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singular they is not grammatically correct when we are referring to a specific individual whom we know of; singular they's refer to people we are not sure of their identity - for example "someone left their car door open". Or, they refer to someone in context of their job ie. "The journalist did not include bias in their report". But in the case of a human individual that we are directly referring to by name, "They" does not make sense. Sure, Misplaced Pages can make whatever rules they want and refer to someone as "they" even though it is grammatically incorrect, but does Misplaced Pages also bow to the wishes of non-cis people who want to be referred to as xe/xem or ze/zir, or doll? Or do the standards stop at they/them? https://pronoun.fandom.com/Dollself - 108.168.8.206 (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
I was simply using that link to prove genders such as "dollself" exist. The rest of my statement was in no relation to that though, so an acknowledgement of the main point of what I was saying would be welcome - the fact that i) singular they is not grammatically correct when referring to a specific, known person, and ii) if Misplaced Pages extends pronoun use to genders outside of he/she/they. 108.168.8.206 (talk) 21:21, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The status of neopronouns on Misplaced Pages is a matter of some debate but to "acknowledge" your first point, you are wrong about the singular they. In the 21st century, RS on grammar accept that the singular they for a known, specific person is, in fact, a feature of English grammar. Newimpartial (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Demi using female pronouns again
On her instagram bio, she added she/her pronouns to the list of preferred pronouns. I think the article should be reverted to gendered pronouns to avoid the confusion that comes with using they/them to refer to a single person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.194.154 (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
What confusion? We use they/them whenever an individual prefers these pronouns to reflect their gender identity, and I haven't seen any confusion. Newimpartial (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
No, "we" don't. It's confusing to every normal person because you don't use plural pronouns for individuals. Don't be disingenous. SneedPoster321 (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
No, it is the website for me. Your insistence on elevating unscientific political ideologies over neutrality is a personal problem, even if you have the numbers to enforce it over the entire site due to the rampant left wing biases of editors and admins. If you expect zero dissent, you will be continually disappointed. SneedPoster321 (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
I see they/them is still their primary pronouns on their bio, I'm not sure if it's intentional the order, but she/her is probably their auxiliary pronoun, meaning singular they is still their preferred pronoun. An alternative is using one/one's, which is not gendered either and a gender omission (useful for people who is nullpronominal/use no pronouns). In the past, I saw Demi put only they/them to their profile, but once they said they don't mind being misgendered as well. Another way to refer to Lovato is using Demi's name. Hope that helps. — Tazuco21:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
Instagram is a unreliable source and should not be used as a source especially on controversial things like pronouns Qwv (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything confusing about using they/them as their primary pronoun. Them adding "she" to their bio essentially means that they don't mind being referred to with she/her pronouns, but that doesn't mean people should just ignore the they/them part of it. I personally see no reason to change the page, especially since it seems that they/them is their primary pronoun still. I say we keep it the way it is unless they come out and say they no longer wish to use they/them. QueerFilmNerd20:37, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree. If they prioritise "they" then we should say "they". If they change this later then we can change the article later. For now, it should stay as it is. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
I personnally don't see a reason NOT to change it. There are more cons to keeping the plurar 'they/them' in the article. The fact is, it DOES cause confusion. When speaking of her with a music band for instance, who are you refering to by saying 'they'? the whole music band or just her? She personnally added the pronouns she/her, the order has not been confirmed to have any sort of significance, nor has she insisted people call her 'they'. The fact is, there is nothing wrong calling her with 'she/her' pronouns, it gives clarity to the article and STILL respects her wishes. Emli89 (talk) 17:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Demi lists they/them first suggesting they are the preferred pronouns (that's what I do myself). There's no reason to move them back. EvergreenFir(talk)17:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
(e-c) One reason not to change it is that there is no reason to change it: they/them are standard pronouns for individuals to choose in English, Demi has in fact chosen they/them, and they have not un-chosen those pronouns by also listing she/her on Instagram. If anything, they/them is *less* confusing to use for a genderqueer person than she/her, in terms of WP:ASTONISH, etc. And, perhaps most importantly, by now most of the Lovato-related RS since the initial pronoun preference was announced use they/them; if that eventually, changes, we can always revisit the usage in this article at that point. Newimpartial (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
There is nothing surprising about refering to a woman with 'she/her', there is nobody on earth who be confused about that lol. Also, there is no proof that the order in which the pronouns are written have any sort of importance, in fact, one could argue that she first changed her mind about the pronouns and listed only 'they/them', and then changed her mind again to add 'she/her' which she just added at the end of the line, as anyone would. The order has not been proven to have importance, and assuming otherwise is making assumptions in Demi's place. What pronouns are her favorite in the list she wrote is not our business. However, ] states that 'Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible' , misusing the pronouns is making the article less clear, more confusing in a variety of scenarios and unnecessary. In that case, the reader has to do his own research in order to confirm who you are refering to ( i.e. the music band or demi?) which also violates the Misplaced Pages:Writing better articles#State the obvious guidelines. This is an article written in formal language, you have to stay concise, prioritise the avoidance of confusion and state clearly the subject of each sentence.
Remember, you should not follow your personnal experiences when deciding how to edit an article Misplaced Pages:Avoiding common mistakes, your judgement on whether the order of pronouns on instagram has any importance at all is not proven. That is your personnal experience, and mine says otherwise.
Take a look at this sentence for example: Lovato's fifth and sixth albums, Confident (2015) and Tell Me You Love Me (2017), infused soul and mature themes; they earned a Grammy Award nomination for Confident, while "Sorry Not Sorry", the lead single from Tell Me You Love Me, became their highest-charting single in the U.S., reaching number six.
It's too long, it is confusing because the use of plural in the sentence makes it so that one has to reread in order to understand what is attributed to which album...
Now look at this one : Lovato has an older full sister named Dallas; a younger maternal half-sister, actress Madison De La Garza; and an older paternal half-sister, Amber, whom they first spoke to when they were twenty years old.
At first glance it is confusing whether 'they' refers to multiple members of the family or just Demi herself. Again, one has to reread it in order to understan clearly the meaning.
Again, look at this : Their mother is of English and Irish descent. They have been vocal about their abusive and strained relationship with their father and once stated, "He was mean, but he wanted to be a good person.
Is 'they' refering to the mother-daughter duo or just Demi ?
There is an extremely long list of such sentences, that are not concise, do not convey meaning in the most direct and simple way. That is not the academic way of writing. Also, Demi has only stated they/them as pronouns, not their. One could argue that their is not appropriate either. Emli89 (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
If you are using your own, apparently limited, literacy in 21st-century English as a basis to argue that the singular they is confusing and should be avoided - well, I'm afraid you're going to need a more convincing argument. The idea that this article, and others using the singular they, are misusing the pronouns is fairly WP:EXTRAORDINARY in 2022 and would require something more than an editor's strongly held personal opinion / private language to back it up. Newimpartial (talk) 18:18, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
This is not a blog, it's an article that has to conform to scientific-style writing, emphasing concise , clear manner of writing. 2022 trends have nothing to do with it and throwing poorly chosen insults at others will not solve this issue or make you more likeable to gen z. The fact is, in order to accomodate this trend the article has been made significantly longer and less clear. The fact that you do not even consider the plenty of examples I have provided is evidence that you strongly bring in your personnal opinions in evaluating constructive criticism. Demi herself has agreed to use of she/her pronouns. Those DO make the article better, and there are no reasons not to make use of it to better the article. Emli89 (talk) 18:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Please read MOS:GENDERID, singular they and preferred pronoun. The use of the singular they in English as a preferred pronoun is by now an established practice, and the arguments that "it is confusing" or "it isn't the grammar I was taught" don't really have any relevance to WP policy or practice. MOS:GENDERID, and WP:V, are what matter in this situation, and both mandate the use of "they" in this article based on the current state of the sources. Newimpartial (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
@Emli89: I really don't see a point in changing her pronouns in the article. It's a lot more than just changing the words in this article, there's dozens of articles on Demi that would need to have a change in pronouns, for a change that in the end is purely cosmetic. If she says she only wants to go by she/her at some point in the future, that would justify the change, but now it's unnecessary. --VersaceSpace🌃18:23, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
You're saying, because it would take too much effort, you won't do it and will refuse to consider any kind of logical argument ? You should have started with that... What's the point of talk pages and guidelines then ?
Those first two examples are fairly long and complex sentences. To be "concise, clear", one might want to break each into two sentences, which would allow using Lovato's name as the subject or at least clarifying the antecedent by talking about one topic at a time. The first example mixes the concepts of themese and charting; the second example mixes a list of identities with some additional details about one of them. DMacks (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Demi, you ain't gonna win this argument. There's more editors 'here', who support the usage of "They/them", than don't. Personally, if it were up to me? We'd be only using the pronouns "He/she" or "Him/her", etc. But, it's not up to me, so you just don't get upset about it & you don't risk getting blocked over it. GoodDay (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2022
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Happy Editing--IAmChaos01:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 01:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)