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Archives
October 2005 – July 15, 2006 July 20, 2006 – July 27, 2006 July 27, 2006 – Sept. 18, 2006 Sept. 18, 2006 – Oct. 28, 2006 Nov. – Dec. 2006

Pseudoskepticism

I think Pseudoskepticism is a valid link for several reasons: (1) This is an element of the criticism leveled at QWrs & Barrett by *many* critics including commercially uninvolved, substantial scientists (e.g. Kauffman, Pauling); (2) Barrett is reasonably a subject to be contrasted with the description of pseudoskepticism given the published analyses directly contradicting him (& QW), (3) the subject background may also reflect on QW/his critics.--I'clast 04:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Would be one of the only BLPs to link to it. Shot info 04:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

It would be the sole BLP linking to it, other than Marcello Truzzi. --Ronz 05:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Then maybe it would be good, and not bad, to link to it. I see nothing wrong with it. One can agree or disagree with its premise. It might be of interest to readers, though. Jance 06:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have a reliable published source that calls Barrett a "pseudoskeptic," we can discuss its inclusion. Otherwise, it's original research. Jokestress 10:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I needs to be sourced well enough to withstand WP:BLP. --Ronz 16:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I will note that he does indeed claim to 'be' a sceptic, or at least base his writings in it: "He says that he bases his writings in consumer protection, medical ethics, and scientific skepticism. " Also, the article makes it plain that he is an outspoken critic of what he calls "junk science", and those he complains about criticize him. Why this is not enough to use an external link (not text in the article) is mystifying.Jance 01:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

While any 'comments in the article about pseudoskepticism certainly need sourcing, that source may include descriptions of something or actions rather than just verbatim vocabulary or phrasing, and can pertain to his writings, in degree thereof, rather than just labelling him. "See also" is about relatedness and interest to the average reader, not WP:V in the text. Don't sweat it too much, there are credentialed skeptics that question Barrett's skeptical essays & objectivity, Barrett obviously sponsors/supports openly acknowledged skeptical groups - which may disagree with other skeptics, and some sources clearly speak of pseudoskepticism. I found the Characteristics of Pseudoskeptics section is actually a good quick scorecard for checking any series of skeptical articles/authors (could expand PS article's WP presence), where QW etc are quite notable and controversial. Obviously two confident, conflicting skeptical points of view should want to present their scorecards and analyis for review by all third parties to ensure objectivity if they are to preserve their skeptical message, identity and stature, if not automatically do so even w/o the conflict part. Do you prefer discussion sentences or "see also"?--I'clast 01:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow Jance's comment. We're discussing the inclusion of a very controversial internal link, which is included in no other wiki BLP article (other than that of a single author that popularized the term). Use of the term is defamatory. Ironically, it appears to me that if you apply the term to someone, you are guilty of being a pseudoskeptic yourself. --Ronz 01:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, if I'clast or others have a published reliable source that calls Barrett a "pseudoskeptic," we are good to go. Otherwise, it's original research and POV which should not be included. Jokestress 01:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know Wiki rules well enough, and will defer to Jokestress. However, Rontz, no - the use of the term is not defamatory. It would be considered opinion. And that was my point. Just as an aside...It amazes me that people are so willing to concede the decision-making as to who is and is not a quack to a self-appointed "quackbuster". No doubt many of these people/products are "quackery". On the other hand, where does he draw the line? What if he is wrong? How does he fix his mistake? How does he repair an individual's life or livelihood? I do not question his ability/qualifications to research or to write about his opinions generally. That, I think, is the red herring. The issue that is only implied in this article, is that one private person is attempting to usurp the power of traditional government functions in investigating and prosecuting fraud. In the US, individuals have rights as against governments. That is why we have a Bill of Rights. Dr. Barrett may find this a trivial point, but I do not think it is. Jance 03:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I've had more problems around here (QW/SB/NCAHF) with adverse (mis)quotations, constructions, and interpretations of basic WP policies with several editors than my combined edits elsewhere.

AFAIK, the only "see also" policy is Misplaced Pages:Guide to layout, "...Useful links that are not mentioned in the prose paragraphs can be added to the "see also" section near the end." "See also Put here, in a bulleted list, other articles in the Misplaced Pages that are related to this one ".--I'clast 05:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably, although your contribs to Glyconutrients is up there too (and you can add in Mercola too) :-). BTW, the link you propose is not useful. Several editors have told you so, and reverted it and explained why, yet here you are trying to suggest that it is. In the words of one I'clast "Why can't you let this go?"  ????  ;-) Shot info 06:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

You are totally ignoring my basic discussion points above (characteristics, writings vs the person, differences of textual policies vs "see also" guidelines) and making unfounded claims. You should recognize I haven't even started, I was pointing out & offering options. Re Glyconutrient & Mercola really had very little truly contested policy interpretation, just content resolution, policy education and in Glyconutrient, a real discussion finally driven by the neurologist (look up the repeated rebukes of the other, "mainstream" editor for serious attitude issues, I was looking for broader science vs just denouncing a dominant vendor).--I'clast

I'clast, I ignore your basic discussion points, because you keep appealing to (your) authority and ignoring others basic discussion point (other than what support your pushpov). Shot info 01:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a similar controversy about the "See also" section in the Debunker article. I agree with I'clast in this debate. For this very controversial person, 7 out of 10 "See also" links are still "pro-Barrett". MaxPont 12:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked for any other policy guides that specifically referenced the "see also" as I did previously, no one else has provided any here. That's not an appeal to self-authority; scatter shot accusations are not needed. Given the pro-qw reasoning here "pseudoscience" should probably go too, in case someone gets mad, lest the subject be tainted with PS.--I'clast 08:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we need some consensus before we add this in. It would be the single BLP entry linking to Pseudoskepticism, it also appears it would be at least fairly unique as a derogatory term in the See Also section of a BLP. Finally, see the final comments on the Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Pathological_skepticism discussion, where the result was to merge with Pseudoskepticism. --Ronz 18:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Since Barrett has been named one of the top twenty skeptics of the 20th century, the addition of a See also link to Pseudoskepticism is in the same category as adding the now deleted Quackery category, and the arguments for inclusion or exclusion are basically the same - they are editorial opinions not evident in the article, but added by editors who hold the opinion that the person is a pseudoskeptic. (The parallel isn't perfect, because even in articles where quackery was identified and sourced, the Quackery category was still not allowed by those promoting or protecting the quackery promoted by the article!)

No scientist, state or government anti-fraud organization, Consumer Reports (they all use him and are allied with him), or other person not involved in pseudoscientific endeavors would dream of labelling Barrett a pseudoskeptic, while just about any of his detractors would do so. It's a very POV label. Unsupported by very good sources (if it was it would be included in the article, and not as a See also link) it is a violation of BLP. If it is included in the article using very reliable sources, it could be included in the text, and the leanings (as pseudoscientists, quackboosters, producers of criticized products, whatever) of the source should also be listed to show why they call him such. -- Fyslee 20:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds ok to me. I was not aware the criteria for an external link was the same as that in text. Jance 02:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually the criteria are different, but I wasn't talking about External links, only about the See also section. There are various types of links, all with different criteria, and when applied to BLP it gets an added dimension:

• Embedded links (often as references)
• Wikilinks to other articles
• See also links (only links to other articles)
• External links
• Categories

-- Fyslee 23:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Again I do not think that pointing out the topic of "pseudoskepticism" is synonymous with labelling the author as a pseudoskeptic. Rather that some skeptics' (specific) writings may veer to various degrees into it is an occupational & reader hazard. That QW / SB don't have specific writings that exhibit a number of these characteristics is folly. Scientists Pauling (on others), Kauffman on QW/SB emphatically assert these points about conventional medicine itself and specific arguments presented in QW+. LP & KF seriously marshal technical data to support their arguments despite much misrepresentation in other circles. Pauling, dead 12+ yrs is even back at bat on cancer and (IV) vitamin C,

ABOUT: SEE ALSO LINKS: Quoting from the Misplaced Pages:Guide to layout about the See also links:

“The "See also" section provides an additional list of internal links to other articles in the Misplaced Pages that are related to this one as a navigational aid, and it should ideally not repeat links already present in the article. Mostly, topics related to an article should be included within the text of the article as free links.”

“Useful links that are not mentioned in the prose paragraphs can be added to the "see also" section.”

A general comment about links is that they should be included if they provide:

“Major connections with the subject of another article that will help readers to understand the current article more fully”

My interpretation is that the See also section should provide CONTEXT for the articles, which by the way is the impression I get from how the See also section is used in most other articles. I view the section as a pointer to related articles for the first time readers. Most editors of QW/Barrett/NCAHF are often visiting the Pseudoskepticism article. (Shouldn’t the first time readers be given that pointer too?) Note that it is OK (not ideal but acceptable) to add links in the See also section even if the link has appeared earlier.

If the restrictions in WP: BLP prevent the disputed link here, it can very well be added to the Quackwatch and Debunker article. MaxPont 09:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Defamation Lawsuits

Just after it is pointed out that Barrett has never been sued for libel except in one countersuit there appear these words: 'He explains, "I protect myself by not saying anything that isn't true."' This quotation is referenced, but it definitely does not add any fact not contained elsewhere in the article. Its use at this point introduces a pro Barrett bias. I propose that it should be removed. If you don't agree with this, just read and re read the relevant section and I think you'll see what I mean. One final comment. Dr Barrett is often discussed in a febrile atmosphere in which people get labelled 'pro' or 'anti'. Although Misplaced Pages is not a soap box, I do feel constrained to point out that I think that Stephen Barrett deserves more cheers than jeers, although he is clearly not perfect. I do hope he would not be offended by the latter comment. Robert2957 10:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Misplaced Pages is not a soap box. Barrett has undoubtedly exposed fraud and phony "treatments". As a lawyer, I am interested in his methods, more than the merits of any particular 'treatment'. That seems to also be the concern of at least one legislator. As to bias - I don't like that 'introductory' statement either. It sets a tone that is inappropriate. Jance 15:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

What legislator is that? -- Fyslee 20:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Dan Burton (R-IN), Chairman, Committee on Government Reform, has stated that it is not in the public interest for a health fraud watch group such as NCAHF to operate unrestrained and unendorsed by the government. (It is in the article on NCAHF). And, of course, Quackwatch has criticized him as "quackery's best friend in Congress". Well, maybe or maybe not - I don't know. I do know that he expressed some of the same concerns that the court in King Bio did. Jance 21:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Dan Burton --Ronz 21:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay and your point would be? Is the King Bio court similarly biased against Barrett, or in favor of questionable remedies/etc? This has nothing to do with this point. Nothing. The "Truth" of the quackery is not at issue. The method of going after it is.Jance 22:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

My point is just that he has an entry here, he's obviously notable, and we certainly want to link his name. --Ronz 22:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Then wikify it.  ;-) Jance 23:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspected as much. Maybe you should check out why he is considered by many (not just Barrett) to be quackery's best friend. I would say he makes Hulda Clark look good, but they are in different ball parks. His huge influence makes him more dangerous. There is practically no form of quackery, including the most dangerous, which he doesn't believe and support.

• Bioterrorism and the NCCAM: The selling of 'Complementary and Alternative Medicine' - Special Reports - National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine Skeptical Inquirer, March, 2002 by Dr. Kimball C. IV Atwood

• The Ongoing Problem with the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. Skeptical Inquirer, Sept. 2003, Kimball C. Atwood IV, M.D

• United States Senate Special Committee on Aging: Written Submission by Rep. Dan Burton

• Submitted rebuttal by Timothy N. Gorski, M.D., F.A.C.O.G. (plenty of references if you have a few hours - or days - to kill!)

• Swindlers, Hucksters and Snake Oil Salesmen: The Hype and Hope of Marketing Anti-Aging Products to Seniors:United States Senate Special Committee on Aging, September 10, 2001 -- Witnesses

• more

• The Politics of Autism: Lawsuits and emotion vs. science and childhood vaccines. Wall Street Journal

• Probing Edges Of Medicine -- And Reality Homeopathy Against Bioterrorism? For a Local Research Institute, Few Areas of Study Are Too Far Out. By Sandra G. Boodman, Washington Post Staff Writer, Tuesday, July 12, 2005; Page HE01

• Senator Burton was just trying to help. Part II

Happy reading! -- Fyslee 22:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, I think you missed my point. My point is not whether Burton is right or wrong. It is not whether or not he is "quackery's best friend". My point is whether or not a private individual should have governmental powers. And I believe that was the court's point, as well. It appeared to be Burton's point. Whether or not he is biased, I don't know or care. About all I know is that he is R-In. Jance 22:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

My reply was delayed by the time it took to prepare it, and then a couple edit conflicts. I do see your point, and have seen it several times, but haven't addressed it. I understand your consternation over the King Bio thing, which was not Barrett's case, but the lawyer's who got him involved. The lawyer made the mistake, and Barrett probably mistakenly assumed that medical ethics and scientific logic were allowable, when they clearly are not in a court. It's a different situation, and we both agree on that matter. I do fear you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole when you attribute such vast powers to a man and organization when they are just exercising their right to free speech and right to criticize and expose unethical and illegal behavior. Barrett cooperates with Consumer Reports, and follows the same methodology, and criticizes in the same manner. Consumer Reports is a private organization. They even lost a case when the goofed. The same could happen to Barrett if he goofed. If you check out the actual cases, there have been very few court cases. Most of the work is written critiques, which can also be found written by others in newspapers and journals. Are they also guilty of usurping governmental powers? No, free speech is a right we all have. When done honestly, without competitive motives or attempts to hurt innocent people, it is not only proper, it is a part of the duty of medical providers to fulfill their obligations to protect patients. He's a doctor and is still concerned about protecting people from unscrupulous or ignorant snake oil merchants and promoters of pseudoscientific ideas. It comes with the territory and is something governments are very poor at doing. They leave huge cracks where the quacks work unhindered, and Barrett specializes in ferretting them out of those cracks. -- Fyslee 23:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, what you are saying about scientific logic & ethics not being admissible is utter bull. The requirements for expert testimony are requirements for a reason.

I agree that the lawyer did not represent him well. However, it is my understanding that Barrett agrees that the defendant should have to prove he is 'innocent' - eg have to prove in court, after he has been sued, that he has not done what plaintiff has claimed. Please correct me if I iam wrong, but isn't part of the 'role' of NCAHF to sue "quacks" in court over various things....Is that correct? That seems to be more than "free speech" and more than what Consumer Reports does. Also, I don't believe that Consumer Reports attack individuals, do they? I don't know, actually. Of course they are entitled to do so, as long as such speech is not defamatory, but is it wise? That's a different question. What they are not entitled to do is to abuse the legal system and assert prosecutorial powers and shift the burden of proof in a court of law. If Barrett or NCAHF do not do this, then I stand corrected.Jance 23:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me for not writing more clearly. In science and skepticism, it is the logical requirement that the one making an unusual claim has the burden of proof. That is not the case in a court of law.

The lawyer (who is not Barrett's or the NCAHF's lawyer) got them in trouble. It was his idea, and they went with it, and that was a mistake. To my knowledge the King Bio case is the only case where this type of blundering strategy has been used. The NCAHF and Barrett don't usually operate that way, which is why I feel you are judging them harshly for one mistake, instigated by a lawyer who got them involved. While there are occasions where Barrett has reported frauds and dangerous quacks to the authorities and has acted as an expert witness, it's not a common occurence for him, and it is the authorities who are doing the prosecuting, not him. All citizens have a duty to report crime. That is not wrong.

His normal mode of action is critical writing, which is an activity he shares with myriad others, including many journalists. Are they all doing wrong? As long as there is no defamation taking place, alls as it should be and the ones criticized have a right to debunk the charges. What is special in these cases is that the quacks (practically) never do so. They are in the wrong ethically, morally, scientifically, and often legally, and thus they lack legitimate responses. So they respond by using straw man diversions and ad hominem attacks. That's why Barrett gets back something entirely different than he gives out. He engages in typical scientific debate, and scientists would respond by producing evidence, but quacks react like street thugs - they libel him and attack him personally. It's very unfair and improper, and should not be defended. They simply to not respond in kind. -- Fyslee 00:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Fyslee, maybe you are right. I know that this attorney somehow approached NCAHF. And, I suspect that Dr. Barrett was thinking like a medical doctor, and not a lawyer. I do not know how common or rare this is. However, it was astonishing and alarming. But we don't need to belabor this. I don't see the article focusing on this point. Jance 03:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Restatement of my question

I have attempted to start a discussion about removing a sentence from the Barrett article and everone else has gone off at a tangent. So I will restate it: Just after it is pointed out that Barrett has never been sued for libel except in one countersuit there appear these words: 'He explains, "I protect myself by not saying anything that isn't true."' This quotation is referenced, but it definitely does not add any fact not contained elsewhere in the article. Its use at this point introduces a pro Barrett bias. I propose that it should be removed. If you don't agree with this, just read and re read the relevant section and I think you'll see what I mean. One final comment. Dr Barrett is often discussed in a febrile atmosphere in which people get labelled 'pro' or 'anti'. Although Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, I do feel constrained to point out that I think that Stephen Barrett deserves more cheers than jeers, although he is clearly not perfect. I do hope he would not be offended by the latter comment. Robert2957 03:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Robert, I fear you misunderstand the nature of biographical articles and NPOV. The subect of the article is allowed to be quoted, including defending themselves, and including with a bias, AS LONG AS it is clear that it is their POV, and not editorializing by editors who introduce their POV. BLP rules favor the subject, and thus tip the balance in favor of the subject of the article. Positive stuff can be sourced as normally required, while negative stuff must be extremely well sourced or it gets deleted. -- Fyslee 23:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I do not think we have to defend our edits, however, as far as our position. I know I have done this also. I wonder why? Jance 03:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I am tempted, whilst everyone else is chasing Dan Burton in the rugby scrum, to go ahead and remove the offending sentence from the article. But I have learned the importance of proceeding by consensus. Still, I am tempted to be bloody bold and resolute, laugh to scorn the power of other Misplaced Pages editors and say: "Out! damned sentence" Robert2957 09:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

That is hysterical. Go for it.Jance 09:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The sentence is not "offending" in any sense but to you. According to the principles I mention above, it should stay. -- Fyslee 23:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

To whom? I wonder if the way or place it is presented may be offensive? Is there another way to say this, or maybe a better location?Jance 01:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Leaving on one side the question of bias, what does this sentence : 'He explains, "I protect myself by not saying anything that isn't true."', add to the article? How would the article be worse for its removal? Robert2957 08:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It is part of a quote from a biographical article that presents content and context to the way Barrett has avoided getting sued for libel. Avoiding such suits doesn't occur in a vacuum, especially considering the amount of criticism he directs at various practices and practitioners who would love to sue him, but can't. There is a specific reason for that, which is because of Barrett's deliberate strategy in how he words his criticisms (that's why the sentence is important). He words them carefully, specifically, and documents them. The only weapon left for those criticized is the one that fits their often unethical mental status -- the desperate street thug tactics of personal attacks and libel. Their true colors come shining through when they are exposed. IOW, when it is pointed out that "the emperor has no clothes," they retaliate by blinding (lie to their followers) all who look at them and attack those (Barrett) who criticize and expose their nakedness, instead of doing the right thing -- putting on some clothes (ceasing their improper actions). -- Fyslee 15:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait, Fyslee, just a second. Is this like saying "The United States has not been attacked since 9/11 because of the wonderful job George Bush is doing"?? Whether you like Bush or not, this is an absurd statement.Jance 21:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. -- Fyslee 00:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a speculative, potentially self-serving statement that represents one possiblity from a list of possibilities (he knows all the specific reasons why other people don't sue? most people don't sue). Not encyclopedic.--I'clast 23:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed that sentence, but left the factual statement that Barrett has never been sued except for the one counter-claim. This should satisfy. I hope the quote is a direct quote from the book. Someone should verify that.Jance 00:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You have halved the quote from the biographical article, and thus removed the basis for the whole reasoning of the introduction to the section. Now the introduction has no teeth or logic. The removal wasn't a consensus either. -- Fyslee 00:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

From what I can see here, there was 3-1 consensus. If you disagree, then let's discuss it. I do not think the intro with the quote that nobody has sued him is illogical. This is a statement of fact. I was not aware that "having teeth" was what editors should do on Wikiedia. Barrett's statement that he has not been sued because he is truthful is illogical. Barrett may believe that. It may or may not be true. But it doesn't make sense as it is situated here, because it conveys an implication that is not logical. I had not given it much thought until Robert brought it up, but I think he is correct. If you would like me to revert it back, until we have more input, that is fine. (Done).Jance 00:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the paragraph reads better from a content POV with the "offending" sentence removed. I also think that from a formatting view, the entire paragraph could flow better without the bulletting and consolidating the two concepts.

• Barrett's public denouncement of "alternative" health practitioners has resulted in an equally vehement backlash, specifically on the internet. In a biographical article about Barrett, Fred D. Baldwin wrote, "Despite Barrett's pattern of naming names of people as well as products, he has never been sued for libel, except for a counter-suit to a libel suit he once filed (the counter-suit was dismissed).

While the statement about "truth" does add interest, it adds an element of opinion that distracts from the fact that he has never been sued.

--Dematt 04:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems we do have a consensus now. I will change it.Jance 18:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Using "Quackwatch" as a source is fine for some things. However, I do not think it is appropriate to cite to the subject's own website as a source for the awards he has received. That is bad form. It is also unnecessary, when we have sources for the awards mentioned. In fact, I found two of the sources, rather than deleting the awards. Jance 00:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfactual information removed

There was a false statement that Barrett had not appealed his loss to Rosenthal in Barrett Vs Rosenthal at the appellate level. In fact, his petition for rehearing was denied. I have fixed this inaccuracy as to the court record Ilena 04:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Rag-tag Posse of Snake-oil Vigilantes

There are many sources for this, including the webpage I referenced with Stephen Barrett's name on it for 6 years. This is an encyclopedia, but it reads like another advert for Barrett. I reinstated the link that shows Barrett as part of this group. I can provide links from several years. This is as valid a part of his biography ... even if he doesn't want to be associated with it. Please do not remove this again, Arthur. Ilena 05:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Appeals Court Upholds Malicious Prosecution Suit against Hulda Clark and Attorney Carlos Negrete , (Mem,. No. 04-55193 D.C. No. CV -02-0221 O-JML; No. 03-56663 D.C. No. CY -02-0221 O-JML March 14, 2005).

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