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Warsaw concentration camp

Initiated by Jehochman at 13:35, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Jehochman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
• Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification Piotrus
• diff of notification Volunteer Marek

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• COIN discussion ending without result 4 December 2021
• Original RFC at Talk:Warsaw concentration camp
• RFC at Talk:Reliability of Misplaced Pages
• An older discussion at WT:List of hoaxes on Misplaced Pages

Statement by Jehochman

Issue: If a newspaper publishes an article critical of an editor's editing, can the editor remove that newspaper article, and content sourced to it, from Misplaced Pages?

On Oct. 4, 2019, Omer Benjakob of Haaretz, Israel's paper of record, published a story about Misplaced Pages's coverage of Poland and the Holocaust, including what Benjakob called Misplaced Pages's longest-running hoax, related to content at the article "Warsaw concentration camp": . In this article, Benjakob interviewed User:Icewhiz and User:Piotrus, among others, and wrote, in the newspaper's voice, content that was critical of Icewhiz, Piotrus, User:Volunteer Marek, and others, as well as Misplaced Pages as a whole. As Benjakob predicted, back in 2019, and again in 2021, Piotrus and Volunteer Marek have removed content about the hoax, and the Haaretz article, from multiple Misplaced Pages pages. (All above statements copied from WP:COIN.)

This is an echo of EEML, a 2009 arbitration case. This matter has been unresolvable due to severe, persistent behavioral problems. The dispute is causing extreme damage to the encyclopedia, by enabling disinformation and ahistory.

Example of the discussion:

Jesus fucking Christ, reading COIN today was a mistake, because this thread makes me want to shove a pickaxe through my skull.

I found this mess at Misplaced Pages:Closure requests where it sat, unactioned, for 16 days. Because I was one of the people targeted for harassment by EEML, I would not touch it.

Update: Icewhiz denies that they ever harassed anyone, and claims that Piotrus and friends colluded in false complaints, which were accepted uncritically by WMF, without giving Icewhiz a chance to respond. My experience with WMF is that they are not infallible. ArbCom can't overrule WMF, but should not accept as fact whatever WMF says without proof and hearing a reply from Icewhiz. Piotrus claims to be subject of ongoing harassment by Icewhiz and socks. I think it's hard to resolve the content issues without determining whether content was placed by Icewhiz to harass Piotrus and friends, or if Piotrus and friends have been distorting Holocaust articles, or if both sides have fault. I don't know what happened, and we will not know unless there's a case. As a further complicating circumstance, Haaretz is preparing a new article, and there is a book coming out. It will be better for Misplaced Pages to investigate and self-correct than to be embarrassed for its ignorance and inaction. Jehochman 13:59, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Aquillion makes a very interesting point, This is, largely, about a footnote. A footnote. Indeed, just a footnote, yet the linked discussions include more than 50,000 words, and the uninvolved editors' typical reaction is, "Run away!" Jehochman 01:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Nableezy thank you for your service. ArbCom, you have the option to open a case of you are sufficiently concerned about the behavior in these threads. I don’t understand how the COIN discussion deteriorated into 40 pages of sniping without parties being reported to AE. Maybe we need a template to label noticeboard threads that are under DS because the subject article is under DS. Is that even the case? Jehochman 11:49, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Somebody good at templates: would you please make a template that we can place atop a noticeboard thread to announce that discretionary sanctions are in effect for that thread? Jehochman 13:43, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Ealdgyth please explain how the request should be framed or make a new request. It's a serious problem if some of our best editors are being driven from a topic area. This must not be allowed to continue. Jehochman 14:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus

I have no idea why the closure of three mostly stale discussions ended up at ArbCom. I'll just say that Jehochman seems pretty confused about a number of things (including reposting a somewhat biased summary of the discussion in question - no, the Haaretz piece is not critical of Icewhiz, it's very sympathetic to his "plight", and criticizes all of his opponents, including the ArbCom, which had the gall of banning the poor fella...). There is also zero relation to the now 12-years old EEML case; although apparently, Jehochman has bad memories of it (for the record, I don't recall interacting much with Jehochman, and it is the first I hear EEML has targetted them - although it was 12 years ago and EEML included various individuals with various agendas...). Anyway, it would be good for this poisoning the well/WP:ASPERSIONS with references to ancient wiki history to end. As for the closure requests in question, it would be good to see a closure by someone familiar with the issue at hand (i.e. the extent of harassment by Icewhiz out of which the Haaretz piece is his biggest success, in which he duped an otherwise reasonable journalist and newspaper into reprinting his ArbCom-rejected conspiracy theory). #Statement by Alanscottwalker is actually a nice solution and I'd endorse it. On a side note, I do think it is important for the community to clearly say that such calls to arms (cf. quotes from the paper in the collapsed section below) representing extreme WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and also WP:BLP/WP:NPA/WP:AGF violations (although outside the project space) are not welcome on the project, in any shape or form. In other words, WP:HARASSMENT needs to be observed, and it should also prohibit the usage of harassment outside Misplaced Pages as a source for anything (also per WP:DFTT). I am not sure if this is for ArbCom to say so, but perhaps they need to do so if the community has trouble dealing with such fake news. Also, this can all be resolved without a need for the full case if a proper closure is carried out.

I really don't think Misplaced Pages should support "granting ammunition for his last offensive in the footnote war". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@L235: Perhaps unsurprisingly, I don't agree with the close by User:Nableezy. In my view, the COIN thread did not endorse either position, mine or Levivich's, and should be closed as no consensus (or perhaps reopened to solicit further input). My reading and tally of the COIN thread indicate that:

• the following editors agreed with Levivich that I and VM have a COI: User:François Robere, User:Starship.paint, User:Pabsoluterince, User:Inf-in MD (banned as a sock since...), User:Softlavender, User:Szmenderowiecki, User:ProcrastinatingReader, User:AlexEng, User:Mlb96, User:Ryk72. Total: 9 (excluding the OP and a banned sock)
• the following did not see a COI: User:Firefangledfeathers, User:Hemiauchenia, User:GizzyCatBella, User:Nihil novi, User:Aquillion, User:Only in death, User:Evrik, User:Doug Weller (total: 8, excluding parties, i.e. VM and me)
• the following were unsure or I am unsure myself how to interpret their input: User:Masem, User:Darwinek (who called the source in question unreliable but did not opine on the COI), User:Chumchum7 (who I think did likewise), User:Selfstudier (I think they're leaning to no COI but bolded Hum instead of a clear statement...), User:Polska jest Najważniejsza (leaning towards COI I think, calling such edits unethical), User:Zero0000 (who mostly commented on possible copyvio), User:AndyTheGrump (who mostly criticized the very fact of Misplaced Pages discussing itself...).

Hope I didn't miss anybody. Perhaps Nableezy's interpreted some of the votes differently, but they did not provide a breakdown, or perhaps he found arguments of one side superior to others, but likewise, they did not say so. Or perhaps they find 9:8 a "consensus"... IMHO the COIN discussion in the current form is a clear no consensus, endorsing neither Levivich's POV, nor objecting to it (and endorsing my and VM's POV).

I really don't feel like spending XMAS and NYE dealing with this issue, and frankly, I am not particularly enjoying dealing with this entire ripple of Icewhiz's harassment, on many levels. What can be done? I see the following options:

• everyone just moves on with the current close remaining (although per above I believe the close is improper).
• the discussion at COIN is reopened in the slight hope it will attract more participation and a more clear consensus will emerge (but note that COIN is an imperfect venue here, as COI is just one side of the coin, HARASSMENT is the other)
• ArbCom makes their own call on a number of issues, such as:
  • can editors remove (or add...) a source in which they are mentioned when the said source is not used to discuss them on Misplaced Pages. I will note that several editors at COIN raised concerns that endorsing such a view means that we will open a new way of edging one's opponents out of certain topics, and harassing them, through the use of sympathetic newspieces.
  • can a source significantly influenced by and representing a POV of a banned editor, clearly intended to further a BATTLEGROUND environment, be used as a source. Or less extreme - can sources that can be seen as violating WP:HARASSMENT somewhere in their body be used as sources for facts that are not directly related to said harassment? As a reminder, nobody is disputing the fact that there was an error in the KL Warsaw article, the issue is, can we use a source from an otherwise reliable newspaper that also, in that particular piece, is endorsing a POV of an indef-banned harasser, contains harassing statements, calls to arms, and possibly fake news claims, to source something that otherwise is not disputed?
  • if the answer to the first is no or a general view that it is not best practice (something which I can understand), but the answer to the second is also no or a general view that we should look for better sources (that don't contain personal attacks or harassment of our volunteers), what is the interaction here? As in, editors are advised to be mindful of COI but can remove harassment despite COI concerns or not? Which policy is superior: COI or HARASSMENT? In other words, can one remove a source that violates harassment in the context of oneself or not? If not, what's the recommended procedure? Post on the article's talk page? AN(I)? Is there a harassment noticeboard to help with such issues?

In case this is not clear to some. As someone who has been a victim of real-life harassment by Icewhiz, I feel that the Haaretz story is part of his harassment campaign (cf. the story itself, quoted above, clearly admitting it is part of his call to arms campaign). Per WP:HARASSMENT, I don't think this story should be linked to anywhere from Misplaced Pages, as it empowers him and continues his harassment campaign. Preferably, the story should not be removed by me but there should be a community consensus it is not an acceptable source. The problem is that the source, Haaretz, is generally reliable (although the said piece contains a number of factual errors...). And if looked through the prism of COI only, yes, obviously, there are some COI issues here. Where is the right noticeboard to discuss whether the source should be disallowed not because it is unreliable, but because it is part of a harassment campaign? And how to untangle the issue of "you have a COI since the source is critical of you" from "the source is critical of me because it is a part of a real-life harassment of me, and harassment is not allowed on Misplaced Pages"? Lastly, quoting from WP:OWH: "Off-wiki harassment, including through the use of external links, will be regarded as an aggravating factor by administrators and is admissible evidence in the dispute-resolution process, including Arbitration cases."

So in summary, I see the possible role of ArbCom here as ruling on best practices when it comes to the intersection of COI and HARASSMENT. If defined in this way, it's clearly a difficult topic, and something for ArbCom to mull over. As for who are the parties - probably everyone who removed or restored the content in question. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

There’s absolutely NO WAY I’m wasting ANY time on this stupidity. Volunteer Marek 22:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

ARGHGHGHGGHHGJHGHGN!!!!! Here is me already wasting my time on this. This is in response to Softlavender - it’s simply not true, it’s 100% false, that any “material that mentions them from a Misplaced Pages article” was removed by ANYBODY. There was no material mentioning anyone anywhere on Misplaced Pages to be removed!!!! Between this completely false claim, Softlander falsely accusing users of “perpetuating hoaxes”, Jhochmann somehow claiming he was a “specifically target of EEML” (reality: no one on there gave a fig about him and he was only mentioned in passing) and Levivich running around screaming EEML! EEML! EEML! and dragging out a twelve year old case this is already turning out to be a train wreck.

Goddamit, somebody just do the sensible thing and close any remaining discussions or RfCs (pretty sure some of them have already been closed and this here is just WP:FORUMSHOPPING), stop wasting people’s time, and go on and have the happy holidays. Volunteer Marek 22:49, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Alanscottwalker

Ask three of the retiring arbitrators (if they are uninvolved) to close each of those discussions listed in the case request. And go from there, if those closes do not or find they can not resolve it. (As for behavior, from the present case request, it does not look like behavioral issues, assuming there are behavioral issues, have been dispute resolutioned at lower levels by admin intervention, or at places like ANI/AN, which should normally be tried before this committee accepts.) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Arbitration would not close the discussions or decide content, individual administrators/users would close based on the discussions, and then any arbitrating, if more were needed, could be done by the remaining arbitrators (and to sweeten the deal, we'd give the closers a year end bonus, twice their present salary). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Paul Siebert

I would like to comment on EEML. I think I have a right to do that because, as I learned several years after the EEML story had ended, I myself was a potential target of their activity: they were contemplating some joint actions against me, but they concluded their standard strategy would not be effective against me. Nevertheless, I think the reference to EEML is hardly relevant to this case: EEML was a loose group of users from different post-Soviet states, and they were acting in coordination only when they had a common opponent (pro-Russian or pro-Communist users). Some of those users are still acting, sporadically, as a tag-team in Communism related topics, but that is very rare, and, importantly, Piotrus never participates in that. In this concrete case, we are dealing with just few users who are interested in the same topic (Polish history). That is pretty legitimate, and I see no reason to speak about any resurrection of "EEML hydra" in this particular case.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: A distinctive feature of EEML was an extensive off-Wiki coordination of ostensibly independent users. By calling someone "EEML-2", you imply involvement of some users in some significant off-Wiki coordination or similar malicious activity. We don't have such evidences, and I doubt we will ever have them. Without evidences, your claim may be considered a personal attack.

Even EEML itself was discovered by accident. We have no reason to rule out a possibility of other mail list groups, which may be currently active, but, since we will hardly get an information about them, we must assume no such coordination exists.

In reality, the main reason that made EEML so dangerous is one fundamental flaw in Misplaced Pages's approach towards dispute resolution. We implicitly assume that two arguments presented by different users have more weight than the very same arguments presented by a single user. And the same is true collective vs individual actions.

A recent example is this. This AE case lead to a block of one user who made more than one revert during less then 24 hours, and then stopped to edit. Interestingly, although I explicitly pointed out that those two reverts were just a minor part of the edit war, where three ex-EEML members were involved as a "tag-team", this my comment was totally ignored. In my opinion, this attitude of admins provoke users to establish tacit off-Wiki communication to evade totally formal admin's radars.

However, that does not mean that different users who are interested in the same topic cannot edit it concurrently, and it is absolutely unimportant if they were the members of some mailing list 12 years ago. Paul Siebert (talk) 18:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Outsider's comment GoodDay

Clarifiy: Was this newspaper story written by a banned editor or was the newspaper story's source a banned editor? GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Now that I got my clarification. Indeed the said-piece should be deleted from Misplaced Pages. Icewhiz (via his continuing socks) has IMHO, zero credibility here. I'll leave it to the rest of you, to decide the next steps. GoodDay (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Biruitorul

As a card-carrying EEML member, can I just say that irrelevantly exhuming our doughty cabal twelve years later is downright absurd at this point? If one wants to criticize Piotrus’ actions — although I see nothing blameworthy, only a sincere attempt to defend the project from the slanders of a disgruntled banned editor — by all means do so, but bringing up something that happened a few months into the Obama administration isn’t the winning argument one may imagine it to be. — Biruitorul 17:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich

Volunteer Marek and Piotrus were parties to WP:EEML; the reason it's relevant today is that they're still doing the same thing they were doing twelve years ago, and that's what the Haaretz article is about, specifically discussing EEML, Piotrus, and Marek. In the COIN thread are diffs of coordinated editing (reinstating each other's reverted edits, for example) and the COIN thread itself (and the other three) also show coordinated bludgeoning. EEML editors have been working together to erase this Haaretz article from everywhere it appeared in Misplaced Pages (even tho the content has been stable for two years). Marek had been tbanned and this new activity in 2021 comes right on the heels of him being un-tbanned (by arbcom). Piotrus was also tbanned for 3 months last year for canvassing. This stuff has been going on for like seventeen years in total (years before the EEML case), and it's still happening today. If this is accepted as a case, it might even be called EEML 2 (with a similar scope, and perhaps some additional parties should be added, including some who were parties to EEML). Personally I think it's obvious enough to not even need a full case, but then I remain in perpetual disbelief that anyone from EEML was ever allowed to edit again, at all. Levivich 17:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not just one article, it's at least three articles (Warsaw concentration camp, Reliability of Misplaced Pages, and List of Misplaced Pages controversies) plus WP:List of Misplaced Pages hoaxes), plus the COIN thread.

And it's only a footnote in the first article, and I'm the one who moved it to a footnote this past summer IIRC as a compromise to stop an edit war. The suggestion that this is about a footnote is a bit frustrating; this is about editors removing all instances of an article that is critical of them from the encyclopedia. It's more than a footnote, and everyone who has participated in these disputes knows that.

If I want to accuse someone of off-wiki coordination, I will use the words "off-wiki" prior to "coordination". If I omit "off-wiki", I mean on-wiki coordination. Details, links, diffs, are in the COIN thread. The other potential parties would be parties bludgeoning or being uncivil in the linked threads.

I don't think a case is required either, I like the idea of someone closing those threads though, and if there are conduct issues in those threads, they can be dealt with. Levivich 03:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

This is, largely, about a footnote. A footnote. The other places are an internal Misplaced Pages page and two sentences at Reliability of Misplaced Pages, all of which has (somehow) now reached ArbCom. ArbCom should reject this, inclusion or exclusion at each of those places should be resolved by an RFC, and if anyone really really wants to add this source at multiple additional places it could possibly also be discussed in a broader RFC at RSN or NPOVN, depending on whether you want to argue about whether the source is basically reliable or whether its use is due / undue. We have systems for resolving such trivial and insignificant content disputes before they reach ArbCom; use them. As far as the COIN issue any administrator is free to close it with action, and if no one is willing to do so, that is likely an indicator that there's insufficient consensus to act on it.

Also, if ArbCom does decide despite that that they must accept this, it would be inappropriate to only examine Volunteer Marek and Piotrus' behavior (Jehochman is, AFAIK, largely uninvolved) given how unfortunately long and involved the dispute has become. At the very least, anyone who has spent serious amounts of time adding / restoring the disputed text or opening / pursuing sanctions should also have their behavior examined; if ArbCom decides it involvement is needed to resolve the underlying dispute, it must examine all sides in it. --Aquillion (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Nihil novi

For apposite reasons cited by Alanscottwalker, GoodDay, Biruitorul, and Aquillion, I believe that arbitration is not the proper means for adjudicating Jehochman's meritless allegations. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

May an editor remove, from an article, a statement that he believes to be incorrectly complimentary to him? Conversely, may he not remove a statement that is libelous to him as a living person? Nihil novi (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender

I am not a party to any of the articles or talkpages or subjects involved in this dispute. I did !vote and opine in the COIN thread about the user-behavior issue at hand.

It seems a no-brainer than editors cannot remove material that mentions them from a Misplaced Pages article. If it takes ArbCom to settle that, then so be it. Perhaps an entire case is not necessary; a simple tally ruling could suffice. Softlavender (talk) 22:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Alternative solution: The problem with the various RFCs and polls is that they were either limited to the Warsaw concentration camp article and/or were not wide enough in scope or location (too many partisan respondents and not enough uninvolved, non-partisan, site-wide participation; scope was too narrowly focused on one wiki article and one content item).

I propose an RFC at WP:Centralized discussion that reads:

Should editors remove content that mentions them from Misplaced Pages articles?

It's a simple yes or no poll, and can run the standard RFC length. An arbitrator or the committee (or any completely uninvolved longstanding, neutral, respected admin) can close it.

--Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

After reading all 4 threads provided by Jehochman, this conflict appears to be indeed about the article "Warsaw concentration camp", but more importantly, about the banned User:Icewhiz. This is the case when the banned contributor has created sock puppets and disrupts Misplaced Pages by publishing in Haaretz (and on off-wiki forums) about contributors with whom he had a grudge.

Furthermore, I believe the removal of the text in question (one referenced to Haaretz) was legitimate because it was used essentially as an attack page, and I did not see any other cases where the contributors in question might be viewed as involved in COI editing. But the inclusion of this text should be decided in an RfC. That's the way.

If there was anything problematic in the DS ares (as was alleged on WP:COINB), that can be reported to WP:AE, not here.

Therefore, I think the best course of action would be to ignore this request, and just to close two currently active RfCs (linked to by Jehochman). My very best wishes (talk) 05:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Szmenderowiecki

I understand the confusion the OP has about the concurrent threads ultimately leading to the Haaretz article in question. (Btw, the EEML invocation here is really irrelevant. Even though there is some rather concerning behaviour, I think it falls short of ArbCom intervention - I've seen worse; probably it should be dealt with at AN/ANI level).

Aquillion is right that the question is only about a footnote, so we might be making a mountain out of a molehill, and indeed I believe that in a way, that is the case because the information is not cited to Icewhiz's opinion but is simply a factual statement that no one seems to dispute (on the other hand, I resent any more discussions on RSN/NPOVN/other areas, because we already have had one and three are open, and one on RSN AFAIK was closed per WP:TALKCENT). However, there are important questions that have been triggered while discussing this Haaretz source, which ArbCom might be willing to consider:

• Whether articles published in generally reliable sources (according to WP:RSP) may be tainted (considered unreliable) if one of the sources for the article is a banned editor, and if so, whether that applies to the whole article or the parts where the banned editor is speaking (which solves the question of whether we may source some information to the article which happens to contain the banned editor's opinions but are which is not mentioned in the article's text)
• Whether a user has a conflict of interest if they are mentioned (by username) in a 3rd-party article published in a generally reliable source.
• Adopt a uniform definition of the word "hoax" for the purposes of articlespace (and Misplaced Pages space, where the first debate about the word "hoax" took place, too), i.e. whether a user's intent to deceive is needed or it is enough to show that by all likelihood the information was initially published as a hoax.

I believe ArbCom may take the second question (it is not the content one) as the discussions are dispersed among different threads (even if they concern the same topic), and for the above questions, the community could not find an acceptable solution to the problem. The three-admin solution should work for the rest, but then it should be a single resolution concerning all the RfCs and discussions, and this resolution should answer the questions mentioned above (all of them if ArbCom declines to take the case and the first and the third ones if ArbCom decides to resolve the conflict of interest question). I would rather that ArbCom considered the case, particularly in light of prior interactions with the now-banned user (which ended up on ArbCom as well) and the possible sockpuppet influence in the threads that some users here allege.

Answering My very best wishes, I don't believe AE is the proper venue because the COI rules proved not as clear-cut as it could seem, and if we can't agree on the interpretation of the rules, we don't know what to enforce in the first place; besides, I don't see having COI it as a violation of something (as an AE report would suggest); finally, this might be a situation where simple admin attention might not be enough, because that surely will not be the first or the last case.

Amending my statement: because the COIN thread was just closed with a yes-COI result by Nableezy (thank you, though I'd personally prefer a three-editor closure so that it is more accepted in the community), I think that any potential appeal, since we are at it, should be made here because the case is complicated. Of course, any such appeal should happen only after talking to Nableezy and then announcing their will here to challenge the closure and have it reviewed by ArbCom. 10:25, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: your statement seems to imply some off-wiki coordination between users wishing to remove the Haaretz article. While the amount of energy some of them have spent on removing it is absolutely mind-boggling (particularly when speaking of a footnote), you should best present some evidence of this behaviour before anyone blocks or sanctions anyone. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: See, the same users participate in all four discussions, Piotrus, VM or you revert its addition or challenge the inclusion of the source (this earned Volunteer Marek a 3RR report, which was not really acted upon, among other things); Levivich was the most active on the other side and I don't find their behaviour commendable, either. I admit being one of the more active participators in the three later discussions; for example, I opened the RfC on the Warsaw concentration camp talk page because of your challenge. Also, "them" did not necessarily mean only the "oppose/no/remove" side. However, given my expansion of the article, I think I was probably in the best position to say how good/how prevalent the sources were or how the Trzcińska story evolved (fortunately or not, Dreamcatcher25, the other editor who worked very deeply on the issue on Polish Misplaced Pages, did not share his thoughts - I would love to hear from him). In other words, answering your question: I don't know how much time other editors on the support side spent on the issue, but as far as I am concerned, I spent much more time expanding and improving the article to what I believe might be a GA-class article after a thorough and independent assessment of some outstanding issues than on bickering in the talk pages, which doesn't make encyclopedia better, does it? :)

As a side note, there is a point to be made about some sort of irrational obsession with Icewhiz (or with non-500/30 user participation, suggesting the non-EC must be either clueless or socks, or both). Yes, he's not good, yes, socking isn't good either. But, I mean, folks here tell us not to feed the troll but then stress in bold and underline that they are a globally banned editor for several times in the discussion, and invoke them whenever the occasion comes. I mean, had I indeed been a troll and an evil rubble-rouser, I would be delighted by such behaviour - it wastes legitimate editors' time, it makes butthurt grow and spread exponentially, and I am afforded recognition at the end of the day as the arch-nemesis of Misplaced Pages. I believe it would be one of the troll's best days ever, dontyathink? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:25, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

François Robere, the first quote comes from an edit posted at midnight on that day. There is no edit in the talk page with the 2:00, 22 Nov 2021 timestamp. Please change the talk page history link to the diff. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 11:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by GizzyCatBella

Quote from Szmenderowiecki’s statement - While the amount of energy some of them have spent on removing it is absolutely mind-boggling...

• @ Szmenderowiecki --> Could you please evaluate the amount of energy some of you spent on maintaining it? Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:04, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon (Warsaw Concentration Camp)

User:Barkeep49 asks: "For those who will suggest we accept this case, what do you see as our scope because we're not going to rule on content?" I am not saying that ArbCom should accept, but I am prepared to answer what the scope is if ArbCom accepts the case, and to use that as a guide to whether the case must be accepted. But I will first answer another question by Barkeep49: "The question of when an editor can remove a (reliable) source critical of them in their role as an editor feels worthy of an answer." The answer to that question, whether an editor can remove information that is critical of them, should be: No. No. No way. That would be inconsistent with neutral point of view and would be a conflict of interest. No editor should be permitted to edit for a self-serving reason, even in order to correct what they see as an error. Whether that has happened is a conduct issue. ArbCom should accept a case if there is a conduct issue, including self-serving edits, that the community is not resolving or cannot resolve. In particular, ArbCom should accept this case, as one that the community cannot resolve, if it involves sensitive information that cannot be released to the community. We know that there is sensitive information that cannot be released, involved in the global ban of Icewhiz. If ArbCom is not sure whether they need to open a case to look into conduct issues including self-serving editing, then they should open a case to look into conduct issues including self-serving editing. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

I didnt see Captain Eek offer to close the COIN thread, and I thought the consensus there was fairly obvious and did it myself. If yall gonna do that then Ill revert my close. nableezy - 05:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Sure, User:Piotrus, I can break it down for you. The arguments for no COI generally fell in to three camps, the slippery slope that editors can be restricted from topics by sources critical of them, that this was just a re-hashing of Icewhiz's claims and as such should be ignored, and the article is not true (there was one more substantive no COI argument, and I'll get to that one). The slippery slope bit I didn't reject as weak, but weaker in regards to the specific topic of editing about this source. That would be a strong argument against a COI for the topic of the Warsaw concentration camp, and I did not find that there is any COI there. But until we start to slip down that slope, I dont find that convincing on the topic of a COI with regard to the editing related to the Haaretz article itself. That argument would have been convincing if somebody claimed you had a COI with the article Warsaw concentration camp, or the wider Holocaust in Poland topic, but on coverage of your edits itself I did not find it to be all that strong. The argument based on the source is Icewhiz I placed almost no weight on at all. I dont think I need to establish my bona fides for being not a Friend of Icewhiz here, but you can count his socks agitating for a ban against me here if you need that established. But the argument that a presumptively reliable source is ruled out because its source is somehow compromised is a non-starter in my view. Anonymous sources invariably have an agenda, their own motive for wanting to see a story published. We depend on the source to verify the claims and only print what they can substantiate independently. So I mostly tossed out the "this is just Icewhiz" votes on that basis. The argument on but the article is not accurate was likewise weak. I agree that there are claims in the article that it would be a poor source for, eg 100+ Polish editors (how on Earth would they know? Did they count userboxes? Have CU data?). But in general we operate on verifiability, not truth, and if one reliable source is wrong the way to challenge it is to demonstrate that other reliable sources dispute what it says. That left me discounting, mostly, the but it's wrong argument. The argument by Aquillion was in my view the strongest. That based on your editing you would be removing the source even if you were not mentioned, making it so that is not your motivation. That is you are objecting to the source not based on any conflict, but based on our other policies of NPOV and V. That however was not enough to overcome what I thought the supporters said regarding the removal of a source that explicitly mentions you and your edits. There were a number of "No COI" and "Yes COI" votes without any real explanation that I factored in slightly, but in my view the stronger arguments were very much on one side of the ledger here. I reject entirely you have a COI with Grabowski, or with editing the topic area as a whole. And believe me, I am sympathetic to the view that any random source cannot just restrict our editors from editing topics based on their criticism of those editors. Which is why I did not find any COI for the actual topic, only on coverage of your edits related to it. nableezy - 14:18, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by ProcrastinatingReader

I was going to say the issue looked intractable, that the consensus process had broken down. Content was being decided by brute force and tag teaming. Administrators weren't taking action on editors, despite this issue ending up at noticeboards before. There was full protection for a while, but obviously it didn't solve anything and the edit war just continued after the scrutiny died down. That's not the way content disputes should be decided.

But then this RFAR was filed, and then nableezy closed the COIN thread. The judgement of the COIN should influence the closing of the other RfCs, thus offering a way out of this dispute, should there be a willing closer after the discussion periods lapse. If editors disagree with nableezy's close, there is always the usual WP:CLOSECHALLENGE process at WP:AN. (I'm biased, but I think nableezy closed it correctly. I also think it would be in ArbCom's remit to pass a judgement on the matter, as ArbCom does interpret community policy and decides how it applies to niche conduct scenarios, but we may not be at that point yet.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by François Robere

I completely agree with Jehochman's evaluation, and think Alanscottwalker's proposal is reasonable. However, I would encourage the committee to review editors' and admins' behavior, since it is beyond me how comments like these can pass off as legitimate without triggering immediate admin involvement:

• 02:00, 22 November 2021 "it seems that the only reason some editors are so adamant on including this source... is simply because they want to 'stick it to Piotrus'. I think it's very clear that insistence on this particular, very flawed and unnecessary source, is to both grief Piotrus (and some other editors) and at the same time "protect Icewhiz's legacy" or something like that."
• 20:17, 26 November 2021 "This whole thing is here simply because a banned editor and his friends and a bunch of sock puppets went and spammed this incident into as many articles as they could as a form of "revenge" for the fact that said editor got side banned from all WMF projects"
• 18:42, 27 November 2021 "all of this is a whole bunch of bad faithed ridiculous HOOEY pushed by Icewhiz's friends and meatpuppets on Misplaced Pages... These friends - let's put all our cards on the table here - are Levivich and Francois Robere (usually supported in these endeavors by various sock puppets of Icewhiz or other indef banned users)."
• 19:01, 27 November 2021 "Levivich's write up is a masterwork of cynical sophistry, strategic omission and manipulation"

Also note an earlier incident on the same subject.

François Robere (talk) 11:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@El C: You forgot to mention your five behavioral warnings to Volunteer Marek, which never materialized into sanctions. François Robere (talk) 11:26, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki: Thanks for the notice. I think it's due to timezone adjustment on my end (there's an option in the preferences), so it shows differently for me. François Robere (talk) 11:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by El_C

Agree with pretty much everything ProcrastinatingReader says above, including about nableezy's close being correct.

I'd like to also state for the record that I was fairly instrumental in seeing Volunteer Marek and GizzyCatBella TBANs lifted (with the unrelenting harassment they were both subjected to being the mitigating factor), and I also treated Piotrus with an especial leniency for violating CANVASS, with a sanction that was basically symbolic. The greatest blunder of my Misplaced Pages career bar none. El_C 11:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

François Robere, that many? Still, even if so, those warning were more on the softer side of CIVIL enforcement / tone policing, which I don't usually sanction for. VM's warnings weren't special in that regard . I rarely if ever block for disparate acts of rudeness. But whatever, I acknowledge that you have valid grievances wrt myself. El_C 11:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, François Robere. I didn't realize that you almost left because of my inaction. Honestly, I was a bit overwhelmed at the time and I just wanted to avoid dealing with a gauntlet that would be time and energy consuming, and one which would have been difficult to defend (a sanction for soft violations) and likely to be overturned. I just didn't have the stamina at the time and probably should have just left it to someone else. El_C 11:52, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Jehochman, RE: DS notice for related noticeboards discussions. It is not the case, but that's a good idea. El_C 11:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Jehochman, I think you misunderstand. A noticeboard discussion is subject to DS like anywhere else on the prject. There just isn't a template listed in Template:Ds/topics/single notice to formally notify participants about it. El_C 12:11, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, I know. For my part, I did my best to treat Buidhe with extra leniency, not least because I think she's an excellent scholar. But I'm only one man. El_C 14:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Pabsoluterince

I agree entirely with @Szmenderowiecki: in terms of the core questions that need to be resolved for the future and his well reasoned assessment of the situation. Given the close, I - who voted for COI - think that normal processes should only be dealt with by arbitration if they once again falter. Pabsoluterince (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Ealdgyth

I'll just repeat my previously noted comment that the conduct of other editors in this topic area has driven me from this area. So @El C: it's not just Francois, others have been driven away by the editor behavior that's been allowed to "flourish" (I'd say that @Buidhe: would be another, and before we lost her, SlimVirgin/Sarah was a third). That said, I don't think this case request is well-framed to look into the issues in the topic area. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Warsaw concentration camp: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Warsaw concentration camp: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0>-Warsaw_concentration_camp-2021-12-21T15:10:00.000Z">

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

• There's zero doubt that the conversations around this have been very difficult and it's unsurprising that someone would look our way. Questions on my mind: For those who will suggest we accept this case, what do you see as our scope because we're not going to rule on content? For those who would suggest we decline, how do you see this conflict resolving short of a case? Barkeep49 (talk) 15:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)"> ">

  While I continue to read the perspectives of community members with interest, and have done a re-read of the diffs provided, I am inclined to suggest that the option provided by Alanscottwalker is a good one if there is someone willing to do it. The question of when an editor can remove a (reliable) source critical of them in their role as an editor (as opposed to the more typical situation of a BLP removing a (reliable) source critical about them for whatever makes them notable) feels worthy of an answer. I see some bludgeoning and other behavior in that COIN thread such that the average uninvolved editor may be reluctant to close. This does not mean, from my read, that there is no consensus to be found, or even if there is no consensus no value from a formal close. The open RfC seems to indicate our dispute resolution methods are working in other ways and I am not seeing evidence (so far) that a broader examination of editor behavior is necessary, rather than using AE as needed. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:02, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Placeholder—will review and comment tomorrow. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• My inclination is to have ArbCom formally close the COIN thread; that would be a conduct not a content problem imo. I think we could probably do that by motion: either they have a COI or they don't. I also like the outgoing arb approach, but since I'm not an outgoing arb I can't really volun-tell someone else. I'm most interested to hear from folks if they think this problem is bigger than this one article, and who else might be a party (specific names, please). Otherwise, I am hesitant to accept cases about a single article, absent something...extraordinary. As a side note, since it is the holidays, I might not be that attentive to this matter until the new year arrives. CaptainEek ⚓ 03:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
• I'm uneasy about ArbCom as a group closing an RfC. Since RfC closures are meant to reflect community consensus, the community has always had the power to overturn an RfC closure at AN – how would this change if ArbCom directly closed an RfC? Could the community overturn such a closure? If not, wouldn't such an RfC closure just be us setting (unchangeable) policy? In any event, Nableezy has now closed the RfC (Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_181). Would the parties advise whether further ArbCom action is necessary, and if so, what their preferred actions are? Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 06:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
• @Jehochman, Icewhiz was removed for a reason, he would not be able to participate in this case, if it were to go ahead. Removing him does not stop him from being discussed. Please do not re-add. Worm(talk) 14:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)