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So are those Afrocentric scholars who claim African discovery of America distinguished notably as "radical" ? And which branch of Afrocentrism believes in 'the superiority of one culture over another' ? El_C 11:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I know of no widely published (by a reputable publishing house) black historian who makes such claims of black superiority. If there are such people, kindly enlighten me with proof. deeceevoice 14:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't know either, which is why I asked: because the article states this, and I reworded it, but we need to establish whether it is encyclopedic. Also, see my questions above, some of which remain outstanding. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

npov tag

that's not really the definition of Afrocentrism. Almost every link I've read doesnt equate Eurocentrism with Afrocentrism. More generally Afrocentrism is myth taught as history, not a changing approach on Africa's "contribution to world history." This article is totally POV and factually incorrect. Somebody needs to look after it. Wareware 01:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

When that somebody proves to be you, I will personally reinstate the tag. But we need more substantive evidence than the anectodal lmost every link I've read and the non-comittal omebody needs to look after it. El_C 01:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

here, http://skepdic.com/afrocent.html first site that comes up from google search. Good enough for you? Wareware 02:01, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) Wareware 02:01, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, it isn't, not for me. I have already read it at any rate. Again, we need more substantive evidence (I suggest scholarly sources) other than the top link on google. Have you read any of the scholarly works cited in the references or external link section? They may prove of aid to you in desmontrating the factual verifiability of your position. Otherwise, it strikes me as a rather sophomoric attempt. A little more effort is warranted on your part. El_C 02:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: To be clear, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I actually don't know that much on this topic. I may be an African historian, but Afrocentrism and its respective debats are not my field and I have very little familiarity with it as a construct and worldview. But, really, I expect you to approach this issue in a social-scientific way. You're a university student, so these sort of methodological expectations should not be surprising to you. As it stands, your side of the argument (which might be correct, I don't know), suffers because you are taking this article to task in a very superficial way, evidence-wise. El_C 02:28, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I just reread this talk page and a small correction to my comment above is due. When I said I am an African historian, I meant an historian who largely (but not only) specializes in studying African history (20th Century, Central and Southern Africa to be exact). It did not mean that I, myself, am of an African descent (nor does it mean that I am of a non-African descent). It was a grammatical error rather than a highly uncharactaristic revelation (those editors that know me, could attest as to how strictly I keep all my personal details: sex, age, ethnicity, etc., confidential). So, who aren't I remains topical! El_C 08:15, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I have reread the article and the source you provided (which, actually, I mistook for a different one – sorry about that) and I retract my comments. There are serious NPOV issue which I am in the midst of attending to. El_C 03:16, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NPOV changes

Okay, I have reviewed and made changes to the article to reflect the NPOV issues alluded to by Wareware. And this is perhaps a good a time as any for me to eat my own words by attempting to follow my own advice: reading more closely. Yikes. Wareware, if the you find the changes I made insufficient, please reinstate the tag and I will give it another shot. Thanks, and sorry. El_C 03:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

are the Moors and Tamils in India considered "black" in the ethnic sense, as someone similar to sub-saharan Africa? I believe Moors are from North Africa more closely associated with the Arab world. Same thing with Tamils, aren't they Dravidians from India? What do they have to do with afrocentrism? Wareware 07:52, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Good questions, I'm not really sure how they are classified in that sense (or, more specifically, what the classification means exactly). I would like to know the answer to these questions, too. El_C 08:15, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

more POV from Afrocentrism vs. Eurocentrism

should we include eurocentrism vs afrocentrism in the first section? I think El C's version is pretty npov and does not go into semantics and wordplay, which is very clean and helpful. In addition, quoting Ivan van Sertima seems to be pushing the Afrocentrist POV even more. If I remember correctly, this is the guy who wrote a book on the purported African visits of the Americas, way before the Vikings and Columbus. Is mentioning this guy in this section NPOV at all? I think it's okay to say that Afrocentrism is 1). worldview focusing on Africa and/or 2). pseudo-history focusing on Africa. No need to get into arguing about semantics, subjectivity objectivity schlobjectivity and more POVs. Wareware 10:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We can mention him, of course, but we'll need to qualify how his theories are being percieved by his peers. El_C 10:52, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That section is problematic, though. We should iron it here in talk. I am restoring my version, for now. El_C 10:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Before we do that, perhaps it would be best to go over some of the basics. I am feeling somewhat disoriented with this topic due to lack of familiarity with it. I posed a few questions in the first section of this talk page. Any help in answering these will be appreciated. El_C 11:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

European appropriation of black culture

Passage reads:

An obvious example of European appropriation of black African culture is the common classification of obelisks, porticoes and columns as "Greek" architecture when, they are clearly Egyptian in origin. In fact, fluted columns are key architectural elements of the Step Pyramid at Sakkara, built approximately 2,400 years before the Greek conquest of Egypt.

To my knowledge no-one has ever said that obelisks are Greek. They are Egyptian. No one claims that 'columns' are Greek either. But they aren't Egyptian either. They can be found all over the world, as can porticos. The classical orders of columns are Greek (Doric, Ionic, Corinthian) in origin, as is the classical form of the portico. Paul B 05:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I deleted it, but it dosen't mean it can't be included in the historical Afrocentrism section (but it is out of place in the criticism one). But I did not reinsert it there, and would like to establish consensus on how professional scholars in the field view the above. Is it accepted as an approriation of African culture? That is has African origins? I have no idea. I would like to see some references that would place the premise into 'conventional' context. I'm reinserting this. Maybe I'll tweak it a little. (I'll see once I decide where to put it.) Anyone who's studied architecture or taken a basic world history course in the West has "learned" that columns, porticos, etc., are elements of "classical Greek architecture." You want a photo of the temple? http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/dsteppyramid1.htm The temple is located in Memphis, of the old (and indisputably black African) empire. These are the earliest examples of columns in architecture. Example of other columns -- palmiform, lotus, and so-called "Corinthian" (the name given to the style is itself evidence of appropriation) columns are at Luxor in the Ramesseum, in Nubia. With regard to the dates, if memory serves Alexander the Great conquered Egypt aroud 300 BCE. Sakkarah was built beginning around 2400 BCE. deeceevoice 12:39, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Corinthian" (the name given to the style is itself evidence of appropriation)" What are you on about? Corinth is a town in Greece. This column style dis not originate in Egypt. Paul B 05:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well I haven't studied architecture nor have I ever taken a "world history course in the West," none are key to my field as a 20th Century historian anyway. But, all of that is an aside to my question about the prevailing thoughts in the critical scholarship as to whether it is widely thought to constitute such an appropriation (again, I don't know), but if it is proven to be the case, I still challenge that this should go in the historical Afrocentric section rather than the criticism one. El_C 14:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, okay. For those in denial or otherwise challenged:

EGYPT THE BIRTHPLACE OF GREEK DECORATIVE ART.

A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. I have sometimes been asked, for instance, how it happens that I–erewhile a novelist, and therefore a professed student of men and manners as they are–can take so lively an interest in the men and manners of five or six thousand years ago. But it is precisely because these men of five or six thousand years ago had manners, a written language, a literature, a school of art, and a settled government that we find them so interesting. Ourselves the creatures of a day, we delight in studies which help us to realize that we stand between the eternity of the past and the eternity of the future. Hence the charm of those sciences which unfold to us, page by page, the unwritten records of the world we live in. Hence the eagerness with which we listen to the Story of Creation as told by the geologist and the paleontologist.

From "Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art." by Amelia Ann Blanford Edwards (1831-1892). Publication: Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers. by Amelia Edwards. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1891. (First edition.) pp. 158-192. http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/edwards/pharaohs/pharaohs-5.html

And from a college (Aquinas College somewhere in Michigan) course overview online on the globalization of world culture, written by a Dan Brooks, Ph.D. and head of the college's Humanities Program this bit of very, very (nowadays) well known (but, apparently not well known enough!) information:

While the art and architecture of Greece and Rome are often linked because of the deliberate imitation of Greek techniques in the Roman world, the connection of the roots of this tradition to Egypt has been established historically, but is not often emphasized. As we saw in Chapter Four, the inspiration for Greek monumental sculpture and architecture came as a direct result of Greeks living in Egypt (when Greek mercenaries were allowed to settle in the Nile Delta in the seventh century BCE)1. This kind of foreign settlement in Egypt was rarely allowed throughout much of its ancient history, and the Greeks' exposure to Egyptian culture was a revelation that they brought back with them to Greece.

Brooks now can say it's "not often emphasized," but ten, 20, 30 years ago, it was downright freakin' buried -- as evidenced by the rampant ignorance on the subject in many quarters, still, today. deeceevoice 17:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another web entry:

Architectural Styles of Classical Columns The column is a fundamental architectural element and one of the defining characteristics of Classical architecture.

The Greeks borrowed the column from the Egyptians and synthesized it into an architectural style that was characteristically their own. The first fluted columns date back to Egypt's Middle Kingdom (2040 - 1640 BC). The principle architectural ornamentation used by the Greeks was also derived from Eastern predecessors.

http://www.bobvila.com/ArticleLibrary/Location/Entryway/ColumnStyles.html deeceevoice 18:05, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/columns.htm

I've searched but cannot find photographs of columns w/triangulated capitals that are clearly direct precursors of the Corinthian-style column, with acanthus-like leaves, sometimes lotus-form, sometimes palmiform. But they exist. Clearly, columns as a feature of Greek and Roman architecture were taken directly from ancient, black Egyptian architecture. Not even THAT has been disputed by the likes of Lefkowitz who does at least claim that Egyptian art and architecture heavily influenced Greco-Roman culture. (Have you read her?) I have. deeceevoice 18:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Before I adress you comments I would like to make certain thing perfectly clear. You must —stop— from continuing to make exclalmations such as For those in denial or otherwise challenged and many others. I have already asked you to cease from these, and it is not fair that I would have to reiterate that a second time (!) It is tautological and mildly insulting. No, I don't little about any of these things – this is the point though, you should expect the reader to be unfamilliar with it, too (that's the point of an encyclopedia). I have not read Lefkowitz (my accoutn of her is based on book reviews, etc. from reputable sources), I am not familliar with any of the scholars cited above, but it is important that we understand how their theories are generally viewed by academia as a whole, again, regadless what we oursleves think of academia. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reoccuring issue

I wish to recapsulate much of what I said above eversince I've been made aware of some of the problematic components this article exhibits. One issue that I find reoccures and needs to be better addressed systemically, is that the reader is often faced with claims made by Afrocentric scholars, but these are not consistently enough offset by what a consensus of (if such exists, if not we qualify that) and how critical scholars respond to these. We already established that Afrocentric theories are, in that sense, 'disputed,' so we do need to know how each specific claim —not each-and-every one necessarily, but as a general rule— is countered (or if a claim isn't countered, we qualify it as such; again, as a rule, we can allow for exceptions), otherwise our claim for NPOV becomes tenuous. I am confident that by following these steps we can arrive at an article that is accepted by all parties as NPOV. Thanks. El_C 11:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Afrocentrism vs. Eurocentrism

The argument against presenting both sides, both views of Afrocentrism is simply bull. They are competing concepts, and each deserves to be heard. I insist on balance in this piece! The pro and con is reinstated. deeceevoice 11:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please refrain from heated exclamations that go towards hindering a collegial editorial collaboration. Are you maintaining that the manner in which the critical scholarship regards historical Afrocentrism is Eurocentrism? Because I don't think that can be passed for encyclopedic. We need to explain how Afrocentrics outline their theories, yes, but this needs to be placed within the context of how the critical scholarship views historical Afrocentrism. We need to have the current social-scientific consensus as a basis, regardless of whether we agree. We cannot, therefore, indirectly obfuscate the fact that Afrocentrism has –vastly– more critics than adherents. The article needs to reflect that more than simply in passing (as was the case prior to today's edits). El_C 12:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In some regards, yes. Funny. I don't recall anyone calling (Scandinavian) Thor Hyerdahl "afrocentric" when in the 1970s (after Kon Tiki) he sailed the Ra I and Ra II from Egypt to the New World to and wrote about it. I don't recall anyone calling (white) New Zealand archaeologist, linguist and Harvard historian Barry Fell "afrocentric" when he published Saga America in 1979. Or Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski of the University of Warsaw "afrocentrist" when his 1972 study of Olmec skeletal remains revealed distinctly Africanoid characteristics. (Wanna read it yourself? http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/content.html ; wanna see an Olmec head? http://www.mesoweb.com/features/jpl/01.html )

Oh, my bad! "Afrocentric" -- that title applies only to black folks with the effrontery to challenge white/Eurocentric scholarship, doesn't it?!! Ivan van Sertima's just some delusional half-wit -- never mind his many honors and his recognition by UNESCO (mentioned in the article and edited out simply because Wareware wrote of his claims that Africans actually could have sailed to the New World before Columbus). You see, only crazed, white-race-hating, revisionist black folks trying to compensate, to find a "therapeutic" remedy for feelings of inherent inferiority can be afrocentric. No credible white historian could possibly believe such claptrap! Could they? Oh, of course not! (Downright pathetic.) deeceevoice 15:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That dosen't aswer the question, but it does add emotional intensity that is both uneccessary and a hindrence towards an NPOV solution. I, myself, don't know about who these scholars cited above are (again, nor will the average reader), or their respective skin shades. I am only concerned at this point with how the critical scholarship tends to view the claims made by Afrocentric scholars, the specific arguments. Again, you must (must) aim at more emotionally detached explanations. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Further, with regard to "radical Afrocentrism"

I intend to remove the section of "radical Afrocentrism" entirely. I think passing reference can be made to it in the pro and con section. Afrocentrist historical theory has credibility -- which is why it has been debated and continues to be debated. It cannot be merely debunked outright. Forty years ago, conventional wisdom had it that the ancient Egyptians were white. When I raised the issue of the blackness of ancient Egyptians with my fourth-grade teacher in the late 1950's I was told I was incorrect. Two years later, the Aswan Dam was built and much of Nubia flooded. But the Temple of Thebes was sawed into pieces, dismantled and then reassembled. I recall in sixth-grade social studies class seeing full-color spreads in "Jr. Scholastic" of huge stone renderings of clearly black African pharaohs seated before the temple. I had been vindicated. (I never brought up the matter with my fourth-grade teacher, who was still at the school -- but he must have been mortified.) :-p

Is "radical Afrocentrism" encyclopedically notable as such though, remaisn the outstanding question. Again, I don't know about any of these things, it certainly is prudent to outline how views have changed on that front, but also, the current consensus within the critical scholarship needs to remain as a basis. I have no strong opinion on this one way or the other. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Now it is common for history projects developed by the mainstream media, such as The History Channel and Discovery to readily acknowledge the black Africanness of ancient dynastic Egypt. Forensic reconstruction of royal Egyptian mummies has borne out the black African ethnicity of ancient dynastic Egypt again and again. The wigs, architectural and monumental artifacts bear this out. So, things change. But not quickly enough. People are still abysmally ignorant, still straitjacketed into the old lies and half-truths. In the face of this continued ignorance it is far too easy for individuals to find extreme proponents of one idea or another and then use them as strawmen to paint the entire Afrocentric paradigm as somehow crackpot. Every discipline has its extremists, its eccentrics, even its fools. But this is what Dr. Molefi Asante of Temple University has to say about scholarly Afrocentrist thought (from his scathing review of Lefkowitz's Not Out of Africa):

Professor Lefkowitz has three main axes to grind in her book. The first is that a student told her that she believed Socrates was black. The second is that the Greek gods came from Africa which she attributes to Martin Bernal, the author of Black Athena, and to Cheikh Anta Diop, the author of The African Origin of Civilization. The third is that freemasonry is the source of George James' claim in his book Stolen Legacy that the Greeks got many of their major ideas from the Egyptians

The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument....

Professor Lefkowitz makes a statement on page 1 of her book that "In American universities today not everyone knows what extreme Afrocentists are doing in their classrooms. Or even if they do know, they choose not to ask questions." We are off to a bad start. Who are these extreme Afrocentrists? She does not provide us with one example of something that an extreme Afrocentrist is teaching in a classroom. Not one. But already the reader is inclined to believe that something exists where nothing exists. No matter how passionate, assertion is not evidence. What Afrocentrists do teach is that you cannot begin the discussion of world history with the Greeks. Creating clouds of suspicion about scholarly colleagues in order to support a racial mythology developed over the past centuries to accompany European enslavement of Africans, imperialism, and exploitation will not dissipate the fact of Greece's debt to Africa.

Near the end of his essay, Asante states very clearly (not block indented; it's too much trouble, but word for word): ---

"On these facts we stand:

• Ancient Egyptians were black people.
• Egyptian civilization precedes Greece by several thousand years
• The pyramids are completed (2500 BC) long before Homer appears (800 BC)
• Philosophy originates in Africa and the first Greek philosophers (Thales, Isocrates) studied in Egypt
• A discussion of the wise, wisdom, (sb) appears on tomb of Antef in 2052 BC
• Thales of Miletus is not a philosopher until 600 BC

"Among Greek historians and others who wrote about what the Greeks learned from Egypt are Homer, Herodotus, Iamblicus, Aetius, Diodorous Siculus, Diogenes Laertius, Plutarch, and Plato. Who were some of the Greek students of Africans, according to the ancient records? They were Plato, Solon, Lycurgus, Democritus, Anaxamander, Anaxagoras, Herodotus, Homer, Thales, Pythagoras, Eudoxus, and Isocrates and many others. Some of these students even wrote of their studies in Egypt as well."

Those wishing to read the entire essay may do so by clicking the link provided in the article. deeceevoice 18:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't object to the removal of the "radical Afrocentrism" section. I don't think it belongs there. Perhaps toward the end we need a "criticisms of Afrocentrism" section, which can include brief mention of Afrocentric rebuttals. However, I would please like be given a link to something indicating that it is a generally accepted fact among scholars in the field that ancient Egyptians were black. I hope they were! That'd be neat to know! But I'd like to see it, please. Babajobu

Well again, we're back to the question as to its encyclopedic notability. I find the above excerpts from the essay quite interesting, and in general, I really did not know much about these debates before I encountered this article (I still don't know much, but I know more than I did before). But what is again crucial for the NPOV nature of the article is how the majority of critical scholars respond to Asante's points, what sort of arguments do they use to 'debunk' these. Whether these arguments (or coutner-arguments) make sense is not an issue and is for the reader to decide. What is key is that we outline the respective views fairly, and at the same time, representatively. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Big Changes

I changed the organization of the article, including removing "radical Afrocentrism" altogether and trying to incorporate that into criticism/rebuttal sections toward the end of the article. I also added a section on specific areas of disagreement in the historical record between Afrocentrists and traditional historians. I'm sure you all will find things that need to be corrected or reverted, but I think most of what I did is sound.

I also tried to get rid of what seemed to be to a "hot" tone in much of the article, some of it needlessly denigrating Afrocentrists and some of it needlessly denigrating those scholars who have disagreed with Afrocentric scholarship. No matter how hot-under-the-collar some participants in the historical debate may get, and no matter what sinister motives they may attribute to those with whom they disagree, we really should just ignore the overwrought emotions that some of the participants may have and concentrate on figuring out what the scholarly consensus is. Babajobu 20:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, based on a very cursory glance, your revisions do not appear to sufficiently highlight how the ideas and claims made by Afrocentric shcolars are generally viewed in the critical scholarship. Without establishing this, the article cannot be NPOV. Perhaps I should forward this dispute to other channels: I really don't know enough about it and I think we can benefit from the paricipation of additonal editors who possess some familiarity with the subject. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's fine...I'd be interested in getting an assessment on the scholarly consensus here. I certainly am not the one to offer it. However, my understanding is that the predominance of Afrocentric scholarship is not devoted to advancing crackpot claims of the cognitive advantages of people possessing more Melanin, or whatever. I think that's only the fringe of Afrocentric scholarship. I think it would be a shame to have a Misplaced Pages article on "Afrocentrism" that attacked a strawman caricature of that term. Efforts to fill lacunae in the historical record by restoring the African component of human history to a more approporiate level...I think that also is classified as "Afrocentrism." Because we are talking about a historical profession that for centuries almost exclusively comprised white men. The fact that they produced work that disproportionately emphasized the contributions of white men like themselves doesn't mean they were bad people, it means they were human and typical of historians in most parts of the world. Do you think the historians of Ming China put Africans or Europeans at the heart of their histories? Of course not. They put Chinese men there. But it's a new world now, and we need to produce a universal human history, and I think Afrocentric historical work is part of that. Anyway, if we can get more informed opinion, I'm all for it. Babajobu 22:26, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am not making –nor have I ever made– any moral value judgmants here. Sure, everyone is for an objective account of (world and otherwise) history. I submitted a content dispute RfC which reads: Need help in establishing how the critical scholarship tends to view claims made by Afrocentric scholars. Few participants are familliar with this topic, except for one editor who is markedly on the Afrocentric side. I believe it is a fair enough assessment that all parties can agree to. Again, I have no strong opinion either way, I am simply unfamilliar with the subject, but it should be evident, I think, that this issue especially is key one, and that it remains outstanding. El_C 22:36, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with you. The RfC's a good idea. I wasn't trying to say that you had done anything wrong, I was just giving my own rationale for the edits I made. Babajobu 22:42, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good, obviously I have a problem with the underrepresentation of Africa in academia – it is a very real (and acute) problem of which I am all too aware (though in other, and I argue more pressing ways, than ancient history), first hand. I would not have authored the Great empires and their impact section otherwise (which is largely outside of my expertise, too, though not so much as ancient history). But, again, I cannot make out how social-scientific consensus regards Afrocentric ancient historical claims. We could certainly use all the help we can get on this front. El_C 23:46, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)