| Revision as of 16:48, 30 January 2005 editHerschelkrustofsky (talk | contribs)2,877 edits →What violations?← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:52, 30 January 2005 edit undoWeed Harper (talk | contribs)440 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
| Line 54: | Line 54: | ||
| :Weed, you and Herschel have not only shared the same computers (home and office it seems) but have edited each others comments on talk pages which suggests the same person with different logins and perhaps being confused about who he has logged in as at what time. Perhaps, in the interests of honesty, you could tell us frankly what your association with HK is and also what your relationship is with the LaRouche movement. Are you a staff member of any organization or group linked with the LaRouche movement? If Adam Carr was expected to disclose his relathionship with Danby then you should be expected to disclose the nature of your relationship with the LaRouche movement. ] 07:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) | :Weed, you and Herschel have not only shared the same computers (home and office it seems) but have edited each others comments on talk pages which suggests the same person with different logins and perhaps being confused about who he has logged in as at what time. Perhaps, in the interests of honesty, you could tell us frankly what your association with HK is and also what your relationship is with the LaRouche movement. Are you a staff member of any organization or group linked with the LaRouche movement? If Adam Carr was expected to disclose his relathionship with Danby then you should be expected to disclose the nature of your relationship with the LaRouche movement. ] 07:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) | ||
| :::Adam didn't disclose anything. He promotes himself all over the web, and when Herschel had a hunch about Danby, the answer was just a Google away. You are wrong about Herschel and I editing each others posts. I did use Herschel's words when I set up the "cooked quotes evidence page," and I said so at the time. | |||
| :::My relationship to the LaRouche movement is that I subscribe to their publications, make donations, and occasionally pass out leaflets. Editing Misplaced Pages was my own idea. In fact, a LaRouche activist suggested to me that it was an unproductive use of my time. ] 18:52, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::For the record, I'm a she, not a he. Regarding Weed Harper's claim that I solicited ] to come to Misplaced Pages as my ally regarding the ] story, Cberlet joined Misplaced Pages several months before me, and the first time I encountered him was in December 2004, two or three weeks after I created Jeremiah Duggan. The controversy surrounding the death of Duggan has nothing to do with the Iraq War, the British government, or LaRouche being interviewed on British television. That is a LaRouche fantasy. This case is being brought because the person operating these user accounts is editing fantasies like these into the Misplaced Pages. ] 09:42, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC) | ::For the record, I'm a she, not a he. Regarding Weed Harper's claim that I solicited ] to come to Misplaced Pages as my ally regarding the ] story, Cberlet joined Misplaced Pages several months before me, and the first time I encountered him was in December 2004, two or three weeks after I created Jeremiah Duggan. The controversy surrounding the death of Duggan has nothing to do with the Iraq War, the British government, or LaRouche being interviewed on British television. That is a LaRouche fantasy. This case is being brought because the person operating these user accounts is editing fantasies like these into the Misplaced Pages. ] 09:42, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 18:52, 30 January 2005
Hi folks. I'm still a newbie, so apologies if I have this process mixed up. I think I am suppossed to make comments here? I can understand why a temporary injunction on all of us makes sense while arbitrators figure stuff out; but before I received the notice of this arbitration, Willmcw (contribs), SlimVirgin (contribs), and I ( Cberlet (contribs) ), had tried repeatedly to get Herschelkrustofsky (contribs), Weed Harper (contribs), C Colden (contribs), and other pro-LaRouche editors to join us and stop editing the LaRouche-related pages except for Political views of Lyndon LaRouche which had been protected while a discussion took place over content. The Pro-LaRouche editors refused, and continued editing other pages, while engaging in a lengthy and often heated discussion on the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page.
Finally, User:Willmcw, User:SlimVirgin, and I (User:Cberlet), created sandbox articles in an attempt to create and edit versions of three LaRouche-related pages that we hoped would be less repetitious and more focused; and which would provide majority source views on the subjects while preserving the minority views of the LaRouche editors. Here are the assorted pages:
Political views of Lyndon LaRouche
I wanted to make sure that you folks were made aware that the sandboxes were created before we received the notice of arbitration. Our intent had been to edit the pages, and then ask for page protection to be removed from the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page and then invite further discussion. I do not know if the temporary injunction means we should stop working on the sandbox pages as well. Please advise. Thanks. --Cberlet 19:38, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I'm speaking here only for myself. I would like Cberlet, Willmcw, and SlimVirgin (and any other non-LaRouche editor who wants to join us) to be allowed to continue editing the sandbox pages, in an effort to see what these pages would look like if there were no LaRouche interference. We've not had that before in Misplaced Pages, so I'd like us to be allowed to continue that experiment. SlimVirgin 20:29, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Ooops. I assumed it was OK unless they told us specifically to stop editing the sandboxes. I'll stop and await further instructions.--Cberlet 20:48, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Well the injunction does specifically mention articles linked to from the LaRouche template. So I guess it is OK to work in sandboxes. What I do not want to see happen is the creation of forked articles in the article namespace. That will be viewed by me as an attempt to get around the order and will not all be looked upon favorably (by me at least). --mav 21:17, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable, Thanks--Cberlet 21:25, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I do not object to a moratorium on all edits of the visible LaRouche articles and talk pages. We can move the "sandbox" pages to a user's space and continuing editing them there, if necessary. On a separate note, I see on the arbitration page an assertion by HK that he has abided by the August 2004 ArbCom decision. Nonetheless, I have found numerous edits by HK and Weed Harper since that time in which they added LaRouche theories and links to articles not included in the LaRouche template. I cannot judge whether they are violations, but I think that they are questionable in that regard.
- National bank
- Australian anti-terrorism legislation, 2004
- Henry Charles Carey
- American System (economics)
- Regulation
- International Monetary Fund
- Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow-Up (edit history)
- Added:
- Alexander Hamilton
As for the Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes" page, I added a severely misquoted reference that previously had been added by Weed Harper to an article. I questioned it on the article's talk page, and questioned it again on the "cooked quotes" page, yet WeedHopper has never responded with an explanation for why he mischaracterized the facts so flagrantly. -Willmcw 21:33, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Speaking only for myself, I object to an editing block on myself, Cberlet, and Willmcw, because it implies we have done something wrong, and it also leaves the LaRouche articles in their current mess, when getting them into order should, in my view, be a priority. SlimVirgin 23:45, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
It is my view that editors SlimVirgin and Cberlet have in fact "done something wrong," and I will be posting a counterclaim as soon as possible. In the meantime, please refer to my remarks here. --HK 01:58, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- During the preliminary stages of an investigation, it is common practice to ask all parties to stop what they are doing. It does not imply anything other than the investigators needs time to sort things out.--Cberlet 14:23, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Gee, I didn't realize it was gonna take two days just for the preliminary injunction to be agreed upon! I guess the wheels of Wikijustice grind on. Since the injuction specifically mentioned only three sandbox articles I moved a fourth sandbox page, that had been created previously with a draft of a future LaRouche article, to my own user space. I assume that so long as it is not posted as an article the editing of it will not violate the injunction. This is my first involvement with the ArbCom so I hope someone will nudge me to let me know when to stand up and when to sit down. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:42, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I could not respond to this sooner, because my account was blocked, even though I violated no rule. As near as I can tell, Herschel accused SlimVirgin of violating the the 3R rule, and Slim retaliated by contacting a friend of his who is an admin and accusing Herschel of violating the same rule. He managed to get a block not only on Herschel, but anyone who attempted to use a computer that had ever been used by Herschel, which may have also inconvenienced users who were not involved in the LaRouche controversy.
Slim accuses me of being a sockpuppet. He made this accusation the first time I disputed his edits back in November. He noted that I had received a welcome greeting on my talk page from Sam Spade, and another editor who disputed with him, C Colden, had received the same greeting from Sam Spade, so it follows that I and C Colden were the same person. On the Misplaced Pages:Sock puppet page, it says that any account with more than 100 edits is presumed not to be a sock puppet. I have over 400 edits. Slim's attempts to manipulate administrative rules to silence his POV opponents is just too John Ashcroft.
When the debate over the Iraq war was raging in the British establishment, the anti-war faction arranged to have Lyndon LaRouche interviewed on the BBC on April 3, 2003, to attack the fraudulent rationale for the war. In retaliation, the pro-war faction attempt to blame LaRouche for the suicide of a troubled young anti-war activist named Jeremiah Duggan who attended a LaRouche conference in Germany. This tactic fizzled, but SlimVirgin came to Misplaced Pages with the idea that he could use Misplaced Pages as a platform to revive the story (see Jeremiah Duggan). Chip Berlet was also involved in the Duggan project. I suspect that Slim solicited Berlet to come to Misplaced Pages as his ally. Both have made some comments that Berlet was disturbed that criticism of Berlet in Misplaced Pages was hurting his business.
Berlet is a professional propagandist. Even though the article Chip Berlet has been carefully groomed and sanitized by SlimVirgin and Willmcw, it is still evident that there are many from across the political spectrum that consider him to be a propagandist. His edits at Misplaced Pages should be watched carefully. Weed Harper 06:21, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Weed, you and Herschel have not only shared the same computers (home and office it seems) but have edited each others comments on talk pages which suggests the same person with different logins and perhaps being confused about who he has logged in as at what time. Perhaps, in the interests of honesty, you could tell us frankly what your association with HK is and also what your relationship is with the LaRouche movement. Are you a staff member of any organization or group linked with the LaRouche movement? If Adam Carr was expected to disclose his relathionship with Danby then you should be expected to disclose the nature of your relationship with the LaRouche movement. AndyL 07:39, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Adam didn't disclose anything. He promotes himself all over the web, and when Herschel had a hunch about Danby, the answer was just a Google away. You are wrong about Herschel and I editing each others posts. I did use Herschel's words when I set up the "cooked quotes evidence page," and I said so at the time.
- My relationship to the LaRouche movement is that I subscribe to their publications, make donations, and occasionally pass out leaflets. Editing Misplaced Pages was my own idea. In fact, a LaRouche activist suggested to me that it was an unproductive use of my time. Weed Harper 18:52, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- For the record, I'm a she, not a he. Regarding Weed Harper's claim that I solicited Cberlet to come to Misplaced Pages as my ally regarding the Jeremiah Duggan story, Cberlet joined Misplaced Pages several months before me, and the first time I encountered him was in December 2004, two or three weeks after I created Jeremiah Duggan. The controversy surrounding the death of Duggan has nothing to do with the Iraq War, the British government, or LaRouche being interviewed on British television. That is a LaRouche fantasy. This case is being brought because the person operating these user accounts is editing fantasies like these into the Misplaced Pages. SlimVirgin 09:42, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
What violations?
In a counterclaim posted here:, user:Herschelkrustofsky concludes:
- I ask that these examples be found to be violations of Misplaced Pages policy, and that Cberlet, SlimVirgin, and Willmcw be warned against further violations, with some sanctions to apply if the warnings are ignored.
But he does not indicate any supposed violations on my part. Either HK should document my violations or he should remove me from the list of violators. -Willmcw 00:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- FYI: I cross-posted this query to HK's user:page and got the following response, along with my reply.
- Please note that you are not on my "list of violators", but rather on my list of editors to "be warned against further violations." I don't think you have broken any rules to date, although you did sort of embarrass yourself in your hunt for LaRouche-under-the-bed, especially at Classical music. --HK 15:58, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks. Since I haven't committeed any violations, I don't think I can commit "further" violations, but that's semantics. Cheers, -Willmcw 16:19, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In order to eliminate any ambiguity, I have amended my counterclaim to say "future" violations. --HK 16:48, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)