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Template:Cv-unsure Leujohn

Extremely one-sided article

This article is extremely one-sided and does not reflect the complexities of the "meat debate". There are multiple passages that advocate against meat in addition to the passages advocating that it is ok to eat meat. The blinding omission is too big to let slip. "Sikh Scholars" do not represent all - or even a fraction of the plethora of information on the Sikh community. Why not develop a fuller, more thoughtful article that gathers viewpoints from all sources as well as ALL parts of Baani. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.231.198 (talk) 09:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Please do not add unreferenced edits unless it contains ISBN numbers and is WP:RELIABLE Thanks SH 19:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I referenced the Guru Granth Sahib - the main source for information on SIKH positions. IS there an ISBN number for the Guru Granth Sahib? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.231.198 (talk) 11:14, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

no but you do need to back up quotations with sound academic research by scholars who have ISBN numbersSH 15:48, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I just put in quotations from Guru Granth Sahib and even gave references on the internet and for some reason they have been deleted. Why is that? this article is biased and its not truthfull in the slightest. Quotations in the Guru Granth Sahib that say meat should be neglected by a Sikh is stated below:

Shabad page 723: O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish. The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ((Pause)) Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat. So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell.

Shabad page 139: Telling lies, they eat dead bodies. And yet, they go out to teach others. They are deceived, and they deceive their companions. O Nanak, such are the leaders of men. ॥1॥

Shabad page 141: To take what rightfully belongs to another, would be like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses. By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. ॥2॥

Can someone put that on the page, these are just a few from MANYYYY quotations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.102.248 (talk) 18:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

There are several reason.

1. WP:NPOV issues
2. WP:Verifiable
3. WP:OR

On a side note I would add Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, so we tend not to tolerate WP:Fringe here and pay more weight to academic research.Thanks SH 18:47, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Define academic research for me? im looking at some of the quotations that have been written on the current page about meat being edible, and they too, like my own quotes have been referenced from a link showing Guru Granth Sahib ji lines. So i ask what makes my source so different is that is the issue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.102.248 (talk) 18:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

This is not the place to WP:LAWYER. I suggest a discussion forum for that. This site is for academia and encyclopeadic articles and not WP:OR or WP:Fringe. Please respect the rules. ThanksSH 19:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

"This is not the place to WP:LAWYER. I suggest a discussion forum for that. This site is for academia and encyclopeadic articles and not WP:OR or WP:Fringe. Please respect the rules." Really? This is your idea of a consensus? Jujhar.pannu (talk) 04:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I will overlook your violation of WP:AGF here, but as an experienced editor you should know better. Misplaced Pages is not for WP:Fringe. As a vegetarian and a devout amritdhari Sikh I am well aware of the controversial nature of Diet in Sikhism, and that is why we have kept it as neutral as possible. Using WP:Reliable sources. Noty mixing it up with various sects such as Kabirpanthi or Akhand Kirtani Jatha, but trying to keep it as neutral as possible. If you cannot live with that I suggest take a break from Misplaced Pages. Thanks SH 06:11, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see see WP:Ownership of articles. In all regards I believe my last revision was much more neutral than yours, but the best way to solve a dispute is to come to a compromise ie only deleting/reverting the portions you disagree with rather than everything so please have a good-faith look at my edits. I am also a devout Amritdhari Sikh but I am not a vegetarian. Alot of topics eg Jatka, hunting, not eating meat for taste, which all are not included in the topic but are Sikh traditions and written extensively about by scholarly writers need to be in the article. I don't believe in presenting the subjective "authentic" view but rather all the major mainstream views, all different sides, the complete picture all organized under respective heading and summarized briefly at the top so that the reader can find what they are looking for, make their own views, and also so others wont feel that there is something missing here. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 16:53, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Your edits are have been edited due to the use of poor English, and non-Wiki formats and I strongly advise you to stop with your disruptive edits. WP:OWN does not apply here, what applies here is your insistence of WP:Fringe. Thanks SH 07:39, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I am glad you made a neutral lead and non POV lead, Thank you. Please stop dropping random wikipedia violations without being specific to where those where broken if they even where broken. The article can use a little bit of formatting as I suggested below, with the use of different level headers to separate the meat / vegetarian articles but I am fine with the rest of the article Jujhar.pannu (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The fact you don't understand the violations added with incredibly poor grammar and command of the English languages calls into question your WP:Competence as an editor. I have no doubt you have "some" knowledge of Sikhism, but your ability to convey that in a coherent and structured manner leaves a lot to be desired. Thanks SH 14:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Removing the 'SGPC issued' makes the article unfairly emphasize a personal POV. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not WP:POV. Read the references they refer to. They don't call it the SGPC Rehat Maryada. They call it the Rehat Maryada. Even the SGPC, call it the Rehat Maryada, and Gurmatta or general consensus amongst the majority of Sikhs accepts this to be the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Any deviation from this Rehat Maryda is known by difefreing names. Also note the lead was written with the consensus of several editors. You appear not to be engaging in that consensus. ThanksSH 06:48, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I am insisting using 'SGPC issued' not SGPC rehat maryada. Consensus are changeable and the adding of 'SGPC issued' is a new development. The only reason someone would want to remove it is to prove their one sidedness to the debate. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 18:02, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Or maybe that you haven't realised the WP:AGF is important. I have trolled through several refrences and there is no mention of an SGPC Rehat Maryada. SGPC issued is just playing on words and adds no value to the grammar or understanding. What you are saying sounds like a WP:LAWYER type argument. All SGPC do is publish it. The Akal Takht approve it. Thanks SH 00:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

It is still unfair and one-sided. Many prominent members of the committee making that rehat maryda published by SPGC in protest left the committee while the document was in the progress of being made, eg. Gurbachan Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh and a majority of Amritdhari Sikhs today around the world do not eat meat except if its hunted in the Jatka fashion that is why we must include an 'SPGC issued' at the least if not remove the sentence or make it more neutral as it contradicts the rest of the information presented in the artice, the Hukamnama by the Akal Takht saying 'Amritdhari sikhs can only eat Jatka meat' is not even followed by SPGC because the SPGC banned Jatka meat. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 18:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

No it's not. So what if some people left the committee making the decision? What you are saying if anything makes your argument even weaker and sounds like WP:Fringe and WP:OR. If anything the inclusion of such information hinders WP:NPOV. Misplaced Pages is not a forum for debate. If people wish to read about those people and what they did they can do so under their various sect articles. Alternatively I suggest WP:Mediation. I must however warn you, the present version of this article came about through WP:Mediation. So I doubt you will get anywhere. Thanks SH 08:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Sikh Gurus and Meat Eating

• Guru Nanak Dev: In Tradition Bhai Bala Janamsakhis, he is shown as eating meat when given by some of his devotee and made meat in kurukshetra.
• Guru Angad Dev: As Per Mahima Parkash, When Guru Amardas met him he was taking Goat Meat which shocked Guru Amardass too. Guru Angad Dev ji prepared vegetarian food for * Guru Amardass who remain shocked while watching Guru Angad Dev taking non vegetarian food.
• Guru Har Gobind: As per Gur Partap Suraj Granth and other texts, He started Jhatka Practice and go for Hunting.
• Guru Gobind Singh: He continued Jhatka Practice. Killed Goats at Banda Bahadur Dera, during panth creation day. He use to do hunting around Paunta and Anandpur.

• Guru Har Rai is shown as Vegetarian by Diet

Some bhagats also do business related to Animal and Killing which includes:

• Bhagat Sadhna: He was butcher by profession.
• Bhagat Ravidas: He cut dead animals for leather. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.164.43.221 (talk) 10:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Detail

Hello Commenter The content you have given is just brief, for detail you could visit the blog Meat Eating in Sikhism. It contains all historical information regarding said issue.

Understandable?

I am not a Sikh nor Indian, and I have to follow nearly every link to an Indian/Sikh term to understand it. Could a Sikh or Sikh expert amend that situation, as it is WP policy to write articles that do not require following links...? --Eu-151 (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I will have a bash my friend. Thanks SH 22:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

www.sikhphilosophy.net

I have used a link which has been used at the Vegetarianism page under Sikhism and assumed therefore it was WP:Reliable. Jujhar Pannu disagrees. I am happy to discuss this further and get the sources verified. Thanks SH 15:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I would recommend removing both as they are links to the first page of a forum post. If no concrete support for those sentences using those references can be found its only logical to remove the sentences. Jujhar.pannu (talk) 17:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I have no objection but, the reference has been used on another page and seems to be WP:Verifiable. I've read through the post at sikhphilosophy, and it seems to be sound academic work. Let me do some more research before we alter. Thanks SH 06:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Sarbloh and the Sikh Review

I've been scanning through the the Sikh Review and cannot find the article cited. Here is the link to the contents. Which article is it? Thanks SH 10:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

books.google.com/books?id=ObIlAQAAIAAJ Jujhar.pannu (talk) 18:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I want to see the exact passge thanks. That link is not good enough. I must warn you I have contributed frequently to the Sikh review. Thanks SH 07:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

General Consensus?

I question the statement in the first paragraph that states the "general consensus" opinion without citing any statistics. I therefore went looking for sources that could be cited to uphold or refute the statement. I was able to find multiple lively debates about the topic, which indicates to me that there may not be a general consensus. Please consider revising the statement or providing reputable statistical data. Simuloid (talk) 15:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipdia is not about getting statistics. It's about WP:Reliable. For example the whole of the Indian subcontinent could vote Mahatma Gandhi to be a Saint or even a God, but the reality was he was just an ordinary man. By some authors he was a sexist, a racist and mysogynist. If we had a vote on that, then that information would be excluded. DeludedFan (talk) 16:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit Warring and WP:Reliable

Firstly I will say please stop. I have been analysing some of the disputed edits. Firstly you cannot use primary sources such as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a reference. Secondly this paragraph highlights exactly the problem with some of the references.

], who is quoted many times in the holy book of Sikhism ''Sri Guru Granth Sahib'' <ref>http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=english</ref>, said that eating meat, killing an animal, a Hindu or Muslim way leading to hell <ref>http://www.spiritual.comuv.com/kabir-dohe-vegetarian.html</ref> (for ], ] and the early Muslims were vegetarians)<ref>http://www.spiritual.comuv.com/kabir-dohe-vegetarian.html</ref>. It was not to promote a new way to kill a creature. The Sikh gurus are in this perspective ; ] is sufficiently clear on this subject: kill an animal is a grave sin and asks to be compassionate to all living beings <ref>http://www.tapoban.org/meat.html</ref>. Meat consumption and kill an animal in any way is seen to many Sikhs as a serious betrayal of Sikhism <ref>http://www.panthkhalsa.org/rahit/rahit_kuthha.php</ref>.

This section uses these references below which are not WP:Reliable. I have looked at the site and have found the following:

1. http://www.panthkhalsa.org - appears to be a Sikh sect site which is known as Akhand Kirtani Jatha. They have their own code of conduct seperate from mainstream Sikhism
2. http://www.spiritual.comuv.com - This is a wholly unreliable and amateur site. It appears to be the site of some sect, again not mainstream Sikhism
3. http://www.tapoban.org/meat.html - This site again is an Akhand Kirtani Jatha website which has WP:Fringe ideas. In anycase their objection are already noted in the article.
4. http://www.sikhanswers.com/rehat-maryada-code-of-conduct/meat-controversy-in-the-panth/ - is a Nishkam Sewak Jatha website. Again a fringe Sikh website which is not WP:Reliable

I implore everyone to engage me here.

Thanks DeludedFan (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Unrelated lines in Sarbloh Bibek section

The following lines mentioned in Sarbloh Bibek are completely irrelevant for the section and violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH guidelines.

Sarbloh was used by Guru Gobind Singh to prepare Amrit during the Khalsa initiation ceremony in 1699. The Khanda (a double edged knife or sword) was also made of Sarbloh. To this day Amrit Sanchar ceremonies are conducted using a bata (bowl) and Khanda (sword) made of sarbloh.

I have checked the sources cited for these lines and they mention about Sarbloh and not Sarbloh Bibek. Sarbloh (steel or iron) and Sarbloh Bibek (practice of eating only from iron bowls and iron plates followed by some Sikh groups) are two separate things. So, these lines should be removed from the section. If anybody has objection to the removal of above lines then we can discuss it on this talk page otherwise I will remove these lines from the article after few days.

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