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Current disputes

Frédéric Chopin

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Frédéric Chopin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chip-chip-2020 (talk · contribs)
• Nihil novi (talk · contribs)
• Smerus (talk · contribs)
• kosboot (talk · contribs)
• François Robere (talk · contribs)
• Toccata quarta (talk · contribs)
• Glissando1234567890 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An extensive discussion started a couple of weeks ago about Chopins love or sexual life or desires. Some users seem to dominate the discussion, by refusing some sources harshly and by welcoming other sources quite uncritically. Some are starting to be quite rude, commenting „Yawn“ or so. It is also interesting that some users demand more and more proof for homosexual actions or desires, but can‘t provide proof of the same quality for heterosexual actions or desires.

A resolution, which was brought up by a number of users in that talk, would be to complete the article with 1-2 quotes by Chopin, taken from his letters, where he clearly wrote about his desires. It would also be nothing but transparent, to add 1-2 portraits of addressees to the article, addressees Chopin wrote to the most letters. Like this, the readers could read themselves what Chopin wrote and build their opinion on their own. Also a section about the quite large discourse on the topic would be nothing but transparent.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Frédéric_Chopin#Chopin’s_sexuality

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Perhaps guide the talk, so that not 2-3 users dominate the discussion. Ask for reliable sources of a comparable quality from both sides, judge the quality of the sources, help finding a solution. Bring back more friendlyness, politeness and, most important, more impartiality to the talk.

Summary of dispute by Nihil novi

The discussions in question ("Chopin's sexuality", on the "Talk:Chopin" page) have largely centered on brief ambiguous passages from several letters that Chopin wrote in 1829–30 to his schoolmate Tytus Woyciechowski – which passages Moritz Weber, in a 7 December 2020 Swiss Radio and TV program, "Chopin was gay and no one must know about it", interpreted as indicating that Chopin was homosexual.

The dispute appears to have been resolved in a balanced, neutral way by Smerus (in the "Chopin" article's "Gender and sexuality in music and life" section), to the satisfaction of most parties except, notably, for Chip-chip-2020, who seems to have first brought Weber's views to the "Chopin" article and talk page.

Thank you.

Nihil novi (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Smerus

Nothing to say that is not on the talk page. There is no dispute here, only a consensus which didn't go the way of the complainant.--Smerus (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by kosboot

I've been on Misplaced Pages for 14 years with over 13K edits and this is the first time I've been summoned to this page. As with the U.S. presidential election, it boils down to a few people who refuse to work toward consensus and feel their views are the correct ones despite the relative quality of the sources. - kosboot (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by François Robere

As Robert McClenon notes this was a very lengthy discussion. I feel that some editors were defensive of Chopin/'s reputation (in a manner that again mirrors how this was received in the "real world"), and at times this contributed to a raising of sourcing standards almost to WP:BLP levels. The resulting text is appreciable for trying to summarize all of he main viewpoints without embarrassing any of the sources (some of whom have theorized on Chopin's sexuality in a manner that's out of vogue these days), but I think it's way too long and obtuse, and does not give due weight to some dissenting sources.

I have no opinion on whether this, or anything else, suits DRN. François Robere (talk) 17:38, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Toccata quarta

The debate was a bit heated and not very structured initially, but the dust has settled and we have achieved some kind of consensus. I'm surprised by the size of the section on Chopin's sexuality that has just been added to the article and intend to make some further points on the talk page, but overall I'm happy with it and think it provides a balanced and well-written summary of the topic. I'm somewhat surprised that this has reached DRN in the first place; the debate was mostly civil and did not reach anything approaching the levels of acrimony that the talk pages of political articles often witness.

I have been asked by Chip-chip-2020 to provide a rationale for my reversal of his edit, so I will just state that the topic is a sensitive one and consensus was being sought on the talk page; hence, it was natural to revert the article to its "default" state, which is consistent with WP:BRD. The Chopin entry is a featured article and Chip-chip-2020's edits were reverted by other editors as well, which further supports the appropriateness of the steps taken. Toccata quarta (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Glissando1234567890

Frédéric Chopin discussion

• Comment by semi-involved Francis Schonken (talk): I think this is less suitable to be taken on at DRN, for there being too many parties (as far as I'm concerned I could have found myself listed among the parties), for issues getting mostly resolved on the article talk page (being told the same thing by many people is not an indication DR would usually lead to something different), and the OP's concerns to a large extent being implemented in mainspace (that a few things seem out of reach for the time being is something everyone, again, *everyone*, involved in the related discussion has to live with and should not fixate on). (note: this is not an opening comment by a volunteer, unless all listed involved users would consider me to be completely uninvolved, and then this would be my very first DRN discussion I'd volunteer on – just didn't know where else to put this comment) --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• This dispute should have gone to RSN and NPOVN where the UNDUE nonsense would be rejected and any appropriate fraction of the current text would be validated. The calculus of WP content is that a compromise between valid and invalid = invalid. That's just logic, and that's where things stand. SPECIFICO talk 16:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page has been extremely lengthy. The editors are reminded to be concise in commenting here, especially before a volunteer starts moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Smerus: has kindly notified me of this discussion. I am not involved, but have commented on sources and tweaked some text. I discovered, before this notification, that Chip-chip-2020 had been adding POV content on de.wikipedia.org, fr.wikipedia.org, pl.wikipedia.org and en.wikipedia.org concerning Tytus Woyciechowski and Frédéric Chopin, with a narrative linking the pair. This attempt of Chip-chip-2020 to establish a "proven" link appears to be WP:RECENTISM plus WP:ACTIVISM. The posting to WP:DRN seems ill-advised. Mathsci (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Please also note that a second (though considerably smaller) discussion on Chopin's sexuality is being conducted at Talk:Waltzes, Op. 70 (Chopin). Toccata quarta (talk) 07:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
• Thank you very much for the contributions so far. I‘d suggest we see what Glissando1234567890 and François Robere have to say to what this discussion originally was supposed to be about. And perhaps a volunteer like Robert McClenon in the meantime could comment on the tone of the previous contributions?--Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - Based on the request by User:Chip-chip-2020, I will review the comments in more detail and comment on them and their tone within 24 hours. I didn't have to review them in detail in order to comment on their length. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

• If you are to do this, please also note the contributions to the discussion by Special:Contributions/2001:8003:5309:BA00:E07E:35C7:5196:38E8 who for some reason was not listed here by User:Chip-chip-2020 - --Smerus (talk) 10:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Chopin)

As long as I have read through the very long statements once, I might as well take this a little further. Please read the rules that are in effect. It should not be necessary for me to restate the rules. Sometimes when I say "Be civil and concise", I emphasize, "Be civil". In this case, I will emphasize, "Be concise". The comments on the talk page are mostly civil, and are repetitious. I was asked to comment on the tone. I have no particular comments on the tone except that one unregistered editor has been uncivil. Other editors have been civil and long-winded, and what we need is to summarize them. It appears to me that Chopin's sexuality is a matter of considerable continued discussion. That is clear to me. We need some formulation to state that his sexuality is a matter of continued discussion. I didn't try to review the reliability of the sources with different viewpoints. It would be ideal to find some mutually agreeable formulation of the differing viewpoints. Otherwise we will develop two or three candidate versions of the section and have an RFC to choose between them.

Each editor should think about what can be said that will present the different viewpoints with due weight.

Now: Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think should be said as a neutral balanced summary of what reliable sources say? Do not just focus on what you think his orientation or sexuality was, but on what you think scholars say his orientation or sexuality was. Do not respond to each other, except in the space for back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me, and to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Chopin)

• I think biographical elements (sending of affectionate letters as related by *biographers* Zamoyski, Walker, etc) should be separated from gender studies (i.e., Kallberg's approach). The biographical elements should be summarized in the biographical narrative (Frédéric Chopin#Life), chronologically (that is, where both Zamoyski and Walker place it in their biographical narratives – not an appended separate subsection); the gender studies aspect is entirely reception/legacy and should be moved down, around where the current Frédéric Chopin#Reception and influence subsection is (where it is a rather tiny aspect, so likely also not a separate (sub)section). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you, Robert McClenon, for the resumé and for opening the debate. Proved biographical content should be in the upper part (Frédéric Chopin#Life). Unproved (such as the alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska) should me removed or mentioned neutrally. Wordings like „secretly engaged“ or „secretly in love“ are not reliable information. And the quote from the Chopin Institute confirms that. 1-2 quotes by Chopin himself taken from his numerous and long letters to Woyciechowski should be introduced though, as suggested by many users in the talk. The letter from 3.10.1829 was pointed out for various reasons, also for the mistranslation issue, which would also be worth to mentioned, since the translations are the basis for non-polish-scholarship. For example Glissando1234567890, Boud, , Francis Schonken suggested introducing Quotes or Fotos or pointed out interesting aspects of the mistranslation-issue. Quotes in correct side-by-side translations would be appropriate, as suggested in the talk.

Apart from the proven facts in the life-section, in the „sexuality“-section, the different points of view of the debate should be shown neutrally. It is important to be careful about the sources, since Walker and Zamoyski are writing things like „mental twist“, or „ could have added the name of Konstancja“ (to a letter to Woyciechowski), or „he secretly dedicated the Adagio to her“ (without mentioning any proof, and also in the newest edition of the score there is no dedication mentioned).

In the sexuality-section (Frédéric Chopin#Chopin's_sexuality), it should also be mentioned, that the radio-features became not just a topic in Poland, but were also reviewed or further investigated in publications like The Times, CNN, Guardian, also in various languages like Hindi or Japanese. Best, --Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 08:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I broadly agree with Francis Schonken's summary above as regards allocating the topic(s). The question is how much detail is appropriate. As regards Chopin's sexuality, it only needs (imo) a sentence noting that the correspondence with Woychiekowski has given rise to discussion about Chopin's sexual orientation at the time of writing them, and then citations of (say) Walker and Zamoyski. Chip-chip-2020 is absolutely unjustified in talking about "unproved...alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska"; this is pure WP:OR as there is plenty of evidence about these two in other people's correspondence of the period. To elaborate on this sort of speculation is just being WP:POINTy. As regards Kallberg's speculaltions, these are indeed pretty esoteric and don't deserve much more than a brief reference in a 'legacy' section. Further, there is no good reason to go overboard about a poorly sourced program last month on Swiss radio which had little or no balance whatever, and whose false controversiality (because the issues it discussed were well known) gained it a transient wider media coverage.

The broader context is that this is an FA article on a major figure in music history, and needs to meet fully standards about using reliable secondary sources if it is to retain that status; it receives 3-4,000 views a day, and it is essential for the reputation of WP that it remains WP:NPOV and avoids WP:RECENTISM. Context and proportion are therefore essential. Chip-chip-2020 above is urging that all sorts of doubtful and marginally relevant detail should be added as, somehow, by right; that is the argument of a partisan. Francis Schonken is suggesting that material should be properly evaluated and appropriately placed; this must be the right approach.--Smerus (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I dispute that any of this section is in good shape or that any of it is NPOV DUE WEIGHT for this article. It's poorly sourced and conflates many diverse issues, none of which is adequately verified or tied to the subject of the article aside from speculation. Noting the recent references to this as a Featured Article, I think the entire section should be removed until such time as it is fit to print. SPECIFICO talk 16:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• I totally agree with Smerus: that the article's FA status requires careful evaluation of any additions. Ultimately, this is a very ambiguous aspect of Chopin's life which probably can never be verified with conclusive evidence. Thus it's not so much about Chopin but rather about 21st century attempts at deriving new information based on new interpretations of his correspondence. Although I feel it should not be in the article, it needs to be there primarily for the purpose of forestalling additional fantasy and speculation such as the sensationalist Swiss radio broadcast. - kosboot (talk) 19:17, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with everything Kosboot has written. As always I will link Chopin and Schubert. About 6 months ago, I helped write the very brief paragraph about Franz Schubert's sexuality in the eponymous article. Questions about sexuality dating from 1989 were put in "Teacher ..." (his adolescence), not legacy or reception. Similar scholarly questions about Chopin's sexuality were raised in the 1990s. In Talk:Frédéric Chopin, several editors have suggested that "images and quotes" might be added to the section on Chopin's sexuality. Most Chopin biographers, aware of his adolescent letters, briefly discuss their significance. Music Prof Kallberg studies 19C and social mores in a liberal framework; his work is accessible in book reviews. Recent media reports that "Chopin is gay" are similar to 1989 headlines about Schubert; but now, when discussing music and sexuality, trained academic researchers often speak of the otherness or otherworldliness of a composer. Mathsci (talk) 21:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I am in sympathy with the immediately above views of SPECIFICO and kosboot. The speculations about Chopin's gender orientation and sexuality are part of a trend of "fake news"; and while it is important to "fact-check" allegations placed before the public, I am not sure that Misplaced Pages should become a repository of misguided speculations. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Robert McClenon: Other than changes to readability, which I've explained here, I think we ought to mention three more claims: first is Brett and Wood's statement on biographers trying to (essentially) heteronormalize Chopin and other composers; second is a response from the Chopin Institute that there's no direct evidence of romantic involvement between him and two of his most famous (alleged) female lovers; and third is Pizá's opinion that "clearly Chopin had homosexual desires", and that he was surely aware of his friend Marquise de Custine's fate as an openly homosexual man in liberal France, who was beaten half to death some years before they made their acquaintance. Pizá implies that Chopin was either gay or bisexual, and that characterising him as feminine and asexual was an attempt at "taming" him as an artist and a public figure, echoing what Brett and Wood wrote. François Robere (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Chopin)

The views of the editors taking part in this DRN appear to have three different viewpoints as to what to say about Chopin's sexuality. The filing editor wishes to make some statements about Chopin's sexuality (basically that he was bisexual) based on modern publications. Two editors have stated that these statements need to be properly evaluated and appropriately placed. Four editors have expressed the opinion that the challenged statements are undersourced or non-neutral and are not encyclopedic, and should be removed.

If the editors want to work toward compromise, which would involve evaluating the material in question, we can proceed toward compromise. However, it seems that a Request for Comments is in order. I am asking the editor who wants to add material to provide the paragraph or paragraphs to be added, specifying where to add them. The editors who don't want anything added do not need to provide any input to the RFC. They can provide their arguments against the addition when the RFC is published. The two editors who are taking a middle position should state what they want as a middle option in the RFC.

If there are remaining questions, please ask them now, because otherwise I would like to get the RFC started before the December solstice. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

• Supposing I am a "middle man" per the moderator's classification (correct?), I am, I think, invited to state a middle position. Keeping it brief, I think a middle position would be that sources which are classified as "generally reliable" at WP:RSP would be accepted so, without having to go through the movements at WP:RSN. These include a New York Times article about Walker's Chopin biography, and CNN, The Independent and The Guardian articles about the SRF radio broadcast. Not saying we need large wads of text in Misplaced Pages's Chopin biography based on these sources, but a decent mentioning of the key topic (Chopin's sexuality) from these reliable sources should be included in the biographical section of the Chopin article. The "gender" material (i.e. Kallberg), and other reception-related material, should get no more than brief mentioning in the "Reception"-related sections of the Chopin article (not disturbing the DUE/UNDUE balance of the reception narrative). Other than that, I can confirm that I agree with the moderator's proposal that this is rather suitable for a RFC procedure than a DRN page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• In case it will be helpful in preparing proposed text, I would like to state that the only source that appears to be RS as a somewhat qualified expert opinion is the Kallberg. It's pretty clear that any proposal based on newspaper accounts of radio accounts is going to be rejected, so OP might consider streamlining any proposal. SPECIFICO talk 17:40, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• I agree with Francis regarding sourcing; I think WP:DUE adequately covers this situation, and see no need to withhold reliable mass media sources. I also agree that the Kallberg-on-music paragraph can be trimmed and moved to #Reception. I would like to see added a brief statement from Brett and Woods, another statement from Pizá, and part of the comment from the Chopin institute to the SRF piece. François Robere (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Reflist

References

1. https://www.srf.ch/kultur/musik/spaetes-outing-chopin-war-schwul-und-niemand-sollte-davon-erfahren?wt_mc_o=srf.share.app.srf-app.unknown
2. https://books.google.ch/books?id=6ThIDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT110&dq=alan+walker+fankly+erotic&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3vovXx8_tAhUBqaQKHTSlD7MQ6AEwAHoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=alan%20walker%20fankly%20erotic&f=false
3. Zamoyski (2010), pp. 26–29.
4. https://www.edition-peters.de/product/konzert-fur-klavier-und-orchester-nr-2-f-moll-op-21/ep71919
5. https://www.srf.ch/kultur/musik/presseschau-zur-srf-recherche-der-schwule-chopin-geht-um-die-welt?wt_mc_o=srf.share.app.srf-app.sms

Back-and-forth discussion

.

MutualArt.com

First- there has been no discussion on the talk page, which alone makes this DRN premature. 2ndly- I don't think the DRN is the correct place to address this concern. Now, I will go on the talk page as a courtesy and remind the user of the policies regarding NPOV and the purpose of talk pages, but if you have concerns about behavior of a user, in the future please try the WP:ANI or try actually discussing the matter first, keeping in mind WP is not a place to market or try to recover service. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Motörhead

This has not been discussed on the article talk page where many editors can contribute and discuss. Please try to discuss this on the article talk page, and if that does not work after a good faith effort, you may re-open a case on the DRN. Note: While it is considered bad manners to remove a section from an article talk page, users have control of their own talk pages. This is part of why we ask you discuss issues on the talk page attached to the relevant article- so that it isn't just deleted when someone is done with the discussion. Thank you. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Steverci (talk · contribs)
• CuriousGolden (talk · contribs)
• Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
• Solavirum (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have proposed making a number of changes to the belligerents list in the article's infobox, and backed them all up with many sources. Armenia, like Turkey, did not officially declare war despite both nations being heavily involved. For example, no fighting took place in Armenia's borders, even when enemy forces reached them. Both Armenia and Turkey should be listed under a "Supported by:" or being listed as full belligerents. Personally, I support the former because it better reflects how no fighting could take place in their borders due to a lack of declaration of war. However, Erdogan's support has been stated by many sources to have been vital, so he should also be listed in the leaders. Russia should also be removed as a belligerent completely because the Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh. And "Armenian diaspora volunteers" should be removed from the infobox, because these are individual cases and not the result of organization's official backing, unlike the Syrian mercenaries (which were recruited and deployed by Turkey). Thus, it is giving them too much undue weight.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Infobox_belligerents_changes

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I would like for users that have no personal bias in the subject to review the arguments and evidence put forward, and help discuss what changes should be made.

Summary of dispute by CuriousGolden

Summary of dispute by Grandmaster

Edits proposed by Steverci are absolutely unacceptable, as I tried to explain to him. First of, Armenia is a party to conflict, it is directly involved in it, and moreover, it is legally recognized as a belligerent. 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement was signed between Azerbaijan and Armenia, with Russia as a mediator. If Armenia is not directly involved in the conflict, as a belligerent, how could it sign the ceasefire agreement? Armenia agrees to stop fire, and according to the text, "The Republic of Armenia shall return the Kalbajar District to the Republic of Azerbaijan by November 15, 2020, and the Lachin District by December 1, 2020". If Armenia is not involved directly, how could it occupy districts of Azerbaijan, and agree to withdraw from them? It defies common logic.

In addition, most of Armenians fighting in Karabakh were soldiers and officers drafted from Armenia. Just yesterday dozens of Armenian soldiers were taken prisoner by Azerbaijani army, it turns out they were all from Shirak Province in Armenia, and their relatives are protesting now. If Armenia is not involved, how did those soldiers from Shirak get to Nagorno-Karabakh?

As for role of Turkey, there's no reliable source to support direct involvement of Turkey in the conflict as a belligerent. Turkey provided support to Azerbaijan by training personnel and providing arms, and also expressed political and diplomatic support. But Turkish army was not involved in the hostilities. Most of mainstream sources do not support this claim, and marginal sources are not sufficient to support it. And Russia is not listed as a belligerent.

"Armenian diaspora volunteers" were involved in the fighting, and their presence is well documented and is confirmed by the Armenian side as well. I see no reason why infobox should not reflect this verifiable fact. Grandmaster 16:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Solavirum

Every single WP:RS mentions Armenia as a belligerent in the war. Even Armenia has confirmed it on several occasions. They literally were the ones to sign the ceasefire agreement on their and Artsakh's behalf. Thousands of soldiers from Armenia were killed, and they were buried in Armenia Even Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights had reported that a huge chunk of the ethnic Armenian soldiers in Nagorno-Karabakh were from Armenia.

Removing Russia is a joke. Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh, so what? This isn't the first time we've seen a giant power denying that it finances a proxy in a war. Iran might've denied the reports but has yet to prove its claims. Many ethnic Azerbaijanis in Iran also protested the country serving as a gateway for Russian arms. If we remove Russia, we'd have to remove the Syrians too. As there's also no direct evidence on their involvement, and that they've officially denied taking part in the war.

Claiming that Turkey took part in the war directly, as a belligerent, is WP:OR and the user's own interpretation. Only the Armenian government and Armenia-funded Russian partisan sources like WarGonzo claims such a thing. There's not a single WP:RS that states Turkish forces were fighting in Karabakh.

Removing the Armenian volunteers is, again, a false narrative. There are reports that ethnic Armenians from Lebanon, US, Syria, and other places, numbering in hundreds, and possibly thousands had taken part in the war. Thousands of individual cases (as Sterverci put it) are well enough to show that non-Armenian nationals took part in the war. In the meanwhile, these reports also give organized involvement, like ex-ASALA members and the Nubar Ozanyan Brigade of the SDF.

Sterverci seems like he wants to show the as Artsakh vs. Azerbaijan, Turkey, Syria, while it isn't the case at all. He can head to Armenian Misplaced Pages for such things, as English Misplaced Pages isn't preferred for a narrative pushing.

References

1. https://jamestown.org/program/the-south-caucasus-new-realities-after-the-armenia-azerbaijan-war-part-one/
2. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/world/europe/nagorno-karabakh-armenia-azerbaijan.html
3. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54324772
4. https://www.vox.com/2020/12/3/22150110/armenia-azerbaijan-war-russia-nagorno-karabakh-turkey
5. https://archive.is/0O9RY
6. https://archive.is/CSCpq
7. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/world/europe/nagorno-karabakh-putin-armenia-azerbaijan.html
8. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54882564
9. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/09/europe/nagorno-karabakh-shusha-armenia-azerbaijan-russia-intl/index.html
10. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/azerbaijan-armenia-conflict-1.5795572
11. https://www.france24.com/en/20201010-armenia-and-azerbaijan-trade-accusations-over-nagorno-karabakh-ceasefire
12. https://eurasianet.org/photo-essay-armenia-rallies
13. https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&id=001-155353&filename=001-155353.pdf
14. https://caspiannews.com/news-detail/iran-denies-facilitating-transfer-of-russian-arms-to-armenia-2020-9-7-40/
15. https://www.intellinews.com/iran-denies-allowing-passage-of-weapons-into-armenia-after-video-emerges-on-social-media-192945/
16. https://caspiannews.com/news-detail/protestors-in-northern-iran-demand-closure-of-border-with-armenia-over-arms-transfer-to-yerevan-2020-10-3-0/
17. https://www.rferl.org/a/protests-erupt-in-iran-backing-azerbaijan-in-nagorno-karabakh-conflict/30870217.html
18. https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/2543546/iran-police-disperse-pro-azerbaijan-demonstrations
19. https://www.arabnews.com/node/1747861
20. https://www.kp.ru/daily/217190.5/4297301/
21. https://archive.is/ki0sC
22. https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/10/03/former-non-commissioned-officer-im-going-to-artsakh-with-500-800-greeks-to-crush-the-turks/

--► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:40, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war discussion

2020 Ganja missile attacks

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2020 Ganja missile attacks (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Steverci (talk · contribs)
• CuriousGolden (talk · contribs)
• Solavirum (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This subject event took place after the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert. I had added this fact to the article, along with several citations supporting it. CuriousGolden reverted the change, asking for a source that "links these two events". I went on the talk page and provided just, that, giving yet another source from as official Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. However, CuriousGolden now appears to be trying to move the goalposts, asking for a source that explicitly links the article to "retaliation to attacks on Stepanakert", even though my edit had never stated that. Given that the Foreign Affairs Minister referred to Stepanakert when asked about Ganja, this means that it is important to tell the reader that Stepanakert happened first. The article currently gives the impression that the missile attacks were unprovoked. The talk page discussion had devolved to an argument about interpretation of sources. Although I had shown the sources I provided to clear and reliable, I decided to seek a dispute resolution to prevent edit warring.

I would also like to add I wanted to add the Stepanakert attacks to the Bombardment of Tartar article as well, which happened only one day before Stepanakert, yet Stepanakert isn't mentioned on the article at all. The talk page discussion could only take place in one place, but it was about both articles.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:2020_Ganja_missile_attacks#2020_bombardment_of_Stepanakert

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please take a look at the revision changes and talk page discussion, and help discuss if you think the Stepanakert bombardment should be mentioned as having taken place previously or not.

Summary of dispute by CuriousGolden

Steverci tries to draw connections between 2 unrelated events without providing any proper source and puts it in lead. And when asked to provide a WP:RS that connects these 2 events, they accuse me of WP:JDLI and moving the goalposts even though I asked for the same thing the entire discussion, even when I first reverted their addition. It's not really a dispute, I asked them to provide a WP:RS to support their WP:OR and they failed.

Summary of dispute by Solavirum

He isn't telling the full story here. Steverci tried to relate those things, and tried to make it look like a "revenge attack". The MoFA source he refers to doesn't even state such a thing. There's not enough, actually, not a single WP:RS that states that, and this is just his own assumption. I call this particular case WP:OR and WP:NOTAFORUM, but overall, the user has worrying activity. This includes his rhetoric, with remarks like it hurts the victim narrative the article tries to sell. He also wanted to remove Armenia as a belligerent in the article about the war. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 07:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

2020 Ganja missile attacks discussion

Volunteer Statement

I'm happy to mediate this, however Steverci If this is the only source you have- your current changes constitute WP:OR You cannot add the word revenge if its not stated by a source clearly. However, I'm happy to mediate a discussion to find a more appropriate way to include a link between the two attacks if you would like. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I never used the word "revenge" to describe the attacks, not even on the talk page. My edits stated "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles by Azerbaijan against civilian areas in Stepanakert" and "On 27 September 2020, Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against civilian areas in the bombardment of Stepanakert." Like I said, there has been some attempted goalpost shifting. Here is my edit on the article, which also includes 3 more sources. --Steverci (talk) 17:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

All of the sources you provided are about the bombing of Stepanakert, none of them draws connections between Ganja and Stepanakert bombings, as you implied, which is what this whole "dispute" is about. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

There are three sources (from Eurasianet.org, BBC, and Mediamax) used for the warning by Arayik Harutyunyan. His quote from the first article: "The Azerbaijani terrorist army is targeting civilians in Stepanakert, using Polonez and Smerch MLRS,” said Arayik Harutyunyan, the de facto leader of Karabakh, on October 4. “From now on military objects in large cities of Azerbaijan are the target of the Defense Army of Artsakh . Calling on Azerbaijani population to leave these cities to avoid inevitable loss.". So whoever wrote this left out the reason for the warning (almost making it appear as a threat) and left out that Azerbaijan was the first to target civilians. I'm sure it was unintentional though. --Steverci (talk) 23:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Kind of a useless warning when a separatist leader warns another nation in a language they don't understand, which was pointed out by Human Rights Watch. Again, those 3 sources all are about the separatist leader's "warning", none of them draws connections between the 2 attacks. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Unless you find solid sources that directly states that this was in retaliation, or that these are related to each other, these are not going to added. This, by defition, is WP:OR. If none of the WP:RS mentions Stepanakert/Khankendi alongside Ganja or Tartar, we don't add it. If we followed your logic, we'd have to write that every single individual war crime reportedly committed by the Azerbaijani servicemen would pass under as a revenge for Khojaly. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:11, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement 2

I'm sorry, if you don't have a source that specifically states a link- This is WP:OR. Also- I would like to remind those involved that back and forth discussion should be limited. Please engage with the volunteer, not each other. Now, Steverci do you have a source that says- specifically "These attacks are related"? If not, I'm afraid there is nothing to discuss. It doesn't matter if its obvious, or if they forgot to include something- it has to specifically be stated that Incident A is linked to, caused by, or revenge for, Incident B.Nightenbelle (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

As I cited above and on the talk page,

• "The Azerbaijani terrorist army is targeting civilians in Stepanakert, using Polonez and Smerch MLRS. From now on military objects in large cities of Azerbaijan are the target of the Defense Army of Artsakh" - Harutyunyan
• Meanwhile, Nagorno-Karabakh's authorities said that they had destroyed Ganja's military airport. They said they had acted after Stepanakert was hit by missiles and alleged the Ganja facility had been used by Azerbaijani forces to launch attacks on civilian areas - BBC.
• Harutyunyan has underlined that Azerbaijan was the first to violate the international law by targeting civilian population. - Mediamax
• Interview where BBC journalist asks why Ganja was targetted, and Foreign Minister Mnatsakanyan replies with the shelling and bombing of Stepanakert as well as other civilian locations --Steverci (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Timeline of BBC One

Premature. The primary means of working out a dispute such as this is to discuss it on the article talk page. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Misplaced Pages, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here, though in this particular case asking for page protection may be necessary first. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

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