if the Germanic invasions culminating in Anglo-Saxon domination in the 5th century is used as a reference point, those Britons who were conquered and overwhelmed by these Germanic peoples can be considered as the "Aboriginal" people of Britain.

Even the Aboriginal people of Australia aren't "ethnically" Aboriginal. Their true "ethnicity" can at best be determined by actually asking them, what ethnicity they consider themselves to be of. Australia being the enormous country it is, surely it's no different than Canada in that its aboriginal peoples are made up of a rather diverse variety of different "ethnicities".

Therefore, in response to the original question, the "ethnicity" of Micronesians cannot possibly be "Aboriginal", as the term "Aboriginal" doesnt refer to any specific ethnicity. What their "ethnicity" actually is, is unfortunately beyond my knowledge. Loomis 01:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity isn't something absolute. That is, a given person isn't necessarily always and only a given ethnicity. For example, an individual might be classified as "Creole" in Louisiana, where she grew up, as "black" or "African American" by white people in the United States (or by others in the United States) who don't know her or who haven't heard of Creoles. The same person would probably be classified as "American" or even "white" if she went to Africa. Ethnicity is dependent upon context. Thus, a person from Micronesia in Australia would not be considered "Aboriginal". Even though that word can mean the "original inhabitants of a place" so that everyone is in some sense aboriginal, and many Australians are aboriginal Britons, "Aboriginal", especially with a capital "A", refers in Australia to the original inhabitants of that continent only. Micronesians are not the original inhabitants of Australia, so they would not consider themselves ethnically Aboriginal. I don't know enough about ethnicity in Australia to know how they would be classified there. In the United States, the government and some non-government people would define them as "Pacific Islanders". However, within Micronesia, a Micronesian would probably be identified ethnically by his or her island of origin. The island of origin is very likely the basis for that person's self-identification. Examples of Micronesian ethnic groups are the Yapese from Yap and the Chuukese from Chuuk. Marco polo 14:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying ethnicity is absolute, I'm just saing that it's a lot more appropriate than "Aboriginal", as even up here in Canada, our indigenous peoples (note the plural) are often referred to as our "Aboriginal Peoples" (note the capital "A"). However, to be fair, the term "Aboriginal", whether in the Australian or Canadian context, is somewhat of an exonym(depite the fact that it's been commonly adopted by Aboriginal peoples themselves, just as many North American Aboriginal very often refer to themselves by that ridiculous misnomer of an exonym "Indians". But ask an "Aboriginal" from around where I live what his or her "ethnicity" is, and s/he'd very likely reply "Iroquois" or "Mohawk" or "Cree". Loomis 13:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

How to get projects from company/ or making clients?

I started a very small software company.I want to know that how any company make someone his client. I want projects for my company but I don't know where i get it? So, pls help me. I am regular reader of Digit.I don't find any one better to help me. My email: omprakashshahi@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.64.187.187 (talk) 22:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

DDB 02:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Riddle Song (Traditional)

Where did the song come from? How has it developed? I understand it is a lullaby, has it always been? I understand it predates 1700's. Are there Greek or Chinese antecedants? Not to be confused with the Walt Whitman poem.

link The Riddle Song

I gave my love a cherry that has no stone, I gave my love a chicken that has no bone, I gave my love a ring that has no end, I gave my love a baby with no crying.

How can there be a cherry that has no stone? How can there be a chicken that has no bone? How can there be a ring that has no end? How can there be a baby with no crying?

A cherry, when it's blooming, it has no stone, A chicken when it's pipping, it has no bone, A ring when it's rolling, it has no end, A baby when it's sleeping, has no crying. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ddball (talk • contribs) 00:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC).Sorry, I'd not signed it. Trying now DDB 02:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Some says it's a "Traditional Appalachian version". Your resarch may end toward places where chicken and cherries did grow and the custom to offer a ring - and have crying babies - was strong. That method was used with a strange success to place indo european origins near the Vistule. -- DLL 14:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Tracking down folk songs is incredibly difficult with so many versions and are rarely recorded. This seems even more difficult as varying riddles and dialogues are added to many songs and riddles have been popular in english literature since old english. Captain Wedderburn's Courtship and Riddles Wisely Expounded are two early printed examples but similar versions surely go back much further. I certainly don't know of greek or chinese atecedants which seem unlikely although they may have songs of a comparable style. English and Scottish Ballads by Francis James Child mentions the Old Danish Svend Vonved to which is related. meltBanana 00:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you meltbanana and dll. Muchly appreciated DDB 02:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Name this book

A friend is trying to find a book she heard about (recently, I would guess) on the BBC. She describes it as "a book (fiction) by a female author, who i think is a reporter, about algerian workers in either the US or the UK. she did some reporting on algerian workers and then decided there was enough material for a book, i guess." Not a very helpful description, I agree, but in the hope that this is a book that's recently had some publicity, can anyone identify it? Thanks · rodii · 00:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Harbor by Lorraine Adams? (Extract) Skarioffszky 10:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, dunno, but thank you! · rodii · 19:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Why does the world seem to hate Saddam Hussein?

Saddam wasn't the nicest guy.

If we replace Saddam's name with any that of any human being you've ever met or known (and also your own name and my own name) then we'll still have a true statement.

What exactly is it about him (not what anyone's saying about him or portrayals of him) that makes him so easy to hate and so hard to love? He's done wrong and for a while he thought he was right. I don't know what he's thinking right now but unless someone tells him that there's still hope and that he can still be loved, there's a chance he might change.

The above paragraph could also be about any human being you've ever met or known (and also you yourself and me myself (except if you're female then you may have to alter the pronouns but that's not a big deal)) and we'd still have a true statement.

So discuss why Saddam is so hated, or perhaps make the choice to show him that there's still hope in the world. Give him a present and hope that that'll cheer him up. Christmas is two days from now. The gifts might arrive late if you send them now, so the sooner you send him a letter/e-mail/bunch of flowers, the better. (and again, you could do this for anyone, not just Saddam) Itrade 14:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's see… A wealthy, arrogant, absolute dictator who raped & tortured people for entertainment and killed anyone who disagreed with him (by the thousands) … If you'd like to put your name to that you might be disliked too — regardless, this isn't the place for that sort of philosophical discussion.--Invisifan 16:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I asked why he was hated, not disliked. If he's done wrong, I've done wrong and (You can of course replace John's name for anyone else's in this discussion (I'll just say John because John's a very common name (John and Bob. Most common example dudes)) John's done wrong, then we could still meet up, tell each other about what our last dinner was like and then high five to eating good food. (If: All done wrong; But then: High fives and food are totally sweet)

I posted this because I believe that love ( is firstly a choice, secondly an attitude and finally one of the true messages of Christmas.

I posted this here because I didn't want to move it to the misc help desk just yet. Seeing your response ("regardless, this isn't the place for that sort of philosophical discussion.") I guess I'll move it over there and see what happens. But I'll leave it here, too, because I think Saddam deserves a chance to be loved. Itrade 07:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hate to say it, but I really dont think this is the place to be arguing about Christian ethics, and also whether or not it is right to love or hate Saddam. I say this because neither has any relevance to the article itself. Also, the way in which you gave a bible reference as if it is fact was extremely annoying and preachy, I wouldnt recommend continuing to preach about kindness, "factual" Bible stories are extremely patronising. That said, I agree with what you said to a degree, the fact that he is a murderer shouldn`t detract from the food, so long as he pays the bill. Plebmonk 07:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

To be straight with you, and not completely buying into the relevence thingy, it isn't hatred or personal between Bush and Hussein (I know you didn't bring the US pres up). The issue is not about hatred. The free Iraqi peoples are testing their new laws out, and they have to be careful. To execute Hussein immediately is justifiable. However, the legal process by which this sentence is to occur needs to be established .. for the sake of other Iraqi peoples.

Nothing we do to Hussein will chgange his mind or his acts. It doesn't matter to the heads of Syria, Iran or North Korea. But how the Iraqi government treats this person is a blueprint for how they treat others .. IMHO DDB 08:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that even as evil dictators go, Saddam was one of the most evil of recent memory. I suggest reading this Atlantic Monthly profile of him. -- Mwalcoff 09:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

You may also find that many people do not truly 'hate' Saddam' because it is difficult to have such strong feelings about somebody you do not know/have not met. Nobody is 100% pure evil and so, yes, even Saddam will have 'good' factors and has the possibility to change/atone for his sins. The way he is treated/what the courts do as a result of their actions should not be decided on whether or not he is loved or hated, but on what the justice system says. As someone once said "you go to prison as punishment, not to be punished". Whilst in prison he should be treat no different to other prisoners. Your question is a poor one because the actions of Saddam are not merely something you can say "you have done bad/everybody has done bad" - there are degrees of goodness and bad and whilst nobody is perfect, few people will have brought about a reign of terror and destruction as Saddam. Forgiving is noble and realising the error of your ways is a step on the path to redemption, but it is naive to expect people to be able to forgive such nefarious actions. ny156uk 11:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I love the equivalence of mass murder and repressive dictatorship with how just about everyone "does something wrong" in their life. Yeah, I've done things wrong, but I've never killed thousands of people just because of their political opinions. I think there are some lines which can be drawn. --24.147.86.187 15:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: lots of people have an emotional need for scapegoats, targets of hate, symbols of "evil", etc. It's entirely possible to understand Saddam Hussein as a human being, made in God's image and capable of redemption, but many people find it more gratifying to vilify him. It allows us to say things like "I've done things wrong, but I've never killed thousands," which is more satisfying than saying, "in different circumstances, I could have been that guy". Judging is easy; compassion is hard. -GTBacchus 20:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

December 24

Ande Ande Lumutan

I'm trying to find a brief overview of Ande Ande Lumutan, an Indonesian myth / traditional story. Does anyone know the story? I'm not sure about the spelling of the title though, it may be Ande Ande Lumut, Ande Ande Lumutan, Ande Ande Lumur, Ande Ande Lumuran, or the preceeding with Andai instead of Ande. Crisco 1492 10:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"...the AndheAndhe Lumut, a popular drama of East Java." Beatty, Andrew (1999). Varieties of Javanese Religion: An Anthropological Account. pp. footnote #4, p. 251. google books. EricR 04:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

This looks to be the best link found thru google—unless someone around happens to speak Javanese or Indonesian. EricR 04:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Initial Public Offering

• Take an example, Mr. X has made a company from scratch without outside financing. Now the company has grown. So Mr. X decides to take it public, so he can grow the company even more. Mr. X decides to put 20% of the stake on the Y stock exchange via the IPO. Now Mr. X will have 80% of the stake in the company. Is this 80% of his shares counted in the Outstanding Shares/Float? Can he sell all of his 80% stake on the stock exchange immediately after the IPO? Would like to see more than one answer, and if possible references. Thnx. --Judged 06:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• • How much he can sell, and when, is usually an agreement between the underwriters of the IPO and the corporation. The underwriters aren't likely to put up a lot of money if the CEO is going to sink the price of the stock as soon as it goes public! Most commonly (at least in the US), insiders agree to hold on to their stock for six months after the IPO; sometimes there are exceptions (for example, at eBay, the holding period was negotiated down to three months). There are, of course, other issues regarding the fiduciary responsibility of the directors to the other shareholders -- that's one of the reasons the CEO can't dump in a hurry. --jpgordon 18:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• So let me get this straight, does the Founder have to pay for his 80% stake after the IPO which released 20% in stock exchange, so he can sell his 80% stake after 6-12 months? --Judged 21:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• • No. Before the IPO he owns 100%. With the IPO he's essentially selling 20%, leaving him with 80%. Loomis 23:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• So does the proceeds from the 20% goes into the founders pocket, or the corporation for expansion? And he can sell the rest of 80% after a year with proceeds going directly into his pockets?--Judged 00:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• • I should probably qualify my above statement. I'm no partcular expert on how IPOs are generally conducted, (on that I defer to JP!) but I do know about corporate law. By the way you framed it, he's simply selling shares that he already owns, without any issuing of new shares by the company. If that's the case, then basically he's only selling what he already owns, and so yes, he basically gets to pocket any of the proceeds of that sale. On the other hand, if the IPO involves the company issuing new shares, then the proceeds of the sale of the new issue go to the company. Loomis 01:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• In other words, the Founder can make as many shares as he wants before the IPO? What I mean is consider the IPO is 20,000,000 shares. So before the IPO he can make 100,000,000 shares? And then after a year these 80,000,000 shares can be sold on the stock exchange?--Judged 03:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• • First off, thanks for your comments on my talk page, they were much apreciated!

• • I know it may sound complicated, and it may seem like the "founder" can basically get away with murder, but it just doesn't work that way.

• • I'm not sure why you prefer to use the term "founder" to what he really is, a "director". Yes, he may have "founded" the corporation, but once the corporation comes into existence, it is, by law, a separate "person". The status of and powers associated with the term "founder" basically end there. Afterwards, before selling any stake in the business, the only status he's acting in is a "director" and "sole shareholder" of a technically independent entity.

• • Now say, to make things as simple as possible, that the corporation is merely a "holding company" (and therefore has no growth potential, as that would only complicate matters for now) and has assets of $100 million. Before the IPO, the number of shares is irrelevant. If there exist 100 million shares, then each share only has a value of $1 ($100 million (in assets) ÷ 100 million shares = $1 per share). Since he holds all the 100 million shares, 100 millon X $1 = $100 million dollars). For argument's sake, he can have the corporation divided in a billion shares, but that wouldn't really do him any good, as the company would still only be worth what its assets are worth ($100 million) only now it would be divided up into a billion shares $100. since 1 million in assets ÷ 1 billion shares = 10¢ per share, and 1 billion shares X 10¢ = $100 million dollars. He's no better off than when he was before.

• • I hope I'm explaining myself well, all I'm trying to get across is that the number of shares (under normal circumstances) is really irrelevant, as he can just as easily divide the company up into a zillion shares, but still wouldn't have any effect of the value of his holdings.

• • All that investors look at (or should be looking at), is what's called the "market cap", which is basically the number of shares outstanding (i.e. existing, including the founders shares i.e. 100 million shares outstanding), their market value (in the example the corp. is just a holding corp., so there's no reason why the "market cap" should be any different from the market value of the assets ($100 million)), divide the two and end up with $1 per share.

• • Now that he's sold 20 million shares, at $1 a share, he's taken in $20 million for himself personally, and he's now only got 80 million shares, which at a value of $1 a share, is worth $80 million. So he's essenially no better off than before.

• Also please tell me why a company would rather sell from the treasury instead of the founder selling his own shares to raise money --Judged 12:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Now as I hope I've explained, if the founder sells shares, it doesn't really help the company at all. The company isn't getting any influx of cash. All that's really happening is that its ownership has been altered. Now assuming the corp. is looking to expand, and assuming its assets are all in real estate and it doesn't have a penny in "cash" to buy more real estate, its got a few options on the table. First, it could sell some of its real estate for cash in order to buy different real estate, but by doing that it's not really expanding, just shifting around assets. The only other two ways of raising cash is by borrowing it, o selling equity in itself. Any well managed corporation should be definitely be leveraging itself to a certain degree, that is, it should it be borrowing money from wherever, using, in this case, it's real estate as security for mortgages. It should then take the money raised and invest it in more real estate, with the aim of earning a better rate of return through renting out the real estate, plus hoping that it'll eventually increase in value, than the rate it's paying to the bank.

• • Finally though, it can raise cash by selling equity. It can, for example, issue another 100 million shares. The price the market should be willing to buy the shares at shouldn't change, everything else being equal. 100 million shares would be issued a $1 a piece, bringing in $100 million to the corp in cash, which is now worth $200 million ($100 million in assets, plus $100 million in the cash it just raised). Of course the number of shares outstanding would also double, from 100 million, to 200 million. In effect, the value of each outstanding share wouldn't change. Neither would the value of the founder's stake change, since all that's happened is that instead of owning 80% of the shares of a corp with a market cap of $100 million, now he owns 40% of a corp with a market cap of $200. Either way, his stake remains unchanged at being worth $80 million, except now the corp has an extra $100 million in cash to expand with.

• • Of course all of the above is a very simplistic model. Things practically never work this way. What happens in IPOs is that the "growth potential" of the business is figured into its market valuation, and so if investors see the corp as having the potential to explode in value, they're very often willing to pay a premium for the growth factor. This is where enormous fortunes are made. Say the corp wasn't a simple real estate holding company, but instead we were in the late '90s an it was a dot-com company. The extra 100 million shares issued would bring in waaaaaay more than an addtional $100 million dollars. Based on investors' belief that the corp is really going places, they may be willing to spend, let's say $10 a share. That would mean that there would be now be 200 million shares outstanding, each share with an inflated value of $10, making the business' putting the business' new market cap at $2billion. Now, should the founder still wish to sell a 20% of his stake, or 20 million shares, he'd now rake in 20 million shares X $10 = $200 million! And he'd still own 40% of the business (80 million of the 200 million shares outstanding, worth 80 million X $10 (on paper though, a the market price can change at a moments notice) = $800 million dollars! Of course a few months later the dot-com bubble bursts and all those fools who paid $10 a share are left with only a fraction of their investment, say $1 a share, while the founder gets to walk away with the $200 million he cashed in on, plus 80 million $1 shares, for a grand total of $280 million! Not bad eh?

• • Of course, like I said, I'm no expert on exactly each and every detail of what goes on in IPO's, but I'm fairly confident that I've got a grasp on the basics. If JP can correct a few assumptions I may have got wrong, then please JP, by all means! Loomis 16:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm no particular expert either -- I just know about stuff that happens around an IPO, having been involved with one. --jpgordon 17:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

CEO Salaries & Bonuses

• Larry Ellison who was listed with a net worth of 16 Billion by Forbes, his year 2005 compensation: salary $975,000, bonus $6,500,000, other compensation $955,100 SEC form 14A. My question lies here with does the Founder have to state in the Prospectus how much salary & bonus he is going to make after the IPO? Because surely before the IPO his company would not been able to afford that kind of salary withouth going broke? --Judged 21:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• • (The following is the law for Canadian Corporations, but I can't see it being all too different at all in the US or any other developed countries). A publicly traded corporation requires at least three directors, who in turn hire the senior officers (the CEO, CFO, COO etc. who actually "run" the business) and set their salaries. The only way someone like Ellison could get such compensation is if he were hired by the board of directors and his compensation set by them that way. Of course it's more than likely that he's one of those three (or more) directors, (one can be both a director and an officer,) and the other two could be good buddies of his so that alone wouldn't necessarily stop him from basically overpaying himself. The real legal barrier would be what JP referred to above as the "fiduciary duty" that all directors owe to the corporations they direct. They're basically bound by law to act in the best interests of the corporation, which of course, would include not overpaying employees (i.e. Ellison himself). Should a minority shareholder (an owner of any of the 20% sold at the IPO) feel that any director (i.e. Ellison) is breaching the fiduciary duty he owes the corporation by overpaying a certain employee (Ellison again), in a matter that is arguably not in the best interests of the company, any minority shareholder (i.e. any shareholder of the 20% of the company sold to the public) can file an action in what is called "oppression", and Ellison (as well as any other director that approved of it) would basically have to convince a judge that as a "director", the salary he's paying to himself as "officer" is truly "in the best interests of the company". Loomis 00:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• In other words you are saying that they dont have to mention their "Bonuses" and the Stock Options they may recive in the Prospectus?--Judged 03:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Sorry for having used the word "salary" when what I really meant was any remuneration in any form. Loomis 10:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• So why has no purchased one share of each of the public corporations and taken all the high paid CEOs to Court?--Judged 03:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• • On what grounds? That their one share has lost value because of the CEO being overpaid? Further, "overpaid" is a matter of intepretation. Look at the CEO of Goldman Sachs, who just received a bonus of $53 million dollars. That sounds really ridiculously high, until you realize that the main function of the CEO of a public company is to keep the stock price high, and Goldman's profits were up 70% and the stock price up 58% -- so it is pay for performance, and there's not a shareholder who could rightfully complain. On the other hand, when CEOs get paid big bonuses even when their stock price is in the pits -- that's when the Elliot Spitzers of the world take notice and action. --jpgordon 03:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• • JP's got it completely right. I couldn't have said it better myself. Loomis 10:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

• So Regardless of the Prospectus, the CEO/Chairman can increase their remuneration after? --Judged 16:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• • No. It's got little do to with the prospectus and all to do with the directors' fiduciary duty to continuously act in the best interest of the company. JP's point only seems to have been that if a director pays a CEO a zillion dollars, and the director increases the value of the business by 10 zillion dollars, he's obviously doing a good job and so there's nothing wrong in paying him such a ridiculous salary, as the money has apparently been very well spent. Loomis 16:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• • And the CEO or Chairman can't do much of anything unilaterally regarding compensation. That's what boards of directors are for. Boards can change the remuneration of those under their direct purview any time they want, yes. They have to give notice (a filing with the SEC), and it's subject to the scrutiny of the stockholders and the regulators, but the prospectus says what the compensation is now -- it doesn't guarantee the compensation will not change. --jpgordon 17:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• • • Sorry again. JP's right. When I said "if a director pays a CEO a zillion dollars", I should have said "if the board of directors decides on paying a CEO a zillion dollars". I mentioned before that any publicly traded company requires at least 3 directors, and assuming it works by majority rule (which I'm pretty sure it does), no single director can approve of anything on his or her own. You'd need at the very least a majority (i.e. 2 if there's only the minimum 3 on the board) to approve these things. But as I said as well, that's not much of a safeguard, as the second director can just be a good buddy of the first, and just agree with whatever he decides. The real protection against any sort of unfair practice such as overpaying a CEO is found in the law: the (US) SEC regulations and the "oppresion" remedy I mentioned above. Loomis 19:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• So the Board of Directors can make shares out of thin air after the IPO? --Judged 17:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Not knowing the exactly laws/regulations around this, if a firm issued more shares 'out of thin air' all they would be doing is diluting the value of the existing shares. Companies do do this to raise revenue (they also do buy-backs at times) and it can be successful, but investor confidence will inevitably be shaken if the firm does not take into account the effect this will have on the value of the stock/the value of existing shareholder's holdings. In simple terms I understand it to be something like this...a firm worth $10m with $1m shares makes every share worth $10, if the directors issue another 250,000 shares that makes each share now worth $8, the other 1m shares have had their value diluted by the new issuing. I suggest looking at www.economist.com, they have a good range of books available from simple finance to stock markets and all things economic. Additionally it is one of the finest newspapers (well weekly magazine) that I have read. Apologies if I got any of the above wrong, all my own understand rather than any classical training/education! ny156uk 18:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Well yes, they can create shares "out of thin air", but you've got to think about what exactly they're gonna do with these shares. If, hypothetically, the company issues shares but just holds onto them, nothing's really going on. I don't see any dilution. The corporation is just holding its own shares, and so economically speaking, they're not "outstanding". Think about if the federal reserve were to double the money supply by printing X amount of dollars, but then put in some vault somewhere and do absolutely nothing with it. So long as the cash hasn't entered general circulation and no one (including the government) is actually doing anything with it, it may as well not exist. Only if it entered into circulation would a doubling of the money supply actualy dilute the value of the dollar (all other things being equal, by half I would imagine). The same thing would hold if a corporation would create shares and then just do nothing with them. They might as just as well not exist.

• • Of course when corporations issue shares, its usually (if not always) for the purpose of raising capital. They first need to file a prospectus with all kinds of information such as what they plan to do with the extra cash, etc., and then they sell it to the public, for the going price. Here still no "dilution" is happening, at least not with respect to the value of the share. If there are 10 million outstanding shares each trading at $1, giving the company a market cap of $10 million, if they "create out of thin air" 10 million more shares and sell them for the going price of $1, they'd raise another $10 million in cash, the market cap of the company would now be $20 million, there would now be 20 million outstanding shares, and the original owners of the first 10 million shares would be unaffected value wise, since their shares haven't changed in value. Of course their stake in the business would change, for example someone owning 2% of the shares of a $10 million business would now find himself owning 1% of a $20 million dollar business. Loomis 19:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• • • Well, actually, from what I've observed, secondary offerings lower the value of the stock. So instead of owning that 2% of a $10 mill business, they original shareholders end up owning 1% of, say, a $15 mill business. --jpgordon 20:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• Final Clarification - But they can just issue these "new" shares created after the IPO to the founder after he has sold his 80% stake? From the above responses you have said yes they can issue new shares after the IPO. So would this be the same class of shares, I see usually companies have different classes, most commonly seen with the Banks, which sometimes have A-Z all classes. --Judged 21:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

• • All new offerings of stock pretty much work the same way. They're pretty much just like IPOs requiring a prospectus etc., the only difference is that they're not "Initial" Public Offerings. He can certainly buy them at the going rate if he wishes. Or perhaps, if his original bona fide remuneration included options, he can get them at a lower rate, or perhaps even for free if that's what was part of a fair compensation package. But no, he can't essentially just give himself free shares. Loomis 22:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Cultural Assessment

I have been reading your articles on culture and found no notations on cultural assessment or cultural models. I would like to call your attention to http://www.richardsonglobal.com/CSI.html. At this URL, a graphic and description of a statistically validated model of culture that I developed can be found. It describes three domains of culture and seven related subdomains that your readers can use to assist them in understanding, analyzing and comparing cultural style preferences. I hold a Doctorate and two Masters Degrees from Columbia University, am a member of MENSA, a publishd author, have trained over 30,000 people in 28 different countries and was the recipient of The Congressional Medal of Merit this year, so this is not some "Mickey Mouse" reference. If possible, I would greatly appreciate its being listed in Misplaced Pages.

Thanks

Dr. Richard A. Punzo President, Richardson Global —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.84.165.65 (talk) 19:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

Besides your credentials noted above, you've provided the URL of a commercial website with one page describing your cultural assessment model. I suggest you particularly read the guideline page explaining the Misplaced Pages "notability" criterion for new articles, along with the Frequently Asked Questions about creating a new page. If you proceed to do so, consider including a References section with academic and other publications that cite your model. Hope that helps -- Deborahjay 23:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The problem is that you've got a commercial site there, and it's not appropriate to try to use Misplaced Pages to sell things, by posting links here. If you have a web site which explains all the theory without trying to sell anything, and that theory has been published in reputable scientific journals, then we'd be glad to add a link to that site. StuRat 13:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Dec 25

New Testament

Where in the New Testament does Jesus say that His followers will be angry at Him? 71.100.6.152 05:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember reading that, but this website has a search engine for many different versions of the bible, and allows you to search only within the New Testament or only within the Gospels. Hope this helps, Dar-Ape 22:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't. I'm quite sure. BenC7 05:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if not angry maybe resist or reject or be consternated over? 71.100.6.152 15:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you got confused. Jesus did not say "His followers will be angry at Him". Jesus said that his followers will DENY ever knowing him.

that Peter, Jesus' loyal Apostle, would deny knowing Jesus three times before the break of dawn. 202.168.50.40 21:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Right, I'm aware of His statement to Peter but it seems that somewhere He also said something to the effect that His followers (including those living today) might curse Him or something to that effect becasue He came to put brother against brother, etc. but despite this that He was still the Way and the Light and we had to follow Him to be worthy of Him. Like we might not like the burden of following Him but follow Him is what we had to do. Consternated or not. 71.100.6.152 22:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here it is... Matthew 10:16-42. Found it using the link to the keyword search posted above: this website. Thanks. 71.100.6.152 22:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but where in Matthew 10:16-42 does it says that "His followers will be angry at Him"? 202.168.50.40 02:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't. Jesus never said it, or any words to that effect. The asker may have it confused with the part where he said, "You will be hated by all for my name's sake" (Mt. 10:22). BenC7 07:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That's correct. However, many use the fact that following Jesus may or will cause others to be angry at them as grounds for being angry at Jesus, not to mention any names. I guess it comes down to having a choice between being angry at others or at Jesus for the situation following Jesus puts you in. My question is really to determine whether you might have to deal with being angry at someone as the result of following Him whether these were His exact words or not and only a lay interpretation instead. Please feel free to elaborate on a more detailed answer to this question or provide references to discussions elsewhere should you know of any that exist. Thanks. Adaptron 13:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Changing date from BC to AD

How did this come to be? While I understand the meaning of BC = Before Christ and AD = After Death, it is not clear when this calendar method truly came into effect and how the world's people came to adopt it. Europe and Asia anyway as I expect the Americas - indians, Mayans and Incas were on their own calendar.

AD stands for Anno Domini, or the year of our lord. I believe that article answers your main question. As a side note, the acutal date for the birth of Christ is more likely 4 to 6 B.C.E. (see note below for definition), becuase of mistaken calcuations during the conversion process. ~~Dmarney 07:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Was it decreed by the Romans?

In a sense yes, in that the Roman empire was converted to Christianity, and that the Catholic Church, now the state religion, was responsible for the creation of the calendar system. Again reference Anno Domini. ~~:Dmarney|Dmarney 07:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly as no one can predict the future, those living in say 100 BC were not minting coins with such a date. Are BC dates therefore a more modern way of talking about history? And, what about muslims - the prophet Mohammed lived in about 600 AD. Is it not about 1400 AD for them? The Mayans predicted the end of the world in I believe 2012 or 2016 -I don't recall. Is this an interpretation based on our BC to AD calendar or were they converted to our western calender with the arrival of Christians.

Anyway, my main question is the first one. How and who was behind the resetting of the calendar to zero at AD? And, did it happen at or near that time or perhaps 10, 20 or even a 100 years later? Chiocchi 06:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC) BC

Sidenote on calader systems: Since the lasting impact of Western culture has effected the rest of the world, most dates have been converted into it's calendar system. However, out of respect for those of other religions, most scholarly systems have changed the names for these two eras to Before Common Era (BCE) and Common Era (CE). Additionally, regarding the Maya calendar, they had a much more accurate accounting of time than the western calculations, which as noted above mistakenly placed the year 0. ~~Dmarney 07:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

As the Anno Domini article says, the BC/AD system was invented by Dionysius Exiguus and popularized by Bede during the so-called Dark Ages. Before that, years were counted since the ascension of a particular emperor or consul, since the founding of Rome or, in Christian circles, since the beginning of the persecutions of Diocletian. Dionysius thought it wasn't a good idea to "honor" Diocletian in this way. So Dionysius counted years from what he thought was the date of Jesus' birth. He was off by a few years. The Islamic calendar counts years from the flight of Muhammad to Medina, while the Jewish calendar counts from the Creation. -- Mwalcoff 08:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Calendar systems are one of those standards where it really doesn't matter what the standard is, so long as everyone uses it. Unfortunately, choosing a religious method for setting up the calendar was certain to cause resentment and other competing systems from other religions. If we could choose one universally agreed to non-religious event as a starting point, say the August 23, 1883 explosion of Krakatoa, we would have had a better chance of gaining universal acceptance for one calendar. StuRat 13:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

With the Revolution, the French actually tried that, with a fully secular, more metric, decimalized calendar and method of timekeeping, with 10 days a week, 10 hours a day, 100 minutes an hour, and 100 seconds a minute. Needless to say it never caught on. Though I'm not Christian, Arabic or English, I really don't mind using the "Christian" calendar, "Arabic" numerals and the "English" language, as the use of these has pretty much become the dominant standard. Besides, our months of the year and days of the week are based on a smattering of Roman, Norse, and astronomical influences. Just look what became of that absolutely ridiculous language known as Esperanto, ridiculous because rather than have many people learn a foreign language such as a English, (I believe about half the world's population has, at the very least some working knowledge of English), adopting Esperanto would require everyone to learn a new language. So using the English language, Arabic digits, the Christian year, the Roman month and a day of the week named after the moon, the date today is Monday, December 25, 2006. Merry Christmas everyone! Loomis 00:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the problem there was that year 0 was the French Revolution, hardly a "universal" date that everyone would agree to use. Happy Festivus ! StuRat 14:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Appius Claudius Caecus

Whom is his wife? Is there a family tree of him? He built Appian Way. One of his sons is Gauis Claudius, however can not find his wife's name. --Doug Coldwell 19:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

See Appius Claudius Caecus. The article links to a Claudian family tree that does not seem functional at the moment. However, I suspect Livy does not mention his wife's name, and we have no earlier sources. alteripse 19:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Scipio Cornelius Africanus - defeated Hannibal

What relationship or connection of his family of "Cornelius" or "Scipios" is there to the "Claudius" family? Perhaps a relationship to Marcus Claudius Marcellus (c. 268-208 BC) or Appius Claudius Caecus ("the blind"; c. 340 BC-273 BC). Perhaps there is a relationship of "Claudius" to Lucius Aemilius Paullus, whom's daughter Aemilia Tertia married Scipio Africanus. -- Doug Coldwell 20:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The Claudii and the Cornelii were two of the five mighty gentes maiores patrician family clans of ancient Rome, and marriages would preferentially be between these clans. In fact, until 445 BC intermarriage between patricians and plebeians was not allowed. So the connections must be numerous.  --Lambiam 21:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

novel about black boy written before 1960

25 December 2006 I've searched and searched for this, am eager to find its title. Here are some things I remember from 40 years ago.

A black kid, age 12(?) is shot but not killed, is lying under the bar in a tavern.

Later he's inspired by Eleanor Roosevelt.

A tough gay neighborhood kid gives him a heroin pill.

Toward the end of the novel he dates a girl who he has sex with against her wishes, what we'd call date rape now.

Those are the details I remember. Would be very grateful if anyone--probably 50 or older?--remembers this book.

Many thanks,

Peter Moore--216.183.156.167 22:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Appius Claudius Caecus ("the blind"; c. 340 BC-273 BC) relationship to Philip II

What relationship or any kind of a "connection" did Appius Claudius Caecus have to do with Philip II of Macedon (father of Alexander the Great)? This could be perhaps a "connection" where Ptolemy I Soter is related to the Claudius family via Arsinoe of Macedonia; or perhaps through the descendants of Ptolemy I Soter (Ptolemy Keraunos or Ptolemy II Philadelphus). Stateira (daughter of Darius III) married Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great also had other wives. Are any of these wife's families in any way related to Appius Claudius Caecus or the Claudius family in that time period? I believe there to be a relationship and "connection" of Philip II of Macedon to Appius Claudius Caecus. Do you know of such relationship? Perhaps there is a "relationship" of the "Cornelius" or "Scipio" families to Philip II of Macedon??? That then would make the "connection" to Appius Claudius Caecus and the Claudius family. Maybe through Lucius Aemilius Paullus??? --Doug Coldwell 22:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The bunch of peasants huddling on some hills in Latium, imagining themselves nobility, may have been below what would register on the radar (forgive the anachronism) of the mighty conqueror Kings of Macedon, rulers over the epitome of civilization, Greece, and subjugating the next jewel in the crown of civilization, the great Persian Empire.  --Lambiam 23:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I am an old retiree and I do believe you lost me on that one. Do you mean to say that there IS IN FACT a connection or "relationship" of Philip II of Macedon to Appius Claudius Caecus? I have reason to believe there is an ACTUAL "relationship" (not necessarily a direct "blood line") between these two. Perhaps a descendent of Philip's married into the Claudius family about this time or the "Cornelius" family. Do you know of such relationship? --Doug Coldwell 00:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried to say that, at the time of Philip and Alexander, Rome was little more than an insignificant village. The gens Cornelius as being considered important runs roughly from the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD, almost the entire lifespan of the Roman Republic and (Western) Roman Empire. Of course it is possible that at the height of the Roman Empire, several centuries later, some descendant of some member of the Argead dynasty married someone from one of the gentes Claudius or Cornelius, but I do not actually know of such an occurrence. The murder of Heracles in 309 BC ended the Argead line, after which being a descendant of Philip lost its strong political significance. This was all before Rome obtained any significant geopolitical stature. Known later descendants of Philip are royalty, which the Cornelii and Claudii were not. That does not make intermarriage impossible, but definitely less likely. You can follow the tree of descendants of Philip II, in as far as it is known, from this link.  --Lambiam 02:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that was very useful. The family tree on Philip II is an excellent clue I will follow up on. Here are my thoughts: Olympias was the mother of Alexander the Great. She also was the brother of Alexander I of Epirus. He was engaged in the Second Samnite War. Noticed that he made a treaty with the Romans in 332 BC while in Taras (where the Appian Way went to). Later he was killed on the banks of the Acheron. He left behind a daughter named Cadmea. My guess is that Cadmea was born somewhere around 340 BC (about the time as Appius Claudius Caecus). They were about the same age. http://en.wikipedia.org/Alexander_I_of_Epirus http://en.wikipedia.org/Second_Samnite_War

I am thinking it is VERY possible that Cadmea is the wife of Appius Claudius Caecus. She is placed in the same area and same time period as where Appius Claudius Caecus put the Appian Way, Taras. Since I also can NOT get access to the Claudius familt tree to verify his wife, this is speculation. Does it sound possible to you? --Doug Coldwell 13:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd think that while fighting a military campaign in Latium King Alex would have left his daughter safely back at home in Epirus, under the care of her mother, but even if he had taken her along... Appius Claudius Caecus was only about 8 years old at the time, and another 20 years were to pass before he had the Appian Way built. So while not strictly impossible, it does not appear particularly plausible to me.  --Lambiam 14:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Your answer sounds correct to me and MORE logical. I will have to do more research on this to make a "connections" between the family lineage of Macedonian King Philip II and Appius Claudius Caecus. I am PRETTY sure there is a "relationship", however have not at this point made that connection. Notice that the Appian Way went to Taras. Would you say this is close in spelling and sounds similar as "Tharsus" or "Tarsus". Both start with the same letter and end with the same letter. Many Roman roads were constructed in a straight line for fast movement of troops. The Appian Way was the "Queen" of the Roman roads. Would it be fair then to be able to call it the "Straight Street" that went to Taras? --Doug Coldwell 15:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Free Trade of Human Organs

I was wondering where I could find information about the free trade of human organs, preferably in a Pros vs. Cons structure, or either one of them. I found nothing vaguely similar in Misplaced Pages, nor serious in-depth material in other sites.

If someone could help me with this I would be very grateful. 89.138.28.251 22:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure your question is confined to the "free" trade in redundant human organs? If it's "free", I think the better term would be donation rather than trade. If you're looking for arguments against it, I'm not surprised that you couldn't come up with much, as, aside from matters of religious belief, I wouldn't expect for any secular arguments being made against the donation of redundant organs.

However, if by "free trade" you mean the "freedom" to sell one's organs for money, that would be a whole different debate. Loomis 23:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Organ transplant talks about it. Clarityfiend 02:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarity's source is a good one. In particular, this section. It even povides a couple of sources, one apparently strongly in favour of it. Loomis 12:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some posts from the Freakonomics blog. --Kjoonlee 05:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean free trade - not as in trading for free but the freedom of trading (Like free trade in economy). Does anyone know where I can find information and arguments for and against this? --89.138.28.251 15:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Francesco Petrarch - De Viris Illustribus

I believe Petrarch studied the ancient historians Livy and Polybius. Did Petrarch also study the ancient history of Plutarch. Was his in Greek ONLY? Did Petrarch know Greek? Could Petrarch have had Plutarch's work translated into Latin or Italian so he could have read them. An example would be Parallel Lives, since apparently Petrarch wrote on some of the same people in his own De Viris Illustribus. --Doug Coldwell 23:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a definitive answer, but I can say that in Petrarch's days there was little interest in and knowledge of ancient Greek civilization, which arose a century later with the High Renaissance. Quite possibly Petrarch was unaware of the existence of Parallel Lives, a work that even today is only known fragmentarily. The identical title suggests that he knew Suetonius' work.  --Lambiam 00:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for your very good answer. You seem to be extremely knowledgable along these lines. I did NOT know of Suetonius, however I do know Petrarch has at least two sets of De Viris Illustribus. These lists of Lives are presently in Latin only. One set starts with Romulus, the FIRST Roman ruler. Another set (Liber II) starts with the FIRST person of the Bible, Adam. He worked with his friend Giovanni Boccaccio on his Lives "On Famous Women", a list of 106 short biographies. Famous Women starts with the FIRST woman of the Bible, Eve. I do believe there is a pattern here of FIRSTS. I believe you are correct that Petrarch was NOT aware of Plutarch "Parallel Lives", however obtained his ancient history information from the great historians Livy and Polybius (whom apparently wrote in Latin, not Greek) --Doug Coldwell 00:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Petrarch wrote a famous poem and book called "Africa". It is of a great commander for Italy called Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus. It is his greatest work and the one he was most proud of. On his list in Latin starting with Romulus it has this great commander for Italy of one Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus. The poem was written in hexameters. Can you tell me what this means of "Hexameters"? Also I believe I have come across still another list of 28 Lives Petrarch's called also of "De Viris Illustribus", however it is written in code. Petrarch refers to this secret list as Chronicle of Universal History of 28 homilies. It starts with the FIRST Persian ruler: Cyrus the Great. It talks of the Cyrus Cylinder and that it is of Human Rights and consists of 40 lines. Now that turns out quite interesting since 40 + 66 (the number of books in the Bible) is 106; which just happens to equal the number of Famous Women that Boccaccio did that Petrarch helped on. This list then goes to the FIRST great Macedon ruler (Philip II) and then to the FIRST great Greek ruler (Alexander the Great), then to the FIRST great Roman politician "Appius Claudius" (of the Appian Way). --Doug Coldwell 01:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand your question 'what this means of "Hexameters"?'. Hexameters were used, for example, by Ovid, whose work Petrarch must have known. By 'Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus', do you mean Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus Major? There is no reason to put Cornelius in quotes, but the ordering with Scipio preceding Cornelius is odd.  --Lambiam 01:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is the Scipio I am refering to. Would you say this is a fair statement for Scipio: "There was a certain man in Roman command ("Consul") called Cornelius, a captain of the soldiers of Italy." There just happens to be a very specific reason I am asking it this way. Also why I am specific for "Cornelius". Will explain later. --Doug Coldwell 14:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. Livy calls him once "P. Scipio Africanus", and after that "P. Africanus". He never uses the gentilicium "Cornelius". So it may be a bit strange. Rather than "he was called Cornelius" you could say "he was a Cornelius" – although still a bit peculiar because saying "he was a Scipio" is as easy and much more informative. Make sure that if he is called a captain, it is at a point of his career when he is indeed at a rank comparable with a captain, and not a senior commander. For the ranks, see further the article Roman army.  --Lambiam 15:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer about Livy. Polybius perhaps called him the gentilicium "Cornelius". Perhaps also Plutarch??? In any case however I do believe Petrarch would have had access to the fact Scipio was from the family "Cornelius". Could he also have been called a "centurion" as well as a "captian" or even "a Roman army officer". These terms are NOT mine, however come from other sources; so it is important if these "titles" (even if loose) would be appropriate? Would otherwise then the statement above I quoted from a source be correct as to a description for Scipio Africanus? Would then (even if a loose description) these statements describe this same Scipio "Cornelius" Aficanus Major? "Now there was a certain man in Roman command, Cornelius by name, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment." "There was a certain man in Roman control, called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band." "Now there was a man at Consul named "Cornelius", a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort." Would you say the above would be fair statements for Scipio? Doesn't have to be strict, just as general statements. These statements by the way are NOT something I made up, but come from various well known sources. Isn't it also quite likely that Petrarch would have known the fact that Scipio (a.k.a. "P. Scipio Africanus") was from the family "Cornelius"? --Doug Coldwell 16:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the documents available to Petrarch but bits of Plutarch were read throughout the middle ages. He was very popular in antiquity and individual lives and quoted fragments remained in other works so Petrarch probably was familiar with some of the work in Latin. Petrarch did not know Greek, he relied on people like Leozio Pilatus who was one of the primary scholars of Greek at the time. In one letter to Pilatus, Petrarch said thanks for the manuscript of Homer Pilatus but confessed he could not read it and asked for translations of others including Hesiod. In a letter addressed to Homer Petrarch writes how so very few people in a city who know Homer's works. As for other lives by Petraach, I only know of two groups: Book I and Book II. I would be interested in where you read about lives including Cyrus, there other who wrote works entitled De Viris Illustribus. meltBanana 01:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thought maybe that would be interesting to you. I will reveal this, however a little later. It turns out that there are no other scholars that knows of this; so at this point it is pretty much a secret. First I am waiting for an answer above pertaining to "Cornelius". Both of you have given me EXCELLENT answers, so I will reveal this secret to you both a little later, especially after I point out a couple of things first. This special secret list that Petrarch did is of 28 Lives. Some are on his Latin list of 23 Lives (i.e. Scipio). Coincidently the number of letters in Petrarch's name plus "Africa" is also 23. Petrarch's Liber II is of 12 Lives, the same amount of letters as in Laura deNoves. More on this later. I will give you half the list here at the end. From this you can see that it is in reverse chronological order (making it "Chronicle"). Also it consists of Persian Kings, Macedonian Kings, Greek rulers and the FIRST major Roman politician (Appius Claudius). Would you agree with me that he was the FIRST real Roman political figure? Notice then the pattern of FIRSTS in each of these lists that Petrarch did. The two lists you pointed out to me has the FIRST Roman ruler and the FIRST person of the Bible. Boccaccio's list (influenced by Petrarch) of Famous Women is of the FIRST woman of the Bible, Eve. Do you see this pattern of FIRSTS? This is important because it then leads into this special secret list I am refering to with the FIRST Persian King, etc. Also you pointed out to me the various people that did De Viris Illustribus, one being Jerome. Notice Chapter 66 is of one "Cornelius" (a Bishop of Rome). Coincidently there are 66 books to the Bible. Add this up to the 40 lines of the Cyrus Cylinder and you get 106 (being the number of Boccaccio's Famous Women). Coincidence? Here is half the special secret list (now in Code) that Petrarch did of 28 Lives in the middle of the Fourteenth Century: 1) Cyrus the Great (First Persain ruler); 2) Darius I, the Great 3) Artaxerxes I 4) Darius III 5) Darius III (Codomannus) with sister-wife Stateira I

  Stateira (daughter of Stateira I) married Alexander the Great.

6) Philip II of Macedon. 7) Alexander the Great 8) Philip III of Macedon (half brother of Alexander, the Great)

  This chapter is also of Alexander's son Alexander IV

9) Appius Claudius (builder of the Appian Way and Aqua Appia. 10) Publius "Cornelius" Scipio Africanus (fought Hannibal of Carthage) 11) Publius Cornelius Scipio (father of Scipio Africanus Major) 12) Lucius Aemilius Paullus (daughter Aemilia Tertia married Scipio) 13) Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix (war against King Jugurtha of Numidia) 14) Marcus Aemilius Scaurus (His second wife was Caecilia Metella

    Dalmatica who was later the third wife of Lucius Cornelius Sulla)

Notice that each "Illustrious Person" is in some way is connected to the next person (or the next after person). This is as if there was a needle and thread that sewed these together in relationships (not necessarily blood line). What is important about this is that it took enclyclopedic knowledge of these ancient people to make this "connection" between each of them. My background is NOT in history, so I could NOT have made this up. Both of you are EXTREMELY knowledgable on ancient facts, so you recognise these "relationships". The ONLY one I have not made a postive connection on ("relationship") is between Alexander the Great and Appius Claudis. I know there is a "connection" because I can see the pattern. The pattern follows all the way through, starting from Cyrus the Great all the way to number 28. From number 10 all the rest happen to be related to Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus Major in some way (i.e. his son adopted one or his daughter married another, etc). Will reveal the next time, however had to set a BASIS first. One more easy question: In Jerome's list, not counting the last Chapter since it apparently is an identification (signature), how many Christian authors (Chapters) are there? --Doug Coldwell 14:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

For Lambiam & MeltBanana: Don't know what time zone you are on, however I believe it is the same as mine of Eastern Standard Time. Perhaps you are in England, however don't know for sure. I must say that BOTH of you have given me EXCELLENT answers and hope to continue this conversation. What I have just now supplied I realize will take some time to research and answer. To elaborate further on the above De Viris Illustribus here is some more, all of which I hope you all will give me a comment on. The above list of 28 Lives (that no other scholar up to now knows about) was written by Petrarch around 1350 +/- 20 years. I have furnished you with half the list 1-14. Notice that ALL are in some way related to the next people below. It may not however be necessarily a blood-line, but there is a "connection" or a relationship in some way. Petrarch himself refers to this as "Chronicle of Universal History of 28 homilies" and does NOT call these Lives De Viris Illustribus as he has his other known lists (presently in Latin only as described above of 23 Lives and 12 Lives). Have you noticed in Jerome's list that there are 134 Lives. Chapter 135 is the person called Jerome identifying himself as to what he wrote. I am NOT a religious person and do not attend church so know NOT of this person (other that looking up in Misplaced Pages). Coincidently Chapter 66 is of one "Cornelius", a Bishop of Rome. Now here is where it gets VERY VERY interesting. Both of you's have MUCH knowledge of ancient people, however I'll bet you dollars to donuts that in the case of Jerome's "Christians" you do NOT know most of them (if any). Out of the 134 Lives ("Christians"), how many do you have any kind of history of? Not looking for this information, however just a percentage (i.e. "50%"). My guess is that between you BOTH you do NOT know even 10%. Am I right? Also you do NOT know of this list of 28 Lives above I furnished. Here are some additional Lives of this list of 28: 20. Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus 21. Quintus Fabius Maximus Aemilianus 22. Quintus Fabius Maximus Allobrogicus 23. Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus 24. Lucius Cornelius Sulla 25. Marcus Aemilius Scaurus 26. Gaius Flavius Fimbria 27. Gaius Marius 28. Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus These names however you recognize as famous Roman commanders. Most are in some way related to Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus. I'll give you something more to ponder: I find it most interesting that Petrarch's most significant work was "Africa" of one Scipio "Cornelius" Africanus. Jerome's Chapter 66 is of a "Cornelius". The number 66 is a most significant number, being the number of books in the Bible. This secret Code list (The Petrarch Code) of 28 lives starts with the very FIRST great Persian ruler with perhaps the largest mass of land ever by any King. This was Cyrus the Great (the FIRST to use this designation of Great). He set the Jews free of Babylon with a set of Human Rights written on a clay cylinder, now called the Cyrus Cylinder. It has bascially 40 lines for these "Rights". Add the number 40 to 66 and you get 106, which just happens to be the number of people on Boccaccio's list "On Famous Women". Look over this list and you will find a couple of interesting things: 1) there are several names there that really don't make sense and are what I call "filler" names to get the number to 106. 2) There are several there that are connected to Petrarch's lists of Lives (i.e. Scipio's wife). Notice that Scipio is on my secret list of 28 lives and also on the Latin list that starts with Romulus. Now with this number of 106 then add my number of 28 Lives to get 134 = the amount of Lives on Jerome's "De Viris Illustribus" Christians. Now here is where it gets scary: Look in Acts Chapter 10 and tell me the name of the person that is a Captain and for what country......... --Doug Coldwell 21:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Pope Vigulus and Oregans.

I'm curious as to wether Pope Vigulus (present at same time as Emperor Augustine had communication with the Greek philosepher Oregans. Its rumured that this pope held views on reincarnation that were expelled by the Emperor (and cardinals) because they would have diminished the papal authority and control of the masses (Im asuming this is pre Nician creed). Is this conspiracy rubbish or does it have some historical foundation? Please contact me at <email address removed> Best wishes Sean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.76.23 (talk • contribs)

The names seem to be rather garbled -- I assume you mean Pope Vigilius and Origen, but they were not contemporaries. AnonMoos 08:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

And who is "Emperor Augustine"? Contemporary with Vigilius (pope from 537–555) would have been emperor Justinian I (ruling 527–565). Several emperors were contemporary with Origen, but none with a name even vaguely similar to "Augustine". The original Nicene Creed is from 325.  --Lambiam 11:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

what was used as winter-clothes in the old days ?

During the time around 1100-1400 (medieval age), what cloth/clothes did they use during winter and in cold temperatures?

I'm interested in what they used in europe, and what the vikings used.

can u tell me what they used from top to toe ? from inner to outer ? and if u include armor and protective gear that they MAY used at the same time, then thats just a bonus. what were the clothes made of? what cloth were used ? and what did it look like? did they have jackets at that time ? coats or thick "winter-robes" ? scarf ?

they could have many layers of clothes and then something big and thick/warm like a coat/"winter-robe" at the top?

clothes were made of animal-FUR (from what animals?), LEATHER, COTTON, WOOL ? ? and i repeat, my question is about what they used during WINTER, cold and harsh temperatures, many minus degrees and such. Especially TRAVELLERS and those who would otherwise spend long time out in the frost and cold weather.

well... just tell me from top to toe, from inner to outer and what cloth were used to make the clothes if you can and know the answer to my question. I would appreciate it and be very thankful as I am very interested in this subject.

a very direct answer to this sort of questions is hard to come by.

Krikkert7 14:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)krikkert7

I am not an expert but will share what I know my impressions with you. I think that the answer to your question would vary a lot by region. It would also very depending on a person's status. In southern Europe, temperatures were not as cold, and common people would have gotten by with wool garments (underwear, socks, breeches, a tunic or robe, perhaps a wool hat, perhaps a wool coat). Peasants in southern Europe probably mostly remained barefoot even in winter. In the north, people would have needed leather shoes or boots as a matter of survival. Wool undergarments were common everywhere, but people who were slightly better off might have worn a leather coat over the wool garments. People in northern Europe would have worn more layers than those in southern Europe. Because animal husbandry was more important than raising crops in northern Europe, use of leather for outer garments and hats was probably more widespread there. In the north, people would have been more likely to wear mittens or gloves. Cotton was almost unknown in medieval Europe. It was a rare and expensive cloth, like silk, that would have been worn only by wealthy people and mainly in the warmer months. Fur was somewhat more common in Europe, but was also rather expensive. It would have been worn mainly in northern Europe during the colder months. The most abundant animals for fur would probably have been rabbits and hares. This would have been most common and least expensive. In the far north, even less wealthy people might have used the more common furs as linings. More expensive furs came from the European mink, sable, and stoat. These were worn mainly by wealthier people as part of hats, coats, and stoles. Marco polo 21:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

at that time people dressed very lightly for modern standards. Vickings in particular very often wore nothing on their chest even in winter time as sign of virility. Shoes in modern sense didn't exist, and boots were extremely rare. The most common shoe was patten made of one wooden block, less common leather sandals. Even in the deep north poor people (the vast majority) often walked barefoot or used simple fabric pieces tides with ropes or just flexible branches. Fashion in dressmaking varied deeply by region, but the most common cloth material was line. Wool and leather were a luxury commodity, even for shepherds, while cotton, silk or other exotic fibres were very rare or unknown. Nevertheless, heavy hides were sometimes used for coverage in remotes lands, like mountains or steppes. They were very crude shaped or not at all. The standard cloths were simple tunics, more complex designs such as shirts, jumpers, trousers or gloves were extremely expensives and even rich people wore them rarely. Socks or underwear didn't exist. Essential for the picture is remember that at the time the poors nor the rich wash them. Many movies depict this period, but the choreography they show is often quite fantastic. They tend to show elaborated clothes, colored ones, and perfect teethings. Off course that's not true. And travelers were those who looked the worst, because they broke their fragile cloths very easily and were dirty, tired and hungry because their journey. Off course travelers were very rare too.

Krikkert, I think that this person's account is probably more accurate in most ways than my earlier one. Linen may have been more common than wool, even in winter. However, I have definitely read that people wore woolen underwear, and furthermore that they washed their underwear, though not their other clothes. Also, I think that it is inconceivable that people in northern Europe (Scandinavia) walked barefoot or that Vikings went barechested in winter. This would have led very quickly to frostbite and/or hypothermia, and given the lack of medical care, sickness and death. Granted, lifespans were short, but people had to live long enough to raise children. They would not have survived long exposures to subfreezing temperatures without adequate covering. Marco polo 02:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a scene in the Niebelungenlied when Siegfried and the others go on a hunt. Upon returning, they ride up on horseback ruining their clothing that had been made for the occasion. They wore shirts (tunics) and trousers. Their horses had saddles. They had footwear (likely leather boots). These were North Europeans of a mythical time, concurrent with Vikings.

In WW1, soldiers for England might not have had leather boots, but knew how to use bandages to strap their feet for marching, so my grandfather told me. It is possible the straps were leather.

Clothing was washed in the middle ages. Detergent was not used. People generally did not wash. Peasants had smocks, and possibly loin cloths. Women might bandage their chests as was fashion in China until recently. However, clothing for wealthy was different than slave or commoner.

Warmer clothes were required for colder climates, but remember, Scots wore kilts DDB 12:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but Scotland isn't really cold in winter, compared to Sweden or Russia. And I suspect that on a really cold winter day, kilt-clad Scotsmen would wrap themselves in a wool robe or a hide. Marco polo 13:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The old "kilt" had little connection to the modern phillibeg, which is essentially a woollen skirt - it was a single long piece of thick cloth worn around the waist and then over the shoulder, with a heavy knee-length shirt underneath. It basically was a woollen robe... Shimgray | talk | 21:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Dec 26

Sunken Ship

I read your shipwreck page and could not find a specific ship that I am looking for. I do not know the exact spelling of the ship but it sounds like Vardusi It was sailing from a place called Tanganica in Africa. My mother in law knew a lady that was one of the survivors and we were just trying to find some more information. Can someone help.

That place must have been Tanganyika, a former independent state that formed a union with Zanzibar and now is called Tanzania. The port could have been Dar-es-Salaam. Do you have any further information about the date, the destination and the location? Was this in the 30s of last century, or in the 80s? Was the ship sailing to Cairo or to Bombay? And so on. Vardusi is the name of a mountain in Greece, so it may have been a Greek ship, but Googling the name did not bring up any ships, sunk or otherwise.  --Lambiam 16:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The Lady who was one of the survivors died 15 years ago surname Hohbach & she was pregnant when she was rescued so she named her daughter Dusi after part of the ships name. They used to have reunions in Johannesburg. It was during world war 2.They were leaving Tanganyika to come to South Africa, That is all I know. But cannot find any information on it. --41.243.136.235 17:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)Louise

Sorry I can't be of much help but a possibility is that something that sounds like Vardusi is Firdawsi well ish. The name of a Persian poet is a fairly good name for a ship but something I read said that Firdawsi is also a Swahili word meaning paradise or beautiful garden. Unfortunately the poet's name is spelt many different ways and shipwrecks in WWII were all too common. Sorry. meltBanana 03:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Im just not sure of the spelling it could be Warduzi, vaartosea, vartusi - I just typed it the way it sounds when she pronounced it. Thanx anyway.

Hi. I think I found it. It was the Watussi (German Passenger ship) that was intercepted by the Royal Navy Battle Cruiser Renown on the 2nd December 1939. Now I just need information on the Survivors. Tx Louise 27.12.2006

Here we are...

The German passenger ship Watussi (9552 BRT) is intercepted in the South Atlantic about 50 nautical miles south of Cape Agulhas, South-Africa by the British battlecruiser HMS Renown and the British heavy cruiser HMS Sussex. However, before the German ship can be captured she is scuttled by her own crew.

...a reconnaissance aircraft of the South African Air Force reported a ship south of the Cape of Good Hope. She was intercepted by the Sussex but her crew set her on fire. She proved to be the German liner Watussi, 9600 tons, and was sunk by gunfire from the Renown, her crew being picked up and taken to Simonstown by the Sussex.

...One of our companions had intercepted the German liner Watussi; she was well alight when we arrived and it was decided to use one of B turrets guns to sink her. Imagine the delight of the engine-room crowd assembled on deck to watch the fun when B gun missed completely at close range, but managed to sink her after a couple of further shots; her survivors had previously been picked up by Sussex and taken on to Capetown.

So the survivors probably went to Capetown (Simonstown is a nearby naval base) sometime in December 1939. More detail than that is hard to find without digging up port records, and aftwerwards they'll probably have vanished into the South African population - which is where they were going anyway. I suppose there's a possibility some surviving documentation from the Sussex might have a list of names Shimgray | talk | 14:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

use of pictures on the wikipedia-reference page ?

I tried use "insert picture gallery" above the subject/headline to add two pictures to ask you something about two pictures i have saved on my computer... but i didnt understand how to do it entirely... sp is it at all possible to add pictures to my questions here so you may see them ? i cant describe my question without showing you the two pics...

thank you

Don't add large image displays to Reference desk pages. Easiest and safest would be just to put them in a <gallery> structure:

<gallery>

Image:FirstPic.jpg

Image:SecondPic.gif

</gallery>

-- AnonMoos 14:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

And you first have to upload them either to our Misplaced Pages or the Commons; see Help:Images.  --Lambiam 15:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Inequality?

If it is because we have different colours, different races, different talents and the most imprtantly 'varied intelligence' which in consequence leads one to earn more, to get richer than the other, and to live a life that other who living in the dire straits can only dream about, then why do we keep on repeating that human beings are the most developed of all the living beings even if it seems that they are the most unfortunate of all because of the brain that they have developed during the evolution which in turn and after some millions of year have rendered mankind one of the wretched ones: poor always finding it more difficult to solve the hand to mouth problem than a savage creature living in a wild state; and the richer ones never being able to have a secure and peaceful life; even after earning millions of dollar and properties which are generally claimed to satiate man's desire; which even a lion living in the jungle can have after killing and feeding on a deer? Then what all this is for?

Binod

Please contact me with at least specious answers —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.79.62.15 (talk • contribs).

Hmmm... I am trying to find a question hidden amongst all that prose.

No luck. I will simply say that I agree with your premise that man is the most wretched of all creatures, especially because of his giant brain. However, I'm confident that all our strife and suffering will be redeemed — just over the past year I would say that our collective consciousness has gotten a little more sensible and respectable. Cheers. Vranak

Been odd too, Binod. Been wondering why and whatfor. Still wondering why all the burden of proof is upon us human people. Ain't that fun ? -- DLL 21:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry? What was your question again? 202.168.50.40 21:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to look at it positively, billions of people manage to live their lives in peace and prosperity, what other large animals can make that claim ? Our pets, cats and dogs, are the only ones I can think of, and they only are so successful because of humans. StuRat 11:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Quality over quantity. Vranak

Why do Westerners use green color for positive and red color for negative in stock market?

... and also here at Misplaced Pages: Special:Recentchanges, Special:Watchlist

Here in China, we use red for positive and green for negative. I wonder why you use colors exactly in an opposite way. Any information about this topic at Misplaced Pages? Yao Ziyuan 18:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably the main reason is that, on a traffic light, green means "go" and red means "stop". More generally, green is a color associated with money, peace, and growth (of plants); whereas red is often used for warning signs and is associated with danger and violence (fire and blood). For more references, see the articles Red and Green. Marco polo 18:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

But here my understanding red is a warm color considered as positive and green is cold as negative. A Google search gives no useful information. Red and Green also says nothing on the cultural difference. I found this topic interesting. Another similar example might be Chinese number gestures, while Image:Chinesische.Zahl.Acht.jpg means two for you and eight for me. Yao Ziyuan 18:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you look through the articles on Red and Green, you will find sections on symbolism, including some of these cultural differences. Marco polo 18:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

In finance, "in the red" means losing money, so red is an obvious choice for "down." The opposite of "in the red" is "in the black," which is presumably why Yahoo used to show gaining stocks in black. For some reason, they recently switched from black to green. I suppose it's because of analogy with stoplights, as previously mentioned. It makes it more difficult for color-blind people. -- Mwalcoff 19:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

"In the red" and "in the black" refer to the colors of ink used in calculating deficits and gains. It relies on the same color associations; it isn't the formation of them. --24.147.86.187 19:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I imagine "in the red" took on a whole new meaning when China was really communist. Clarityfiend 11:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no necessary reason that "red" and "green" (or black) be associated with gains or losses. In Western cultures the red/green traffic light has existed since the early 20th century. I don't know if that's the original source of the metaphors, though — "red" has associated with warnings for much longer than that, I am fairly sure, most likely due to its association with blood. Green makes for a very sharp contrast with red which is one of the reasons red/green pairings are quite common (Christmas colors, for example). My understanding of it is that traditionally in China, at least, red has numerous other associations, many of them positive (though according to our page on red, the connection with blood is there also common, which is not surprising). In the representations of gains/losses, I imagine there is no other reason than cultural convention, though it is interesting that both cultures would choose vivid contrasting colors to represent such things.

--24.147.86.187 19:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Railway signalling systems (semaphores) already used coloured lights at night much earlier, and the specific choice of colours for traffic lights may have been a copy of that.  --Lambiam 19:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Another instance of coded use of red and green is for channel buoys and identifying directions of ships and aircrafts. "Ships and aircraft carry a red light on the port side, and a green one on the starboard side." from starboard. I don't know wether there is a link between these different uses of red and green. Keria 22:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, a few points. First, the colors used by early railway signals were determined by what kinds of colored glass were available and because they had to work with the colored flame of an oil lamp. Early signals generally used red lights or white lights (i.e. clear glass) if the signal was to be just lit or unlit, and once it was realized that it was better to have a light all the time and just substitute a different color, the earliest code was red for stop/danger and white for clear. When it was realized that an intermediate color was needed for caution, green was used, as it was the only other suitable color available -- and I would think this last fact would also account for the use the same two colors in shipping, with aircraft then copying that.

Later as other lights became more common, white had to be replaced in railway signaling, so a suitable yellow glass was developed and introduced as the new caution color, green becoming the clear signal. These colors were then copied for traffic lights.

Until almost the end of the era when typewriters were widely used in business offices, they generally used a ribbon with two separate colored inked strips along it, so you could type in red or black by just shifting the ribbon height. From this it would seem to follow that there was at least some use in business of red as the alternative color to black. (However, the difference would not show up on a carbon copy or photocopy, so I don't think red can have been used all that much. Probably only in specific contexts when people would only have referred to the original document.) I don't know if the use of red in typewriter ribbons is because this was again the easiest color to produce, and this led to a custom of usage, or if the custom came first and the two-color ribbons came later.

In any case, the common expressions are "in the black" to denote a profit and "in the red" to denote a loss, and there is a natural extension to stock market gains and declines. I guess the choice of red for these purposes must relate to its use to mean danger. The idea of using green as the opposite of red in this sense is new and unusual, as suggested above; however, red and green are two very strongly contrasting colors (for people who aren't color-blind) and are also opposed on traffic lights, so it's a natural choice as the opposite of red. Further, if you want to invest in a stock that is rising, the traffic-light interpretation gives the right guidance.

I note that in another context there is the expression "red-letter day" for a day when something important and good happens. Outside of the specific contexts, such as the business context we've been talking about, colors in writing don't generally have specific meanings.

The original poster referred to "warm colors". The term is used in Western countries mostly in connection with purely visual arts -- painting, architecture, interior decorating -- not in connection with presentation of text. People don't normally think or speak of text in red as "warm". This may be because the most common color of printed text is black, which is not considered either "cool" or "warm".

--Anonymous, December 27, 03:07 (UTC).

Bear in mind that red was traditionally the "second colour" for printing purposes; rubrication dates way way back. It was used for emphasis, for noting special details in print and in manuscript - indeed, "red-letter day" seems to comes from a practice of rubricating saints-days and the like in calendars. The use of red in printing, even before "colour printing", was probably the impetus to providing it for typewriters.

My theory is that its use in finance comes from the "negative" figures being the most important ones to be able to differentiate at a glance, and thus being emphasised in the traditional way. I don't know how early this practice was, though; if it postdated or predated the typewriter - anyone have a pre-1850 account book handy? Come to think of it, I don't even know when typewriters adopted two-tone ribbons... Anyway, this will have spread to general use of negative-red, and the use of positive-green - which would have to wait for widespread use of colour - will simply have been chosen for being "the obvious opposite" of red. I can't prove it without examples which I don't have handy, but it certainly looks plausible. Shimgray | talk | 13:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

And don't forget that red is still the color of emergency lights on fire and rescue vehicles in the West even though police vehicles have moved to blue. Adaptron 14:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Dec 27

US influence on UK entry into the Eurozone

I have just read the following comment in a discussion forum in The Guardian: "the UK will join the Euro if and when we get permission from the US Federal Reserve, and not a moment sooner." I was unaware of US influence in the UK decision to join the Euro, nor is there any info. about this on the Euro article. Could someone explain if any strong US influence is exerted over UK currency decisions in this area (Eurozone membership)/explain this comment in the forum? Thanks. --AlexSuricata 00:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that there is any formal agreement along these lines between the United States and the United Kingdom, nor between their respective central banks. Probably the comment was made by someone who perceives the United Kingdom to be abjectly following US dictates, based on the UK's continuing involvement in the US adventure in Iraq, despite overwhelming public sentiment against this involvement in the UK. We do not entirely know why the Blair government has adopted this policy, but there is no reason to believe it carries over into monetary policy. On the other hand, I think that a majority of the British public is opposed to joining the euro. Any party proposing such a move would probably lose support, particularly if that party continues military involvement in Iraq. Marco polo 02:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Last I checked, the UK is a sovreign nation. Despite the proximity of Tony Blair's lips to George W. Bush's buttocks, the UK makes its own international and monetary policy. --Nelson Ricardo 02:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Though of course it will be considerably less sovereign after "joining the Euro".... -Nunh-huh 03:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Marco, there doesn't need to be a formal agreement. Blair is quite happy to surrender his country's foreign policy to the dictatorship of the White House, we saw that especially in Iraq (and I haven't seen any rewards from the Yanks for British help in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Alex, I think any influence the US has is freely granted by a weak British government (in my opinion). Quite a popular argument, that one, actually. I don't know if Blair would want to let Bush do the same with UK monetary policy as he has done with defence policy, but it is worth knowing that anything Blair does (at this stage) must be approved by Brown, because it will fall to him to implement. And Brown's "toughman" image doesn't suggest he's as willing to be bossed around like that. At any rate, I think he is known to be more anti-Euro than Blair.

Can someone suggest what interests Bush would have, in a UK economy based on the Euro?martianlostinspace 11:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This may be beyond the scope of the reference desk, but I will comment anyway. First of all, I think that Bush's main interest is pleasing his benefactors, America's oil and weapons industries and the superwealthy. The rise of the euro is a threat to the dollar hegemony that supports the US and its military contractors and provides the US with the ability to promote the interests of its oil industry through military means. I believe that Blair teamed up with the US to give British military contractors and (more importantly) its oil industry (BP and Shell) access to the same advantages. This is particularly important at a time when Britain's North Sea oil reserves are running out and the UK is returning to the status of an oil importer. The euro, as an alternative world currency and (more importantly) a potential alternative to the dollar as a means of payment for oil, would challenge dollar hegemony and the ability of the US to protect US (and UK) oil interests. Russia, Iran, and other OPEC members have recently been studying or moving toward accepting euros alongside (or instead of) dollars as payment for oil. (Currently, only dollars are generally accepted.) If euros were accepted as payment for oil, nations would no longer need to build up massive dollar reserves, the value of the dollar would drop, and interest rates in the US would rise, because foreigners would no longer need to purchase US debt as a way of investing their dollar reserves. (See United States public debt.) Rising interest rates would very likely crash the debt-based US economy. The UK is too heavily invested in the US to want this to happen. By joining the euro, the UK could promote these dire scenarios. By joining the euro, the UK would add significantly to the size and the appeal of the euro zone, it would eliminate the pound sterling as an alternative minor reserve currency, and these two factors would add to the momentum toward adopting the euro as a reserve and oil-payment currency. However, Blair has sided with the US against the euro-zone powers (Germany and France), and I suspect the financial backers of the Labour Party have dictated this alignment. I doubt that Gordon Brown or the Conservatives would change this policy. I do not think that the UK will be joining the euro anytime soon. Marco polo 14:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The Labour government are in power, not Tony Blair. That the government went to war alongside America and supports the continued efforts in the conflict is not evidence itself of American influencing (any more so than might be expected of friendly nations) the choices of this government. Media talk shows the UK as the weaker-partner but this does not mean that the UK government has not used its influence to lessen/alter/change the decisions the US government have made.

With regards to the original question I have not come across anything to suggest there is any direct-link (or indeed indirect) that would prevent the UK going into the Euro-currency if it desired. The factors against the Euro seem to a skeptical public, the potential loss of control for said government over issues which shape how good/bad a job the government do, little political value is perceived to be gained from this (unlike for example devolution of Scotland/Wales which could significantly improve the election-fortunes of the conservative party). I would ask the person on the Guardian forum/comment is free thing to provide some links because if such a thing is true I would anticipate there is a desire for a Misplaced Pages article detailing the link/thing (or at least a mention in an appropriate article). ny156uk 17:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Style of future husbands of Princesses of York

Hello, I wonder about the following: At the moment, there are two Princesses of York: Beatrice and Eugenie. Now, if somebody, let's call him John Smith, marries Princess Beatrice, what would his style presumably be? I'm somewhat doubtful whether he would be called Prince John of York after the marriage... Second question: If some years later Eugenie gets married as well, say, to a Harry Miller, what would his new title be? I guess, it wouldn't be the same as the one of "John Smith"...

Thanks for your answers

--83.173.215.12 12:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

There are no Princesses of York. Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. They are called "of York" not because there is such a thing as a "Princess of York", but because they are daughters of the Duke of York. In any case, their future husbands will acquire no titles simply by marrying them: a wife acquires her husband's titles, but the reverse is not true. If Beatrice marries Mr. John Smith, he will still have the title "Mr.". Of course, it is possible for a title to be granted to Mr. Smith before the marriage so that Beatrice doesn't have to suffer the indignity :) of being married to a "Mr.", and so that their eventual children would have titles, but this is a separate matter. The same goes for Mr. Harry Miller. - Nunh-huh 12:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay. And do we know from history which title, if any, these husbands would then be granted? --83.173.215.12 13:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really: in fact, we don't know that they would be granted any titles at all. When the Queen's daughter Anne married Captain Mark Philips, he remained Captain Mark Philips, and when she married Captain Timothy Lawrence, he remained Captain Timothy Lawrence. But a generation before that, when Princess Margaret married Anthony Armstrong-Jones, he was created Lord Snowden in anticipation of the marriage. The factors that are probably considered are closeness of the princess to the throne (i.e., how many people would have to die for them to reign); the princess's personal wishes (Anne did not want her children to have titles); the advice of the government; current strategy of dealing with peerages; the current practice is to minimize their granting. You seem to be asking if there is some traditional title for this situation (as in "second sons get Duke of York, third sons get Duke of Clarence, husbands of princesses get X"), and there is no such traditional title. The further back in history you go the more likely the future husband is to have been made a peer of some sort or another; of course, the further back you go the more likely they are to have married someone who was already a peer. - Nunh-huh 13:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

You formulated my question more eloquently than I could ;-) Exactly this "traditional title" was what I wondered about. Anyway, now I'll sit back and watch what happens once such a marriage takes place. Thanks again --83.173.215.12 13:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Abstention from pre-marital sex

How did religion become so involved in something that is so personal to a person, and so irrelavent to the religion. I mean why is it so strongly discouraged. Other rules handed down by religions are roughly the basis for a succusful society (do not steal, do not kill, do not lie etc.) or rituals involving worship of whatever the religion is based around, and so you can see the origins of these beliefs. But why is premarital sex discouraged, it doesnt harm anyone, doesnt lead to situations that people dislike, and for it to take place, both parties actively want it. Being possibly the greatest feeling that can be obtained why is religion so harsh as to try and outlaw it, except for in the strict confines of some sort of ritual based relationship. I can understand dedicating yourself to one person once you are in a relationship, but not abstaining from it prior to meeting that person. As as long as you practice safe sex, no-one gets hurt surely, so isnt it just a pointless rule, resented by those who feel that they have to abide by it? Philc _TC 14:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of it has to do with whom you have sex since having sex in effect results in the surrender (if only momentary) of one person to another. Would you want your teens to have sex with the devil and then have to live with the devil's influence on them the rest of their lives. If so then there is no point in providing a further reply to this question. Adaptron 14:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Would I want my teens to have sex with a flying heap of meatballs and noodly appendages? Not particularly, but I would also not be worried that that might come to pass. I don't consider that fear a valid reason to have them don a chastity belt. I would not want them to marry a deeply evil person who they then presumably might have sex with, but I don't think this carries the day as a strong argument against marital sex. Finally, if there is no point in providing answers to questioners who don't happen to believe in the existence of the devil, then maybe we should institute a screening procedure for questioners.  --Lambiam 15:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Until very recently, the family was a vital economic unit, not just an emotional one. Also until recently, sex roles were very sharply defined, and a family could not survive without both an adult male and an adult female. Under these circumstances, (heterosexual) sex outside of wedlock brought the risk of childbirth outside of marriage. A child without a father faced many material disadvantages from the lack of a father to provide economic support and to transfer property rights in a system of patrilineal inheritance. Thus the ban on extramarital heterosexuality was a measure that protected children from the dangers of “illegitimate” birth (which included ostracism as an additional incentive for mothers to avoid such births).

The ban on homosexuality (by definition sex outside of marriage) brings up another dimension. The heterosexual family was the basic unit not only of economic life but of patriarchal power relations, which were the glue that held societies together until very recently. In fact, patriarchy remains important to power relations in many, if not most, parts of the world. By offering an emotional and sexual outlet outside of the heterosexual family, homosexual relations threatened the power of heterosexual families to control their members.

Thus, until very recently in a few Western societies, sex outside of marriage seriously threatened the entire social order. One of religion’s main functions is to protect and support the social order and the means of social control. Hence the bans on extramarital sex.

Marco polo 14:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

A traditional Jewish view is as follows. The religion is not ascetic. It does not demand a monkish existence. Activities that can be perceived as "indulgent" are tolerated or encouraged under certain conditions. Thus, it's fine to drink alcohol, indeed sometimes drinking alcohol is obligatory. However, don't miss your next scheduled set of prayers because you were drunk. It's fine to eat an excellent meal, indeed, sometimes eating well is obligatory. But say the appropriate prayers before and after. Similarly, the sexual laws. It's fine to have sex, indeed, sometimes having sex is obligatory. Just do so with someone who's not your close relative, who is not married to someone else and, erm, is married... to you. In a microcosm, these laws can be said to encapsulate Judaism's world view. The religion seeks to give meaning to life through changing the mundane into the holy. Eating an apple becomes special by making a blessing. Cleaning up the house becomes special through doing so in preparation for Shabbat. So, having sex, rather than being a dirty, shameful thing, is something good and holy. Just do it having read (and followed) the manual. Incidentally, Judaism doesn't say that these attitudes necessarily need apply to non-Jews. See Noachide Laws. --Dweller 14:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

None of the above replies attempt to answer the original question: How did religion become so involved in this issue? Of course, an immediate problem is that the believers of some religions believe that God has ordained that premarital sex is against Its will and a sin, so for those religions the answer is: Because God made it so by putting Its nose into what otherwise might have been a personal issue. For non-believers that answer is not satisfactory, for obvious reasons. A related question is how religion got so involved with the institution of marriage. While I don't have a satisfactory answer to that question, I think it might largely also answer the other question. The involvement is undoubtedly already from prehistoric times, which will make it hard to find other than speculative answers.  --Lambiam 15:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Religion probably became involved in the way it usually does with matters of morality - it's easier for people in authority to tell people what to do if the people believe they have the authority of God (or the gods, or whatever) behind them. Thus, dietary restrictions that were probably originally good advice from a health point of view at the time became sacred thou-shalt-nots. No sex before marriage, in a time before reliable contraception, is a sensible precaution to avoid unwanted pregnancy. Also, in patriarchal societies like those in which most of our religions formed, women were essentially the property of men - they belonged to their father until he agreed to transfer them into the property of a husband, often explicitly in exchange for cash. Women thus had economic value, based on their fertility, and a woman who could be guaranteed not to have slept with another man was at a premium because any children she bore would be guaranteed to be her husband's, and women who had sex before marriage brought disgrace on their family because they couldn't sell them for as much. Hence women are historically, and still, judged more harshly than men for having casual sex.

Reliable contraception and the emancipation of women should have made both these attitudes obsolete, but because they're written down in holy books that people take literally they haven't gone away. I think modern religion uses the no-sex-before-marriage rule for different purposes, though. I don't think it's a coincidence that the religions that have the most fanatical followers have the strictest rules about sex, and target the young. If you recruit kids in their teens and twenties and deny them an outlet for their burgeoning sexual energies, you can divert those energies into religious zeal. --Nicknack009 16:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

My answer attempted to address the question of how religion became so involved. Religion became so involved because its function is to protect and support the social order. (My perspective is obviously that of a nonreligious person.) As for the exact historical sequence, we cannot know, because religions have banned extramarital sex (with exceptions in a few religions for temple prostitutes or boys) since the beginning of history. So, this is something that dates to prehistoric times and most likely to the beginnings of religion (since families as units of economic life and power relations predate the origins of our species). As Lambiam rightly says, this is speculative, but religion probably developed because it was useful to early human societies partly for its definition and defense of the family unit on which survival and social cohesion depended. I agree with Nicknack about the place of these restrictions in modern Western society. Marco polo 16:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Religion does not prohibit anything. Its interpretation is the key. External manifestations of being religious is equally disgusting Being spiritual is important. Patience for desires is the right attitude towards religion. The american concept of freedom particularly the so called sexual freedom is only a guarantee for short lived happiness. Its no use speculating about banning religion or being faithless. Faith is essential to fight ones impatience. At the same time gay lesbians and other so called homosexuals in the west is just a consequence of impatience. 18:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)~~

I am not a theologian, but in reading all the above answers to the pre-marriage sex question, I noted no mention of the consequences of close blood relatives unwittingly procreating villages full of idiots. And clearly, small biblical and pre-contraception communities would want to militate against that possibility, particularly when spouses-to-be were sold across inter-village/town/city boundaries. In those circumstances, any unregulated illegitimate offspring would spawn genetic weaknesses that could imperil the whole community - just look at some of the remote North American mountain communities in the not-too-distant past! In the absence of any other recognised controlling agency, it seems to me that religious groups were ideally placed to provide those necessary controls, in order to protect the communities for giving better service and devotion to their God.

This is really a strange jump, equating pre-marital sex with incestuous sex. Where did that come from? And why would "biblical" communities, whatever they are, want to militate against that any more than other communities?  --Lambiam 19:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Balaam's ass

Balaam's ass. What's the meaning?

I assume you're familiar with the basic story. If not, go read it. Assuming you're asking on an interpretive level, one interpretation goes as follows. Balaam was one of the greatest prophets of all time (in some ways he exceeded Moses, hence the Bible says that there has never/will never be a prophet as great as Moses in Israel, i.e. among the gentiles, there was one). However, in his arrogance and stupidity, he ignored God's overt will. So God closed Balaam's eyes to a (by Balaam's standards) obvious divine manifestation (an angel with a flaming sword blocking his path). So obvious that even Balaam donkey could see it. He was supposed to learn his lesson, but didn't. Interestingly, Balaam exhibits no recorded surprise at his mount speaking to him. Perhaps in his world, such an event wasn't particularly out of the usual. --Dweller 15:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict:) The ass (the animal, not the body part) is famous for speaking to its master, thus being one of the very few documented cases of animals (excluding human beings) having spoken; another famous case being the serpent in the Garden of Eden. See further our article Balaam.  --Lambiam 15:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Prophets are used to talk with inf or sup entities. See Gabriel, &c. -- DLL 17:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Jerome: De Viris Illustribus (On Illustrious Men)

Who is familiar with Jerome's "Christians" or "Christian Authors"? http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2708.htm

I am especially interested in history information on Chapters 66 and Chapter 80 Chapter 66 is of one: "Cornelius", bishop of Rome. It talks further of the "eight letters of Cyprian are extant"; what is this? It further says: "He received the crown of martyrdom for Christ, and was succeeded by Lucius." Who is Lucius? Chapter 67 speaks of a "Cyprian of Africa" who was put to death at the same time as Cornelius. Who is he?

Chapter 80 is of "Firmianus, known also as Lactantius". Whom is this person? Looking for history information. This person is VERY inportant. Looking for some good detailed history information on this person "Firmianus". It says: "whose poem On medicine is still extant". Is there history information on this poem? What is this reference of: "...an Epitome of the same work in one volume, without a title...". What is this since apparently it was written in hexameters? --Doug 15:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The bishop of Rome is "by definition" the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. The persons referred to are Pope Cornelius and Pope Lucius I. The letters known by Jerome to exist may have been written by this Cyprian, who is mentioned as writing in support of Cornelius in that article. For Firmianus, see our article Lactantius. You can find most of this easily by using the search box on Misplaced Pages pages, or by using Google search terms like .  --Lambiam 15:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

help me with the months ?

Hey there. Yet another question from Krikkert :D

I'm a 'wanna be writer' and i beleive i have a special talent for it, so I'm writing this novel, (if i ever complete it, its due to come out sometime around year 2050, LOL. Its a huuuge and project writing a book :O ) which is why I have so many questions, and i use Misplaced Pages a lot as one of my most important sources. maybe even THE most important..

Anyways, being set in a fantasy/self-created world, I figured I had to make entirely new names for every MONTH of the year, and there is ONE month i struggle to name, 'the December-month'. And also, i must say, the names of all the months is not final yet, but it has been something I have been working on in my head for some time, and i won't settle down until I am 100 % satisfied with all month-names. And now the december-month is starting to get really tiresome as its new name is proving elusive to me and will not come to my head. I'm quite stuck... So i decided to be a bit creative and let YOU guys try be even more creative if you should wish to help me out :) You have always helped me out before, and i hope you are willing and creative enough also this time :) :) :)

The names goes as follows, (with the REAL month-names in parenthesis) :

• Frostmoon (January)
• Deepwinter (February)
• Rising (March)
• Springtide (April)
• Highseeds (May)
• Summertide (June)
• Highsummer (July)
• Highsun (August)
• Leaf-fade (September)
• Falling leaves (October)
• First frost (November)
• ??????????? (December)

So, if you let the names i have come up with so far guide you towards as to what kind of 'name' I am after, maybe you get some ideas to share to what i can call the month :)

Suggestions on the other month-names is WARMLY welcome as well, if u should want to suggest any. I'll put them into consideration and use whatever names is best :)

I'm also in doubt about Frostmoon/January...

and now that I'm at it, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MY NAMES ? are they any good in ur opinion ?

Let me see your creative sides ! :D

Krikkert7 17:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Krikkert7

Brrrrrr !? -- DLL 17:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Check out French Republican Calendar. The French completely re-invented the calendar after the Revolution, and you can see what names they came up with. Also for days of the week. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's some suggestions:

• Cold time (January)
• Grey season (February)
• Bird return (March)
• Planting time (April)
• Blossom time (May)
• Gentle breeze (June)
• Thunder time (July)
• Melt weather (August)
• Wet season (September)
• Harvest season (October)
• Bird migration (November)
• Long night (December)

You can also name months after fictional characters, like "The moon of Olgranath". And, you don't need to have 12 months, you can have any number you want. StuRat 18:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Your months as they are sound fine to me. Unless they are a major focus of the plot I would not spend too long worrying about them, what is important is your central theme, the pace, flow and direction of your writing. I admire the detail you are putting in, but be weary of concerning yourself with these things too much. As for alternative names for December how about "Hibernation" or looked at December, there are a few 'other names' for it there. ny156uk 18:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In Turkish the name for December, Aralık, literally means: "Inbetweenness", as if they'd rather skip it and start straightaway with January. Maybe you can find some inspiration there.  --Lambiam 19:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course it all depends on your particular climate. Up here in Canada these would be more appropriate:

• January: Freezing
• February: Still-Freezing
• March: Still-Freezing-but-it-Should-be-Over-Soon
• April: Cold-and-Wet
• May: Nippy-and-Damp
• June: Pleasant
• July: What-June's-over-Already?
• August: Pleasant-but-Summer's-Basically-Over
• September: Brisk
• October: Nippy-and-Windy
• November: Nippier-with-Some-Snow
• December: Cold

Loomis 20:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

A Problem With Statistics

I am having a hard time finding the statistics that I need for research. Please tell me if there is a specific strategy to get what I need: Misplaced Pages's article on Sierra Leone is wonderful, but I need to find out exactly how much it would cost to feed its citizens for one year. Can this be done?

Do you mean all of it's citizens or just those who are currently malnourished ? The first step would be to determine the population size. The total pop is easy, those who are malnourished would be harder. Next you need to decide how much it will take to feed each for a year. Be sure to include the cost of delivery and workers you need to hire. Then just multiply the two numbers. StuRat 17:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

StuRat's method works well if the purpose of your research is to determine how much it would cost an aid agency to feed the people of Sierra Leone. If the purpose of your research is to determine how much income the people of Sierra Leone need to feed themselves, then the relevant statistics probably don't exist. The number will depend heavily on factors such as climate and social stability, which will affect how much food Sierra Leoneans can grow for themselves (since many are subsistence farmers who would not normally spend much for food) and how much food is able to reach the markets, which will in turn affect its price on those markets. Marco polo 19:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

buenos aires argentina police

need to have information on history of buenos aires police department from 1945to 1965 thank you

Is there a concise, fact-based web site that provides summary information on both sides of controversial issues?

It would be great to find a web site that provides the concise arguments on both sides of controversial political, social, and economic issues. For example, are free trade agreements good or bad for America, should funding for education be increased, should stem-cell research be legal, etc. A one-stop-shop to get a concise introduction to the main arguments on important issues. Does such a web site exist? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sweet music (talk • contribs) 20:10, December 27, 2006 (UTC).

The first one that springs to mind is Misplaced Pages. We manage to do it pretty well for some issues. Beyond that, you can sometimes find sites on an issue-by-issue basis. Is there an issue in particular you're thinking of? -GTBacchus 20:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

You're like Balaam (see above). Try this, or this. --The Dark Side 20:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Fastest growing religion

Is islam the fastest growing religion on earth?

Just because Asia has too much population, and the western world haS easy access to the amenities of life are desires being created as a consequnece of impatience??? 21:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)~