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| == Add British Academy Television Awards == | |||
| It seems rather odd to have one nation's television awards in the shape of the Emmys, and not to include others. Can I suggest ] are added to the regular list. It would help avoid ] where nationalistic nonsense over "our television is better than anyone else's" is the reaction of some. There is much ignorance in that section on what the British Academy Television Awards actually ''is'': it is not just British productions, but co-productions, etc too (which is why some programmes are up for awards at both the Emmys and BATAs too). I fail to see any significant difference between the two, outside the silly nationalistic one at any rate. - ] (]) 16:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Kingsif. ''']''' (] • ]) 21:48, 4 August 2020 (UTC) <s>'''Oppose''' In support of my rationale at the ITN/C nomination that the Emmys are more important than their British counterparts, I offer as evidence the nominees for Best Drama at last year's awards: | |||
| :Emmys- ''']''', ], ], ], ], ], ] | |||
| :BAFTA TV- ''']''', ], ], ] | |||
| :If you can't already tell, clicking through to the Misplaced Pages articles or researching statistics on these shows should give you a sense of the gaps in popularity and significance. Do the same for any category in any year and I think you will find a similar pattern. The reality is, for better or worse, the epicenter of English-language TV is very skewed towards Hollywood. Additionally, as I argued in the ITN/C nom, television simply has less long-term cachet than film, so I find it reasonable to only have one TV awards ceremony at ITN/R. ''']''' (] • ]) 17:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)</s> | |||
| ::I'm not sure what the list of the nominations is supposed to prove, but it's fairly clear that '''all''' those programmes are broadcast internationally. The rather blinkered "US is best on this" is just too tiresome to take seriously, particularly as BAFTA TV include co-productions, and many of the programmes in both sets of nominations are crewed and acted by professionals from both Britain and the US, as well as further afield (The Crown, for example, listed as an Emmy nom if a UK-US production, GoT was partly produced and filmed in N Ireland, etc). That such a narrow view is being used to block what would only be one ITN entry a year is a bit silly. - ] (]) 20:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::It’s to demonstrate that the most popular and well-known television shows in the Anglosphere (and perhaps the world) are typically found at the Emmys and not the BAFTA TV Awards. I don’t care which country is “best” as that’s too subjective to seriously discuss. ''']''' (] • ]) 20:17, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::SO that fact that UK-US co-productions are nominated at both the Emmys '''and''' BAFTA TV means we should list only the US? Neither BAFTA TV nor Emmy (nor, for that matter Oscars and BAFTA film) take any account of "most popular and well-known" as part of their criteria: they look for the best. Popular or well-known ≠ best. - ] (]) 20:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I don’t understand how your first sentence relates to my argument. And it is not the job of ITN to decide what TV shows are best. We can only assess significance and extent of global news coverage, as per ]. ''']''' (] • ]) 21:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::My comment should be fairly clear, given the context of what you say. But, there again, your postings are self-contradictory, so I'm not entirely sure what your !vote is based on. - ] (]) 21:19, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Sorry, I’m still not clear on what you meant. I apologize for any contradictions or ambiguities in my replies. I’d be happy to try and clarify anything I wrote that was confusing, as I did not intend to mislead. ''']''' (] • ]) 21:28, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Well worth reading what Kingsif writes below. Basically every single objection of yours is neatly dismissed, leaving a simple "US TV is better than UK TV" opinion. ] <small>(])</small> 21:43, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Agreed. ''']''' (] • ]) 21:48, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' British television is recognized around the world as much as US television; just because it may not be watched as highly on first broadcast does not make it less significant. As we recognize the BAFTA film awards there's no reason not to already recognize the TV ones as well, as long as the article has the same quality update as we expect for award ceremonies (more than just of awards, some details on the ceremonies). --] (]) 20:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Masem. As for "the epicenter of English-language TV is very skewed towards Hollywood", I think the BBC might have something to say about that.-- ] (]) 20:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' "popular" programmes don't equate to "quality" programmes. BAFTA selects the latter, and there's no shame in that. ] <small>(])</small> 21:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above. And I'm going to add something below, but can we at the very least acknowledge that the BAFTA Film awards are in ITN/R, thus WP considers ] as an awarding body to be notable - some of the "arguments" at the ITN/C were just slating BAFTA. ] (]) 21:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ** I would just be careful that we don't say ''all'' BAFTA awards are notable for ITNR just yet. For example, while I know I would speak for the video games project that the ] are one of the industry's top awards, we here at ITNC have generally not recognized VGs yet because broadly we don't have an award that has the same long-term implications as the BAFTAs in film/TV, Emmys, or Oscars. --] (]) 22:46, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ***Agreed - for clarity, I've added a wikilink to ], as the body and not individual awards. ] (]) 22:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|Further comments by Kingsif}} | |||
| The 'examples' listed above by {{u|Bzweebl}} (sorry for calling you out, it's for reference) are being used inaccurately. First, the nomination schedules are different, so it's hard to compare, but just looking at ''Chernobyl''{{'}}s sweep at ''last year's'' Emmys and ''this year's'' BAFTAs suggests that it would be more accurate to judge the ceremonies with such a gap - which also covers all the US-UK co-productions, the dominant force in TV nowadays, that air in the UK later than in the US. For this matter, I'll point out that ''Game of Thrones'' ''was'' nominated for a BAFTA this year, showing that it qualifies, but not in a major category (maybe all the BAFTA juries just didn't like it, maybe British TV has a lot to offer that the US audience by default don't know about) and so was ''The Crown'' (which it has for the past three years, natch). Equally, ''Killing Eve'' took more noms at the Emmys this year than the BAFTAs. | |||
| Then the matter of {{tq|popularity and significance}} is brought up. OK, shows not aired in the US will have a much lower viewership - which is perceived as being less popular - by default. The UK is much smaller. They're also going to covered in the US press and likely Misplaced Pages much less, because if they're not shown nobody is going to write about them and we know the disparity in entertainment articles still exists on WP. Given that the UK has television channels dedicated to foreign programming (e.g. Walter) on satellite and not just the internet, the BAFTAs are arguably more international because they have that pool to choose from. Both ceremonies are theoretically restricted to their national productions, having broadened over the years and now basically nominating the same things. This also brings up the concept of exceptionalism, the idea that even though there will be TV shows not broadcast in one of the two countries (and vice versa), it is the ones not shown in the US that are by default second rated, an irrational suggestion. Especially since a lot of US TV shows are UK co-productions that maybe don't get a look in at the BAFTAs because there are some exclusively British productions that are just better. Apparently the idea that UK-only shows get lots of noms ''because they deserve them'' hasn't been considered, instead written off as 'well I haven't heard of it so it can't be good' or, crucially, 'they only got a nom because US shows couldn't', which isn't even true. And the users making that argument are plucking it from their own imaginations, since I don't think any of them are on the BAFTA juries. We're not here to decide if the selection process is solid, but if the ceremony is notable. | |||
| On that note, I have to reiterate from the ITN/C that US outlets were covering the BAFTAs. ''Deadline'' reported on the results before the BBC, i.e. the channel that broadcasted the ceremony, did. ''Variety'' was . Jeff Goldblum, Billy Porter, and Matthew McConaughey presented awards - yeah, they're going to show up for a minor clip show in another country any day, right? And this is not to touch on the internationalist of the British TV industry. While the biggest of US productions obviously reach many corners of the world, British TV does the same but also takes its smaller shows - across kids, daytime, soaps, news, and comedy - too. The BAFTA TV ceremony itself is a major event on the industry calendar, more reputable than the NTV's (the UK's National Television Awards, which are truly exclusive and focus way too much on soaps and variety), and usually just as glamorous and well-attended as the Emmys. This year, it still had a physical presence, with many of the presenters being together at Television Studio (good idea? who knows), while the Emmys will be entirely virtual. I'm not commenting on the difference, because we're not the organizers, either. Really, both the Emmys and BAFTA TV awards are equally notable as the complementary ceremonies for the dual TV giants. ] (]) 21:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| :*These are very convincing arguments. I have changed my !vote accordingly. ''']''' (] • ]) 21:48, 4 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Conditional''' ITNR adds should follow approval at ITNC when possible, as the visibility is greater and thus represents a more accurate read of consensus. Given there is a current nom open for this event (leaning support), we should follow the result there. ''<small>]</small>'' 17:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::I believe the American and British entertainment production environments are both quite significant. There is no possible way to objectively declare which, if either, produces higher quality programming. Both distribute globally and find healthy audiences on foreign shores. The distinction between the Emmy and BAFTA to me is that the Emmy awards those programs '''aired''' in the US, where the BAFTA is concerned with programs '''produced''' in the UK. Given the prominence of streaming services and their thirst for content, quality British programming will find its way to the American airwaves (so to speak) and be eligible for Emmys. Quality American programming will never be eligible for the BAFTAs (yes, yes, joint productions aside). This definitively means the BAFTAs are drawing from a smaller pool of potential contenders and would thus potentially exclude more quality programming. Consider recent top BAFTA winners like ], ] and ], which were eligible for but not even nominated for Emmys. Top winner ] was nominated, but lost to a program ineligible for BAFTA. - - - If we are to argue in favor of promoting British ''voters'', I would beg that the same could be applied around the world. No country has the best TV viewers. If we are to argue in defence of those British programs that don't make it across the pond, what then of the ]? ''<small>]</small>'' 19:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::You make some good points, but haven't addressed one key thing: if I can write another paragraph to lay it out fully? Besides the intricacies of the eligibility - which I feel ultimately comes down to personal opinions on if some national shows are as good as other national shows, and here our opinions evidently differ, I won't debate further on that matter - we (Misplaced Pages) are here to determine if the (recurrence of) the ceremony/awards merely happening is notable. Nominees and winners will change every year, but the event to be posted won't. So, whatever your views (well thought out as they are, shown above) on the quality of nominees, we can objectively judge how the various ceremonies are treated both in their own country and abroad. The BAFTA TV awards and the Emmys are in their own league. The best comparative for other award shows I've personally seen, like in Spain and France (I could only comment on search results for others, which I'm sure you can find yourself), is the UK's National Television Awards (mentioned above). That is, they're hyped enough for a week that you remember it exists, most people don't care enough to watch but might be interested in the winners, it focuses on popularity, and is not covered abroad. ] (]) 20:13, 5 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Valid points. What was underlying my thoughts and unsaid is that all of these awards are somewhat trite and hopelessly subjective affairs, such that ''we should post as few of them as possible''. Given the two, I prefer the Emmys. ''<small>]</small>'' 11:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Match the Emmys'''. I don't have strong opinions on whether either of them should be on ITNR, but if one is, so should the other be. They're equally big deals in English-language television. The problem with these awards has been getting good enough prose article updates, not just tables of winners. ] ] 10:10, 6 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong Oppose''' is this for real? The item and now here in the shadows it's being deemed noteworthy enough for automatic inclusion in perpetuity? I don't think so. We've a "tradition" (right or wrong) of expecting a topic to pass ITN/C at least once before turning up here. Try again next year please. --] (]) 10:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Andrew_Davidson}}, {{ping|Amakuru}}, {{ping|Ktin}} who opposed the nom at ITN/C on notability grounds to have a voice here too --] (]) 10:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::Er, you can't do that - it's textbook ]. ] (]) 12:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Easily passes ] targeted at users who had opposed the exact same topic at ITN/C just a few weeks before. I didn't notify the supporters because they were here already. --] (]) 13:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Strange. There are 5 supports here, and there were 9 at the ITN/C nom. And one of the supports here opposed the ITN/C: that's 5 more users you could have pinged. ] (]) 22:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Pinging {{ping|Albertaont|John M Wolfson|SchroCat|331dot|130.233.3.21}} those who left comments at the ITN/C who weren't invited and haven't already commented here. ] (]) 23:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Cool, thanks Kingsif. --] (]) 23:19, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Appreciate the ping Kingsif! ] (]) 23:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thanks for countering the blatant canvassing, Kingsif. As to comments like "is this for real": yes, of course it is. Countering knee-jerk bias is a positive step, particularly when it's based on fallacies like "the item failed to gain consensus at ITN/C" - deeply untrue: there ''was'' a consensus to post, but it was stale before it developed fully. If the open unthinking bias of "US only" is the norm, (and it obviously is) then such fallacies are to be expected in its defence, I guess. - ] (]) 13:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Blatant canvassing? Oh come on, maybe ] a little? Seriously there was a wall of support here with no rep from the people who had opposed the unsuccessful nom at ITN/C so I pinged them. --] (]) | |||
| :::::::Seriously {{ping|SchroCat}} please describe the methodology you used to determine that my ] was canvassing for vote stacking. It would be the second time in as many days taht someone who knows nothing about me has claimed the ability to determine my motives and intentions. --] (]) 21:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When someone pings everyone from one side of a discussion, it is ''de facto'' canvassing. Your explanation here that you actually wanted to ping everyone from one side of the discussion is doubling down on it. Please don’t ping me to this again; given the knee-jerk opinions of “US only”, and the use of open fallacies to reinforce the cultural bias, it’s not an area I wish to participate in any further. - ] (]) 21:56, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Cool so you agree you have no idea what my intentions or motivations were, and then doubled down on whining about "us-bias". Thanks for the blatant ] --] (]) 22:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per LaserLegs. This awards ceremony simply isn't of the same prestige or importance as the others mentioned - it focuses quite a lot on British TV, and it's fairly obvious that we shouldn't include awards ceremonies from every single country around the world, that would be bloat. The argument was presented that given that we are presenting the BAFTAs (british film awards) and the Emmys (US TV awards), we logically have to also present the British version of TV awards. That logic doesn't follow, since the BATAs are of less importance than both the BAFTAs and the Emmys. The item failed to garner consensus for running this year, and it would be very wrong to therefore slip it in for next year by the back door, by declaring it ITN/R. — ] (]) 10:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:Just to add to the above point, I can see where the idea of "Matching the Emmys" comes from, and as a Brit myself I am usually completely onboard with attempts to combat US-centricism on the Wiki. However, it should be based on facts and evidence, not just an ] approach. Does anyone have any evidence that these awards are even remotely comparable to the Emmys in global notability? Just to look at one example, the page views of our articles for the 2019 Emmys vs the 2019 BAFTA TV awards: . Discounting spikes, on most average days the Emmys page gets between 1000 and 1200 views, while the BAFTA TV awards page usually gets somewhere between 80 and 110 views. That's an entire order of magnitude difference, and far more than can be explained just by considering the relative populations of the two countries. I don't have any figures for global TV audiences, but I would predict something similar. The Emmys are viewed worldwide, while the BAFTA TVs are mainly a British thing. Would be interested to see any counter-evidence to this, in terms of concrete facts and figures. And to counter Kingsif's reply to Bzweebl, "shows not aired in the US will have a much lower viewership" - but that's the point. It doesn't have a global reach. — ] (]) 12:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::* I think you missed the point to that comment, {{u|Amakuru}}, which was that the US has a much larger population than the UK, and so the most-viewed shows in each country will have very disparate stats. 1 million is a good TV audience figure in the UK, in the US it is poor. (The equivalent 'good' in the US is about 10 million.) In June 2020 the peak TV viewership for a single broadcast in the UK was for football, at 4.1 million (), while for the week of June 8 (the only one I could find) the US peak was 9.4 million (): in a week the LA Times had "steep viewership decline" because of no sports. The disparity is real and big. The same applies to the Misplaced Pages pages that you're using as a metric for popularity: more Americans = more people who can watch the Emmys = more WP Emmy pageviews. That's why I pulled on international media - the exact {{tq|evidence that these awards are even remotely comparable to the Emmys in global notability}} that your comment suggests doesn't exist is something discussed above, so it looks like you selectively ignored it. But, yes, in the US it gets rather comparable coverage with the Emmys. ] (]) 22:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::*I've now read the middle part of the comment, about global viewership of the awards ceremonies. Neither are usually available to watch outside of their respective broadcast nation. This year, because the Emmys are completely virtual, it's reported they will be broadcast online. But the BAFTAs didn't do that, so there's no available comparison. We'll have to take the media coverage of the awards at face value. ] (]) 22:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I agree that this proposal is absurd when the most recent nomination failed to get posted. This demonstrates that scrutiny is needed and it shouldn't go through on the nod. In any case, I don't see why this award should get special treatment when it is so clearly promotional in nature. It represents the vested interests of old media which is losing ground to the new. I myself am watching YouTube increasingly because the content on the old broadcasting networks is stale and samey. ]🐉(]) 10:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :*It failed as stale, with a greater than 2:1 support:oppose ratio. It was just not being attended to. The rest of your reason is literally just "I don't like TV". ] (]) 22:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Close as not added''' as not posted this year. Supporters can try again next year. ] (]) 12:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose'''. Not significant to consider adding as a recurring news item (recurring) on the homepage. That said, an unrelated exploratory effort should be undertaken to see if there are any new media awards that we have not represented, and consider inclusion if notable. This is building on one of the users' comment from upstream. Good luck. ] (]) 17:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per above and in particular GreatCaesarsGhost. I don't think that the fact that BATA has co-British-productions makes up for the very British and non-international nature of these awards. ] (]) 22:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :*Which of GCG's comments? Because he ended up conceding something along the lines of "TV isn't that notable so I think we should pick BAFTAs or Emmys, and I prefer the Emmys"... ] (]) 22:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' this appears to be dead in the water. Somehow, without any logic at all, the banal "Emmys" is a shoo-in for ITNR, while the BAFTAs don't cut it. If we needed an example of systemic bias, this is it. Close this down someone, it's really not a good look for Misplaced Pages to continually promote this bias. ] <small>(])</small> 22:57, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:As much as I wish things were otherwise, the reality is that the US is a bigger country than we are, and its culture and influence has a global reach which far exceeds the difference in population. Despite the loss of political influence since the ], Britain still punches above its weight in many respects, but I don't see the BAFTA TV awards as one of them. It isn't obvious to me that they are of similar importance to the Emmys. — ] (]) 10:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given the Americentric bias of Western Pop Culture (especially with television), it's natural that American ceremonies in that field take priority over those of other countries (barring, of course, international stuff like Eurovision). If we really must post other countries' awards, it should be those of India if they have them, with Bollywood and all. – ] (] • ]) 23:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:Funny that many international major roles and movies are actually fulfilled by UK individuals, even pretending to be yanks. Like good ol' ] who most yanks didn't even realise was English. And most of the cast of 24. It's all about the yanks but yet it's not. Funny. ] <small>(])</small> 23:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *::<small>I didn't realize ] is English until I read he fooled the producers of ] during his audition. You Brits really excel at ''acting'' like us...--] (]) 01:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :*{{ec}} Point of information: Bollywood isn't just TV, and it does have two awards in ITN/R. As a personal response, I find {{tq|American ceremonies in that field take priority over those of other countries}} to be objectionable, I'm sure you've read why above already ;) ] (]) 23:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Weak Oppose''' Different point, which is that TV seems to be dying, take a look at ratings for these things year-on-year. Instead of adding another one to counteract the Emmy's, I would say in a few years, just drop that as well. Its natural that as media evolves, things get dropped from wiki as much as gets added in. I know this doesn't count as a reliable source, but I'm assuming very few friends even here watch Emmy's anymore, or just less and less. ] (]) 23:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *: I agree with you. And, I think that is roughly what Andrew is saying as well, and I briefly picked up on, in my comment. We should really be investing our efforts in identifying what that next generation events are. E.g. Are these the virtual gaming championships? Are these the short form video awards etc etc. The problem is some of our attributions of importance still flows from the Cinema / TV age - which is alright, but, the world is for sure evolving. Cheers and Good luck. ] (]) 23:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :*Stats for Al's point: With the exception of a massive spike in 2013 (ironically an unpopular ceremony), viewership of the Emmys has declined over the last 10 years. ] (]) 00:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Yup. Seems like the Oscars are having the same issue as well. . I would venture a guess to say that the chart for broadcast / network TV viewership would be similar as well. More reasons for us to accelerate our search for new-media events. Cheers. ] (]) 00:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::*While viewership may be declining, it's still not actually low. It's going to be a long time before any new media event gets anything like those viewing figures - and decades until it would reach the same level of notability. So to {{re|Albertaont|Ktin}} because entertainment is such a big part of most people's lives it would be remiss to not include appropriate events at ITN/R, and while some may prefer listing e.g. the most-viewed show and film every year or audience awards, there are no entertainment events bigger than the Academy and British Academy's ceremonies for TV and film - and certainly none that try to be as quality-focused to establish true acclaim and excellence in the arts. I.e. it's not right to exclude the arts, and the majors are the ones to 'start with' - this is the only major not ITN/R. ] (]) 00:51, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* "Decades until it would reach the same level of notability" ... That's precisely the notion that I want us to challenge. When we have not identified the disruptors, it is hard to say decades. What if that disruption has already occurred, and its just that we are oblivious to it. E.g. Take eGames - What if some of the gaming events are more "notable" than let's say the Ashes (using this as an example, only because this page has that name quoted), and we are oblivious to it because our sense for notability flows down from the TV / Newspaper world and we have taken that as-is to the online world. But, anyways, I think I am digressing from this specific add / removal discussion. Cheers and Good luck. ] (]) 01:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *Want to beat TV-centric English-language news coverage bias? This won't fly, but post some ] awards shows. Those shows routinely get bigger audiences than British or Indian TV(!) worldwide. ] is a real thing in the 2010s (and 2020) but ITN is stuck in bullshit US vs UK drama to even recognize that. ] (]) 12:58, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :*] - this uncited article for a ceremony that regularly doesn't present half of its awards? Or ]? Oversaturation isn't a good look in awards. Anyone with Netflix knows there's a lot of Korean TV, but it's mostly soapy (even The Good Doctor) and overhyped (random example: The Producers) and producing infinite sequel series. There's a reason the Premios Platinos have a better rep than the TVyNovela awards. Korea has (at least) 8 national award ceremonies for TV, and another 7 made up of networks ranking their own shows: that ''is'' self-aggrandizing. No apparent notability in these ''award ceremonies'', which is an ITN requirement (and one of the main ITN/R focuses). After US and UK, you're looking at Spanish TV and Nordic Noir in terms of impact, quality, etc. ] (]) 13:28, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :**Meh. Korean TV has a bigger audience in 2020 than Spanish, Belgian, Slovakian or Belizean TV combined. But yes, their awards culture is different from the West. Who knew? ] (]) 13:37, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::*The TV audience is kind of irrelevant. It's about the award ceremony being notable, and while TV audience is one metric, a bigger one is the impact and prestige, right? That's what gets it in the news, that's what makes the ceremony as its own event notable. There's nothing wrong with award ceremonies being different: the BAFTAs don't have commercials and have only one advertising partner, while advertising is really an integral part of the Emmys. It's that the set-up of the Korean award shows just makes them by default have no impact or prestige even on their own TV network. They're so evidently unimportant. If anything, that's more argument to add the BAFTAs: they demonstrate renown like the Emmys where other TV cultures just haven't mastered it. ] (]) 20:16, 9 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Given that this is EN.wikipedia.org, I do not see the need to necessarily focus on awards or ceremonies that do not have routine coverage in the non-English media from an ITN standpoint; in terms of having a standalone article, absolutely, let's have them as long as we can source them and we should not shy away from them, but readers here coming to the front page are come from places where English is a principle language and thus where we can presume that the news is coming to them in English in the primary or a major secondary format. Having main page ITN items on events that are just simply not covered by any English source at all is tricky to include, much less as a recurring event (exceptions made for RDs but because those are "easy" to pass). So I think trying to argue "but we don't cover these Korean awards so why should we cover the British ones" is not a great argument here. To stress, we do cover non-English events that get routine coverage in English press like the Indian Premier League, La Liga, the Berlin Int'l Film Festival, and so on, and this is not to limit what can be done in mainspace because we can make articles that only use foreign language sources. But ITN we can be a bit more selective to what is going to be of interest to English-comprehending readers. --] (]) 17:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::FWIW, most audiences of Korean dramas (who aren't Korean) consume the shows with English subtitles... or English dubbing on cellphones. You'd need to understand English to watch K-dramas. K-dramas are campy and are mostly for women, but could argue its audience is (sorry North Koreans you can't watch). And its audiences are required to understand (and read very fast in some cases) English, just like American and British ones. | |||
| ::I guess the point here is if one is making the argument that U.S. TV is big then UK TV is second-biggest but with quite a far distance so if we're posting the Emmys that nobody cares about, we'd post about the TV BAFTAs as well... that's not readily apparent at least in 2020. One could argue British cinema, literature and music are big globally, that's why you can argue for posting the movie BAFTAs, whatever book awards UK does and the Brit Awards, but for the TV BAFTAs, it's a stretch. ] (]) 18:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::While audience size can play a role, for ITN its still about the coverage, and again, as en.wiki, what it gets in English sources for featuring on the main page ITN. Maybe the Korean TV shows draw a billion people when you factor in those that watch with subs but if narely a drop is mentioned in English RSes, its not really news for the en.wiki ITN main page. (This is basically why we don't simply use popularity, viewership, or similar counts as a sign of notability, because that doesn't always mean good sourcing follows). --] (]) 18:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not disputing that, but no one's making this argument after seeing boatloads upon boatloads of wall-to-wall coverage on The Boat Race watched by billions of people.... which I incidentally didn't see on English language sources for the TV BAFTAs. Kingsif is actually right on Korean awards shows. They probably didn't copy the post-WWII awards shows in the West because maybe they were too busy ]. Again, different culture from what Caucasians are used to. Even pan-Asian cultural events are not that widely followed, probably because Asian countries hate each other for millennia. Well, we can still content ourselves with late breaking European election coverage in ITN. ] (]) 19:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. We need fewer recurring items, not more, so this would be a move in the wrong direction; I also don't believe this event is of such compelling significance that it needs to be on this list. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Anything to keep ITN from turning into a doom and gloom ticker. ] 15:24, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| **I'd also like to add, from {{user|Kingsif}} in the section below, "the arts are really important in everyday life, TV especially...it will always be of interest and in the news, this prevents the whole 'but TV isn't a disaster I don't care' discussion every year and lets ITN/C discuss quality if it gets nommed." ] 16:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' – ITN has slowed to a crawl. Per Kingsif and Calidum, let's give more non-sport nominations a chance. --- ]&]]) 17:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Remove Emmys == | |||
| Given the number of comments (in the thread about including BAFTA TV) that TV awards are only of lightweight relevance, overtaken by other forms of awards (for gaming, etc), there seems no justifiable basis for only including the awards of one country, despite other countries having larger audiences, or other ceremonies nominating/awarding to the same programmes. An overt US bias is the only reason I have seen to include Emmys at all. I propose these should be deleted from the ‘recurring’ list. - ] (]) 11:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support removal''' as nominator. - ] (]) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given that Emmys also recognize streaming outlets (Netflix/Hulu), they have found a way to make themselves relevant to modern programming. Given this is en.wiki, American and British television have the largest impact on our readers of any other national television media, and Emmys are globally recognized, so it makes no sense to eliminate them. --] (]) 13:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| **Ditto the BAFTAs, but the bias still determines we should only post the US awards, regardless of any other arguments. - ] (]) 14:19, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ***Which is why I think the logic in the BAFTA discussion is crazy. It would be one thing if we had 5-6 different English-based TV award shows to pick from, but with only really two, there's no reason to discriminate between the Emmys and BAFTA (and there's zero reason to not cover television awards , the logic against that makes no sense). --] (]) 14:28, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ****It makes sense when viewed from the perspective of cultural (US) bias. We either acknowledge there is more than one country producing television programmes by having more than one awards ITN, or we show none. - ] (]) 14:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *****The other way to see it, and this is what I was trying to get at later in the BAFTA discussion, is that as the ITN at en.wiki, we focus on English-speaking specific news, we are not require to be as "global" as our main space pages should be. When it comes to television, that pretty much means that yes US television will be heavily favored but for good reason, because that's pretty much the dominant television in the English-speaking world. I'm also 100% for the BAFTAs as I fully agree British TV has just as much importance to the English-speaking world. --] (]) 15:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' no real relevance, and highly biased. Let it take its chances at ITNC. Where I believe it has failed at least once recently because no-one is interested in updating it. ] <small>(])</small> 14:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. We need more content, not less. The tit-for-tat mindset is ruining ITN. (I'm guilty of it too, but seriously, it is.) ] 15:21, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *If there's a dictionary definition of a bad faith nomination. This is it. ] (]) 15:23, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:Not at all, and not the ] either. It's been adequately demonstrated that for the most part no-one is particularly interested in updating the article, and its singular existence at ITNR is the dictionary definition of systemic bias. ] <small>(])</small> 15:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| **:LOL of course it is. Main BAFTA proponent in ITN/C and ITNR, both having the nominations rejected, the latter pretty soundly, then nominates for removal a similar item from another country. Textbook case of a bad faith nomination, yes, but probably nomination is probably justifiable as we have to do this annual discussion of removing the widely-covered Emmys (but nobody cares enough to update) here. ] (]) 15:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ***:LOL of course probably what it is probably what??? Seriously though, this proposal stands no chance because of the systemic bias in play, this hasn't been posted five times in the last decade, no-one gives a damn about it yet it'll remain forever ITNR because the yanks grossly outnumber the rest of us, and for some odd reason they all believe "their TV shows are better" or some other misguided nonsense. ] <small>(])</small> 15:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ***:Shove the accusation of bad faith where the sun doesn’t shine. The comments in above thread show many people think TV awards of declining value. That’s the basis for this thread, so don’t accuse me of bad faith. - ] (]) 15:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{cot|noise reduction. This is an active discussion of a proposal made in good faith. - ] (]) 16:03, 21 August 2020 (UTC)}} | |||
| ***:::The discussion said it was declining, but not to the point that it has to be removed from ITNR. If this was misrepresentation of what was discussed, I don't know what is. | |||
| ****:LOL bias. Cry me a Thames River. Boating klaxon!!!! ] (]) 15:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Close this discussion.''' Britishers' crying of bias are unfounded. We have The Boat Race in ITNR. ] (]) 15:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:Pathetic. ] <small>(])</small> 15:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *::That's true. This discussion is as pathetic as ]. Imagine, this is the same guy pushing for the TV BAFTAs to be posted every year yet he opposed posting a legislative election of the most powerful country on earth. If we need someone crying about bias, it's not you. ] (]) 15:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :* What an obnoxious series of posts on what was a well-intentioned thread (clearly explained and based on the comments from the thread above). Howard the duck: stop trolling. - ] (]) 15:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :** If you think this is trolling on a textbook case of a bad faith nom, report me to an appropriate drama board then. ] (]) 15:58, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::**It'd be less of a timesink if you just struck your obnoxious and irrelevant comments. ] <small>(])</small> 15:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I have less time for the dramah boards than I do idiots making accusations about things they don’t understand. Don’t accuse me of bad faith when it’s obvious you haven't got a clue about what your on about. - ] (]) 16:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Person who made bad faith nom denies making bad faith nom. Ticks all of the boxes. LOL admins you guys want to perpetuate this? ] (]) 16:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{cob}} | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I don't see "combating" "systemic bias" at the ] of ITN. If you want to post more non-sports entertainment (I do) then get more non-sports entertainment articles up to a standard to post on the main page. We've twice agreed to keep the Bundesliga in ITN/R despite it never once actually going through ITN/C or getting posted. Not really sure how this nom helps our readers. --] (]) 16:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:Interesting you bring quality up, as half the last ten Emmys have failed to be posted because of their lack of quality. There's a lot of OTHERSTUFFEXISTS going on here (Boat Race, as usual, Bundesliga etc) and no real tangible reasoning behind why the Emmys gets an indefinite free pass here. ] <small>(])</small> 16:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *::And college basketball. You still haven't told me how this nom helps our readers. --] (]) 16:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:::It is of no value to provide a biased view of the world of television with some warped impression we give our readers that somehow the Emmys are more "important" than any other TV awards. It is also of no value to continually claim this should be ITNR when it has failed to be posted as often as it has been because no-one is interested in updating it. So, back to the main event, let's reduce the dependency on OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and explain to us all why the Emmys has an indefinite free pass at ITNR. ] <small>(])</small> 16:58, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *::::<small>For Ref: , (and I did start an ITNR discussion after that one), , , , , (which led to the 2014 note on ITNR about it to affirm it should be there) --] (]) 17:11, 21 August 2020 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *::::The Emmys should stay because . -] (]) 17:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::That's a non-argument I'm afraid, ], they don't get an indefinite free pass at ITNR. This simply elevates Emmys above all other TV awards and that's simply incorrect and nothing to do with righting great wrongs, just keeping the encyclopedia encyclopedic. ] <small>(])</small> 17:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' the people calling for the Emmys to be removed above also generally seemed to think there should be less ITNR items altogether. As I stated above, the arts are really important in everyday life, TV especially, so there's no reason to take it out of ITNR: it will always be of interest and in the news, this prevents the whole 'but TV isn't a disaster I don't care' discussion every year and lets ITN/C discuss quality if it gets nommed. I also agree with Masem (and the BAFTA conversation) that both Emmys and TV BAFTAs should be included since there's no practical difference besides a few shows each way. ] (]) 16:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' We have a lot of sport and politics at ITN/R, I think we need to keep the arts represented. I support the BAFTAs being added as well, but if that doesn't happen it's not a reason to remove the Emmys.-- ] (]) 17:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' this doesn't really seem to be about the Emmys. No need to remove them regardless of what happens with the BAFTAs. ] (]) 17:54, 21 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment'''. I think I might have a way to compare these events. Humor me for a bit. What is News? As the name suggests it is NEW. So, there has to be a spike in topical interest right immediately after the day of the event. If we can measure the spikes post an event as compared to the averages, that should tell you the topical interest a news event. There are some flaws in this arguement e.g. think viral videos 'Charlie bit my finger'. But, if we rule out that these events are not one of those viral videos. i.e. Oscars, Emmys, or BAFTAs are not really viral events, they are recurring calendar events. We should be able to study this comparison. This News Index Multiplier(definition below) tells that the Emmys are just as newsworthy (or not) as the Oscars. | |||
| <sub> News Index Multiplier = Ratio of Immediate views bump to average over the 120 day window </sub> | |||
| ] (]) 01:16, 22 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {| class="wikitable" | |||
| |'''#''' | |||
| |'''Event''' | |||
| |'''Event Date''' | |||
| |'''Start Window''' | |||
| '''(60 days prior)''' | |||
| |'''End Window''' | |||
| '''(60 days post)''' | |||
| |'''Average Views''' | |||
| '''during Window''' | |||
| |'''Views Immediately''' | |||
| '''Post Event''' | |||
| |'''Multiplier''' | |||
| '''(i.e. 'News' Index)''' | |||
| |'''Source''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |1 | |||
| |] | |||
| |9/22/2019 | |||
| |7/24/2019 | |||
| |11/21/2019 | |||
| |8,105 | |||
| |323,953 | |||
| |'''39.97''' | |||
| | | |||
| |- | |||
| |2 | |||
| |] | |||
| |2/9/2020 | |||
| |12/11/2019 | |||
| |4/9/2020 | |||
| |39,444 | |||
| |1,628,668 | |||
| |'''41.29''' | |||
| | | |||
| |- | |||
| |3 | |||
| |] | |||
| |2/2/2020 | |||
| |12/4/2019 | |||
| |4/2/2020 | |||
| |3,295 | |||
| |61,099 | |||
| |'''18.54''' | |||
| | | |||
| |} | |||
| ] (]) 01:12, 22 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, see ] for "popular pages". Also remember this is an '''encyclopedia'''. Emmys are nailed on to remain ITNR forever yet no-one has given any reason why. Marvellous. ] <small>(])</small> 08:10, 22 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::I thought I gave a reason? ] (]) 08:28, 22 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: While there might be other qualitative reasons, seems like the above table makes that case quantitatively, doesn't it {{u|The Rambling Man}}? i.e. with a news index score (N120) of 40 being the same as that the Oscars, the above data tells me that it is as newsworthy (or not) as the Oscars. So, if Oscars is a good example of an event that needs to be on the ITNR listing, seems like the Emmys will fall in the same bucket. We can definitely refine the above scale, but, it seems a reasonable measure to compare events. ] (]) 16:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per SchroCat. It's a shame that he's abandoned Misplaced Pages; I'm sure he'd be eager to defend the rationale for this. We don't need to give any undue coverage to this Hollywood circlejerk.--''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 18:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' This is the only TV-related entry at ITN/R. I don't think it's undue to allow a single TV-related ITN posting each year. ''']''' (] • ]) 05:36, 10 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Per "{{tq|We need more content, not less.}}" --- ]&]]) 17:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Can anyone name the most recent winner of the top Emmy awards? Spoiler - it was the (universally panned) final season of Game of Thrones for drama and Fleabag for comedy. People who follow movies know the Oscar winners. Football fans know who won the Champions League or Super Bowl. No one cares who wins the Emmys, even if you love the shows that win. This was not always the case, but it is now. ''<small>]</small>'' 17:50, 14 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ** There are clearly people that care. I could care less who wins 90% of the sports events we post, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize their value to other parts of the world. Same with other events like Eurovision or the Grammys. I don't think "this doesn't matter to me, so let's remove it" is a strong rationale. --] (]) 18:08, 14 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *** I wasn't talking about me specifically - I meant more generally this is of lesser interest than many may perceive. I accept that Eurovision has value to others because of the clear evidence; I'm not sure that any such evidence exists for the Emmys or Grammys. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but that should be by proof and not the fiat of ITNR. This is a once very relevant event that has significantly faded...like Miss America or boxing. ''<small>]</small>'' 11:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| **** Given that the first night of the Creative Emmys had significant coverage just based on my news feed, I think its a misnomer to consider it a bygone award in this manner. I would agree that using the Miss America competition as a standard of a competition that has gone by the wayside in terms of public perception, the Emmys are NOT that. --] (]) 14:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
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