Misplaced Pages

Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 171.23.129.34 (talk) at 12:55, 23 August 2022 (→The article has a distinct lack of mention and content about ethnic cleansing). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 12:55, 23 August 2022 by 171.23.129.34 (talk) (→The article has a distinct lack of mention and content about ethnic cleansing)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21Auto-archiving period: 3 months 

Template:Vital article

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconGermany: Prussia High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Prussia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconPoland High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconCzech Republic Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Czech Republic, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Czech Republic on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Czech RepublicWikipedia:WikiProject Czech RepublicTemplate:WikiProject Czech RepublicCzech Republic
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconYugoslavia
WikiProject iconFlight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Misplaced Pages coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.YugoslaviaWikipedia:WikiProject YugoslaviaTemplate:WikiProject YugoslaviaYugoslavia
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconRomania
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Romania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Romania-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomaniaWikipedia:WikiProject RomaniaTemplate:WikiProject RomaniaRomania
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
To-do list:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:



Euphemisms?

It's interesting how the article uses language almost euphemistically. "Expulsion" is used in place of where "ethnic cleansing" would be appropriate nearly every single time; Contrast with articles dealing with the Armenian Genocide which use "harsher" language more liberally, so to speak. This article has some major issues. User: Dehler 15:04, 14 January 2020

Expulsion is used when transfered people are guilty, ethnic cleansing when transfered people are innocent. The Sudeten Germans Flocked to Hitler - Herrenvolk und Lebensraum. They were guilty.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.15.218.62 (talk) 07:46, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

There is no such thing as collective guilt. It exists only in propaganda and such language displays inhumane thinking. And maybe you should do a little research on the Sudetendeutsche opposision to the Nazis and their fate. --93.203.105.178 (talk) 14:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Supposing there were enough of them remaining.
You should do a little research on the Sudetendeutsche opposision to the Nazis and their fate in Dachau concentration camp and elsewhere during the Nazi-German occupation of the democratic Czechoslovakia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.23.6.193 (talk) 14:52, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It is claimed that Sudeten Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia were based on the concept of collective guilt. This is not true.
Almost every decree explicitely stated that the sanctions did not apply to anti-fascists.
About 90% of the German population of the Czech borderlands had supported the Nazi and affilation to Nazi-Germany. Some 280 000 Germans in Czechoslovakia remained Czechoslovak citizens after the transfer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.23.6.193 (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Internment

This appears in the Intro: "Many German civilians were sent to internment and labour camps where they were used as forced labour as part of German reparations to countries in eastern Europe." It has a ref which I can't easily check, but my real problem is that it doesn't seem to be a summary of anything in the body of the article. Plenty of use of "internment camp", but just not in this context. I want to move it down into the body somewhere rather than simply delete it, but it really needs expansion then. Thoughts? - Snori (talk) 00:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

The death toll includes post war internment and labour camp deaths, in fact the German sources estimate 150,000 killed in the fighting and the remainder in the post war expulsion process. Internment and forced labor constituted the bulk of the losses.--Woogie 10w (talk) 00:52, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Please become familiar with the facts, guessing will waste our time--Woogie 10w (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

This is a good summary of the figure of 600,000 that is cited by the Deutsches Historisches Museum, Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union#German Federal Archive Report. --Woogie 10w (talk) 01:16, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Between 1944 and 1948 about 31 million people

If we mention the population transfers, we should list also non-German nationalities. The context suggests the refugees were all German more or less.Xx236 (talk) 09:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

A very similar flight and expulstion of Italians is called an exodus (Istrian-Dalmatian exodus) and not mentioned in this text.Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
This is a good idea. Likebeingawesome (talk) 01:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

A road sign

The caption isn't obvious. Reichenbach was Austrian and during WWII German. Danzig was German but a Free City between the wars.Xx236 (talk) 11:01, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

The article has a distinct lack of mention and content about ethnic cleansing

This is an unambiguous case of ethnic cleansing of Germans/German-linked 'undesirables' from large swathes of Europe. The fact the German state of the time was itself a perpetrator of ethnic cleansing shouldn't be used as an excuse to downplay and ignore the obvious in this instance.

I would like to see the accurate description of this episode of ethnic cleansing recognised for what it is, more prominently.

The reasons not to are up there with the same 'rationale' behind downplaying/ignoring other such crimes as the Armenian Genocide, or ironically enough the Holocaust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A005:CA01:91DC:F403:2870:8A9C (talk) 13:02, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source that these events were ethnic cleansing as opposed to expulsion please edit the article accordingly. Independent reliable sources that are explicit will be required.
It meets the definition for ethnic cleansing perfectly, a group of "undesirable" people were removed from a place where they had lived for centuries. Using your logic someone should just put the dictionary definition of ethnic cleansing in the article. The rest of the contents will provide all the proof needed. Likebeingawesome (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Britmax (talk) 15:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

It's a different term for the same thing - "expulsion" is fine.50.111.51.247 (talk) 21:56, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
The general consensus is that the expulsions were regrettable, tragic and often mishandled - yet ultimately justified and for the future good of Europe.2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:E43A:5394:ED49:F1FA (talk) 20:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Please restrain yourself from posting such rubbish - especially without a claim to a Reliable Source (you won't find one) on the issue. 50.111.51.247 (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
There is not such general consensus.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:10, 19 January 2021 (UTC))
They were absolutely unjustified. Likebeingawesome (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

It was ethnic cleansing through and through. It's a good example of the old adage "it's not a war crime if you win". SouthernResidentOrca (talk) 05:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing of Czechs or Sudeten Germans? The conclusions of the Potsdam Conference were confirmed by its signatory states in 1996. The US government, said: "The decisions made at Potsdam ... were soundly based in international law. The conference conclusions have been endorsed many times since in various multilateral and bilateral contexts. ... The conclusions of Potsdam are historical fact and the United States is confident that no country wishes to call them into question". The Allied transfer of Sudeten Germans with Nazi-German citizenship was ultimately justified and for the future good of Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.23.6.193 (talk) 15:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Categories: