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Recent reverts

I think it is more correct to include the Lombard-Venetian kingdom in the map, we can speak of the Austro-Hungarian empire with the Lombard-Venetian kingdom included. We speak of the Austrian Empire after 1866, instead when the empire was deprived of the Lombard-Venetian kingdom in the year 1866. Also because the populations of Lombardy-Veneto participated in the conflicts of 1866, under the imperial army, and were medalized by the emperor for the enterprise of Lissa. Sometimes we forget about this thing, I invite those who want to do it to visit Verona, where there are many testimonies of the Austrian "period".

Korwinski,

1. another topic was mainly discussed (about Czech i.e.), it just touched as well related topics, but the result was inconclusive.

2. 1850 has nothing to with Austria-Hungary, and "Ukrainian language" has not even been registered

3. We have to remain consistent, and not base our edits on possible assumptions or OR interpretations. Also in Hungary or in Austria, other languages may have had some kind of status, but not necessarily elevated in such a level, like Croatian or Polish

Hence and considering the source you provided which also does not approve your claim, these changes have no consensus.(KIENGIR (talk) 11:20, 8 July 2020 (UTC))

1. I'm sorry to ask, but did you actually read the discussion above? It started with a discussion about Czech language, but in the end status of all languages was discussed. I do understand that there may be a confusion and misunderstanding of my source, as it is in Ukrainian. But source provided above is in English and it clearly states:

"Wolf, Michaela, The Habsburg Monarchy’s Many-Languaged Soul Translating and interpreting, 1848–1918, p. 63": "To understand complexity of communicative in Monarchy's bureaucracy, it is useful to glance the spectrum of official language use in Austria (…). In 1910, the language of the offices of central government and of the highest level courts was was German. (...) In Galicia, the Landessprachen were Polish and Ruthenian (Ruthenian means Ukrainian in this context) and, in theory, also German;"

So no, it did not have the same "just spoken" status as did Yiddish, Slovak etc.

2. On March 29th 1850 Constitution of Galicia (Template:Lang-pl, ) was adopted, that recognised Polish and Ruthenian as regional languages of Galicia. Later Polish was elevated to government language that meant that it replaced German in most of the government organisations, yet Ukrainian language regional status was still recognised as per Constitution of 1861. For instance see Language act of 1867:

In accordance with the resolution of the Sejm of my Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria and the Grand Duchy of Krakow, I decide as follows:(...)

Art. 1. The right to decide on the language of instruction in folk schools is for those who maintain the school.

Art. 2. If a folk school receives an allowance from public funds, the right to decide which language, Polish or Ruthenian, is to be lectured, is exercised by the commune together with the national school authority in such a way that the commune's decisions are approved by the national school authority.

Art. 3. In any folk school in which some of the young people attending use Polish, and a part of the Ruthenian language, this language, which is not a lecture language, will be a compulsory subject of study within the limits of the relevant school. Beginning in the third grade of all higher folk schools, German is a must-study subject.

Grzegorz Chomicki, Leszek Śliwa, Wiek XIX. Teksty źródłowe. Tematy lekcji i zagadnienia do historii w szkole średniej, Wydawnictwo Literackie, Kraków 2001, s. 241.

3. So far I see 2 sources stated above + 1 of mine that state that Ukrainian (Ruthenian) was in fact one of the recognised Landessprachen languages. So the only "possible assumptions" or "misinterpretations" that I can see come from your side, as so far you had provided us with zero sources that state otherwise. My edit was strictly about Galicia. I don't know why you keep mentioning Hungarian part of the empire over and over here. Korwinski (talk) 13:29, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

1. Of course I read it (I was a participant). No, other languages were not extensively discussed, the IP spammed recurrently with mass information the talk page. Again you have to undestand, calling a language "official" has some weight of level of recognition in this context.

2. Again, this article is about Austria-Hungary, so referring anything earlier than 1867 is not necessarily useful here. Also the Romanian language in Hungary had in some counties some recognition in various levels, however more thousand schools as well, but we could not call them in general terms official regionally or similar.

3. Nobody denied that Ruthenian had some recognition, but again, you own source stated the Polish language, thanks to this normative-legal act, became the official or second state language in Galicia, but it could not tell about Ruthenian...don't worry, I don't misinterpret anything. This article is about Austria-Hungary, so what you put in the infobox or you speak in general languages that were spoken both sides of the monarchy, then we cannot ignore any part.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:45, 11 July 2020 (UTC))

1. Regional language recognised by law and official language are not the same thing. I never said that it was a latter one. Check my edit again. It was used in school, universities, courts, parliament etc. You could not do most of that in Yiddish or other non-recognised language. So a) saying that it is just a spoken language is simply not true, b) if a language has official recognition it should be noted as such as otherwise it is a misleading to say that it isn't.

2. Any source that Constitution of Galicia of 1861 was replaced with anything else after 1867? And again you mention Hungary. And again I'm telling you that situation was not the same there. Rusyn-Ruthenian, Slovak etc. languages were in fact mostly spoken in Transleithania, but I have no idea how does that change language situation in Galicia (and possibly Bukovina, but I'll have to research that first)? Especially since I've quoted above Languages act of 1867 for schools in Galicia that gave no predominance for Polish over Ruthenian.

3. Yeah, you do. As you took only part of the statement there:

Based on the conditions of post-revolutionary events, the Austrian government by the imperial patent of June 29, 1850 adopted the "National Constitution" for Galicia, attaching to it the "National Electoral Ordinance." In our opinion, it is important that in Art. 4 of section I "About the Region" regional Constitution proclaimed a thesis similar to the one proclaimed in Art. 5 of the Olomouc Constitution of the Austrian state, namely: "Ruthenian peoples (Ukrainian - VM), Polish and other ethnic groups enjoy equal rights, and each nation (ethnic group) has an inviolable right to cultivate one's language, one's nationality, one's culture ". So, from the point of view of Austrian legislation, the existence of the Ruthenian people, which has its own language, was recognised, and the equality of the Polish and Ukrainian peoples was proclaimed. Thus, in 1850, Polish and Ukrainian languages ​​have received the status of "regional languages". (...)

The Ministry of Justice explained that the order was issued after the adoption of the Basic Law of December 21, 1867, which recognised the equality of all regional languages, so the order from June 5, 1869, which, although giving the Polish language the status of a government language, did not aim at any restrictions on the rights of the Ukrainian language.

If you'd like to add a note that Rusyn-Ruthenian was mostly just a spoken language in Transleithania, I have no objection to that. But otherwise you'll have to rewrite that whole section and remove for instance Polish, as in Silesia it did not even have the same status as Ruthenian did in Galicia. Korwinski (talk) 11:20, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

1. Sure, a,->ok b,->yes, but the infobox is about official langauges

2. Sure there was a different a situation, I did not say elsewhere, I just mentioned Hungary to illustrate some of the points we are discussing, given this article and the infobox we present something in certain term on equal level.

3. No, becuase the end result is important. However, thank you for the full quotation, it proves being a regional langauge, but not official, as Polish has been raised (which is anyway not mentioned in Silesia, so the infobox is correct).(KIENGIR (talk) 23:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC))

Ok, just to clarify there were only two official languages of the state. Polish, Italian and Croatian were not official languages of the state, but government, regional languages of certain territories of AH. As to my understanding we were including there all languages officially recognised by the law of AH since there're specific territories mentioned were these languages had some specific but not "official language" of the region/state status. So in case your position is to include there only official languages (as in recognised in such status by law) of the state, we will need to remove mentioned languages as well and leave German and Hungarian only. As these are the only two languages that had that status.

Polish was raised to government language which according to the source above meant that most of Galicia's government paperwork was from now on done in Polish. My source does not say that it became official language even of Galicia alone. German was still a de facto language for Post, Railways etc. So in case you're implying that regional government language == official language, please provide us with a source to confirm that. Korwinski (talk) 23:47, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, if speak about clarification, we speak about a monarchy of two states, not one state. We may remove Italian regarding Fiume, but not Croatian, since it has been the official language of the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, also regulated by the Croatian-Hungarian settlement. No, I don't necessarily imply regional government language would == official language, but egarding the possible removal of Polish I have concerns, since it has been once added and argued, we should check how exactly Austrians defined official language, and if Polish could be raised higher than any other language but would remain always lower then German everwhere. Let's give a time for this, if nothing occurs supporting, then we may remove Polish also.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:30, 14 July 2020 (UTC))

Yeah, but in case we will leave it for now as it is, any reader would assume that a) Polish and Croatian were official languages of AH in mentioned territories, which wasn't true at least about Polish language in Galicia; and b) that other languages like Ruthenian, Romanian or Czech were a spoken languages that did not have any official recognition which as well isn't true. So what is the point of languages section at all since it has such major misleadings there? Currently I propose to either remove all languages but German and Hungarian, or keep it the way I made my edit earlier adding a note to each language. For latter one as an example see Mexico and Austria articles that have such languages included in designated regional languages section.

Also as we established that Ruthenian was in fact officially recognised language in Galicia and no source was provided for the same status of Yiddish I assume there will be no objection for me to return my edit in Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria article? Korwinski (talk) 10:16, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

a, just for a week, if noone present any contra, Polishin Galicia will be removed as well

b, they were not official languages like Hungarian, German or Croatian. This whole discussion have been about to conclude in case Polish or Ruthenian could have been the same level, so far we seen Polish has been raised higher, so no contradiction here

So again, if noone present anything for pro Polish referred above, it will be removed and the section will be consistent. Mexico and Austria articles are irrelevant here, since they are modern states.

No, we did not establish such, we still trying to conclude even Polish could have been regarded official, so no.(KIENGIR (talk) 15:10, 15 July 2020 (UTC))

It has been more than a week already. So far you yourself had presented us with 0 (ZERO) sources to prove your statements. No offence, but at this point your personal opinion on whats "irrelevant" and whats not, which languages should be stated as official/officially recognised and which not is no longer valid. If not reverted, I will be forced to request Administrators mediation. Korwinski (talk) 11:10, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I suggest you to calm down, the discussion was clear, we gave chance to other to join the discussion, it has been not a deadline rush. Your overreaction is unnecessary, since we obviously set it will be removed - and it has been done right now, so you could have spared your last two sentences.(KIENGIR (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC))

Wrong flag

As the article itself says, the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy did not have a national flag. As can be seen in the infobox of this article as well, before the merger both the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian Empire used the black-and-yellow flag of the Habsburg Monarchy, which, as the article also says, was for that reason occasionally used as the flag of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. It makes no sense, therefore, leaving in the flag field of the infobox a "civil ensign" created for being used by civilian ships. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 18:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

This isse has been widely and extendisely discussed earlier.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC))

Can you present to me the discussion and the supposed "consensus"? Just saw Talk:Austria-Hungary/Archive_1#Flag_of_Austria-Hungary, former discussion where it was actually discussed that it was wrong having this naval ensign in the article. We should just remove this non-national-flag. It's simply a false information displayed in Misplaced Pages. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 19:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Of course (), how could you miss a last year discussion and pointing to around more then 14 years old one?(KIENGIR (talk) 21:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC))

And, differently from what you said, the result of last year's discussion you just posted was "No consensus" as only three people participated, you being one of them. So here I am, yet another person making the same claim made by User:Havsjö last year and others 14 years ago. A civil ensign is not a national flag, I'll ask for external moderation here. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 22:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing differently, no consensus means no consensus for change and last stable version remains, so stop your recurrent reverts.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC))

Everyone associates the civil ensign with the duel monarchy, why not leave the civil ensign at the top and provide a link to the national flags? I made an account just to voice my opinion on this. I realize Austria and Hungary had different flags, I'm not stupid. Just leave the old flag up but clarify that it's not a nation flag. ArkayTheGreat (talk) 19:31, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Request for comments on correction of the flag

I got to the Austria-Hungary Wiki article some time ago and immediately noticed it displayed a wrong flag - in the place of the "country" flag, a "civil ensign" created for being used by civilian ships. As the article states, the country had no official flag, but the Habsburg flag, which as the article also shows was the official flag of both the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian Empire, was frequently used as an official flag. Since there existed no official flag, I believe the article should just not have any flag at all (like in the German wiki). I believe there is absolutely no reason why a naval "civil ensign" should be displayed in the place of the country flag. The exactly same point has apparently been made throughout the years - 15 years ago there was consensus that it was wrong but after the correction someone re-added the wrong civil ensign without discussion; in 2016, another user pointed out the same mistake, and the only response was agreeing with his comment and presenting a historical source in which the black-and-yellow Habsburg flag was used for the country; finally, in 2019, yet another user politely indicated that the flag was wrong, only 3 people participated in the discussion which was therefore short of a consensus, but yet another user concluded it was sensible to add the yellow-and-black flag to the article, except that it was removed afterwards by the same user who has removed it twice today. So I think we need the help of some experts here, which would be very much appreciated. Thanks. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

As pointed out the above section and as well here by referring to the discussion thoroughly about the topic and it's special details discussed there last year (thus won't reiterate here), my offer still stands about a this kind of infobox, which may be the best solution (), which was presented in a fellow editor's sandbox.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC))

And what about Template:Country data Austria-Hungary ? Loic26 (talk) 13:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately it doesn't seem historically correct either to display both the Habsburgs' flag, who ruled the entire empire, and the flag of just Hungary. Differently from what Wiki says without sources, the black-and-yellow flag wasn't also the flag of "Cisleithania", which has never even existed formally. I've spent the day reading all I could in old sources about the "national" flags used in Austria-Hungary and what I have are sources indicating that actually the red-white-red flag was used to represent the Austrian part - and sometimes even ended up being used for the entire dual monarchy. For example:

In 1786 the red - white - red flag became the Austrian state flag and ensign and, until 1869, the merchant flag (which had as an additional charge the shield with a crown) ; in Austria-Hungary it served as the national flag, the state flag being black and yellow. Webster's Concise Encyclopedia of Flags & Coats of Arms

and:

It is therefore not surprising that were the colors declared as the national flag of Austria by Emperor Joseph II on March 20, 1786. It was also the naval and mercantile ensign. The red-white-red flag superimposed with the double-headed eagle bearing the red-white-red banded shield was the flag of the Austrian merchant until 1869 and - at least de facto - the national flag and battle ensign of the dual monarchy until 1918.

Therefore, according to these sources, it seems the historically correct position would be to have the red-white-red flag displayed in the Wiki box below the black-yellow one. Even though I have found no sources for it, I believe we could, as a compromise, also let the Hungarian flag in the infobox after the other two, making it three flags in total. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 20:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

- Loic26, I don't think that template would solve the problem, since it contains those flags that may be as well/similarly disputed.

- IP, Cisleithania existed. The Habsburgs ruled phrase should not be slubbered, the was the Emperor of Austria and the King of Hungary, which was the same person from the Habsurg House, but Austria and Hungary were separate states in a joint monarchy. Dragovit's solution has been almost accurate, but the Coat of Arms I'd keep as in the proposal shown above, and would remove the reference to the civil ensign, that is anyway may be seen below in the article at the fags section.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC))

I agree with colleague and join his side, that there is a wrong flag in the infobox. Perhaps previous debates have failed because no one has tried the option of both national flags, but I did (see here). Maybe it wasn't technically possible before, maybe the infobox wasn't that sophisticated, so the participants in the discussion may have come to the conclusion that they will use the Merchant ensign as a compromise. I don't know, I wasn't there. By the way Misplaced Pages is an open-source project and to say we can't edit because something happened in the past it does not matter. Using both national flags is the best solution. So therefore, please do not return my version to a older one where the flag is demonstrably wrong and inappropriate, because the use of two national flags is a better and more appropriate solution than use of the Civil or Merchant ensign of Austro-Hungarian navy as a symbol of "corporate identity" at the place where the state flag is to be displayed, which only these two flags are suitable for. Please do not put the Merchant ensign there anymore, it's not a national flag. – Dragovit (talk) 8:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

• Remove flag (ensign). The current article is forcing a late 19th century construct (flags of Nation states, arising from Revolutions of 1848) on a declining empire that was very much not a nation state. Vici Vidi (talk) 07:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree, it's confusing. In addition, the article represents Austria-Hungary as a dual monarchy, so the combination of the two flags should not be surprising. – Dragovit (talk) 10:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I did some "cleaning" of the flags in the infobox. I replaced the angels-flag with the more common version of the flag without the angels. I also corrected the text, since its showing the flags of Austria and Hungary. (i.e. not Transleithania) as Transleithania had both the Hungarian and Croatian flag as co-flags. The superfluous and awkward info regarding more info about the civil ensign is also confined into the note regarding usage of that national flags vis-a-vis that civil ensign with is already included. --Havsjö (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Everyone should have first here presented the proposals, instead of edit-warring, Dragovit, you have to understand our policies, especially WP:BRD. The problem is as well that you reverts reintroduced some IP junks as well. I will now accept Havsjö's solution, but only with the angel flags, since then that was valid.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC))

I never revert anything for no reason. I revert once, if it doesn't help, then I choose a discussion. I don't see anything wrong with that. Reverting edits is a common feature in Misplaced Pages. If it wasn't allowed, it just wouldn't be here. Havsjo focused on my edits and I suspected him was directed against me or it seemed to me that his changes were influenced by his personal taste, which he then explained why he had done so. I emphasize that the article is about history and must be edited with respect for history and must not be influenced by taste or personal interests. – Dragovit (talk) 19:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, WP:BRD is clear, especially when the discussion is already ongoing in the talk, as well per wikietiquette, reversion should only be made to the status qou ante version, while any concerns including others should be discussed an the talk first, and only if consensus reached editing the article.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2020 (UTC))

• I have restored the consular flag per the last RFC. It should not be changed until this discussions is closed. Better no flags, IMO, than two, neither of which is Austro-Hungarian. My position, as stated last year, is that the consular flag is the best symbol of the Austro-Hungarian state internationally. I am not adamantly opposed to the black-and-gold, but we should be clear (as we are in the current footnote) what exactly it meant if indeed it ever was a symbol of the state. Srnec (talk) 14:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

It was I who opened this discussion, and, even though I still think that only the black-and-yellow banner should be used, with a disclaimer as you say, I was fine with the proposed solution of two flags, all in the sake of consensus. What I think we had clearly already moved on from, though, was that the "civil ensign" should never have been there and should definitely be removed, regardless of what should be put in its place. Therefore, and considering the manifestations for removing the civil ensign previously made by Gugganij, Peregrine981, Alexander Fischer , Eromae, Special Contributions: 202.0.15.171, Havsjö, Loic26, Dragovit, Vici Vidi, and finally supported by KIENGIR and myself, all in favor of the removal of the civil ensign, I believe the article should continue the way it has peacefully been for the past two weeks, having attained only one point of consensus among the eleven afore-mentioned users (the removal of the civil ensign). Thanks a lot. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 17:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Srnec, your move was legal in terms of WP rules. However, Austria-Hungary was not a state, but a monarchy of two states, even if outside the conflated assasment became common. Yes, I would better support current outcome or the previous offer with two coat of arms outlined at Havjö's sandbox then.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC))

It was a state in international relations. The current situation—two flags neither of which was that of Austria-Hungary—is bad. The civil ensign was an internationally recognized symbol of A-H and was used by the gov't as such. It is bizarre to me to label an Austro-Hungarian flag as "wrong" while replacing it with two flags nobody considers Austro-Hungarian. If there is no flag that can represent Austria-Hungary, then there should be no flag in the infobox. Srnec (talk) 00:45, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It was considered a state in international relations, while it was a monarchy, etc. International recognition here does not count, every entity may choose freely it's flag. I agree with you it's a complicated situation anyway.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC))

Just for the record: I explicitly endorse the removal of the civil ensign - no wonder, I already objected to it 16 years ago :-). The current solution is definitely an improvement. Gugganij (talk) 20:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see much of a problem anymore. The same source (book) from which this civil ensign was taken in the first place clearly states that the Austro-Hungarian government itself and its diplomatic missions (legations, as they were called at the time) always used two flags, the black-and-yellow and the red-white-green one. I had also found other sources, listed above, that say the black-and-yellow flag was often used to represent the whole of Austria-Hungary, but I believe the current situation, showing both flags, is the most possibly accurate one. One completely different question regards the thumbnail flag to be used in Template:Country data Austria-Hungary, where only one image can be used; sources provided would indicate two possibilities: either the black-and-yellow flag, if we followed the sources that say it was used in practical ways as the country flag, or not having a flag-thumbnail there. The thumbnail of the coat of arms could be used instead, if no one objects to it. Cheers. 213.245.147.96 (talk) 17:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Gugganij, Loic26, et al, what about the template Template:Country data Austria-Hungary ? Would you agree with having a thumbnail of the coat of arms replace the flag-thumbnail? 213.245.147.96 (talk) 21:29, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

According to the infobox, it should be like this : Austria-Hungary. Loic26 (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Ah, cool, I didn't know two images could be used. Could you please make the change, then? 213.245.147.96 (talk) 16:46, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

IMO, that could become a bit bloated. if a change to countrydata/thumbnail was to be made, I would rather support only the Habsburg flag in that context. --Havsjö (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

No, only administrators can edit the template. Loic26 (talk) 21:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

In case of changing template, I support the double flag, it would be coherent with the current state of this article, and would symbolize correctly the monarchy of two countries.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC))

While I am not averse to the double flag, I think no flag at all is better. There was no one flag, it was more complicated and flag or heraldry use varied by context. Vici Vidi (talk) 07:33, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I too would prefer no flag to the double flag if consensus is that the consular flag is misleading (although I still think it's not). Srnec (talk) 13:34, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

From my researches, I think the yellow-and-black flag would be the one used in such occasions, but, for the sake of consensus, I too support not displaying any flag at all in the Template data countrydata/thumbnail, as no national flag existed. 213.245.16.198 (talk) 19:46, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

How is the "de-facto national flag" of Habsburg dynasty not a better choice than no flag at all, when flags existed which were historically used to represent the country? The currently used "empty flag" for the flag-template also looks like an error/glitch or something --Havsjö (talk) 14:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

It seems like the best option would be: Austria-Hungary. There should be only one flag, and in that case it seems like the Habsburg flag would be used. Gravestep (talk) 15:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

References

1. https://books.google.fr/books?hl=pt-BR&id=YgIAOklnOOMC&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22became+the+Austrian+state+flag+and+ensign+and%2C+until+1869%2C+the+merchant+flag+%28which+had+as+an+additional+charge+the+shield+with+a+crown%29+%3B+in+Austria+-+Hungary+it+served+as+the+national+flag+%2C+the+state+flag%22   Webster's Concise Encyclopedia of Flags & Coats of Arms
2. https://books.google.fr/books?id=Ly4iAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA7&dq=1786+austria+flag

I still uphold the best would be the double designation soltution, not supporting the yellow-black-flag standalone.(KIENGIR (talk) 09:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC))

May I interject?

I am quite displeased to see so many infoboxes I worked on now with a blank rectangle where the AH flag should be. I find it quite pointless to change the flag now, after so many years in which it was used. Regardless of what the old flag represented, it was an official ensign of the Dual Monarchy, fairly representing both countries, neatly and conveniently suitable for infoboxes. I only skimmed through the talk, and I must concur against the usage of two flags for one country. I definitely oppose the usage of only the black-yellow one, because it fails to represent the Hungarian half, and that is quite plainly unfair. As long as it's an official flag - civil or otherwise - which fairly represents both halves of the country, it should - in my opinion - be good enough. If one such flag can be found that's a better representative than the old one, good, bring it forth. But otherwise, the old one was just fine. Transylvania1916 (talk) 18:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Edit: I think I found the solution for a common flag, but, it's not one currently available, someone in the know should digitally render it. It's the mixed flag used in this Central Powers propaganda poster. Transylvania1916 (talk) 05:51, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Transylvania1916: Just some quick info if you were unaware, but there are many instances where only the black-yellow flag, likely used as the "Flag of the Habsburg dynasty" rather than as "Flag of Austria" was used by its own as the "flag of Austria-Hungary". (Although not really in very formal, "official" contexts such as by embassies etc, but rather when "casually" listing flags of the world and so on (in the then contemporary times))--Havsjö (talk) 07:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Come to think of it, it does make sense. For while the Austrian and Hungarian halves were officially equal, the monarch reigning over both in personal union, was, after all, a Habsburg. I still mostly air on the side of keeping the old civil ensign flag, for infobox purposes at least. Transylvania1916 (talk) 09:15, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Here is 1917's Flags of the World. Perhaps you can find the black-and-gold flag in it. I can't. Civil ensign is pretty prominent though, along with the military one. Srnec (talk) 23:38, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, agree with Gugganij, Peregrine981, Alexander Fischer , Eromae, Special Contributions: 202.0.15.171, Havsjö, Loic26, Dragovit, Vici Vidi and original poster Special Contributions: 213.245.147.96 that using a merchant ensign that was never an official flag in the place assigned to the national flag is not "encyclopedic". As all these before me, I support either using the Habsburg flag, as they were the reigning House of the Empire and sources have been presented where their flag was used to represent the Empire, or otherwise I support not having any flag at all, as it has been clearly established that it didn't exist an official national flag. Having a merchant ensign or something else in the place of the national flag just because we feel it's nicer to have a representative image rather than a blank space (when the truth is that a national flag didn't exist) is anachronistic and non-encyclopedic, in my opinion. Arrasarro (talk) 09:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

National flag could not exist if we are discussing about two separate country's monarchy. Srnec's arguments are strong, however, the current solution is as well fine with me, but no support for only Austria's (or Habsburg) flag.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:09, 17 September 2020 (UTC))

"Administrative divisions and the counties of Hungary" & "Municipal rights of the biggest cities in Hungary"

I removed this section from the article and User:KIENGIR has restored it. KIENGIR is a knowledgeable editor and that may be the right call. My justification for removing it was that: (1) the article already has a heading at the top claiming that it is too long; (2) the text in question is copied directly from the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 - it is even still in the present tense!; (3) the material in question is a detailed list of all the Hungarian-Croatian counties. There is no similar list of Cisleithanian laender (even though these were significantly more salient divisions), so there is a good case for this being excessive detail; (4) A full list of the Hungarian-Croatian counties in their individual circles is provided in List of administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary (which could be linked to at the start of section 4.3.2 Kingdom of Hungary (Transleithania)). I am also a bit unclear why KIENGIR has removed the nice File:Austria-Hungary map.svg. Furius (talk) 00:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi,

thanks for your precise contributions so far! Well, the map you added is already present at a lowe section, you may add a map solely highlighted to Austria as you did with Hungary. Regarding the administrative divisions, I'll try to solve your concerns somehow, however I have no objection to add Austrian counterpart. Cheers.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC))

Fair point about the map. I've tried to incorporate your revised version into the preceding section - I think that I've done that without the loss of any information. Apologies for not responding here before doing that - it only occured to me afterwards that I might be jumping the gun. I'm not really keen for a list of the Cisleithanian Laender because it would increase the length of the article further... Furius (talk) 17:59, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

World War I

The "World War I" section is a bit odd, as a very detailed narrative account in an article that does not otherwise contain narrative history. I wonder whether it should be spun off as a separate article History of Austria-Hungary during World War I (cf. History of Germany during World War I or Ottoman Empire during World War I) and replaced with a shorter account here as part of a general 'History' section, which would also cover 1867-1914. I'm not exactly sure how the latter part would be done; much of the material for the latter is probably already present in the "Politics" section... Furius (talk) 00:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

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