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Revision as of 00:20, 8 January 2007

Oslo update

This line pretty obviously needs revision: "After the Oslo accords, an independent Palestine of some sort, at some time in the future seemed relatively certain" ('Outcome' section, no.4). The peace process being dead, annexed East Jerusalem and the settlements having expanded, the Jordan Valley all but annexed to Israel, and given the now obvious truth that no Israeli concessions of any substance were made at Oslo, it's quite clear that what is relatively certain is that an independent Palestinian State is unforeseeable without drastic change in the situation.

It is hard to discern a rational purpose behind the first Intifada, as the Palestinians had no realistic hope of defeating the Israelis, and peace was available if the Palestinians had been willing to accept a limited Palestinian State. Prior conflicts in the Arab-Israeli conflict had the purpose destroying Israel entirely, but the first Intifada lacked this clear focus. It is also hard to discern any benefit that has accrued to the Palestinian people from the first Intifada, as the Oslo accords were enabled only when the PLO expressed more willingness to recognize Israels' right to exist. And, of course, the Oslo accords have accomplished virtually nothing. However, the general level of Palestinian militancy was probably increased and inspired by the first Intifada, which some Palestinians regard as a positive result.

What is this? BL 03:35, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It seems relatively true, but slightly misworded. The only untrue part was the Oslo accords: it brought some silence and peace, something never achieved before, at least without a one-side decision.

Not NPOV

The article is not neutral, and supports the intifada throughout. For example, in the conclusion "Some say it was the Intifada that caused the repeated rise of the Israeli peace movement (see Peace Now), and Yitzhak Rabin's eventual re-election in 1992. " It does not mention that others believe it is responsible for an increase in the militant movement.

Furthermore, while the causes of intifada and the harms against Palestinians by Israelis is discussed:

"On October 1, 1987 Israeli military ambushed and killed seven men from Gaza believed to be members of the Jihad. Several days later an Israeli settler shot a Palestinian schoolgirl in the back."

"However, the general underlying cause of the intifada can be seen in the many years of military control that the Palestinians suffered under the Israelis.

Arabs maintain that the Intifada was a protest of Israel's brutal repression which included extra-judicial killings, mass detentions, house demolitions, indiscriminate torture, deportations, and so on. "

I cannot find any assessment whatsoever of the violence against Israelis that occured during the Intifada.

"The mere presence of stories, reinforced by the real incidents above, caused wild panic and street fights against Israeli policemen and soldiers"

is the only statement on the other side, but it doesn't talk about how soldiers were killed, and the Israeli civilians are never mentioned.

Basically, the article discusses the negative effects on one side (the Palestinians) without discussing how the other (the Israelis) was hurt.

Another disturbing factor is that the only criticism of the Intifada is that it didn't go far enough: "Others point out that Palestinians felt abandoned by their Arab allies, the PLO had failed to destroy Israel and establish a Palestinian state in its stead as promised. "

The article failed to point out another very common point of view - that it hurt Israel and was too violent a reaction. Additionally, the goal of "destroy Israel and establishing a Palestinian state in its stead" is not thought of as a positive goal by most groups.

Moreover, this sentence is ridiculous: "Israeli military occupation of Southern Lebanon - rife with war crimes - and the continued Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza fed a growing discontent with the colonial status quo." 'Rife with war crimes'? Place any other country in the region in the situation that Israel found itself in, and I think you'll find it a whole lot 'rifer.' And don't use words like 'colonial' unless you're going to apply them equally to the numerous other, much more proactive occupations in the world. Israel never asked to get invaded. 64.231.208.200 01:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

one addition to not NPOV argument

The timeframe description "The first Intifada was the intifada that took place from 1987 to 1991 (end of massive Israeli violence)" is definitely non-neutral. It implies that the violence was one-sided, and "massive" is an unecessarily weighted word.

I suggest using the description from the Intifada article "The first Intifada began in 1987, with a decrease in violence in 1991 and a more complete end with the signing of the Oslo accords (August 1993) and the creation of the Palestinian Authority. "

--The Israel response WAS massive. The word is weighted because the response was weighted.

I believe the above quote is quite accurate, this account of the intifada has obvious sympathies for the Palestinians, I think it would be to the credit of the article to admit its preoccupation. That said, I'm not quite sure including Israel's military losses would compliment the peice; its not suprising that soldiers tend to bear the burden of warfare. While I also agree with the critique, i'm not quite sure I accept the stance that the Intifada provided no impetus for the peace process. Surely even the most sensitive surveys of Israeli history, which account for the activities of zionist paramilitaries during the mandatory period, are aware of the political potential of violence. Make no mistake, that assertion is not an endorsement of militancy but a simple observation.

• Ibn Filastin, IBanerjee@slc.edu

Seems to have been edited to address some points

I agree that the article could do with some casualty figures to put the conflict into some sort of perspective, maybe with a time line showing escalation/decline of violence. However it currently reads neutral to me, it is difficult when you have passionate feelings on a subject to not interpret neutrality as an endorsement of a viewpoint other then your own, but as I said this looks okay.

How many Palestinians killed each other?

On the one hand, we have Additionally, over 1,000 alleged informers were killed by Arab death squads.... On the other, By the time the Oslo Accords were signed, 1,162 Palestinians and 160 Israelis had died... (killed by the Israeli security forces). Benny Morris, cited by Alan Dershowitz, gives the number as 400 by the signing of the Oslo accords. What's the deal? grendel|khan 20:15, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

The deal is, the numbers need to be cleaned up using cited sources. Jayjg 20:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the ones from B'tselem, probably the best source 1,162 etc are right - I just recalculated them and cleaned them up and made the article consistent with the source, which does not report them this way. Major discrepancies probably come from changing dates, different areas covered, not separating adults and children, etc. Not all of these 1,162 were killed by the security forces, though. The death squads number just introduced sounds high to me (and vaguely dated, more than 10 years post facto) and the Morris number sounds low. This article needs work, and I was planning on doing some, based on Morris's chapter in Righteous Victims and Aryeh Shalev's book, which should give the Israeli govt POV. Schiff and Ya'ari's book would be another good source. Earlier versions had valid information which has disappeared from the article. --John Z 22:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

7 members of the islamic jihad

The article talking about pre-intifada events, says that on the 1st of October 7 palestinians were killed by the israili military, and that it is belived that they were members of the PIJ, any reference that shows that they were belived to be members of PIJ, who claims so, any denials? was the assisination conducted by the IDF, by a civilian or by a solder without orders to do so? were the 7 workers in israel? --Mayz 22:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Uprising

Why does the writer talks about the intifada as an uprising? that way the Palestines are brought in discredit. Israel is their country just as much as it is of the Jews. It's terrible what the Jews have done to the Palestines though by locking them up in their own country, but the terrorist attacks are so unnecessairy because a lot of innocent people die. Just wanted to say that both parties are equal to me and just a small change wouldn't be that hard, would it?

Neutral term isn't it? Warsaw uprising in WWII was by Poles in Poland.

Warsaw Uprising was aimed exclusively against occupant soldiers. No Pole ever dirve to Berlin to blow himself up in local kindergarden.

Using the term 'The Jews', is incorrect. It is not the entire Jewish population who have 'locked up' the Palistinians (although in my opinion the situation as a whole is far more complicated than that) it is the Israelis. Please understand, not all Jews are Israeli, and not all Israelis are Jews.

Palestinian Minors versus Israeli Children

I'm not sure I understand why in the outcome section the casualties are listed either by Palestinian minors or as Israeli children. Along with the fact that the editor somehow determined from the statistical information in the cited source that these Palestinians casualties took an "active role" I'd say this constitutes a disregard for NPOV. I'll change it for now, if anyone disagrees please feel free to explain. CRobey 16:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Children took active role in Intifada for example stone and molotov cocktail throwing

I understand that there were children that took an active role in the Intifada. I am wondering where the editor got the information that of the 241 children that were listed, most of them took at active role. Just because we know that children took a role in the violence, we can't just randomly assume that most of the children that were killed were actively involved. Unless there was some chart in the cited source that listed actively involved versus innocent bystander deaths I don't see where this comes from, it seems to show an assumption of the editor that most of the Palestinians killed were somehow actively involved. I'm not arguing one way or another; I’m just saying unless the claim can be substantiated, it shouldn’t be listed, otherwise it's not just a problem with NPOV but factual accuracy. CRobey 00:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

As it was changed back without further comment I'll take one more crack at this. The first problem is the use of the term minor versus child, minor simply implies age whereas child seems to imply innocence. In order to be consistent and unbiased, either call them both children or both minors. The second problem, which I won't change for now (as perhaps I'm the only one that sees this as bias), seems to imply the death of the Palestinian children who died can be justified by their role in the violence. Also, the implication that they were involved in something that is unsubstantiated by the B'Tseelem source. I won't change it, but I wouldn't consider removing the neutrality warning with something like this remaining unsourced in there.

84.108.166.136 (rv POV)

Dear 84.108.166.136, You reverted my edit of Islamic Jihad from militant back to terrorist. Militant is the NPOV term, and not terrorist. Most people would agree on calling them militant, while there is controversy calling them terrorists. The article on Palestinian Islamic Jihad clearly states that the US and Israel consider it a terrorist group. However the US and Israel's opinion cannot be used as a given fact. Please use militant (If nobody else changes it, I will, unless an explanation is given to why it is necessary to use the word terrorist here). --Fjmustak 22:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that I'd agree that militant is the same as terrorist just in NPOV terms. I think there is a difference in definition of the term. Militancy just refers to the use of violence, Terrorism refers to the use of violence to achieve specific political goals. I don't know enough about Islamic Jihad that I would be able to classify the entire group. As I remember back when they were originally formed they were more radical fundamentalists rather than militants. I'm not suggesting labeling it one way or the other, just pointing out the difference is not truly just in POV.

I suggest removing the word completely, and leaving it as 'Palestinian Islamic Jihad group', or just 'Palestinian Islamic Jihad', without group. If one wants to learn more about PIJ, one could click on it and read the different opinions on it. --Fjmustak 23:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Cause

How the hell did you turn it into a traffic accident...the driver hit the four workers on purpose

"Indiscriminate torture"

I am very disturbed by the claim in the "General causes" section that "Palestinians and their supporters assert that the Intifada was a protest of Israel's brutal repression which included ... indiscriminate torture." This is a very serious charge and if it is not backed up by solid evidence, I would like it to be deleted. The burden of proof is on the "Palestinians and their supproters" to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Israelis not only tortured Palestinians, but that they tortured Palestinians indiscriminately, that is that they tortured Palestinians without reguard to age, sex, religion practiced, or, most importantly, criminal record. --GHcool 22:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

re "indiscriminate torture"

The claim is accurate. Palestinians did assert that indiscriminate torture was one of the reasons for the intifada. Whether it is true or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that they thought it was true. trapnhawk

indisctiminate torture

I guess Palestinians did beleve that Israelis wer eindiscriminitly torturing people because of the propaganda they heard. It's not only anti Israeli but actually anti-Semetic and anti Western.