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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rednblu (talk | contribs) at 05:44, 8 March 2005 (Is evolution a "fact"? The creationists probably would agree that evolution was a "fact" if you and I could do an analog of the Torsion bar experiment that convinces people of gravity.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Totally disputed notice

I've put a totally disputed notice on the page Views of creationists and mainstream scientists compared. I did this because Ungtss has started reformatting the page to be in the form fact, viewpoint, viewpoint. This will result in POV. Here is why:

Facts should the main point of an argument. We can divide the facts on this page into several categories. Facts about viewpoints, facts about natural phenonomen, facts about deductions from theories, facts about mathematical principles. By introducing the style given above Ungtss is letting only facts about natural phenonomen and facts about viewpoints into the article. If theory A predicts X but theory B does not the article could say that:

• Theory A predicts X. Adherents of theory B say it predicts X but many disagree.

Wereas in the new format this could only be written:

• Adherents of theory A believe it predicts X. Adherents of theory B believe it predicts X.

I would ask that you help remedy this problem with the article. I shall not have the time I'm afraid (See my User page). I notice that you are a new user. I'm just asking you because you've expressed an interest in this article before. Barnaby dawson 14:14, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

views

hey man, i would really like to work together with you on this, but twisting and distorting creationist ideas out of recognition is not the way to go. please, josh, let's try and do this right. Ungtss 01:43, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

i honestly don't know how you can live with yourself. you've become just like those religious dogmatics you hate -- censoring everything you're afraid of, instead of defeating it with facts. it makes me very, very sad to see you content with your ignorance. your attitude will be the downfall of your worldview. Ungtss 13:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I moved the commentary from your User:Joshuaschroeder page to here

I hope that was all right. If not tell me, and I will put it all back like it was. I also entered a draft personal statement for you on your User:Joshuaschroeder page--which I hope you will edit freely as you wish. ---Rednblu | Talk 23:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Deletion of Views of Creationists and mainstream scientists compared

Hi Joshua.. I took a look at those articles you mentioned on my talk page, but it seems that 3 of the 4 have been deleted since you left your message, whilst the 4th, Creation vs. mainstream science in cosmology, is now a redirect to Creationist cosmologies. So I guess that's all OK now? —Stormie 09:25, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. Joshuaschroeder 14:00, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Excellent! —Stormie 19:07, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Words of support

I fully support your effort and that of the rest to keep the wikipedia as factual as possible, especially regarding to the distinction of scientific methodology vs irrational thinking (Which is very legit as long as it doesn't cross the line to rational thinking areas). --LexCorp 05:20, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Much appreciated. You might try helping us out in some of the more volatile areas of the creationist world. For example, creation biology. Flood geology is also in pretty bad shape. Creation beliefs needs work as does creation science. Joshuaschroeder 07:06, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

fortunately for you, some people don't yet know what you are. Ungtss 01:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but we know what Ungtss is: Someone whose sole purpose here is to slip disinformation and religious beliefs into articles here. DreamGuy 03:35, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

and then there's dreamguy ... another one stupid enough to think the interchangeable use of "religion" and "disinformation" is npov. but no worries. i've quit. i wish you all well in your cesspool of ignorance. Ungtss 22:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Gee, Ungtss, nothing like posting a message that proves our points for us. But then better for you to leave than get kicked off. DreamGuy 01:38, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

anyone reading Talk:Myth right now will see Hyacinth writing, in reference to your unjustified deletion of my cited material: "I find it distressing that a contributor who has provided a source would now be required to provide three more regarding the first while being personally attacked by someone who has contributed no sources to the dispute." Hyacinth 01:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC). that's you, personally attacking without contributing any sources to the dispute. that's why i'm leaving. Ungtss 01:43, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, anyone reading Talk:Myth will see that Hyacinth was confused because of your false claims and now supports my side after it was discussed further. And he repeatedly warned you several times about viscious personal attacks that you had to edit out later whereas my supposed "personal attacks" were simply explaining your past history. (Hyacinth has a rather unique view that those are basically minor personal attacks because he originally didn't consider them relevant to other article discussions, a view unsupported by most other editors here). He has since apologized to me for those comments. It's funny though that you are desperately clinging to a supportive statement that has since been rescinded to try to justify yourself. (Sorry, Joshua, for continuing the discussion here, but since it's directly relevant to the topic you are discussing here about Ungtss' bad behavior I figured it was probably OK.) DreamGuy 03:43, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Let's be perfectly clear, dreamguy. after you deleted the cited text without comment, i added this to the talkpage. no personal attack, just a section titled "here we go again." you responded with this, in which you detail my "sheer incompetence," my "church's approved reading list," accuse me "spreading my nonsense," and note the importance of "damage control." hmm. who is involved in the personal attacks again? And this over a cited section from a book on myth and literature by an oxford/cambridge lit professor. Yes, that is when i began defending myself at your expense, and i apologize for that. but please don't pretend you're an innocent victim here. Ungtss 00:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Advocacy

Hi, I'd like to be your advocate, but I need some directions of the problem (e.g. some diffs) before I can decide to help you or not. Answer me in my talk page (Warning: I'll be absent till Sunday 20th. If your problem is too urgent to wait till then, I'm not the right man). --Neigel von Teighen 21:58, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm in

This User:Ungtss is making too many personal attacks. I'll be your advocate in this matter. I'm not an expert on Creationism, but I don't tolerate such attacks...If you can send me a complete list of the talk pages it will be really helpful.

A suggestion, let's use e-mail from now. You can send me one using a this link. Yours! --Neigel von Teighen 14:14, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hello there. I'm glad to see you were trying to add some critical information to the article on the pseudo-scientific theory known as 'creationism'. I have added a new section 'criticisms of creationism' to the article, and I would appreciate any put you have on this matter. If the changes I've made have been edited out by the time you check the article out, feel free to add them again and to add your own. I will be asking other people to help me put this right too. Aaarrrggh 21:35, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi Joshuaschroeder. Regarding your comments about Ungtss on my talk page, I'm not really sure what to do with him. I had thought that if enough people stood up to him he'd get the clue that his way of doing things wasn't going to fly. I've been running into problems with him mostly on Deluge (mythology), and now Myth. Unfortunately he has another person (Phil Rayment or something like that) who is nearly as bad or worse helping him out, and he managed to confuse some editors without a background in mythology into thinking his sources were valid, so it's been a struggle. Of course he's been warned repeatedly to act responsibly by even those people (except Phil, who supports him and tries to outdo him at times). We could try to do a Request for Comment on him, but those appear to be fairly useless from my experience... Especially since someone harassing me decided he'd try to get me back by doing one on me a while ago, and then a collection of like-minded people slammed the heck out of me because I changfed what they wrote and stood up to their bullying in the past. I really think this is just an unfortunate side-effect of the way Misplaced Pages lets any old person off the street on. Articles get patrolled by rabid wwolves wwith distinct agendas, and there's very little we can do about it other than constantly revert or fix their shenanigans until we give up in frustration. They know this. I wouldn;t be surprised if political action committees start having full time paid Misplaced Pages and other website handlers soon. DreamGuy 03:31, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Do we make a WP:RfC?

I'm thinking to do a request for comment on Ungtss as a first step on the dispute resolution system we've got. Although RfC has proved not to be very efficient, it's a requisite if we need to do further moves like a request for mediation or for arbitration. I've been collecting evidence and I think we can do this. What is your opinion? --Neigel von Teighen 17:18, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

no need to worry about it. i'm quitting. schroeder + dreamguy will be free to develop their atheistic intellectual paradise without any interference from me. i do, suggest, tho, that before dealing further with these two, you look deeper into some page histories, including Joshua's creation of Ungtss vs. Mainstream science and Dreamguy's absolute insistence on the exclusion of religious views from pages on mythology. The attacks your seeing from me are the result of nearly 3 months of battling deliberate censorship and vandalism, and they've selected you as advocate because you are not aware of the things they have done, or the dozens of evolutionists and atheists who have supported my edits against theirs. People who have been involved in these battles for any period of time would support me.

but rather than waste your time or anyone else's time in this matter, I will simply withdraw, and allow wikipedia to maintain its systemic bias. i will just be sure to warn those i know that wikipedia as an entity is fantastically reliable for issues not involving religion, spirituality, or ideology, but will never be reliable on those topics, because of the fundamentalist anti-religious ethos carried on by men such as those with whom you are communicating. Ungtss 23:08, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"People who have been involved in these battles for any period of time would support me." Actually, that's patently false, as you are losing your battles left and right as more people see through to your agenda. But, OK, leave, works for me. 01:40, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Ungtss, I wasn't elected to be Schroeder's advocate: I accepted the case...You're quitting and that's not very common on Misplaced Pages's disputes: the majority of the long disputes get quickly into Arbitration cases. But, if you say you're quitting only for creating a sockpuppet account and restart your attacks, you'll get problems. --Neigel von Teighen 21:09, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sockpuppets? Quite simply, I have better things to do than skank around wikipedia with sockpuppets ... and i certainly have better things to do than endless edit wars and arbitration. if the system wants biased creationism articles, it can have them. if it ever wants npov ones, it can call on me to take part. Ungtss 23:44, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If "the system" wanted biased creationism articles it would have just let your changes stand unedited. DreamGuy 14:43, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Concerning the Request for Comment, I don't think the version as there now will cut it. You need to point directly to cases where we tried to work with him and he refused, expecting people to read through every talk page in existence isn't going to happen. Worse than that, one of the other recent RfCs was about someone with a Creationism bias, and it backfired because a number of other creationist posters showed up to support him.

On consideration, at this point if he's really not making any edits to any pages related to creationism in any way, I'm not sure there's anything to accomplish by a RfC anyway. What behavior out of him should we expect different than no longer editing the pages. If he wasnts to harass us on our talk pages, fine, I don't care, as anyone reading them can see right away that he's not someone worth taking seriously, based upon his rants and insults. DreamGuy 17:34, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Boycott warning by Ungtss

JS, I'm thinking we should do the RfC now. Ungtss has recognize to have boycotted the creationism pages, but doesn't show any will to stop doing that (see ). I can't do the request because it seems that the current system requires the RfC to be started by a direct participant of the dispute (I'm an indirect one). I can show some evidence and defend you if this gets worse. I'll also ask DreamGuy about this. Yours! --Neigel von Teighen 19:54, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Huh? i haven't edited creationism at all. i was encouraged by DanielCD (see this link) and RednBlue (see this link) to simply avoid this area, rather than quit entirely, because wikipedia does not yet have adequate standards for npov in creationism. also consider this. i apologize for getting overly frustrated with these two, but it is not a pattern. it is a personal conflict between me and them going back months. Dreamguy has also been known to flagrantly insult other creationists, such as this gem to philip rayment, in which philip was informed, "To sum up, you don't know what the heck you are talking about, and it's obvious. You should leave articles about mythology to the people who know the topic." I also found it interesting how he used "religious-motived mind" as an insult against mr. rayment. there's also this gem on his talkpage with somebody i don't even know. Unfortunately, the evidence on Schroeder disappeared with the articles he got deleted (including, may i remind you, 4 articles titled Ungtss vs. mainstream science in geology, Ungtss vs. mainstream science in biology, etc. what seems to be the problem, sir? Ungtss 23:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ungtss, only in your head is "To sum up, you don't know what the heck you are talking about, and it's obvious. You should leave articles about mythology to the people who know the topic." a "flagrant insult" -- That editor was making patently (and proven) false statements about mythology as justification for removal of a section about what mythologists think about the myths so he could put more focus on the religious viewpoint. Pointing out that he is wrong and obviously has no business making edits to a page about mythology is not an insult, it's a simple, practical and necessary statement. In fact, it's trying to explain Wiki NPOV rules: people with obvious bias and no knowledge of the topic at hand should get the heck away from the article. And now you whine and moan about it? And that's especially hypocritical because you routinely make insults that go clear off the scale of acceptability. Get a grip. You're only proving our case that you are so biased that people supporting your agenda can do no wrong and anyone trying to follow Wiki rules are somehow intellectually inferior and morally corrupt. DreamGuy

1) religious views are part of npov, particularly views of religious scholars on religious issues. presenting only secular views on religious issues is inherently pov.

2) you routinely delete cited scholarly opinions because they are "religious," and therefore unacceptable in your view. (here and [http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Deluge_%28mythology%29&diff=8471163&oldid=8471006 here). in the process, you personally attack me in the edit summaries, wondering "where i get off" and contemplating my "blatant religious bias."

3) you have routinely described religious views as a "bias" rather than a "pov," lining up your apparently npov views with all others, which are apparently mere "bias," whether held by cited scholars in the field or not.

4) you and your friend schroeder are in the minority in your opinion of me, and CERTAINLY in the minority in your opinion of Mr. Rayment, as illustrated above.

5) the views you censor are held by a number of high-grade academics, and present an alternative viewpoint that deserves representation on a page on the topic.

6) no creationist here has EVER suggested deleting the secular pov from these pages as long as i've been here. we've simply requested a fair and accurate representation of our viewpoint, and have been routinely censored and personally attacked, as illustrated above.

7) you have attacked not only creationists, but also people with views different than yours on the jack the ripper article -- to the point where the other person continually requested that you cool down, only to be repeatedly slammed by you.

8) schroeder has renamed PAGES to vandalize and mock me.

9) and now you're on me. right. Ungtss 17:06, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1) Considering that the disputes I have had with you are not on articles about "religious issues," your claims that I only allow secular views of religious issues is nonsense.

2) I routinely remove opinions that are not scholarly or that are irrelevant to the pages in question. Your claim to the contrary is merely your bias showing itself again.

3) No, I don't call religious views bias, I call an orchestrated agenda to insert religion into articles that have nothing to do with it and to remove what experts much more qualified and numerous than the people you falsely claim to be experts from articles because it makes your side look bad is a bias. Complaining about how awful changes are that take a small step toward nuetrality but still are full of your POV when more drastic changes to get them into the middle are necessary is a bias.

4) Yes, yes, yes, you always try to back up your side with spurious claims to a majority. Funny, I don't see anyone other than the Rayment guy (who is perhaps just as abusive and biased as you) taking your side in the articles I edit. If you actually had a majority, you wouldn't be here complaining because you would have been able to keep your POV edits in the affected articles. You can't, because consensus is consistently reached that you are doing your changes for bad motives.

5) High grade academics? LOL, yet more unsupported statements. Creationists are consistently among the least educated and least skilled in the field, and we already know you lost your argument that CS Lewis was an expert on mythology.

6) That's either an outright lie or the result of an incredibly reality-impaired bias. Happens constantly, they just try to call the deletions "balance" when it's no such thing. The recent blow up came from Rayment wanting to remove the only section in the Deluge (mythology) article about what the experts on mythology use to explain their origin, with the hopes of leaving more space for more religious campaigning.

7) You call it attacked, I call it standing up to bullies. It's amazing how some people will call foul and make accusations when someone dares to change something they wrote, even when you can prove that it's factually incorrect or that the consensus of the editors on the page overwhelmingly disagrees with them. The people working on the actual pages end up siding with me, so I'm obviously doing things the right way.

8) Not my issue, and certainly a lot less damaging than the things you;ve routinely done here.

Here's the deal: If you stay off the page you agreed to and stop butting in on other people's conversations on talk pages to toss out insults and false accusations, then there isn't a reason for the RfC to proceed, and you can feel free to do all those alleged solid contributions to wikipedia that you claim to want to make. I have the feeling though that you are only here to bang one drum, and that's to put your religious views into articles in a highly biased and unencyclopedic way. Prove me wrong and we won;t have anything to complain about. DreamGuy 19:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

given the choice between banishment and inquisition, i choose the former. I agree to your terms. Ungtss 18:04, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You could chose a third option that of being judge by your wikipedia peers for your free willed actions and accepting their judgement. --LexCorp 18:56, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

my "peers" are free to do all the judging they want. the rfc they put up is devoid of any substantive evidence against me that doesn't fall to the doctrine of unclean hands, and fails utterly to demonstrate "failed efforts to resolve the conflict," even 72 hours after its posting, meaning it is in violation of policy. that rfc has nowhere to go. but perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence of how uncivilly i've treated you?

but more importantly, wikipedia is my hobby, not my life. i have better things to do than allow myself to be judged by the likes of schroeder. i've recognized that there is too much systemic bias here for wikipedia to be a valid forum for describing creationism. i'm gonna stop wasting my time, and let you all do as you please. Ungtss 20:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well something should be done about the superstition, vandalism, and censorship of the evolutionists on Misplaced Pages--and what could be a better thing to do about it than for the evolutionists to exorcise another proven witch? 8)) Who will file the RfC to get the fire started? ---Rednblu | Talk 00:59, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

LOL, yeah... Because it's the scientists who always burn witches and not the anti-science religionist types. You might have picked a metaphor that doesn't so immediately display that you are on the wrong side of the argument. "Superstition, vandalism and censorship" is pretty much the standard operating procedure for Ungtss here. All we are trying to do is put an end to highly biased people going through Misplaced Pages and adding their views without any attempt to try to NPOV. Of course when the slightest effort to move the article to a little bit more towards NPOV instead of pure-Creationism dogma happens, the creationists start heaping insults and acting like neutrailty is somehow bias. I haven't seen you on any pages I actively edit, Rednblu, but you are either wholly bamboozled by Ungtss or soming from such a strong bias that your view of what is happening on these pages bears no resemblenmce to reality. DreamGuy 07:43, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

LOL, yeah. The evolutionists in this case are the religionist types. You got it! 8)) ---Rednblu | Talk 14:06, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but then if that clear bias of yours is affecting articles in any way here, it's no wonder other editors are making changes. DreamGuy 14:39, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Ungtss RFC

Joshuaschroeder, I have added evidence and endorsed the summary against Ungtss. I provided some diffs that show the bad faith editing of him and some other things. I hope someone else endorse the summary too.

If this happens not to work, I'll request mediation (which, in my opinion, won't work) as the dispute resolution system points out. If that doesn't work, arbitration will.

Yours, Neigel von Teighen 20:55, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Evolution is not a "fact"?

To take another example, it would be impossible to call "gravity" a fact. One could point to any observation and claim that gravity is the "cause" for the fact rather than the fact itself. However, this isn't the way physicists refer to gravity at all. Rather, gravity is the collection of observations and models that describe said observations that allow for physical predictions. Gravity is a "fact" because it is observed. Likewise with evolution.

Joshuaschroeder 23:14, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• In my arguments with creationists I have not gotten very far in arguing that evolution is fact. 8)) In contrast, I have no problem in getting agreement from the creationists that gravitation is fact. What convinces the creationists about the "fact" of gravitation is the Torsion bar experiment--in the modern versions you can see the laser beam deflect to a greater angle as one mass is moved toward the other! It is dramatically convincing. I have tried to design an equivalent demonstration of evolution, but none of the ideas I have come up with so far have the same inescapable quality of demonstrating evolution as "fact." Let me give you a short list of the designs that do not have the convincing quality of the Torsion bar experiment.
  1. Cancer. Observe the cancer cells mutate and become a different species altogether. <<What is missing from this "demonstration" is mutation to become something "better" that becomes able to fend and multiply for itself in the wild--outside the host. Let's not turn this experiment loose on high-school students I hope!>>
  2. Drosophila mutations and speciation. <<Again the mutations I know about are still Drosophila.>>
  3. Genome comparisons of S. cerevisiae, A. thaliana, C. elegans, D. melanogaster, M. musculus, P. troglodytes, P. paniscus, H. sapiens . . . This would convince me. But it does not have that crucial convincing quality of the Torsion bar experiment--of making the laser beam deflect dramatically to a greater angle when you bring the second mass closer to the first.
  4. So I am still looking for a demonstration of evolution that would have the "watch it happen in real-time" convincing quality of the Torsion bar experiment. 8)) Wish me luck! 8))
• If we had a "watch it happen in real-time" demonstration of evolution, then I think we could claim that evolution is "fact." We could then say, "Look numbskull. Don't you believe your eyes? What you see there has all the qualities of every valuable fact that you see in your everyday life! If you see it happen, what you see is fact. You might balk at agreeing to explanations for what you see--but at least what you see must be fact. You saw what you saw--that is fact."
• Even so, even for the X processes, such as gravitation, for which we have "watch it happen in real-time" demonstrations, it seems to me to be a bad idea to beat somebody over the head with "X is fact." After all, there is something wrong with how we are looking at gravitation--because, if we looked at it right, we likely would see the unified theoretical relationship between gravity and electromagnetism. And somebody will win the Nobel Prize in the future by uniting the field theories of gravity and electromagnetism--by disproving some "fact" that you and I hold today about gravity.
• Since the scientific method is inductive, it is wise for us to play down the conclusion of "THIS is fact." That is, I would much rather have a clear falsifiable hypothesis than I would a master "fact" that explained all the little facts of induction. Let me give you an example. Rather than the master "fact" of F=ma, I would rather have the hypothesis in falsifiable form, such as "To falsify, find some situation in which, applying a constant force to an object over time will produce a steadily decreasing acceleration." For, if I keep formulating falsifiable hypotheses instead of a master "fact" that explains all the little facts of induction, I get clues, such as suggestions about high velocity conditions, for constructing the experiment that will give me the data--the real "facts"--the little facts of induction--that will inform me how to improve my falsifiable hypothesis. Does that make sense?
• I appreciated your essay. And I hope that my reply has made it worth your time to write the probing essay that you left for me. 8)) ---Rednblu | Talk 05:44, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)