Misplaced Pages

Comment by Malber (talk · contribs)

I did not write the material regarding Kuntan. That was submitted by User:Cindery. I don't know enough about the issue to endorse her comments, however I feel that NHN's handing of the fallout from the block (particularly the posting of the offensive image on a talk page) was less than civil. If an editor who was less popular in IRC did that he would have gained an immediate 48 hour block.

I think there should be concern over the fact that the list of endorsers of this statment looks very similar to the list of participants on #wikipedia-in. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Malber, please assume good faith. Daniel.Bryant 09:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think stating the obvious is an assumption of bad faith. Also, not one of these people has made a case--citing any actions of Kuntan/Kundan after Sundown--that he did anything on-wiki worthy of a block. Dakshaaayni has said that Nick suspects someone of making an off-wiki "attack page." I suspect that that is the reason for the block. I actually don't know what policy pertains to off-wiki actions, if any, but WP:PI should be observed, and clearly, process is blatantly not being followed here. There is no viable case against Kuntan for username, and I don't see 1) a viable case against him for "trolling" 2) worse, anyone even making that argument --just echoing the personal attack word "troll." If there's an case against him for something off-wiki, then make that case. Unjustified out-of-process blocks alienate regular editors--those who write 80% of Wiki articles. Admins should be concerned with what is good for Misplaced Pages--retaining that 80%--and not narrowly focused instead on whatever personal benefit they may derive from voting for each other--I think it makes Misplaced Pages look stupid. As in, junior-high stupid. Sorry, but that is my honest view (and I am not alone in holding it). Cindery 18:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to his jibe regarding #wikipedia-in - it was uncalled-for, and assumed bad faith on the participants of this RfC. Sorry for any confusion. Daniel.Bryant 09:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

That Cindery doesn't see the case against blocking Kuntan boggles the mind. Calling me junior high stupid is as sophomoric an attack as I've seen in a while; just because everyone disagrees with you, doesn't mean that you should resort to personal attacks, Cindery - Samir धर्म 15:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Per Heliogand's claim that IRC evidence exists justifying a block, I have done exhaustive google research (and looked up the off-wiki personal attack policy:http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#Off-wiki_personal_attacks). I see nothing re Kuntan on IRC except two questions he posted, one about categories, another about speedy deletions. What I *did* find is what may be the alleged "attack page"--an "Encyclopedia Dramatica" entry about Nick's IRC name, and written as you, Samir. (I.e., I see that someone at "Encyclopedia Dramatica" has chosen your Wiki username as their usename.) If that was written by Kuntan, it is my opinion that he is junior high, anyone responding to it in any way is junior high, etc, etc. It all happened off-wiki; it was schoolyard-silly; it should have just been ingored; and the loss of a single editor like crl13 was not worth retaliating on-wiki. And the huge abuse-of-process time wastage of other editors is not worth it either. If I am incorrect in assuming/suspecting that the "Encyclopedia Dramatica" hijinks are not behind the "username" and "troll" blocks of Kuntan, someone please provide, as SA Jordan has requested below, info re IRC, and explain how the IRC evidence qualifies as on-wiki misconduct, here and at ANI.

FYI: "I think it makes Misplaced Pages look stupid" is not a personal attack, as it is an opinion not directed at anyone specifically/personally, and is describes actions. You have already been cited, Samir--by Shimeru--for attacking people for questioning/analyzing the block of Kuntan. I don't think it's helpful for sorting out the block of Kuntan. Please remember "light not heat." Thanks, Cindery 15:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Note: Samir on the subject of "Encyclopedia Dramatica":

I have blocked User:Clt13 (who has been inactive of recent) as a sockpuppet of User:Kuntan as established by off-wiki evidence. This has been discussed previously with another administrator. Mail me for more information. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

So now Cindery is backing up Encyclopedia Dramatica. Who's next, Willy on Wheels? -- Samir धर्म 21:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

SAJordan's comments moved from main page

Click above link to see all. Or see replies to Samir, Armadillo, Bakaman, Aksi_great, Guy, Tintin, and Heligoland.

comments from Cindery: I can see the diffs provided above by Samir now, and they do not wow me with Kuntan's "terribel wrongdoing"--the "vandalism" charge against him was a message he posted which said "I feel like doing a little bit of vandalism. I hope you won't mind the extra work."---this appears extremely mild, humorous, and could even be interpreted as friendly. Am I missing something? The second charge against him looks like it involves very mild incivility on his part--was there a warning for that? (I can't see his talkpage.) I don't see multiple hoax articles--I see only one, a very brief hoax, and the purpose seems to have been humor, not malice. (Was there nontheless a warning for that?) Regarding the name, again, Kuntan pointed out that it had multiple meanings, and then changed his name, and objected to being called by his prior name--I still do not get why he was blocked for his name after he changed it (and while it had multiple meanings)? Again, he was not the subject of a "community ban"--he was indefinitely blocked for his username until a few days ago, when he was blocked as a"troll." I do not see evidence that anything he did added up to "being a troll." It looks like he made many useful contributions, and that there could have been grounds for warnings to him re: one instance of incivility and perhaps keeping his sense of humor in check (although, personally, I do not object to humor.) "Trolling" implies that he was trying to upset people with the hoax article/his message to Deepu--it looks to me like he was trying to make people laugh, not upset them. "Trolling" also implies that he did a *lot* of trying to upset people--I see no evidence of that. Based on what I know, it looks like a case wasn't brought against him on ANI or RfC because there was no case to bring. Again, am I missing something? Please point out, if so. Cindery 01:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Any user threatening to vandalise Misplaced Pages is liable to an automatic ban, the length of which is at the discretion of the blocking admin, but it's not unusual for vandalism only accounts to be blocked indefinitely. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

1) it wasn't a vandalism-only account, or ever accused of being one (have you looked at his contribution history?) 2. his "vandalism" was to post a message stating "I hope you won't mind a little vandalism"--it wasn't vandalism, it was clearly a joke. Cindery 01:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

No admin in their right mind is going to allow an account threatening vandalism to go unchecked. Joking about vandalism is unwise, it's as simple as that. Doing some research, there is additional evidence from the IRC channels which if presented which totally and utterly back up the block of the account. As you may be aware, I can't really say any more though. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 01:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, secret evidence which neither the defendant nor the jury can examine or contest, merely be told that it's there. That's the standard these days, isn't it? Some places, anyway. Like Guantanamo.

By the way, please stop posting with that Inappropriate Username "Heligoland", as you have been notified of its WP:USERNAME violations here and here. – SAJordan _contribs 02:47, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).

The evidence is readily accessible on the internet. In the process of trying to find out the various translations for Kutan, I came across an IRC log. All the information is widely accessible, just not permissible on site. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 20:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide the URL and specify the timestamps to check, maybe give some idea of what it is we're supposed to be looking for? – SAJordan _contribs 03:21, 1 Jan 2007 (UTC).

Your justifications seem to be getting increasingly more and more far-fetched--a serious "vandalism" threat would be reported on ANI/there would be a warning. Precedent was just established re IRC and blocks: the info must be described in order to justify a block. Cindery 02:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Also, I've taken the time to review Kuntan's edit history. He made many useful edits. And: he began editing on September 17, 2006. He was still a very new editor at the time that any of the accusations Samir has cited against him were made. On September 18th, he posted the harmless joke vandalism message to Deepu. No warnings were issued to him. Later the same day, the 18th--his second day of editing--he reverted it himself. The AfD "hoax" was not only brief (and funny: ) but he apologized for it. Tintin thanked him for "beautifully exposing what is wrong with AfD," and also for exposing that it was a hoax, because otherwise the article would have been kept: (Kuntan stated that he was not trying to expose not what was wrong with AfD, but to draw attention to why/how many articles about Kerala were nonsense.) Tintin noted that it was probably a WP:POINT violation, but no one accused Kuntan of "trolling." Although Kuntan personally apologized to Armadillofrom hell: , Armadillo is the only one who expresssed anger (which is WP:BITE, especially considering that Kuntan had been editing for two weeks, admitted the hoax, and apologized). Kuntan did not participate in any more AfD discussions for the purpose of exposing AfD discussions about Kerala articles as absurd, that I could see. There seemed to be an ongoing dispute about whether his name was obscene although it had other meanings, in which he genuinely felt harassed, and an ongoing dispute about classism/castes regarding an article about the Nair family, in which Kuntan felt that caste bias was an issue/POV problem in the article. It's not exactly clear to me what happened between Sept and Dec., except that the ongoing harassment over his username was something Kuntan brought up at Deepu's RfA, and that was when Samir and Nick became involved, called him names, told him to leave Misplaced Pages, posted the finger, etc. Sometime after that, it appears that Nick and Samir joked between each other regarding ED: The date I see on the ED "attack page" is November 23. Kuntan was blocked in December for "username."

Cindery 03:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You missed the sockpuppets, the trolling on RfA's and on ANI that the responsible administrators took into account when blocking Kuntan. It all adds up to an indefinite block. Accusing ArmadilloFromHell of WP:BITE violations is improper -- Samir धर्म 20:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by Samuel Blanning

Of the disputed AfD closings:

• List of big-bust models and performers was overturned after being nominated at DRV, relisted, and the AfD speedy closed.
• Dave Gilbert (game designer) is currently at DRV. Opinions are split.
• Ice Age (band) was overturned after being relisted and kept at AfD.
• Critical Mass (Catholic rock) was restored after new evidence was presented; a deletion review had one endorsement and one overturn of the original discussion.
• Scene (subculture) has not been nominated for DRV.
• Hilal Khashan was overturned after being relisted and kept at AfD.
• Graving has not been nominated for DRV.
• W00t is currently on DRV with a majority for endorsement.

So out of 8 that supposedly justify an RfC, 2 were not even nominated (so we can assume there is no case against the closing), 1 is heading for an endorsement, 1 was split but without particular disapproval against the closing, 1 is heading the same way. I do not believe the remaining 3 constitute a serious problem with Nicholas' AfD closing, although there were a few errors that I'm sure he will learn from. (That does not include the first closing in the list, incidentally). He appears to have a much better grasp of AfD closing than the RfC requester, who refers to AfD here as a vote, which it is not, and claims in all all but one of the AfDs listed that Nicholas was at fault because he closed against the numbers.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Duja► 12:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Also, I can't see anything positive that will come of this, so can we just get back to editing articles? Taxman 13:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
3. — Lost 13:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
4. I think the Scene (subculture) AFD is an example of good judgement. All of the keep !votes were basically "I like it" or "it does exist!" 2 or 3 questionable AFD closers makes for bad support of "admin abuse." ---J.S 17:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Bakaman 17:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
6. Admins make some mistakes, that's why we have a process to review AfDs. -Amarkov _edits 17:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
7. Aksi_great (talk) 19:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
8. RfC requester fundamentally misunderstands the nature of AfD closure and compounds it by confusing honest (and reversible) mistakes made in good faith with abuse of powers. Baseless claim. Guy (Help!) 20:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
9. Samir धर्म 01:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
10. Jkelly 02:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
11. Gizza 06:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
12. This is another invented fault based on poor understanding of how things work, just as the requester was unable to properly request an RfC. —WAvegetarian•(talk) 10:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
13. Sir Nick and I don't see eye to eye on some of these, but I don't see any abuse. DRV works. Eluchil404 12:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
14. Srikeit 13:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
15. Bishonen | talk 14:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC).
16. _{Freedom skies| talk}  16:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
17. Gwernol 21:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
18. Mistakes made in good faith != admin abuse. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
19. Indeed. Daniel.Bryant 09:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
20. Terence Ong 18:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
21. Sir Nick, unlike the requesters of this RfC understood the purpose of AfD by applying his common sense and weighing arguments rather than base his decision on a simple count of !votes. At no point did he try to obstruct the complaint process rather he continously refered those who objected to deletion review instead of arguing on his talk page. None of those AfD's have been closed out of process as detailed by Sam above. MartinDK 08:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
22. Same thing. — Nearly Headless Nick 08:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
23. Mailer Diablo 19:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
24. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
25. – Chacor 10:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment

• A large number of overturned AFD decisions does seem to indicate that the Admin should show more caution. --Barberio 18:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Outside view by weirdoactor

I will comment on one of the disputed AfD closings; W00t, and on the claims of incivility.

I filed the DRV for W00t. Do I think Nick acted maliciously here? No. Do I think he reviewed the AfD in full before acting? I can’t say, but I will assume good faith. I will say that the “Delete” votes were weak, with only a few citing actual policy. I thought it was odd that the history was deleted; but again, I don’t think Nick acted maliciously here. My guess would be user error; I see absolutely no any reason that Nick would have for intentionally deleting the W00t history.

One odd thing; shortly after I posted on Nick’s talk page about the deletion, I received a strange message from Daakshayani, a user with whom I had no contact previously. I find it interesting that a “non-sock puppet” would try and draw me into a discussion of whether of not to delete the categories of their alleged puppet master. Pretty much fails the smell test, in my humble opinion.

Is Nick uncivil? No. He can occasionally be terse, or perhaps impatient, but I don't find him to be uncivil. If being terse or impatient were punishable as incivility, I myself would be guilty on more occasions than I would care to recall, as would many, many users. Should admins be held to a higher standard of civility? Absolutely not. Possessing the mop does not give one patience above and beyond that of mortal editors; and admins have to deal with more…let’s say “asininity” than your average user, and in my opinion can be forgiven if they are snippy from time to time. I’d say from my own interactions with Nick, and those I’ve observed that he is, to quote the great Patrick Swayze, “Nice until it’s time to not be nice”.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. -- weirdoactor 18:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Calling it incivility worthy of an RFC is a bit of a stretch. Don't interpret this to mean that being nicer wouldn't be good. -Amarkov _edits 21:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
3. I agree the AFD debates were not closed in bad faith, and there is only so much patience one can have. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
4. — Nearly Headless Nick 08:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Users who mostly endorse this summary:

1. I disagree only with the last part. I think we would be better served by the words of Theodore Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick." ---J.S 20:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely outside view by Argyriou

I supported bringing at RfC against User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, but I do not agree with all the grounds listed in the RfC as it was brought. I also worry that many of the people who will be viewing this RfC will be predisposed to dismiss arguments by the people bringing it, due to tangles they've had with administrators in the past, and that this case will not receive a fair hearing.

In my view, the primary problem with Sir Nicholas is that he does not have the temperament to be an administrator. He consistently confuses his opinions for Misplaced Pages policy or for community consensus, and becomes dismissive or hostile when called on it.

Sir Nicholas does not understand copyright policy

The following are statements Sir Nicholas has made which show that he does not understand Misplaced Pages copyright policy:

• The user Mahlenmahlen must mention on his YouTube page which shows the clip, or on his user page, if YouTube provides one; that he is either free-licensing it or releasing it in the creative-commons. Such assertions that he was the uploader of the file on YouTube cannot be under any terms of reasonability be accepted.
• What exactly are you talking about? We do not need consensus on Talk:Barrington Hall for deciding if we need to keep YouTube video links on this website.
• YouTube links are not reliable as any person with an internet connection can upload a file on their website.
• Unless the video's copyrights are exclusively owned by YouTube, no – you cannot link to the site.
• YouTube links are either copyright infringements or not reliable.

Sir Nicholas mistakes his personal views for consensus

The following are actions taken and statements made by Sir Nicholas where he completely ignores any arguments opposing his position to paint a false picture of consensus:

• Deletion of List of big-bust models and performers against consensus. While many of the keep arguments were WP:ILIKEIT, there were arguments which stated that the material was notable, had reliable sourcing for at least some of the article, and was capable of being NPOV.
• Close with Keep against consensus in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dave Gilbert (game designer) 1.
• Yes, Tvoz, there is a difference of opinion on this matter, and all the administrators who are comfortably aware of the policies and guidelines of this place have their reasons as to why YouTube links should be removed. Have a look here User:Dmcdevit/YouTube (admin), User:J.smith/YouTube (admin). (reply)
• Please do not disrupt Misplaced Pages. A consensus has been reached on the WP:ANI page. . It should be obvious that if there is any consensus on this issue, it is not that all YouTube links are inherently defective and should be removed.

Blocking Policy

• I hate to drag in the case of a notorious troll and sockpuppetteer, but when one blocks a troll, one should block the troll for trolling (or particular instances thereof), not for the specious grounds that the troll's username is obscene in a non-English language. Part of the point of process is to communicate accurately to others what is and is not acceptable conduct. Had there been a user named "Kuntan" who was actually a productive contributor, the username block wouldn't have occurred in the same way. Uninformed users seeing the block would get a very poor view of the quality of our administrative process.
• Sir Nicholas' block of User:Malber was blatantly out-of-process; so much so that Sir Nicholas even said that he shouldn't have been the one to block Malber. If Malber's actions in the RfA were objectionable enough to warrant a block, why did no other admin step up to block Malber?

I think this presents sufficient evidence that Sir Nicholas has insufficiently accurate knowledge to perform well some of the tasks in the purview of an administrator, and lacks the temperament to refrain from acting where he should not act. Argyriou (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary

1. Nick should not be an admin. Posting photos of "the finger" before blocking someone and blocking editors with whom he is in personal disputes make that clear. His incivility towards editors with questions/objections to You Tube links, disruption at Barrington Hall regarding a link verified by the copyright holder (who happens to be a senior Google engineer), and his mistaken belief that "I am a law student" trumps Misplaced Pages policy (and copyright law) merely make it even more clear. Perhaps he would be a fine editor--but he shouldn't be an admin. Cindery 01:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
2. - the Barrington hijinks reveal an inappropriate attitude for an admin. --AStanhope 04:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. - I have no knowledge or opinion about the disputes regarding the blocking of users described above. But I endorse the position that Nearly Headless Nick should not be an administrator, from my personal experiences with him that had nothing to do with the other disputes. I believe that those with admin powers should be held to a higher standard than come-and-go editors, and need a certain level of maturity. However, in my few interactions with Nick, I found him to be:
   1. condescending: his "all the administrators who are comfortably aware of the policies and guidelines of this place have their reasons as to why YouTube links should be removed" was addressed to me and sounded like an attempt to intimidate and dismiss the valid question I was asking about some links that he had summarily removed without specific explanation, because "all the administrators" who know everything agree with him. This is both inaccurate and insulting, and not the way an admin should address any editor, or any question. As I responded to him , telling me that wiser heads than mine "have their reasons" is classic totalitarianism and shockingly unacceptable coming from an admin in response to a respectfully worded, genuine question - and that question had to be posed because he had not bothered to give an explanation on his removal. I am not a newbie here as he apparently assumed, nor am I male as he also assumed (and I find that offensive too) - I have over 1500 edits on over 400 articles in 3 months, and a reading of my user page would have informed him of my gender. This is the least professional interaction I've had with any admin. This makes me question if his temperment is what is needed in admins.
   2. inaccurate: "YouTube links are either copyright infringements or not reliable" was also addressed to me and is an absurd and incorrect statement. It was unhelpful and dismissive of a genuine question I was raising. I might point out that this was not a part of any other disputes Nick may have been having with other editors about You Tube. I have nothing to do with Barrington Hall and haven't even read the page, let alone be a part of the dispute. I specifically said I didn't want to get involved in the EL border wars, but that I was asking for a specific reading on the specific links that he removed, because those links were not random external link window-dressing, but were integrated into the article and illustrative of the text. I didn't claim to know if these links were or were not in violation - I asked if he knew when he removed them. This response - so totally incorrect and out of touch with reality - makes me question whether he has the knowledge that is needed of admins.
   3. overstepping of boundaries: Without explanation - with neither a note on my talk page nor an email to me, and with an edit summary devoid of content - he came onto my talk page and removed another user's message that was intended for me before I even had a chance to see it. Here's where: . This was a note that someone I do not know left for me, pointing me to something that he or she thought I might be interested in reading. I think it is grossly out of line for anyone to edit anyone else's user talk page - and especially so without attempting to notify the person whose page it is. This was an abuse of power - especially egregious coming from an administrator. If he had a compelling reason to remove it - and I don't know if I think that is ever acceptable - then he had a responsibility to contact me regarding it. He should have sent me a note stating why he was taking the extraordinary step of removing content from my talk page, and making sure that I knew about it and that this highly outrageous action had ironclad justification. Instead he snuck onto my page and made a stealth edit, with the un-illuminating summary: "Reverted edits by Simbirskin (talk) to last version by Vera, Chuck & Dave". Also, as further evidence of the arbitrary nature of his original removal of the message from my page - I reverted it when I saw it and I see that he left it alone after that. So I guess it wasn't such a vital removal after all. No explanation, no apology, nothing was forthcoming. This calls into question his impartiality and his understanding of boundaries, both of which are vital in an admin.

I therefore feel that he is not suitably mature to handle the powers that admins are given. Tvoz | talk 00:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

• I don't endorse the sentiment that Nicholas should have his "mop" revoked, but I do think many of his reactions should have been tempered. In my personal admin-ship-philosophy, even as we are blocking a troll, deleting vandalism, or defending an action we believe is right, we need to be courteous and respectful (tis something I aspire to, but don't always reach) ---J.S 00:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• I want specifically to avoid commenting on what should happen to Nick's admin bit. I want to believe that he and I and all of you have the capacity to learn from our mistakes, even if sometimes it takes a lovingly swung clue-by-four upside the head to shake us (and our stubborn preconceptions) up a bit. I think there's a problem here, and it needs to be solved, but I'm not going to declare that only one solution is possible. I think that some decisions need to be reviewed and overturned. I think that some practices to do with blocks and deletions, accusations and incivility, and using the admin bit where personally emotionally involved, need to stop. I think the emphasis on punitive rather than corrective action, assuming bad faith rather than good faith, presuming guilt rather than innocence, and blocking/deleting communications rather than opening them, is not helpful, and needs to be turned 180 degrees — which can be a slow and difficult process that meets much resistance. It's possible that simply staying away from some topics and participants for a while might help "temper reactions", as J.Smith put it. I don't really know, and I can't really know, in advance of events. Perhaps Nick will have a sudden change of heart on his own; such things have happened. Perhaps a delegation of trusted elders can perform what in other contexts is called an "intervention" or a "Dutch Uncle talk". Perhaps mentoring by some stern and strict old Wiki-sensei in the ways of Admin-Fu will impart a more rigorous discipline and the Tao of When to Recuse. Or perhaps being bullied and badgered mercilessly and unfairly by someone bigger and badder would make him resent that breed so much that he resolves never to be anything like that. Many possibilities. It all depends on what it takes to turn on the lightbulb floating overhead, which means it really depends on Nick. My approaching him seems to have done nothing. Someone else, singular or plural, might have a better outcome. Whoever else tries, I wish you (and him) luck. – SAJordan _contribs 06:41, 30 Dec 2006 (UTC).

1. I completely agree with Cindery. That's the long and short of it. 24.106.234.138 14:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Half in half outside view by Guy

In response to the points put by Argyriou and some others above:

• Block of Malber. If anyone else had done it, there would be no argument. Malber was being deliberately provocative (call it trolling if you like).
• Deletion of List of big-bust models and performers against consensus. Majority is not consensus. Consensus in this case is that all articles must be verifiable and stated from a neutral point of view. Sir Nicholas is far form the only established editor to conclude that a list founded on a group of editors' personal definition of what consititues "big", and with inclusion based on utterly unreliable sources, completely fails those policies. This was a defensible (and in my view completely correct) deletion, and illustrates precisely why AfD is explicitly not a vote: supermajority of WP:ILIKETITS absolutely cannot overrule policy. Nick's interpretation of the debate was valid and not abusive in any way even if you disagree with it.
• Close with Keep against consensus in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dave Gilbert (game designer) 1. Reasoning was given, there was not much input to the debate and some of it lacked reasoning (citing WP:HOLE is all very well, but the article did make an assertion of notability so it doesn't really apply). So this is a defensible close, with reasoning given.
• Barrington Hall. This was one of the most stupid disputes I can recall. As a point of principle, we should not link ot offsite media which may violate copyright, or for which copyright status is unknown, it is contributory infringement and places the project in legal jeopardy. Almost all YouTube links on the project at that time violated copyright in some respect, we did the same thing with YTMND for the same reaosn (soundtracks were almost without exception copyvios). Arguing about it will not make this inconvenient fact go away. Nick was absolutely right to state this, and if instead of arguing the participants had simply done what they did in the end - correctly identified the copyright status - there would have been no porblem. In matters of copyright, obduracy tends to be met with more obduracy. Sicne this appears to be the basis for much of the criticism of Nick, and the foundation of this entire process, I feel its important to be completely clear here: no amount of consensus among editors, no amount of re-stating "it's not a problem" without proving it, no amount of "but we like it", will ever make it right to link to offsite media which may infringe copyright. Removing such links is always permissible, and the burden is solidly on those seeking to include the links to justify them to those who challenge them. If we're going to trout-slap Nick for this then we're also going to have to trout-slap a lot of others, including Dmcdevit and me, because as far as I'm concerned if I see any link to any offsite content where the copyright status is not unambiguous (and unambiguously clean) then I will remove it and I will work on keeping it removed unless and until the problem is actually fixed.

So. Nick has been a bit bullheaded when provoked. Me too. The whole Barrinton Hall thing was a dialogue of the deaf from the beginning and is not indicative of fitness for adminship, and no credible evidence has yet been cited of abuse of powers, only of making calls that people disagree with. Let's have a straw poll: of those editors participating in this RfC, who has never once made a call that others disagree with, and then defended that call? Not me, for sure. Guy (Help!) 11:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Users endorsing this summary

1. Srikeit 13:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
2. That summarises it all quite well. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 22:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
3. Daniel.Bryant 09:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. This doesn't mean that he should have blocked Malber. -Amarkov _edits 18:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. ---J.S 20:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. — Nearly Headless Nick 08:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Terence Ong 08:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Donald Albury 12:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• Being 'bullish when provoked' is not, nor ever has been, grounds to ignore Misplaced Pages:Civility. --Barberio 18:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Guy seems unfamiliar with the Barrington dispute: the link was verified by the copyright owner, who is a senior Google engineer. (Um, Google owns You Tube.) Nick deleted the link after it was verified by the copyright owner, and claimed "I am a law student. I understand copyright law." I would not hire a law student to represent me in a copyright case against a senior Google engineer over a You Tube link dispute (and not just because law students haven't passed the bar yet and can't represent anyone in court :-) Cindery 00:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Come on, lay off Mimsy, I'm watching the video now and there's no copyright statement anywhere to be seen. He was acting in good faith trying to remove links to copyright violating materials. There really is no need to be quite terse and uncivil about all this, there's actually no need to drag anybodies qualifications or knowledge into this (and I know Mimsy started it all), it's a simple case of YouTube not having a simple way to show the copyright of the clips they host (oh how I long for a copyright notice like Flickr has), and Misplaced Pages for not having any way to confirm to a central project that the link is fine, that permission is given by the copyright holder for the clip to be shown via YouTube. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 01:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The response was to Guy, not Nick. But no, Nick was not acting in good faith in so far as 1) he knew the link was disputed, per talkpage discussions with me 2) he knew the copyright owner had posted on talkpage of article, affirming permission to use the link 3) he was aware of lengthy talkpage discussion at the article talkpage 3) he was aware of the EL discussions, in which consensus was against deletions under EL. But I also think it's wise to mention source credibility: a senior Google engineer v. a "law student." Do we want an admin who will inadvertantly cause problems like this, because he edit wars/believes he is "right" even if consensus is against him, policy is against him, editorial consensus is against him, and a copyright holder is against him? No matter how much info he got that his actions were disputed, Nick insisted on trying to impose his view. He doesn't seem to consider whom he might be upsetting when he does this. Today, a senior Google engineer over a You Tube link, what next tomorrow? Nick's apparent attitude that "editors don't count" isn't an asset to the project, in my view--one never knows who those editors are. Admins shoud have the good judgement to treat all editors with respect. Cindery 02:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• You are completely missing the point. The default, with disputed material, and especially with links to material with disputed copyright, is not to include. Think of it in these simple terms: when in doubt, keep it out. There is absolutely no way that any kind of consensus can override copyright policy, so the way to fix it was to unambiguously settle the copyright issue, not to arm-wave and shout and count the number of people who want it in. Nick was acting correctly, and I would have done the same (even if not in the same words). The refusal of editors on the Barrington Hall article to accept these facts is a point against them, not against Nick. Guy (Help!) 13:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Uh, no 'I would say youare completely missing the point, and seem not to have read any of the EL discussions, understand what a link is, (or Wiki Copyright policy)...or Barberio's comment that the YT deletion project may be attracting liability to the project. Add it up: senior Google engineer + You Tube + reckless edit warrior "law student." (Please see also below Spartaz' --a member of the deletion minority--comment that continuing the YT discussion in general should happen on that page.) The point where Nick is concerned is: do we want an admin who attracts liability to the project via extremely disruptive edit warring against policy and consensus with the attitude "editors don't count"...when he has no idea/doesn't care who those editors are? Today a senior Google engineer over a You Tube link, what next tomorrow? I say he's a loose cannon; not worth the risk to wiki as an admin--Barberio states he should at least be censured. Perhaps he can be on "YT project revert parole"--allowed only one revert in any You Tube link dispute in which no other member of the deletion minority has also made any reverts, or simply on YT project parole--not allowed any reverts, or the appearance of soliciting them from any of his friends in the project or on IRC. Cindery 14:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you should also take note, Guy, that a member of the five-person deletion minority, JSmith, advised Nick to drop the Barrington matter (but he continued edit warring anyway):

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Sir_Nicholas_de_Mimsy-Porpington/Archive/Archive08#Sometimes_it.27s_time_to_dropit_and_move_on... Cindery 14:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• I haver read the debates, and also read the debate at WT:EL. There seems to be a small group of editors who believe that linking to offsite copyvios is just fine as long as we look the other way and whistle. Wrong. Guy (Help!) 11:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside Comment by User:Barberio

This is just a note to clarify part of this discussion relevant to YouTube linking.

There has never been accepted policy or guideline that Youtube links are automatically undesirable. It is and always has been, both in guideline, and policy, to take each instance of suspected copyvio content on a case by case basis. This issue has been raised multiple times on Wikipedia_talk:External_links and consensus has held to a 'case by case' review, and specifically rejected any 'assumption of guilt' for Youtube links.

A significant minority of admins have acted upon a contrary belief, and use "it's on Youtube, and most Youtube content is copyvio" as the only evidence needed to remove a link. (This has required a special notice to be applied to WP:EL to try and halt this behaviour.) Some of these editors have worked together in use of AWB for semi-automatic link deletion. When coupled with a misunderstanding of the guidelines, and a inappropriate attitude, this behaviour has been quite disruptive, and generated a fair amount of bad will.

It is my personal opinion that involvement in this kind of behaviour has been a black mark to all admins involved, and they should at the least have some amount of censure for being disruptive. --Barberio 13:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this statement

1. Nick repeatedly deleted the link at Barrington Hall because it was a You Tube link--after the copyright holder, a senior Google engineer, verified it as a valid link, and editorial consensus of regular editors of the article was to keep the link. This was incredibly disruptive to the article. Cindery 15:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
2. I haven't looked too much into the YouTube issue, but if it's about linking to a site that contains content where the licensing is questionable, then we would have to remove all links to sites that contain images and text with questionable licensing. This would remove a majority of cited sources. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment

• Removal of YouTube links is possible by any editor and in most cases, they are removing links to YouTube in good faith, trying to prevent legal action being taken against the WikiMedia Foundation. The disruption comes from those who aren't prepared to check the copyright status of videos being uploaded. There are over 10,000 outbound links to YouTube so there does need to be some urgent need to swiftly sort out 10,000+ potential contributory copyright infringements. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 14:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  • My comment is, aside from my personal opinion on the actions of certain admins, a simple report of the current consensus view as reflected in the WP:EL guideline, that some Admins have rejected that consensus, and the result of their actions. You may certainly disagree, and believe that Youtube is a urgent and immediate threat that needs such special methods, but this should be taken up in consensus discussion first to gain support for those methods. WP:EL currently has a specific warning on this issue, placed there to try and stop this behaviour. This warning will stand, until the issue dies down, or consensus is shown to support these actions. --Barberio 15:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
    • There's no need for special measures, 10,000 links aren't going to take that long to sort through and when we do, we can find out what links need to be removed and what links can stay. I'd agree that perhaps anybody removing links to YouTube now without reviewing the content could be classed as disruptive and warned, but we're only talking about a few links here, if the copyright status is uncertain it's up to the person adding in the link to ensure it's properly licenced on YouTube and suitable for linking to from Misplaced Pages. We'd never ask an editor or an admin to determine the copyright status of an image here so why the difference with links. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 17:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Perhaps we can keep the discussion of YT policy on the relevent project page? Anyone interested can find it at Wikipedia_talk:External_links/YouTube Spartaz 18:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Outside view by Shimeru

(edit conflict) While I generally disagree with the contentions put forth in this RfC, I do find certain aspects of it troubling.

Kuntan appears pretty clearly to have been a troll, and deserving of a block on those grounds -- but not necessarily on the grounds of his name. It particularly troubles me that the points raised in defense were ignored, the request for comment on the name closed early and deleted out of process, and SA Jordan attacked (by another admin) for "wasting time defending a troll" (apparently "getting close to the point of disruption") when he pointed the fact out. Admins should take process more seriously than this, even if the end result is overwhelmingly likely to be the same. Blocking for name rather than conduct gives the appearance of ignoring process in order to take the easy way out. I feel it would have been better to do it correctly than to do it expediently.

On AfDs, Nick seems within his discretion for the most part. I would hope that he'd take the contested and overturned decisions as an indication that more careful consideration might be warranted, but I don't see anything abusive or malicious in his closings. The only one I find troubling is the discussion where he closed as keep, citing sources that hadn't been raised during the debate. While I commend his research, it would have been more appropriate to !vote keep or strong keep, bringing up those sources, and to allow another admin to close the AfD. That would have avoided any appearance of a conflict of interest.

Finally, on civility, Nick is at times brusque and at times sarcastic. So am I. So are a lot of editors. Could Nick take an extra moment to read over his comments before he posts them, when he's feeling annoyed, in an effort to avoid coming across that way? Yeah, probably. Is Nick crossing way over the civility line? I don't think so. (Additional comment at 23:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC): I do feel the image linked above was uncalled-for. I don't believe there's an established pattern of incivility.)

I think Nick is, for the most part, an able administrator, who has made some honest mistakes. It seems to me that his primary fault is acting too hastily in some cases. I would encourage Nick to take a little more time before applying an edit or an admin action to be sure he's considered it fully and is acting in accordance with process. But I do not believe that he is acting in bad faith or abusing his admin powers.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Shimeru 01:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Just H 01:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Seems like a good person who is just a little too zealous. However, he's an admin, and admins have to hold themselves to higher standards, so I hope he improves in the future.
3. I'm not "at war" with Nick. I just wish he would observe a lot of the constructive criticism that Shimeru has eloquently stated. I think a lot of his supporters could do well to do so too. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Yay, something Malber and I agree on. -Amarkov _edits 18:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. ---J.S 20:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who mostly agree with this summary but dissent with regards to a few points

1. Thank you for understanding my intentions. About the image, it was intended for Samir and he definitely did not show any resentment. Please have a look at my archives, incidents where I was even discourteous would a rarity. I have been consistently civil with newbie users and others. However, it is always irksome when some user who has consistently been uncivil, leaves civility notices on your talk page (on the lines of WP:KETTLE). As for the "attacking SAJordan part", SAJordan has been a consistently civil editor, however I feel that he has been keeping a constant correspondence with the indef-blocked user Kuntan via email or other means, he also nominated Heligoland's username for an RfC at WP:RFC/NAME, because he was in dispute with him. The username was allowed later. This goes on the verge of being WP:POINTy. Just so you know. — Nearly Headless Nick 08:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Provisional statements

This is slightly unorthodox for an RFC, but this one has been a little muddled, so I've distilled this down to a handful of simple statements people can certify. Please certify each statement individually. Note, these are not recommendations for any kind of action to be taken, just findings of fact. (Please note, I'm only certifying some of the following statements.) --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted re "edit warring at Barrington Hall that Nick returned a month later to restart the dispute (i.e., the link was disputed, the copyright owner verified the link, a great deal of discussion ensued, the link was restored. Then there was a month of calm...until Nick returned, apropos of nothing, to edit war over the link again. The person accused of edit warring with him was User:NE2, a completely neutral party, not a regular editor at Barrington Hall. Editors at Barrington Hall are concerned with Nick's edit warring because it happened twice. What can be done to prevent him from returning once a month to disrupt this article, is our question (and why would Misplaced Pages want an admin who would do any such thing...)

Cindery 18:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

1) Administration activity is not exempt from WP:CIVIL and administrative duties should be handled in accordance.

Certified by:

1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Cindery01:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. – SAJordan _contribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
5. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
7. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Ofcourse. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. No. Really? yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Terence Ong 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
12. If anything, admins should aspire to be more civil when wearing their admin hat than they would be as editors. I recognize that admin duties can be thankless and tiresome, and that no one is being paid, but like police, admins end up taking a lot of actions that can inspire resentment, and a little sugar-coating beforehand can help keep things running smoothly. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
13. I agree with TheronJ above. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
14. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

2) Being an admin is not an entitlement to edit war, and administrators are expected to engage in dispute resolution.

Certified by:

1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. – SAJordan _contribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
5. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Sure. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Aye. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Terence Ong 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
12. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
13. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

3) Admins should only use administrative actions in line with policy, or community decision.

Certified by:

1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. – SAJordan _contribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
5. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. Donald Albury
7. Of course, WP:IAR is policy too. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

4) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington has failed to follow WP:CIVIL while undertaking his admin duties.

Certified by:

1. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. – SAJordan _contribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
4. -- (qualify with "at times") Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. At least on one occasion. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

5) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington edit warred over a link to YouTube in Barrington Hall, refusing dispute resolution.

Certified by:

1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. --Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

6) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington enacted a block in a way inconsistent with policy.

Certified by:

1. --Cindery01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC) (on my block, do not endorse this with regards to block on Kuntun)
3. – SAJordan _contribs 04:23, 31 Dec 2006 (UTC).
4. (on Malber, at least)-Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Yes, I did and I am not proud of it. I plan to start an RfC on Malber's conduct anytime soon, to clear things out. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. We all make mistakes. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Terence Ong 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. One only. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

7) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington enacted multiple AFD decisions that went against the consensus decisions made, or where there was no consensus.

Certified by:

1. --Barberio 00:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. —Malber (talk • contribs) 04:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. -- (two, anyway) Argyriou (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

8) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington has taken no inappropriate actions beyond honest mistakes.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. I sure hope so. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Terence Ong 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

9) User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington's actions were defensible, even if one disagrees with individual actions.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
4. For the most part. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
5. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Terence Ong 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. For the most part. I strongly encourage Nick to try to be extra civil in the future when bopping people with the mop, even with people he considers trolls, and to carefully consider the results of DRV in closing future AFD debates, but I agree that his actions appear to be defensible. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
10. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

10) People in glass houses should not throw stones. WP:CIVIL is a guideline which one is supposed to follow, not use as a stick with which to beat others and many if not all the complainints in this case have also violated WP:CIVIL.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Many not all. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Can I sign my name twice? ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. The violation of WP:CIVIL by others does not, however, justify its violation by the subject of this case. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Absolutely. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Yes, yes and yes. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Terence Ong 09:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment :

1. I'm not sure what this statement is meant for. Clearly, it is accepted behaviour to warn people of their incivility, see {{civil0}}. Neither is the incivility of others a defence for incivility. --Barberio 21:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Two wrongs don't make a right and those with the banhammer should be held to a higher standard. —Malber (talk • contribs) 23:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. I think that "unclean hands" shouldn't be a defense to WP:CIVIL. You should be civil even to people who are acting like jerks. (The jerks, of course, should also be civil). TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

11) The onus is firmly on those seeking to include content, to justify its inclusion. Content should not be re-inserted until objections have been satisfactorily addressed. Credible objections made in good faith should not be ignored.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. This is... weird for an RfC, but...-Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. True, but unrelated to the Edit War issue, where the objections were addressed, but discussion or dispute resolution was rejected. --Barberio 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. However, once justification has been presented, that content should not be re-deleted until evidence backing the objection has been obtained. Good faith works both ways. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. That's the rule, folks. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Absolutely. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
11. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

11a) It is asserted that Nick's actions were "incredibly disruptive" on Barrington Hall. "Disruption" only occurs when people start edit-warring. It takes two (or more) to disrupt an article. The rule is: bold, revert, discuss. The link was boldly added, reverted by Nick, and then this was reverted - which was the first step in the disruption. To avoid disrupting an article, wait until all credible good-faith objections are settled on talk before re-inserting content and links. In other words, it wasn't just Nick who was "incredibly disruptive" on the article, and it is fatuous to suggest that he was the sole cause of the problem.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 14:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. It takes two to tango. But it's still quite clear that Nick was edit warring. --Barberio 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
7. There was no revert-warring. The first edit was in November 2006, the other two were a week apart in December. The one in the middle was not intentional, and made in good faith while using WP:AWB. – — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Per nick. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. I agree with Nick. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

12) Content and links with disputed copyright status should and must be removed and remain removed until such time as the copyright status is unambiguously established to be clean. No amount of supposed consensus can override the much wider consensus behind copyright policy, since violating copyright (either directly or through contributory infringement) places the Foundation in legal jeopardy.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
7. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. We don't want Jimbo in Raiford, do we? yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Subject to the caveat that the dispute regarding copyright status has to be substantial and reasonable. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Rejected by:

1. The standard to remove external links is not the same as the standard to remove content on Misplaced Pages itself, which is that quoted. The standard, as mentioned in WP:EL is that links which we reasonably believe to be copyvio should be remove, we do not require proof of licensing for everything we link to, and such a requirement would be an irrational burden on editors. The expectation is not to 'knowingly' link to copyvio. --Barberio 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Subsequent discussion moved to talk page by Argyriou (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Requiring verifiable copyright status of every external link would make a majority of cited sources invalid. This would break Misplaced Pages. Besides, this RfC is not about YouTube links, it's about admin conduct. User:JzG is attempting to sidetrack the discussion. —Malber (talk • contribs) 23:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Subsequent discussion moved to talk page by Argyriou (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
3. --Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Disputed or unknown copyright status is not sufficient reason to remove an external link; only a strong reason to believe that the link is copyvio is reason to delete the link.

12a) Past disputes have seen users impersonating copyright holders in order to try to get content or links included; it is reasonable to require more than simply the word of an editor who wishes to include content.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
6. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Yup. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Depending on the specifics, certainly. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Rejected by:

1. --Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC) in the case of links, only. The burden of proof for links is on the person claiming copyvio.

Based on? The onus is always on those seeking to include content. Where are any exceptions documented? And if there were exceptions, why would content which may put the project in legal jeopardy be one of them? Guy (Help!) 23:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

13) AfD is not a vote. Admins are expected to close debates using their discretion and based on the balance of evidence. Numerical (even supermajority) support for a result which conflicts with the much wider consensus which underpins policy and guidelines, cannot override those policies and guidelines.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. --Barberio 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. MartinDK 22:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
7. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
9. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
11. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
12. -- yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
13. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
14. Especially core policies and key policies such as copyright and BLP. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
15. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
16. I would not say "cannot override", but rather "should not override". – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

14) In some cases where the debate is complex or the issues not clear-cut, administrators closing debates have been known to make mistakes. A deletion review process exists to fix this. All admin actions can be undone. No admin is required to be infallible.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. --Spartaz 14:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. MartinDK 22:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
7. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
9. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Yes, but I assume that Nick is taking DRV reversals into account in making future AFD decisions. If an admin is getting reversed at an unusally high percentage for an extended period of time, he or she might be better off mopping elsewhere. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
12. Admins do their best. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Rejected by:

1. The existence of an appeals process does not mean lax attitudes and behaviour in handling a process is acceptable. While perfection is imposable, people making mistakes should take responsibility for them, and seek to avoid making them again. --Barberio 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

15) The majority of Nick's disputed deletion closures appear to have at least some credible support from editors in good standing, so are not "abuse of powers", simply judgement calls which are disputed by others.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
3. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. MartinDK 22:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Also notice those who are asserting "This user does not understand copyright polices", and those who take arguments of "conspiracy theories" and "organised Wikipogroms to eliminate YouTube links from Misplaced Pages" as a part of consensus. Users are made administrators for a reason, and that reason is obvious. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. -- yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. All of Nick's AFD judgment calls seem reasonable. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
12. Not just a majority a super majority. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
13. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

16) Kuntan's block has wide support. whether it's for trolling or username is irrelevant. We do not wikilawyer about arbitrary distinctions when it is obvious that the user was here to pursue a personal agenda rather than to build a great encyclopaedia.

Certified by:

1. Guy (Help!) 14:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Trying to make a federal case out of a simple case of dealing with a troll and removing content from a banned user (as proscribed by policy) not only demonstrates vindictivness and poor judgement by some of those bringing the RFC but significantly undermines their core argument. Spartaz 14:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

   Long comment by SAJordan moved to talk page Spartaz 11:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

3. -Amarkov _edits 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
4. ---J.S 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Reserved support. However, the Malber block was still inappropriate. --Barberio 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
6. Absolutely Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Strong support - Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Also, those users who are lawyering for him, should cease their correspondence with him immediately. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
9. Strong support. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Eluchil404 08:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
12. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment:

1. Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC) While Kuntan's block probably is appropriate (I haven't bothered to check; I trust people on this), publishing the proper reason for the block is relevant. Samir did the right thing by removing Nick's block and re-blocking for behavior.

Rejected by:

1. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Distinctions matter. Process is important. Failing to follow process carries the danger that other editors will perceive that an admin is placing himself above process -- "above the law," so to speak. While there may be good reasons to WP:IAR occasionally, nobody should be maing a habit of it. And for a case that was evidently so clear-cut, I cannot imagine that ignoring the process was necessary. And failing to follow the process subsequently on SAJordan's RfC gives the impression of trying to cover up. It may be that Kuntan deserved the block -- I'm not disputing that. But handling it out of process raises questions that would not be raised if the little bit of extra time had been taken in order to handle it properly. Also, I am wary of "the end justifies the means" as an argument.

   Kuntan left many messages in Malayalam. The issue was discussed with editors who are *competent* to deal with it and those who have the trust of the encyclopedia. Please review the contributions of those sockpuppets listed in the categories as linked on User:Kuntan. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

17) Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors - any image is considered suitable viewing for any editor.

Certified by:

1. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 13:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Understanding that this does not say you can post any image to talk pages as freely as a picture of a brick. -Amarkov _edits 04:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Of course, this does not mean that one should go about posting any image anywhere one pleases, nor does it exempt one from WP:CIVIL. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
5. The image was intended for Samir, who did not resent it. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Why is this a fuss? It was for Samir. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. The appropriateness of a paricular image in a given context is subject to discussion and consensus, but aside from vandalism and obvious attacks, is not an infraction. -- Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

17a) Posting an image of an obscene gesture in a discussion is equivalent to posting the text of an obscenity in a discussion.

Certified by:

1. Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
2. --Shimeru 20:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Yeah. So? He was joking with Samir, not telling him to fuck off. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Yes, it's equivalent. And anyone who thinks Nick was not entitled to his joke can fuck off :o) Guy (Help!) 11:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
5. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

18) Removing links to material where the copyright status is unclear, regardless of claims to the contrary by any editor, does not constitute edit warring. Until such time as appropriate copyright can be asserted to be irrefutable beyond any doubt, any link to any material believed to be violating copyright should be removed.

Certified by:

1. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 13:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
3. "Reasonable" is a better wording than "any", but... -Amarkov _edits 04:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Yes. This is consistent with how we handle all other intellectual property problems. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
5. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Rejected by:

1. Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC) I reject the premise of this claim. If Nick had merely removed a link with unclear copyright status, he would not be facing an RfC. There are no complaints about the behavior of Tom Harrison or J.Smith, who also remove large numbers of YouTube links, but who actually discuss their actions when challenged, and who assume good faith when other editors restore those links.
2. Irrefutable by any doubt is too strong, IMHO. I could come up with some doubt as to most of the copyright releases I see. I would say "established by reasonable measures," assuming that "reasonable" is interpreted sufficiently strongly. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

19) It is accepted that false claims of copyright ownership are frequently made on Misplaced Pages in relation to images and video footage both uploaded to the site and elsewhere. It is therefore proper to ask an editor not to upload media or link to media until such a time as irrefutable proof of ownership is produced is reasonable and proper.

Certified by:

1. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 13:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Srikeit 02:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
3. -Amarkov _edits 04:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Yes, this is entirely consistent with policy and best practice. Guy (Help!) 23:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
5. Aksi_great (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
6. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Yup. yandman 09:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
8. Donald Albury 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Rejected by:

1. Argyriou (talk) 06:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC) for links only.
2. Irrefutable is way too strong. TheronJ 16:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Accepted in principle:

1. I agree that "irrefutable" is way too strong, but I do agree with the notion that unless some kind of sensible proof can be made, we should not be giving leeway to such editors uploading/adding such copyvios. – Chacor 10:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Resolution

RfC is about resolving disputes. This RfC is not resolving anything. Those who came here with the intent of censuring Nearly Headless Nick appear to want a remedy which this forum cannot supply (desysopping). Nor are they showing any evidence of amenability to persuasion, as seen in the continued opposition to the block of Kuntan, an account which was used solely for disruption, trolling and personal attacks. I have yet to see a good edit cited from this account. It seems pointless to continue the arguments, especially since some of them are by now historical and superseded by events. If the complainants want to pursue this I suggest they take it to ArbCom. I don't see much profit in further entrenching already entrenched positions. Guy (Help!) 12:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Your reading into the motives of the people involved constitutes a personal attack. It is not acceptable to put words into other people's mouths, or describe them as having ill intents. Failing to accept your side of an argument is not a sign of refusing to listen to it. Saying "If you don't like it, take it to the ArbCom" does not help the discussion.

I do not want or expect a desysopping of Nick. My choice of remedy at the moment would be a hefty warning, and a semi-probation notice that if these kinds of issues cropped up again they would be taken more seriously. --Barberio 12:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Motives? Who said anything about motives? What I said was that this RfC shows a singular lack of any progress towards changing the mind of any of the parties, and the only resolution requested to date, desysopping, is outwith the remit of this process so it's pointless to ask. Guy (Help!) 17:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this one JzG, I try to justify the block of Kuntan, and I end up with demands to change my own username Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/User_names. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 13:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

SAJordan's web of disruption is growing. If this behaviour continues, I'd suggest a community ban -- Samir धर्म 14:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

General note: please see the talkpage of this article (which contain Samir's personal attacks on SA) and the "Encyclopedia Dramatica" issues above. Cindery 18:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any personal attacks? I do see a gigantic block log that you've accrued that makes it hard for anyone to take anything you say seriously. And what does Encyclopedia Dramatica have to do about this? -- Samir धर्म 21:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed resolution

Note, before any resolution is applied, Nick should have a chance to respond here. He has been notified of the RFC, and a week from now (7th January) should be sufficient time to respond. --Barberio 13:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington is informed that he should take more care in his administration duties. He is reminded that edit-warring and personal attacks are not acceptable for any reason, even if there are mitigating circumstances. No punitive actions beyond this censure will be taken, but further instances of inappropriate behaviour will not be tolerated.

Support:

--Barberio 12:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

1. This begs the question of whether the behaviour was inappropriate, or if it was inappropriate, whether this was a result of ill-faith or whether simply an honest mistake. I see little evidence of anyone other than those who were already upset with Nick, being persuaded of the merits of the case against him, and there are several credible assertions above that much of the supposed misconduct is simply casting around looking for isolated incidents on which to pick (and God knows if you're going to start doing that then none of us are probably safe). Little of it rises above the level of trivial. Guy (Help!) 17:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

I would support Arbcom at this point. I think the misuse of blocks against both Malber and Kuntan--and especially, posting a picture of the finger before blocking Kuntan and personally attacking Malber in his apology for wrongfully blocking Malber--as well as intransigently edit warring at a specfic article support Arg's assertion that Nick doesn't have the "temperament" to be an admin. It appears to me that Nick doesn't merely "make mistakes," but that he has shown a pattern of misusing adminship to "settle personal scores." This has a negative effect not just on the people to whom he directly does these things, but to Misplaced Pages/other editors. It doesn't mean he's a bad person or would be a bad editor, but, he shouldn't be an admin. Cindery 18:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You have noticed, haven't you, that Kuntan is now indef-blocked by someone else? I have yet to hear anybody other than a Nick-basher find anything good to say about Kuntan. Take that to ArbCom and they'd likely give him a barnstar for blocking a troll who needed blocking. Guy (Help!) 18:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point that Nick and Samir appear linked in the ED issue re Kuntan, (and on Samir's talkpage, where Nick posted "the finger") and that retaliating on-wiki for off-wiki actions has a deleterious effect on the community, not just the person singled out as a "troll." (I have just been reading the Arbcom case re Mongo and ED...) A block for username by Nick turned into a block for "trolling" by Samir doesn't absolve Nick of misusing the blocking policy--on the contrary, I think it makes it more obvious.

Cindery 19:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point that Kuntan was not here to build an encyclopaedia. As I say, I have never heard a good word about that particular account from anyone other than a Nick-basher. Guy (Help!) 19:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The Arbitration Committee have made several decisions/findings/recommendations relating to ED - please see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO#Links_to_ED --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 19:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This looks to me like an example of a good edit from Kundan after Sundown: . Re Heligoland: yes, I just cited that Arbcom case-I don't understand what you're trying to say. (Or maybe you were just providing the link?) Cindery 19:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Just providing the link. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 19:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.--Cindery 20:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for a 48 hour cool down

I see no reason at all to take this to Arbcom, and think they would not take any action beyond a notice to act with more care that could be given by us here. I think this has clearly turned into a case of entrenched opinions on both sides, and I suspect is being used totally inappropriately to push positions on the Youtube issue. The Youtube issue is separate to this RfC, and there is no reason to keep discussing it or bringing it up here. If this is brought up as a request for Arbitration, I will make a statement that it is my view that this case is being used inappropriately by both sides in a conflict to push a particular opinion on how to handle youtube links.

The issues at hand were the simple ones of conduct, and even there the conduct was not in my opinion grave or abusive but just mistakes to be corrected. That's not to say there was no wrong doing, but it was not grave enough to warrant it needing any special actions beyond a simple notice to Nick to try and moderate himself a little more.

I'm going to ask for all sides on this to back off for a period of 48 hours from now to cool off. The Wiki will not collapse if this issue is not handled immediately, and people are all acting far too rashly. --Barberio 22:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by Sugaar

I'm most concerned about use of indefinte block on a matter of a disputed username. I am also most concerned about blocking threats by sysops and block exerted by sysops being parties in a dispute. In general I'm against blocks unless absolutely unavoidable and that's what policies state and what sysops should abide by. Yet blocks are used too often in unclear cases, creating more confusion and anger than anything else.

I am most concerned also that resources as this RfC and ArbCom are just plainly useless because the unspoken "de facto" policy is that nearly anything and administrator does is accepted and even defended against all evidence by a most worrying Wiki-estabilishment of sysops. No cabals here: just bureaucracy mentality and oblivion of the consensual and grassroots fundamentals of Misplaced Pages.

I believe that assume good faith should be applied specially towards contributors and not specially towards administrators, who should be more accountable than anyone else (and they aren't).

If there was a problem with a username, it should have been solved via RfC. I'm not going to give opinion on deletions agains supermajority, because I have not followed the cases, but it's clear that administrators must obey and not command the community. When administrators become bosses, we have lost all perspective and we are dooming Misplaced Pages. This may not be apparent yet... but it will in few years unless we start acting now and restoring the grassroots fundational values of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages may need administrators but definitively it needs valuable contributors who feel they are respected and not bullied by unconsiderate power-greed admins. --Sugaar 09:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I take it that your comments are directed in general and not at me? — Nearly Headless Nick 09:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Sugaar is still worrying about a short block months ago which has been endorsed by dozens of admins and a request to have developers remove it from his history rejected by ArbCom. The phrase "get over it" sums up community reaction pretty well. I don't think the point is relevant here. Guy (Help!) 10:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, so this is what it comes down to

Distilling out the "oh yes it is" / "oh no it isn't", and the occasional legitimate philosophical differences which do not appear to be specific to Nick, such as YouTube links, what we are left with is this: Nick blocked Malber and admits he should not have. He apologised, but some people don't think that was enough. Nor was Malber's conduct beforehand precisely a shining example.

What issues remain to be resolved in respect of this incident? Guy (Help!) 11:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Nick never apologized for the block, he apologized the the admin who unblocked. But as I've stated before, I don't really care about that, and even disregarding the YouTube links issue you know this is not all about blocks. Even if you think any of the AfDs were closed per policy, the consensus should have been considered, and admonishments to improve the articles should have been given. Closing as "No consensus" would have been the least disruptive action to take.

Have you nothing to say about his incivility? Regardless of what you think about my behavior, even you as his most voiciferous defender can't claim that he has behaved better than, say, Tony Sidaway. And that RfC was entirely about civility. You say that AfD is not a vote, and yet you judge the merits of this RfC on the basis of how many friends Nick has had come to defend him. You characterize this as an attack coming directly from me, yet more than five other editors have certified the complaint. Most of the evidence was not collected by me, I just presented it. Now Nick is threatening a retaliatory RfC against me. I used to admire you as one of the fairer admins. Based on you're onesided and unyielding support of Nick I'll have to reasses that opinion. —Malber (talk • contribs) 13:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You're just not willing to give up your grudge are you? Your behavior has been at least as bad as his. He needs to reduce the sarcasm and biting tone, and you need to improve your civility too. You should both get over it, and learn to be polite even if someone else isn't. The way this RFC has gone I should think it would be blatantly obvious it's not worth spending more time on, and people should get back to articles. Those are the only reason we are here. - Taxman 20:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I would love to let it go and get back to editing. But with Nick threatening a retaliatory RfC that I'll be compelled to respond to, can I? —Malber (talk • contribs) 21:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Easy. You simply drop it. Don't make any more comments, no matter what, and everyone agrees to take the good advice to heart and go on editing and improving articles. If you do that, I'm asking him to do that same thing. If you both do, there's no need for wasting time on another one. You're both good enough editors and otherwise reasonable enough that if you drop this issue and work to improve so you avoid similar in the future, you'll be ok. - Taxman 23:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, "An RfC may bring close scrutiny on all involved editors." It's an occupational hazard of filing a user- or admin-conduct RfC. By filing the RfC and bringing an intense level of community scrutiny to Nick's actions, you took a calculated risk that your own "prior mistakes and bad decisions" might be subjected to the same treatment. MastCell 21:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a retaliatory RfC. Malber's case is of some complex civility issues and WP:POINT, which have been taken too far and for a long time. It is time, the community decides. — Nearly Headless Nick 09:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by Werdna

This RfC is not on one specific dispute, rather an attempt by Malber to find as much dirt as possible on Sir Nick. Obviously, he's found quite a bit - but each individual issue needs to be brought up separately, rather than as a lump sum character assassination.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. — Werdna talk 11:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2. --Barberio 12:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Although I think that some others need to look at their motivations as well. --Spartaz 12:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Terence Ong 13:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
5. – Chacor 10:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

User who mostly agree with the summary:

1. Although, I don't think he's really found quite a bit. — Nearly Headless Nick 12:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse that this is unnecessarily rude, although somewhat true:

1. -Amarkov _edits 03:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by Tango

Nick has made mistakes, but admins actions don't have to be correct, they just have to be justifiable. Nick's justification for his actions is good enough for me - there are procedures to go through to have admin actions undone, and they don't require any kind of punishment of the admin that made them.

However, Nick has been repeatedly uncivil and needs to stop being so sarcastic in his dealings with users he disagrees with. I don't think it's reached the point of requiring desysopping, but it has reached the point of requiring a very firm warning.

--Tango 15:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Endorse on the incivility issue. Nick needs to also consider civility in closing AfD discussions and weigh apparent community consensus along with policy. —Malber (talk • contribs) 16:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2. --Barberio 20:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
3. -Amarkov _edits 03:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Uncivil? Isn't that something on the lines of WP:KETTLE, when you called MONGO "a fool" yourself – ? I never resorted to name-calling, or incivility for that matter. However, I agree I was sarcastic, blunt and discourteous. But WP:COURTEOUS probably does not redirect to WP:CIVIL. Or maybe I am mistaken? Specifically point out the diffs of my "uncivil-ness". — Nearly Headless Nick 09:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Closing

I think everyone has said everything they wanted to say, and this is as resolved as it's going to be. Can we have a general agreement that this issue is closed? --Barberio 22:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreement to close the issue:

1. --Barberio 22:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Samir धर्म 22:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Community consensus on the appropriateness (or lack there of) of Nick's various actions is reasonably clear; as it the lack of the need for any formal remedy such as desysoping. Eluchil404 08:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Not in agreement to close the issue:

1. Actually, this is just starting to get interesting now that other editors not involved in this dispute are finding time to look in after the holiday period. Why close it when its finally getting a wider view? I also notice the YT debate is also getting extra attention apart from the usual combatants - which is good because it was all getting a little entrenched and stale there. All to the good imho. Everyone who is anti-Nick has had their chance to get lots of kicks in while general attention was on turkey and new year's resolutions. Why close this now that the wider community has time to wade in and add outside perspectives? Spartaz 22:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
2. I'm not very familiar with RfCs, but we don't seem to have actually achieved anything, so closing now is giving up on the issue - is that what you intend? --Tango 22:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

   There is no enforcement to an RFC, there is no official "end", per se. An RFC ends if there's agreement to end it, really. – Chacor 09:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)