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In a long discussion on Talk:Steele Dossier of whether or not the first line in the article should say "also known as the Trump–Russia dossier" (the former name of the article), Valjean jestingly suggested the article name Steele's debunked hoax dossier would find approval with some. As I read it, this was a rhetorical point not intended to hint that it would find approval with you. However, you went ahead and created it as a redirect, now being discussed at Redirects for discussion (the top entry). This after accusing Valjean of tendentiousness, among many other accusations. Creating that redirect actually is tendentious, also a violation of WP:POINT, also an egregious waste of other people's time. This, again, is a warning from an administrator. If you do something so tendentious and time-wasting again, I will block you. And if you continue to bludgeon discussions the way you did at Talk:Steele Dossier, you are likely to be topic banned from American politics. I see you say above that you intend to request G7 deletion of the redirect. That's good, even though it hasn't happened yet. The redirect has been up for several days, and you've had to be coaxed into (putatively) requesting deletion. A poor show. Bishonen | tålk 09:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC).

It's all a two way street. JzG was right and I took their advice, which I appreciate. They were the only one to actually approach me on the topic. I don't know what coaxing you are talking about, if you mean talking to like a person then yes I suppose so. You should really lighten up on these one sided warnings, they are less than helpful. PackMecEng (talk) 09:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

PME, Bishonen has an excellent sense for the gestalt of most situations. Please listen. EEng 03:45, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I dunno man, seemed to pour more fuel on the fire than actually help anything. The situation was resolved and then the warning. I am honestly not seeing it, but I accept I could be wrong. I think we have just had different experiences. PackMecEng (talk) 03:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, this is so unnecessary. Look, when you do something unwise, as you did, you may set multiple things in motion which don't all stop the instant you move to undo what you did. I used the word gestalt earlier; it means the totality of a situation that's greater than the sum of its parts; this or that detail doesn't matter. You made, as Bishonen said, a poor show. Get what you can from that evaluation and then get back to editing articles. Don't respond now. Here on this page, let's all stop. EEng 05:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

No, it's not all a two-way street. And the only user to advise you to self-revert was O3000, AFAICS, not Jzg. Bishonen | tålk 11:39, 3 August 2020 (UTC).

Then you misread the situation on the talk page. How can replying to people commenting on what I said can be taken as bludgeoning is mind boggling. Especially given that your assessment was actually after he wrote a wall of text in reply to another editor disagreeing with him. Or did you miss his personal accusations, the comments when he misused speedy delete, or the comments at the MDF? Next JzGs advice was to calm down and reassess, which I did, how do you even self-revert a page creation? Finally everything in a collaborative environment is a two way street. PackMecEng (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

That article needs to be TNT'd and restarted. So much has changed between the initial reporting in 2016 / 2017 vs now, especially with regards to the veracity of the material. There are probably many editors who deeply believe the pee tape is real. As long as that's the case, progress on that article will be limited. The ironic thing to me is that people believe the pee tape is real, despite a single shred of any kind of evidence, but say with a straight face on other articles that we can only trust RS. The NYT ultimately (just a week ago) reported the dossier to be "deeply flawed," but that's certainly not the perception you get after reading our article, which pulls from outdated and debunked stories. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Ernie, if you're still hanging your hat on the pee tape, I'm afraid your effort's all going down the drain. SPECIFICO talk 20:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that pee tape isn't very exciting. Maybe an NSFW PG-13 rating, and certainly not porn, with only two hookers, and "Trump" pays more attention to his cellphone than to them. I've got the link if you want to see it for yourself. It's on a dedicated site, not a porn site. Then compare the room and lighting with images of the suite Trump and Obama stayed in. The match is exact, so if it's a fake, it was made in that same room or one exactly like it. We may never be sure, but Moscow hookers talk to each other, and they still swear it happened. Whatever the case, it's a minor allegation compared to many of the others which have been proven true, and focusing on what is not proven, while ignoring what is proven, is very telling. -- Valjean (talk) 01:06, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Valjean Do no solicit BLP violating porno on my talk page. I cannot believe I have to actually write that. PackMecEng (talk) 01:22, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Look up the meaning of "solicit". I didn't do that, and it's not porno. Besides, you believe it's fake, right? I'm not sure, and Comey changed his doubter position to a "maybe" peeliever position after talking to Trump. That's on Trump. Imagine having a wife who might believe it. That's just wrong. -- Valjean (talk) 02:32, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Valjean Solicit ask for or try to obtain (something) from someone. I have never told someone what they can and cannot do on my talk page. You get to be the lucky first. Do no solicit BLP violating porno on my talk page. I do not care the reason, it is wildly inappropriate. PackMecEng (talk) 02:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

That's the right definition, so where do I solicit anything? I already stated that I did not solicit anything, and that the pee tape isn't even porn. You have completely misunderstood what I wrote. Please read my comment again ("I've got the link ...."). That is not an act of solicitation. In fact, it's the opposite, an offer for those who are curious to see the alleged pee tape. When people's curiosity is satisfied, their interest drops. That's what we want, because it's really not as big a deal as it's made out to be. Press sensationalism doesn't help anything. Just to be clear, there is no sexual activity by "Trump" (he is fully clothed) or the women, and it's a darkened room. One part that's fairly clear is "Trump's" short fat fingers poking his cellphone, an action we've seen many times. -- Valjean (talk) 05:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Valjean So you see no problem offering another female on the internet a video from some shady server online of two prostitutes urinating on a bed and then you go on to say that Trump was part of it. What the actual fuck man? Do you not see the multiple and massive problems with what you are doing right now? PackMecEng (talk) 05:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

"offering another female"? I wasn't aware that SPECIFICO was a female, and that is totally irrelevant. I treat all editors the same, regardless of sex, so don't make this a sexist issue. What is more worrying and a "massive problem" is that you are making such a big deal of it and not just ignoring it. It's as if you're trying to create conflict (from some humor) where there was no conflict. That's a battlefield attitude, and it doesn't make Misplaced Pages a better place. That's why we should avoid going down that path. Please don't do it. Seek to de-escalate, rather than escalate. I had no intention to cause you offense, and I'm sorry for that. -- Valjean (talk) 05:47, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Valjean So no, you see no problem with what you did? PackMecEng (talk) 05:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Valjean This is surprising. I've seen you many times defending Misplaced Pages's sourcing guidelines, praising high quality sources while criticizing low quality ones, attacking fringe theories, and decrying the evils of fake news. Now here you are promoting a shady video that mainstream sources have almost completely ignored, and which Slate (the source I did find when I googled) calls a very convincing fake. Convincing because it probably was filmed in the same room, and fake because it reflects renovations done to that room after the alleged incident occurred. And yet you suggest that it actually was Trump poking at the cellphone with "fat fingers". This seems very hypocritical and I suggest you retract some of your claims above, as they are about as Verifiable as Pizzagate. ~Awilley (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Awilley Good catch. The first mention of Trump was with quotes, indicating there is no proof it's him, but I forgot to do the same after that. Now done.

Look, three of us were engaging in a bit of humor here ("all going down the drain", "sour taste", "it's just a matter of taste" now located below), and the subject was the pee tape, which I labeled as "the alleged pee tape" above. I thought I was clear enough that we don't know if it's real, and, as the author of the Slate source states, it's a "convincing fake" (although her conclusion is just her opinion for unconvincing reasons). BTW, I have never recommended using the website that houses the tape as a source. It is clearly not a RS. Don't worry, my standards have not been lowered.

Everything was fine until PME failed to enjoy the humor and twice falsely accused me of "soliciting" "BLP violating porno", yet never apologized when shown wrong on both counts (I wasn't soliciting anything, and it's not porno). You aren't addressing those gross personal attacks and battlefield attitude, an attitude that is very destructive. That should be a high priority for you.

I thought we were all adults here and didn't expect this oversensitive reaction or attempt to create a fire out of nothing. Why don't you address that? Peace-seeking is much better. This is really pedestrian and petty. I'm amazed you'd even get involved. You're better than this. If it's any comfort, I'm sorry I ever mentioned it here. I had no idea that my comments would get such a reaction. I now know better than to do that on this page. I suspect that if the subject had been Bill Clinton or Biden, this wouldn't have happened. PME would have joined in the fun at their expense, but Trump is protected here, so that didn't happen. I inadvertently struck a nerve.

If you want to do some good here, don't take sides. Address the personal attacks made against me. I've already gotten the point to be more careful on PME's talk page. -- Valjean (talk) 15:48, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, my "sour taste" comment was an accidental pun not meant as humor. You both made mistakes. Time to end it. Jehovah. O3000 (talk) 15:56, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh! I didn't catch that. I thought you were humorous. Thanks for the clarification. -- Valjean (talk) 16:31, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, Pack has a point here. Left a sour taste in my mouth. O3000 (talk) 01:41, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

LOL! I can only imagine...it's just a matter of taste... -- Valjean (talk) 02:32, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk about poor show! The admin who blocked you for "incivility" drops the F bomb in an edit summary on someone's talk page, which is not able to be changed? Bish, sure, it's subjective, but if you don't know that someone welcomes such language please try to avoid it in the future, or keep it to your pages. Mr Ernie (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you really think you are helping Pack? O3000 (talk) 00:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

• Stop that! Stop it! Now, look! No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say 'Jehovah'. EEng 03:33, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• I also "failed to enjoy the humor" you guys were engaging in, User:Valjean, and I do believe that those kinds of jokes are mostly funnier to males than females. Why have your pee fun on a woman's talkpage in particular (and then accuse her of oversensitivity)? Take it somewhere else. Please. The atmosphere all over the project could do with being a little less boyish, if it comes to that. Bishonen | tålk 17:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC).
  • Yes. And male or female, it is also generally poor form to criticize someone because they "failed to enjoy the humor", when it is unsolicited and on their own talk page and you're typically clashing with them in other areas. It comes across as baiting. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
    • I'm beginning to understand that now. I make no difference in my treatment of editors based on sex, so sexism is not a factor and was far from my thoughts. It was a total matter of chance that this just happens to be a female's talk page. I'll seek to be more sensitive in the future, even if that is a sexist approach.

This is really strange. I try to rid myself of sexism and feel I am being encouraged to be sexist. That's regressive. Feel free to help me understand this better (maybe on my talk page or by email). I can always learn more.

BTW, I eagerly await the reception of any policy which forbids humor on private talk pages, especially boyish humor. I would sorely miss EEng's wonderful sense of humor. -- Valjean (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

A big apology to everyone!

Something I lost track of in all of the above was a lack of sensitivity on my part. I got defensive and failed miserably. Tact has never been my strong point, and emotional intelligence is practically nonexistent in my family, where Asperger syndrome affects certain members, including my son, and I suspect myself to some degree. My wife's family is much worse off in that regard. In my family, we rarely spoke of emotions. I still have a hard time discussing them. They were suppressed to avoid punishment, and I was spanked until I could exercise enough self-control to stop crying. That first happened when I was about nine years old, so daily spankings were my lot in life from the time I was about three years old and possibly earlier, as my mother believed in spanking babies. My mother spanking me is one of my earliest memories. She always carried a rubber hose (about 1/2" x 8") in her purse. After getting spanked at school, I would then get spanked at home. I'm damaged goods in many ways. I'm a preacher's kid and do not recommend a strong, conservative, religious upbringing. These are possible reasons, but not excuses.

I want to apologize to everyone, not just the females here. I forgot that being kind is more important than being right. I am not exempt from the common failing that "a man is right in his own eyes." (Proverbs 21:2 NIV) Right or wrong, I should have been more sensitive. Please forgive me. -- Valjean (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Well stated. Humor used to be illegal here. Now accepted – within bounds. An old story, kinda related:

Man is invited to a long running dinner party by a friend and accepts. Sitting at the dinner table, a few sheets of paper are distributed. It contains numbered jokes. Someone says #14, and everyone laughs. Someone says #23, and everyone laughs. Man whispers to his friend – what’s going on? Friend explains that you pick a joke that you like and state the number. So, he says: “number 8”. No one laughs. Asks his friend what happened. Friend says: “It’s not what you said; it’s how you said it”.

Humor is extremely valuable – but sometimes difficult without facial muscles and there is a circumstance -- a time and a place. May it never leave society. O3000 (talk) 01:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Valjean First chance I have had to really sit down today. Thank you for the apology. PackMecEng (talk) 03:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Tucker Carlson talk page

That wasn't a forum post. It was directly related to every recent discussion on the Tucker Carlson talk page, including some that have already been archived. What do you need, references that cite those discussions? Try not to censor legitimate talk page subjects. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: That was personalizing a content dispute see WP:PERSONAL. Making vauge and wild accusations against other editors is not what a article talk page is for. Also that is not what censoring is. For reference the edit they are referring to is me reverting their post here. PackMecEng (talk) 19:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely not. It wasn't personal at all. And it's not a content dispute - it's a point about his position in EVERY content dispute in that article. I have no idea who that guy is. I've barely interacted with him. But I did look through that talk page and archives, and the POV bent is obvious. I'm not sure why no one else has pointed that out. It's ridiculously plain-as-day. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Again discussing personal matters or speculating their motives is not acceptable on article talk pages. It is against WP:PERSONAL and WP:AGF. If you wish to do that the appropriate venue would be a place like WP:ANI, WP:AN, or WP:AE. Again, completely inappropriate for an article talk page. PackMecEng (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion is literally about that talk page. Literally none of what you just cited applies. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:30, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: Article talk pages are discussing content not personal problems with other editors. Please see the links above and WP:TPNO. PackMecEng (talk) 19:32, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Stop ignoring what I wrote above. There's nothing personal about it. It's entirely about content. What's with this tag-teaming? Do you two often work together with this purpose? Honest question. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: I have said my peace, though I will say at this point it looks like you are at WP:3RR. PackMecEng (talk) 19:36, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

JimKaatFan, nice of you to accuse me of tag-teaming without having the courtesy to ping me. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 19:38, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

And yet, here you are. Amazing. JimKaatFan (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

JimKaatFan, yes I am because you have made this mess going to loads of different pages. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 19:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Emir of Misplaced Pages Nice of you to accuse me of accusing you of a DS vio without having the courtesy to ping me. Just sayin'. soibangla (talk) 22:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey Soibangla, hows it going? PackMecEng (talk) 22:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey, we're havin' fun now! soibangla (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Every day above ground is a good day! PackMecEng (talk) 22:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Criminal use

You made two reverts with the summary "not this again" on content that is under active discussion. Please provide a valid rationale and join the discussion when reverting. –dlthewave ☎ 12:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@Dlthewave: As you know this has come up many times over the years to add each individual use of a particular firearm in a crime. Each time it has been found to be undue unless a particular event had an impact on the history of the firearm. Things like getting it banned or the like.. This was being discussed on the project page when you reverted. Please seek consensus for your new addition. Thanks. PackMecEng (talk) 14:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Where exactly is this “under active discussion?” I see little beyond edit summaries before recently, and only a slight expansion of those edit summaries on the subject. I have seen extensive past discussion that suggests that PME’s edit summary is fairly accurate; this is an old chestnut. Qwirkle (talk) 15:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Current consensus is to decide on a case-by-case basis which is to be done at the article talk page. There is no requirement that it have a specific impact (I don't know why this language keeps coming up, it's not a policy or guideline) and these lists are often included even when there's no specific effect on the weapon. I opened discussions at Talk:Ruger 10/22 and Talk:Winchester Model 1200 before PackMecEng's reverts, so please join the discussions there. Repeated reverts without an appropriate explanation are unlikely to stand. –dlthewave ☎ 16:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

D/S Refresh

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in governmental regulation of firearm ownership; the social, historical and political context of such regulation; and the people and organizations associated with these issues. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Misplaced Pages's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

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Just a reminder since I don't see that you've been made aware in the past year. –dlthewave ☎ 16:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC)